Have you ever had doubts about your own experience of speaking in tongues? Have you ever wondered if it was truly God, or just you making up sounds? What about others? Have you ever heard someone speaking in tongues, but doubted that it was the real deal? How do we tell the difference between fake and authentic tongues?
There are two ways we can test the validity of tongues. Both can be used to test the validity of our own personal tongues, while only one can be used to test the validity of others’ tongues.
Scripture teaches us that tongues are genuine languages. They are not meaningless sounds, or ecstatic gibberish. Languages employ a variety of sounds to compose a variety of words. If, when you speak in tongues, you find that you are repeating the same few sounds over and over and over again, it may indicate that you are not truly speaking in tongues. This same criterion can also be used to help us judge whether others’ use of tongues is legitimate or contrived.
Secondly, and more importantly, we learn from Scripture that it is the Spirit who enables us to speak in a new, and unlearned language (Acts 2:4). The words we speak have their origin with God, not man. We do not invent the language, and thus we do not invent the “sounds” that we speak.
In 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 Paul contrasted speaking in tongues with praying in his native tongue, saying the former prayer was with his spirit whereas the latter prayer was with his mind. He made the point that when his spirit prays, his mind is unproductive. This means our minds are not involved in the speaking process. Speaking in tongues is not something we have to think about. Contrast this to our native language. First we think about what we are going to say, and then we say it—in that order. The language of the Spirit, however, is not connected to the mind, but rather ensues from the spirit of man. That means we don’t think about what we are going to say in tongues and then say it, but rather we speak the words in tongues, and then upon hearing what we have spoken we think about the words or sounds we just heard. It is just the opposite of learned speech.
There have been many occasions in prayer in which I found myself thinking about things such as what I was going to do when I was finished praying, all the while speaking in tongues. Shame on me for not having my mind on prayer, but the fact that I could think on one thing while speaking another proves that the mind is not the source of tongues. If you find yourself having to think about what sounds you will speak next, that is a good indication you are not truly speaking in tongues. I hope such is not the case, but it is better to recognize this and seek the true experience than it is to persist in a false belief and experience, mistaking it for the true.
Thinking to Believe 
January 11, 2008 at 3:37 pm
If this is the criteria, then I suspect then that the vast majority of apostolics (in my own little corner of Pentecost) do not speak in “real” tongues, if my experience in listening to others is any guide. So, to take this a step further, does that mean they did not initially receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? And I’m sure we have all had the experience of knowing someone who “speaks in tongues” yet has little other Christian fruit in their lives. And does the scripture actually teach us how to discern between real and fake tongues, or are we left to make deductive conclusions? As you are probably aware, there are other “religions” that have their ecstatic utterances.
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January 11, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Steve,
Would you agree that there are those who fake tongues in the Pentecostal movement, even with the best of intentions? Have you ever heard someone speak in tongues, and thought to yourself, “That does not sound like tongues”? If so, what was your basis for doing so? What was it that made you doubt the authenticity of their tongues?
I have had several experiences like that. And what made me doubt the genuineness of their tongues was the lack of variability in the sounds they made. It was usually 3-4 different sounds, repeated in nearly the same order over and over again: “Lah dee dee oh, lah dee dee oh, lah dee dee oh, lah dee re uh,” etc. Living in CA, and being at an international Bible college, I have had the opportunity to hear a lot of different languages. Some of them hardly sound like languages to me, and I take that into consideration when I judge the genuineness of someone’s tongues. I understand that some languages do not have as much variability as others. But that doesn’t mean they are only a few syllables, and it doesn’t mean they say those same few syllables in the same order over and over again, time and time again. Like I said, if tongues are genuine languages, we would expect for them to sound like it, and that includes variability.
So what if someone’s tongues is limited to a few sounds that they repeat over and over again? Does that mean they do not have the Spirit? Not necessarily. It might be that they received the Spirit initially speaking in tongues, but “lost” the ability to do so. I remember for myself that it was difficult to speak in tongues again after my initial episode. Maybe those people are repeating some of the sounds they remembered making, but doing so through their initiative, not the Spirit’s.
No, Scripture does not tell us how to discern between fake and genuine tongues, but there is a difference, and I think we have a decent (even if subjective) way of telling the difference. Of course, it is easier to tell the difference in our own life than it is in someone else’s life, using the other test I mentioned in the post: order of events. If, when we reflect on the nature of our tongues-speaking, we recognize that we have to think about what we are going to say prior to us saying it, that is a good indication that we are making it up since Paul described tongues as praying with our spirit as opposed to praying with our minds.
While the methods I offered for distinguishing fake from authentic tongues are subjective, and our employment of them does not guarantee the conclusions we come to using those criteria, I think we have to have some criteria for distinguish the real from the fake since the fake exists. Otherwise we may be fooling ourselves, or letting others fool us. This is best criteria I have been able to come up with. Any refinements or additions would be appreciated.
Jason
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January 11, 2008 at 3:52 pm
As with you, I have a concern with the lack of the nuances of language when someone speaks in tongues. Although we could possibly say they are “tongues of angels” it seems to me that on the day of Pentecost known languages were represented and in the other cases it doesn’t say. Another concern is the uniformity of the utterances of many people who speak in tongues — in other words they all seem to sound the same. Maybe “we” have fostered some of this because I have seen at least one or two cases where the speaker just instructed those seeking the Holy Spirit to “stop speaking English.” I think we can, with the best of intentions, psyche someone into believing they have received the Holy Spirit. Even the “see-my-tie-tie-my-tie-who-wants-to-buy-a-Honda” approach of “teaching” tongues has some more nuances of articulation than much of what I hear in others who are “speaking in tongues.” My final concern is the “fruit” test. I have seen many people speak in tongues and then live a pretty carnal life that would not reflect Christ in them.
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January 11, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Steve,
I think some (if not many) people do speak in angelic tongues. But it would seem to me that the same applies to angelic languages that applies to human languages: variability.
I know it happens, but personally I have never heard someone teaching someone how to speak in tongues. Although I have heard some alter workers come close. They will instruct the person to “speak it out”, and then say a few words in tongues themselves, before repeating their command again. From the perspective of the person praying, I think many take that to mean “Repeat what you hear me saying.”
Your concern about fruit is well taken, but I don’t think the presence or lack of fruit is a good indication of the genuineness of one’s tongue. If it were, Paul should have declared the tongues of the Corinthians to be fake! The fact of the matter is that spiritually backslidden people still have the Spirit, and so long as they do, they can still speak in tongues.
Jason
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January 11, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I still think fruit would be a valid test as I doubt all of the Corinthian church was carnal. As with most churches they probably had a representative continuum of spirituality, with some people being extremely carnal, while others were pretty spiritual — and anything in-between.
Paul was constantly looking for evidence of Christ working in a person’s life, so I think we can do the same. As I said, fruit would be a test, but not necessarily the only test of the genuineness of someone’s tongues.
Concerning altar work, I see no NT equivalent of this and think it is more of a 20th century phenomenon (as the whole concept of the altar call itself). Most altar work that I have seen could pass for “teaching” someone how to receive the Holy Spirit rather than letting it happen spontaneously. But that’s another subject… 🙂
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January 11, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I enjoy this post. It is indeed enlightening and comforting for me personally. Too bad I did not have this available to me about two years ago, when I was concerned about my own tongue talking. Whenever I was LED to speak (and this is still the same today), the exact same syallables did not repeat over and over and over. Also, some people told me that since it is a GIFT, I should be able to speak at will at anytime. No sir, no mam, not the case for me. If it did not just happen as the Spirit gave utterance, it did not happen (still the same today). Additionally, my concern was that I did not sound like everyone else. It seemed like all “real” tongue talkers had at least one “aba shata” in the mix. None here. On top of that, my first experience with the desire to have tongues was when the alter worker told me to say “Jesus” over and over again. Well, when my mouth became DRY, and I started to STUTTER because of the DRYNESSS and just being TIRED, she thought it was the Spirit -“I hear it! Your almost there!” -hmpf. (I am holding back laughter, but some of us have experienced these things! – which is why this blog of yours is important)…thankfully genuine manifestation came later that month WITHOUT those tactics. Anyhow, Jason I agree with your reasoning for testing tongues. And like Steve, I too observe the fruit that follows. Although good point about how the genuiness of the tongue should not be based solely on the presence of lack of fruit…yes, I agree, the Corinthians can be a witness to that! These things need to be talked about. Kudos!
Michael
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January 11, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Michael,
If we hold to the doctrine that tongues is the initial manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then it would logically follow that fruit would come later and take some time to produce. The reality is (at least for me) that some fruit can be a lifetime ripening on one’s life, and I would not necessarily look for immediate fruit in the life of someone who had just received the Holy Spirit. However, I think there should be some of the fruit of the Spirit, mentioned in Gal.5, manifest over time. If not, I would wonder about those who are tongue talkers only, with little to no spiritual fruit manifest in their life.
Steve
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January 11, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Steve,
Point taken about the Corinthians. I agree. My only point is that one’s carnality does not speak to the authenticity or inauthenticity of their tongues. One can be carnal and have the Spirit, and thus one can be carnal and speak in tongues.
Yes, Paul was looking for evidence of fruit in people’s life, but that was to determine if they were living as a child of the kingdom, not to determine if their tongues were genuine.
Jason
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January 11, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Michael,
I am glad to hear some of what you said, and saddened by others. Christians do and say the darndest things!
As far as being able to speak in tongues at will, it has been my experience that I can. I can start and stop anytime I want, with our without prayer. I can sing in tongues to the tune of Yankee Doodle if I want. Maybe I’ll make this the topic of a new post.
Jason
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January 11, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I MUST mention something: I said— “On top of that, my first experience with the desire to have tongues —- NO NO NO…I was typing fast and thinking one thing, and missed what I said…I was not seeking tongues – I was seeking to be filled with the Spirit of Christ…yet I knew that tongues was an indicator…that is a topic within itself…anyhow…
Steve,
yes, I do agree with you — good points.
Jason,
your follow up to what Steve mentioned – I agree with that as well, as it seems we are dealing with context? Meaning, we look for the fruit in someone’s life to see if they are following Christ, not if their tongues are valid. You know, to me though, when I consider what Steve was saying, and what you are saying Jason, it all seems related. As Steve mentioned, if one has truly received the Spirit, the fruit will follow over time. Additionally, as you say Jason, Paul’s attn on the fruit was not to validate tongues, but to be proof of faith in Christ…it all seems related, because if the Spirit gave utterance for tongues, the Spirit gives the fruit…they go hand in hand…even if over time… but I do see the different angles in regards to context…
Oh and YES, Jason please do put up a topic concerning speaking in tongues at will – this is something I am not educated on. I am ready to learn!!!
Michael
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January 11, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Michael,
Yes, I agree with you and Steve that the fruit of the Spirit should follow, and develop in the life of those who are filled with the Spirit. But reality is that one’s fruit often falls of the tree because they are not nourishing their tree with prayer and the Word…and yet they are still filled with the Spirit.
Jason
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January 14, 2008 at 11:29 am
I feel the same way. I have heard certain individuals just say “lalalalalalalala” over and over and nothing else. Part of the problem might be ourselves and some people might not have ever spoken in tongues to begin with…
Here is why I say that: One time at a revival service with an evangelist we
were in the middle of alter call. The evangelist asked me about another individual that goes to our church if he has received the Holy Spirit. I said that I think so but I am not sure. I often see him praying with others by getting in their ears, saying “lalalalalalalala” and then instructing “just say it”…..”Just let it out” and this process is repeated. So I then said to the Evangelists that I think this person have been instructed how to speak in tongues too in the same way. To my disappointment the Evangelist said to me “Well it doesn’t matter how they get it as long as they get it”
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January 14, 2008 at 11:39 am
Jevan,
That evangelist doesn’t get it. The question is not HOW they get it, but whether or not they DID get it!
Jason
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January 14, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Jason – you mentioned:
“But reality is that one’s fruit often falls of the tree because they are not nourishing their tree with prayer and the Word…and yet they are still filled with the Spirit.”
yes Jason, I do agree!
This prompts me to ask a question(s) -when you mention fruit that falls off the tree: it would be crucial to know if the fruit that fell was either good or bad, correct? A tree produces fruit (either good or bad), and then it is possible that the fruit begins to fall off the tree…
If someone speaks in tongues, but yet they had bad fruit that fell, would that help to determine if their tongues are of God or not?
Yet if someone speaks in tongues, but yet they had good fruit that fell, would that be confirmation that one can lack in being consistent and perfected in the character of the Spirit, but yet still be filled with the Spirit?
Oh but now I am thinking – fruit falling off the tree would mean that the individual begins to progressively cease from portraying the characteristics of the fruit that was produced…I can see that with the good fruit (someone produces good fruit, but fell away of sorts)…but what about the bad/evil fruit that fell? Would that mean they are no longer “being bad” perse, and can now become good and be filled with the Spirit?
Am I going too far with the “falling of the fruit?” LOL
Jason, I do understand the overall concept in a sense, about not being consistent with the characteristics of the Spirit, but yet still being filled (which is why I agreed), but what did you mean explicitly with the falling of the fruit?
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January 15, 2008 at 11:16 am
Michael,
It was only an analogy, so I wouldn’t try to get more mileage out of it than a Prius. Ha! My analogy of falling fruit was to say that at one time their tree was producing fruit, but no longer. The fruit that was there has died because the spiritual nourishment that was keeping it attached to the tree has been cut off.
I think one can resist the working of the Spirit and yet remain filled with the Spirit, and speak in genuine tongues. I just don’t see how one’s works reflects the genuineness of their tongues, unless one is of the opinion that a backslider loses the Spirit when they backslide (and hence, their tongues must be fake). I am not of that opinion.
Jason
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January 15, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Exactly….here is another question. Are we too performance oriented? I mean, are we so desperate for someone to get it at our alters that this kind of fakery is allowed and even promoted?
Were you at Asuza for the “Evangelistic Service”? It’s been said the numbers were bloated and that a lot of people were coached on tongues. Honestly I have seen people say “Hallellalalalala, just say it, lalalala, just let it out” that I was sure the seeker really did just that.
They were so obedient and so confused that they just repeated what they heard or “tripped over the Ls” in Halleluyah. I’ve looked at these people and they just did not look like they believed anything just happened nor do they return.
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January 15, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Jevan,
Yes, I think our orientation toward results (measured in numbers) is what causes this fakery, and allows it to go unchecked for the most part. Personally, I have never seen anyone question another person’s tongues. It’s as if it is considered off-limits to do such a thing. But why? Fakes exist, and if this may be an instance of one, let’s investigate.
Are you referring to the night Jeff Morgan preached? If so, I was there. I also thought the numbers were hugely inflated. If you are right, now I know why.
Jason
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January 16, 2008 at 10:24 am
The syllables that make up instances of glossolalia typically appear to be unpatterned reorganizations of phonemes from the primary language of the person uttering the syllables; thus, the glossolalia of people from Russia, the United Kingdom, and Brazil all sound quite different from each other, but vaguely resemble the Russian, English, and Portuguese languages, respectively. Many linguists generally regard most glossolalia as lacking any identifiable semantics, syntax, or morphology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
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January 16, 2008 at 11:02 am
Arthur,
In these studies, were the subjects producing glossolalia as the Spirit of Christ gave utterance, or were they under the influence of themselves or another spirit(s)?
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January 16, 2008 at 11:27 am
Arthur,
As for investigations of tongues, I have read of conflicting conclusions. The NY Times reported (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10712FB3A5B0C748CDDA80994DE404482) the work of neuroscientists from the University of Pennsylvania who concluded that those who speak in tongues are fully conscious, but are not using the part of the brain connected with active willing/thought and speech. It confirmed the experience as described by tongues-speakers: it is not something we think about. So the neuroscientific evidence seems to confirm what many of us already know by experience.
But what about the philological ascpet of this. You mentioned how some researchers discovered that the phonemes of one’s tongue tends to follow the phonemes of one’s native language. A phoneme is just a sound. I don’t find this amazing. There are about 125 different sounds the human mouth can make for language. Most languages only use about 25-30 of them. Different languages may use entirely different sets of sounds. Take for instance, Hebrew. It is a very gutteral language (sounds made deep in the throat). It is practically impossible for a native English speaker to pronounce many of the Hebrew sounds because our mouth has never been trained to do so. It is almost physically impossible for us. Our mouths are used to making certain types of sounds. So it would not surprise me if the tongues people speak in tend to have most of the same sounds their mouth is used to making based on their native language.
Jason
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January 16, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Jason,
lol @the mileage of the analogy! haha- gotcha man! I am back on track with what you were saying…
Arthur – just fyi, the reason why I asked if the subjects were speaking as the Spirit gave utterance or were they speaking of their own or another spirit: I asked because I know of someone who used those same studies to “prove” a negative perception about tongues — that its all gibberish, not of God, fake, etc etc…but my question is, who were these subjects? Were they truly speaking through the power of the Spirit of Christ? Or was something else going on? How credible can the tests be if the subjects potentially are not even filled with the Spirit of God? But then again, I am thinking the studies were not coming from that angle…I doubt the researchers wanted to “test the Spirit of the Lord” (pun intended)…but with that said, should we even consider these tests as evidence to prove or disprove the validity of tongues we hear today? Tongues meaning those that we talk about in accordance to the Christian life (“speaking in other tongues”)
argh- sidenote – someone just burned popcorn in the kitchen AGAIN and the smell is flooding my office…why do they continually do this…I should go rebuke them…in other tongues…without interpretation…and walk away smiling knowingly…or unknowlingly rather because I wont know what I said either…*shrugs*
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January 16, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Michael asks:
Arthur – just fyi, the reason why I asked if the subjects were speaking as the Spirit gave utterance or were they speaking of their own or another spirit: I asked because I know of someone who used those same studies to “prove” a negative perception about tongues — that its all gibberish, not of God, fake, etc etc…but my question is, who were these subjects?
I would simply assume they are pentecostals. Are you suggesting that the principals of the study would bring in non-pentecostals, ask them to “speak in tongues,” and then claim then conclude (correctly) that the gibberish isn’t tongues?
Were they truly speaking through the power of the Spirit of Christ? Or was something else going on? How credible can the tests be if the subjects potentially are not even filled with the Spirit of God?
All persons speaking in tongues are, from the perspective of the person taking the study, “potentially not even filled with the Spirit of God.” This sounds to me like the “no true Scottsman” argument. We’re talking about an alleged miracle that is happening every single day, and it’s one that can be tested quite easily. If even 5% of the people speaking in tongues are legitimate, it’s an easily proven miracle. But if they can’t find any real pentecostals or real tongues, that says something, no?
should we even consider these tests as evidence to prove or disprove the validity of tongues we hear today? Tongues meaning those that we talk about in accordance to the Christian life (“speaking in other tongues”)
I think so. If it can be shown that the tongues are not a foreign language (known or unknown), but simply making sounds from one’s own language or mocking sounds from familiar foreign languages (eg, English speakers trilling the R like Spanish speakers), why would that not be significant?
Arthur
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January 16, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Jason writes:
As for investigations of tongues, I have read of conflicting conclusions. The NY Times reported the work of neuroscientists from the University of Pennsylvania who concluded that those who speak in tongues are fully conscious, but are not using the part of the brain connected with active willing/thought and speech.
I don’t dispute that finding. That shows that tongues-speakers are not consciously choosing the sounds as they speak. But whether it’s meaningless babble or the Spirit speaking when that part of the brain shuts off, that’s the question.
Arthur
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January 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Arthur,
Right. It shows they are not consciously making the sounds up. But what sounds can come out of your mouth without you consciously thinking of them? You can’t even make nonsensical babbling sounds without thinking about it. That demonstrates that the sounds people are making in tongues are coming from somewhere besides their willing mind; i.e. they are not making it up. It is real.
Jason
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January 16, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Jason,
Your NYT link says this:
Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five women while they spoke in tongues and found that their frontal lobes — the thinking, willful part of the brain through which people control what they do — were relatively quiet, as were the language centers. The regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were active. The women were not in blind trances, and it was unclear which region was driving the behavior.
You write:
You can’t even make nonsensical babbling sounds without thinking about it. That demonstrates that the sounds people are making in tongues are coming from somewhere besides their willing mind; i.e. they are not making it up. It is real.
But a “relatively quiet” frontal lobe would not prevent a person a person from making babbling sounds. For example, in the case of lobotomies, people are able to continue making sounds. Rosemary Kennedy’s lobotomy “reduced Rosemary to an infantile mentality including incontinence. Her verbal skills were reduced to unintelligible babble.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy
Arthur
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January 16, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Arthur,
You are highlighting the fact that the frontal lobe is said to be “relatively quiet”, but pass over the fact that the researchers said it was unclear as to which region of the brain was driving the speech. If a relatively quiet frontal lobe was able to do so, it would not be unclear, but clear.
I don’t doubt that people with lobotomies can’t speak well afterward, but that is a problem of someone trying to speak normally who can’t. They are still trying/willing to do so, however. That is not the case with tongues. People who speak in tongues are not trying to speak and it comes out nonsensical because of brain damage.
Jason
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January 17, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Jason,
You wrote:
“Yes, I think our orientation toward results (measured in numbers) is what causes this fakery, and allows it to go unchecked for the most part. Personally, I have never seen anyone question another person’s tongues. It’s as if it is considered off-limits to do such a thing.”
I agree with you, but can you imagine the kind of hullabaloo that would result if we started questioning whether people’s tongues were real? It’s like you wrote in another post where people consider tongues to be “sacred” and looked at you like you were crazy when you wanted to record them. As a side note, I believe there was some research done in the 1960’s on this which was reported in a book “They Speak With Other Tongues.”
As far as the accuracy of claims for those who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues, consider this: A few years ago, a [former] national UPC figure said the way they determine how many children receive the Holy Ghost in a crusade service is to ask all the children who spoke in a language they didn’t understand to raise their hands. They then counted all the hands and divided by two and that’s what they published for “results.” Obviously that has no statistical significance.
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January 17, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Steve,
Of course, I’m not suggesting we put everyone on trial to see whether their tongues are genuine! This is more of an informal, personal test we can use to help those we have good reason to believe are not genuinely speaking in tongues. After all, given the number of alter workers who use poor tactics to get people to speak in tongues (such as saying, “Say halleleulaalaalaalaa”), surely there are a number of people who were told they spoke in tongues that really didn’t.
I’m trying to draw awareness to this fact. I am hoping that we can talk with those people. Some of them know it’s not the real deal, but don’t want to disappoint the people who proclaimed that “they got it.” Talking to them may relieve them of the burden, and help them receive the real thing.
Besides, I think all of have doubted the veracity of certain people’s tongues at some point or another. And I think the reason we did so were the very reasons that we have been discussing here. I’m just drawing attention to it.
Jason
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January 21, 2008 at 10:37 am
Arhtur,
I am a little late, sorry!
Arthur you asked me:
“Are you suggesting that the principals of the study would bring in non-pentecostals, ask them to “speak in tongues,” and then claim then conclude (correctly) that the gibberish isn’t tongues?”
No I was not suggesting that at all. I was just wondering if those people that they studied (regardless of titles such as “pentecostals”), if the subjects were truly speaking as the Spirit gave utterance. What if they studied someone or mulitiple people who really were NOT speaking as the Spirit gave utterance? That would corrupt the results…that is all I was thinking…
Arthur, you mentioned about the “no true Scottsman” argument. I am not familiar with that.
Arthur you mentioned: “If even 5% of the people speaking in tongues are legitimate, it’s an easily proven miracle. But if they can’t find any real pentecostals or real tongues, that says something, no?”
Yes, IF that were the case, I agree that could mean MULTIPLE things…
Arthur you mentioned: “I think so. If it can be shown that the tongues are not a foreign language (known or unknown), but simply making sounds from one’s own language or mocking sounds from familiar foreign languages (eg, English speakers trilling the R like Spanish speakers), why would that not be significant?”
Well, I see your point, but I am just a little cautious of conclusivley validating the work of the Spirit of Christ (error free) with the testing of man’s devices (error prone)—I mean of course I believe we can have some credible results to a certain extent, but I would not look for any “test” to prove that tongues are NOT languages (known or unknown) when the authoratative bible clearly says they are.
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May 23, 2012 at 11:25 am
Thank you for this simple two step test, I know it’s not an end all, however its a start!
I’m reading over and over again in comments here about the gift of tongues being evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit and receiving Christ’s spirit… Umm imho …it’s not the only evidence and ALL who accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour receive His spirit. Simple! It’s us humans that make it complicated! I suggest reading Neil T Andersons work, puts it all into perspective, who we are in Christ.
May Christ reveal His truth to all of you who seek it,
God bless you!
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January 5, 2013 at 12:40 pm
To say you are thinking about something while praying in tongues is not a definite way to prove anything on this mater. I can be typing this and thinking about something else easily. I can speak with somebody and think about a different topic at any time. Not everybody may posses this sane ability to do one task while thinking of something else. Regardless, that is a poor example to use to convince people they may posses a supernatural gift. Many like myself may be seeking info on this being a real gift and you are trying to prove it, literally, off the top of your head. Please do more research before conclusions are made. We all need more accurate and confounding spiritual guidance than mere opinions. Thank you.
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January 7, 2013 at 11:07 pm
Michael,
We are dealing with subjective experiences, so “proof” is not exactly what I am trading in here. But let me be clear on what I was saying. It’s not the mere ability to be able to think about some non-Y while doing Y, but the fact that one does not need to think about Y in order to do Y. If one is truly speaking in tongues, what they are saying is not being decided by their own volition, but God’s volition. We would expect then, that when it comes to tongues, we would not be thinking about what to say before we say it, but rather thinking about what was said after we said it. And that has been my experience with tongues. I think that if one finds themselves having to concentrate on what to say in tongues, that this is good reason to believe that they are not experiencing the real deal.
Jason
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January 29, 2013 at 4:50 am
Hi
Very interesting comments on how to test ourselves if we are actually speaking as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.
With others it not so easy but if we repeat the same thing over and over again I begin to wonder.
I knew a church leader who spoke the same thing in” tongues” over and over again so much so that my children could repeat it. It was the same words he used for 5 years or more.
They were “Key abi ba skin de ali ba yande” and thats all he ever said and he was a leader in the chuch for years He used the same words if it was in leading worship, praying over people or in a prayer meeting.
I was disturbed in my spirit as if it really was of God why the same words all and every time for every situaltion.
He used to say “Lets all speak out in tongues” and would just use the same words week after week month ofter month and speak nothing else.Ive nothing against the whole church speaking out together but for the leader to use the same words all the time gives me much concern.
Ive no idea what I say. Perhaps I need to record it and listen to it!!
I can understand our spirit praying but surley it must have other things to express rather than “Key abi ba skin de ali ba yande” all the time.
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March 23, 2013 at 11:04 pm
Whose the authority on this???? GOD almighty, NOT men. Exhort one another…. Don’t attack your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!:) in Jesus name!
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March 23, 2013 at 11:25 pm
Katie,
Who is attacking anyone? All I/we have done is question the validity of certain people’s tongue-speaking, and given specific grounds for doing so. If anything, you have come off as attacking those who question the validity of some people’s tongue-speaking.
Pretending to experience the Spirit is a big deal. If someone is not truly speaking in tongues, but making it up, then they are faking the moving the Spirit. That should be a legitimate concern, in the same way we would be concerned if people were pretending to be healed but were not in fact healed.
Jason
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March 24, 2013 at 1:51 am
We told to test the spirits so its not a bad thing to check if someone is making it up.
I knew of a pastor or a church who spoke the same few words “key aliba skindi aliba yandi” all the time when leading the service. That’s all he ever said if it was praying over folk or in worship. It’s all he ever said for over 5 years or more.
I question if that was ever right. Even my kids could repeat what he said.
I do not doubly the reality of tongues but I do wonder at the very repetitive nature and very Un language sounds made.
Martyn
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March 25, 2013 at 8:54 am
Hi
Have just put a comment similar to one I have made before as did not realise it the same thread.
I am not seeking to question speaking in tongues but to try and understand why some people say the same over and over again. Paul talked about speaking mysteries with the spirit which I am sure sure is more than a few words repeated week after week month after month and year after year.
At church on Sunday one the elders often says ” corsa corsa shall a sander” and he has been saying the same for years.
I think if a baby learning to talk only said the same few words year after year we would be very worried at its development.
I am just trying to be real
The problem is when tongues are spoken the same over and over some in the congregation copy it. I have heard some say “shall a sander” exactly as our elder.
Please can someone help me as its doing my head in!!
Martyn
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March 28, 2013 at 1:05 pm
I believe that I speak in tongues when I pray to God. I usually pray to him but when I run out of words I start my mouth going just but muttering a few things and then BAM! I start speaking is this rap succession. I can’t speak that fast. Its like light speed and there is rarely ever a reapeating sound like a chant. I would love to hear myself pray this way but my mind is completely focused on God while my mouth is on auto pilot. Would it be or blasphemous to record this language. I can tell you this is no language I have ever heard. For this reason I know the Holy Spirit is working inside of me. Usually when I am done praying I have to consciously unplug my prayer and when I will stop. Also I speak so fast with no pauses except to take a breath and while I am breathing I am aware but just keep praying. I don’t have the creativity to make a language this complex. It makes me feel amazing knowing God is working inside of me. God Bless!
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March 29, 2013 at 9:32 am
Very interesting comment. Sounds like the real thing rather than the repetitive stuff I have come across
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March 31, 2013 at 5:04 pm
i fell emotinal to become a pastor deos it mean god have called me
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April 10, 2013 at 1:12 am
I have been truely blessed this morning… you know I was begining to question the tongues I spoke. (though I know deep within that its genuie) but after reading through am satisfied.
There is this other way. that I hv onced tested the authencity of tongues and I’ll just share it. about a year ago I was conducting prayers and some people got ‘baptised and spoke in tongues’ but there was this lady as she spoke i became concerned, to cut the whole thing short. I told her that i wanted to test the spirit speaking through and she agreed. So as she started praying in tongues i said some thing like this “u spirit i charge in whos name do you speak” and she said JESUS. Still i wasnt satisfied so i asked something like this “which JESUS? Ist the one who came in the flesh. And died and after three days rose from the dead ” at this point the lady started insulting using words you would never xpect from a christian…. Well in this case we werent testing the authencity (weather she was making it up. Bcos it sounded divine) we were testing the spirit… Israel on
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April 10, 2013 at 1:19 am
as some suggested ealiar on. do you think its alright to record your prayer. because I wasnt to hear what I say when I pray in tongues
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April 27, 2013 at 9:45 am
Be careful what you say about speaking in tongues.Only God knows the heart and the mind.When I speak in tongues I am so caught up into the presence of God I have no idea what is going on around me or where I am.I lose all sense of time.I stay fully focused on God not man until He is through with me.I received the Holy Ghost when I was 16yrs. old,I am now 66yrs. old and praise God I know by His assurance that He is real in my life.The Holy Ghost does the groaning when we are praying not us.I am not concerned what others think of how I sound when the Holy Ghost is speaking through me.it is not up to man to judge our the Holy Ghost sounds.So be careful you do not tread on dangerous ground and blasphem the Holy Ghost where there is no forgiveness.
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April 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Your correct but we are advised to test the spirits.
Constant repeating of a few words is hardly in line with Paul speaking 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.
I know of a pastor who used to go to Africa and observed that often the Africans would copy those from the West and use English sounding words.
All for tongues but let it be real
Martyn
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June 2, 2013 at 8:57 pm
I’m going to share this experience with you guys. We had this prayer every Saturday evening and when we were in our prayer mode, most of my churchmates was kinda inviting the Holy Spirit in them by chanting,singing,praising God and then one woman started to “speak in tongues”. So I thought to myself that she was really filled by the Holy Spirit. But when another woman who was our Pastors Wife who can see visions, just started to pray and she said she saw a black thing on the woman who “speak in tongues”. According to her, the woman’s speaking in tongues was of flesh and fake. That woman got a big rebuke from our Pastors because of that fake thing. The lesson is no matter how we act so holy there will always be people who can discern our hearts. We cannot lie to ourselves and of course to God.
Cheeny 🙂
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June 6, 2013 at 8:11 pm
Jason,
Wow!! This topic sure got a lot of mileage, didn’t it?
I remember my first experience in “speaking in tongues,” I had been praying for years (cus I was Pentecostal in belief) and “speaking in tongues” was the right of passage to a higher level of spirituality (or so I thought). When it happened, I had been a believer for 40 years, (as I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 10 years old.)
Anyway, back to my experience, I was driving in the car, as I had a long commutes and I would spend time having what I called, Jesus talks. I would think of Him seated beside me and we would talk. This day as I was about 5 miles from home, when I started speaking this language, whatever was happening was so very emotional, and caused tears to flow and flow, which went on for hours. I still feel like some of those same words are repeated today when I “speak in tongues”, with some variation, and I do tend to repeat them over and over.
But, here is my question for you Jason: Is there a difference of tongues in our “prayer language” vs. “speaking in tongues” as in the service to edify someone who speaks a language, or to encourage the church, etc.
I may not fit your criteria as laid out above, but I know I have the Spirit, because I am a perceiver, one who knows things about people, and for years I thought everyone was the same as me. Then, one day, my husband explained to me that I was different, (and gifted?), but I couldn’t find what was happening to me in the Bible. I eventually was led to a ministry that explained that this gift is in the Bible, and that very few people have this gift, it is a hard gift, as anyone who has it will tell you, but that is a whole other topic.
P.S. For the gramatically challenged, the words “altar” and “alter” are two very different words, with different meanings. I will leave it at that, as I noticed several times the word alter was used when the people were talking of the church altar.
Blessings to you…and a hug. Keep up the meaningful discussions (not judgements.)
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June 6, 2013 at 11:46 pm
Hi Deb,
I don’t see any Biblical basis for distinguishing the two. Tongues is singular thing (the supernatural ability to speak a language you have not learned through human means), but that singular thing has multiple purposes. We see in Scripture that it can be used to edify ourselves (quote-unquote, prayer language), as well as edify others when it is accompanied by the gift of interpretation of tongues. And there may be some occasions on which someone is speaking in tongues, and someone nearby knows the language they are speaking in (as in Acts 2).
Jason
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June 7, 2013 at 11:51 pm
So glad i found this thread. I was very recently filled with the Holy Spirit- the experience was so amazing and real. I felt so warm, especially the top of my head and i felt this energy coming through the top of my head and fill my body. I was told to say a word repeatedly and focus on Jesus. Then what i experienced was my tongue speaking/moving on its own, i dont even remeber what words i were saying and if i was repetitive. i was so filled with emotion during this experience that i was crying while i was pouring out my heart to God. And afteward, i felt so at peace. I havent been able to have that same experience again and was told that i need to speak in tongues on purpose rather than have that same experience. Now, when i try only a few words come out and i repeat them over and over. I want to have the gift of speaking in tongues and i want it to be genuine. So, if i dont have the gift how do i recieve it and how do i now if i have got it, is my question?
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June 11, 2013 at 10:57 am
Tally,
God gives the gift according to His will, so there is no pathway I can outline to receive it because we have no control over His gift. But I can say I don’t think the way we receive it is to start repeating a word or two over and over again. There is no Biblical basis for that. God doesn’t need help. When he gives you this gift, you will not be able to stop it.
Jason
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June 11, 2013 at 3:46 pm
Jason, on studying this dilemma of tongues and the word “glossa”, it is said that that word in the Greek refers to an earthly language, natural to humans (from where we get the word glossary), in other words a different vocabulary. In my research of 1 Cor 14, I came across an explanation from a Pastor Boone, that at that time in Corinth, they were competing amongst themselves in the congregation as to how many different languages one could speak, and Paul was warning them (pride) that the “gift of tongues” (comprehending other earthly languages) was for the unbelievers, but prophesy was for believers. Also, it was stated that women were NEVER to speak in delivering or translating this gift, but I can find no biblical reference to this, other than women were not to speak in church (due to women being in the balcony or back of the synagogue and yelling at their husbands questions) and the fact in that era women were less than dogs, and could not be believed.
So, do you agree with this definition of “tongues”, and if so, how and why has the church today gotten so far off base? When did the practice of saying “she bought a Honda” come from, in order to release “tongues”? I’ve noticed in meetings when people are told to praise God in their “tongue” that some words sound very similar or are, even in groups where there is a large representation of many churches, so are we all demonized? Or have tongues actually ceased, and we are just desperately trying to hang on to something? Thanks, you must be one busy person to keep up with all these. Grace, blessings and hope to you and yours. Deb Ps. 121
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June 11, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Tongues is the word for tongue and language. The language is always unknown to the speaker, but may be known to the hearers (as was the case in Acts 2). But Paul speaks of tongues of both men and angels in 1 Cor 13, so it appears that one could speak in either an earthly or heavenly language when speaking in tongues.
As for Corinth, that info you read is bogus. There is nothing to indicate that they were competing for how many languages they could speak in. Besides, the languages would be unknown to them. And you are right about women. It never says that women should not speak in tongues or interpret tongues.
The part about women not speaking in church is also not correct. There is absolutely no evidence that the synagogues in the first century had a men’s section and a women’s section. Paul’s concern is not one regarding being loud, but about who should be discussing doctrinal matters. And in Paul’s view (as we see in 1 Tim 2), dotrine was only the domain of men since they were the spiritual leaders. The women could learn doctrine too, but at home from their husbands and fathers.
Anybody telling you to repeat some phrase to “release tongues” is feeding you a line of balgona. It’s sad that this stuff goes on.
Jason
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June 11, 2013 at 4:41 pm
Thank you very much Jason for that clarification.
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June 25, 2013 at 6:14 am
All very interesting but in Acts 2 all the devout Jews from different nations heard them speak in their own language and they understood that they were declaring the great thing of God. That must have been very powerful.
But today all we hear is odd sounding words and phrases that are repeated over and over again that does not seem to have any conviction at all.
In our multicultural society in the UK surely it would be much more convicing if al least someone spoke in French, Spanish, Polish Lithuanian Danish, Russian, Portuges, Itanlian, Japanise, Arabic etc. That would be very powerful in church or even our own testimony.
The problem I have is thats its very easy to make up tongues. Someone on this thread made comment on speaking “she came on a honda” If you say it with an accent it sounds very convincing but all you are saying is “she came on a honda” If you say “She came on a hyunda, hyunda she came on” that can also sounds good! Try it in church as see if anyone notices.
But according to the Bible the tongues were known languages which unless you have learnt them you cannot fake it.
Even the linguists who study languages cannot often identify the language of toungues as known language.
In Africa some of the local Christians copy the words of the English visitors as I have been there to hear it in Ghana.
I long to be able to speak a known language that someone can identify. Thats what they did in the Bible and anything less we fall short.
I am all for tounges but if we had what they had in the Bible we would not get the critics as they would have no answer but it seems we do not have what they had so what have we got???
Please can any one help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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July 24, 2013 at 8:27 pm
can any one speak in toungues in the mind
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July 24, 2013 at 9:47 pm
What an interetsing question…… Well i attempted to after reading this question but found it very difficult- so for me its no. I am still puzzled and torn about tongues. When i speak in tongues, my mind can wander to other things like it said in the post, so does this confirm that i have been gifted? I can speak in tongues and my mind can think (My mind is often questioning my tongue speaking)- phrases like ‘your being a bit repetitive’ for example, with that said they are the words i am given to speak, i dont try to think of words or add words to what i am speaking to extend my vocabulary, I let whatever comes out, come out, without thinking about it. Is this the real deal?
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September 28, 2013 at 4:19 pm
EVERYTHING here says this another Language!
NOT This Babel that going on!
1Co_12:28 And Elohim has appointed these in the assembly: firstly emissaries, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, ministrations, kinds of tongues.
1Co_13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of messengers, but do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co_14:2 For he who is speaking in a tongue does not speak to men but to Elohim, for no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks secrets.
1Co_14:4 He who is speaking in a tongue builds up himself, but he who is prophesying builds up the assembly.
1Co_14:13 Therefore, he who is speaking in a tongue, let him pray that he might interpret.
1Co_14:14 For if I am praying in a tongue, my spirit is praying, but my understanding is without fruit.
1Co_14:19 but in an assembly I wish to speak five words with my understanding that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1Co_14:26 What then is it, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all be done for upbuilding.
1Co_14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
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September 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm
EVERYTHING here says this is another Language!
“Cretans and Araḇs, we hear them speaking in our own tongues
Act_2:3 And there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and settled on each one of them.
Act_2:4 And they were all filled with the Set-apart Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them to speak.
Act_2:11 “Cretans and Araḇs, we hear them speaking in our own tongues the great deeds of Elohim.”
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October 1, 2013 at 10:06 am
Like Jason Dulle’s experience, I have never seen anyone question another person’s tongues, either. It is indeed considered off-limits to do such a thing. I have often wondered why and I’m happy to see I’m not the only one.
I can speak in tongues, but when I do, it’s me, NOT the Holy Ghost. When I first heard someone speak in tongues (in 2003), I simply started to repeat what I heard. I always have to concentrate. Unlike myself, those disciples having been baptised in the HG back then, had never heard anyone speak in tongues before. Had I never heard anyone speak in tongues, I would personally never have started it. I’m all for tongues, but let it be real.
I am a huge fan of books of Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake and it’s very interesting and inspiring to see what they say about tongues and the baptism of the HG. In “Ever Increasing Faith”, Wigglesworth says the following:
—
I remember a man getting up and saying, “You know, brothers and sisters, I was here three weeks and then the Lord baptized me with the Holy Ghost and I began to speak with other tongues.” I said, “Let us hear it. That’s what I’m here for.” But he would not talk in tongues. I was doing what others are doing today, confusing the 12th of 1 Corinthians with the 2nd of Acts. These two chapters deal with different things, one with the gifts of the Spirit, and the other with the Baptism of the Spirit with the accompanying sign. I did not understand this and so I said to the man, “Let’s hear you speak in tongues.” But he could not. He had not received the “gift” of tongues, but the Baptism.
As the days passed I became more and more hungry. I had opposed the meetings so much, but the Lord was gracious, and I shall ever remember that last day — the day I was to leave. God was with me so much that last night. They were to have a meeting and I went, but I could not rest. I went to the Vicarage, and there in the library I said to Mrs. Boddy, “I cannot rest any longer, I must have these tongues.” She replied, “Brother Wigglesworth, it is not the tongues you need but the Baptism. If you will allow God to baptize you, the other will be all right.” “My dear sister, I know I am baptized,” I said. “You know that I have to leave here at 4 o’clock. Please lay hands on me that I may receive the tongues.” She rose up and laid her hands on me and the fire fell. I said, “The fire’s falling.” Then came a persistent knock at the door, and she had to go out. That was the best thing that could have happened, for I was ALONE WITH GOD. Then He gave me a revelation. Oh, it was wonderful! He showed me an empty cross and Jesus glorified. I do thank God that the cross is empty, that Christ is no more on the cross. It was there that He bore the curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.” He became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him, and now, there He is in the glory. Then I saw that God had purified me. It seemed that God gave me a new vision, and I saw a perfect being within me with mouth open, saying, “Clean! Clean! Clean!” When I began to repeat it I found myself speaking in other tongues. The joy was so great that when I came to utter it my tongue failed, and I began to worship God in other tongues as the Spirit gave me utterance. It was all as beautiful and peaceful as when Jesus said, “Peace, be still!” and the tranquility of that moment and the joy surpassed anything I had ever known up to that moment.
As soon as I got home, my boy came running up to me and said, “Father, have you received the Holy Ghost?” I said, “Yes, my boy.” He said, “Let’s hear you speak in tongues.” But I could not. Why? I had received the Baptism in the Spirit with the speaking in tongues as the Bible evidence according to Acts 2:4, and had not received the gift of Tongues according to 1 Corinthians 12. I had received the Giver of all gifts. At some time later when I was helping some souls to seek and receive the Baptism of the Spirit, God gave me the gift of Tongues so that I could speak at any time. I could speak, but will not — no never! I must allow the Holy Ghost to use the gift. It should be so, so that we shall have divine utterances only by the Spirit. I would be very sorry to use a gift, but the Giver has all power to use the whole nine gifts.
—
As a dutch pentecostal I’ve been trying to serve, love, seek and obey Christ for the past couple of years and many of my brothers and sisters – who claim they speak in tongues – have said I’m very fruitful and a great example. However, I have NOT been baptised in the HG, I’m 100% certain of that. But when I tell them that, they don’t believe me. They will argue and say I speak in tongues. I continue to hope, pray and fast that God will baptise me in the HG, one day, so that others will see what it REALLY is. When John G. Lake talks about rebirth, sanctification and the baptism in the HG, he says sanctification (at least to a large extent) precedes the baptism. So I will not give up and I’m fasting as we speak.
Danny
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October 1, 2013 at 3:52 pm
Thank you Danny for your reply. I too am a follower of Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth Edder, and John G. Lakes (whose ministry has now been handed over to Curry Blake) and I have been studying other web sites, such as the Bible Hub for different Commentaries and Sermons addressing tongues. I have come to the conclusion that “ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and the door shall be opened unto you”. If we sincerely want it, and/ or through the laying on of hands, the baptism will be obtained, and believe me, you will know it when it happens, simply let it.
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October 5, 2013 at 9:13 am
Honestly, I don’t speak in tongues, & 99% of what I hear is something I could repeat, easily. It’s always the same phrases over & over & over again. & with some it’s the same sound (tatatatata). I could fake it to appease people, but that ain’t me, & I don’t see any extra power in the lives of those who speak in tongues, as they claim it does for them. I know it’s real, but there’s only been one time I was convinced it was for sure real.
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October 10, 2013 at 1:39 am
So if those who do speak in other languages how come its never seems to be in a language that anyone recognizes? Not the actual interpretation but in the Uk you can usually identify a language even if you cannot speak it.
I can usually recognize french or german or italian even if I dont speak the language but when ever anyone speaks in a (tongue) language no one ever recognizes it yet in Acts 2 people did recognize it.
If its just a language and I copy what someone says am I speaking in another language? Would it be valid?
I am just trying to be real. Does it bother anyone else that modern day tongues never seems to be a flowing language that we recognise even if we do not speak it? Its always repeated over and over again and when its interpreted its never the same interpretation. Does not that strike you as odd? Does it not bother you?
And why is it usuallly English sounding words but just re arranged? Listen very closely next time you hear it.
I fully belive in the biblical speaking in other languages as in Acts but all I hear is repeated phrases month in month out. Can that be right?
Its very easy to fake speaking in tongues.
Just say “Ohh sham a lama a handa, lama shama sheka, key yar a tunda” a few times with an accent and then reverse it and say “tunda key yar, sheka shama lama, handa lama a shama” you will be accepted but I just made it up but most people would think its tongues.
But its often words that go have a similar ending like handa, lama, shama sheka
Are we gullable or not?
But if it was a language known or recognized then there would be no doubt it was not fake.
Please can anyone out there shed any more light ?????????????????????
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October 25, 2013 at 2:22 am
I came across this site because I was having the same concerns as most. I don’t speak in tongues because I’ve not been baptised in the Holy Spirit but most of the tongues I hear in church (amongst the ministers) are the same week in week out which also got me pondering. I’m reading Kenneth-E-Hagin-Seven-Vital-Steps-to-Receiving-the-Holy-Spirit at the moment and I keep on praying that one day, I will receive it. Shalom.
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October 25, 2013 at 10:36 am
Tina,
If you mean the tongues sound the same from every minister, that would be a bit odd if they are genuine tongues. But we would expect for that to be the case for a single individual, just like you would expect for a Frenchman’s language to always sound the same from week to week.
Jason
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October 25, 2013 at 10:46 am
Martyn,
Yes, in Acts 2 the tongues the disciples spoke in were recognized by others, because they were speaking in languages current at the time. But Paul makes a statement in 1 Corinthians 13, “though we speak with the tongues of men and angels,” implying that not all languages we speak in will be earthly languages. Some of them will be languages spoken by angels. They could even be earthly languages, but languages that are no longer spoken. I recall a story from many years ago of a skeptic who recorded people speaking in tongues at a Pentecostal church. He wrote an article on his experience, and transcribed what was being said phonetically, and proceeded to make fun of the people. A reader of the magazine who happened to be a specialist in ancient languages began sounding out the words, and to his amazement, it was an ancient language (I don’t recall the exact language, but ancient Akkadian comes to mind).
No, if you are just repeating someone else’s words, it is not valid. Speaking in tongues is a supernatural ability to speak in a language you have never learned.
Why do most tongues sound like English words, but just rearranged? It’s likely because those are the only sounds we are capable of making. I had a Hebrew professor who was also a philologist. He said that while the mouth is capable of making some 120 sounds, each language only employs about 30 or so of those sounds. Some languages use very different parts of the mouth to make sounds. You literally train your mouth to make those sounds, and if you don’t train it early enough, you won’t be able to do it later. Think of Asians who try to learn English later in life. They rarely are able to speak it well because they are accustomed to using different sounds, and find it almost impossible to mimic the sounds of English perfectly. I would argue that the same is true of tongues. You might say we all have an accent when speaking in these other languages because we are speaking the words of the other language, but using the sounds our mouth is capable of.
Jason
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October 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm
Lol Jason. No, the ministers don’t all speak the same tongues lol. Minister A says Shokoloko Shokoloko week in week out. Minister B says Bango Bango Bango week in week out. Minister C says Lokoshay Lokoshay week in week out. Catch my drift?
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October 27, 2013 at 12:26 am
Jason, you obviously believe your tongue speaking is genuine. Could you please enlighten me on how you know your tongue speaking is the real deal. What was your experience like? Did the Holy Spirit come over you and take hold of your tongue or were you inspired to start volantarily speaking an unknown language? Did you feel overwhelmed with power on high?
I want to know about the experience itself. I was suppost to have been filled with the Holy Spirit months ago, but doubts soon followed. I believe there must be an experience that accompanies the indwelling of the babtism of the Holy Spirit other than just speaking out a few different unknown words. Something else that confirms the expereince is real, for instance; a revelation from God etc – Look forward to your reply – God Bless
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October 27, 2013 at 1:49 am
Speaking in tongues is completely fake. If not then the god that people believe in has a very small vocabulary consisting of no more than 20 sounds. There are not enough sounds to make one complete sentence. Why is it that the same pastors make the same sounds every week. Wouldn’t this mean that god is offering nothing new on a weekly basis? I was listening to one Born Again Pastor develop a stutter while speaking in tongues this morning in a church next door. Are you saying the god occasionally has a stammer? If you were to record a pastor speaking in tongues this week and then recorded the same pastor next week you will find they are making exactly the same sounds as the previous week. Maybe the sounds will not be in the same order but it the same meaningless sounds will be heard. Ask a Pastor to tell you what god is saying and ask that pastor every week. You will soon learn as I did that it is all show and no substance.
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November 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Tally,
There was no second test in Acts to determine if the tongues speaking was real or not. But I have suggested a way to know whether or not it is real: (1) If you are only saying a few sounds over and over again, it’s probably not real; (2) If you have to concentrate on what sounds to make, then it’s probably not real. Before I first spoke in tongues, I actually had a mental vision of a treasure chest in the midst of blackness. The top was open, and I was looking in the inside. I could “see/hear” words in the chest that I did not understand. Strangely, when the “vision” came to me, the person praying with me would say “Jason, God is giving you the utterance right now. Speak it out in faith.” Scared, I would not do so, and then the vision would go away. And when it did, I couldn’t remember what the words were. Then, it would come back again, and once again, the person praying for me would say God was giving me the utterance. It was as if he could see what I was seeing in my head. I finally decided to speak the words I was seeing/hearing, and trust God for more to follow. They did. They flowed and flowed. Even after this amazing experience, I too, doubted the experience. My reasons for doubting, however, may not be the same as yours. Mine was largely because I was conditioned to believe that when I spoke in tongues I would have this surreal spiritual experience with God…and that didn’t happen. I simply began speaking in a language I had never learned. When I speak in tongues, I do not think about what I am saying before I say it. I just begin to speak and it comes out. And it comes out with many different sounds…just like any other language.
Jason
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November 4, 2013 at 1:36 pm
John Ely,
I have already argued that I believe many people fake tongues, and even provided two ways for identifying fake tongues. So there are some fakers, but don’t think everyone is faking.
When I was in Bible College, we had a lot of foreign students there. I decided to create recordings of some people speaking in tongues, and other people speaking in their native languages. I planned to use this in Bible studies when people would claim that tongues was just gibberish. I would play one person speaking, then stop and ask them if they thought it was someone speaking in tongues or someone speaking in their native language. No one ever got 100%! Most people failed miserably. The funniest thing was the number of foreign languages that people thought were tongues because they sounded like “mere gibberish.”
Jason
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January 17, 2014 at 11:34 am
ive only read the first 6 or so responses so don’t know if this thought has been covered. But one of my worries with people speaking in tongues that are not led by the Holy Spirit but so desperate to do so is that they may be led by another force and could be speaking any kind of evil against themselves or people around them.
Is this a valid concern
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January 17, 2014 at 12:41 pm
I think it’s valid. One time many many years ago at my old church, one of the women in the leadership started praying over me “in tongues” when I was up at the alter. It felt demonic, & I was sure it was, even though she wasn’t aware of that. Well, several years later, the same lady is into New Age crap & is just as weird as she was then, & so that about says it, doesn’t it. I haven’t been up to an alter at a church since, and that was well over 8 or more years ago.
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January 18, 2014 at 11:04 pm
Yes, 100% valid and the very reason i stopped. Was unsure if my tongue speaking was a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit or if i had been talked into thinking i was speaking in tongues or even perhaps another entity may play a part. The fact that i nor anyone else was interpreting my tongue speaking was one of the very reasons i stopped, just as you said what if i were cursing God or somebody else.
Further into this, i prayed a lot about this and read the scriptures with an open mind and heart wanting the Holy Spirit to give me any conviction on the necessity or the validity of speaking in tongues. I am convinced in my own heart that the tongue speaking described in the Book of Acts are actual languages that can be interpreted and not the babble you here these days. Not to say that people cant be gifted in this way, as the Bible states that this could be one of the gifts of the Spirit. I dont believe is it a necessary sign for Salvation as i was lead to believe.
The whole thing for me was, if i was going to speak in tongues genuienly it would of occurred spontaneously under God’s direction, not some hyped up ‘talking into’ as it was.
God Bless
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January 21, 2014 at 10:16 pm
“Scripture teaches us that tongues are genuine languages. They are not meaningless sounds, or ecstatic gibberish. Languages employ a variety of sounds to compose a variety of words. If, when you speak in tongues, you find that you are repeating the same few sounds over and over and over again, it may indicate that you are not truly speaking in tongues. This same criterion can also be used to help us judge whether others’ use of tongues is legitimate or contrived.”
I really want to know :
What scripture supports the first sentence please? and all the sentences in this paragraph please?
Also, They are meaningless words for the human understanding but u r speaking to God not humans.
Also, many people speaking in tongues do repeat over and over, it is not about the the repeating, it is about how the Holy Spirit influences you not the words.
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February 6, 2014 at 11:23 am
My experience has been that it is possible to speak in tongues voluntarily, but also to be compelled by the Holy Spirit to speak out involuntarily, and audibly. The first time that the latter experience came was when someone spoke out in tongues, but it was possible to discern that it was not true tongues. This so angered me that I began to speak quietly in tongues, but the Holy Spirit drove it out audibly, and in an angry tone. As it finished there was a hush, and after what seemed a long time someone gave the interpretation, which was that the stones would shortly be removed from the riverbed. It can be inferred that the person who had spoken in false tongues was blocking the actions of the Holy Spirit and would soon be removed from his post (as leader!)
Another experience, repeated more than once, has been of another person’s speaking in tongues bringing out involuntary tongues from me. On one other occasion, someone was promoting a person who is known to be a charlatan. I spoke to him concerning that person (Benny Hinn), but he would not listen, so I spoke to him (voluntarily) in tongues. That brought forth involuntary tongues from him, which told me that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, so I told him that I would pray for him to be shown the truth about Hinn.
Chas
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February 17, 2014 at 8:13 am
I think repetiting tongues not always fake. When i first spoke in tongue, my tongue move fast by itself, and the sound that came out only “Dididididi” i couldn’t control it. But as the time goes by the sounds became 3-4 words. and yes it was repeating over and over again quite sometimes. But i kept asking Holy Spirit to add more words to glorify God in worship. And He did add more words. Now i’m able to speak in a long sentences. My sugestion is, don’t be lazy! LoL. Ask by faith!
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February 28, 2014 at 5:20 pm
I’ve been a believer for over 14 yrs. I was on fire the first time I recieve christ as savior. I would wake up at 4am before church to praise and worship Him. I got convictions at night to pray for someone randomly. I was about 14 at this time. But my fire grew small over the years going through life experiences and sad to say i know i backslided. Though i still go to bible study at church my personal time with God is very small. I’m now 28. My church has a lot of people that can speak I tounges, even kids that are 11 years old. And I always wondered why I cant speak in tounges.
I never really tried speaking in tounges except for that one time I was in bible camp 8 years ago. The leader told us to pray in our prayer language and for those who couldn’t, to say syllable that comes out of our mind. I tried it and it didn’t feel natural. So after camp I stopped.
Fast forward 2 years ago I was at a church retreat and there was this prophet guest speaker. I believe his genuine because he would say things to people that would make sense but only if you knew that person for a while. Like there was this kid who was an odd ball and he’s not very popular among the church kids. And the prophet prayed over him about how he’s not anywhere near strange or odd because God created him and God enjoys him. He did that to many people in church and I was suprised how accurate his prayers are. So I will in my heart that the prophet would call me upstage also and tell me what does God think about me. But he never did. However I had this impression that God was saying he already forgave me through Christ. And he wants to get closer to me. Since then my hunger has grown but still nowhere the fire I had when I first met Christ. The verse He gave me during my quite time was phillipians 1:6 Then oddly enough was expecting another supernatural experience with God the next retreat but it didn’t really happen.
Fast forwars 4 days ago our bible study leader ask who wants to receive the gifts of tounge. I stood up. 2 people that can speak in tounges prayed over me. They instructed me to say syllable and just don’t think about it. I feel pressured so bad and was sweating non stop. I was uttering maybe 2-3 syllable at most. I was thinking are these syllables I’m uttering right. It seems like I’m just saying things I heard before. Like I was saying ‘sama’ but I know that’s a Japanese word (I watch Japanese shows from time to time) How can you say random syllable without your brain thinking what to say next? I thought this will probably end up like last time I attempted to speak in tounges. I will just end up sitting down with no results. The people praying had began laying their hands on my stomch and throat and praying to loosen up my vocal cords. The guytold me to say the syllable louder but I could not because it seems like I would just be faking it . It doesn’t seem natural. Next thing I know I took a breath in, almost like when you breath in to take a sigh. On the next exhale I cried outloud (I never really cry loud, usually just tear drop during alter call). But here I was crying so hard I can feel my face distorted and my nose starts to run along with tears. My legs and hand was trembling. Along with that exhale I utter different syllable loudly through my crying (not the “tatatatatatata” but different syllables. Its not any words I can recognize. And each exhale is like a long string of syllables, it made my rib hurt after a while because I would run out of breath. My mouth was also on auto pilot. I was not thinking a single syllable but all this sounds came up.They then said to stop and told me I can control it and I can start back whenever I want to. They told me now speak to the Holy spirit in tounges. Suprisingly I’m able to speak in tounges at will and its not the same syllable when I change subjects in my mind. However I did notice repetition of ‘sama’ or ‘ama’ when I was thanking God or HS for giving me this gift. I was so happy. The next day though I tried t speak it because I was informed I can start when ever I want. But I found I could not without thinking about the syllables again. Did I loose it? What did I experience? Is it the baptism? The verses I got on my personal readings after this events are isiah 55:10-11 and isiah 50:70. I don’t know what to expect am I suppose to be able to speak in tounges again. Though I feel a desire to read the word more its not like a burning hunger. I guess I’m scared of going through this experience without seeing any results. That it was just a one time thing
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March 5, 2014 at 8:28 am
The gift of languages is exactly that ,,a Gift…and is used by God for his glory
The greek word for tongue is literally translated as known language
The word “unknown” doesn’t appear in the original text
I received the Holy Spirit when I accepted Jesus as saviour and experienced the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Grace.Love.Joy.Peace etc this is a real and natural experience. I didn’t speak in tongues..and it wasn’t an alternative call…and not at church,,just a low point in my life when I needed the truth
Test the spirits as many false prophets exist
Note:
There are spiritually induced tongue speaking in pagan religions.(unknown language)
Seek God with all your heart in repentance,,,Jesus Christ as God’s son is the only middle man, now one else….
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March 17, 2014 at 6:11 pm
I have been a Christian since I accepted Him as my savior and my Lord back in elementary school. At as been a beautiful, blessed, fascinating, sometimes tough, but always worthwhile road in the 25 or so years since. I have been walking in an intimate relationship with God for a long time; I’ve had moments of prophecy, and I have a gifts of exhortation, faith and teaching, among others. But I have never manifested the gift of tongues. Until now.
Early this morning, DECADES into this relationship, the Holy Spirit bestowed on me the gift of speaking in tongues. While I have finally been led to an amazing, spirit filled church after many years of being in need of one, I have not asked anybody to pray over me, or with me. for this gift. I have scattered prayers through the years asking the Lord to gift me with tongues, if it is his will. It’s been so long though that I had made peace with the notion of never experiencing this. Tongues is but ONE gift, a gift that not all believers exercise, a gift many never will; and it’s not even one of the “greater” gifts. So I was fine if the Holy Spirit didn’t manifest in this way.
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March 17, 2014 at 6:11 pm
Continued…
But he did. I felt the presence of the spirit at around 4am this morning. I opened my mouth to speak. Initially it felt like I was the one forming these sounds, and I felt silly, false. But I read somewhere from another professing believer that they felt the same way in the first 2 minutes or so, but kept going, feeling the manifestation was a faith leap for them; they had to risk feeling silly, risk that they were wrong and just making it up. That resonated with me and I took a similar leap. Very shortly afterward it was apparent that another language was pouring out of me. It was not coming from any kind of conscious choice, any wilful arranging of sounds. The language was pouring out quickly, yet it’s flow was fully in my control. I could stop, and start, at will. It’s like there is a constant stream going and you can chose to dip your foot in, or not. The experience has not been overly emotional; I have not been overcome, overwhelmed, swept up, nor have I felt like it was something that was being forced out of me. My father once told me, back as a teenager, that the gift of tongues was fully within our control to speak, or not speak. I finally understand what he was saying, and of course Paul speaks of the gift in this manner as well.
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March 17, 2014 at 6:12 pm
Continued…
It’s been a very powerful, unique experience. I am grateful for the way in which it has unfolded, because the Lord knows that I needed to have this be a sane, almost rational experience. There was no laying on of hands, no coaxing from exuberant pentecostals, no particularly strong, overwhelming flood of the Holy Spirit (though I have been blessed with those experiences as well); just a man, alone with the Lord, early in the morning, having a gift revealed suddenly. For such a odd, strange occurrence, it’s all been almost casual; it feels completely natural.
I have been speaking it off and on all day, as I chose. The spirit is giving utterance, but I am not out of control. The only people I’ve told are my wife and my sister. I spoke it for them, my sister commented that the language sounds ancient to her, very structured, coherent, not just a stream of repeated sounds and “gibberish”. It definitely manifests as a discernible language, even if it is unknown to me.
It should be noted that recently I did start praying for the gift of interpretation. with or without the actual gift of tongues, as I find churches generally severely lacking in interpreters, and I agree with scripture that tongues has no place in public worship without it. So far that has not been revealed in me, but perhaps this is a “first things first” situation.
As of right now I plan to continue praying in both manners, both intelligible and otherwise, but tongues will be exercised in the privacy of my worship time, unless otherwise instructed of the Lord.
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March 19, 2014 at 3:34 am
This is very helpful. Thanks!
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March 26, 2014 at 2:37 pm
EVERY ONE KNOWS WHEN HE / SHE IS FAKING TOUNGUES.WHEN THE HOLLY SPIRUT SUDDENLY OVERWHELMS YOU YOU CAN NOT STOP IT AND SO IT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY TO JUGDE FOR YOU ARE GENERALLY MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ANDIT IS OFFENDING FOR IT IS MORE KLIKE YOU ARE UNDERMINING CHRISTIANITY…..THIS IS NOT MEANT TO CRITICISE YOU BUT RATHER TO LET YOU SEE THINGS IN ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE.
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April 5, 2014 at 6:53 am
I still think fruit would be a valid test not how many lalalalala or unda cando mopas one speaks. All of the Corinthian church was carnal. As with most churches they probably had a representative continuum of spirituality, with some people being extremely carnal, while others were pretty spiritual — and anything in-between.
I have learned a big vocabulary of tongue-talk and with it I now emit ectoplasms and full materializations of my pets.
Amen(tohep)
Jon Donnis Eveshi
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April 12, 2014 at 4:44 pm
Jon,
But as you noted, the Corinthians spoke in genuine tongues, and yet many of them had really rotten fruit. So fruit is not a good test of whether someone’s tongues are real or fake. And there are those who are really good Christians, but their tongue-speaking does not appear to be genuine.
If you have learned a big vocabulary of tongue-talk, then it’s not the kind of thing Paul is talking about. Biblical tongues is speaking in a language you have never learned.
Jason
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April 13, 2014 at 5:55 am
The first one is your own idea.the scripture doz not support you in that.we grow in everything even in tongue speaking.just like a new born baby may use one word to mean several things,so is a prsn who’s born anew in the baptism experience.
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May 5, 2014 at 12:37 pm
I know how you can tell if someone speaking in tongues is legitimate or not: Can you understand them or not? The vast majority of people who claim to “speak in tongues” have no idea what “speaking in tongues” actually means. It certainly doesn’t mean that you start babbling incoherently, but exactly the opposite. “Speaking in tongues” means that no matter what language you’re speaking, everyone around you is able to understand in their own language. This allowed the apostles to prophesy to the great multitude on Pentecost, and have their message received by everyone, regardless of ethnicity. See for yourself, Acts 2:1 – 2:11:
1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested[a] on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
See what I mean? The Apostles spoke in tongues, and everyone around them UNDERSTOOD. Now tell me, have you ever “understood” any of the quacks blabbing in your churches? I shouldn’t be mean–I’m sure a lot of these people who try to “speak in tongues” are really trying to feel it, and really want to participate. In fact, I’m sure it’s become an “Emperor’s New Clothes” sort of situation, where people feel pressured to “put on tongues” just to fit in. But think about it–all these people talking about their experiences “speaking in tongues” who have said they felt “fake” or “unnatural.” That’s obviously very telling.
This current interpretation of “speaking in tongues” totally misses the entire point. The Holy Spirit granted the gift of tongues to the apostles so that they could more easily spread the word, i.e., reach out to many people of many different languages all at once. Incoherent babbling is just that. It doesn’t spread any message or any idea of any kind. It only serves to focus attention on the speaker. But again, don’t take my word for it. Read your own Bible and see for yourself.
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May 13, 2014 at 11:51 am
You can tell if someone is faking or not by how they judge your gifts of the spirit. If someone INSIST that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved or have the holy ghost RUN !!! There are more gifts then speaking in tongues. However for the past 50 years. People have ONLY focused on tongues. If you people would stop trying to self edify yourself..you would KNOW that. It makes me sick how people try to use tongues to say someone is not saved or not. The HOLY SPIRIT GIVES THE GIFTS AND NOT ONLY TONGUES . 1: Corinthians 12:30 says > ” Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not!” stop faking people.. let the spirit guide you..its NOT about you but the church.
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May 13, 2014 at 12:02 pm
If the gift of tongues is for the unbeliever and not the “believer” .. may I ask why some of you people speak in tongues while praying alone at home ??? whats the point? Just speak to GOD. We need to ask our selves. Is this desire to make one self feel close to GOD and anointed for lack of a real relationship and understand of the word ?
Ive seen pastors tell the entire congregation at an alter call to start speaking out in there ” prayer language” all at the same time ? Why ??? Thats NOT what tongues were for. People have misunderstood the gifts of tongues as they have with tithing as well. ALOT of people fake tongues. It needs to stop. Why are we doing this church ???
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May 14, 2014 at 9:31 am
I have had this gift since 1997, and you CAN speak many of the same words and phrases over snd over. If the Spirit, who inspiresd sperch, wants us to contnue to offer the same prayer, eho are you to put Him in a box snd suggest he doesn’t cant eork thst esy? He works diffetently with different people
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November 2, 2014 at 12:08 pm
So I posted earlier this year my first experience in speaking in tounge. But I haven’t been able to speak it again until I went to my church retreat. I’ve been to other christian conference like ihop, where it was spirit filled and I long to experience tounge again, but nothing. But this church retreat wasn’t anything special. Sure I prayed for a pouring of Gods presence the week before. But during the altar call I was actually working as part if the group of people to help catch people if they fall. So I was too busy to worship sometimes. But when the speaker came up to me and whispered “speak”. I started speaking in tounge suddenly. I didn’t have any great revelation, just crying and tounge. It happened again the next day when she whsipered to me to “speak” But the odd thing is, its been a month now and I can’t speak in tounges yet again. I hear ppl able to speak in tounges whenever they want. But for some reason that does not seem to be my case.
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November 3, 2014 at 9:20 am
It is still a huge mystery to me that no one can answer is why do we never hear anyone speaking in modern languages of today when they “speak in tongues”
Its always some obscure sound thats repeated over and over again and never in an European language (I live in the UK).
If people spoke in the languages of today (even if we dont understand we can soon recognize French or German) it would be very difficult to say its fake but because its always an obscure language no one has ever heard of it before its very difficult to prove.
In Acts 2 the people understood the language people spoke but I have never heard a language I have recognised.
Does that not strike you as odd especially as when the people you hear say the same thing over and over again.
I have tried what they say on google translate and it can never understand it.
Try french or german and it does
I am just trying to be real and understand what is going on.
Is there anyone out there who can throw some light on to this?
The Bible is our true guide and people recognised the language when people spoke in tongues (Acts 2)
Today in 2014 the language is never recognised, never sounds like another language, always slightly odd with no pattern or accent.
Odd or not??
I am not being critical I just want some anwers
Martyn
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November 3, 2014 at 11:39 am
I have heard of instances where someone in the congregation understand the language of the “tongue” but I’ve not witnessed it personally. I’ve heard that someone would go up to the speaker and start speaking to him/her in their language and when the person says they don’t understand, they are then told “but you spoke my language during the worship” and proceed to tell them all they said. As I said, I’ve not witnessed this before. It would be cool though. Very cool.
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November 3, 2014 at 2:19 pm
Hi Tina
Thanks for reply
You would have thought it would happen more but in reality it doesn’t
I’ve been in a charasmatic church for 20 years and its never happened once.
It never sounds like a real language which is my difficulty and if you string a few words together like “cal a shama cama a shama handi” it’s sounds good with an accent but I just made that it up
Then if you say it in reverse it sounds good to!
So it’s very easy to make up and no one can challenge you because no one has ever heard it before but you could never make up speaking in Spanish or French.
I just don’t understand
So if I repeat what someone says in a tongue am I speaking in tongues because they don’t know what they are saying and neither would I so what’s difference?
My difficulty is that I can “do it” but deep down I know I am making it up even though it sounds spiritual and none ever challenges it which makes it even more disturbing
Oh for the truth!!!!
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November 5, 2014 at 5:49 am
I totally agree with you Martyn which is why I don’t speak in tongues. I am praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit though and when it happens, which it will, since I desire it, I want my tongue to move of it’s own volition without me being able to control it and I want the language to flow (if you get what I mean).
If you have the spirit of discernment you will know when someone is ‘faking’ it, lol.
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November 23, 2014 at 8:30 pm
how about praying to have the gift of understanding tongues 🙂 any one here undertands? I agree with the fruit test though.
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November 24, 2014 at 12:41 pm
I went to a church yesterday where the pastor was mocking tongue speaking. Couldn’t believe it. And it was a pentecostal church!!
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November 30, 2014 at 9:05 pm
So, sometimes I just wanna cry out to God about specific things I’ve been praying about for like 20 years and I haven’t got anything new to pray, I’m so desperate for him to answer my prayer but I can’t think of 1 new thing to say I haven’t already said. I believe in the Holy Spirit and tongues and I use a tongue but I have never known if its for real and I’d like to know but I don’t know
Kathy
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December 13, 2014 at 5:26 am
Its all very confusing to me.
On the day of Pentecost people understood what was said. They were real languages spoken that people actually recognised and understood.
The people were amazed and heard them proclaiming the great things of God.
Today in our churches if we are really honest this doesn’t happen. Why?
What would end all arguments on the reality of speaking in tongues is if people actually spoke in the languages of today.
If someone in our church stood up and spoke in German or Polish (we have a lot of Polish in our town) then there would be no argument as to the genuineness of tongues at all.
Even though we would not understand it we would recognise it as a genuine language and all dispute would be gone.
But what do we get?
People speaking using odd sounding words often English words but re arranged like ” key aliba skin d aliba yan d”
Even Google translate can’t make anything out of that.
The words are repeated over and over again sometimes stopping in the middle of the phrase which must sound odd if it was possible to translate.
I am not being critical just honest and real to show how far away we are from what happened in Acts 2.
Reason given to these obscure sounds made “oh its a dialect from an ancient tribe in Africa”
But in Act 2 the apostles spoke in languages that were understood not some ancient language no one knew.
Search youtube and you will find many posts with people speaking in tongues and again you will notice the exactly the same style of what is called speaking in tongues.
It repetitive and never flows like a language but again claimed to be speaking in another language.
So why is tongues always this same sounding style? It only means speaking a language but why oh why is it language no one ever recognises?
Does not that seem odd to you?
If you hear someone speaking in a language unknown to you there is tone, variation,feeling,with constructed sounds that is a real language.
But with tongues its always the same style and I can make up that same style and I really does sound like tongues.
So my worry is…is it being made up?
If there were genuine languages of today’s world then all arguments would stop.
Has anyone on this thread spoken in a known language that is you have recognised even if you don’t understand it.
You would recognise German,Spanish,French,Italian,Japanese and many other languages even if you don’t understand them.
My boys speak German as they ate learning at school and it sounds a real language. It never sounds tongues language.
So what am I saying? The Holy Spirit will always operate according to the Word He has inspired. On the day of Pentecost the disciples spoke in languages that people recognised and understood.
A genuine gift of speaking in other languages (for that’s what it is) will always be and sound like a real language.
I will interested to see how many on this thread actually speak a known 21st century language.
Please belive me I am not being critical only real and honest as to what is happening today. We are told to “search the scripture’s to see if these things are so”
I am only pointing out what happened in scripture and what happens today and leave it with you to make your judgement.
When the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 Peter recognised that they had received the Holy Spirit just as they had and Peter knew that because they spoke in other languages. If Peter says “the same thing happened to them as to us” can I be so bold as to suggest that the languages the Gentiles spoke were known languages even if they didn’t understand them. This is only a suggestion but Peter does say “as it happened to us so it happened to them”. The disciples spoke in known languages so why not the Gentiles spoke in known languages if the same thing happened.
So has that happened to you?
Have you spoken in a known language even if you do not understand what you say?
Deception is a horrible thing. It looks right, sounds right,must be right but Eve found out the cost of deception.
This thread is about decerning if tongues are genuine.
The Holy Spirit alone is able to guide you into all truth and show you if He has given you the gift of speaking in another language.
Every blessing in your search for truth
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December 13, 2014 at 7:59 am
I totally agree with you on all the points you raised and I’m also not being critical. I love the Lord with all my heart, it hurts. I do not as yet speak in tongues because I want it to be genuine. Most of the tongues I hear in church, even from the supposed ministers do not sound ‘real’. It all sounds made-up. We should all pray for the spirit of discernment.
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December 13, 2014 at 9:19 am
Hi
Thanks for comments. The difficult thing is that the folk in our church I comment on are really love the Lord and served Him faithfully for years so the fruit is there but something still does not seem right. One lady I know all she seems to say when there is public prayer is “harry can dara” over and over again and I have known her for 20 years yet that’s all she still says but a lovely lady who has given her life in serving the Lord and the church.
So its not a question of no fruit.
Basically if someone pubically is speaking in language thay are stating that the Holy Spirit has given me this language I am speaking.
OK some would say its done in faith. Fair point as what we believe is by faith but it also can be tested by the Word.
Because those on the Day of Pentecost heard the apostles speak in their own language and dialect then the apostles would have known that the language they were speaking was a known language. They would have known the language they were speaking was authentic.
We cannot claim that today so to say we are Pentecostal because we have what they had on the day of Pentecost is not really true.
For years I believed in faith I had spoken in tongues but when I heard someone keep repeating the same thing then I began to listen to what I said and I was doing the same. It never really sounded a real language and it was always an effort and never got the “edify himself” as Paul exported and wondered why till I realised I was making it up.
Like you I long for the real manifestation of speaking in another language and allowing my spirit to pray so I will keep searching but realise that the gifts are “distributed according to His will”
Every blessing
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December 13, 2014 at 1:08 pm
We must never cease praying for the infilling. It would be a beautiful day indeed when it eventually happens.
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January 1, 2015 at 2:36 pm
Doesn’t it say that their should be one person able to define what the other person said
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January 1, 2015 at 5:32 pm
Yes, the Bible does say there should be interpretation and if there’s not, the speaker should, “shut up”, lol but we are talking about when Christians are praying individually (not to the entire church) and the ‘words’ are just repetitive etc.
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January 20, 2015 at 8:02 am
Wow, great article post. Fantastic.
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January 21, 2015 at 3:50 am
1 corinthians 14:2.
*[[1Co 14:2]] KJV* For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries unto God.
Please read the whole chapter 14. U will be enlightened.
There are tongues of men and of angels.
(1cor 13:1)
When the disciples received the Holy Spirit and spake with tongues known unto men,that didnt become the standard of tongues.
Paul,in 1cor14:22 said tongues are a sign to non believers. So in that place,it was for ppl to believe.
*[[1Co 14:9]] KJV* So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. … that shows tongues may or may be not understood.
The Spirit gives utterance according to how He pleases. So if a man repeats some syllables,as lonf as he is led by the Spirit,u cant say they r fake.
If their mind is unfruitful,then how does he do it??
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January 21, 2015 at 4:16 am
*[[1Co 2:13-15]] KJV*
13.Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15.But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
If a man is saying the same syllables,unless u r spiritual enough or heard from God about that matter,you cant make any conclusions.
Also,there’s nothing like fruits(gifts) falling off.
This is a spiritual matter n cant be compared to the natural realm.
Romans 11:29 kjv
His gifts and calling are without repentance.
It is true,the more a man speaks in tongues,with increase comes his utterance.
If a man,finds it hard to speak after one instance,daint mean that the gift has fallen off. It is there and wont leave. He just just to draw it out of him.
Because greater is He in him. The power is within him. That is Christ Jesus,the Hope of Glory.
Amen.
I beseech thee by the mercies of God,to read more scripture. Comparing one to the other.
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January 21, 2015 at 4:59 am
I have read some comments and some say that tongues r a sign to unbelievers so y do u pray in tongues when at home??
That is absurd. True,they r for non believers but that is not the only purpose.
The same chapter where u read that 1Cor 14..if u read to the bottom,14:39 refuses stoppin ppl ffom stoppin others from speaking in tongues.
It is not bad to edify oneself. It is not selfish. The purpose is that with one edified so is there spirit. How can u help others when u too r down??
Romas 8:26-27 shows the purpose of tongues
*[[Rom 8:26-27]] KJV*
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27.And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God….
Also y it is important,I will give you verse y it is good to pray in tongues
*[[1Co 2:10-12]] KJV*
v 10.But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
v 11.For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The Spirit Of God that we have received enables us to pray in tongues and according to God’s will. and as u have seen above, the spirit is the one that knows the things of a man,So it is with God.
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March 3, 2015 at 4:59 pm
I don’t think you should discourage Christians from wanting to speak in tongues. This is a needed weapon for our times, and a simple let’s give thanks for a Mc Donalds happy meal just isn’t going to cut it.
This should be encouraged and brought into the light as a valid and needed practice, not a launch pad to start condemning those who want it. And how should you be the judge, if as you put it, “just sounds fake” make rash decisions from a laptop about others growth in the spirit? The first time they stared speaking in tongues people thought it was insane, or they were drunk. So evidently your so called intellect does not decide if someone is authentic or not, but the power of the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.
Now I am sure there are groups of people working in the flesh all over the place. Matter of fact its more prevalent then ever before. So what??? That’s what the bible says will happen!! I’d rather concern myself on truth than trying to figure out who is doing what. Fake is fake and I just heard a story of a church that shocked people with a electric current, and pushed them backwards with force to try and make it appear as if they were under the holy spirit. (If true or not I don’t know or care its something I heard)
So what I am saying is this, if you accepted Christ as your redeemer, and are truly thirst for rightness, and seeking him with your whole heart, then you are doing well. If you are standing on a street corner speaking in tongues so everyone can see you, then you have that as your reward.
I am so tired of people telling other Christians who they think they should be. Like whoever wrote this question in the first place. You sound more concerned about a believer who is desperate for more of God than you are actually helping someone. If you can edify the church great, but if you just want to point out what you see does not measure up to your far intellectual standards, than maybe we all need Gods help far more than I ever imagined.
Just my take on it as someone who just started speaking in tongues. PEACE!
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March 3, 2015 at 11:28 pm
Scott:
Accepting that people speak in tongues is one way of saying that retardates are welcome into your fold as delusional members; the reality of speaking in tongues in the bibe refers to the diversity of people who spoke in their own dialect but came together as a unit within the church under a common umbrella of understanding.
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March 3, 2015 at 11:29 pm
SonofMan Says:
March 3, 2015 at 11:28 pm
Scott:
Accepting that people speak in tongues is one way of saying that retardates are welcome into your fold as delusional members; the reality of speaking in tongues in the bibe refers to the diversity of people who spoke in their own dialect but came together as a unit within the church under a common umbrella of understanding.
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March 4, 2015 at 12:00 am
Scott
Thank God for your life. Nobody is mocking those who speak in tongues, fake or otherwise but surely, you’d agree that the Holy Ghost’s language is not restricted to only a few words over and over again (shalabala shalabala shalabala)? How come some tongues are fluent and sound almost like a language? I thought an African man was speaking Hebrew once when he was speaking in tongues. I could almost swear he was. I had my eyes closed and thought a Jew/Israeli had walked into the congregation (we were on a pilgrimage to Israel at the time). I peeked and was amazed. Now, that’s what we’re talking about!
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March 4, 2015 at 8:58 am
THE WHOLE MEANING OF TONGUES:
A BIBLICAL WALK THROUGH THE CORRIDORS OF TIME:
At one time, the whole Earth spoke the same language. It so happened that as they moved out of the east, they came upon a plain in the land of Shinar and settled down.
They said to one another, “Come, let’s make bricks and fire them well.” They used brick for stone and tar for mortar.
Then they said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city and a tower that reaches Heaven. Let’s make ourselves famous so we won’t be scattered here and there across the Earth.”
God came down to look over the city and the tower those people had built.
God took one look and said, “One people, one language; why, this is only a first step. No telling what they’ll come up with next—they’ll stop at nothing! Come, we’ll go down and garble their speech so they won’t understand each other.” Then God scattered them from there all over the world. And they had to quit building the city. That’s how it came to be called Babel, because there God turned their language into “babble.” From there God scattered them all over the world.
So the writer of Corinthians was encouraging the single language concept yet once again for the Church and thus was the institution of Latin initiated, the so called “Dead Language”; dead because it did not change and all who studied the language could go into every church in the world and be understood in preaching, prophesying, blessing, singing and in praying. As it was before the Latin language everyone spoke in his own language. It is worth noting that in those good old days women were told to keep quiet and not to speak in church; if they wanted to know something, they were advised to ask their own husbands in their own house, for in church, their place was to keep still and quiet as they were second class citizens without saying as much. I think that scripture is not heeded anymore as some scriptures get thrown out as times change for all you bible thumpers who think that scripture re;evance is rigid and cannot be challenged; this is one of those scriptures that has to be thrown away because it is irrelevant in today’s coming of age.
1. The Catholic Faith, was spread by the Apostles and by the early Christian missionaries throughout the Roman Empire. The common language of the Roman Empire was Latin, but in the East, Greek was the vulgar tongue. Thus in the Roman Rite, while both Greek and Latin were used as liturgical languages, the preference was eventually given to the use of Latin, while some use of the Greek was maintained.
It has been the consistent teaching of many Popes, moreover, that Latin has special qualities as a language of worship in the Roman Rite, giving us a common identity with our ancestors in the Faith.
Latin is a symbol of the visible universality and unity of the Church that helps preserve a bond of unity with our common center, Rome, ‘the Mother and Teacher of all nations’.
2. As the languages of the different nations changed over the years, why did the Church cling to Latin, which is a dead language?
Because modern languages continue to develop, the meanings of the words evolve. For example, although the present vernacular Mass dates from only 1970, a new translation is already being prepared, amongst great disagreement as to the appropriate translation. Latin, by contrast, as a dead language, is unchanging and gives the standard to which all translations are referred. It therefore greatly helps to maintain unity of worship and prayer. Latin preserves the orthodox and unchanging meaning of the Mass from the danger of re-interpretation, which is possible when changes occur too frequently.
And so speaking everyone in his own language (read tongues) without an interpreter is worse than merely useless and people do speak gibberish if no one can understand what they are saying no matter what language you hear.
So if the Jew speaks in prayer to the Greek who passes it along to the French and invites the German to chortle in, who speaking Spanish will understand the Philippine who can’t speak Chinese or understand Russian either and if all of them speak according to their language a straggler coming into the church seeking experience will think the whole church consists of a bunch of fools; and, they’d be right…that is what speaking in tongues means; it has nothing to do with any supernatural communication at all. Using Latin then as a common language returns the congregation back to the days of the building of the Tower of Babel
There are many languages in the world and they all mean something to someone. But if I don’t understand the language, it’s not going to do me much good. It’s no different with you. Since you’re so eager to participate in what God is doing, why don’t you concentrate on doing what helps everyone in the church?
So, when you pray in your private prayer language, don’t hoard the experience for yourself. Pray for the insight and ability to bring others into that intimacy. If I pray in tongues, my spirit prays but my mind lies fallow, and all that intelligence is wasted. So what’s the solution? The answer is simple enough. Do both. I should be spiritually free and expressive as I pray, but I should also be thoughtful and mindful as I pray. I should sing with my spirit, and sing with my mind. If you give a blessing using your private prayer language, which no one else understands, how can some outsider who has just shown up and has no idea what’s going on know when to say “Amen”? Your blessing might be beautiful, but you have very effectively cut that person out of it.
I’m grateful to God for the gift of praying in tongues that he gives us for praising him, which leads to wonderful intimacies we enjoy with him. I enter into this as much or more than any of you. But when I’m in a church assembled for worship, I’d rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish.
To be perfectly frank, I’m getting exasperated with your infantile thinking. How long before you grow up and use your head—your adult head? It’s all right to have a childlike unfamiliarity with evil; a simple no is all that’s needed there. But there’s far more to saying yes to something. Only mature and well-exercised intelligence can save you from falling into gullibility. It’s written in Scripture that God said,
In strange tongues
and from the mouths of strangers
I will preach to this people,
but they’ll neither listen nor believe.
So where does it get you, all this speaking in tongues no one understands? It doesn’t help believers, and it only gives unbelievers something to gawk at. Plain truth-speaking, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart of believers and doesn’t get in the way of unbelievers. If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can? But if some unbelieving outsiders walk in on a service where people are speaking out God’s truth, the plain words will bring them up against the truth and probe their hearts. Before you know it, they’re going to be on their faces before God, recognizing that God is among you.
So here’s what I want you to do. When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight. If prayers are offered in tongues, two or three’s the limit, and then only if someone is present who can interpret what you’re saying. Otherwise, keep it between God and yourself. And no more than two or three speakers at a meeting, with the rest of you listening and taking it to heart. Take your turn, no one person taking over. Then each speaker gets a chance to say something special from God, and you all learn from each other. If you choose to speak, you’re also responsible for how and when you speak. When we worship the right way, God doesn’t stir us up into confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches—no exceptions.
Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God’s Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking. Do you—both women and men—imagine that you’re a sacred oracle determining what’s right and wrong? Do you think everything revolves around you?
If any one of you thinks God has something for you to say or has inspired you to do something, pay close attention to what I have written. This is the way the Master wants it. If you won’t play by these rules, God can’t use you. Sorry.
Three things, then, to sum this up: When you speak forth God’s truth, speak your heart out. Don’t tell people how they should or shouldn’t pray when they’re praying in tongues that you don’t understand. Be courteous and considerate in everything.
And start taking Latin Classes at the LSL school. This was the early evolution of the Catholic Church and Latin remained the single common language for nearly 2000 years until:
The Day the Mass Changed, How it Happened and Why. The Church wanted to get back to the aftermath of Tower of Babel days when languages again became scattered in the Churches
On November 29, 1964 — a year after the Second Vatican Council’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was enacted — the “New Mass”, as it was then called, was introduced into US parishes. A fairly typical description of what Catholics experienced at Mass on that day, the Sunday after Thanksgiving, is this:
Parishioners sitting in their places that morning knew something was different from the moment the Mass began. The week before, the priest and altar boys had entered in silence; now everyone was expected to sing at least two verses of a processional hymn. The scriptural passages for the day were read aloud in the vernacular…. The priest, standing behind a new altar set up in the middle of the sanctuary, still said some prayers in Latin, but the people were encouraged to recite others along with him, again in their own language.… The distribution of Communion was now different. In the past, the priest had repeated a prayer in Latin as he worked his way along the line of parishioners kneeling at the altar. He now paused in front of each parishioner, in many places standing rather than kneeling, held up the Communion host so they could see it, and said, “Corpus Christi” (“the Body of Christ”), to which the communicant responded, “Amen”. In a few months this, too, would be said in English, and the altar rail itself would be gone.…
The Church discontinued all Latin by 1969 after nearly 2000 years after it was initiated as 1 Corinthians shows how the way of the tongues began.
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March 29, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Plainly, be careful of the validity of everything you put here. Make sure that you would die for the truth of your interpretation of scripture or live with the fact that you may be leading one astray or crushing someone by claiming that they are not speaking in tongues based off of what one may think tongues is. Unless the Holy Spirit has commanded you clearly to write this, then I would look it over because none of us our flawless.
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March 29, 2015 at 11:55 pm
I don’t think there’s anything wrong in questioning stuff. Afterall, the Bible does say, “Test all spirits” 😉
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March 30, 2015 at 9:37 am
Tina you are so right:
1 Thessalonians 5:
19-22 Don’t suppress the Spirit, and don’t stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don’t be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what’s good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.
In other words “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” KJV
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March 30, 2015 at 9:44 am
Christian:
“You said: “Make sure that you would die for the truth of your interpretation of scripture…..” is actually quite a imsinformed opinion about truth of scripture from Jesus point of reference.
Here is the edited version of what you should have said: “Make sure that you would live for the truth of your interpretation of scripture…….”
Just one simple word change means the difference between Life and Death. Only the truth of Life can be a cause to live, for never death. I don’t care how much you think you may be right.
Jesus does not teach anyone to die for the cause; he teaches everyone to live for the cause.
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April 20, 2015 at 3:05 am
Shella ma bacca sella sha la coo tah. See tee so cooma. Sesta sheki ara. Esheta selesta macar. O rekar allacher shella mestar. Does this sound like a tongue…This is a subject that really bothers me. I constantly feel i may just be talking rubbish.
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April 21, 2015 at 7:49 am
Hi
You have made a very interesting post. I have wondered for ages if what is heard in churches today as “speaking in tongues” or languages is really a language.
I hear people in our church who “speak in tongues” and they say the same thing over and over again. One is “O shall a sander. Key ya a tunder key ya a sander. Cusa cusa” and thats all is ever said every time. He used to be pastor and is now retired and is a great man. Another say “harry can dara” over and over again and thats all. Another says “key aliba skindi aliba yandi and again thats all I have ever heard him say every time. He used to lead the service and say “lets all speak out in tongues key aliba skindi aliba yande key aliba skindi aliba yande over and over again but he said that last week and the week before that so much so my children could imitate it
The trouble is that as these “languages” are never spoken by people as their native language so no one can confirm that they have spoken a real language. You may get the odd story of someone recognising a language but in the main they are “languages” never understood.
Now if people spoke in German or French or Spanish most people from Europe would recognise the language even if they cannot speak it and anyone who spoke the language could testify it was true.
The trouble is its so easy to make up and no one can prove otherwise.
“Eta estoraa ca satra com sanda sheka banda soma kanda”. Yes I have just typed this on my computer. Day it with a slight accent and there you have it. Filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues! But I just made it up
So you can see how easy it is to make up and no one can disprove it.
In Acts 2 the people heard the disciples speaking in their own languages. Note they heard them speaking and they recognised their language. That very rarely happens today. Why?
Even those from the early Penticostal Movement in Azusa Street in America thought that they would be able to go out and preach as missionaries speaking in other languages but they came back very dissapointed as no one understood them and they had to relook at what their belief was. You can research it for yourself.
We are encouraged to “speak it out” and say the first thing that comes into your mind. The bible says the Holy Spirit gives the utterance not the first thing that comes into your mind.
Listen to people speaking in their own language and its just so so different than when people “speak in tongues” The problem is that the same thing is said over and over again. It never sounds a language just a lot of words made up from the alpha bet. Its often english words with pronunciation from the english language. It often rymes like “skini” and “yandi”
Your record sounds like “speaking in tongues” but did the Holy Spirit give the utterance (Acts 2) if not then you are making it up.
Thats the conclusion I came to when I “spoke in tongues”
If the Holy Spirit is not giving the utterance then you are making it up.
Would He give you the same words week in week out just to repeat over and over again?? Jesus was against vain repetition.
Why is it that no one very very rarely understands the “language” “Oh its and ancient dialect” But no one ever speaks German or Spanish. I have never heard of any one speaking in a modern day language. It never happens. We have a lot of Polish where I live but no one ever speaks Polish or any Eastern European language. There are a lot of “shekas” and “shandis” but never a Spanish accent being heard.
Why why why as that would be so authentic but even language experts who have studied “Speaking in languages” cannot recognise or even understnd the lack of flow and style of speech and conclude its made up from phrases and putting letters to form words together in a random style to make a “language” but has no meaning.
I am very open for the Holy Spirit to give me the utterance but I am not falling for trying to close my eyes and make up whatever comes into my head. My desire is for a genuine language that can be recognised as a language given by the Holy Spirit.
“Just belive brother!” But God has also given us a mind and when a language does not sound a language and is repeated over and over again and is made up from the english alphabet then something does not seem right. In Acts 2 they spoke languages that people recognised. 2000 years on this does not seem to happen and why? I dont know is my true answer.
I have been to Africa and its interesting that someone who works a lot in Africa has noticed that whenever anyone comes from the Uk and “speaks in tongues” the African people will copy it. Odd if the Holy Spirit is giving the utterance
It has also been noted by those who have studied “speaking in tongues” that people usually “speak in tongues” very similar to where they live in the world. The style is often similar using rearranged words from their own language.
I am just trying to be honest
Many of you have wonderful times “Speaking in tongues” but for us who do not have this gift have to struggle and find some meaning to the confusion that is going on
People say “its the tongues of angels” thats why you cant understand it. But Paul say “If I speak in tongues of men and of angels and do not have love I am nothing” He never said that he spoke in languages of angels anywhere as he say “If”
Its also interesting that if you make up “Speaking in tongues” it sounds that same as those who say they”speak in tongues” So why is that. No one ever challenged me as I sounded that same as them even though I made it up.
Is that not odd that the same thing, one made up and the other “real” sounds the same?
And when I say the same I do not mean same words but the style and lack of flow and the same sound is made as against someone speaking in Arabic or Italian etc
Anybody any comments??
Every blessing in your search for the truth
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April 21, 2015 at 10:56 am
Martyn:
Read 1 Corinthians and you will clearly see that anyone speaking in tongues but does not interpret them for the other members of the congrgation is just speaking into the air and it does nothing for anyone so they may as well shut up is the message because what you say is nonsense and utter rubbish, get the pun “utter” rubbish!
1Cor 14: 6-19
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with understanding, that may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.(that nobody understands)
In Post 112 above you can also read some extensive notes on the whole speaking in tongues scenario.
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May 12, 2015 at 8:13 am
I have a ? I wonder if I am just making up sounds. I do repeat sounds as I sing in “tongues” but they repeat a few times, like songs on the radio, and then I move on to other sounds, some repeat like a chorus, some don’t. Also, I hear the phrase in my head, similar to how you hear a song that gets stuck in your head, and then I sing it. How legit is this. Keep in mind I do this only while alone and my attitude is one of seeking God while I do it.
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May 12, 2015 at 8:49 am
Daniel:
I think you have a “musical” mind, a propensity to compose poetry with musical components of repetition and chorus that’s all…melody conscious which affects you at certain times something like the old tune about “Whistle while you work”. This is a fairly natural human behavior, not in a fairytale way; I have a friend I drive her to work and she constantly hums the whole time if not talking; it’s just her rocking chair habit. Very human. Very normal.
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May 21, 2015 at 10:40 pm
Everyone needs to stop wondering if someone is faking or not faking speaking in tongues. Worry about yourself. And your be better off!
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May 21, 2015 at 11:57 pm
That’s true but you can’t help wondering. We are told to “test the spirits” so there is no harm in inquiring.
Would you want someone you know to think they have something when they haven’t or to think they haven’t something when they have.
There is no middle ground over this one. You either speak in another language or you don’t.
You can make it up but you are not speaking a language.
The Holy Spirit is giving you the utterance or He isnt. Its as simple as that.
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May 22, 2015 at 12:05 am
Rebekah, if you really believed the principle “worry about yourself” then you wouldn’t have posted that comment. The fact that felt the need to leave a comment shows that you are worrying about more than yourself. So why should we just worry about ourselves if you aren’t just worrying about yourself? It seems we all worry about more than ourselves.
Jason
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June 19, 2015 at 10:19 am
If you are really speaking in tongues, you know that you are doing so. If you are feigning tongues, you know that you are doing so. If you really speak in tongues, then you can tell if somebody else is really speaking in tongues, or feigning it. How do I know? Experience!
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June 20, 2015 at 2:31 am
Is ‘Experience’ the new word for discernment now?
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June 20, 2015 at 10:53 am
Tina:
Times and words and meaning do change Tina; “sitting” is the new word for “smoking”.
But “speaking” (pun intended) of tongues, I can only speak in tongues fluently using English, haltingly in French and mere Papal tongue utterances for “How are you” in Spanish, Tagalog and Chinese lol. So in a mixed congregation, practically the entire assembly can understand exactly what I am saying when I say “How are you” in five tongues. Impressive huh?
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June 27, 2015 at 9:39 am
Recently God allowed me to speak a couple of words in tongues. It was 5 or 6 words but then I became afraid (it’s a long story, but I know that using this gift could make me an outcast with my local body of believers). The words didn’t come more after I felt afraid, but instead God seemed to be comforting me. My pondering is this, with people who are repetitive, could they have received a few words, as I did, and chosen to repeat them? Also couldn’t God perhaps give people something to repeat, like perhaps some sort of praise? I know people who say “hallelujah, thank you Lord” over and over. If I didn’t know what they were saying, it would definitely sound like repetitive gibberish. Just my thoughts.
Amanda
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June 28, 2015 at 11:36 am
After studying Hebrew language and words for over 25 years now ,I have found something very interesting.
Most people, that have been given the gift of tongues,including myself have common words in tongues that seem to repeat now and then(through no influence) except the Holy Spirit.Those words quite often are Hebrew in origin and usually have roots with “Jah” or Jehovah, the God of Israel.
I realize that tongues are spiritual words by our spirit to God, that outside people are not really meant to understand except God Himself,and this makes a lot of sense when you think that He has made a way for our spirit to communicate to our God who is also a Spirit.
I get the feeling that for some reason that the common language for all in heaven will be Hebrew.Now of course that’s not scriptural and I wouldn’t make a doctrine out of it but the Hebrew tongue and the very survival of the Hebrew people is a miracle in itself.
Pete
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June 28, 2015 at 9:12 pm
Peter:
Speaking in tongues is DELUSIONAL.
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July 2, 2015 at 2:59 pm
I’ve never spoken in tongues before, and now I want to start doing it. I don’t know or understand how to let the Holy Spirit produce the utterance, whatever it is that I am to speak. I know it’s by faith, but I just don’t understand how this works.
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July 5, 2015 at 12:36 am
Hi Samuel. Your post is very interesting. I have faced the same challenge. I can make it up or just beleive that I am speaking in a different language but at the end of the day is the Holy Spirit giving the utterance?
We had a young pastor at our church and all he ever said was”key aliba skindie aliba yandie ” whenever he spoke out in a service that’s all he would say. Well if you do a search what skindie it means. According to the Urban Dictionturary it means a mix between a skater and an indie! It’s also a name of a music magazine called Skindie.
A Yandie is a female Yeti. Search it yourself on google
Now would the Holy Spirit give these words to someone to say?
This person spoke out “in faith” but didn’t listen to what he said. God has given us common sense. If we are speaking out words that mean a female Yeti think we are speaking what the Holy Spirit has given then we really need to think again.
Heidi Baker who is well know for her work in Mozambique has an odd word she uses. I have heard her shout out ” Shabba” and then everyone laughts in the congregation. Did I miss something? What was funny? According to the Urban dictionary Shabba is random word that people shout out randomly. It is also used by Jamaican rappers some with very bad explicit lyrics. It can also mean ” fullness in love and life in all you do” but of course Heidi Baker didn’t give the interpretation of her “Shabba” so we were none the wiser.
I’m just trying to be honest with this speaking in other languages. People say they have it but drill down to the detail and are they speaking a language?
It’s never German or French or a language we may recognise even if we don’t speak it. It’s always ” shalla secon a sander hallamana” see I just made that up. Say it with a slight accent and you have received brother!
So every blessing in your search for the real deal of working a language as they Spirit gives the utterance.
There can only be one answer. Either you are speaking as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance or your not.
Before you tell someone you have received the gift of speaking in other languages make sure the utterance is given by the Holy Spirit.
In our desire to be like everyone else to “receive” our minds can easily make up words from out English vocabulary that may sound good, decive ourselves and others but if its not from the Holy Spirit then you are speaking to the air!
Listen to YouTube videos on speaking in other language and you will be amazed how people repeat same words over and over. Didn’t Jesus say ovoid vain repetition?
And why is it when you make it up it sounds the same as when people say they have the gift. Odd??
If people spoke in modern day languages that we may recognise but do not speak fluent then all argument would cease. On the day of Pentecost people recognised the language that was being spoken. We claim to have what they had but this very very if ever happens and I wonder why?
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July 5, 2015 at 9:41 am
Martyn, Peter, Samuel, Amanda, Tine et al:
Is there anything more pointless and useless than so called speaking in tongues? Honestly?
All these so-called miracles? Have you ever heard of someone with one leg suddenly getting another? Now THAT would be a miracle and I don’t mean prosthetics.
All the speaking in tongues recounted in Acts says nothing about gibberish or repetitive syllabics which is made up of “utter” rubbish.
Here read it again for the first time, how it supposedly went down in Acts 2: 1-11:
A Sound Like a Strong Wind
2 1-4 “When the Feast of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Without warning there was a sound like a strong wind, gale force—no one could tell where it came from. It filled the whole building. Then, like a wildfire, the Holy Spirit spread through their ranks, and they started speaking in a number of different languages as the Spirit prompted them.
5-11 There were many Jews staying in Jerusalem just then, devout pilgrims from all over the world. When they heard the sound, they came on the run. Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites;
Visitors from Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene;
Immigrants from Rome, both Jews and proselytes;
Even Cretans and Arabs!
“They’re speaking our languages; we do hear them speak in our tongues describing God’s mighty works!”
These were not incoherent, repetitious syllabic babbling; they needed no interpreters as everybody each heard them speaking in their own native languages.
So did this really happen? if so, how? A miracle? Or in the absence of a miracle, did the eleven apostles each take private language lessons using the same, familiar sentences from the Old Testament in various languages in preparation to astonish the Convention Goers in order to have as huge an impact on them as possible?
Perhaps so; in that, if it was a planned verbal assault for effect, it surely confounded everybody there. Others of course mocked the Eleven Apostles and brushed it off saying that they were “full of new wine”. But Peter stood up and said
“Listen up, nobody is drunk at the third hour” (approx. 8:37:30 am) and went on to quote scriptures from Joel about the “last days”.
While scripture doesn’t mention what language Peter spoke, his language presumably would have also been fairly common to many of the Convention Goers since it was a Jewish Convention and there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation in the world under heaven, naming about 15 different places the Convention Goers were from or native to.
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July 5, 2015 at 9:51 am
And it surely did have an impact as noted in verse 41 of the same chapter:
Acts 2:41: “……. the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:40 He (Peter) went on in this vein for a long time, urging them over and over, “Get out while you can; get out of this sick and stupid culture!”
41-42 That day about three thousand took him at his word, were baptized and were signed up. They committed themselves to the teaching of the apostles, the life together, the common meal, and the prayers.
43-45 Everyone around was in awe—all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person’s need was met.
46-47 They followed a daily discipline of worship in the Temple followed by meals at home, every meal a celebration, exuberant and joyful, as they praised God. People in general liked what they saw. Every day their number grew as God added those who were saved.
A BIG IMPACT.
A big conversion to say the least.
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July 6, 2015 at 8:34 am
To all you out there who speak in other languages we still cannot get past the true fact that on the Day of Pentecost people understood the diciples when they spoke in other languages.
But no one has come onto this discussion and explained why that no one ever understands the language spoken today.
No one ever speaks German, Italian, French, Polish, Danish, Arabic, Spanish. Most people can recognise the language even if we are not fluent in it or can speak it. We can usually guess the langue and be right.
But when we have modern day speaking in other languages it nothing like European languages or any other language from my experience.
It sound exactly the same as when its made up. Why oh why is this???
And why why why do people keep saying the same thing over and over again?
Its a complete mystery to me.
I am open to God to receive the utterance as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance but I’m certainly not falling “just speak it out brother” Speak what out! “shaka sande comastyer de entora neone domasta” Thing is, I just made that up on my keyboard but it sure sounds real.
Now if I spoke German then there would be no way I am making that up but if no one can confirm what you are saying how do you know you are deceiving yourself and making it up.
So I challenge all those who speak in other languages to record what you say (we have plenty of recording devices on out mobiles and ipads today)
and listen to what you say. Do you repeat yourself over and over again?
Does it really sound a language? Please dont give me its languages of angels because Paul never said he did speak in the language of angles. He said “if I speak” The if before dosnt say he did. He says “If I give my body to be burnt” but we know he didnt as Jesus fortold he would be crucified. So there is no evidence it is an angelic language.
And then we get “Oh its an old dialect that has not been used for 1000s of years”. Oh very helpful so no one can prove it then
It funny that on the Day of Pentecost they understood but 2000 years on no one is understood when people speak in other languages. Odd???
So come on we want some answers. This is doing my head in!
I really am open to receiving the gift of speaking in other languages. Believe me I really am but I dont want some fake utterance. I want the real deal and I am trust God that I will get the real thing if He is still giving this gift to His people.
So has your speaking in other languages been confirmed to be a known language. If not why not. It happened on the Day of Pentecost and Pentecostals claim to have what was at the beginning so why not.
In the church I go to a lady used to have a message in tongues every week. It was exactly the same each week but there was a totally different interpretation each week and no one challenged it. (before my time). Odd???
We used to have same from out youth pastor. “Key aliba skindie aliba yandie Oh key alibal skindie alibal yandie” week in week out was all he would keep saying from the front when leading until he left.
It did my head in!!
It didnt seem right to challenge him but it still didnt seem right to ask him why he kept saying the same think especially as a skindie is part skater and part indie and a yandie is a female Yeti according to google search!.He was at the time on fire for God, brought up with Christain parents and has served 10 years in the church so “no here today gone tomorrow” person.
Is there any one out there who can put some truth into all this?????!!!!!
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August 8, 2015 at 6:49 am
I think have receive the holy spirit but im still thinking of what to say before i can say anything please help me what can i do 08068008759 or 08107355944
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August 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
How did you ever get a name like Isaiah?
You are born with the holy spirit, no need to ask such a question.
You will not receive a telephone call from the holy spirit.
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August 8, 2015 at 10:10 am
Like seriously??
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August 8, 2015 at 10:57 am
Seriously. Everybody is born with the Father living within aas well as the holy spirit, the person born is the Son/Daughter, the physical, visible S/he who will eventually give a physical, visible expression of an invisible self intimately identified with an invisible Father by the indwelling of the holy spirit. All there is of God is available to all to the person who is available to all there is of God. Here’s the description of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. it’s real easy Tina: And I know from your comments that you are smart enough to understand it.
Think of the Father like this;
THE FATHER
is like the Immune System ready to defend you and there’s nothing you can do to interfere with his work; it’s automatic: The immune system is a system of many biological structures and processes within an organism that protects against disease. To function properly, an immune system must detect a wide variety of agents, known as pathogens, from viruses to parasitic worms, and distinguish them from the organism’s own healthy tissue. In many species, the immune system can be classified into subsystems, such as the innate immune system versus the adaptive immune system, or humoral immunity versus cell-mediated immunity. Pathogens can rapidly evolve and adapt, and thereby avoid detection and neutralization by the immune system; however, multiple defense mechanisms have also evolved to recognize and neutralize pathogens. The sympathetic nervous system is one of the two main divisions of the autonomic nervous system, the other being the parasympathetic nervous system.The autonomic nervous system functions to regulate the body’s unconscious actions. The sympathetic nervous system’s primary process is to stimulate the body’s fight-or-flight response. It is, however, constantly active at a basic level to maintain homeostasis. The sympathetic nervous system is described as being complementary to the parasympathetic nervous system which stimulates the body to “rest-and-digest” or “feed and breed”.
THE HOLY SPIRIT
is like Memory so that you can grow up and learn hot and cold, up and down, day and night and by practice train up your senses in the discerment of good and evil and use your will to decide which you will accept. Which wolf to feed within for we are also just as capable of rejecting the kingdom of heaven within and accepting the KKingdom of Hell within as we see humanity play role both these dimensions of the human experience. All aspects of your sensory preceptions stay with you in the Memory.
Both the Father and the Holy Spirit are there with an undying, unlimited protectorate just for you, your own personal guardians from birth.
THE SON/DAUGHTER;
You let the Father do it, for the Holy Spirit you listen and heed the memory there for your protection and guide, learn from mistakes, get up whan you stumble and continue in that fashion;
for the immune system, wash your wounds, cleanse your wounds, bandage your wounds maintain your health with wisdom from your own guide and the wisdom imparted by others who have become advocates for your physical health, dentists, doctors, medicine, hospitals, paramedics, firefighters, 911 responders.
Treat and respect others as being born with the same capacity, the same Father, the Holy Spirit as yourself. It is worldewide and widespread but very individual and personal at the same time.
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August 8, 2015 at 11:07 am
i believe ,personally, that when it comes to tongues. that there may be only a select few languages. After i first started speaking tongues i started listening to others. and what they say. (i was at a youth camp) and for the next few days as kids and adults would speak in tongues i hared many of the same phrases. also true tongues is something that is EXTREMELY hard to copy. and I have a hard time doing it again. i have to be very deep in prayer and have a strong feeling of Gods presence.
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August 10, 2015 at 3:32 am
This a very worrying subject
I have posted a number of times but found out something recently.
I know a lady in our church who is the retired pastors wife. I have heard her speak “in another language” and she says the same r
Thing every time and I have known her for 20+ years. They have served the Lord faithfully.
Recently I put what she says in another language into Google search. It’s just one word she says and I was very shocked that it took me to a Porn site!
OK you may say I got the spelling wrong but putting the words into Google translate gave it the same sound but no translation
The Porn site seemed to indicate the name of a girl. I won’t give you what she says in case you search it!
So that is very worrying that this lady appears to be saying the name of someone on a Porn site. The word is also connected to Indian culture and the Porn site was based in Australia.
So what is this lady saying?
She is so genuine but what do in say to her?
“On your working some name off a Porn site and to do with Indian culture”
She would freak out.
So more and more questions.
Would the Holy Spirit give her the utterance of speaking a name off a Porn site and something connected with Indian culture.
Where is the “magnifying God”as in a Acts!
This is very very worrying
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August 10, 2015 at 3:53 am
Sorry for some of the spelling in last post.
Problem if you say you are speaking in another language but don’t know what you are saying how can you be certain its OK.
This lady has been saying “hara kandara” for years.
Check it out and see what you think. I’ve given you the words she says so even if you see the Porn site I have warned you not to click onto it!
Search it in Google and see what you think. I may be wrong.
It’s OK to say God will give you the real gift when you ask Him but if He has not given you the gift yet you “speak out in faith” then what you say may not be from the Holy Spirit even if you have asked.
We are told to pray for the interpretation if we speak in another language.
Don’t be fooled into thinking the devil can’t understand what you are saying.
Nothing in the Bible indicates this. It’s a known language. That’s what happened on Day of Pentecost. People understood because they spoke a known language.
This lady is speaking a known language but its meaning is far from maginfy God!!
Please can any one help.
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August 10, 2015 at 3:56 am
If you put the words ” harakandara ” you will get link to Porn site but if you put in “hara kandara” it will give you a lot of sites but not Porn site.
Check it out and let me know what you think!
Martyn
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August 10, 2015 at 9:30 am
Well MARTYN:
Let’s take the first words separately: Hara and then Kandara Sounds Japanese to me.
Hara in Oriental medicine
The region of the solar plexus or abdomen, believed to be the spiritual center of the soul and the body’s life processes; various types of pressure may be exerted on the abdomen in shiatsu to stimulate the flow of energy through the hara.
hara (hä·rä),
noun, a Japanese term that represents the abdomen, where the internal organs are housed.
2 DEFINITION(S) FROM VARIOUS SOURCES:
Kaṇḍarā，（f．） sinew，tendon Vin．I，91，322 （in cpd．kaṇḍara-cchinna one whose tendons （of the feet） have been cut）； Kvu 23，31； Vism．253，254 （where KhA 49 reads miñja）．（Page 179）
— or —
Kandara，(Sk．kandara) — 1．a cave，grotto，generally，on the slope or at the foot of a mountain Vin．II，76，146； used as a dwelling-place Th．1，602； J．I，205； III，172．‹-› 2．a glen，defile，gully D．I，71=A．II，210=Pug．59； A．IV，437； Miln．36； expld at DA．I，209 （as a mountainous part broken by the water of a river； the etym．is a popular one，viz．“kaṃ vuccati udakaṃ； tena dāritaṃ”）．k-padarasākhā A．I，243=II．240； PvA．29．（Page 186）
kaṇḍarā : (f.) tendon.
— or —
kandara : (m.) a grotto on the slope of a mountain. || kandarā (f.), a grotto on the slope of a mountain.
One might say that Harlot does not magnify God; yet here are 31 Bible Verses in the bible speaking about Harlots: Remember perception, discernment, context, motive.
Leviticus 19:29
Proverbs 7:25
Proverbs 2:16
Jeremiah 3:6-9
Deuteronomy 23:18
Deuteronomy 23:17-18
Isaiah 57:3
Jeremiah 3:6
Jeremiah 5:7
Hosea 2:5
Hosea 4:12
Ezekiel 23:5
Amos 8:14
Micah 1:7
Revelation 17:5-7
Jeremiah 3:3
Proverbs 9:14-18
Proverbs 7:12
Proverbs 29:3
Amos 2:7
Exodus 34:15-16
Proverbs 5:3-20
Leviticus 21:9
Genesis 38:13-20
Joshua 2:1-21
Judges 11:1
Judges 16:1
Hosea 1:2
Isaiah 23:15-17
Isaiah 1:21
Isaiah 57:7-9
I think you are playing with fire when you try to determine peoples’ motives for what they say and do; this is how people bear incorrect or worse false witness (because you cannot know) by gossiping about the possible “sins” and “motives” of other people.
Assume and presume both mean to believe something before it happens, but when you assume you’re not really sure. To assume is to suppose or believe something without any proof.
Frankly I would have no hesitation to go to the pastor’s wife and ask her what it means? if she knows? does anybody know? Then what’s the point if she doesn’t know; or, you might even go and ask the pastor. Knowledge is better than belief because only knowledge will set you free from your query and this particular knowledge cannot come from you, all you have is belief and belief is usually unreliable without knowledge or proof that confirms it. Remember the scripture “prove all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21 KJV) SO, “ask” the Pastor’s wife and the Pastor…..”and it shall be given” otherwise you are bouncing your brain around like a rubber ball on an elastic stapled to a ping pong bat and going nowhere.
Let us know what the Pastor and/or his wife says about the matter; OMG. never fear asking about such matters.
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August 10, 2015 at 9:40 am
Happiness is always within reach.
Enjoy life and don’t make it complicated.
Life is too short.
Work as if it was your first day.
Forgive as soon as possible.
Love without boundaries.
Laugh without control and never stop smiling.
Pray (to others if you have to) for the answers to all your questions. Don’t speculate about motives! Prosecutors do, that’s their job; doesn’t make it right, that’s what the Judge (or Jury) must decide…. with evidence, not belief.
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August 10, 2015 at 9:44 am
I’d leave it to be honest. Don’t ask the pastor nor his wife. God bless.
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August 10, 2015 at 9:56 am
To live in darkness of imagination is what too many Christians do; they wallow around in the darkness of belief; Jesus said ASK, SEEK, KNOCK and YOU’LL BE GIVEN, WILL FIND, IT WILL BE OPENED.
Tina’s advice is not a God Bless, God Bless is light; it’s called a demon curse that keeps you blind.
Tina, I thought you were smart but you’re not that light bright;
follow Jesus and you are a light unto yourself and others;
follow Tina and your candle is under a tub hidden and tucked away out of sight.
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August 10, 2015 at 12:50 pm
And your retort is very Christian. Bravo.
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August 10, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Tina:
I am not a Christian and I don’t give Christian retorts. Both my suggestion and my correction are Christ-like. I gave you two scriptures to support the chastisment to you as well as the suggestion for Martyn, one from Thessolonians and one from Jesus. You are not complaining about me; you’re complaining about Jesus by disregarding the quotes I provided. Can you give me a scripture that supports your suggestion to Martyn? from Jesus? from anywhere?
Christians have little discernment when it comes to Bible generally and slim to none when it comes to Jesus in particular.
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August 10, 2015 at 2:57 pm
You have all missed the point.
Why would this lady only say “hara kandar” for the 20 years I have known when she speaks in the Church whether it’s worship or praying for people?
Is that the only utterance the Holy Spirit is able to give her?
Perhaps He is not giving her the utterance at all and in her desperation to be accepted is just making it up and has said the same all these years and is convicted she is speaking in tongues. You know speak it out in faith!!
Come on folk let’s get real and stop pretending.
To say the Holy Spirit has given her the utterance all these years is a bit far fetched to me. Come on be honest are not you a bit sceptical? An utterance that seems to have no meaning dispute our friend explaining it may be Japanese.
About a possible harlot and Japanese medicine.
Come on you have to do better than think she is actually speaking an utterance given by the Holy Spirit.
All these years the same words every week???
Her Pastor husband is the same. Just keeps saying ” que r a tunder que r a sunder. O shall a sander”
Please I am not being critical. This is the facts. That’s all he says even in worship or praying over people.
I just think they were so desperate to speak in tongues that they said whatever word came into mind and believed that got it.
But anyone can “speak in tongues”
“Salla endoe shan natorka de sora” and there you have it sounds good but I just made it up on my keyboard.
If I said this in on Sunday in church no one be any wiser. They would just think I was speaking I tongues
The truth is there somewhere!!!
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August 10, 2015 at 3:39 pm
Martyn:
My suggestion to you had nothing to do with speaking in tongues; it was only a suggestion to get your own self together instead of speculating about something that seems to be driving you crazier. Knowledge will set you free regardless of what you believe about anything.
Abbra Abbra Cadabbra, I want to reach out and grab ya.
You have a problem. There is no such thing as speaking in tongues so get over it. Read Post 112 from Son of Man to understand the fake and phoney in the Christian Church and what the speaking in tongues in the Bible is all about, not the Christian version because Christians are so easily duped, just wonder how Peter Popoff is still on the air selling miracle spring water so everyone can get money. what a farce yet Christians are supporting him with all their tithes and donatins. yada yada yada Speaking in your language is all speaking in tongues really means.
They’re all daft. There Martyn are you feeling better now.? HUH?
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August 11, 2015 at 3:49 am
Well this whole speaking in tongues is a complete mystery to me.
If only people would be honest and admit present day speaking in other languages bares no resemblance to what happened in Acts 2.
Pentecostals love to claim they have what happened on Day of Pentecost but it never happens in todays churches as it did then.
The languages spoken were understood and people were amazed that unlearned men were able to speak in a language they had never learned but the people understood.
Be honest that very rairly happens in our chuches today.
Can anyone give an up to date account where you have spoken in a language and someone from another country has heard you in their own language?
Have you ever had this year someone in your church speak in german, french, polish, romanian, spanish, danish, swedish, finish, dutch (I am from Europe)?
I guss the answer will be no
So how can we claim we have what they had on Day of Pentecost?
And where do we find instruction for the whole church to speak out in other languages together.
Our pastor used to say lets all speak out in tongues ” key aliba skindy aliba yandy” over and over again week after week and year after year.
Yet the instruction from Paul in 1 Corithians is clear that if the whole congregation is speaking in another language and a visitor is there they will say you are mad. He says one or 2 at most 3 and must be interpreted but oh no we do it all together with no interpretation.
And the trouble is it never sounds a proper language.
Even people who are expert at languages can find no pattern and sounds that equates to a known language.
What a great sign that would be if in your church people spoke the language and someone recognised it.
But its always a jumble of sounds like ” sucor gamandor de wendo calmanor secora” but I made it up. I used to speak in tongues in church but came to relalise I was making it up but no one ever regonized that I was.
I used to be an elder and would pray out from the front in tongues but no guessed I was making it up.
Now if people spoke in languages of today that would be amazing? I cannot speak German but I can recognize it and most European language but as no one speaks these languages in tongues its so easy to fake and know one knows because I reckon unknown to them they are making it up to.
Because people are so desperate to be accepted in church if you go to a pentecostal or charasmatic church and you dont speak in tongues you feel odd if you are asked if you speak in tongues.
People are told to speak out the first thing that comes into your mind. just open your mouth and speak.
So we close our eyes desperate to speak out and we hear in our mind ” tecora de porta cam sa leba” and so we speak it out and YES we have it. We keep repeating it with more boldness and “yes brother I have got what they had on Day of P.
But the sad fact is our minds have made it up and we have deceived ourselves in thinking we have it.
Its ok for you folk that have “got it”. some of us have to make some sence of what is going on when we havnt “got it”
I have been to receiving meetings, hands laid on me, tarried, waited, opened mouth, begged, prayed, been open, you name it I have done it even done nothing and still I have not spoken as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.
So you may understand why I am slightly skeptical when people keep saying the same thing over and over again sounding nothing like modern day languages, no one ever speaking known languages.
We will all know who was right when we meet Jesus face to face. When we see Him we will be like Him. Thats enough to keep me going as one day “tongues will cease”
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August 11, 2015 at 9:52 am
If you met Jesus face to face how would you recognize me?
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August 11, 2015 at 10:34 am
How would you recognise me? Not sure I understand your question.
Martyn
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August 11, 2015 at 10:40 am
Martyn:
If Jesus asked you the same question how would you know it was Jesus asking the question or not and how would you know it was Jesus or not you were face to face with?
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August 11, 2015 at 10:41 am
By what means do you think you would recognize the Son of Man?
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August 11, 2015 at 10:43 am
Jesus’ own disciples did not recognize him after the crucifixion, why do you think they did not recognize him then and they spent time with him?
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August 11, 2015 at 10:56 am
I can only answer from the Word of God as that is our only point of reference.
Beloved now we are the Sons of God and it has not appeared as yet what we will be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.
1John 3 v 2
And they shall see His face and His name will be on their forehead
Revelation 22 v 4
Other than what God says I don’t know
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August 11, 2015 at 11:13 am
Martyn:
Do you know what “His name will be on their forehead” means?
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August 11, 2015 at 11:58 am
Names are a means of identification. A bride takes on the name of her husband.
As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bride of Christ we take His name on our foreheads showing we are identified with Him for ever.
His love for us is so great that He is willing to share His name with us.
That’s how I understand it anyway but there may be more interpretations.
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August 11, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Martyn:
I am trying to ask you not so much about the name by itself but about the name “on the forehead”. Do you think this name is printed on your forehead, do wives print their husbands names on their foreheads, is the Mark of the Beast printed on the forehead? Do you think it is merely a metaphor or an actual name printed the forehead?
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August 11, 2015 at 12:21 pm
Not sure. Guess its a metaphor. Will have to wait and see!
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August 11, 2015 at 12:37 pm
OKay Martyn: Never be afraid to say, “I don’t know”.
It is a metaphor in the same way that Revelation expresses the metaphor about the Mark, Name and Number(666) of the beast written on the forehead or on the right hand, also a metaphor.
Think of the metaphor: The bible has a lot of metaphor meanings: many people who know the bible textually are not in tune with the bible metaphorically and miss more than enough of the truth.
Jesus was his name but Christ was his mindset, anointed, messianic, the champion, an attitude, a disposition toward the Father to help others.
In the day that you have the Name; that is to say, the metaphor(name) for attitude, for disposition on your forehead, that is to say the metaphor(forehead) for “mindset” then the face you see that radiates the same attitude, the same disposition, and that Christ-like appearance will be on the face you see the Son of Man to be; and, when the face of the one you see, looks upon your face and sees the same radiance of Christ-like attitude and disposition from your mindset, he shall see you as the Son of Man to be because both you and he will see him as he is by each other and you’ll be like him.
That is the day when the first scripture you mentioned “we are the Sons of God”……..and……”when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.”
BECAUSE AS HE IS, WE ARE and as we are, HE IS; therefore, we are to each other, AS HE IS. The Jesus in you will be no different than the Jesus in the other and vice versa because the both of you will reflect his attitude, his disposition. The Christ-like that is in you will be seen by you, in others and by others seeing it in you.
And the other thing you need to know is that this is not something in the hereafter; this is something available in the herenow. You don’t need to die to know this; this is true life for the living and available for the (alive but walking-dead) dead. The resurrection is not for the buried dead but for the walking-dead.
“He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.”
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August 11, 2015 at 1:03 pm
Thanks
Martyn
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August 11, 2015 at 1:09 pm
Thank you SonofMan but a couple of minutes before you replied to Martyn, Martyn did acknowledge that he didn’t know (he said ‘not sure’ which sounds to me that ‘he is not sure’) and that he thinks it is a metaphor (he said ‘guess it’s a metaphor’ which sounds to me that ‘he guesses it is a metaphor’). Can we now focus on the subject please?
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August 11, 2015 at 6:26 pm
Hey Danny, great to hear from you but now I would like to ask you “what do you mean in the sentence: “Can we now focus on the subject please?” Which is ……….?
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August 11, 2015 at 10:24 pm
Got a mouse, a hand and a pair of eyes SonofMan?
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August 12, 2015 at 11:17 am
Danny:
Martyn and I have been focusing on the subject, Have you? This year? Last year?
Maybe, I suppose, I think, I guess, possibly, probably, not sure, so it must be Yes! “We” may certainly focus on the subject. I’m waiting to hear your focus on the subject, do you have a focus? Do you want to share it, assuming you have one? Maybe, I suppose, I think, I guess, possibly, probably, not sure? or perhaps you are role playing like an “unsaid” editor?
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August 28, 2015 at 12:58 pm
All of my life and since the start of my christian life in 2010 I have witnessed only one person speaking in real tongues. She was the one who led me to Christ. She said, she simply asked God to give her the gifts of the Holy Spirit he had for her and tongues is one she ended up with. The funny thing is, as far as I remember she believed that tongues had no purpose any more and she didn’t want to have it. Many times she prayed to God, if these tongues were not from him that he would take them away. He didn’t. And like I said, one time I witnessed it, and it was no doubt a real language, and the sweetness and presence of God was surrounding us, I could feel the blessing while she spoke. Then I asked her what she said and she said she didn’t know. Neither could I identify it, but it had a beautiful ring.
Just a real spoken language doesn’t qualify either, I have heard of people that they found out somebody spoke in tongues but cursed and blasphemed God. So if you have received a gift of tongues make sure u know where it came from. And if someone is speaking in real tongues, make sure u know what the person says or at least have someone who can discern the spirits.
I don’t like all the fake tongues à la Heidi Baker’s “shaka baba” out there that I encountered online and in personal groups aswell. Often I don’t feel comfortable as I see the “false tongues” as a form of practicing occultism or worshipping another God. There is no unity in the spirit if someone prays in false tongues to something else than YHWH.
https://redeemedhippiesplace.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/the-word-shaka/
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August 31, 2015 at 12:47 am
Hi. Interesting post. I was hearing Heidi Baker shouting out “Shaka baba” just this week at River Camp in the UK run by Elim Pentecostal church.
There are videos on YouTube of her saying this 2 or 3 years ago and she is still saying it.
But what does it mean?
If you search on internet you get various interpretations from Japanese mythology, Indian culture musicians and a very nice one that says “worship daddy” supposedly.
Please I am not being critical but for someone in public meeting to be shouting out “Shaka baba, shandi and shabba” numerous times with no hint of interpretation just seems so out of order. Everyone laughs as she shouts “Shaka baba” did I miss something? What was funny?
The problem is that she can get away with anything and no one will challenge her. She talks a lot about a surrendered life to God which is very commendable and she is doing a great work in Africa of which she is very keen to let everyone know she has planted over 1000 churches.
It almost seems that because her life is surrendered to God and God has control over her that whatever she says (Shaka baba) or does is from God and we cannot challenge it or we are challenging God.
But are not we told to “test every Spirit”?
Is Heidi Baker excluded?
What Spirit is causing her to shout out ” Shaka baba” with no interpretation which Paul was very keen in 1 Corinthians 14 to ensure an interpretation is made so all can be edified.
Are you edified when she shouts out “Shaka baba” in a very aggressive way?
So no one challenges her as to why she says it and we are all expected to go along with it because she is a lovely lady serving God amongst the poor in Africa and has raised 100s from the dead!
Please believe me I have seen and heard it only this week on 27th and 28th August this past week.
So if you have the gift of interpretation what does “Shaka baba” mean?
If someone in your church on Sunday or whenever shouts out “Shaka baba” and you have the gift of interpretation then please what does it mean.
You either have the gift or you haven’t.
If you have then tell us and contact Heidi Baker and tell her.
And if it does mean “worship daddy” then we can accept she is saying “worship the Father”
No problem with that but why make a big thing of it by shouting it out in a very aggressive way and everyone laughts.
What’s funny about worshipping the Father?
Please again I am not being critical ….I am just presenting the facts as I witnessed it with my own eyes and ears this week in the UK.
Are we not allowed any discernment any more?
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September 1, 2015 at 10:26 am
Martyn:
Stop attending those weird events where you learn nothing but expected to believe anything………….
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September 1, 2015 at 3:50 pm
I’m afraid you do not appear to understand what Rivercamp is
It’s not a weird event but a great place for families to get together on a farm in a beautiful area in the UK.
People can camp and meetings are held in a large bigtop tent.
We have been attending for the last 10 years as we do not live far from it.
Because they may have speakers that say things I don’t understand dosnt make it weird.
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September 1, 2015 at 6:14 pm
I’m afraid you don’t understand what Paul said about someone speaking things nobody understands:
So where does it get you, all this speaking in tongues no one understands? It doesn’t help believers, and it only gives unbelievers something to gawk at. Plain truth-speaking, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart of believers and doesn’t get in the way of unbelievers. If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can?
If I don’t address you plainly with some insight or truth or proclamation or teaching, what help am I to you? If musical instruments—flutes, say, or harps—aren’t played so that each note is distinct and in tune, how will anyone be able to catch the melody and enjoy the music? If the trumpet call can’t be distinguished, will anyone show up for the battle?
But when I’m in a church assembled for worship, I’d rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish.
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September 17, 2015 at 1:02 pm
I speak in tongues, I have been speaking in tongues since June of this year, but I do not sound like the ones that you talk about here on this website I have no r’s I have know lalala’s and I don’t sound like people I know in church. I know mine is really I have know control as to what comes out and some times it goes so fast I feel my mouth trying to keep up with it all especially when praying over someone. After I received the gift people came to my mind that needed praying over, and sometime I will get a urgent to pray over someone. I had a women who was my first person I was told to pray over, I asked her if she believed God could heal her. She said yes of course, I have know this women for 25 yrs, for the last 20 yrs she was always in serve pain from migraines to back pain, she also had fibroid myalgia.I think that is how you spell it. Anyway we went to a quite room while the praise band Sang. I closed my eyes and the words just came out, but I did not know what I was saying my hands went under her shirt and went at will on her back she said when we got done it felt like Gods hands were all over her back and that they were hitting pain spots on her back. And that she felt better, so I waited a couple of days to check on her to see how she felt, she said ok. I told her how I was being attacked by satan, I was burned severe I had dreams of me praying in tongue so much I was exhausted and feeling over whelmed and thought I should not be speaking in tongue. I rebutted satan I then went back to bed. After I told her she started praying for me over the phone, she said after she prayed over me her pain was completely gone, so God blesses both of us and her pain was gone for about 2 1/2 months-last week which was Sundy Sept 13 she did not look well and said her lower back was killing her and her and her husband were going on vacation and she had a 6 hrs drive she tried to get in to a doctor to get some pain meds but couldn’t get in and was so worried about her trip, so another women and I took her to a quite place to pray over her again the other women also spoke in tongue. I started speaking in tongue and again put my hands over her lower back and she would say oh my God something just popped about three different times in her lower back, after that she said the pain is completely gone. I am not sure what gifts I have been giving, but I do know for sure one is speaking in tongue. I believe the tongue is for God not man and it does say that in the bible. so just believe!! In faith, and do not question Gods Word.
Thank You LORD!!!
Sorry for such a long but true story!!!
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September 17, 2015 at 4:58 pm
Sidey:
What we call this down on the farm is “Caca Del Toro” and there is absolutely nothing you say that confirms anything you say. Give us reality or give us proof….We call this Bullshist.
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September 17, 2015 at 8:40 pm
Sorry you feel that way, some people need proof. Like you and people that really do speak in tongues like me can not prove anything to people with your closed mine, because you can’t speak in tongues does not me that those of us who can are faking it. I told a true story that I thought those who spoke in tongues would appreciate a true story, because I am sure they have one too! and people like me would enjoy hear others telling theirs, but you try to intimidate people to where they will not say anything, because they are afraid of your back lashing I will not do a debate with you of my gift. God know the truth and that is all I have to answer too. My story is true and those who have witness it know it to be true and those who really speak in tongues know the truth.
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September 18, 2015 at 8:43 am
Sidney:
Sorry but I can’t be hypnotized either. Others say they can be and bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken and you can believe you are a chicken but what I need to see first are a few eggs; then, I’ll believe you are a chicken. Write what you say and let’s try to make sense of the language you claim to speak otherwise it is gibberish. When Paul talks about speaking in tongues he is talking about other languages, foreign languages from other countries, Spanish, French, Russian, Afghani, Arab, dialects that others can understand; then, you speak in tongues. Paul said
Acts 2: 6-12Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites;
Visitors from Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene;
Immigrants from Rome, both Jews and proselytes;
Even Cretans and Arabs!
“They’re speaking our languages, describing God’s mighty works!”
12 Their heads were spinning; they couldn’t make head or tail of any of it. They talked back and forth, confused: “What’s going on here?”
That is the tongues the bible defines.
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September 18, 2015 at 8:51 am
Glossolalia or (speaking in tongues) is the fluid vocalizing of speech-like syllables that lack any readily comprehended meaning, in some cases as part of religious practice. Some consider it as a part of a sacred language. It is a common practice amongst Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity. BUT THIS IS NOT THE BIBLE DEFINITION OF SPEAKING TONGUES.
PAUL SPEAKING 1 CORINTHIANS 14
When I’m in a church assembled for worship, I’d rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish…..Religious Glossolalia !
If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can?
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November 14, 2015 at 8:07 pm
Well for me, I have just experienced the Holy Spirit but I wasn’t able to speak in tongues yet, BUT while I was having this experience, I can’t control myself, I was like crying, shouting then laughing but the point is, I was thinking to stop but I couldn’t and I was thinking if my shouting was too loud, but I can’t control it. The same is true with my aunt, when she experienced the Holy Spirit, she wasn’t able to speak in tongues that very moment. Today I am still continuing asking the Lord for the gift of tongues.
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November 15, 2015 at 7:56 pm
HUH?
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December 16, 2015 at 11:22 am
Stop talking about it and just do it, if you are able. God would not have given you the gift if He didn’t want you to use it.
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January 15, 2016 at 1:26 pm
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:39
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 1 Corinthians 14:18
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February 4, 2016 at 4:28 am
I was filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and it was wonderful. It poured out from my belly like rivers of living water with no effort on my part at all. And it sounded fluent. This was years ago. About 13 years ago. Since then I have been out of the will of God but I still love to worship Him and I’ve rededicated my life to Him but I notice my tongues are different. More of an effort to speak but I feel the urge to speak in my spirit. Can you lose this precious gift from God? And if so can I recieve it again. There is so much power in speaking in your true heavenly language I would hate to lose it.
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February 10, 2016 at 12:42 am
Charlene, no, I don’t think it is something you lose. The Bible says the gifts of God are without repentance.
Jason
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February 10, 2016 at 12:25 pm
If you or anybody else cannot understand your language then it is from the imaginative fantasy called fakery. When it speaks about “tongues” in the New Testament it speaks of how every man understood what was being said in his own language therefore it was not a heavenly tongue but a human language.
Acts2 …5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking, Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
In other words; and ever since then, people try to mimic with syllabic nonsense that nobody, even themselves can understand what they are uttering.
You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.
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February 10, 2016 at 2:09 pm
That is the exactly the problem I have.
Why is it when ever we hear speaking in tongues its never a known language. I live in the UK and and only speak English but I can recognise French, German, Polish etc even if I do not understand what is being said.
But when someone in church speakers in tongues its never sounds a known language??????
Why????
Has anyone on this forum recently heard someone speak in tongues and recognised what language was being spoken?
We never get in the Bible “its a heavenly prayer language”
It’s not there.
Paul says ” IF I speak in tongues of men and angels…..IF I give my body to be burnt……. IF I have all knowledge but do not have love I am nothing.
He didn’t say he spoke the language if angels. He says IF…
He desire was that all spoke in tongues or spoke in other languages.
Note language. Not jumbled syllables like “Key aliba skindie aliba yandi” which I have heard in our church.
What does skindie mean??
What does yandi mean??
We never hear known languages and I wonder why.
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February 10, 2016 at 4:29 pm
Martyn:
It is all fake but the clerics call believers mushrooms because they keep believers (good righteous seeking, door knocking, looking for truth kind of believers) in the dark and feed them lots of manure; and they don’t have too mush-room to move away from the nonsense that have kept the Church and the few con men clerics in financial security for the last 10,000 centuries!
You have to ask yourself how many castles can one live in at the same time. That’s the power of money in the Church. The Vatican is so wealthy its assets are reputed to be uncountable, unknowable…..more riches than can be audited!
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March 7, 2016 at 8:12 am
Here is my take on the situation. Most people, including some on this post, will doubt the people who actually speaks in tongues. You have to be in the presence of someone who actually does and let me tell you, you will definitely know if it real or not because you can actually feel the authenticity. There are people in singing gospel music recordings and concerts, Pastors on the pulpit, who all in my opinion should keep the tongue talking out of their recordings and sermons because they are indeed fake a high majority of them. Most of them say the same thing in repetition with words such as Howley Sabbochia etc.. although I’m sure they mean well, but please already. I have an aunt who is 93 years old at the time of this writing, a close relative who recently passed away in her 50’s and some pastor at a funeral i cannot remember, are the only three people in my neck of the woods who I ever heard speaking in tongue in my life and I am constantly around church atmosphere, I am a choir and musical director for 35 years. You cannot even repeat what actual tongue talker said because the words does not repeat and the words spoken is not of the human worldly mindset, you can feel that and you feel it is a language but not of this world. It’s a language you never heard and from what I heard cannot be remembered, its spiritual and not of the flesh. If I were some of the people on this post who simply dismiss it, then you are sadly mistaken, The tongue speaking is real to the ones who possess the gift, but there are far too many who do not possess the gift and is acting like they do, they are not to be trusted as legit, now that is where the BS lies, but to say its not real, let me tell you whether you want to hear it or not. God is Real, Jesus is Real. God put it there like this, your human mind cannot and will not have the same level of understanding and knowledge that God has, otherwise, you would be able to create the heavens and the earth. Its all about this unexplained word that man has serious issues getting a grip on and that my friends is “faith”.
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March 8, 2016 at 2:18 pm
JOhn Comeaux:
All you need to do is read Acts to know that the speaking in tongues was people speaking in languages that were not their mother tongue but was the mother tongue of others who heard them. Speaking in tongues simply means speaking in a human language that is not your mother tongue. Acts clearly tell you that this was not some gibberish that nobody can understand…if nobody can understand it as a human language IT IS FAKE.
Glossolalia or speaking in tongues, according to linguists, is the fluid vocalizing of speech-like syllables that lack any readily comprehended meaning, in some cases as part of religious practice in which it is believed to be a divine language unknown to the speaker.
Today’s learning to speak in tongues is advertised as:”Learn & Master New Languages with Rosetta Stone.”
HERE IS WHAT THRE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IT:
There were many Jews staying in Jerusalem just then, devout pilgrims from all over the world. When they heard the sound, they came on the run. Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites;
Visitors from Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene;
Immigrants from Rome, both Jews and proselytes;
Even Cretans and Arabs!
“They’re speaking our languages, describing God’s mighty works!”
12 Their heads were spinning; they couldn’t make head or tail of any of it. They talked back and forth, confused: “What’s going on here?”
13 Others joked, “They’re drunk on cheap wine.”
Those people who mutter gibberish, not in human language that can be understood as Acts describe are people made stupid and phoney by religion.
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March 9, 2016 at 12:59 am
Very well put!
Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 14 v 10 ” Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world , yet none of them are without meaning”
So if what someone is saying has no meaning it’s very doubtful they are speaking a language just a number of words made up from the alphabet like
” Cusa Banda d la vita a sanda de unda that”
I just made that up but sounds good with a slight accent and add “We love You Lord” at the beginning.
If you live in a big city that has a lot of people from other countries and in a crowded shopping area you can soon hear the different languages even if you cannot understand them.
But if you hear someone speaking in tongues it’s always the same style. It’s usually repetitive and lacks flow, accent, feeling, construction of sentence.
It’s also been noted that wherever you come from your “tongue” will use phrases that are familiar to your own dialect and language. That’s odd if if it’s supposed to be a heavenly language.
And it’s never a modern European or Eastern language. Has anyone heard anyone speak French or German when they have been speaking in tongues. It’s always some obscure African dialect that knowone has heard so it can never be verified.
As the previous post made speaking in tongues is a langues spoken that is not your mother tongue but familiar and understood to those that the Holy Spirit knows will understand and they will be amazed hearing about the great things of God in their own language!
Now that’s a sign!
But what do we get? Obscure ancient languages. Never a modern known language. Just “Shakababa shandi”
Phrases that know one has a clue what they are on about and different interpretations when it’s supposedly interpreted.
And there is just nothing about it being a heavenly language.
Paul says “If I speak with the tongues of men and angles”
He didn’t say he did anymore than he knew all mysteries and knowedge and gave his body to be burnt. He is just saying IF he did all that and had no love he gains nothing.
Paul desires that they all speak in tongues and he thanked God he spoke in tongues more than all so he certainly used the gift in private as in the church he wanted people to understand and be edified.
So what’s going on??
Are folk being deceived thinking they are speaking in tongues.
If it doesn’t follow the biblical pattern dispite how much you “feel” it’s from God then be wary.
In the Lakeland Revival with Todd Gently we has “Shika boom bang bam bam bam”
Now please those with the gift of interpretations what does that mean.
For those who know Heidi Baker she shouts out “Shaka baba shandi” Interpretations please!!!
Remember you do not know when you are deceived
It’s only when something is shown you do you realise.
Eve was not aware she was being deceived until her eyes were opened and she realised she was naked.
Gods Word will open your eyes to truth.
If your experience of speaking in tongues doesn’t follow the biblical pattern i.e speaking a known earthly language then you need to ask where is it coming from?
The Holy Spirit gives the utterance. It’s interesting to note that the Holy Spirit gave the disciples the languages of the devout God fearing Jews so that were amazed hearing the wonders of God in there own language!
Does that ever happened today?
Who on this forum can give an up to date account of this happening?
We say wechave what they had in the beginning. But this never happens.
So listen to yourself when you speak in tongues. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 v 13 ” ….try to excel in gifts that build up the church. For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says”
Does this ever happen.
Ask people what they say and they don’t know but God says pray so that you may interpret what you say so you can edify others.
But all we get is “Shaka baba shandi” shouted out and no interpretations.
None of us are perfect but something surely isn’t right.
Oh to be able to pray and sing with the spirit with the genuine utterance of the Holy Spirit!!!
That’s my prayer for today.
Every blessing people in your search for the truth.
It’s out there!!!
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March 23, 2016 at 1:58 pm
shaka baba shandi tie tie my tie i went to bi a hondie kira masu
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March 23, 2016 at 3:17 pm
Interpretation please or isn’t there one??!!
Martyn
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March 24, 2016 at 9:16 am
Martyn:
Here is the interpretation.
“Stand back as I do up my tie for I’m off to purchase a new car and that’s a Honda for the eye”…lol
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March 24, 2016 at 9:58 am
Ha ha!!
I’m afraid that’s what a lot of modern day speaking in tongues in our churches is like.
If only folk would be honest and listen to themselves speaking in tongues. But no they are told to speak out in faith the first thing that comes into your mind!
But I thought the mind was not involved and you spoke as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance so what has speaking out the first thing that comes into you mind got to do with it.
Just speak it out Brother!!
You can only speak if the Holy Spirit gives you the utterance
If the Holy Spirit has not given you the utterance but your desperate to be accepted as someone who speaks in tongues then your mind will make anything up and it will sound a sort of language like Revelator proves.
Like” She came on a Honda” was going around church once in UK. Say that fast with a slight accent and add Jesus Jesus and people with think you have received.
You cannot force the Holy Spirit to give you the utterance and then subconsciously make it up and belive you have it.
Where is the Bible dies it tell us to “Say the first thing that comes into your mind?”
They began to speak in other languages as the Holy Spirit enabled them (or gave the utterance).
He gave languages that were recognised by the devout Jews from various nations.
They were languages spoken by the people of that time not some ancient dialect that no one has ever heard of.
But today do we ever hear German, French, Spanish, or languages in the East?
Often, sometimes, rarely, never???
We get plenty of “Shaka baba shandi shekas” but no one can tell us what it means!!!!
We may know one day!!
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March 24, 2016 at 10:27 am
The Tongues Poem:
She was handy as dandy when it came talking back,
With a mop and a broom she tidied the shack.
Abra Cadabra she shouted out loud
And the church congregation
Was awed as a crowd.
As they fell on their knees she shouted the more;
Many were spooked and ran out of the door.
Then she alone stood there laughing
At the folly of men
And exclaimed in a sigh, said not Yah way
It’s my way, Amen.
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April 24, 2016 at 9:50 pm
I myself is a living witness that there are people who speak in tongues with a repetitive one syllable, and yet it is legit.The first time I spoke in tongues, I just found my tongue moving involuntarily, I didn’t plan it or think of what sound to produce, It just happened unexpectedly. The Holy Spirit move in us in different ways. And can make us speak in tongues in the way that He wants us to speak and we cannot tell just by observing someone if it’s fake or not, for we cannot assess or measure how the Holy Spirit works in each one of us.
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April 24, 2016 at 10:44 pm
Someone who just says “food” over and over again isn’t speaking in English, and someone who just says one sound over and over again is not speaking in a heavenly language by the Spirit. It doesn’t take a miracle to make up a sound and repeat it over and over again. So count me skeptical, but I would not believe that was truly tongues. If it is…great. I would happily be wrong. But if there is to be any test at all for the legitimacy of someone’s claims to speak in tongues, I think the test of multiple and varied sounds is pretty basic.
Jason
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June 23, 2016 at 11:35 pm
I often think I’m making it up and am told it is received by faith and not doubt. I feel like it’s the same sounds over and sounds I’ve heard others use. Am I faking it or is the enemy trying to keep me from using it. There have been times when I wasn’t thinking about it and different sounds came out but it has been rare and in a very anointed atmosphere. Sometimes I think the enemy is using my mind to keep me from seeking the real deal.
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June 24, 2016 at 1:29 am
Listen to this clip in which Bishop C.H. Mason preaches. It is at 3:37 and 6:45 where it becomes interesting. While he is preaching the Holy Spirit seems to genuinely lead him into speaking in tongues. Mason does not seem to control it:
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June 24, 2016 at 10:20 pm
Danny:
I think Mason is not speaking anything spiritual here although he does use a lot of repetition in a trancelike ritualistic way typical of religion in general and Baptist congregations in particular.
To your references of being led by the Holy Spirit at 3:37 and 6:45, I believe Mason is using the English language with a twist of ebonic accent as well as mixing phrases from his Africa dialect. Remember Mason was born in 1864, never attended school and became a preacher when he was 29 years old. Four years before Mason was born Abraham Lincoln was elected president – Nov 06, 1860
It should be noted that while the majority of enslaved Africans were brought to British North America between 1720 and 1780. By 1820, nearly four Africans for every one European African had crossed the Atlantic. About four out of every five females that traversed the Atlantic were from Africa.
The decade 1821 to 1830 saw over 80,000 people a year leaving Africa in slave ships. Well over a million more – one tenth of the volume carried off in the slave trade era – followed within the next twenty years which is the time period Mason’s parents may have arrived.
Slaves had their own African Language so it is not unreasonable to assume that some of that dialect crept into Mason’s preaching in a very fluid way that might sound genuine and you’d be right; because his African Dialect would have been his “mother” tongue he learned along with English from the slave master.
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June 25, 2016 at 3:47 am
Thanks LeoTheGreater.
One more thing: at 8:52 Mason seems to speak in German. I speak German and there is one word which he speaks in a truly german way. That specific word is difficult for english speaking people to pronounce. You can argue it’s coincidence – and it could be – but I recognized it immediately because it is a very characteristic word.
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June 25, 2016 at 7:45 am
Danny:
I can’t really make out the german sounding words but the first one he says at 8:46 sounds phonetically like “loco de pill denight” (probably all one word) but it follows from the previous repetitious English phrase @ 8:46 that says “Jesus, wisdom for tonight”. The german sounding word seems to have been made to rhyme with “for tonight”.
About the only word I know in german that sounds something like the suffix I hear in Mason’s repetition, is “Gesundheit” for “Bless you” when someone sneezes…..lol …..the only few other words I hear: Chancellor (Kanzler) Angela Merkel….
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June 25, 2016 at 7:52 am
First he says 8:37 (Jesus wisdom for tonight) followed @8:42 by (Jesus, god’s gift to all) and then the (….de pill deneit)
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June 25, 2016 at 8:35 am
“Bisher” at 8:53, pronounced “bis-hear”, spoken with a german accent.
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July 4, 2016 at 11:53 pm
Thank you for posting this article. I’ve recently received this ability and it is so awesome! My prayer life went from a dull and dutiful experience to an “I can’t wait to read the bible and pray” experience. Now, I’m conscious that there is another being inside me so I try to walk the walk even more! I’m so thankful. Also, like the author said.. I can speak in tongues while thinking of something else to do so it’s different a separate event. When I’m reading scripture, the tongue goes off sometimes! I also have a sense that the Holy Spirit has a personality/character. I hope the Lord uses me for His Will and to remove me out of the equation. I’m 36 now and I only wish I gave my life to Christ earlier so I could have done better work for Him. I notice a great change however; in my heart. Some days, I just feel so filled with Love. I don’t even have the energy nor desire to be apart of anything that’s not edifying Christ. Only thing is… I still am in the flesh so I still have to fight but now I just have a bigger reason to overcome. I thank God for this awareness/indwelling.
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July 5, 2016 at 5:07 am
Hallelujah Free 😀
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August 16, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Let me first preface this post by making it clear that it is not written with any deliberate intention of offending anyone who practices glossolalia (a/k/a ‘speaking in tongues’).
As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia from both a linguistic and cultural point of view. My primary concentration was on the linguistic aspect of this phenomenon. What follows is extracted from what was a much longer post – I have tried to edit it to be as brief as possible, but it’s still a bit long….presented in two parts.
The results of my study (as well as many I’ve read) can be summed up as follows:
Results were rather straightforward from which only one reasonable conclusion may be drawn: glossolalia in and of itself is simply an advanced form of subconscious word-play or “free-vocalization”, consisting of only those sounds found in the speaker’s native language (and any language they may have been exposed to); anyone can learn to produce it relatively easily. Glossolalia only has specific significance in a cultural or religious context where it is part of that cultural or religious belief system’s practice. In these instances, with the possible exception of Christian glossolalia, it is viewed as a tool (with which to connect to the deity) rather than a means (by which the deity communicates to man). Certain forms of schizophrenia will present with glossolalia – this is an example glossolalia in a non-cultural context.
Ermaneglossia (a/k/a “interpretation of tongues”), which in most cases goes hand in hand with the glossolalia, can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of what is known as ‘direct spirit channeling’. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. It can be done instantly by the practitioner – i.e. there’s no ‘preparation’ that needs to be done beforehand. As in other traditions that practice channeling, the method/tool used to initiate the process is not necessarily related to the actual ‘message’(the glossa). Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two very different things; however, it really boils down to semantics – from every description given by Christian practitioners I have read or been told – both Christian and non-Christian practitioners describe essentially the same thing. It can be argued however that in the modern Christian tradition, interpretation of glossolalia is nothing more than random spontaneous generic praise or message phrases.
The results of the many studies done regarding interpretation were very non-inspiring: Yes, there are people who can supposedly interpret a glossic string; however, if one were to record said string and play it to ten different people who are said to have the ability to interpret; you essentially get ten totally different answers.
The all too common come-back to the issue of ‘multiple interpretations’ is that God/the Holy Spirit simply gives different interpretations to different people. As one writer quips (and I couldn’t have said it better myself), “Pentecostal Darwinism does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for glossolalia in the first place.”
A very strong argument for tongues as being divine in nature frequently referred to by proponents is a study done by the University of Pennsylvania on the phenomenon of glossolalia. In a nutshell, the study determined via SPECT imaging that when a person exhibits glossolalia, the language producing areas of the brain are not really engaged; i.e. ‘tongues’ do not originate in the speech center of the brain. These results have been used to support its supposed divine origins or that a person is not in control of what s/he is saying. After reading the study, I would argue the results are exactly as what one would expect; it stands to reason the brain’s language producing center is not really being engaged simply because glossolalia is not language. It’s just free vocalization –playing with sounds which do not require the language producing centers in the brain to be overly engaged. The results of the UP study are inconclusive at best in that they can be skewed to equally support either argument.
What I have also noticed is that any glossolalia that is non-Christian is automatically deemed “demonic” in origin by Christian practitioners despite the fact it’s produced the exact same way. Non-Christian practitioners of glossolalia (and schizophrenic glossolalics for that matter) are speaking and producing their glossolalia in the EXACT same way Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are – it can’t be stressed enough that there is absolutely ZERO difference between what they are doing and what Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are doing. For any Christian practitioner to think that simply because they are Christian and these other practitioners are not, that what these others are doing is somehow “Satanic”, “demonic”, or “false” in nature (even though you’re both doing the exact same thing in the exact same way), is utter nonsense and religiocentric in the absolute extreme.
Biblical “tongues” (in Greek – ‘glossa’, but also ‘dialektos’) as referenced particularly in Acts and Corinthians is to always be translated and understood as real language(s), not ecstatic utterances. The only ecstatic utterances may have been those imported into the church in Corinth by converts who came from non-Christian traditions where glossolalia was quite common.
In the description of Pentecost – tongues and “other tongues” are simply nothing more than Aramaic and Greek – the two languages spoken by the Jews of the Diaspora who were in Jerusalem for the feast. The disciples spoke both languages; however, religious teaching (as well as worship and praying) in the Jewish world had to be done in a specifically prescribed language – Hebrew. This is the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia – very simply put; the use of a specific language over all others with respect to liturgical use as well as teaching/preaching, etc. People were “amazed, astounded and bewildered” to hear the disciples speaking to them in their mother tongues of Greek and/or Aramaic rather than the expected (and, in this instance, culturally/socially correct) Hebrew – no language miracle and no ecstatic utterances were necessary. The ‘list’, in Acts by the way is not a list of languages; it’s a list of lands/countries the Jews of the Diaspora were from along with a few ethnic groups – not one place in the Pentecostal narrative is ANY language mentioned by name.
Corinthians also describes real languages – in this passage, Paul frequently uses the literary device of hyperbole which by many has been misinterpreted and taken literally; something it was never intended to do.
Some practitioners will argue that there are “thousands of languages spoken in the world today, how can anyone know that ‘tongues’ are not one of them?” Yes, there are indeed thousands of languages spoken in the world today – unfortunately not one of them is remotely close to what people are producing in their glossolalia/tongues. Real language is unmistakable, as is glossolalia.
For some Christians, glossolalia is a way for that person to become closer to God (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). They are taught from a young age to believe that the tool (i.e. ‘tongues’) is the actual medium by which one speaks to God or God speaks/reveals to man. From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities. Tongues/Glossolalia is to these Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful phenomenon, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.
I’m not “fishing for reactions or a debate, but would be glad to provide specifics on anything above – for the record I am neither an atheist nor a so-called ‘cessationist’ (I had never even heard the term prior to 2016).
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August 21, 2016 at 4:09 am
Wowww! Glorryyyy! It took me several HOURS to read this article including the comments from; @Jason Dulle @Arthur @Deb @Michael @Martyn .You guys are blessed in Jesus name. Now , l should be conscious when am speaking in an unknown tongues if its genuine or not.
Recently, l noticed l can speak in Portuguese, Spanish related to Italian. I don’t know if this is divine or just forming conjunction words. I pray the Holy Spirit open my hearing, sight and understanding for me to know if am accordance with the Holy Spirit, in JESUS name, amen!
~shalom!
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August 21, 2016 at 10:04 am
Very interesting post in response to the very lengthy post which was also very enlightening.
This is the first time I have heard someone say that they speak in known languages when speaking in tongues.
You must be one in a million as I have never yet heard anyone speak in a language that can be recognised even if I can’t speak it.
I’m sure God will show you!
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August 23, 2016 at 12:15 am
With reference to the long post by Kavik I would like to make the following comments.
An interesting post with a conclusion that a lot of speaking in tongues is at the end of the day just made up by our own minds. The constant repetition of phases we hear constructed from rearrange words from whatever language we speak would really confirm this.
Kavik makes comments that the languages spoken by the disciples was Aramaic and Greek. Probably correct but it does say in Acts 2 that they “began to speak in other languages (or tongues) as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance”
Now if they could already speak Aramaic and Greek as Kavik implied why would it be recorded that the they spoke other languages as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance or words?
And why would people think them drunk for speaking in a known language of Aramaic and Greek?
Kavik comments that they would only speak about the things of God in Hebrew which is interesting. Also all the places listed in Acts 2 are not languages but regions. Never thought of that before!
So the suggestion seems that the people could have thought they were drunk because the disciples were speaking about God in Aramaic and Greek and not Hebrew. Possible……who knows.
Peter declares that “they are not drunk” but “this is that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel”
So it was obviously more than just speaking in Aramaic and Greek as Kavik infers.
My guess that there is more than just Aramaic and Greek languages spoken otherwise it makes no sense of the Holy Spirit giving the utterance and the fulfilment of Joel’s prophesy if all they were doing was speaking Aramaic and Greek.
They could do that without the aid of the Holy Spirit and Joel’s prophesy.
It’s OK for all you folk who believe you speak in other languages even though they can never be recognised.
For us who don’t we have to try and work out what’s going on.
If it’s all free vocalisation as Kavik suggest then I can do it very well
“Oh secs dorm cansaka ecodo prof era”
Say it over and over again and add “we love you Lord” and you have it but I just typed it on my keyboard.
I’ve made up words at church and spoke them out from the front and no one recognised it was fake. Is that not worrying. (This was before I realised i was just making it up to be accepted).
So yes, Kavik makes some interesting points regards free vocalisation but there must be more to Acts 2 than just speaking in Aramaic and Greek
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August 23, 2016 at 12:40 am
Just another comment to Kaviks post.
It wasn’t only Jews from different parts of the world who were at Jerusalem in Acts 2.
It says in Acts 2 that there was Jews and converts to Judaism and they heard the disciples speaking in their native language.
So if someone was a convert o Judaism then their native language may not be Aramaic or Greek or Hebrew.
It specifically says they heard them in their native language…..the language of where they came from so that rules out that the disciples only spoke in Greek and Aramaic as there were other languages spoken at this time where these converts to Judaism came from.
That would then explain why the Holy Spirit gave the utterance and Joel’s prophesy.
Food for thought!
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August 23, 2016 at 9:16 am
Martyn:
You sound more sensible than most Christians about this matter.
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August 23, 2016 at 9:36 am
Martyn:
If you read Joel chapter two the one where the quote from Acts 2 comes, there is nothing, absolve;cutely nothing in Joel about the spreading of different languages whatsoever, so why the writer of Acts 2 inserted that Joel quote into the narrative is worthless and meaning less and has nothing to do with Acts 2 or Joel 2.
It’s like an insertion to befuddle the reader and obfuscate the event by introducing a misleading, distracting red herring. And you can believe it, they were very familiar with red herrings in biblical days to deceive people, in fact , the Pharisees were experts at deceit while making lengthy show of words to justify by prayer verbiage their acts of deceit like devouring the houses of widows, (Mark 12:40)
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August 23, 2016 at 10:19 am
Not sure that I can agree that it’s a red herring! Acts was written by Luke a very respected man in the Bible. Not sure he would bring in red herrings
It depends if you belive that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.
There must be another reason to your interpretation.
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August 23, 2016 at 10:29 am
Martyn
Just read the chapter of Joel from the beginning of chapter 2 and when you get to the scripture that was inserted in Acts, Joel 2:28-29…and tell me how it fits into the language event related in Acts? How is it consistent? In my opinion it is not and I can’t figure why Peter would stand up and out of the blue quote Joel because it has nothing to do with the event?
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August 23, 2016 at 10:32 am
Martin:
Joel, before 28-29 describes a scenario quite different in his narrative than what happened in Acts. I just don’t get the connection, if you see a connection what is it?
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August 23, 2016 at 10:35 am
To Leo
Thanks for your kind comments.
I’m just trying to be honest and real over a very difficult and what would seem a very confusing subject.
If only folk would record every day them praying in tongues on their phones and play it back they may be surprised how repetitive their “language” is.
If they listen carefully to the words they will see how close they are to rearranged words and bear no resemblance to an actual language but just a series of words made up from the alphabet
“Tamara a Shakra ecolama rabacoma”
See it’s easy. Sit at your keyboard and just start typing random letters to make up a word and you will soon be typing in tongues!!
The trouble is when you make it up it sounds just the same as when someone genuinely believe they are speaking in tongues
Very odd!!
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August 23, 2016 at 10:36 am
Most Christians take a few words of a quote from the bible and then plug it into a multitude of conversations as though it refers to everything they are saying. In some things the context may be similar or one can extrapolate into another context because of similarity but this defies consistency for me.
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September 3, 2016 at 12:31 pm
Many years ago, around the time of the Charismatic Revival or Renewal of the early 70s, I prayed to receive the gift of tongues, and God answered me. I was not in a service but on my knees in my bedroom, distressed because I had seen so many others receive the gift and I had not. At that time, I felt overjoyed that God heard me and granted me the gift I had asked for.
Since then I’ve used it only rarely and, sad to say, have had periods of backsliding, though never abandoning my faith completely. I didn’t then and don’t now belong to a charismatic church and always felt a bit self-conscious about the tongues. I mainly used it privately, especially at times when I felt overwhelmed and unable to pray consciously, then prayed in tongues trusting in the promise that the Spirit Himself will pray for us. That is still primarily the way I use it today.
Well then, fast forward a number of years, and I came across some writings by a woman who had been deeply involved in and delivered from the occult, who wrote some books about discerning the demonic. She was very emphatic that tongues speaking is a counterfeit from the devil. That made me even more uneasy about it, and so I suppressed my own ability and used it even less, though at times of great intensity in prayer, it will still come out. But it made me uncertain and uneasy whether this was a genuine gift from God or a counterfeit.
And now, I’ve recently been coming across various videos of people praying in tongues and find myself with yet another question. The tongue I was given has consistently been the same over the years. It sounds like a real language, with pronunciation that aren’t present in my own language of English, sounding more like Arabic or Hebrew or something similar with the guttural throat sounds, and with a variety of words and syntax that sounds real. And it always sounds the same. It’s not especially repetitive, but I do notice certain words being repeated often enough that I’ve come to recognize them.
However, in nearly all these videos I’ve seen, whether of people in a service, or prayer meeting, or gathering somewhere to baptize, etc. the minute they start speaking in tongues, it all. sounds. exactly. the. same. And it sounds nothing at all like the language I received. The videos sound something like baba-laba-ba-la-ba-la-la-ba-baba-la-laba-la … or sometimes shala-baba-shondi-basha-shala … and so forth. It sounds more like babbling than a real language. So now I am really confused.
Did I or did I not receive the gift of tongues all those years ago when I prayed for it? If not, then what is it? If so, then why does it sound so different from these others I hear? And why do they all sound the same?
Would love to hear some opinions and discussion. Thanks!
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September 3, 2016 at 1:39 pm
The whole idea of the gift of tongues is an illusion.
Some people however are gifted with the ability to learn various languages and speak many languages well as much as some people are gifted to play the piano or other musical instruments or the gift or artistry in paintings and free hand sketching.
Most religious people are saturated with supernatural nonsense and they want to believe in something that does not exist but which is prevalent in many cultures like superstitions.
There are lots of Psychic Shops all around most major cities but you never see the headline, Psychic wins lottery and is barred from buying lottery tickets.
Psychic and prophets are sold appointed or otherwise appointed by others who claim the authority to give you a name such as “Prophet”. There are schools for magicians and prophets and Rabbis and priests and whatever you think you want to be is available to the one who is a wannabe someone special or with special abilities that the ego practically demands of all people to boost their egocentricity.
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September 3, 2016 at 2:09 pm
Thank you for sharing your opinion. Anyone else? I’d really like to hear some discussion on the specific questions I raised from other Christian believers.
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September 3, 2016 at 7:09 pm
txbyrd:
I would like to remind you of the actual textual account of the speaking in languages(tongues) in Acts chapter 2…which is not any babbling nor is it speaking in anything else but the languages of other nations, cultures and people:
“4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,(other languages) as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.”
————————————————————-
Rendered slightly differently in another translation but with the same inner sense reads like this:
————————————————————-
“Then, like a wildfire, the Holy Spirit spread through their ranks, and they started speaking in a number of different languages as the Spirit prompted them.
5-11 There were many Jews staying in Jerusalem just then, devout pilgrims from all over the world. When they heard the sound, they came on the run. Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites;
Visitors from Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene;
Immigrants from Rome, both Jews and proselytes;
Even Cretans and Arabs!
“They’re speaking our languages, describing God’s mighty works!”
12 Their heads were spinning; they couldn’t make head or tail of any of it. They talked back and forth, confused: “What’s going on here?”
13 Others joked, “They’re drunk on cheap wine.”
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September 3, 2016 at 8:22 pm
Leo: thank you for your further musings, but you seem rather condescending in your remarks, you assume I am unfamiliar with scripture and you have not even attempted to address my specific questions. I’d really like to hear honest discussion from others who share faith in Jesus and have grappled with similar experiences and questions.
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September 4, 2016 at 9:52 pm
I Have been speaking in tongue for a little over a year now, and I too sound different then most people. I feel my tongue sounds more Native America and I too hear repeated sounds. I have ask God to use me as a vessel to help people with pain, and he has. I was glad to hear you say that your’s was different from others, I was feeling the same way you are feeling but you have helped me realize there are different sounds of tongues.
Thank You!!!
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September 4, 2016 at 10:34 pm
Sydney& txbyrd:
For those who believe they are speaking in tongues, maybe you are but if you don’t understand what you are speaking and nobody else can understand or interpret what you are speaking to let others know, then you are not speaking in the tongues that the bible talks about…you may think you are but nobody on this thread has ever said that other people can understand what they are speaking so in the words of Paul, what’s the point?
If I claimed to speak in tongues I would want to know what language it was and research it to find the language. Then I would speak to somebody in the language I am speaking and ask them what I am saying so I myself, at least, would know.
I see a major problem here that nobody is addressing except Martyn who expresses that the babbling most people are just making it up. But it means nothing to anybody and is only for a show of pretend:
As Paul says to the Church of Corinth:
1 Corinthians 14:6-33
Think, friends: If I come to you and all I do is pray privately to God in a way only he can understand, what are you going to get out of that? If I don’t address you plainly with some insight or truth or proclamation or teaching, what help am I to you? If musical instruments—flutes, say, or harps—aren’t played so that each note is distinct and in tune, how will anyone be able to catch the melody and enjoy the music? If the trumpet call can’t be distinguished, will anyone show up for the battle?
So if you speak in a way no one can understand, what’s the point of opening your mouth? There are many languages in the world and they all mean something to someone. But if I don’t understand the language, it’s not going to do me much good. It’s no different with you. Since you’re so eager to participate in what God is doing, why don’t you concentrate on doing what helps everyone in the church?
So, when you pray in your private prayer language, don’t hoard the experience for yourself. Pray for the insight and ability to bring others into that intimacy. If I pray in tongues, my spirit prays but my mind lies fallow, and all that intelligence is wasted. So what’s the solution? The answer is simple enough. Do both. I should be spiritually free and expressive as I pray, but I should also be thoughtful and mindful as I pray. I should sing with my spirit, and sing with my mind. If you give a blessing using your private prayer language, which no one else understands, how can some outsider who has just shown up and has no idea what’s going on know when to say “Amen”? Your blessing might be beautiful, but you have very effectively cut that person out of it.
I’m grateful to God for the gift of praying in tongues that he gives us for praising him, which leads to wonderful intimacies we enjoy with him. I enter into this as much or more than any of you. But when I’m in a church assembled for worship, I’d rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish.
To be perfectly frank, I’m getting exasperated with your infantile thinking. How long before you grow up and use your head—your adult head? Only mature and well-exercised intelligence can save you from falling into gullibility. It’s written in Scripture that God said,
In strange tongues
and from the mouths of strangers
I will preach to this people,
but they’ll neither listen nor believe.
So where does it get you, all this speaking in tongues no one understands? It doesn’t help believers, and it only gives unbelievers something to gawk at. Plain truth-speaking, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart of believers and doesn’t get in the way of unbelievers. If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can?
But if some unbelieving outsiders walk in on a service where people are speaking out God’s truth, the plain words will bring them up against the truth and probe their hearts.
If prayers are offered in tongues, that’s okay, but then only if someone is present who can interpret what you’re saying.
Otherwise you are just talking into thin air.
—————————————————–
When you speak in tongues why not make a voice video and put it on Youtube requesting somebody to tell you what language you are speaking…then maybe you can progress from your intractable position.
Whether it is Hebrew or Arabic or Native American, French, German, Russian or Greek; or else, you will remain in the blind ditch uncertain what’s going on.
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September 5, 2016 at 10:29 am
Thank you for your comment, Sydney. You’ve encouraged me as well. I encourage you and everyone else to simply ignore the troll. 🙂
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September 5, 2016 at 1:18 pm
txbyrd:
You are suffering from the Christian illusion that you can speak in tongues that nobody can understand but that’s okay because it’s God and the Holy Spirit doing it.
But just because some things are not understood, the religious in general and Christians in particular have a tendency to attribute lack of understanding to a “Miracle”, the “Holy Spirit” or “God” (of the Gaps) and so that’s okay with them, as though saying what it is attributed to, like “faith”, negates all the other possibilities; well, I have “faith” too, I have faith in human reasoning and the powers of “logic” to discern. And one thing for certain is that knowledge will set you free but belief never can and never will..knowledge once attained supplants belief like darkness that vanishes with the light.
And those things I have faith in are more important than the supernatural belief that nails your flag to the mast of Absolute Certainty.
You prefer to nail your colors to the mast before we know if there’s a ship attached to it. And often you’ll defend that position to the death. Now if that doesn’t qualify as serious mental illness, I would love to be briefed on what exactly does qualify and why.
So throwing out ad hominems like “troll” directed against a person trying to help you understand, rather than the position the person is maintaining, means you lost the argument already because you don’t know what you are talking about and you don’t have an argument; you just have an opinion like everybody else, looking for support from someone as equally challenged as yourself. Well, good luck with that.
“Condescending” to a dogmatic Christian means they can’t accept another viewpoint so they blame it on the one who is chastising but the bible itself says “all correction is grievous to be borne and the one who loves discipline loves knowledge, while the one who hates reproof is stupid, brutish and a fool.
Because all faith is, is an opinion, but your opinion of the Spirit is as useless as teats on a bull if you can’t defend it and therefore is less important than my opinion because I have faith in human reason and logic which most educated Christians understand but to fundamentalist, uneducated Christians understanding is slim to none.
That’s why it’s absolutely imperative that you understand the nature of faith. And very few Christians understand the nature of faith.
To be cont’d …………..but only if you love knowledge…………….I you do not, this is the end of the discussion.
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September 5, 2016 at 2:40 pm
I feel sorry for people like you with closed minds, my conversation was not to you. I know what I know and those of us that really speak in tongues know the truth, we do not have to prove anything to people like you and it really doesn’t matter what you say. We Christian have ours believes and you have yours and when we all die we will all face our maker God the ALMIGHT
AMEN
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September 5, 2016 at 11:57 pm
Hi They’re
Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond to your post which was very honest and reflected your open heart for the truth.
I have posted a number of times regarding this subject mainly at the confusion I find that in my experience the folk I hear speaking in tongues is very repetitive and never sounds like a real language.
We had a leader who became pastor in our church who only ever said ” Key aliba skindi aliba yandie” He would encourage the congregation to speak out in tongues and this is all he ever said over and over again week in week out year after year. I used to be an elder with him and he would even say the same thing when we had prayer time.
So I am very aware of you confusion in thinking that you may be speaking in a false tongue.
From what you say I feel that you may be one of those who have the genuine gift.
In 1 Corinthians 14 it says “He that speaking in a tongue (or other language) doesn’t speak to men but to God. In his spirit he speaks mysteries.” It would appear you do not use the gift in public and only fit prayer. Paul thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than all so he valued the gift.
Why not record yourself speaking in tongues on your phone or computer and play it back and see if the pattern changes over a few week.
It also says in Corinthians that we are to pray for the interpretation. Ask the Lord what it is you are praying about and make a record and build up a picture of what he may be saying.
I am no expert on this as I used to speak in tongues but came to realise I was making it up as it’s quite easy to. ” Shala well cam stoma eta Danica” but as you commented that often what we hear today is a jumble of rearranged words and letters. I spoke out in tongues at my church and no one discerned that I was making it up.
Dont let any one put you off who comments about your post. The gift is for today. There is a lot if confusion about it but if you are praying with your spirit in another language you don’t understand be assured the Lord does.
The confusion is constant repetition of words that are not a proper language.
Our pastor said he started off with “Hiroshima” Very odd it’s the name of a Japanese city.
All he does is constantly repeat phrases that are made up from our alphabet. He is a very genuine man but I feel in the past was desperate to be accepted by others to be able to speak in tongues and like me I belive we can just string together words and it sound good if we add ” We love you Lord”
The fact that people cannot desern when it’s being made up is very worrying.
Keep going on your journey.
Every blessing
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September 6, 2016 at 6:55 am
Hi txbyrd
The post above was in response to your first post but my spell checker took out your name!
Just to add that I have sought the Lord over the gift of speaking in tongues but to date I have not experienced the genuine gift as you seem to have.
I live in the UK and I have never heard of anyone speaking an European language like French or German. It’s always been this odd sounding random letters put together.
You may have heard of J John. He us a very eell know evangelist in the UK and he used to provoke people by saying a lot of tongues sounded like” She came on a Honda” and “thank you Lord Honda she came on” and yes you have it. If you say it fast with a slight accent it does sound like the speaking in tongues we hear today.
I just wished people would be honest and listen to themselves speaking in tongues.
The pastor I mentioned who says Key aliba skindi aliba yandie is saying some very odd stuff. A skindi is a skater and a yandie is a female yetti a according to a Google search! So why would the Holy Spirit constantly give someone one words like this.
This is my confusion as they are lovely Christian people who are serving the Lord.
My heart is open to receive all He wants me to have but I’m not falling into the trap of making it up just to be accepted.
Don’t give up!!!
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September 6, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Thank you so much, Martyn, for your understanding, kind words and helpful encouragement! That’s what I was hoping for, and it really means a lot.
Oddly enough, it never even occurred to me to record myself praying in tongues. I even try not to listen that much. It always seemed kind of, well, unseemly to try to dissect it, as it were, instead of just let it do its thing. But I can see the value of that. I will take your suggestion and see where I get.
I will also take your suggestion about asking God for the interpretation, or to give me knowledge of what it is I’m praying about. I’ve never done that either. It is odd, though, there have been times I’ve been praying in English, out loud, and suddenly found myself praying for something I hadn’t thought of, just the words coming from my mouth but not from my mind, if that makes any sense. It was like God gave me the prayer to pray. And then very often, when that has happened, I’ve found myself praying on in tongues without realizing that I’d switched over. I wondered if that was a continuation of the prayer I’d begun at what seemed the impulse of the Holy Spirit. I’ll pray about that too.
You’ve given me some concrete things to do, and I thank you!
No, I’m not going to be swayed by those who 1) don’t believe, and 2) try to dissuade me from believing in the gifts of the Spirit. I know Whom I have believed and I can’t be turned aside from that. And I’m no cessationist. I do believe all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation today. That said, however, I think that some of them have been/are being perverted or twisted.
Tongues is one I think that’s often misused, used wrongly, imitated without being genuine, and yes, I believe is one that satan can also counterfeit. As Pharaoh’s magicians were able to do all that Moses did (up to the last plague, which they couldn’t reproduce), so I think he can deceive people by counterfeiting the gifts of God. I’m fairly sure that the repetitive and duplicative babbling I’ve heard as a demonstration of “tongues” is either mere emotional glossolalia, or possibly a demonic counterfeit, or maybe one or the other depending on circumstances. I’m not prepared right now to say which or whom. But I’m pretty sure it’s not the true gift.
I’m just concerned, as you perceived, as to whether I truly received the gift from God, or whether I was so desperately seeking after the gift (rather than the Giver) that I may have inadvertently left the door open for the enemy to counterfeit. You give me hope that that is not the case.
Thank you again, and don’t worry. I’ve been online a long time and learned not to feed trolls. 🙂
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September 6, 2016 at 8:29 pm
Martyn, I also wanted to comment about what you said regarding your own experience. Are you entirely sure you were making it up? Maybe you in turn could ask God about that. And if you really believe you were making it up, and earnestly desire the gift. I in turn would like to encourage you to keep asking. After all, it is one of the signs Paul speaks about, and seems to have been more the norm than otherwise among the early Christians. However, I don’t see where it’s said it was universal.
I’m acquainted with Christians whom I know love the Lord and are devoted servants, who have not received the gift of tongues. I don’t think it lessens their witness in any way, or detracts from their walk. Some of them have said they’d like to have it; some others don’t seem to have any desire to pursue it. In your case, I wonder if the desire may be from God. Remember He says He will give us the desires of our heart. I’ve always taken that to mean the actual desires, and not just wish fulfillment. So it might be that the very desire to seek the gift of tongues is from Him. If so, then I’d say just keep asking, and leave it in His hands and His time. But don’t give up. 🙂
Blessings, Brother.
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September 6, 2016 at 9:13 pm
txbyrd
“…………….who have not received the gift of tongues…………
Who are you trying to kid? Not Martyn for sure.
The gift of tongues is the gift of languages and that dispels the babbling of Ali Shabbi, Baba Shabbi Ari Monishi BABIBI.
You see, Martyn is not taken by the pretence and manipulation of churchiness, and the fact is, speaking in tongues is speaking languages other than your mother tongue and that others can understand in their language,
If I am French and you speak in my language and I understand that is wonderful; that is, speaking in tongues………. and I can interpret for your congregation what you are saying. If not then everybody is like babbling idiots and nobody can understand anything but nonsensical utterances.
.
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September 7, 2016 at 12:16 am
Hi
First to Leo
While I agree speaking in tongues is in a known language and not angelic Paul does say that when he speaking in a tongue his spirit prays but his understanding is unfruitful. He also says that the person is edified if he speaks in another tongue.
He also says that the person is not speaking to men but to God and speaks mysteries with his spirit. All in 1 Corinthians 14.
So I believe it’s something more than just being able to speak another language. There seems to be something about it beyond human ability just to learn another language. Paul desires that they all spoke in tongues but he does qualify it by saying prophesy is better so all can understand but it doesn’t mean tongues are no good!
Paul also tells us to desire earnestly spiritual manifestations and gives the list and speaking in tongues is included. He also says not to forbid speaking in tongues.
A language is a language.
Putting random letters together to form a word is not. With a bit if practice it’s easy to do. I have gone through the whole alphabet and made up words for each letter. They do sound quite convincing!
I’m sure there are many genuine believers who have been desperate to speak in tongues. They are told to “Just speak it our brother” and the mind is able to make up a random word and when spoken out they are encouraged to belive they have received even if it only one word!
Call me skeptical but I’m sure the Holy Spirit is able to give more than just one word if he is giving the utterance!
Then they are told to keep speaking out the one word and more will follow and are told it’s like learning a language. But it’s nothing to with learning a language! The Holy Spirit gives the words so there is nothing to learn but if you unconsiously making it up then yes you will have to learn to make more up.
This is the confusion I belive may be happening.
The Holy Spirit is the giver. We cannot have what He hasn’t given but we can easily think we have which is why a lot if speaking in tongues is constant repetition of created words and never sounds a language because it’s not.
To tybyrd
Thanks for your kind comments. We are told to encourage one another. We are all on a journey and need each other in the body of Christ. It’s easier to knock someone down than to build up.
Regarding your concern that I may have been genuinely speaking in tongues I feel it was more the Lord opened my eyes to see wasn’t. You see if I think I have something but it’s not the real thing then I’m not going to look for the real thing because i think I already have it.
I belive the Lord opened my eyes as I know he wants me to have a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not something I thought was the Holy Spirit and it’s not.
We are told to desire earnestly spiritual manifestations.
But we are told to seek the giver not the gifts.
But if we are told to desire earnestly then there has to an active desire for them and in the process we are still seeking Him as we are being obedient to Him in seeking what he tells us to seek!
So I will keep desire for the genuine gifts!!
Keep going on your journey!
He knows your heart as you listen to Him.
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September 7, 2016 at 7:36 pm
It was really hurting after hearing my pastor said that the leaders should not assign anyone to lead praise and worship who is not speaking in tongues. He said, they are just praising with their emotions. they are crying and because of that, others too are crying. It really hurt me sooooo much because whenever i am worship leading, i cant stop my tears from falling. It is just that i am crying out to God or thanking him or i’m just overwhelmed but i started to realize what if they are now thinking that i am fake because i’m not able to speak in new tongue. but i know in my heart and God knows it too that there is no hypocrisy in heart whenever i am leading his people. Actually i’ve been longing to experience that gift. I have been searching about speaking in tongues until i got here. I desire to speak but not like what i had observed they are doing. seems like they all have the same language. same sound. seems like they are trying to control the spirit and they are bragging about it? The word of God came upon me. While we are worshipping, i suddenly found myself speaking the word of God in a very loud voice. I was rebuking the spirit of hypocrisy and asking God to help us worship in spirit and in truth. i dont know why i did that and i also spoke the verse echoing in my mind. in God’s word, he said that you may speak in tounges, interpret, prohesy and etc but without love, it is nonsense. Love is the greatest. In 1 Cor 12, not all will have that gift. or if God will let me speak in new tongues, I’m praying for the real speaking in tongues like the experience of the gentiles in Acts. That there will be people around who will say, that was my language or that was a real language or i understand that language and then interpret it. I’m longing for worship in spirit and in truth in our church. If you would ask me, I can also speak what they speak. “O lababayashandalababayasiya…”. It’s like they already memorized it. but i will not be a fool to copy their worship just for others to think i am speaking in tongue. that is why i am rebuking it. I believe that the enemy is just trying to put me down or deceive me especially that he knows that i’m being used by God to bring his people in worshipping Him. That what i’ve been thinking the whole time. If there’s something wrong with my thought, I will be glad to know. Godbless.
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September 7, 2016 at 8:03 pm
There is something wrong with your thought and it is called the enemy…There are no enemies; you have no enemy, whatever you do, you do unto your own self and stop trying to claim that an enemy is trying to sabotage your good intentions, that is just a bunch of hogwash…..
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September 7, 2016 at 10:45 pm
To Ryl
That is a great post expressing the true desires of your heart.
You are on a journey for the truth and I’m sure God will honour your hearts desire for the true gift of speaking in other languages.
Remember you are not speaking to men but to God. (1 Corinthians 14)
Like you I feel there is a lot if genuine people who have got into this creating words that are not a language.
Keep pressing in….you have a right heart attitude and it will be attacked like Leo seems to like doing to people who post the honest desire of their hearts.
We are told to build each other up in love so be encouraged in your worship as you seem to worship in sport and truth.
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September 8, 2016 at 8:18 am
Martin:
Lots of people have a sincere desire of the heart to partake in falsehoods that have been perpetrated on the masses since the ancients days…………sometimes people need to have shock therapy to get the picture.
Just because Religion preaches its dogma doesn’t mean it is right..look at the story of Galileo who was tried for heresy when he agree that the earth orbited the sun and not vice versa. Galileo had to recant to save his life; nevertheless, the church forced him into house arrest where he remained for the rest of his life and banned his books for two hundred years until the church finally admitted its dogma was wrong.
You can pray with the fervour of belief and build monuments to your stonehenge ideas but belief can never set you free, only knowledge can do that.
Church dogma thought nothing of devouring widow’s properties but Jesus mocked them and told them it was a disgusting thing along with other indictments you can easily find in Matthew 23; the entire chapter is devoted to the ridiculous dogma of false teachings by the clerics of Jesus day.
I suppose you would call Jesus out for liking to shed light on those false teachings but you’d be wrong about that too.
Jesus spent his life exposing religious falsehoods until they caught him and crucified him for stepping on their self righteous religious toes.
It’s not easy to admit you’re wrong after a wasted life practicing useless rituals to express your faith in God.
That’s why it’s absolutely imperative that you understand the nature of faith. And very few Christians understand the nature of faith. Because we’re constantly being brainwashed into the idea that the more you are in the rat race, the more you rush around doing things for God the more you’re demonstrating your faith in God; diametrically opposed to the truth. The more you try to do for God the more you’re demonstrating, not your faith in God, but your faith in yourself.
Faith is a disposition that invokes the activity of a second party; it brings somebody, something, into action on your behalf. You’re exercising faith at this moment in the seat that supports your weight.
What’s your faith doing for that seat? Nothing! Except let it be a bench, on your behalf. It isn’t your faith that supporting your weight, it’s the chair. And you can’t exercise your faith in a chair standing up, you can only exercise your faith is a chair sitting down on it.
That’s why, never congratulate a man on his faith, that’s sheer stupidity. Faith never made a man great. Faith is simply that disposition that allows Good(God) to be as big as Good(God) is, in a man, that’s all. Congratulate Him. The one who’s BE-ing.
Faith is like the clutch on a gear shift continental sports car. You could put your foot on the gas, rev the engine until every last window in the district is vibrating with the noise and the whole city lost in a cloud of dust. But if you don’t let the clutch out where will you be when you take your foot off the gas and the dust has settled? Exactly where you started! Because all the clutch does is relate the engine and the power under the hood to the wheels on the road. But the clutch doesn’t drive the car. Can you imagine a kid with his friend, open sports car, zooming down the road, nobody looking, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 miles an hour, wind streaming through his hair and he turns to his friend and says man….man..he says, what a clutch! Well you’d say don’t be so stupid. You’d say Man…what an engine!. All the clutch is doing is letting the engine be an engine.
And all that faith does in terms of your relationship to Jesus Christ is to allow him to move redemptively into your experience and reconcile you to Good. If you don’t put your trust in Christ, he’s still the redeemer but you won’t know it.
That doesn’t prove you’re smart. That just exposes your ignorance.
Imparting knowledge is what leo likes doing, believe it or not,
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September 8, 2016 at 9:41 am
To Ryl: I’m so sorry you had that hurtful experience in your church. Your pastor was mistaken in making tongues speaking a requirement for worship leaders. Hopefully he’ll learn that one day. I was happy for your post because you confirmed what I also noticed about a lot of these “tongues” which is that they don’t seem to be real tongues, and that they all sound very much alike, just babbling of a few syllables over and over. You did a great job describing it! Since we have been told to earnestly desire the gifts of the Spirit, however, and tongues is one of those gifts, I just encourage you to keep seeking. See Martyn’s reply to me above. However, it’s important, I think, to be sure we are seeking the Giver more than just the gifts, in order to avoid opening ourselves to the deception of the enemy.
And yes, of course we have an enemy. There’s nothing wrong with your thinking. The scriptures make that abundantly clear. The enemy’s purpose is to steal, kill and destroy us all, so it’s very possible and likely he is attacking you in various ways. But he is a defeated enemy, and we don’t need to fear him as long as we take every precaution given us to be clothed in God’s armor, to use the spiritual weapons He’s given us and to stay close to Him in prayer and by reading of the scriptures.
Unfortunately there is a troll on this forum, who is trying to provoke you and others posting here. The definition of a troll is “a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people … with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.” The best advice is “Do not feed a troll,” which means do not pay any attention to them, don’t respond to them, don’t get pulled into an argument with them, don’t defend yourself to them, just completely ignore them. If you don’t give them an opening, in time they’ll get bored and take their harrassment somewhere else. But if you respond, they’ll only keep it up.
Again, I just encourage you to keep seeking the Lord and ask him for his gifts, but also for the strength and patience to wait on his timing. You’re all right. Remember James 4:8, “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”
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September 8, 2016 at 10:09 am
To Leo
Read your post and I honestly haven’t a clue what you’re on about!
What is the relevance of what you are saying? You are obviously a very well educated person but you have lost me completely.
Whats it all got to do with me? Your on about Galileo and the early church etc.
You obviously love airing your knowledge but you lack any ability to encourage, or to exhort anyone.
You seem to indicate that your knowledge and interpretation is far superior to anyone else. You have no regard for a person’s feelings or how they see things and feel the need to correct anyone who see,s things different to you.
It would appear that you have some issues in your life that have not been resolved which is causing you to have a superior attitude over those who disagree with you.
This thread is about discerning fake tongues not some deep theological debate that we haven’t a clue what your on about.
I am a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ seeking to walk with Him and be obedient to His Word.
I’m not sure what ground you take even if you are a Christian or not.
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September 8, 2016 at 11:15 am
Martyn:
I thought I was very clear: speaking in tongues that accept babbling nonsense is a “church dogma” and is irrelevant to the truth of what scripture actually says, irrelevant to what scripture really means. So you have people saying “aliba skindi alibi yandie” and clerics of church dogma accepts this perfectly. That is a false teaching and clerics should be held accountable to speak truth to the congregation that speaking in tongues is about speaking in other languages and not about the Tower of Babel.
My description points that out and I simply draw attention to the scripture that tells people. Just because I am not sympathetic to people who follow church dogma does not speak to my exhorting and encouraging people to seek the truth when I point out scripture that plainly tells us that the disciples spoke in languages that others could plainly understand as their own tongue. When I post the scriptures revealing this I am accused of being condescending.
You on the other hand, even though exhorting posters (I just encourage you to keep seeking the Lord and ask him for his gifts, but also for the strength and patience to wait on his timing.) suggest that they continue to strive for the gift of tongues when what I believe a better suggestion is, that they get software like the Rosetta Stone Language Learning. That would make more sense instead of suggesting that suddenly they will be speaking a new language if they seek and seek with a pure desire for the gifts of the lord. I don’t know how you are helping them other than waiting for a miraculous intervention which is not going to happen, unless you fake it which we know pastors fake a lot of things to make the believers confused about reality.
As an example of the way religion uses falsehood dogma I gave the illustration from history how dogma is used by the church and church leaders to persecute and prosecute, Galileo for example, for heresy. And the same persecution has happened from the pastor who slighted Ryl by saying that one should not lead the congregation in prayer unless you can speak in tongues even if you sound like a babbling brook.
I do know that people of belief feel hurt when knowledge is presented to them but that’s what Jesus did from the start of his campaign as the religious wingnuts of his day called him a blasphemer with a demon; a glutton, a drunk, a sinner and sought for three years to imprison him, throw him over cliffs, stone him, whip him, beat him, mock him, arrest him and crucify him, which is no different than religion does today to atheists and gays and even to their own congregants in their own church as Ryl stated.
Church leaders are an insult to humanity and that’s exactly how Jesus described them in his day.
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September 8, 2016 at 1:06 pm
We can all agree their are people speaking tongues that are fake, but those of us that really do are not speaking to people we are speaking to God. In Corinthians 14:2 says follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts is the Sprit, especially Prophecy for anyone who speaks in tongue does Not Speak to people but to God indeed no one else understands them; they utter mysteries by the spirt.
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September 8, 2016 at 1:46 pm
Very well put! I was just about to post something similar myself.
Paul also said “I would that you all spoke in tongues”
He also says ” If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then, I will pray with my spirit and I will pray with my understanding. I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding.
Quite clear to me that speaking in tongues or other languages is the ability by the Holy Spirit to speak in a language never learnt or understood by the speaker yet his spirit is able to pray or sing to God even though he doesn’t understand what he says.
Paul says ” He that speaks in other languages edified himself” but the context is that he is speaking mysteries to God.
It may seem odd to the human mind to be saying something you don’t understand but Paul says his spirit is praying. Who is giving the word or utterance? The Holy Spirit. So you praying by your spirit words given by the Holy Spirit.
No wonder Paul says he is edified and thanks his God he speaks in tongues more than all!!
Paul also say “Do not forbid the speaking in tongues”
How can you forbid something that doesn’t exist?
And why would we be exported to desire earnestly spiritual manifestations which includes speaking in other tongues if this gift doesn’t exist or is not available for us?
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September 8, 2016 at 2:02 pm
To Sydney, Martyn and Ryl, I’ve been doing a bit of digging around the web on the topic (which is how I found this forum) and came across this article, which I found very interesting. The writer differentiates between “glossolalia, which refers to speech in “an unknown tongue,” while the second is known as xenoglossy (or xenoglossia), speaking in real human languages that are previously unknown to the speaker,” and then goes on to enumerate a number of questions. He doesn’t provide any real answers, mainly it’s just food for thought, but I liked his more scholarly approach. Here’s a link in case you’d like to read it: http://yuriystasyuk.com/ten-hard-questions-about-speaking-in-tongues-glossolalia-and-xenoglossy/
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September 8, 2016 at 2:47 pm
According to First century Jewish Priest & Historian Josephus, Greek wasn’t spoken in first century Israel. Josephus also points out the extreme rarity in terms of a Jew knowing Greek in first century AD.
Josephus wrote:
“I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.” —Antiquities of Jews XX, XI.
If Paul spoke only Biblical Hebrew, he would have needed a translator to speak to the Aramaic-speaking Jews of Palestine, and a Greek interpreter for all his journeys to Asia Minor. Acts 21:37–22:2 shows a contrast between Paul speaking in Greek to the Roman captain, and addressing the Jews in “Hebrew” (Aramaic). When the crowd stopped listening to Paul and seemed to be on the verge of rioting, the captain had Paul taken into custody and ordered him to be beaten so that he would tell them why the crowd had become so agitated. In other words, the captain didn’t understand Paul’s speech in Aramaic or the crowd’s response (Acts 22:2-24). Paul and the captain then have a second conversation, which would have been in Greek, without an interpreter (verses 25-29).
Acts 16:1 (NIV) – “Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek.”
Galatians 2:3 (KJV) – “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 2:3 (Book “The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English”, Page. 269) – “Even Titus, an Aramaean who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised.”
Are Aramaic and Greek the same language and interchangeable as these verse suggest?
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September 8, 2016 at 5:23 pm
Txbryd & Martyn & a anyone else
I have tried to speak in tongue with my mind with out saying a word, to try and repeat the same words that come out of my mouth when speaking in tongue and I Can’t. Can either of you? Maybe neither one of you have ever thought about doing that, if you try it and what to share I would love to know
Have a blessed day
Sydney
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September 8, 2016 at 5:50 pm
Please discard my comment and question, I am sorry for even asking you guys. That was a personal question and is none of my business, but it is something to try among your selfs
Have Blssed Day
Sydney
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September 9, 2016 at 7:47 am
To Sydney: I wasn’t offended by your question, but rather intrigued. So I did try it several times. I was able to mentally speak in my tongue, but I must say it was an effort haha! My lips kept wanting to move and it took quite an effort to keep them still while letting the words form in my mind.
I found this exercise especially interesting because one area of interest of mine is frequencies. Everything that exists resonates with a certain unique frequency. Wtihout getting too much into the scientific end of it, I have always thought that there is power, for example, in speaking God’s words out loud when reading from scripture, and also using scripture as prayer. I think there’s value in praying out loud for the same reason, that there is a kind of power in the very sound of the words,, i.e. the frequencies. So too.I think part of the power of speaking in tongues comes from the frequency of the words and sounds, a power that would be lessened if not spoken aloud. Just musing now: I wonder if that’s partly why I get such an uneasy feeling when hearing people doing this kind of labalabashatabala kind of babbling. It just doesn’t *sound* right, if that makes any sense …
Anyway, to answer your question, yes I guess I can, but with great difficulty!
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September 9, 2016 at 11:30 pm
Txbyrd
I was talking to my best friend who has been a Christian for over 40 years, was a teacher in a Christian school knows the bible forward and backward and reads and prays daily. She told me she believed I could speak in tongue, but I told her I did not think so, weeks went by and I called her all excited because I could speak and sing in tongue, the first thing she wanted was to hear me and second she made me say a verse out of the bible after I spoke in tongue to her 1 John 4:2 (Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God) but read it first from 1 John 4 1:6 if you can say what I have put on verse 2 then your tongue is from the Spirit. Which I know it is. But she says people that can’t say these words is not from God. Just some spiritual food for thought. And Thank You for sharing your experience with me.
God Bless You Brother in Christ!!!!
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September 10, 2016 at 5:11 am
Ok, tried reading most of this thread but still stumbling with a question. I firmly believe I speak in tongues.. but.. I am not experiencing anything close to Holy Ghost power?
What is wrong with me? Would not the Holy Spirit uses someone “baptized” in Him to perform signs and wonders? Otherwise, what is the point?
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September 10, 2016 at 12:12 pm
I think you are asking to much from speaking in tongue, when you speak in tongue your Holy Spirit is speaking to God. Read verse Corinthians 14:2 and maybe you will understand. Just because you speak in tongues does not mean you are going to be able to do special things. That is not what it is all about. Just be happy that you can speak in tongue and let your Holy Spirit lead you.
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September 10, 2016 at 12:15 pm
Nickodemus
Also read 1 John 4:1-6
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September 10, 2016 at 2:23 pm
To Sydney: You’re welcome. I found it an interesting exercise, though probably not something I’ll be doing on a regular basis.
In having this discussion I’m trusting more that what I received all those years ago truly is from God, though I still feel reticent about using it in public. However, I’m still wondering a bit about why so many of the people I hear supposedly speaking in tongues all sound the same, and that same being pretty much just repetition of a few syllables that sound nothing like an actual language. I don’t know if you read the article I posted a link to above, but I’m beginning to think that what I’ve heard is what that writer describes. not necessarily something of the enemy, but not the true gift of tongues either. Rather it seems to be a sort of emotional experience that’s meaningful to the speakers, but not true tongues given by God for either prayer or edification of the body. I realize I could be wrong, but right now, that’s how it seems to me.
I love that passage from 1 John. And yes, I truly believe and declare that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and He is God!
God bless you too, my brother in Christ, from your sister in Christ. 🙂
To Nicodemus: I agree with what Sydney has said, that just because we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and speaking in tongues, doesn’t necessarily mean all the other gifts follow or are immediately available. On the other hand, I do know what you mean in wondering why we see so little of those other gifts today. Jesus did say we would do the same things he did, and we sure don’t see much of it, not in the Western world anyway. There are more reports of miraculous doings coming out of Africa and the East, though. Been asking God for enlightenment on as to why.
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September 10, 2016 at 2:32 pm
Miracle cure in modernity:
A single dose of combination therapy has been used to cure single lesion paucibacillary leprosy: rifampicin (600 mg), ofloxacin (400 mg), and minocycline (100 mg)
Feeding the thousands:
Fast food chains do more than that feed thousands, Institutions like hospitals, military, prisons.
Natural..not supernatural that’s why the mindset can’t comprehend natural progressive civilization. they are stuck in ancient spinning your tires in the snow mode.
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September 10, 2016 at 7:47 pm
Hi Txbyrd,
Just wanted to let you know I am a girl too, and I thought you were a boy too
Well now that we know the truth about ourselves have a blessed evening
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September 10, 2016 at 8:13 pm
Hi Sister Sydney, so we’ve got that out of the way then lol! May you also have a blessed evening! 🙂
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September 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm
Txbyrd I was on this pg last year read number 174 but I to had a troll and quite responding to his remarks, and just stayed away for a while you came on.
Thanks for bring me back
Sydney
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September 14, 2016 at 10:20 am
Amen
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September 14, 2016 at 10:56 am
To Leo
What are you on about?
I reckon you are not speaking in tongues but writing in tongues because I need an interpretation to understand what you are writing!
Perhaps I’m one of the simple ones!
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September 14, 2016 at 12:08 pm
I thought you might know more of the bible than just speaking in tongues.
Actually I was directing my Post 254 you can’t understand, at the last paragraph of the texas byrd Post 253……if you read the posts in order you would have seen that but alas maybe that was too simple for you to discern the connection.
Here is the paragraph she wrote and now if you re-read my post you’ll see the obvious connection.
You might want to ask daniel mcneil what the interpretation of his post 258 means. Now that needs some guesswork….methinks.
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September 14, 2016 at 12:18 pm
txbyrd paragraph:
“………..On the other hand, I do know what you mean in wondering why we see so little of those other gifts today. Jesus did say we would do the same things he did, and we sure don’t see much of it, not in the Western world anyway. There are more reports of miraculous doings coming out of Africa and the East, though. Been asking God for enlightenment on as to why……….”
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September 28, 2016 at 1:07 am
Interetersing. After recently being Saved Reborn again Giving.my Lofe to.Christ Accepting Him as My Persoanl Savoir Ihad spkoken inTounges But had shyed away from.doing so becoause as i undetstood it That that was menat for The Time of Pentecost..Each person from their Native homeland could undetstand sonin facr tjey were real landgaues in the sense ie From Spain Greece Isreal could be.understood in their Native Tounge. So point being how nd why is in many churchs uaed today. Some as far use as ameans of like the golden seal of ur Christianiy da crem dela.crems.so yo speak. However found ur article interesting nd helpful.as in the seperating of fake nd authenic spking of in tounges but still mo closer or convinced that The spking of Tounhes is still needed today. For we now have the eternal attoment of Christ.Our redeemer nd one time.sacrifical of the remission of sins rigjt. So i dont get why we need the speaking of tounges. What doea it profit us in todays age when we have Christ nd Holy sprirt.
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September 28, 2016 at 11:29 pm
Speaking in tongues was never needed except at the time the disciples needed to impress their conviction upon people and so they took language lessons.
Nevertheless you need the use of a spell checker for your commentary…..
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September 28, 2016 at 11:49 pm
Leo
Your talking rubbish again!
No where does it say in the Bible the disciple’s went to language lessons.
They spoke in other languages as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance ( Acts 2)
In 1 Corinthians 14 it says that ” He that speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God for with his spirit he speaks mysteries”
Also it says ” He that speaks in tongues edified himself.”
Paul thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than all but in the church he would rather speak 5 words with understanding than 100000 in a tongue so that all could be edified.
Obviously if Paul spoke in tongues more than all but would rather speak 5 words so all could understand then he must have used the gift a lot in his private communion with God.
Paul also says that when speaking in tongues his spirit prays but his understanding is unfruitful.
So you are suggesting the disciple’s just went to language lessons.
It’s odd then that the Bible clearly indicates something totally different.
If a linguist speaks a language their Spirit is not praying. They also understand what they are saying.
Paul clearly says that if a man prays to God in another tongue he is not speaking to men but to God and is speaking mysteries with his spirit. Clearly not someone who has been to language lessons.
If you have a Bible Leo you can check it out for yourself.
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September 29, 2016 at 11:58 am
Martyn:
For you talking rubbish is anything not in them bible. Common sense is not in the bible but common sense is not rubbish is it? or to you maybe it is without an ounce of imagination to understand metaphors and meaning of idiom and cultural saying and expressions.
How would you know if did not take language lessons? You don’t and not just because the bible does not say so.
Remember what John said about Jesus and what he did?
“This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.”
You should ask yourself why you quote Paul more than Jesus? Why you quote other preachers and ministers without mentioning Jesus’ words and life. We do not need or want what Paul thinks or other preachers think; it’s the life and messages of Jesus himself.
It is the most unredeeming factor in your life and in the countless lives of others who hear preachings extolling the words of Paul whose understanding was slim to none, other than blind obedience to clergy authority, the same blind obedience Paul was brought up as a Pharisee to preach to other weakened minds, without the Father through whom one is to know the Son and therefore without the Son through whom we know that Father within and thereby remain ignorant without knowledge of the Son but tons of belief and faith in the non-knowledge of every Tom, Dick and Harry charlatans for pence and power, accolades, high seats, to be known of men. You have your reward.
The problem stems from your lack of knowledge about Jesus but plenty of faith and knowledge of what other preachers interpret the same old tired expressions of: “Christ Jesus/Messiah Yahshua my Lord”, well-stated in Proverbs 26:11 and reinforced by Jesus himself when he said: ” ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’”… And that is all you teach, the precepts of men like Paul et al.
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September 29, 2016 at 12:07 pm
Sure Martyn:
But use your common sense if a Man speaks to others in English but can also speak French because it is his mother tongue and he speaks to an english congregation but prays aloud to the congregation in his mother tongue which no other can understand then of course he is speaking to God as he prays because it is more natural and convenient to ad lib in his mother tongue
How many languages did Paul speak…at least three….
If Paul spoke only Biblical Hebrew, he would have needed a translator to speak to the Aramaic-speaking Jews of Palestine, and a Greek interpreter for all his journeys to Asia Minor. Acts 21:37–22:2 shows a contrast between Paul speaking in Greek to the Roman captain, and addressing the Jews in “Hebrew” (Aramaic). When the crowd stopped listening to Paul and seemed to be on the verge of rioting, the captain had Paul taken into custody and ordered him to be beaten so that he would tell them why the crowd had become so agitated. In other words, the captain didn’t understand Paul’s speech in Aramaic or the crowd’s response (Acts 22:2-24). Paul and the captain then have a second conversation, which would have been in Greek, without an interpreter (verses 25-29).
Paul told the Corinthians, “I thank my God, I speak with tongues (glossa) more than you all.”(1 Cor. 14:18). “Glossa” is Strong’s 1100, “glossa, the tongue; by impl. a language…”.
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September 30, 2016 at 10:57 am
Martyn et al:
Seriously.
Everybody is born with the Father living within; AKA, the holy spirit, the person born is the Son/Daughter: the physical, visible s/he who will eventually give a physical, visible expression of an invisible self intimately identified with an invisible Father by the indwelling of the holy spirit.
All there is of Good (God) is available to the person who is available to all there is of Good (God). And here’s the description of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. it’s real easy: And you are smart enough to understand it.
Think of the Father as your personal immune system:
THE FATHER
is like the Immune System ready to defend you and there’s nothing you can do to interfere with his work; it’s automatic: The body’s immune system is a system of many biological structures and processes within an organism that protects against disease. To function properly, an immune system must detect a wide variety of agents, known as pathogens, from viruses to parasitic worms, and distinguish them from the organism’s own healthy tissue.
In many species, the immune system can be classified into subsystems, such as the innate immune system versus the adaptive immune system, or humoral immunity versus cell-mediated immunity. Pathogens can rapidly evolve and adapt, and thereby avoid detection and neutralization by the immune system; however, multiple defense mechanisms have also evolved to recognize and neutralize pathogens.
The sympathetic nervous system is one of the two main divisions of the autonomic nervous system, the other being the parasympathetic nervous system.The autonomic nervous system functions to regulate the body’s unconscious actions. The sympathetic nervous system’s primary process is to stimulate the body’s fight-or-flight response. It is, however, constantly active at a basic level to maintain homeostasis. The sympathetic nervous system is described as being complementary to the parasympathetic nervous system which stimulates the body to “rest-and-digest” or “feed and breed”.
THE HOLY SPIRIT
is like Memory so that you can grow up and learn hot and cold, up and down, day and night and by practice train up your senses in the discernment of good and evil and use your will to decide which you will accept.
THE OLD CHEROKEE LEGEND:
CHIEF:
A fight is going on inside every other person between two wolves. One is evil; he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is good; he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
GRANDSON:
Which wolf will win?
CHIEF:
The one you feed.
Which wolf within, will you feed ? for we are also just as capable of rejecting the kingdom of good (Heaven) within and accepting the Kingdom of Evil (Hell) within as we see humanity play-role both these dimensions in the human experience. All aspects of your sensory perceptions stay with you in the Memory.
Both the Father/the Holy Spirit are there with an undying, unlimited protectorate just for you, your own personal guardians from birth.
THE SON/DAUGHTER……….S/HE
You acknowledge the Father by letting the Father do it,
for the Holy Spirit, you listen and heed the memory there, for your protection and guide; learn from mistakes, get up when you stumble and continue in that fashion;
for the immune system, wash your wounds, cleanse your wounds, bandage your wounds maintain your health with wisdom from your own guide and the wisdom imparted by others who have become advocates for your physical health: dentists, doctors, medicine, hospitals, paramedics, firefighters, 911 responders.
Treat and respect others as being born with the same capacity, the same Father, the same Holy Spirit as yourself. It is worldwide and widespread but very individual and personal for each of us, at the same time.
The Spirit of Truth
15-17 “If you love me, show it by doing what I’ve told you. I will talk to the Father, and he’ll provide you another Friend so that you will always have someone with you. This Friend is the Spirit of Truth. The godless world can’t take him in because it doesn’t have eyes to see him, doesn’t know what to look for. But you know him already because he has been staying with you, and will even be in you!
18-20 “I will not leave you orphaned. I’m coming back. In just a little while the world will no longer see me, but you’re going to see me because I am alive and you’re about to come alive. At that moment you will know absolutely that I’m in my Father, and you’re in me, and I’m in you.
21 “The person who knows my commandments and keeps them, that’s who loves me. And the person who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and make myself plain to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said, “Master, why is it that you are about to make yourself plain to us but not to the world?”
23-24 “Because a loveless world,” said Jesus, “is a sightless world. If anyone loves me, he will carefully keep my word and my Father will love him—we’ll move right into the neighborhood! Not loving me means not keeping my words. The message you are hearing isn’t mine. It’s the message of the Father who sent me.
25-27 “I’m telling you these things while I’m still living with you. The Friend, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send at my request, will make everything plain to you. He will remind you of all the things I have told you. I’m leaving you well and whole. That’s my parting gift to you. Peace. I don’t leave you the way you’re used to being left—feeling abandoned, bereft. So don’t be upset. Don’t be distraught.
28 “You’ve heard me tell you, ‘I’m going away, and I’m coming back.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I’m on my way to the Father ( To the Father is to “where He leads me”) because the Father is the goal and purpose of my life.
29-31 “I’ve told you this ahead of time, before it happens, so that when it does happen, the confirmation will deepen your belief in me. I’ll not be talking with you much more like this because the chief of this godless world is about to attack. But don’t worry—he has nothing on me, no claim on me. But so the world might know how thoroughly I love the Father, I am carrying out my Father’s instructions right down to the last detail.
“Get up. Let’s go. It’s time to leave here.”
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September 30, 2016 at 2:36 pm
LeoTheGreater, if “everybody is born with the Father living within; a.k.a. the Holy Spirit”, why is it then that Jesus said in John 3: 3 “No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again”? Are you personally born again? Do you personally know Jesus?
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October 1, 2016 at 1:45 am
Eduard:
I personally know Jesus because of his message, because his message was that the Father dwells within everybody. Jesus, in my opinion, was the first person to recognize this concept, noise it throughout the world and was the reason he revolutionized religion because everybody else was wrongly running around in circles praying and lamenting and crediting and debiting the supernatural Gods that man imaginatively created in the absence of knowing the truth.
And of course as Jesus began his campaign to awaken the people and the religious establishment to that concept, the principalities in high places; aka the Sanhedrin(Jewish Council the equivalent of the Papacy in Rome in the middle ages as it too became the Theocratic Authority over the masses.) became furious that somebody would dare tackle the religious establishment by saying they were all wrong and then promote a concept that nobody on earth ever did…that the true God resided within you as he does within every person born. But nobody recognized that concept before Jesus brought that message to light and public knowledge; and, I hasten to add, even after Jesus spoke, it was still difficult to grasp because the disciples too were also hooked on the supernatural and found it difficult to grasp the concept. It was after Jesus left the country and seen no more that the disciples began to understand what he meant when he spent the last three years living with them. They were awakened to the fact of the spirit of God within was the actual message and finally they said “we get it now, we see it; we can now see it!”, “we finally get the message”. However the Pharisee surrogates were already persecuting and and rounding up the followers insomuch that the general mass was infiltrated by the surrogates who preached Moses and the Law and the ritualisms of church dogma and eventually the following of Jesus fell back into the supernaturalism concept of the ancient religion and eventually abandoned the message of Jesus. And they re-absorbed the church teaching again, Laws of Moses, the ritual imperatives that meant nothing, the sacraments that meant nothing, the offerings meant nothing as they were merely the precepts of men for which the church powers relentlessly pursued Jesus for arrest, imprisonment and eventually the humiliation by the Authorities as they tried not merely to shame him but kill him while putting the fear of death in his followers.
Now while these ideas religion operated on daily flourished, Jesus tried to open their eyes but they refused to hear it as they could not bring themselves to admit they were wrong all their lives and their Church was dead to the reality of God for centuries…it was blasphemy to suggest such a thing.
How could they give that up? Well they could not, so when John said in his gospel, chapter 7 in the very first verse: 7:1 “After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.” John wasn’t kidding. And that same notion, abundantly rampant in the Christian world in particular and the religious world in general, persists to this very day and that is the insidious travesty visited upon humanity called supernaturalism.
And Jesus affirmed this religious mindset toward him and yet Christians today are persuaded that Jesus was a supernatural figure and that the Father is supernatural god and that could not be further from the truth. Modern Christians today are backsliders following the traditions of their ancestry since the days of Jesus.
In that same chapter of John chapter 7 in verse 6 & 7, Jesus declared the hostility that the Church fathers had against him to his brothers, when they pestered Jesus to go the the Annual (Big Event) Festival so they could glean off his fame that was spreading across villages like wildfire (for neither did his brothers believe him) “Then Jesus said unto them, you go, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
7 The (religious) world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.”
So you see Eduard, all I am doing is reiterating what Jesus said by revelation when he was here, and I, by reason of having been privileged to understand what Jesus was talking about find myself compelled to tell the world as much as I am able, the truth about Jesus and when you understand that concept you will understand what being born again means because until you understand the concept of the Father dwelling within you, as Jesus told you over and over again throughout the Gospels, you are not born again.
Oh you can say “I’m born again” by repetitious rote to please those who haven’t got a clue about the real Jesus because the protocol chant of Christianity is to “name it and claim it”.
Remember, the supernatural idea of men is the “God” they refer to but the “Father” within us all, as Jesus said clearly in Luke 17: 20-21, lives in his kingdom and “that Kingdom is within you”. THAT is where the Father resides, lives, abides. THAT Father, scientifically called in today’s age: memory, learning and a great big bundle of experiences including wrongness and righteousness, as we learn. This is something we are endowed with from birth not baptized into, or born into inherited privilege like a Kim Jong Un in North Korea. “Being Human” is “learning” to crawl, walk, run, remember, live with and practice. It is the human experience and recognizing that concept is what Jesus taught and preached and parabled about for 3 and a half years. Know that and you can rightfully say “you are born again” because of the understanding of the concept Jesus demonstrated.
A rich young ruler came and said “Good Master” and the Lord Jesus immediately said “Why do you call me good”. There is only one who is good, God. So please don’t congratulate me, all I am doing, as man, is allowing my Father, in me, to be as good as God is.
So when you look at me, allowing him to be who he is, doing as he pleases, clothing his divine activity with my humanity; when you look at me, you see him. Don’t call me good. I’m simply, as man, discharging that office for which I made man, to give a physical visible representation of an invisible self intimately identified with an invisible God and my Father who lives in me, he does the work, what I do he does, what I say he says, what I am he is, so when you look at me, you see him. That’s sinlessness. Simple isn’t it? “Oh, by the way, says the Lord Jesus, as my Father sent me……..I send you.
I’m anticipating that you will place your humanity at my disposal as I am now placing my humanity at my Father’s disposal. So that there’s only one possible explanation for what I do, for what I say and for what I am, my Father living in me by the holy spirit so henceforth there will be only one possible explanation for what you do, what you say and what you are, my living in you by the same holy spirit. Allowed by you, to be to you what I am allowing my Father now to be to me, God. Now this is the Christian life; this is the gospel, this is the good news; that on the grounds of the redemptive transactions because he was prepared to lay down his life, a ransom for many, so that he being risen again from out of the place of the dead, out of the belly of Sheol can come and take up residence within your humanity, spiritually, and be now to you all that he allowed for thirty three years the Father to be for him.
Now you see, we’re without excuse because the Lord Jesus deliberately chose to sanctify himself, so that we in him would know the truth whereby we too may be sanctified. Sanctify them through thy word, thy word is truth; in other words, Jesus’ word contains a principle; it’s a principle to live by. I don’t mean pretty little bible stories that you simply know, textually, so that you can tell the story of Daniel and the lion’s den; or, David and Goliath, all part of inspired word but you see if you just memorize bible stories or for that matter memorize bible verses but you don’t understand the truth, the principle that Jesus is communicating, then you might just as well recite three blind mice and this is the tragedy with countless evangelical, born again believers, they have a bible that they’ve come to know textually but they’ve never learned the truth!
You see the Lord Jesus came magnificently to reveal and to demonstrate the proposition, the divine logic of which is absolutely imperative to a man’s humanity. And in explaining this to you, I’m simply preaching the gospel. Don’t please imagine that the gospel is simply come to Jesus and have your sins forgiven; that isn’t the gospel. You will only have your sins forgiven if you are prepared to come to the Lord Jesus and accept him into your life for the saviour he came to be but THAT IS NOT GOSPEL. That simply lets you off the hook; that simply changes your destination; that simply trades hell for heaven but Jesus Christ didn’t come into this world simply to get you and me out of hell and into heaven; he came into this world supremely to get God out of heaven in to you and to me by revealing that’s where he’s been living all along but you just didn’t know it. But now we do know it because Jesus revolutionized human thought……out of the darkness of belief…… into the light of knowledge.
You don’t imagine that God takes any pleasure in having a heaven filled with men and women redeemed in the blood of his incarnate son who will be as useless in heaven as they were on earth? Stacked in bundles of 10, dusted with DDT once a week by a bunch of angels, do you imagine that’s what heaven’s going to be like? Heaven is going to be populated with men, women, boys and girls, who’ve been restored to their redeemed and now true humanity!
Know that about Jesus and you are “born again”.
My hope for you and all who read these words is for the peace of knowledge to rest easy upon your mind in the privacy of your own thoughts. The Father and the Comforter connecting the Son within you. This is why the Father sees everything you do in secret: he lives there, if you let him. And that, Eduard, is the message and the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ….
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November 16, 2016 at 6:36 pm
For those of you who can speak in an unknown language at any time, and you are speaking mysteries, and speaking not unto man, but unto God.
1 Corinthians 14:2
I have a question for you.
What are your experiences with 1 Corinthians 14:13?
Specifically this question is to those who can speak/sing in the Spirit at any given time, and the language is unknown to them, and it changes.
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November 16, 2016 at 10:11 pm
I don’t know why anyone who speaks in tongues couldn’t sing in tongues. You merely sing the words rather than just speaking them “normally.” I sing in tongues every once in a while. The infrequency is not the lack of some enablement by the Spirit, but merely a lack of desire. But whenever I desire to sing in tongues, I do it.
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November 17, 2016 at 4:12 am
Thanks Theo, and your thoughts on 1 Cor. 14:13? Interpretation experiences? Alone with God, and in another setting possibly with just a few people, and in another setting like a church service?
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November 17, 2016 at 1:54 pm
Jason:
I sing in tongues too, but just as easily speak them….. but I also understand what they mean:
quando mundo, onedo dando….
Oh quando mundo, onedo dando….
and I can easily interpret them:
When will the world become as One
When will the world become as Onedo
Let it be for me to see,
quando mundo, onedo dando….
lol
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November 17, 2016 at 10:06 pm
ChildofGod, I have seen both where one person gives a message in tongues and another person interprets it, as well as instances where the person who gave the message in tongues interprets it.
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November 18, 2016 at 1:53 am
How come I had the ability to speak in tongues back in 1982 after I was baptized and i left God for a while and can not do tongues anymore? Would anyone know that answer? A pastor told me once you get it you never lose it. I do have a the Holy Spirit now yet can not speak in tongues why is that?
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November 18, 2016 at 2:03 am
Carla, Smith Wigglesworth said some things about it you may find interesting:
“God wanted to show me that the speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave utterance, which I received when I received the Baptism, was distinct from the gift of tongues which I subsequently received.”
http://www.smithwigglesworth.com/sermons/eif18.htm
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November 18, 2016 at 4:07 am
Theo,
The person who gave the message in tongues, and they interpreted their own tongues, what would an example of that be like? I am assuming your last statement, is in a public setting both instances you mentioned.
Carla,
I have heard before that you can lose it, I met a widow the other day who said she used to speak in tongues but doesn’t anymore. I do not know her, but I would definitely want to ask her if I saw her again what happened. I have met some people not to long ago who say they can speak in tongues when they are in deep prayer but not at will at any time. My question for you is when you had the ability to speak in tongues back in 1982, was it at anytime that you could speak? or only certain times?
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November 22, 2016 at 10:54 am
In response to your inquisitive dear Carla, you can speak in an unknown tongues at any given time, place or event. If your spirit is always charging with the Holy Spirit or the word of God, then its a GOAL!
In subsequently, if you do not perpetually continual speak in tongue, you may lose the gift and ability.
Can you gain it back if lost? Sure! You can … The food of the Holy Spirit are;
> singing hymn or praises
>>medicating on His word daily and be a doer not hearer only.
>>>love others
>>>>pray without cease.
Continuation of these ‘ll restored your lost tongues and this time, you maybe giving the spirit of interpretations (not all that speaks in tongues can interpret.)
Shalom!!!
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December 30, 2016 at 8:32 am
Been a while since I’ve checked the posts here. In response to a few regarding the Pentecost narrative, here’s a (somewhat lengthy) response –
In describing the events of Pentecost with respect to languages/tongues, most people ascribe one of two possibilities: xenoglossia or glossolalia.
I think any way it’s analyzed, we can rule out glossolalia, particularly the modern Pentecostal phenomenon of ‘tongues’; these were clearly real languages the listeners understood; not ecstatic utterances. The description of the event is, at first glance, virtually an ancient ‘textbook example’ of what is known as xenoglossia or xenoglossy – the ability to speak in a REAL language the speaker has in no way, shape, or form ever been exposed to.
Some will argue a miracle of hearing – people HEARD them speaking these languages (but the apostles themselves were not actually speaking them). In postulating a miracle of hearing, what was actually spoken becomes more or less irrelevant.
With respect to what transpired however, a very viable third alternative must be given serious consideration which negates the necessity of a ‘language miracle’ – it simply involves taking a closer look at what languages were actually historically spoken by the Jews, and something called “ecclesiastical diglossia”:
We are told that there were Jews from “every nation under heaven” gathered in Jerusalem. The phrase “every nation under heaven” is an idiomatic expression meaning simply “from all over”. It is analogous to expressions used today such as “all over the word”, or “from everywhere on the planet” – it’s not meant to be taken literally. In fact, the narrative goes on to state specifically where those visiting Jerusalem were from (Acts 2:9-11). It is a listing of geographic places (about 10) and groups of people (about 5). The important thing to note is that NOWHERE does it specifically mention what languages these people spoke; in fact, *nowhere* in the entire narrative is even one language mentioned by name….not one. This has led many people over the ages to assume that each place referenced in the narrative had its own specific language or languages or that the list is an actual list of languages; it is just naturally assumed that the Diaspora Jews spoke a dozen or so languages which the apostles were not at all familiar with.
If we look at the attendees for this religious holiday in a practical manner however, we can draw a simple conclusion – the masses of people referred to in Acts can be divided into two groups: the “devout Jews” that lived in Judea (Palestine/Israel) – Group 1, and the “devout Jews” from “every nation under heaven”, i.e. the Jews of the Diaspora – Group 2.
By far, the bulk of the people in Jerusalem for Pentecost would have in all likelihood consisted of those from Group 1 since they lived the closest to Jerusalem. Think about it – this is analogous to say having some sort of International Conference of Widget Makers in Boston, MA. The bulk of people attending would come right from Boston and the New England area, with lesser and lesser percentages of attendees coming from further and further away with the smallest percentage coming from abroad. In other words, at Pentecost in Jerusalem, the bulk of the people there would come right from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. What was the everyday language of Jews from this area at this time period? Simple; Aramaic, but also Greek to a lesser extent.
Turning to the Diaspora (those Jews living outside of Judea), we must make a differentiation between those of the eastern Diaspora and those of the western Diaspora. In addition to the obvious geographic differences, this was a difference in language as well. The people of the western Diaspora lived in areas around the Mediterranean basin; an area which had been very heavily Hellenized for centuries. Places like Pontus, Cappadocia, Pamphylia, etc. had been Greek speaking for centuries. The native language of these western Diaspora Jews was simply Greek. Different countries, yes, but linguistically, all one language. Those Jews of the eastern Diaspora came from places that had never been Hellenized and, as ethnic minorities living in a land either they themselves or their ancestors immigrated to, retained Aramaic as their predominant native language. This is analogous to an ethnic group living in Yourtown, USA – some people in this group will learn and speak English, but amongst themselves, their native language and customs are retained.
In a nutshell, the crowds gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost would have likely spoken only two languages; Greek and Aramaic. Greek was the language of Jews from the western Diaspora and Aramaic the language of those Jews from the eastern Diaspora and, of course, Judea itself. One must note that absolutely *nowhere* in the entire narrative does it suggest there was any type of a communication problem to begin with! In Acts 2:14, Peter spoke to the entire crowd in one language and apparently was understood by everyone; I would strongly argue the language he used was Greek; the “English” of its day, understood in varying degrees by everyone in that area of the world.
To paraphrase from an excellent article written on the subject by Robert Zerhusen: This creates a huge problem for any sort of language miracle – the disciples, being Hellenized Jews living in Judea would have spoken both languages. So what then were these “other tongues” the narrative refers to? Very simply, the “other languages” would have been nothing more than Greek and Aramaic. But why would the narrative call them “other languages” when they would have been familiar to the disciples(speakers)? Other than WHAT language? Why would the crowd react with such amazement and even ridicule and anger if/when they heard the disciples teaching/proclaiming in Aramaic and Greek (mind you, languages the disciples already knew)?
To gain a better understanding and to try and put it in better perspective one must look at the significance of the Hebrew language in Jewish culture.
What one must understand is that in many ancient cultures (in this case the Jewish culture) the language of prayer, worship, and in some cases religious teaching/proselytizing was very specific. Something we really don’t have today here in America so it’s hard to relate to. In many cultures (both in ancient times and even today), when you pray, you pray in one specific prescribed language…period. For 1st century Jews, this was Hebrew. To do so in another language was simply unheard of and unthinkable (though Aramaic was allowed in some cases for some prayers). As odd and even nonsensical as it sounds to us today, for a Jew at that time, to hear someone praising, proclaiming, or praying to THEIR God in say Galatian or Assyrian, or even Aramaic and Greek for that matter, would have been utterly shocking and sort of akin to violating a cultural taboo; it just wasn’t done. It should however be noted that, with the Hellenization of the Mediterranean basin, Greek was very slowly becoming an acceptable language for Judaism alongside Hebrew.
The linguistic phenomenon we need to consider here is called diglossia; the use of two different languages (or in some cases, variations of the same language) by a people under certain social conventions/situations. This exists today in some European countries. For example in German speaking Switzerland the language of government, newspapers, television, education, etc. is High German whilst the general populace speaks Swiss German, arguably a completely separate, but very closely related, language to German In Greece one sees “katharevusa” the “high language” of literature, education, etc., but people speak ‘demotic‘ Greek (the lower language) on a day to day basis.
There is typically a distinction in prestige between the high language (H) and the low language (L). H is seen as superior to L in most instances. H is used to express more important thoughts, it is seen as somehow more beautiful, etc. than L. H is seen as connecting the community to its past, some believe that H is more divinely sanctioned. To use L in certain situations (religious settings, for example) was seen as a major taboo and culturally unacceptable.
First century Judeans would have viewed Hebrew as the H language and Aramaic and/or Greek, depending on where you were from, as the L language(s).
This is something akin to pre Vatican II in the Catholic Church where the H language was Latin and the L language(s) were the local vernacular(s). When diglossia typically occurs only in a religious setting, it is often referred to as “ecclesiastical diglossia”. In some cases, even into fairly modern times, violating the rules of ecclesiastical diglossia can be met with dire consequences; William Tyndale was executed in the early 1500’s for violating ecclesiastical diglossia in England when he translated the Bible (H language – Latin) into English (L language – vernacular).
“Other tongues/languages” to Jews when it came to religion was very simple – languages other than Hebrew. The ‘other languages’ for the vast majority of the world’s Jews at that time were simply Greek and Aramaic.
The Jewish crowd in Jerusalem for Shavuot/Pentecost expected to be hearing what is called (in Hebrew) “leshon ha-kodesh” – the holy language, i.e. Hebrew, the H language. This was the expectation even though Hebrew would not be intelligible to most of them; it was the cultural expectation. They would never expect to hear ordinary people boldly prophesying in the L languages (Aramaic and Greek) in this situation, particularly on a religious holiday; it would simply not have been culturally acceptable and looked upon as a major violation of this ecclesiastical diglossia.
When the crowds heard the disciples boldly proclaiming in the “other languages” of Greek and Aramaic (the native languages of the Jews gathered there), they reacted in utter amazement and astonishment. Some were even angered at this very clear violation of ecclesiastical diglossia and even accused them of being drunk.
The phrase “are not all those speaking, Galileans?” usually is understood to mean that because the disciples speaking were Galileans, how could they possibly know all these languages from all these different places?
When put into the context of ecclesiastical diglossia however, the phrase takes on a totally new meaning. The phrase should be read with the understanding something to the effect of: clearly, if these people speaking are Galileans, they should know better than to dare to do such an unheard of thing as to speak Aramaic and Greek (the L languages – our native languages) instead of the proper sacred language of Hebrew (which this situation clearly calls for).
To conclude, if we take the historical situation into account, analyze the likely composition, geographic and linguistic make-up of the attendees, and view this in the light of the existing ecclesiastical diglossia, the conclusion is simple: there really was no language miracle and certainly no ecstatic utterances on Pentecost – there was no need of either; it was simply the disciples prophesying and teaching in the common languages of Aramaic and Greek (which they all were familiar with) instead of the more proper and expected Hebrew (which the rules of ecclesiastical diglossia demanded in this situation). The real miracle or ‘gift’ of the Holy Spirit here may have simply been the apostles finding the courage to go out and boldly preach in the everyday languages of those gathered for the feast; the disciples were, we are told, people supposedly literally in fear of their lives behind locked doors after the execution of their leader, Jesus, by the foreign occupiers (the Romans) of their homeland. The true gift of the Spirit may have been simply the courage for them to overcome this fear. The language used to speak to the masses simply Aramaic and Greek, being done for perhaps the first time in clear violation of centuries of ecclesiastic diglossia to illustrate that the message of the disciples (and subsequently Christianity) need not be solely limited to the expected H language of Hebrew.
There are, as one would expect, some arguments against the above; the most critical I have seen gives five points that must be substantiated to more or less prove the above. They are: 1) Did Judean diglossia exist? 2) Would the disciples be able to speak Greek/Aramaic? 3) Was the native language of those present Greek/Aramaic? 4) Would Judean diglossia explain the bewilderment, amazement and astonishment of those hearing the disciples? 5) What is the significance of the event?
The five points the author makes are legitimate, but three of them (1, 2, and 5) can virtually be dismissed.
Yes, we know from historical sources, and even as practiced today, that ecclesiastical diglossia existed in Judaism. Take a look at a Passover booklet (you see these around Passover in many supermarkets that have a special “Passover food section” (Maxwell House coffee used to put a lot of these out)). The booklet gives the traditional Passover text and songs in Hebrew (one or two may be in Aramaic) along with a phonetic rendering so that a speaker of English can recite the text in Hebrew – the text is also given in English, but the intro to the booklet clearly indicates that the Hebrew text should be used if at all possible.
Yes, the disciples would have spoken both languages – Aramaic was their native language, Greek was a common language in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas.
The significance of course was that going forward, the teaching of Christianity did not have to be done in any one prescribed language – local vernacular could be used without fear of and cultural repercussions (see more below).
Of the two remaining, point 3 seems to be the weaker of the two and point 4 can be argued either way. In fact, the author concedes that points one and two are very provable and has no argument against them.
Here are my counter-arguments for the remaining points:
*Point 3* – (The only two languages of the Diaspora as Greek and Aramaic) – Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be anything absolutely 100% conclusive either way. Evidence seems to suggest that Jews in the Diaspora tended to live in the larger cities (i.e. they were more ‘urban’) and more likely to keep their language than adopt the one of the country they were living in – that’s not to say a Jew from say Parthia would not know Middle Persian/Parthian, but most likely it would not be his/her native language.
For Jews living in the western Diaspora, there really was only one language: Greek. These lands had been Hellenized for generations and Greek, due to it being so widespread as a lingua franca, was seen as perfectly acceptable as opposed to keeping Aramaic as one’s mother tongue and learning Greek as a second (or third) language. In fact, because of the dominance of Greek among the western Diaspora, there was a need for a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Septuagint, which became the standard text used in the synagogues of the western Diaspora, is evidence that Greek was the native language of these Judeans. One may even postulate that in the western Diaspora, Greek was slowly being seen more and more as an acceptable ‘H language’ alongside Hebrew.
It’s the eastern Diaspora that gets a bit tricky.
This point (Aramaic or local languages), I agree, could be argued well either way simply due to the lack of evidence. It is however reasonable to suggest that a Jewish ethnic and religious group in the eastern Diaspora would tend to keep their language and culture as well as learn the language and culture of the country they are living in. Zerhusen states “Although Greek was used in Palestine and had penetrated parts of the eastern Diaspora, the Aramaic language continued to dominate in the east. Jacob Neusner says of the use of Aramaic and Greek among the eastern Diaspora: “Most Jews…did not speak Greek but Aramaic (this is inferred from Josephus’ writings, and from later literature), and in later periods produced literature in Hebrew and Aramaic”. F.F. Bruce, discussing the language situation of the eastern Diaspora listed in Acts 2:9-11, wrote: “Parthia, Media, Elam (Elymias) and Mesopotamia lay east of the Euphrates, the Jews in those areas spoke Aramaic. These were the lands of the earliest dispersion, to which exiles from the ten northern tribes of Israel had been deported by the Assyrians in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C. We may recall here (see 2 Kgs 18:19-28) that prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and exile of the Judeans, ordinary Judeans spoke Hebrew as their native tongue and were unfamiliar with Aramaic. This linguistic situation was completely reversed by the time the Judeans returned from their exile. When they returned to Palestine, Hebrew was no longer their native tongue, having been replaced by Aramaic. The most reasonable explanation for this linguistic shift is that the native language for the eastern Diaspora had become Aramaic.”
As a fairly modern comparison, I live in a city that had a huge textile producing mill in the late 1800’s early 1900’s. The mill actively recruited workers from literally all over Europe (east and west) and thus, we have a huge ethnic diversity here – many of these ethnic groups still preserve their language and culture to this day. Even today I see this happening – my city has seen in the last ten years or so a huge influx of Bosnians, Somalians and Hispanics. They all closely preserve their language and culture (and learn our culture, and English as a second language to theirs – well to be honest, some of them do learn English, some do not).
Though this may not be the same situation as Jews living in the Diaspora two thousand years ago, there’s no reason to assume people wouldn’t do the same thing with regards to preserving their identity and not wanting to blend into the masses. Getting back to the example of Jews of Parthia – I would argue that Aramaic would have been the language of home and within the Jewish community while Parthian would have been a second (or third) language to be used with the “locals” when needed, it was never a mother tongue.
*Point 4* – (The author argues that Greek as well as Hebrew could be regarded as the “H language,” the more proper language to use) – Greek seems to be gaining quite a bit of ground during this time period as being an acceptable alternative to Hebrew as the ‘H language’ particularly amongst the western Diaspora (see Point 3 above). While the evidence is inconclusive, what little there is seems to point to this. While there certainly may have been those present who would think nothing of hearing the disciples speak in Greek, for some, it was clearly still not culturally acceptable. The narrative comments on the astonishment, bewilderment, amazement, and apparently for some, anger, of the crowd in hearing this being done evidences the use of Greek as still being considered by many as unacceptable.
*Point 5* – (The significance of it all) I don’t see this as really being an argument, but….as previously stated, there is really nowhere in the entire narrative that suggests there was any type of a communication problem to begin with! Peter spoke to the crowd in one language (Acts 2:14) and apparently was understood by everyone (of course, we have no clue what language that was, but I would strongly suspect and argue Greek). So if no language miracle took place, what was the point? To paraphrase from Zerhusen – Luke’s purpose in presenting the list (with Cyprus and Syria missing) was perhaps not intended to represent linguistic diversity, but rather may suggest that the first apostolic ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a whole (Diaspora included).
The real miracle of the Holy Spirit here may simply have been to give the disciples the courage and spiritual strength to “spread the word” and to dispose of the cultural necessity to do so in one (or two) language(s) (i.e. observe strict adherence to ecclesiastical diglossia). They could now break that cultural barrier and use the local vernaculars without fear of any reprise.
As an aside, there some will make the distinction that the Bible uses both “tongue” and “dialect” – the passage was “They hear them speaking in their own dialect/vernacular (Gk.’dialektw’).”
I think this is a case of people are reading way too much into individual words and over-analyzing why one word is used over another. Yes, in modern usage there’s an obvious difference between language (glossa) vs. dialect/vernacular (dialektw), but the word ‘dialect’ is used even today by many people to refer to what are actually languages; “My friend from Zimbabwe speaks an African dialect.” Or even “She speaks in the local dialect of Toshkent.” What’s really meant here, dialect or language? I would argue it’s clearly language. Luke simply chooses to use the word dialektw instead of glossa. The Greek word ‘dialektos’ may be translated either as ‘language’ or ‘dialect’ (with the meaning of ‘language’ as in my examples above). There are other passages in the Bible where the word ‘dialektos’ clearly refers to language, not what we think of as a dialect (i.e. Yorkshire English as opposed to the English of Kent).
The bottom line here is that the “tongues” of Pentecost were most certainly never modern Pentecostal glossolalia, nor were they several various languages; they were simply two languages that everyone knew but were not allowed to use because of cultural taboos. The disciples broke through this cultural barrier and once could almost say, “paved the way” for the spread of a new religion called Christianity.
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December 30, 2016 at 8:37 am
Converts to Judaism – unfortunately, the narrative doesn’t specify where these converts came from, but all things considered, it’s likely the converts came from the Mediterranean basin which, for the most part, was virtually all Greek speaking (different countries and lands, but all linguistically the same language).
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December 30, 2016 at 8:45 am
As others have noted, glossolalia (tongues) can be just as easily be sung as it can be ‘spoken’. No difference in how it’s generated. What’s interesting is that it is never written as the speaker usually can not repeat what s/he just said, let alone try and write it.
That said, if recorded, it can certainly be written down – I’ve included a sample below. What I would be curious to know is if it were read back aloud, would anyone be able to “interpret” it, or can interpretation only come from an ‘original’ glossic string?
So here it is….for those who may have never seen a ‘tongue’ transcribed, below is an example taken right off of a YouTube video of a legitimate pastor speaking a ‘tongue’ – here’s a transcription of what the person is saying:
Káyntay háychee, háychee kéeho hóro. /kénte héči, héči kího hóro/
Máhcha keetáy lah mócho, /máča kité la móčo/
rána mahcháy nay keetáh lau. /rána mačé ne kitá lau/
Réhnah shay kée nah máhto. /rɛ’na še kí na máto/
Not sue what this will look like once posted, but if it come out correctly, essentially you read the above left-hand side as if it were English – the only convention I have used is to put an accent over the syllable in the ‘word’ that receives the main stress. The ‘ay’ here is the ‘ay’ in “day”, and of course, don’t forget to trill your R’s. The ‘word’ divisions and punctuation written is an assumption only and is based solely on the speaker’s intonation and phrasing. The right-hand side is a basic IPA phonetic transcription of the same.
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December 30, 2016 at 9:19 am
Kavik:
Thank you for your Christ Clear Commentary. Lengthy yes but commentary demands length at times to explain nuance. It brought to mind some of my own memorable moments.
There was a world renown performer who went to China to give a concert. At the outset of the concert the person came to the microphone and very emphatically and articulately said….“Nǐ hǎo”….the crowd erupted in huge applause and melted the crowd as everyone heard the greeting in their own language. It was an overwhelming welcome to the artist for showing respect into the audience world of language by signal one simple greeting!
Furthermore, as to the H and L variants of language:
“Nín hǎo” is the respectful form of “nǐ hǎo” – it’s used with people whom you want to express respect towards (a teacher, perhaps). “Nín hǎo” is actually used and appropriate in such situations.
Yes, the miracle as you state, could easily have been the courage it took to overcome years of cultural tradition, centuries even, as the courage shown by Jesus himself when his disciples picked corn on the Sabbath and when infirmities required attention by the masses regardless of whether it was the Sabbath or not and he was labeled a blasphemer because of it. This courage infuriated the traditionalists of course and we know what the end of their wrath against the establishment entailed.
Thank you.
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December 30, 2016 at 10:22 am
I was baptized in a Pentecostal Church in 1982 and I received the gift of tongues. At the time i did not know it was a Pentecostal Church. But I did leave that Church and went away from God. When I found out that it was a Pentecostal Church and heard Christian say that People in Pentecostal Church’s is misled by satan. I was totally grieved about it. Now I’m back with the Lord and I do know for sure I have the Holy Spirit. I think it does not matter where we are baptized God knows our heart.
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December 30, 2016 at 10:49 am
@Leo,
You’re correct with “Nin hao?” vs. “Ni hao?”. However, this isn’t quite the same as diglossia. This is a great example of “honorific speech”. You’d use honorifics with someone you wish to show respect to (as you say, with a teacher, boss, a non family member who is older than you, etc.).
Normal diglossia would be more Swiss German or Bavarian as opposed to High German or Greek ‘Katharevousa’ vs. ‘Demotiki’. Ecclesiastical diglossia would be the use of Latin in the pre-Vatican II RC Church as opposed to the local vernacular, or Classical Arabic in Islam (it’s interesting to see people from places like Indonesia reciting the Qu’ran in Arabic).
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December 30, 2016 at 11:02 am
To Kavik
Many thanks for your very interesting response to the generally accepted Pentecostal explanation of Acts 2.
Certainly is a very clear explanation and answers a lot of questions I have.
What is your understanding of when the Holy Spirit came on them in the upper room it says they all began to speak in other languages as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance. Do you think He gave them the permission to speak in other languages like the Greek and Aramaic?
Also in Acts when Peter went to the Gentiles the Holy Spirit came on them and they began to speak in other languages. What do you think was happening here as if at Pentecost they were not speaking the things of God in Hebrew but Greek possibly, yet in Acts 10 it was Gentiles who received the Gospel not Jews yet these people spoke in other languages and Peter seems to link it back to Acts 2 when they received the Holy Spirit.
And then in 1 Corinthian 12 and 14 we have one of the gifts of the Spirit being speaking in other languages and Paul saying that when he speaks in another language his spirit prays but his understanding is unfruitful. What do you think is going on here?
Will be studying your lengthy response in great detail!
Martyn
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December 31, 2016 at 7:05 am
I’m going to try and answer your questions, but keep in mind, I’m not a theologian; I’m a Linguist, so it’s just my opinion….
I think the Holy Spirit gave the apostles the courage to go out and teach the people about the message of Jesus’s teachings; there were, we are told, people who were behind locked doors in essentially in fear of their lives after the execution of their leader by foreign occupiers of their homeland. Taking a look at this from a historical point of view kind of puts things into better perspective. Further it was culturally unacceptable to teach religious matters, pray, praise, etc. in anything but Hebrew (though Greek was gaining acceptance). I don’t think the Holy Spirit gave them any sort of permission, but like I say, I think gave them the courage to go out and teach and furthermore to do that teaching in the languages of the people so the message could gain as wide an audience as possible and spread as far as it could.
This breaking of a cultural taboo/barrier (in this case ecclesiastical diglossia) would have been huge – it just wasn’t done.
As Robert Zerhusen suggests in his article (referenced in above posts), Luke’s purpose in presenting the list (with Cyprus and Syria missing – probably scrivener’s errors over centuries of copying) was perhaps not intended to represent linguistic diversity, but rather may suggest that the first apostolic ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a whole (Diaspora included).
Your second paragraph – the passages you reference don’t sound familiar – can you please provide the chapter and verse numbers?
This passage in Corinthians, “For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.” is one of the most frequently quoted to support ‘tongues’ as practiced by Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians.
I think, however, one has to look at the passage in the context of the entire paragraph; one can’t “cherry pick” a line as it is way too easy to take it out of context of the entire passage. In the case of 1 Cor. 14:14, I think it needs to be read into context of 1 Cor. 13 through 1 Cor. 17.
One interpretation of the passage (provided by a minister, not me) is this:
“My feelings find utterance in prayer; my heart is engaged in devotion; my prayer will be acceptable to God, who looks upon the feelings of the heart, and I may have true enjoyment; but my understanding will be unfruitful, that is, will not profit others. What I say will not he understood by them; and of course, however much benefit I might derive from my devotions, yet they would be useless to others.”
“It is probable that the word “spirit” refers to the “will;” or to the mind, as the seat of the affections and emotions; that is, to the heart, desires, or intentions. The word “spirit” is often used in the Scriptures as the seat of the affections, and emotions, and passions of various kinds.”
Another way to look at it is that Paul may be simply referring to the concept of teaching prayers in Hebrew rather than the languages spoken by the people. Thus, if one learned to pray in Hebrew which ecclesiastical diglossia required, one’s spirit (higher self, mind’s will) is praying, but that praying is done in a language the speaker may not speak or understand, thus their understanding is unfruitful.
Yet another way of looking at it is that, for example, I could teach you a poem or perhaps even a short song (or both) in say, Welsh, and you could learn them and recite/sing them perfectly well, even to near native fluency with enough practice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you understand Welsh or even exactly one word of what you’re actually saying/singing. As Paul states in 1 Cor. 14:14, “your spirit is praying/singing, but your understanding is unfruitful”.
Clarity seems to be key here – praying needs to be done in a language the speaker knows and can understand, however, if done at a public worship, must be translated into the local vernacular(s) so that all may benefit.
If we came here to Corinth and teach you to pray in Greek, but hey, you’re from Galicia and don’t speak Greek, those prayers will be offered by your spirit (i.e. you’ll be praying earnestly), but you yourself aren’t going to understand a word you’re saying – what good is it to you?
I’m kind of rambling on here, but I think you get the idea – real language is being referred to here, not the ecstatic speech of glossolalia/modern tongues.
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January 14, 2017 at 6:01 pm
If anyone of you believes that they have the gift of interpretation, please reply back because i would like to speak and let you interpret. We can exchange info if your interested. I think that it is possible that for those like me that can speak in unknown tongues at any time, that there is also someone with the gift of interpretation that can interpret at any time….
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January 14, 2017 at 9:07 pm
I have the gift of perfect interpretation and that’s why I know the Bible and you don’t.
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January 15, 2017 at 6:49 pm
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29
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January 17, 2017 at 7:46 am
@ ChildOfGod –
Are you able to transcribe what you’re saying? Just curious. See post 281 above for an example – doesn’t need to be in IPA, just normal writing with some sort of pronunciation ‘key’.
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January 17, 2017 at 10:05 am
C.O.D.
If you cannot transcribe as Kavik suggested then go to your phone or computer “voice to text” message system that messages with google technology…Google has a microphone to tap for transcribing voice to text recognition technology. When you have finished “speaking in tongues” copy the google transcription voice to text results, paste them to your post on this site and let Kavik et al have a look at your speech…Sounds cool to me.
Are you up to it and let the interpreters peek a boo.
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January 18, 2017 at 9:29 am
Best way, I think, is to simply use a voice recorder on your phone to record yourself speak. It can be played back numerous times until you have an accurate as possible written transcription of what was spoken.
Not sure a voice to text type program would work – I think those usually try and key in on a particular language.
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January 18, 2017 at 10:34 am
Kaki:
You are correct. In my own dictation “voice to text” gets a lot mixed up by trying to use a language phonetically. One time I told voice to text to dictate to my friend Lewis and he was confused after I sent the text without editing, why I called him Louise. lol
I know what you mean.
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January 18, 2017 at 7:41 pm
@Kavik
Let me first say to make this more interesting in reference to post 281 and 290. I can’t hear out of my right ear. I can barely hear out of my left ear. I wear a hearing aid in my left ear. I have severe hearing loss. So there really isn’t a way I could transcribe what I am saying to text. When I speak I can’t hear myself talk unless I have my hearing aid, which helps me a little bit.
It sounds like you might definitely have some great linguistic skills.
I do not have a facebook/twitter account. Perhaps there is another way? I will also note that it changes, the syllables, depending on where I am at any given day and time.
Can you pray in the Spirit at any given time? If so, have you interpreted the things you have spoken? If no on both of those questions, do you have an experience where you interpreted something for someone or a group of believers? If so, I will be glad to give you a call and speak or perhaps post somewhere it will allow me to put the audio…
The reasoning for interpreting for me is to build up the church. That is my motive.
1 Cor. 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
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January 18, 2017 at 8:46 pm
COD:
Build up the church? What church are you trying to build up? Are you starting your own church with a “speaking in tongues” theme? If so, Paul has a message about that aspect of church also.
Read Cor 1:14:4-5 again and listen to the message Paul is really speaking to.
“The one who prays using a private “prayer language” certainly gets a lot out of it, but proclaiming God’s truth to the church in its common language brings the whole church into growth and strength. I want all of you to develop intimacies with God in prayer, but please don’t stop with that. Go on and proclaim his clear truth to others. It’s more important that everyone have access to the knowledge and love of God in language everyone understands than that you go off and cultivate God’s presence in a mysterious prayer language—unless, of course, there is someone who can interpret what you are saying for the benefit of all.”
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January 19, 2017 at 5:11 am
@CoG –
Hmmm….okay; yeah, that would indeed make transcribing very difficult. The only other way would be to make the recording and post it as a file; however, sound files are typically huge and don’t always post because of size.
Not sure what the best method would be unless a third party were to try and transcribe it for you.
No, I do not use tongues, nor do I interpret (see previous posts). I can however mimic tongues. I’ve often thought that were I to “speak” to people who interpret, it would be really curious to see how that would go; particularly if I said the same thing to multiple ‘interpreters’.
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January 19, 2017 at 6:51 pm
-Kavik
Thanks for your reply,
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January 19, 2017 at 6:52 pm
-Kavik
Thanks for your reply,
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January 19, 2017 at 6:52 pm
-Kavik
Thanks for your reply,
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January 20, 2017 at 4:19 am
Excellent discussion. I do not believe, necessarily, that the exegesis of the text describing the phenomenon in Acts and the phenomenon in Corinth yields sufficient evidence, for me, to say that the same phenomenon is being describe in both locations. In Acts 2, no interpreter was needed. Each one “heard” in their own language. This is not the case in Corinth, and Paul makes if clear that interpretation is needed. If perhaps they are speaking a known language, then it begs the question of why no interpretation was needed at Pentecost and it was needed at Corinth, unless the speakers were speaking languages that they had never studied or even knew, in which case neither the speaker or the hearer would know the meaning, but that seems extremely odd and idiosyncratic to me.
It is possible then, taken with I Corinthians 13, that Paul is indeed describing something akin to heavenly language in Corinth. If that is the case, it seems the following must be kept in mind: 1) it is not “coached” by outside coaches or mentors. 2) it has no necessary connection to receiving the Spirit when one believes. 3) It can be chaotic and cause confusion in the service if not practiced properly and in order, 4) it is unintelligible to the hearer and is thus not-uplifting to them apart from interpretation, 5) it is not to be damned and prevented or totally squelched, even in light of these problems. 6) it has nothing to do with Christian maturity, There is no indication that the practicioners were mature or immature for that matter. 7) our fellow believer and guest and non-believers must be kept in mind in public gatherings. Paul makes this clear.
Great discussion.
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January 20, 2017 at 5:50 am
I don’t believe they are the same phenomenon – The Pentecostal narrative does not describe xenoglossy, nor does it describe a miracle of hearing; the “other languages” referred to were simply Greek and Aramaic; the mother tongues (sic!) of those local Jews in attendance as well as those of the Diaspora. “Other languages” you may ask? “Other than what?” The rules of ecclesiastical diglossia of the time demanded that teaching, evangelization, etc. such as what occurred at Pentecost be done in Hebrew (though Greek was slowly gaining influence as an acceptable alternative). The Jews gathered there expected to hear Hebrew, the culturally correct language to use in this situation – instead they heard the apostles speaking in their native languages of Greek and Aramaic; both of which the apostles would have spoken. The result was amazement, wonder, and even ridicule at such an obvious breach of cultural “etiquette”.
The real miracle of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost may simply have been to give the disciples the courage and spiritual strength to “spread the word” and to dispose of the cultural necessity to do so in one (or two) language(s) (i.e. observe strict adherence to ecclesiastical diglossia). They could now break that cultural barrier and use the local vernaculars, and speak to the people in a language they understood without fear of any reprise. The disciples broke through this cultural barrier and one could almost say, “paved the way” for the spread of a new religion called Christianity.
Corinth just describes people speaking in a language (i.e. their native language) at a public worship that no one else in attendance happens to speak. Given a multi-cultural and multi-lingual “double port” city like Corinth; to say that communication was an issue at times, I think would probably be an understatement. Even though Greek was the “English” of its day, particularly in the Mediterranean basin, not everyone spoke it in equal degrees – if you were “from away” you just had to know enough of it to conduct business.
As an example, if I attend a worship service in “East Haystack”, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there, say 50) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a bloody word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service. So it ends up being a “real language no one understands
I am, in fact, ‘not speaking to man, but to God’ (who understands all languages) and to those around me who don’t speak Lithuanian, I am ‘uttering mysteries in the Spirit’ (Spirit here meaning that my praying is earnest and from the heart ). Nowhere in Corinthians does it suggest or imply that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying. In his letter, Paul is calling for intelligibility and clarity – again, I think this speaks to the common everyday issues in Corinth – if there’s no one there to translate (into Greek – the language of Corinth) for you, or if you don’t speak Greek well enough to pray aloud at a public worship, for the sake of clarity, it’s better if you don’t say anything at all so as not to create or add to any confusion. AS you stated in point ‘5’ above, praying in one’s native language should not be discouraged; it just should not be done at a public worship unless there’s someone there to translate for you.
As a bit of an aside – where the Bible has “interpret”, “interpretation”, it should be understood to mean ‘translate’ and ‘translation’. Semantically (and this is kind of splitting hairs here, but that’s kind of what semantics does), when we use ‘translate’ in modern English, though it can certainly refer to the spoken language, typically it is used for written language. ‘Interpret’, on the other hand, implies something spoken – both mean exactly the same thing (render language X into language Y); it’s the context that usually determines which to use. A “German Translator” could ‘translate’ the spoken word, but one typically associates the phrase with someone who would work with a written document. With “German Interpreter” on the other hand, one associates this with perhaps a tour group and someone who ‘translates’ the spoken word. As another example, notice you don’t typically hear “ASL Translator” (ASL – American Sign Language), but usually “ASL Interpreter” – people speak of an “interpreter for the deaf”, not usually a “translator for the deaf”. Spoken word versus written. Nothing mysterious or divine taking place here.
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January 22, 2017 at 12:27 am
thanks for the help thanks for your help I visited a church where the majority speak in the same tongue same words I allways thought that was strange but what do I know
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January 24, 2017 at 3:17 am
Kevin
Very interesting comments and thoughts on this very difficult subject.
The point I do not understand is that in 1 Corinthians 12 v 8 Paul lists the 9 gift or manifestations of the Holy Spirit which includes speaking in different languages and interpretation of languages.
If what you are saying is that speaking in other languages is no more than just someone with the ability to speak in another language they have learnt but they have to only speak in church the language that everyone recognizes then I am wondering what is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit or gift of the Holy Spirit of speaking in other languages and interpretation of other languages if its just that natural ability to speak in other languages that even the unbeliever is able to do. Some can even speak 5, 6 and even more languages fluently but this cannot be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit if an unbeliever is able to do it.
So what are these 2 gifts of the Holy Spirit…speaking in other languages and interpretation of other languages?
In 1 Corinthians 14 v 13 Paul says “For this reason anyone who speaks in other languages should pray that he may interpret what he says”
If the speaker is speaking a language he already knows why would he need to pray for the interpretation to what he is saying? Others may not know but he does so why pray for the interpretation.
You say
“Nowhere in Corinthians does it suggest or imply that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying”
But surely if he has to pray that he may interpret what he is saying he must not understand what he is saying. If and Englishman speaks in French fluently he know what he is saying, he dosnt need to pray for the interpretation as he knows what he is saying.
With reference to Post 285 and 286 the reference I was making is in Acts 10 v 44 to 47
The Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles who heard the message and Peter and those who came with him were astonished that the Holy Spirit was poured out even upon the Gentiles and the evidence that Peter know this was so was that they began to speak in other languages and praise God.
Peter recounts this to the church in Jerusalem when they accused him of going into the house of Gentiles and in Acts 11 v 15 he says the Holy Spirit came on then as on us at the beginning and the one thing that linked the event was that they spoke in other languages.
The problem I have that in todays churches we never ever hear currant european languages, no Asian, Indian, Japanese languages. Its always made up from words from the English Alphabet especially in Western Churches. Is not that odd that despite the use of the internet, recordings on mobile phones etc there are very few if not any recording of any one I can find speaking in a genuine French, German, Spanish language by the gift of the Holy Spirit on youtube or anywhere else.
Its always repletion of phrases made from the alphabet. I notice on your post of 281 the words are all phonetically spelt from the alphabet and I see no one has rushed to interpret!
When people claim they are speaking in other languages by the Holy Spirit yet they are never any know language spoken in the 21st Century so that they can be verified by anyone from the country the language is identified from then it really is open to wonder why.
I have so called spoken in other languages at my church and made it up and no one spotted it.
All these so called Spirit filled Christians had no discernment that I was making it up.
Problem is that is sound like everyone else who also may be making it up and not realize it.
Its called disillusionment!!
Folk are so earnest to do as others say they do to fit in and not look odd so they are told to speak out the first thing that comes into their mind.
So here goes. Rappa ceka duma coradanto du la karanta!
I have just typed that from off my keyboard but say with a slight quiver and add Oh Jesus at the end and there you are you have it brother but if I belived that then I would be deceiving myself.
I read recently from the Charasmatic Catholic Magazine that these Spirit filled Catholic Christians made comment in an review that the Holy Spirit is the Husband of Mary
Whooo wait a minuet!!!!!
Is that not blasphemy?
Will leave that to another post but if we unite with anyone (despite what they believe) who has had the “Holy Spirit experience and speak in other languages then we really are on doggy ground.
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January 24, 2017 at 7:36 am
Martin:
The art of interpretation would come from someone other than the person praying in an unknown language not understood by the parishioners, so the prayer would be to enquire if there is another person in the congregation who would interpret the language the speaker is praying for the congregation while the speaker is speaking in the same way when an interpreter speaks the English variation of a Russian speaking in Russian, for example. This requires two people and I think is not referring to the speaker as the interpreter.
As to your “blasphemy” query, blasphemy is quite like sin itself; in fact blasphemy is merely another expression of sin such as adultery. Like beauty, these descriptors are in the eye of the beholder. What you believe is sin and that “sin” although perceived by you as sin is not necessarily perceived in the same way by someone else. This is the selfish way of trying to project the idea of sin, beauty, art, blasphemy etc, onto others from a self perspective but in reality it cannot work that way for everybody because everybody has their own way of understanding according to their circumstances, teachings, culture, bundle of experiences and tradition. Generational changes occur over a long period of time but eventually old habits slowly turn around, dilute enough, die or diminish enough to spawn the next generation of laws and the new gods of the thousandth generation become the fashion fad of the day. Witness pre-mythology, mythology and post-mythology which were the precursors of pre-Abrahamic, Abrahamic and now we are into the post-Abrahamic era. Like it or not religious influence is waning and though it has taken 2000 years
As to your “blasphemy” comment about the Holy Spirit being the husband of Mary, understand that the same Spirit that drives language learning is the same Spirit that drives a man to leave his home and cling unto his wife. This does not mean that the Spirit is the wife or the husband but the Will from whom we take direction consciously, subconsciously and unconsciously. Liken it to the immune system.
The is one thing in common with Mary, her cousin Elizabeth and Joseph (Mary’s husband) an angel representing the spirit of God, in the case of Joseph it is said that the angel came to him in a dream(metaphorically, in the middle of the night imploring Joseph not to “put Mary away” in dishonor) in the case of Elizabeth this (same angel in my understanding) is named but I believe all three have been affected by the same person(called angel) but who’s name in scripture is Gabriel. Gabriel is the common denominator and this is as close as we can come to who the father of John the Baptist and Jesus is and who also persuaded Joseph in the middle of the night to continue to marry Mary as arranged.
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January 24, 2017 at 8:33 am
It seems a bit odd to me as well, and I’m trying to understand it better, but it seems that the ability to speak more than one language fluently was somehow regarded by some (at least in that neck of the woods, during that time period) as being something very mysterious and odd. Also too with translating from language to language – seems it was regarded as some special gift (I have no idea if that has anything to do with education such as it was back then or what). I don’t know if people in general just weren’t all that bilingual or multilingual back then. I mean if you were a merchant, you certainly would have known some Greek no matter what your native language was, but perhaps it was knowing just enough to get you by to conduct your business; you didn’t exactly “immerse yourself in the culture” of the places you visited; you did your business and left. If you were a learned individual, perhaps you spoke several languages, but it seems that such people were held in some sort of special regard. I’m kind of rambling here, but perhaps someone can shed some light on that?? Why was the ability to speak and translate more than one language seen as something “special’? Or, was it more to do with the fact that you could worship in more than one language and it not being a language that adhered to the rules of ecclesiastical diglossia??
I think in Cor 14:13 Paul is just saying that if you are going to pray aloud in your language, learn enough (in this case) Greek to be able to translate/interpret what you’re saying so all may benefit.
Yes, the speaker knows what he’s saying, but no one else may – thus the speaker should be able to interpret/translate it into the vernacular or have someone else do it for him (and if neither, not say anything aloud at all).
In the passage you refer to, I think it’s a matter of the Gentiles also hearing the message and being able to discuss it, etc. in their native languages (most likely simply Greek) – if they were not Jewish, they would not have understood Hebrew (which is what would ecclesiastical diglossia would have required) – Peter spoke to the Gentiles in Greek and they were able to receive the “message” and discuss it among themselves in their own language.
It kind of begs the question, now that I think about it, of whether or not the apostles knew that in order to spread the message of Christ any further than their own locale, it would have to be done in various local languages and not Hebrew, i.e. ecclesiastical diglossia (the tradition of ‘Hebrew only’) would need to be dispensed with – a divergence on that scale would have been huge.
Yes, glossolalia/tongues has never been, it seems, a real language – Despite this fact however, Pentecostal and Charismatic communities are rife with reported examples. Unfortunately, none are backed by any substantial proof; it amounts to essentially hearsay whereby virtually nothing is known of the speaker, his/her background, possible exposure to the purported languages, or the linguistic background of many the ‘hearers’. Are they hearing actual language or something that just “sounds” like ‘language X’?
These ‘tongues languages’ are neither modern nor ancient ones – there are quite a large number of languages in the world, but, as many linguists (including myself) point out – we have heard representative languages in virtually every group of related languages in the world. If ‘tongues’ were in a known language, one of us would either recognize the language or at least recognize that it is similar to some language we are acquainted with (we could at the very least identify what language family it belonged to).
Your example is correct – in addition, I’m pretty sure that were I to stand up and start reciting a passage from say, the Welsh ‘Mabinogion’ (stories in Middle Welsh – most pre-Christian in origin), I’m pretty sure someone would stand up and offer an “interpretation”. I’ve heard people from the South (US) quip upon hearing Beowulf recited aloud that if someone were to do that where they’re from, “people would say you were speaking in tongues!”.
I think the last section of your post is to be interpreted as being symbolic. Some Catholic priests wear what appears to be a wedding band . It is symbolic of their commitment to the Church (indeed some will say they are the bridegroom of the church). Catholic nuns wear a wedding band as well as they are called the “spouse/bride of Christ” – it’s not intended to be taken literal; purely symbolical of their respective commitments to the church and their Holy Orders.
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January 24, 2017 at 9:31 am
Kaki:
I have a question for you and would like to read your understanding of Genesis 11 specifically regarding language verses one through nine.
While the tongues in Acts refers to tongues as the pouring out of the Spirit; Genesis is about confusing language.
The Story of the Tower is one of the most cryptic in the OT – short on words, long on mysteries, replete with innuendo.
Why do you think this story is rendered this way, to explain widespread difference in language?
“At one time, the whole Earth spoke the same language. It so happened that as they moved out of the east, they came upon a plain in the land of Shinar and settled down.
They said to one another, “Come, let’s make bricks and fire them well.” They used brick for stone and tar for mortar.
Then they said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city and a tower that reaches Heaven. Let’s make ourselves famous so we won’t be scattered here and there across the Earth.”
God came down to look over the city and the tower those people had built.
God took one look and said, “One people, one language; why, this is only a first step. No telling what they’ll come up with next—they’ll stop at nothing! Come, we’ll go down and garble their speech so they won’t understand each other.” Then God scattered them from there all over the world. And they had to quit building the city. That’s how it came to be called Babel, because there God turned their language into “babble.” From there God scattered them all over the world……………”
I have commented about this in Post 112 about two years ago. What do you think about the power of Babel?
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January 24, 2017 at 9:32 am
The Tower of Babel?
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January 24, 2017 at 9:43 am
Cryptic – a cryptic message. … “hidden, occult, mystical,” from Late Latin crypticus, from Greek kryptikos “fit for concealing,” from kryptos “hidden”……
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January 24, 2017 at 10:13 am
To Kavik
Re Post 305
Thanks for your comments. It certainly an interesting take on this subject.
Never heard it put that way in the UK
Problem is now that so many are certain they are speaking in other languages as the Holy Spirit gives the words its going to be difficult for them to admit it that perhaps they are not.
If modern day speaking in tongues is no known language then what are they saying? To me it really must be just words made up as I showed how easy it is in Post 303.
Its all very perplexing as I know so many really genuine Christians who really think they are speaking in other languages but its obvious if you listen to them they are not.
Can all these millions of Charasmatic speaking in tongues Christians be wrong?
Could be!!!!
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January 24, 2017 at 10:21 am
To Kavik
Just listened to Beowulf being read on youtube.
Yes if I learnt this for Sunday and spoke it out Im sure there would be an interpretation!
It really sound like a language though. Not like this “Shaka baba” stuff
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January 24, 2017 at 12:44 pm
@ Martyn –
They are non-cognitive non-language utterances – random free vocalization. They fail as language or even communication under just about every criteria they can be tested under.
Yeah – that’s the thing and one of my points. Even with something like Beowulf (some YouTube versions are better than others), it can be immediately recognized as ‘language’ – with glossolalia/tongues, no so much.
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January 24, 2017 at 12:50 pm
@ Sonofman –
*A Linguistic View of the Babel Narrative*
The Tower of Babel story is quite interesting from a linguistic viewpoint; however, a few things must be defined in order to begin any type of linguistic analysis.
First, one must put into context the concept of what would have been considered “the whole world” to the original redactor(s) of the Babel narrative. The answer to this is rather simple and straightforward: to a person or people living in what we know call the Middle East several thousand years ago, the “whole world” would have been just that; a small part of what we now call the Middle East. There would not have been the concept of the world existing beyond the lands these people were already familiar with and inhabited. It’s quite possible they had no idea, for example, that lands beyond the Mediterranean Sea even existed.
In taking the narrative in historical context therefore, the “whole world” was not as we understand it today, but must be understood to mean a very small part of the modern Middle East.
What about what language or languages would have been spoken in that area? Was there, or could there have indeed been a common language spoken by “all mankind” (again, with the understanding that “all mankind” in this context refers to that small portion of the current Middle East discussed above)?
The answer is, well, yes – and no.
Linguists recognize that almost all languages of what are today the Middle East and parts of North Africa derive from one parent tongue: Proto Afro-Asiatic. This proto-language, due to several factors including the migration and isolation of people from each other, split off into several dialects, one of which was what is called Proto-Semitic; the parent tongue of all Semitic languages. The general consensus seems to be that Proto-Semitic had its ultimate origins in Arabia, Mesopotamia or perhaps even Africa and spread *westward*.
Proto-Semitic subsequently splintered off and developed into the various Semitic languages found in the ancient Middle East. This again was due to several factors including the migration of peoples to other areas and the general isolation of these peoples from one another over time. It should be noted that in ancient times, there were many Semitic languages. Only a few of these have survived into modern times.
In turning back to the Babel narrative, and taking into context the concept of “the whole world” as discussed above; it is safe to conclude that the common language referred to as “spoken by all mankind” was indeed in all likelihood Proto-Semitic.
What is fascinating is the fact that even back in those times it was recognized that there must have been at one time some parent language, some “common tongue” for the various languages people encountered in their “world”. The (somewhat) mutual intelligibility between these languages, or at the very least the similarity in vocabulary, surely must have been recognized.
As just one example, the word for ‘god’ is essentially the same word in Hebrew “el” as it is in Arabic “allah” as it is in Assyrian and Babylonian (a/k/a Akkadian) “ilu”, Phoenician ‘l, and Ugaritic ‘il. Surely people even back then would have recognized the similarity and further realized they all must have come from the same source language, some ‘parent tongue’ (in this case, the Proto Semitic *’il).
This concept seems to have been preserved in the oral tradition of the Habiru/Hebrew people in their oral tradition via the Babel narrative.
To these people however, the reasons for the various related languages they encountered would not have been known. They would have no concept of the ‘hows and whys’ of the splintering off of Proto-Semitic; they just knew there was obviously one parent language at one time, and now there were several distinct (but related) languages.
How did they account for this “confounding” of languages?
As with many things not clearly understood by ancient man, the reasons were usually attributed to a deity, an “act of God”, if you will.
Such must have been the case here as well. The confounding of languages was simply attributed to an act of God.
This does however beg the question of why would God have done such a thing?
I would argue that the narrative of the Tower is pure allegory/metaphor – the intentional creation of a “back story”, if you will, to explain the reason for the current situation and to have a vehicle by which to attribute the event as an “act of God”. Simply put, it was a story that was easy to understand. To ancient man, this split in languages was an instantaneous thing and possibly viewed as something quite miraculous and mysterious (and as a result of ‘something bad’ that mankind did) – there was no concept of languages changing and diverging very slowly over long periods of time.
In fact, it is important to note that, while the Babel account does indicate a common original language, it does not claim that said language was Hebrew (as many people think) or that God necessarily used a supernatural process in confounding the languages. Further, what many people don’t realize is that the account doesn’t even claim that this diversification of languages was an immediate event (though most people interpret it as such).
The Babel narrative is also interesting in that it relates that these original speakers came from the East. This is generally regarded as the “migration route” of Proto-Semitic, i.e. the original Sprachgebiet (language area) was to the east of what is now Israel and the surrounding countries and moved westward.
The Babel narrative as we have it today is also really quite fascinating in that it is one of very few ancient accounts of a people remembering the history of their language(s) – told of course in a religious context.
If, however, the religious context is extracted, the result is a fairly accurate historical account of what happened – speakers of Proto Semitic migrated towards the west and as they migrated and became isolated nations, groups, etc., their languages eventually splintered off into what would have been at first just dialects of P-Semitic, but over time, separate but a very closely related group of languages (a “confounding” of languages).
If one wishes to include the religious context, the notion commonly assumed is that *God used the confounding of languages to scatter the people*, however, it may be argued, as Dallin Oaks states in his article “The Tower of Babel: A Linguistic Consideration”, that *God scattered the people to cause a confusion of languages*. An interesting take on the narrative as it fits more closely with what actually happened historically.
Thus too, ‘tongues’ is by no means, as some suggest, “a reversal of Babel”.
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January 24, 2017 at 10:04 pm
Kaki:
Obviously there are no accounts that make any sense of the narrative and so we are only left with imagination.
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January 25, 2017 at 5:01 am
Perhaps no accounts that make 100% sense of the tower (though if such a thing was built, most scholars suggest it would have most likely been a ziggurat), but the account of the languages does actually make sense, and I think is a remarkable account, when put into historical context of what we know happened with P-Semitic (without the religious overtones of course).
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January 27, 2017 at 2:22 am
When I am praying in my native language,I eventually start praying in tongues. I don’t even know what am saying and the prayer gets so long. Am getting scared and need guidance because I speak in tongues too when am just meditating. I want to understand the meaning of what am praying
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February 1, 2017 at 11:29 am
I’m quite sure 99% of the “tongues” I’ve heard have been fake (although I believe that many of the people that are doing it are deceived, & thinking it’s real). The other 1%, 0.5% of that was real, & the other 0.5% was demonic. I had one man try to get me to just say whatever comes into my mind. I told him straight out that’s not how it works, but he was pushy. So I start gibber jabbering & he says, “There! You’re speaking in tongues!” to which I respond, “No, I’m not. I’m making words up as a I go.” With tongues comes this spiritual pride. It goes back to the beginning of Christianity, as it was going on in the very carnal Corinthian church. I’ve read whole books written by Pentecostals on the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” & I’ve found Scriptures taken completely out of context in them. I prayed for a few years to understand it all to no avail. I’m convinced it is not for all, & that it’s a gift, period. Not an “evidence of a baptism of the Holy Spirit.” The evidence of a super duper amount of Christ in someone, or rather how much of their lives they’ve surrendered, is in the fruit they produce, not the tongues they speak in. Will all speak in tongues, Paul asks us? But it wasn’t a question that didn’t have an answer. His inference was clear: No, not all will speak in tongues, but seek LOVE.
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February 2, 2017 at 5:02 am
I think you’ve kind of hit the nail on the head – particularly about passages being taken out of context; seems to be a lot of “cherry picking” of passages to justify tongues and/or speak to their supposed veracity.
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February 11, 2017 at 4:03 pm
Totally agree with your analysis! I have done the same thing, thinking of something else while praying in the Spirit. I have been questioning other peoples “gifts” of tongues because it sounds many times like they are literally saying the same three words. But, I also think of I Corinthians 1:25, “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” So, who are we to say what the Holy Spirit should be uttering. However, we should use discernment to determine whether another believer is walking in the Spirit or not and using the true gift of tongues.
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February 11, 2017 at 4:22 pm
Robert:
I have one question regarding your comment and that is
what do you suppose the …..”true gift of tongues…..” is?
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June 15, 2017 at 4:59 pm
You cite Acts 2:4 as proof that speaking in tongues, or speaking a heavenly language unknown on earth, originates with God, not man:
“[W]e learn from Scripture that it is the Spirit who enables us to speak in a new, and unlearned language (Acts 2:4). The words we speak have their origin with God, not man. We do not invent the language, and thus we do not invent the “sounds” that we speak.”
However, you are taking Acts 2:4 completely out of context.
During the Pentecost, the faithful suddenly spoke languages unknown to them… but not unknown to the world.
Quite the contrary!
The miracle was their sudden ability to communicate with all the foreigners gathered together for Pentecost, and to communicate with them in their own languages. Suddenly and remarkably, the barriers of communication between the races were broken.
Acts 2:4, says nothing about speaking in the heavenly tongues of God and the angels, completely unknown to man on earth.
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
Acts 2 New International Version (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV
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October 6, 2017 at 11:56 pm
This is just what I was looking for! As I started to come out of my sleep one morning around 8am, I was startled to find that I was praying in tongues! I had no idea of what I was praying in it sounded like a medium length sentance of about 6 or 7 words possibly in Hebrew. I had been repeating this same sentence over and over, identically for maybe two or three minuts or better. I laid there in amazement at what was happening. I thought to myself, yea! God has answered my prayers to receive my heavenly prayer language! In my minds voice I was asking myself over and over again, “what are you saying”? Instead of my mind just standing on the sideline doing nothing, it was listening to what my mouth was speaking and continually asking, ” what are you saying”? My prayer language seemed to have control over my mouth and side stepping my mind. It was the most incredible and closest encounter with our Lord I have ever experienced!! However, this prayer language has never come back and I refuse to repeat it the best I can remember from my memory and call it my new praye language! My spirit feels grieved when I try doing that. It feels like I would be praying on demand. What was God trying to show me by giving me that one time gift of speaking in my prayer language? I would love to pray in my heavenly prayer language all the time but it would be coming from my head and not my spirit. Faked, in other words! I need some encouragement and insight here on what to do next if anything at all.
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October 7, 2017 at 7:13 am
Kevin Walsh:
S- what did you actually say that you understand?
1 Corinthians 14: 9-11
As it is written: “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.”
In other words if you speak in tongues but cannot interpret what you are speaking, your speaking is useless.
Sorry but those are the rules.
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October 8, 2017 at 5:20 pm
Good Eve! So 1 day I I was in a lot of pain from my sinuses! I started saying Jesus heal me over & over!!~Then came tese words outta my mouth~Don’t know if I’ll spell it right?~But it was Alabasha~I couldn’t understand why I was saying this? But according to what I just read its not tongues, cause I kept saying it over & over? Please help me!
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October 9, 2017 at 7:17 am
You state that scripture teaches us that tongues are genuine languages. They are not meaningless sounds or ecstatic gibberish. Then what do you do with this verse? 1 Corinthians 14:2, “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, (no one understands him); he utters mysteries with his spirit.” Tongues is an intimate and direct line of communication with God.
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October 19, 2017 at 12:49 am
There is this woman at my church that is constantly “speaking in tongues” with the repetitive sounds and then she is interpreting it herself.This goes against scripture 1 Corinthians 14: 27-28 . Paul states if there is not interpreter to keep quiet. I’ve even heard her go back and correct her own interpretation. I used to think she was genuine but now I think it is from her own words and maybe for attention, How do you go about confronting a christian when they truly believe they are giving a message from God?? God is not the author of confusion so why would she have to correct her interpretation?
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October 19, 2017 at 7:57 am
Angela:
“How do you go about confronting a christian when they truly believe they are giving a message from God?”
Do you really think that the woman of whom you speak believes she is giving a message from God? She may claim that but you have to remember that everybody speaks in tongues. Speaking in tongues simply means you speak in the language of your childhood usually called your mother tongue.
Some people are exposed to several languages during childhood and grow up being able to speak in several tongues.
Speaking in “repetitive rabble” is not speaking in tongues; speaking in tongues is speaking in a language not familiar to others in the congregation. Now if you have someone speaking in french and another member who is fluent in french and in english, then that person can interpret the french prayer and can interpret to the rest of the congregation; that’s all.
Remember the story?:
They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?
Parthians, Medes, and Elamites;
Visitors from Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene;
Immigrants from Rome, both Jews and proselytes;
Even Cretans and Arabs!
“They’re speaking our languages, describing God’s mighty works!”
None of the speaking was in “repetitive babble”.
Anyone speaking in “repetitive babble” is a charlatan….end of story.
There are countless charlatans taking advantage of believers selling miracle water in ketchup packages, healing paid actors on stage and devising ways to confound believers just as the ancients confounded believers of little education and common sense slim to none when the magicians performed sleight of hand tricks to demonstrate the power of the supernatural god of the day choice.
It is time believers open their minds to reality and common sense; yet, they leave themselves wide open to deceitful tactics because they have a desire to believe. Some take advantage trying to gain attention; yes, but more often than not they are trying to access your money through charlatan entertainment!
Ever watch a magic show? Go on YouTube; there are lots of videos that demonstrate the entertainment; check out Magic on America’s Got Talent.
Ever hear of Chris Mind Freak? David Copperfield, Siegfried and Roy, Penn & Teller, Harry Houdini.
There are countless street magicians and countless Church Magicians ever since Moses and Aaron turned their staff into a snake in Pharaoh’s court, after which Pharaoh’s court magicians did the same trick and caused Moses to lose credibility.
Exodus 7:
9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Work a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.'” 10 So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded (not that the Lord actually commanded but a priest or prophet acting and talking babble in whom the masses were taught to believe in); and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.…
Don’t be blind to your own common sense. And what did Jesus say about such people?
“…….if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…”
Be skeptical; skepticism shows a healthy mind and a discerning spirit and that’s a good thing.
Don’t be hoodwinked by priests, pastors, pretenders, preachers and popes.
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November 25, 2017 at 8:29 am
Gordon Myers:
“You state that scripture teaches us that tongues are genuine languages. They are not meaningless sounds or ecstatic gibberish. Then what do you do with this verse? 1 Corinthians 14:2, “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, (no one understands him); he utters mysteries with his spirit.” Tongues is an intimate and direct line of communication with God.”
If I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything *but* English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a bloody word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one *there* will understand my “tongue”. That does *not *mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service. So it ends up being a “real language no one understands” (within that given context). To the people listening to me, I am speaking ‘mysteries” in the Spirit (i.e. I’m praying earnestly from my heart and from deep within my being = praying ‘in the spirit’). Thus too, I’m praying only to God as he’s the only one who understands what I’m saying.
Real language, not non-cognitive non-language utterances.
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November 25, 2017 at 8:35 am
As stated was further up in this thread – even though you had Jews from all over the place (“the idiom used is ‘from all nations under heaven’), if we look at the list offered, we see a few things: all the lands mentioned are lands of the Jewish Diaspora – both Eastern and Western. Diasporan Jews spoke one of two languages; if they were from the Western Diaspora, it was Greek, Eastern Diaspora, Aramaic. Apostles spoke both. What the people were expecting to hear was Hebrew; the religiously and socially correct language to use in this situation; instead, people heard their native languages of Aramaic and Greek. The list in Acts does not represent linguistic diversity; it was put there for very political reasons. The lands are listed in a very specific order and you’ll notice Cyprus and Syria are missing from it – not by accident.
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November 25, 2017 at 9:59 am
Paul was not all that bright either.
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December 18, 2017 at 5:06 pm
People with small brains and small faith
Who are you to judge what is the true speaking in tounges and what is not? If I tell you that God resurrected Lazarus from the dead you believe but if a tounge sounds too silly for you to comprehend then all the sudden its not from God.
Why is it a problem that ha-sha-ta means I love you Jesus and then next week ha sha ta means something different like you getter repent
God can resurrect from the dead make a prophet be swallowed by a huge fish gut he didn’t die he can move mountains but if sha take LA means something different today and tomorrow then it’s not from his anymore.
I advise you to check your own faith and your heart before it’s too late. Thanks.
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December 19, 2017 at 5:34 am
It’s not a question of sounding ‘silly’ – tongues are simply non-cognitive non-language utterance. They just aren’t language no matter how you slice and dice it. Your next sentence demonstrates that perfectly: with real language, “a big brown dog” can never be “a small white cat”. As someone said, “Pentecostal Darwinism does not exist“ – you can’t completely change the meaning to compensate for an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case (multiple meanings for the same glossic string), it would negate the need for tongues in the first place.
The above said, I do believe that modern tongues are a tool by which the practitioner can establish a closer relation with the Deity and strengthen their spiritual path – absolutely nothing wrong with that, but again, modern tongues are simply a self-created tool – nothing more.
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December 19, 2017 at 9:15 am
Moshe Tzur:
People with small brains have BIG FAITH; People with BIG brains have BIG reasoning, BIG logic and BIG knowledge and small faith.
Here is your problem, apart from what Kavik rightly stated pointed out about “a big brown dog” does not equal “a small white cat”:
You see, Moshe, what you lack in knowledge you top up in “make believe”.
Lazarus was not raised from the dead because Lazarus wasn’t dead; he was in the place of the dead and was raised from the place of the dead because he had a peculiar disease and nobody knew about that peculiar disease except Jesus so when that disease presented itself everybody thought Lazarus was dead because when this disease presents there is slim to none life signs and so they placed him in the tomb, the place of the dead. The link below will show you what modern people do when such an event presents itself today, as well. It’s a documentary called “I woke up in a morgue” in another lifetime it could have just as easily been entitled: “I woke up in the tomb”.
As far as a big fish swallowing Jonah; Jonah found himself in the depths of the ocean with reeds swirling around his head; man overboard during an ocean storm is another metaphor for the place of the dead, Sheol, when suddenly a wave crashed Jonah up on land which might have been a beach, not a huge fish vomited him out of its belly. If you re-read the story it describes being thrown about by the tumultuous waves of water..remember there was a huge storm at the time when the sailors threw Jonah into the into the rough sea.
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March 19, 2018 at 10:07 am
when the disciples received the gift of the holy spirit , all the Jews from different nations heard the apostles speaking in their own language and they were amazed. MORAL toungues are real languages not something no one can understand go and read the bible
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March 19, 2018 at 2:33 pm
How to tell between authentic tongues and fake tongues is one of the easiest of answers.
There no authentic tongues; it’s all made up stuff by superstitious supernaturalists.
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March 19, 2018 at 10:57 pm
I agree.
The whole idea of speaking tongues is other people speaking in their own other language and in a midst of various languages, speakers took turns in speaking in their own languages and people were. Speaking in some unknown language that nobody can understand is so ridiculous as to render believers full of nonsense instead of full of common sense.
The fact that you have other christians egging you on means nothing more than fake news supporting fake news.
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March 20, 2018 at 6:27 am
If the history of modern tongues is examined, one point becomes very clear: at some point between 1906 and 1907, Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders were compelled to examine more carefully the narrative of Scripture for references to help understand/explain/clarify what it was that they were doing with respect to “tongues” since their original supposition, xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t it.
This forced a serious theological dilemma — as it quickly became obvious that miraculous language acquisition (xenoglossy) wasn’t what was happening, either the Pentecostal movement as a whole would have to admit they were wrong, or the modern experience needed to be redefined. It seems the later was chosen.
The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues.
Call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians. A re-interpretation of select texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” was perceived to be.
There are a lot of good examples of this re-definition – the word “tongues” is one:
The word “tongue(s)” itself is simply a more archaic word for (real) “language(s)”, nothing more. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these passages and the whole modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” begins to become difficult to posit – “language(s)” sounds a lot less mysterious and in many cases, adds more clarity to the text.
Again, in Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the word has come to be equated with the modern concept of “tongues-speech”.
A reading into the text of something that just isn’t there and was never there to begin with.
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March 20, 2018 at 9:52 am
Kaki:
I agree with your concise commentary.
Believers need to come out of their crave requiring other like minded people to support their belief and open their mind’s eye to reality.
The world is full of David Copperfields and the Ancients in their zeal to promote their gods of choice by deception and magic, were no different.
Even the bible account of Moses telling Aaron to throw down his staff that turned into a snake and back into a staff again was a mere magic trick but called by the Lord , “a miracle”. Exodus 9:9-11. And then Pharaoh called his magicians and they too did the same Miraculous trick.
Now let me please remind you that it was not the Lord that commanded Moses here, but a holy man, a prophet so to speak, who claimed to speak on behalf of the Lord (their god of choice) The so called “Lord”, “God” never spoke to anybody regardless of how the writers framed conversations; it was always a wise man, holy man, prophet, whatever they called him, speaking on behalf of an invisible entity which was merely a traditional choice God variation of the Hebrews that was different than the invisible Gods of choice of people outside the Jewish Nation; in essence, a distinction without a difference.
To use an modern analogy, this would be no different than Sports audiences with each State rooting for its team to win; religious Gods were nothing more than abstract bandwagons that met the needs, traditions and culture of different patches of humanity who jumped on them.
It is no small wonder why people cannot accept that authors of any ilk embellish, magnify and skew their perspective on any topic, not the least of which is the choice of Gods they conceive, conjure up and then zealously promote their beliefs. Bible writers were authors no different than the cave man who drew a heart on the wall for his one and only love, and that one and only love for one single person and possibly one or two competitor suitors.
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June 5, 2018 at 1:11 am
I am asking the Holy Spirit to show me if I’m speaking in tongues is genuine or is in my mind, but sometime I’m not even praying or at home I just burst into tongue, I hope its really the Holy spirit that praying in me.
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June 5, 2018 at 9:36 am
Irene Gloria:
Next time you speak in tongues make a recording, don’t worry about the video. you can aim the camera at the cover of your bible or any convenient item, and the camera will record your speech.
Then post the video to Youtube and send the link of the Youtube video/audio file to Theosophical so everyone can listen and comment.
Personally I believe that your speech has to be in a language that somebody can understand, as the bible clearly says that the tongues of the disciples were understood in the languages of the listeners so tongues is a language, in the biblical sense, just a language that is not familiar to you; it is not gibberish and made up sounds like “ali baba, shabob shabob cum aluca” nonsense,; if it is gibberish you are delusional and quite possibly on the verge of a nervous breakdown and maybe need to see a doctor.
The first type of tongues is called xenoglossia (xenos = foreign, glossa = tongue), a phrase coined by Charles Richet (1850-1935), a leading investigator of the paranormal from the 1870s to the 1930s (who also won the Nobel Prize for Physiology (1913) for his work on allergic responses). Xenoglossia is the use of an actual foreign language by a person who has had no conscious knowledge of that language.
The second category is commonly labelled glossolalia (glossa = tongue, lalia = speaking) and is what many other people have experienced.
On the other hand the brain is a fantastic organ and memory is is equally fascinating which is why our dreams are so vivid. The memory retains everything it encounters during one’s life even when you hear somebody speaking in a foreign language you don’t understand.
The brain/memory can replay those particular moments in time suddenly and without any obvious explanation which is why we generally cannot understand why dreams are so often disjointed and run in seemingly unrelated segments that don’t make sense to us.
The practice of speaking in tongues in Christianity goes back all the way to the beginning of this religion (see “glossolalia and the supernatural” below). Several studies of religious glossolalia have shown that those who speak in tongues are deeply touched by the experience. Goodman (1972) reports a “before and after” phase in the lives of the tongue-speakers, with a clear, decisive “change” in-between. Kildahl (1975) notes that Christian glossolalics reported positive, and negative consequences, following their exercise of tongue-speaking (for example, an increase in personal happiness, a sense of greater personal power, a joyful and warm personal fellowship among tongue-speakers, dependency on the leader who introduced the person to tongue-speaking and divisiveness that polarizes the religious community).
Tongues is not confined to Christianity, however. In all ages, and all parts of the world, people have spoken in apparently unintelligible fashion (Eliade 1987). May (1956) describes the prevalence of tongue-speaking amongst the Hindus in India. The physical manifestations appear to be analogous to what happens in a Christian context, though the belief system connected with the experience is quite different.
Anthropologist G J Jennings (1968) carried out an ethnological study of glossolalia and observed this behaviour amongst: Tibetan monks, certain North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the Aborigines of Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Chaco Indians of South America, shamans in the Sudan, Siberia and Greenland, and in various cults (Voodoo in Haiti, Zor in Ethiopia, Shango on the west coast of Africa, and the Shago in Trinidad).
Speaking in tongues has been studied and arranged in several categories: Anomalous event or normal behaviour?
How is glossolalia to be defined?
Who speaks in tongues?
What about xenoglossia?
Glossolalia and the supernatural.
Paranormal glossolalia.
Glossolalia as psychological abnormality.
Abnormal mental states.
Is glossolalia an abnormal language phenomenon?
Glossolalia as normal behaviour.
Apart from the various mental disorders, It appears that tongues behaviour is also determined by the social expectations of their community and that this behaviour is learned. Glossolalics behave the way they do, because it is acceptable and even expected, within their cultural context.
Conclusion
Glossolalia is perhaps best understood as a vocal behaviour that can be acquired by almost anyone who possesses the necessary motivation and who is exposed regularly to social environments that encourage such utterances. In our culture, the social groups that encourage glossolalia are almost invariably religious. Therefore, the motivations for engaging in it can usually be best understood in terms of the shared meaning ascribed to this behaviour by the religious groups that practice it.
One can read more fully the categories at this site:
http://www.psychohistorian.org/display_article.php?id=200508010351_speaking_in_tongues.content
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October 21, 2018 at 9:00 am
Omg, yes! When I speak in tongues I really am able to think about other stuff. Like the other day my tongues started to get real intense and loud like a “machine gun” and all the while I was thinking “woah, what on earth is going on here” cause my prayer was more intense than usual (this was 2 days leading up to a prophetic intercession seminar I just attended). Deduced that it was a spiritual warfare prayer.
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October 31, 2018 at 5:43 pm
Why would anyone want to fake this? Is there bullying in the church if you don’t ‘at least’ fake it? Are people ever taken aside and told ‘hey man I think your faking’? Are there people here who really want to burn members of their church for faking gifts. Creflo $ fakes his tongues..its so flippin obvious and entertaining..he’s such a greedy goober.
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October 31, 2018 at 8:02 pm
a.fro:
Your first question is answered by your last sentence but apart from money there is such a thing called ego, power, attention, something special, accolades and the centre of attention,
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January 12, 2019 at 2:45 pm
Your opening statement is wrong. When we first start to learn tongues often the Holy Spirit gives us only a word or a phrase to repeat, it’s like learning a new language, you start small and develop a fluency.
On a seperate note:
Sometimes the tongues you speak can be in an actual language but tongues that come from the holy spirit are the indicipherable language spoken between the Spirit in you and God if the tongue was already a language why would Paul say it is an unknown tongue?
“He that Speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself” (1 Cor 14:4)
Tongues are meant to build you up, Paul says to keep them between you and God unless there is someone who can interpret.
“If anyone speaketh in an unknown tongue let i be by two, or at most three and that by course; and let one interpret.But if there be no interpreter let let him keap silence in the Church and let him speak to himself and to God”(1 Cor 14: 27-28).
If the tongue were a language why would interpretation be from God? Surely google translate would work just as well. From the Holy Spirit always comes the ability to pray in tongues (praying in tongues being part of the baptism in the Holy Spirit) and from God comes the interpretation
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January 12, 2019 at 2:56 pm
Donovannoble:
How to tell the difference between Fake tongues and Authentic tongues?
The answer, in all its sheer simplicity is: there is no such thing as authentic all “biblical” tongues are fake!
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May 11, 2019 at 10:56 pm
walaupun banyak yang nulis konten seperti ini, tapi saya lebih suka konten yang di tulis di blog ini.
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May 13, 2019 at 7:43 am
Thanks , I’ve recently been looking for information approximately this subject for ages and yours is the best I’ve came upon so far. However, what in regards to the bottom line? Are you positive concerning the source?
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May 14, 2019 at 8:09 am
“Your opening statement is wrong. When we first start to learn tongues often the Holy Spirit gives us only a word or a phrase to repeat, it’s like learning a new language, you start small and develop a fluency.
On a seperate note:
Sometimes the tongues you speak can be in an actual language but tongues that come from the holy spirit are the indicipherable language spoken between the Spirit in you and God if the tongue was already a language why would Paul say it is an unknown tongue?
“He that Speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself” (1 Cor 14:4)
Tongues are meant to build you up, Paul says to keep them between you and God unless there is someone who can interpret.”
One can start learning glossolalia a little at a time; it’s learning not to be afraid of playing with language, or the sounds of language. As a ‘speaker’ gets more comfortable, the more it flows.
There are no documented cases of ‘tongues’ coming out as real rational language. All such reports are anecdotal at best.
Modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterance. Entirely a self-created phenomenon.
The word “unknown” is a 17th century addition – it does not occur in the original. Replace the more archaic ‘tongue(s)’ with ‘language(s)’, get rid of the added ‘unknown’, and these phrases begin to become more difficult to posit as anything but real, rational languages.
If a person is speaking in his/her native language and no one else there understands it, Paul says the speaker should try and find a translator – if none can be found, better to keep quiet and pray silently.
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July 27, 2019 at 6:46 am
How do you know any of this? Did the divine tell you? It’s sad that you’re leading people away from speaking in tongues.
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July 29, 2019 at 4:35 am
Thank you.
This has been of great help.
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August 26, 2019 at 6:04 pm
How to tell the difference: If somebody you know tries to speak in tongues; it is fake, make pretend babble… the end.
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October 18, 2019 at 8:50 pm
I appreciate the write up. I am confused because when I am praying, I see myself speaking in an unknown language. I doubt myself not because am not a child of God, but because at times I still get angry over issues. Sometimes I feel I hope am not posses by evil spirit. But at time when I try to stop it, I c that I can’t control my tongue. It is confusing. What will I do. I thought the Holy Spirit helps us to preach the gospel. Is it possible for one to have the Holy Spirit and still feel weak in prayers and reading the Bible. I love God but I feel my relationship with God has not gotten to the point where I will be baptised in the Holy Spirit. I really need help. Infact sometimes I find myself singing in an unknown tongue. Advice please
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July 12, 2020 at 4:47 pm
I had also the same experience yet I also doubted if it was the Holy Spirit or just me making it up. In that case, if prove myself faking it, do I commit a very big sin to God?
Our pastor told us that speaking in tongues happens when you started to speak. He said that you don’t wait for the Holy Spirit to move your tongue and speak rather it is you who should speak. And he said, “speak it”.
That’s what I do. And I felt bad for realizing I think I am just faking it since everyone is doing so.
Do I commit a very big sin? I have ask God for forgiveness already but I still feel troubled until now.
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July 13, 2020 at 11:15 pm
Carl, no, I don’t think you sinned by doing what your pastor said or by trying to speak in tongues. But I don’t think your pastor gave you good advice. The way people receive the gift of tongues is different for different people. Sometimes people are talking in their native language and it just changes into tongues. Sometimes words appear in their mind that they have to speak out, and then the tongues begin to flow. Don’t try to force anything. If God wants to give you the gift, then He will give it to you.
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July 28, 2020 at 12:44 am
Hi!
I have a very specific concern that I haven’t found any mention of and I’m not sure if I’m alone with this.
I have reconnected with my holy spirit. About 7 years ago I was heavy into scripture and when I got on my knees to pray…my words were turning into gibberish. I am again in scripture and when I pray different things are happening at the same time.
For example: I was alone in my apt. It was about 330pm in the afternoon, I set my phone down and started to pray….as I prayed everything I was thinking was coming out as gibberish (I was thinking fast, aware of my intentions), my tongue was involuntarily moving side to side. I began short of breath (feeling choked, my throat also stretching/flexing), I had a montage of images and I kept seeing white flashes (like screenshots). When I open my mouth to speak – my prayer sounds foreign. It’s almost as if I’m on fast forwarding, even when I slow down my spirit takes over, earnestly prays and moves faster than the speed of light.
I have had many prayers like this and I’m not sure why or if it is in fact speaking in tongues. I wonder if others have had this combination of experiences in one sitting.
What I do know is that I feel understood, I feel that in a few minutes I have uttered 1000 prayers and included others I mean to pray for. It feels like a massive explosive prayer, gives me a great sense of relief.
I had for many years struggled with my relationship with GOD due to the Church (I hadn’t found a place of worship that “fit”), I now cultivate my own relationship with GOD that isn’t confined to a church.
I’m just trying to be resourceful here and gain clarity.
Thank you in advance for any feedback.
Lovingly,
Mich.
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September 6, 2020 at 5:29 pm
One time I was called by Jesus to testify in tongues, I spoke another language entirely, then a translator translated what I had said in English, it was different than what I thought I had said. I was confused by this and the fact my then understanding at the time that if I was speaking tongues then the congregation would have heard it clearly in their own language thus eliminating the need for a translator. I asked my preacher who informed me the answer would only be clear after touching his Holy Dong. After some questionable minutes and much reassurance that I had done greatly and that God is going to answer me when He’s ready I did research and could find no biblical references to a Holy Dong. So I prayed…
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September 7, 2020 at 5:10 pm
Surely everyone can speak “gibberish” ? Anyone who can speak, can simply decide to utter strings of gibberish. Anyone can attempt to mimic a foreign language (trying to sound German, trying to sound Chinese, etc.) isn’t some special ability; if you can speak then you can do it.
It seems that the gift of speaking in tongues is essentially a person choosing to speak in gibberish, as they’ve always been able to do, but then deciding by an act of will or “faith” that they are going to believe that when they do so “this time” it is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is the spiritual gift of tongues.
How to speak in tongues? Speak in gibberish. Decide it is “tongues.” Don’t doubt that it is tongues, have faith. You retain the ability to speak gibberish. The only difference in how it operates is your will. If you believe it is tongues it is tongues, if you believe it is gibberish it is gibberish. God may provide an interpretation when you or someone else, are believing for an interpretation for an instance when you were deciding by faith to be speaking in tongues.
I would be curious if there are people who speak in gibberish with one method and speak in tongues by some other method and can articulate a clear difference in technique other than the simple decision that “this instance” is tongues and “this instance” is gibberish. I’ve hear people say things like “I can’t speak in gibberish” or “I was never able to speak in tongues until” but I don’t believe there is any person who can speak who cannot simply choose to utter nonsense syllables.
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September 18, 2020 at 7:59 pm
I assume everyone fakes it. No one can prove they experienced it. No one understands it. To me its useless without a supernatural phenomenon that clearly defies science and human foreknowledge. No vague interpretation. Otherwise it is useless. No different than the fake Jehovas Witness “burning in the bosom”. God wouldn’t waste our time if He wants to manifest Himself clearly. Ignore these and tell God to shut these babbles up and find yourself a group that teaches the entire Bible cover to cover.
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September 25, 2020 at 1:07 pm
When I was baptised in the the Holy Spirit it felt like flames of water flowing over me, I wasn’t aware of anything else or even that I had fallen down. Then I felt something rough on my mouth and came more ‘into the room’ and realised that someone was holding a microphone to my mouth while I was talking, saying things, speaking in tongues. I didn’t know about speaking in tongues til then and after that could stop and start it whenever I desired, which was only in church anyway. Other ladies, elderly, in church also spoke and there was always immediately an interpretation. That ‘speaking’ sounded really like something, not the ha shim shallah bim glossolalia that everyone speaks in churches nowadays. I actually left the church for some years because of events there, and haven’t spoken in tongues since even though I am very much back in the fold in these latter days. I am waiting for the Holy Spirit to open this to me again but place more importance on the Fruits. There is no way I will make it up, would rather say real words in English to the Lord in that case, than knowingly gibberish to Him. I see others seem to get something out of it though, so leave them to their own walk with the Lord to communicate how they prefer
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February 9, 2021 at 12:53 am
Thankyou for this article.
I must appologise as i read the first few comments but not all 358
When Jesus returns he is not looking to see what gifts you have or how big your ministry is BUT will judge us according to our Fruit, Faith & Obediance
This is why many can have gifts and not show fruit, live a carnal life. A gift is just something you give to someone, they dont need to earn it but can misuse it
I can see why some people think some of the gifts have ceased since the bible was written and the last impartation of someone recieving prophesy & tongues was in Acts 19. no one seem to then spk in tounges or prophesy after that.
However Paul says at that time that i wish you would all spk in tongues BUT covert the best more spiritual gifts. So we see in churches a massive push for believers to have an unknown tongue rather than prophesy or discerment.
We must seek the gifts which edify the body of Christ
It says tongues are not for believers but for unbelievers, Prophesy is for the believers not unbelievers
If there are no unbeleivers among youi pray in tongues quietly to yourself
So what is our motive for this speaking in tongues among all other gifts?
Feeling of Importance, praise of men, pride, peer pressure from other belivers? We need to look at the motive
This is why we see people faking speeking in tongues, slain in the spirit, prophesying says thus saith the Lord. A bible school someone went to told them to repeat ‘keys to my honda, keys to my handa’ and other phrases.
In the upper room in Acts the Spirit of the Lord just fell up on them they wasnt even looking to speak in tongues. The spirit gave them utterance.
In the modern era of churches where we see alot of Hypnotism and khunalini spirits operating. The leader/speaker is repeating to themselves phrase upon phrase in english as though it makes any difference to build themselves up or summon something up before praying for people
What if it is not Gods will you speak in tongues ever? what if he wants you to have another gift or the time is not yet? I think it is better to be open asking God to give whatever gift he wants you to have in His time and a gift that will edify the body
James says ‘you ask and you recieve not because you consume it among your own lusts’
Lets let God have his way in our lives and let us be useful to him and not to seek these gifts for fleshly desires.
Sorry for the long replay. God Bless
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April 11, 2021 at 9:56 pm
I would say this article is partly correct. Scriptures describe 3 forms of speaking in tongues. One is of another human worldly language, giving glory and edification to God. The other according to scriptures is a spiritual language only known by God. Scripture z zsays it is a mystery. No man’s language is such a mystery. Even the angles do not know the meaning and only ur spirt and God understand. The 3ed is prophetic in nature, not for just telling futures but also secret past or secrets present. This form is for making God’s power known to unbelievers. The last is shadowed by Jesus prophetic word to the woman at the well. She was not a believer nor holy, nor of Israel, but He told her her secret sins and she believed.
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May 10, 2021 at 8:39 am
I’ve only spoken in tongues twice. (I’m a newbie)
The first was a bit scarey and I walked away wondering if it was real. I had goose bumps and an amazing joy. The second time I prayed what seemed like a90 seconds and then prayed in English then in the spirit then English weeping. The thing is what I prayed in English was the best most intense praying ever. I myself don’t pray that good. I’m thinking I was interpreting my spirit language myself. I only pray in the Spirit alone. Do you think it’s authentic
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September 3, 2021 at 7:52 am
thanks for sharing!
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December 26, 2021 at 7:17 am
In our family we have experienced 3 deaths recently. The last a car crash that killed my stepdaughter to whom we were close. This affected out family badly. My grandson, who is 6, also new this lady’s daughter with whom he played with on a visit.
Recently, my youngest daughter, the mum of this little boy, lit a candle at her house in memory of her step sister. My grandson said to her completely out of the blue “The Souls We Lost Hold The Candles Power” . Also he started to speak in a language which he said was “an ancient language “. His little face changed as these words were uttered by him. He couldn’t tell us what he spoke. We think he was speaking in tongues. A very unusual experience
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December 29, 2021 at 7:56 pm
Thank you for the advice. Recently several months ago I’ve prayed to receive the gift of speaking in tongues (glossololia). Ever since then, speaking in tongues have become more audibly discernible apart from sounds of repetition. I’ve also remembered that there is a chance for someone who is beginning to receive the gift, that they might waver between the two. That happened to me. Finally I tried to speak in tongues again, and found it to be smooth and a nearly palpably transparent feeling to the mouth while speaking in tongues. It should feel graceful, not forced. I thought about how after I spoke in tongues (even before when I had doubt about the validity of it), that I felt weight be lifted from my soul each time!
There seems to be a variety of this. Some people are gifted with a stronger grace of speaking in tongues, which includes speaking in clear Latin and Greek! Everyone has different mouth frames, and I imagine that reflects the wide variety of styles of the gift of glossololia.
Consider that there may be many “components” of speaking of tongues. Similar to how there are many components to math, or geology. Consider what is spoken in-between the lines, and the amount of pressure you feel. Practicing alone is good. When you are with your friends, your true friends, give it a try while letting them know you have been wondering about the subject of glossololia. Your true friends will help you by providing accurate feedback, or to the best of their knowledge. They may tell you they feel better afterwards too!
Confidence seems to be a key here. If one is not speaking of confidence, then what are they speaking of? Speak of the Holy Spirit, and in humility invoke the Holy Spirit & the full presence of the Holy Spirit.
On top of all of this, remember the point of praying in tongues in the spirit. You are praying to God, in one of the most genuine forms.
“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit” (1 Cor 14:2).
𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗱 𝟭 𝗖𝗼𝗿 𝟭𝟰
He knows what you will say well before you do!
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January 22, 2022 at 8:07 am
I just spoke in tounges for the first time, before I would feel my tounge getting hard nd wanting to say something & I would stop it because I don’t like spiritual gifts, for me being a worshiper was enough or so I thought. In church when the holy spirit took over I would see people doing weird things and I didn’t want that but guess what it happened to me I couldn’t control myself I didn’t care but I would cry when I pray. But today played some music and all of a sudden I felt I have to pray now!!! Something happened while praying, I started to feel my tounge like twisting my head getting a bit warm, my hands in the air and I felt something like electric shock right under my toes throughout the whole body and I had stopped praying in my native and English language I started speaking in tounges for a long time and I felt a force making me to kneel down as I was speaking in tounges. But now I’m okay I can’t utter what I was saying I guess it’s something that happens when I pray, I lose control
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January 25, 2022 at 12:03 pm
I agree with the second point but the first one is definitely a no for me. If I know only two words in French, does that mean what I have spoken is not French? It just means my vocabulary in French is limited and if I learn more of it, I can improve. The same with tongues, repeating the same words over and over is just a sign of a small vocabulary, but as the spirit teaches, more syllables begin to form after a while. I recall, I had only 2 syllables the first time I spoke in tongues but now, I have matured in that area where various tongues just flow. Others are able to get it all from the get go and that’s fine. Please, if one speaks few tongues, they should not be condemned… only encouraged to grow as the spirit directs.
We must also remember that someone repeating the same tongue over and over is not necessarily a sign of weakness because you who can speak more syllables may be saying less in the spirit. That is why it is a mystery! It is not a language that can be translated, only interpreted by those with the gift. Oh how foolish are the things of God to the carnal mind. Thank you Jesus!
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February 4, 2022 at 4:05 am
My wife went into cardiac arrest, I gave her mouth too mouth recitation. We had a fibulator at our work place. By the time the paramedics came she lost all vitals again. However I kept giving her mouth too mouth. When they arrived, they worked on her for 40 minutes until she was revived again. She started speaking in tongues. For hours. She was literally dead for 2 months. Then she had a stroke. For the grace of God. She survived. She’s a real fighter. All is good with her
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April 17, 2022 at 3:55 pm
Yea, sure when i speaks in tongues i don’t think about the next sound, but sometimes when i speak there thinking in my mind, thinking about how people will hear my tongues
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June 26, 2022 at 1:42 pm
All these theories for checking the validity of speaking in tongues… Constantly repetition in a certain manner or order does not mean the tongues are not from the Holy Spirit.
When we engage in prayer by speaking in tongues to a point, the Holy Spirit interacts constantly with your spirit man and guides your spirit in prayer. When interceeding for example (instance from experience), you get to a juncture in prayer where your tongue is being seized on a particular pattern of words unknown and incomprehensible to your mind or say brain. Utterances in the Spirit by the Holy Spirit has no correlation to human knowledge because the pattern of Heaven where our prayers go as incense, is different from the Earth or say this ‘World’ which is why in the Lord’s Prayer; it says ‘thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven’.
Moreover, we have the Holy Spirit in us, the very Spirit that gives the valid koinonia utterances… If any speaking in tongues is disturbing to your spirit, you will know that this is not a valid koinonia utterance; provided you have the Holy Spirit.
The demon-possessed lady that was proclaiming that the Apostles were the servants of the Most High in the Book of Acts, will you tell me she did not have her utterances….but they sound disturbing to Paul so much that he was troubled in the Spirit.
In conclusion fellows in Christ, let us journey more in the Spirit… WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS…
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August 12, 2022 at 6:14 pm
Speaking in tongues can be tested. This is not testing God because we are told by John in 1 John 4:1 to ‘test the spirits to see whether they are from God’.
To test tongues speaking, get a session of one person’s tongues speaking audio recorded, then independently replay it to several people who supposedly can interpret tongues then compare the final results!
According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:5 interpreted tongues equate to prophecy – so the interpreters of the audio recording should give similar clear results. Give it a go —
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August 21, 2022 at 9:13 am
Amen praise God, I love the break down of this teaching.
May the Lord continue to give you peace.
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October 4, 2022 at 2:40 am
When I pray or sing to the Lord it just happens naturally. I have no idea what I am saying. I don’t know how to explain it but I get these sorta like shocks to my body then it starts. If someone was to say speak in tongues I could try but I can’t repeat what I said esp how fast I was talking. Im praying the Lord bless me with the gift of prophesy and healing. But all in due time. Serving the Lord is a marathon for me vs sprit. May his name forever be praised.
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February 20, 2023 at 1:19 am
Wow. A good révélation.
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March 13, 2023 at 5:06 am
There is absolutely nothing mysterious about Biblical “tongues” – and there is only one type – when referring to something spoken, they are nothing more than real, rational language(s); usually, but not always, unknown to those listening to them, but always known by the speaker(s) – it’s their native language (in some cases, it is a language the speaker has learned).
In contrast, the “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes) of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with.
It is, in part, typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, alliteration, assonance, and over-simplification of syllable structure. It is also interesting to note that any and all phonological rules (rules governing how sounds are put together in a given language – what is allowed and what is disallowed) governing a speaker’s native language, will _also_ govern their tongues-speech.
Further, this subset of phonemes mentioned above typically contains only those sounds which are easiest to produce physiologically.
Occasionally some speakers will use two or more subsets of phonemes to generate glossolalia, producing what, to them, sounds like two (or more) distinct “tongues languages”, thus claiming to be able to speak in “divers tongues”.
There is absolutely _nothing_ that “tongues-speakers” are producing that cannot be explained in relatively simple linguistic terms.
Conversely, when it comes to something spoken, there are absolutely _no_ Biblical references to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s), though it may not be the explanation you want to hear, and it may be one which is radically different from what you believe, or were taught. _Nowhere in the Bible is modern tongues-speech advocated or evidenced._
“Praying in the Spirit” does _not_ refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to ‘languages’ in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will.
I’m not doubting or questioning the ‘tongues experience’; glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound. As one commenter put it, “Speaking in tongues distracts the ego/analytical/conscious mind while leaving the subconscious (the heart) wide open to import the divine.” Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented. Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually _any_ other culture that practices glossolalia. Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia an Evenki Shaman in Siberia, a vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian tongues-speaker in Alabama are producing are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from. It is only in certain Christian denominations where is it construed as something it never was.
For many tongues-speakers, a lot of it seems to be about perception. To use an analogy, why is that when people with Schizophrenia say that someone is watching and following them, we tend to think it’s paranoia, but when your mum says it, you go to the police?
Same perception and associated claim (i.e. each perceive that someone is watching and following them)
The (probable) validity and meaning of the claim hinges and changes on the difference in the physical state and capacity of who is doing the perceiving and claiming.
Same as with glossolalia – it’s validity, so to speak, tends to hinge on how it is perceived by the individual from what they are experiencing….or, perhaps even more so, what they were _taught_ to experience. I tend to think it’s a bit of both.
‘Tongues’ (read, *‘languages’* ) – the divine gift, is the God given ability to effortlessly learn to speak and be understood through real-language barriers. It is not xenoglossy, nor is it modern tongues-speech.
As a point of note, I’m a Linguist, and let me also add here that I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”.
It’s always a bit interesting to see how different tongues-speakers skate around what for them is that awkward discrepancy between the real, rational languages of Pentecost and the so-called “prayer language “ of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians by instituting various “types” of “tongues”. There is only one type of “tongue(s)” in the Bible when referring to something spoken – real rational language(s).
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April 22, 2023 at 10:46 am
Who are any of you to judge weather someone has the gift of speaking in tongues or not. Didn’t you get the gift of decrement. Do you know for sure if the person sitting next to you at church is truly saved or not? Or how do you test to see if a prophet has interpreted what was spoken in tongues is correct? You can’t you are not supposed to judge weather someone is faking or not because God gives us the gift of discernment and that should be enough to know if what someone is telling us is true or not. But the best way would be to ask God himself. That’s the problem with religion today they’re always trying To prove somebody to be fake instead of worrying about their own relationship with God. Maybe if we quit worrying about the one sitting next to us and if they really have God in their life and start worrying about our own life and whether we are right with God then the church would be a much better place. And I liked how You explained speaking in tongues and the Mind not thinking about it. Jesus said don’t try to take the spec out of somebody else’s eye when you have a log in your own. So people need to worry about their own relationship with God and not if someone sitting next to them is speaking in tongues or not.
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April 28, 2023 at 9:47 pm
Iv never realized how intense this can be. I was very young when I was participating in many religious activities. From Christian, Mormon , Baptist & non denominational churches. My mother had me going to many realigns. Laying on hands happened regularly. I remember once I was in someone’s home with many other people. They were in a circle around me praying. I started to shake & tears pored down my face. I then started speaking a language I didn’t understand.
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June 26, 2023 at 2:23 pm
Well done.
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June 26, 2023 at 2:23 pm
Well done.
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July 1, 2023 at 5:56 am
This believe is similar of mine
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October 1, 2023 at 10:06 am
I don’t know if I am I repeat sometimes the other times I’m speaking very fast and saying paragraphs so i don’t know if I am or not and no one believes I can speak in tounges
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October 6, 2023 at 12:13 pm
I have asked myself a million time if I am truly speaking in tongues. I had been praying for around 3 years for the gift of tongues until one day it happened. Every time I speak in tongues it never sounds the same. For example the first time it sound like I was speaking in Chinese the next time it sounded like I was speaking in native Indian language. Alway different. This is why I have questioned. There are time I can’t hear anything and other times when I can. I have had one experience where it was clear as day and I knew who it was speaking and they were speaking a language they didn’t know and I was understanding them and knew exactly what they were saying. I have also had time when I have been praying and when I start speaking in tongues (obviously out of my control) I can feel a dark presence trying to stop me from speaking in tongues. There have been times where I have been super drained after and other times when I have a lot of energy. I have had time when I have been super hot like heat pad being put on my body. I am not writing this because I want to be a vain person it is because I want to know if others who speak in tongues have experienced any of these things as well. There is more I have experienced but will spot with what I have written.
Please give me your thought and comment.
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February 13, 2024 at 1:15 am
[…] or divine communication, rather than random or fabricated sounds [4]. For example, an individual speaking in tongues may suddenly begin articulating coherent phrases in a language they have never learned, providing […]
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March 5, 2024 at 10:21 am
I want to pray in tongues so much. Idk what my problem is. I can’t seem to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I’m not even sure I’m saved. Please pray for me.
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March 26, 2024 at 12:55 pm
How come one never hears, including through much of this posting (I admit I have not read them all) that the “speaking in tongues” never seems to be a familiar tongue, a language we can recognize but you know that person has never had teaching in the language? It is only some weird unknown “angelic” language that no one knows anyway. I find it very hard to believe in, very hard. I don’t completely disbelieve, but it is always an unrecognizable language. . . .
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