Moral relativism – the notion that there are no moral truths, and thus “morals” are subjective preferences relative to individuals or societies – is widespread in our day, particularly among the younger segments of society. I would venture to say that moral relativism appeals to so many people because it gives them the intellectual justification they need to engage in their sins of choice. This cheap form of moral justification is not without its costs, however.
While moral relativism is an easy way to justify participation in acts that others consider morally objectionable, it also makes it impossible to condemn the acts of others that one finds morally repugnant. And believe me, every moral relativist has a list of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors that they think are morally wrong – not just for them, but for everyone!
For example, one might subscribe to moral relativism because he wants to justify his gay lifestyle, but he is not content to have his own morality. He doesn’t merely wish that everyone shared his preference, but thinks that everyone should share his point of view. Those who have a different morality are not viewed as merely different, but immoral. He boldly proclaims to those who oppose homosex, or those who act intolerantly toward gays are thinking and acting immorally. What he fails to realize is that his moral relativism robs him of the moral currency necessary to issue such condemnations. If there are no moral truths, there is no basis for moral condemnation of any sort for anything. Moral relativism eliminates any basis for thinking anti-homosexual beliefs, attitudes, and actions are wrong. There are no moral qualities to any beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors. They just are, and we choose them based on our personal preferences.
If the moral relativist is going to act consistent with his moral relativism, then he must be silent. He has no more right to object to your preferences regarding homosex than he has to object to your preferences regarding ice-cream flavors. Indeed, more than silence is required. He must make every effort to rid himself of the delusory belief that others are acting immoral to begin with! If there are no moral truths, others are just acting – they are not acting immorally. He may not share their preferences, but why should that concern him or them?
Moral relativism comes with a cost. To live out one’s moral relativism consistently requires that they forgo making moral judgments. But people can’t give that up. Why? Because there are moral truths, and all of us have moral knowledge via our moral intuitions. We are moral creatures at our core. While people pay lip service to moral relativism, nobody is a moral relativist in practice. Moral relativists don’t stop believing in moral truths. They simply rearrange their moral categories, moving many items that have traditionally been listed on the “immoral” side of the ledger to the “moral” side, and vice-versa. That’s not moral relativism. That’s good-old-fashioned moral realism twisted by the wickedness of the human heart. The problem we are facing is not the subjectivity of morality, but the morality of subjects themselves.
October 2, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Man is that twisted logic. So basically only people like you have the right to cast judgment upon others. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying to me. Just because I believe our morals are connected to society doesn’t mean I think I have the right to do whatever I want. Just because I don’t go around telling other people they are immoral and going to hell doesn’t mean I’m wrong. It seems funny that absolutists are so absolute on these supposed truths, yet cannot prove any moral truths at all. Where we get our morals may not be cut and dry, but trying to understand them logically doesn’t mean that you try to twist morality to fit your own desires. Just because I don’t believe that gay sex is hurting anyone, or immoral, doesn’t mean I want to be gay.it just means that if it doesn’t affect or hurt anyone, it is not my right to espouse to everyone that they are immoral. Your logic is backwards.
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October 2, 2012 at 2:00 pm
Jason W
It should be obvious that only those who believe in moral truths can say “you have violated a moral truth.” How could people who do not believe in the existence of moral truths tell someone else that they have committed a moral wrong? How can you violate something that does not exist? If what we call morality is nothing more than value-less social or individual preferences, then someone is no more wrong for preferring intolerance to tolerance than they are for preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream. There is no truth about the best ice-cream flavor, and if there are no moral truths, then there is no right or wrong point-of-view or behavior.
Why don’t you have the right to do whatever you want if there are no moral truths? What logical (as opposed to practical) constraint is there on you?
Prove moral truths? Most of them are obvious to sane people. We may disagree on how or when they apply to specific situations, but we all know what they are. Everyone knows that courage, love, and tolerance are moral goods, while treachery, hatred, and intolerance more moral evils. Moral truths no more need to be proved than logic needs to be proved.
Who said that someone who doesn’t think gay sex is wrong wants to be gay?
Jason
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October 3, 2012 at 3:23 am
Let me state this another way. If grass did not exist, it would be impossible to be mistaken about questions regarding its color. As a non-existent entity it has no properties, and thus there can be right or wrong answer to the question. Likewise, if moral truths do not exist, then no matter what one thinks or how one acts, it cannot be considered good or bad because those are fictitious qualities. We can only say whether we prefer some X or not; it is meaningless to say X is good or bad. We may prefer the results of some act X over –X or even some act Y for objective reasons (perhaps X results in more happiness than –X or Y), but our preference does not render someone else’s choice of –X or Y morally wrong. The bottom line is that you can’t be wrong unless there are truths to be wrong about. If there are no moral truths, then it’s impossible to be morally wrong about anything.
Also, think about what it means to say someone is morally wrong. It means they have an obligation to do/think X, but have failed to fulfill their obligation. But if there are no moral truths, then surely there can no moral obligations! One can’t appeal to a form of social relativism and claim we have an obligation to obey society’s moral code. I have no obligation to think vanilla ice cream is the best ice cream just because society has chosen to prefer that flavor of ice-creams above all others, and I have no obligation to think murder is wrong just because my society prefers not-murdering to murder. Preferences are preferences, and there is no rational basis to claim that we are obligated to adopt one set of preferences over another simply because a lot of people we know have adopted those preferences.
If there are no moral truths, then nobody is right and nobody is wrong about anything. We all just have our own preferences.
Jason
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October 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm
OK first the gay part. What I mean by that is that in your article you are implying that someone only wants to be a moral relativist if that person is wanting to live an immoral life. I’m sure you are aware that you did that. Not all moral relativists are relativists because they are bad people, like you are suggesting. I may live by the exact same moral standards as you and still be a relativist.
I’m not sure what it is you keep going on about how if all of a sudden morals didn’t exist ,the whole world would fall apart. Whether or not moral truths exist doesn’t change anything about how we live right now, because this is the reality that we live in. I only suggest that even if there are moral truths, they cannot be proven. Sure it would seam that good is good and wrong is wrong, but there is always a gray area in between, and to say that you know exactly where the line is on everything is a foolhardy statement. I believe that we all live by moral standards. Standards that most people agree upon. But like you said, there are those who don’t believe those standards to be right, and go out and kill, and steal, and live life as if there are no rules. But that doesn’t mean that there are no standards. There are logical, practical, rational, and yes, obvious, reasons why certain things are good. But that does not mean that everything has to be absolute. Not everything has an absolute right or wrong tagged with it, there will always be moral gray areas. Some moral standards present themselves naturally, and have been agreed upon for a long time throughout society. Some change from place to place. I also believe that we are born with certain moral codes that we already know, that are instinctive. I’m not sure whether these are handed down over time, or given by God, but they are innate. My actual point in this is that even if there are moral truths, they are innate. Moral codes and standards, and especially truths, are not handed down by the Bible. The Bible is not the source for all moral truth. And if any single moral truth would exist, it would still not show that everything has a moral truth. And you would still be hard pressed to prove that it was a perfect truth. Let’s remember that the Bible was written by man, and always has the possibility of just being human inspired, and not necessarily divine moral truth. Many morals have changed since the Bible was written and many immoral things were considered moral back then. If any morals are truths they are handed down by God through each individual person, and not revealed. A man written document can never be shown to provide perfect moral truth, and until it does, that is a subjective statement.
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October 3, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Hi, Jason W.
You wrote:
“I only suggest that even if there are moral truths, they cannot be proven.”
Then wrote:
“But that doesn’t mean that there are no standards. There are logical, practical, rational, and yes, obvious, reasons why certain things are good. But that does not mean that everything has to be absolute. Not everything has an absolute right or wrong tagged with it, there will always be moral gray areas.”
There is a difference between what we can know and prove through knowledge, versus what actually exists. There may be a black speck of sand on the back side of planet X, which, though can never be proven to exist, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, as it may in fact, do so. Therefore, existence is not always dependent on provability. We may not be able to absolutely prove ALL moral standards and truths (on account of our own epistemological limitations), but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. So our ignorance of them or our inability to properly understand them or realize (i.e. achieve) them in our daily lives, doesn’t negate their existence.
As far as “gray areas” go, the only real gray areas are the areas of personal interpretation of moral standards of truth. That’s why people and groups, and societies and civilizations don’t always hold to the same standards of moral right and wrong. Not because there isn’t a standard, but because we disagree on how to keep the standard or how necessary having such a standard is. This doesn’t degrade the absolute. The form is still pure and perfect; the issue is us and the liberty of choice we have to pretty much speak, act, and do whatever we want regardless of the rules of morality.
Later, you wrote:
“I’m not sure whether these are handed down over time, or given by God, but they are innate…If any morals are truths they are handed down by God through each individual person, and not revealed….”
So then, it’s God who is the relativist? If such morals are innate and handed down by God individually, then it would stand to reason we’d all have the same standards of moral right and wrong or else God hands down different standards for different people. Do you believe that’s the case? If so, since these standards can’t be proven (according to your previously quoted statement), how and why do you believe such to be so?
Finally, you also wrote:
“Let’s remember that the Bible was written by man, and always has the possibility of just being human inspired, and not necessarily divine moral truth.”
Let’s also remember that there are people who do not adhere to such a statement, so it’s not really a legitimate expectation to place on people.
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October 4, 2012 at 5:08 am
So I should believe in this black speck even though it cannot be proven?
Morals handed down innately are not the only way we gain morals, hence the difference in people’s morals in different places and different times. There are numerous ways that shape our morals. You’re assuming to know things, or truths, which you rationally know that you don’t know. Whether they exist or not does nothing for us if we don’t even know what they are. I could site you hundreds of gray area moral questions and people of the same religion would answer differently. If we don’t know exactly what these moral truths are, how are we supposed to adhere to them?
I’m not putting expectations on anyone, but I am showing that some people will never even think about seeing something from a different perspective. If you never even rationalize a different perspective, what is the point of even talking about other beliefs and religions? Oh I know, just to prove how wrong they are.
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October 4, 2012 at 6:41 am
It is not moral relativism to disagree with you about what morality is. Anyone that wants their morality to be the morality of all people are moral objectivists: they believe they understand objective morality. Never confuse relativism with subjectivism. Relativism can still be objective and have actual truths.
I believe morality is relative and objective. That means that I do not believe in any sort of Kantian absolutes, but that each situation has true moral and true immoral acts.
This is something that most religious people agree with: there is a time for murder (I read the Old Testament and I read about the Witch Hunts and about Ji’had… most religions agree that there is a time when killing is permissible) and there are times for forgiveness (I read the New Testament and the early parts of the Koran).
There are a few secular philosophies that reach the same conclusion, Sam Harris’ The Moral Landscape captures a lot of it really well.
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October 4, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Let’s take one example that you say is explicitly immoral. Fornication. I slept with my wife before we got married. I slept with her several times in fact. We even had a baby together before we were married. Now I know that you believe that sex before marriage is immoral. But how can you prove that? How can you condemn me for something that you cannot yourself prove is immoral? Now I know that you can pick up the Bible and say, ‘see here, this is where it says that sex before marriage is immoral’. But that does not show a moral truth. That shows that the societal norm for that time and culture agreed that it was immoral. But it cannot be shown to be a universal truth in reality. So even if it was a moral truth, how can it be shown to be a moral truth? In what way can you substantiate that this is immoral without referring back to a book? Truths are relative if they cannot be proven. Whether it exists or not is irrelevant to the real world.
There are many things that were moral for the time of the Bible that are immoral now, so how can you use the Bible as your example of moral truths if even things in the Bible, like rape, genocide, slavery, etc, are considered immoral now? If the Bible cannot be shown to be perfectly moral, what do we have to show us specifically everything that is right and wrong? According to what you are saying, you can take every situation of every place, every time, for every person, and explicitly say whether it is right or wrong, down to even the minutest detail. According to what you are saying, there never exists any moral dilemmas, ever. I cannot agree to that. Even if I agree that some moral absolutes might exist, I can never say that everything that exists has a moral absolute.
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October 4, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Hi, Jason W.
You wrote:
“So I should believe in this black speck even though it cannot be proven?”
No, you don’t have to, and I wouldn’t expect you to. This was just a simple, arbitrary example. Now, you might say that you are then free to not believe in anything that cannot be proven. And yes, you have that liberty of choice to do so.
But I submit that you believe in any large number of un-provable items/things in the world and our history. Some things are taken on faith, and then that faith is validated by and through experience. Anything from as simple and meaningless as believing that when you hit the Post Comment button on this blog, your comment is actually going to be posted, to believing that a bank will accurately store your account information and keep your money secure (prior to you ever opening an account there). You just simply believe, and after you move to prove what you believe, you find your faith either validated or not. We do this kind of mundane stuff everyday, all day.
Take history. So much of the historical record of our existence is un-provable, yet we readily believe any account that seems to be accurate, or because some expert in the field validates the history sufficiently for us to believe the expert and thus, the record. This is all faith, not empirical evidence. Much of it is even blind, at least to begin with.
But moral truths are not like some black speck in some distance corner of space. They don’t have to be blindly believed in and then validated. They simply exist, much in the same way as logic and mathematics and the laws of physics, whether they are followed/obeyed or not.
The existence of logic doesn’t stop people from being illogical. Rules of mathematics don’t keep people from doing math incorrectly. Moral truths don’t stop people from being immoral. But illogical statements, errors in math, and immorality does not negate the existence of the laws and truths of logic, math, and morality.
So take your example of fornication. You admit to it. Presumably, your conscience is not in any way bothered by your actions? I assume you feel no remorse? And so, you take it that you haven’t committed an immoral action?
Let’s say my assumptions here are correct. Does this in any way disprove or invalidate moral objectivism? Not at all. It just proves that you’re not morally bothered by such a behavior. Psychopaths might say the same thing about murder. It doesn’t prove a thing that a person feels no moral compunction against their own actions. Most people don’t. That’s why they continue in such actions.
This doesn’t mean that the way they acted or are acting is morally right or that there isn’t a moral, objective truth that demonstrates such behavior is wrong, unrighteous, or what have you. It also doesn’t mean that there isn’t a God who is Judge who can and will, according to His own Word, determine their final, eternal state.
But, hey, maybe God’s just some black speck on the backside of some planet, anyways? That would certainly be convenient.
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October 5, 2012 at 8:59 am
What criteria must be met in order for a moral claim to be true or false?
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October 5, 2012 at 9:59 am
Jason W,
You said a lot, and I disagree with a lot of it (no surprise), so I apologize for the lengthy response, but I do hope you’ll read it because I think you have fundamentally confused some categories.
I can see how you could interpret me to say that people only adopt moral relativism because they want to live an immoral lifestyle, but that is not my position. I think it is a strong motivation for many people, but not the only motivation (and for some people, it’s not a motivation at all, but rather a perk that follows from their rejection of moral realism for other reasons). Some people are attracted to moral relativism because they think it will make for peace in the world (if nobody is right, then there’s no reason to fight). Of course, these are motivations rather than reasons per se. There are some relativists who adopt moral relativism for intellectual reasons. For example, they might be skeptical about any claims to knowledge, and thus do not think moral knowledge is possible. Or, after studying anthropology they think it is just an empirical fact that morals are relative to each culture, and hence, morals are subjective rather than objective. I think these are bad reasons, but reasons they are nonetheless.
I didn’t say that if morals didn’t exist the whole world would fall apart (by which I interpret you to mean people would become as bad as they can be). I said, “Why don’t you have the right to do whatever you want if there are no moral truths? What logical (as opposed to practical) constraint is there on you?” These are questions about the logical implications of moral relativism, not necessarily the practical implications—questions you failed to answer, I might add. If there are no moral truths, then X is neither good nor bad. Though society may not prefer X, why can’t a person do X if he prefers to do so? For example, since there are no moral truths rape is neither good nor bad. Most people may not like rape, but that is just their preference in a world devoid of moral truths. Why should those few who do like rape (and they obviously exist) abstain from raping women if rape is not wrong. What is the logical basis for depriving someone of their preference?
BTW, I grant that even if moral values do not exist (or if they do exist and yet no one believes they exist) that most people will still lead relatively “moral” lives for practical reasons if nothing else. Indeed, I think the reason most moral relativists lead pretty moral lives is because morals do exist, and they have moral knowledge, and their conscience will not allow them to participate in many evils. One may deny moral truths but that doesn’t make them go away.
I’ve already addressed your point about proving moral truths. I think the very request for proof shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of moral truths. It makes no more sense to ask someone to prove their existence (speaking on a meta-ethical level, not on the level of applied ethics) than it does to ask someone to prove the laws of logic. These are first principles, and the way we know them is through our intuitions. In the same way I have logical intuitions that allow me to just “see” that the law of non-contradiction is true, I have moral intuitions that allow me to just “see” that raping women is wrong (even if they are unconscious and experience no mental or physical effects from it). Logic and morality are first-principles. They are used to prove other things, but they themselves are not in need of proof, and cannot be proven. We do not arrive at these truths as conclusions to inductive or deductive arguments. Rather, they serve as the axioms that are the foundation for all premises. We should be no more skeptical of our moral intuitions than we are of our logical or sensory intuitions.
You wrote, “Sure it would seam that good is good and wrong is wrong, but there is always a gray area in between, and to say that you know exactly where the line is on everything is a foolhardy statement.” You are confusing moral ontology with moral epistemology; meta-ethics with applied ethics. Even if I thought every moral issue was gray, such that we could not know any moral truths, that would not mean there are no moral truths. If you present a calculus problem to 3rd graders, most likely you will generate a host of answers, and every one of them will be wrong, but that doesn’t mean there is no right answer to the problem. Likewise, just because there are gray areas in ethics (an epistemological problem), it does not mean there are no moral truths (an ontological question). Not knowing X is not the same thing as, and is not evidence for the conclusion that X does not exist.
You speak of “standards” that most people live by, but these standards are arbitrary are relative to the culture/individual. They are not morals, and they are not “good” in any objective, meaningful sense of the word. They are just chosen preferences that people live by, no different than the rules of Monopoly. The standards that you think are logical, practical, rational, and…obvious” another person/culture thinks are illogical, impractical, irrational, and far from obvious. It seems logical, practical, rational, and obvious to us that burning a widow over her husband’s grave is immoral, but for the Hindus this was seen as a good thing to do. So what do you tell the Hindu who disagrees with your logic and the obviousness of his wrong? How can you object to his preference?
You wrote, “I also believe that we are born with certain moral codes that we already know, that are instinctive. I’m not sure whether these are handed down over time, or given by God, but they are innate. My actual point in this is that even if there are moral truths, they are innate. Moral codes and standards, and especially truths, are not handed down by the Bible.” This threw me for a loop. If moral codes are innate, then in what sense do you take them to be relative? Are they relative because they can change over time as we develop evolutionarily (as our biology or ecology changes), or are they relative because not all people share the same innate moral truths?
As for saying moral truths “are not handed down by the Bible,” I agree with you if you are referring to the grounding of moral values (ontology) and our knowledge of morality (epistemology). God, not the Bible, is the grounding of moral truths. As for epistemology, the Bible is not the source of moral knowledge such that if one has never read the Bible, they cannot have moral knowledge. Christian theism teaches that all men have moral knowledge in the form of their conscience. We are all made in God’s image, and thus we are moral beings like Him. Moral knowledge is innate, which is why I speak of moral intuitions. These are truths we know about morality that we do not get from some external source, whether it be experience, authority figures, or literature. The Bible may give us additional moral knowledge that we could not know from conscience alone, but the Bible is not the source and genesis of morality or moral knowledge.
Jason
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October 5, 2012 at 10:00 am
Allallt,
Can you define how you are using “objective” and “subjective,” because based on the standard definition these are opposites, and thus both cannot be attributed to morality at the same time and in the same way. And what do you find objective about morality, and what do you find subjective about morality? You mention situations. Do you mean to say that the situation determines which objective moral rule applies? If so, that is not subjective.
Jason
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October 5, 2012 at 10:00 am
Jason W,
Regarding your last comment about fornication. I don’t need to prove that fornication is wrong to show that moral truths exist. I could just as well admit that I have no proof that it is wrong, or say that it is a gray area, and it would still be the case that moral truths exist. It would just be that we may not be able to know for sure the moral truth regarding fornication.
As for pointing to the Bible, that would show fornication to be wrong if it can be shown that God exists, is a moral being, and revealed His moral commands to certain individuals, including a command the people that he created to reserve sex for the marital relationship.
But I think there are good reasons to think it is wrong. Look how many people get hurt by premarital sex. When sex is engaged in outside the context of monogamous marriage, it results in sexually transmitted diseases, in fatherless children (in most cases), etc. The consequences often prove to be bad. In contrast, when people only have sex in a committed, monogamous relationship you do not have those things.
I think you have misinterpreted the OT on the moral issues you raised, but it would take me too far afield to correct you on that, so I’ll leave it alone. Instead, I’ll recommend you read “Is God a Moral Monster” or “God Behaving Badly.”
No, I’m not saying there never exists moral dilemmas. I say quite the opposite. There are times when two or more moral values come into conflict. The dilemma is trying to figure out which one takes precedent in that situation. Indeed, if moral relativism is true there can never be a moral dilemma. There can only be a preference dilemma.
Jason
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October 5, 2012 at 10:07 am
Jason W,
You asked “what criteria must be met in order for a moral claim to be true or false?” It must correspond to something in the real world. In other words, it must be the case that if I say “murder is wrong,” there must be some moral value that exists in reality that “murder is wrong.”
I think the deeper question you are getting at is not what it would take for it to be true, but how we can know whether or not it’s true. That’s an important question, but we need to keep moral epistemology distinct from moral ontology. Moral relativism does not follow from difficulties in moral epistemology. Even if it is difficult to know whether some moral claims are true or not, that does not mean there is no moral truth about the issue. But not all moral claims are difficult to discern their truth value. Murder, for example, is clearly wrong. That moral value is perceived by all human beings (even the ones who violate it). If we can know even one moral truth, then it demonstrates the existence of a realm of objective moral values, and renders moral relativism is false.
Jason
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October 5, 2012 at 11:17 am
Jason, thanks for your answers. I think we are coming from the same page on a few things, but looking at it differently. I can agree with you that some moral values exist. I can agree with you that some gray areas exist. And also that some moral values are innate. I differ in thinking they are also shaped over time. Where I have a problem though, is handing down the thought of moral truths to other people. You state…”Regarding your last comment about fornication. I don’t need to prove that fornication is wrong to show that moral truths exist. I could just as well admit that I have no proof that it is wrong, or say that it is a gray area, and it would still be the case that moral truths exist. It would just be that we may not be able to know for sure the moral truth regarding fornication. ”
This is my point. If no one can be sure what truths exist, to what extent, and why, then what is the difference between having moral truths and not having moral truths? Let’s say moral truths do exist, where does that get us? How can you state that someone else is morally wrong if you cannot show why? My point I guess is with the epistemology aspect. You state in your article…
“While moral relativism is an easy way to justify participation in acts that others consider morally objectionable, it also makes it impossible to condemn the acts of others that one finds morally repugnant.”
OK, how is it possible to condemn others on the grounds of something that cannot be shown? You admit you have no proof, but also say you have grounds to condemn others, while a relativist does not. I don’t see the difference. A relativist can show, using relativistic reasoning, similar to your statement…”But I think there are good reasons to think it is wrong. Look how many people get hurt by premarital sex. When sex is engaged in outside the context of monogamous marriage, it results in sexually transmitted diseases, in fatherless children (in most cases), etc. The consequences often prove to be bad. In contrast, when people only have sex in a committed, monogamous relationship you do not have those things. ” Every single bit of this is condemnation through a relativistic view. You say relativists cannot cendemn using this point of view, yet you do just the same. I’m confused about how you have the right based on absolute moral truths that cannot be shown, but a relativist cannot, using reasoning that CAN be shown.
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October 5, 2012 at 12:57 pm
I have not said that morality is subjective and objective. I have said that morality is relative and objective.
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October 5, 2012 at 2:25 pm
Allalt, my bad. But my questions remain. I don’t see the difference between subjective and relative. In my mind, something can only be relative if it is also subjective. So how are you defining your terms: subjective, objective, and relative. Your view is not clear to me.
Jason
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October 6, 2012 at 5:27 am
The synonym pairs are “absolute and relative” and “subjective and objective”.
Objective refers to matters of fact, subjective refers to matter of opinion.
Relative morality simply means that approaches like Kantian absolutes are not the right approaches.
Think about how an absolute like “don’t kill” is not applicable in war. The situation is relative to the situation you are in, but still objectively true.
My perspective is similar to Sam Harris’ in The Moral Landscape in this respect. You objectively can objectively measure wellbeing, and acts are objectively moral if they increase or safeguard wellbeing. What the actual act is is different in each situation, therefore it is relative.
But it is not a matter of opinion.
This may help you understand my position better: http://allalltor.wordpress.com/quick-post-navigation/
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October 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm
“What criteria must be met in order for a moral claim to be true or false?”
I think the axiom “Do onto others as you would have them do onto you” is the right place to start. This idea, while spoken directly by Christ, is actually upheld in many others cultures and traditions. It seems to be the bedrock of all morality.
The average, sane human in the world doesn’t want to be lied to, cheated, mistreated, abused (verbally or physically), harmed, betrayed, stolen from, raped, or murdered, and/or otherwise unlawfully damaged in any way, etc. Therefore, the criteria for a moral claim is found here.
If I don’t want to be treated or talked to a certain way, then I am morally obligated to not treat or talk to someone else in that way. This is not about preference. This is universal. Morality is really about doing what is right by my fellow human being first, and toward myself second.
Less than this is an immoral, law of the jungle, kill or be killed mentality or system, which, while some espouse, is not the norm, because again, I am talking about average, sane people.
This, then, therefore, is the how a moral claim is proved to be true versus false. Coupled with one’s conscience, we do, like Jason said, have an innate moral intuition (for lack of a better term) on what is and is not a moral behavior.
Even when there are so-called gray areas, or when our understanding is limited, we can take into account each unique situation which calls for a moral decision, and successfully deduce the right speech, action, or behavior, especially if we abide by the Golden Rule mentioned above.
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October 7, 2012 at 7:45 am
If it was a truth, and not relativistic, the situation would not matter. Objective, absolute truths do not rely on situations, only relativistic views do.
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October 7, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Jason W.
It is wrong to consider relativistic phenomena as mutually exclusive or opposite to objective. The opposite to objective is subjective.
Things can be both objective and relative (so long as there is an underlying, unifying and objective feature).
For morality, I suggest to you that wellbeing (by definition) is the underlying and objective feature. If you want to see how that would work I thoroughly recommend Sam Harris’ The Moral Landscape. It’s not perfect, but it gives a fantastic overview of how this idea can work.
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October 7, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Allallt,
I can understand what you are saying, but this is an article against relativism. How can they use relativity to uphold their argument against relativism?
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October 8, 2012 at 7:39 am
Jason W.
I am saying the article is wrong in its word use. Its argument is an argument against subjective morality, but it says relative. The entire article does nothing to describe, discount of challenge relative morality.
The article does a good job of explaining subjective morality and discrediting subjective morality.
Moral relativism can still be objectively true and therefore a moral relativist could still argue for a moral truth. I’m only arguing that the post makes a big mistake in word use, and am trying to explain why.
It’s important to me because I am a moral relativist who believes in moral truth because I am not a moral subjectivist.
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October 8, 2012 at 8:13 am
Allallt,
I can see where you are coming from, and it makes much more sense than the approach in the article. I have yet to hear Jason D’s take on this, so I’m not sure if he agrees with you or not.
I believe in objective moral standards, but not absolute moral truths, if that is a logical assumption. I definitely believe in moral relativity. But what I’m sensing from Jason D, everything has a moral truth that trancends time and culture. This I have a problem with. If this is true, than it proves a lot of things in the Bible immoral. If morals are not relative, then the whole concept of fornication before marriage being immoral falls on it’s face. Pro-creation is the essence of humanity, and sex was vital to survival aeons before any marriage certificate was ever handed out. I can agree with your assumption of objective and relative moral standards, but still stop short of absolute moral truths. My problems with the article is the assumption of who has the right to judge according to things that cannot be shown. Using a relative term to describe something considered absolute doesn’t exactly show it’s absolute truth. I may be wrong, but what you acsribe to isn’t moral absolutism, as the post describes. With moral absolutism, this article is saying that one who acsribes to moral absolutism has the right to force morals on others, while a moral relativist does not, and then goes on to explain in relativistic terms why morals are absolute truths. If the same logic is used to ascribe these morals, I don’t see the difference in who has the right to force morals on others.
I like to use the term moral standards, because I cannot believe in morals that trancend time and nature, without any subjectivity. Moral standards can be shown, but not in every situation, in every culture, in every time. If so, then slavery, rape, genocide, are all immoral but were considered moral at the time of the bible, a couple of generations after Jesus. Which mean the people of the Bible were less likely to be inspired by God if they cannot even get their absolute moral truths correct. If the people of the Bible cannot get moral truths right, then I don’t see how an abolutist has any more right to force morals on others than the moral standards that are brought about through culture, time, and innate morals handed down instinctively.
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October 8, 2012 at 8:25 am
Basically, a moral relativist has every right to judge the morals of others as does a moral absolutist. Both use logic and social mores to direct their line of thinking. None can be shown any more true than the other. And both have an underlying set of values in which to judge. The only difference is where those values come from, but those values are still there. I can just as well say murder is wrong because people don’t like to be dead and violence against others is seen as wrong in our society, as can a moral absolutist say murder is wrong, because it has always been wrong.
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October 15, 2012 at 10:43 am
Jason W,
If you agree with me that some moral values exist, then you are a moral realist, not a moral relativist! Remember, a moral realist does not have to believe that humans can have perfect knowledge of the moral law (or any knowledge at all, for that matter). He only has to believe that there are moral truths that are objective features of reality.
What is your problem with handing down moral truths to other people? What do you mean by “handing down” moral truths? And do you feel the same about mathematical or logical truths? So what’s different about moral truths?
As for being shaped over time, I probably agree with you more than you realize. I believe humans and human cultures can develop morally over time (e.g. a culture can experience moral improvement by ceasing to enslave people). This does not mean morality has changed, or that moral truths have changed, but that humans have improved their behavior to bring it in conformity with enduring moral truths.
Moral behavior can also evolve in a culture – not because their moral values have – but because their understanding of the facts have changed. For example, all people in all cultures in all time have believed that it is wrong to kill innocent human beings without sufficient justification. What they disagree on is the facts: who is a human, who is innocent, and what is sufficient justification? This plays itself out in the abortion debate. Both abortion opponents and abortion proponents hold to the same moral principles, but disagree over the facts. Those in favor of abortion do not think the unborn are valuable human persons whereas those opposed to abortion do. I think the facts support the latter, and if culture at large comes to agree and outlaw abortion, this evolution of our moral beliefs is not an example of evolving morality. The moral truths never changed; only culture’s understanding of the relevant facts, and thus how to apply the enduring moral truth (applied ethics). The mistake that moral relativists make is in thinking that debates over applied ethics indicate differences in moral values. This simply isn’t true.
You asked, “If no one can be sure what truths exist, to what extent, and why, then what is the difference between having moral truths and not having moral truths?” Can you imagine asking this same question of mathematical problems? What if everyone in the room offers different answers to the same problem, and all of them were unsure about who was right. Should they say it doesn’t make a difference if there is a right answer or not? No. And I would argue that It makes a huge difference, because if moral truths exist then it is at least possible to come to the right answer to the question. If moral truths exist, then there is a reason to engage in dialogue about it and debate it—to discover the truth. But if there is no moral truth, then there is no hope of ever coming to a consensus. We are left at a stand-off. We can never hope for moral improvement, or increased moral knowledge.
Moral epistemology is important. And I understand that on a practical level it seems pointless whether X exists if we cannot know X. But two points should be made. First, while there may be some moral issues that are hard to figure out the moral truth about, that doesn’t mean all moral questions are unclear. Secondly, my point in focusing on moral ontology is because it is logically fallacious to conclude from the difficulty of obtaining moral knowledge that moral truths do not exist. That’s why, if a moral relativist is going to conclude that moral truths do not exist, he must find reasons unrelated to epistemology.
You asked, “OK, how is it possible to condemn others on the grounds of something that cannot be shown?” Moral condemnation is something I offer. It does not have to be received by the other person. Only moral correction requires that they agree with my moral assessment. My point in saying “While moral relativism is an easy way to justify participation in acts that others consider morally objectionable, it also makes it impossible to condemn the acts of others that one finds morally repugnant” was that given moral relativism, one cannot assess someone else’s behavior as being wrong.
I didn’t say I have no proof that fornication is wrong. In fact, I offered evidence. I only said that I don’t need to be able to demonstrate the truth of every moral claim/judgment I make in order to know that moral truths exist, in the same manner that I don’t need to be able to know how I know the answer to a geometry problem, or be able to demonstrate to you that the answer is right, to know I am right, and to actually be right.
As for your analysis of my rationale for why fornication is wrong, you said it is a relativistic view. How so? Because I use consequences to demonstrate that something is morally wrong? That’s not unique to relativism (what is unique to relativism is the claim that there are no moral truths, which is precisely opposite of my point). Also, I am not saying that what makes fornication wrong is the consequences, but rather that we can know something is wrong by its consequences. Consequences are one way we know some X is wrong, not what makes it wrong. In contrast, on various non-realistic versions of morality, consequences determine what is right and wrong.
Jason
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October 15, 2012 at 10:43 am
Allallt,
If I’m understanding your definitions correctly, I think we would largely agree. Moral values themselves are objective, but their application is relative to the circumstances/situation. The circumstance can determine which moral rule applies. This differs from moral relativism in that it holds that the moral rule truly exists in reality, and that the same moral rule applies to everyone in the exact same situation.
But if we do agree, I find your agreement with Harris bewildering.
As for “relativism,” I understand how you are using it, but this is not the way it is used in moral philosophy, and thus I do not use it in that way. Even if you are technically right, you are going to fight an uphill battle and be misunderstood by many.
Jason
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October 15, 2012 at 10:43 am
Jason W,
You wrote, “If it was a truth, and not relativistic, the situation would not matter. Objective, absolute truths do not rely on situations, only relativistic views do.” “Absolute” is the key here. As Allallt said, and as I agreed, morality may be objective without being absolute. Moral values are real, but when they apply depends on the circumstance. For example, is it wrong to cut someone’s chest open with a knife? It depends on the circumstance. If I’m a thug trying to harm you, then yes. But if I’m a doctor trying to save your life through heart surgery, then no. Moral actions depend on motives and circumstances, and thus are not “absolute.” This is vastly different from relativism in which case neither scenario is moral or immoral. Both actions are just valueless molecules in motion, and society just so happens to prefer one and not prefer the other.
Jason
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October 15, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Why would you say it is valueless? Why would something be valueless just because the time or situation may change it’s ethical point of view? It does not make the decision valueless just because there isn’t an absolute right or wrong. Situational ethics still apply, and there is still a value to the decision. As long as weight can be provided, and a logical deduction, it has value, enough value to form a scale of what is right and what is wrong.
So I’m guessing that there is a distinction between a moral absolutist and a moral realist? I was assuming you were a moral absolutist, in which case nothing is relative and no situation changes that. If you are not a moral absolutist, then I was approaching your belief wrong. I thought the Bible taught absolute, objective morals, without relativity.
What exactly is the difference between moral realist and moral relativist? And the difference between a moral realist and a moral absolutist?
Also, I don’t believe that morals are laws that supersede the universe, like the laws of physics. If humans weren’t around, gravity would still exist, and all the laws of physics would still be the same. If humans weren’t around, I doubt morality would still exist. Animals don’t have morals, and plants don’t have morals. It really doesn’t matter if an animal rapes it’s prey a thousand times before it eats it, because there are no morals to ground them. Only sentient beings, like ourselves, can come up with a way to view morals, therefore figuring out what is best deemed right and what is best deemed wrong. I have never considered morality as timeless as I do the laws of physics. I believe morality can be found inside the human brain, not laws outside of the universe.
I have a hard time believing all morals exist outside of space and time, and I have a hard time believing that there are no moral gray areas. There may be some things which seem objective, but there are way more that are definitely subjective moral views. Either everything has an absolute moral truth, or moral truths don’t exist. This is where I’m a little confused by your statement.
You said…”If you agree with me that some moral values exist, then you are a moral realist, not a moral relativist! Remember, a moral realist does not have to believe that humans can have perfect knowledge of the moral law (or any knowledge at all, for that matter). He only has to believe that there are moral truths that are objective features of reality.” OK, I’m not exactly understanding this. Are you saying there are SOME moral truths, or that everything has a moral truth? Do you believe that everything has an absolute morality or not? I thought in order for moral truths to exist, everything would have to have an absolute right or wrong. No gray areas, nothing subjective. Everything would have an absolute underlying morality. 2 +2 will always equal 4. It doesn’t matter if it’s added at 4 oclock on a Friday, or if one number is white and the other is black. If truths exist, everything has to have a truth. Truths are not subjective, they are absolute, everyone of them. There cannot be SOME moral truths.
I think moral foundations are defined by what we can logically, rationally, and reasonably deduce. We do the best we can to figure out what is best for us, best for others, and best for society. But we by no means know exactly everything that is right and wrong, and never will. I think that is because morality is defined by sentient beings trying to better the world around them.
I have a hard time understanding why you say ethics are valueless molecules in motion if they are not grounded in some kind of timeless moral truth. Whether or not it is timeless, is moot. I am reading a book right now called The Righteous Mind (Why good people are separated by politics and religion) by Jonathan Haidt. It explains situational ethics, ethics and morality as it has developed over time, why these views differ for different people, and many things we are discussing. It explains why we come to the conclusions we do, and why different religions, different affiliations, and different people, all seem to have differing points of view about morality. Please check out this book if you haven’t yet, it really explains a lot of my views.
We can come to a logical conclusion for each situation regardless of truths. As long as it can be logically deduced, why do we need the possibility of moral truths existing? Laws of physics and mathematics are different than morality. Gravity can be shown, explained, formulated, and broken down. So can any law of physics, or any mathematical problem. You can’t say the same for a supposed moral truth. For any moral truth, there can be a gray area. The same cannot be said for physics and mathematics. 2 + 2 will always equal 4, and can always be explained absolutely. Moral truths can never hold up to the same scrutiny.
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October 16, 2012 at 10:57 am
[…] a previous post I noted that while people may pay lip service to moral relativism, no one does, and no one can live […]
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October 18, 2012 at 3:38 pm
Jason W,
I do not prefer to speak of “moral absolutes” because I think it muddies the waters. But using Allalt’s terminology, I would be a moral realist but not a moral absolutist. Allalt would say that makes me a “moral relativist,” but as I told him, that is not the way that term is used in the literature. “Moral relativist” is used virtually interchangeably with “moral subjectivist” and “moral non-realist” to refer to those who do not believe there are any transcendent moral truths.
A moral relativist is someone who does not believe in the existence of transcendent moral values; rather, moral values are the products of human minds, social conventions, and/or biological evolution. As such, morals are relative to the individual or society. In contrast, a moral realist says moral values exist in a mind-independent way. These moral values are not relative to the person, but relative to the situation; i.e. which objective moral rule applies depends on the situation. But if the situation is the same, then the same moral rule applies for every person in that situation (whereas moral relativism would say different people can choose differently in the exact same circumstances).
If you think that morals would not exist if humans do not exist, then you are not a moral realist. It would be true that if humans did not exist no one would know these moral truths (in the same way no one would know physical truths), but if the moral values themselves would not exist in the absence of human minds, then they are not moral truths with an objective existence in the world. They are mind-dependent, and hence relative.
You wrote, “I have a hard time believing all morals exist outside of space and time, and I have a hard time believing that there are no moral gray areas.” There can be moral gray areas even if moral values are objective. What is gray is not the moral truth (ontology), but our imperfect knowledge of the moral realm or the difficulty we finite beings face trying to figure out which moral rules take precedent in any given situation in which two or more moral truths conflict (e.g. is it more important to tell the truth or to protect innocent human life from being unjustly killed?).
What may also be gray is the facts involved that would help us to make the right moral decision. To go back to my abortion example, all agree to the moral truth that it’s wrong to kill an innocent human being without proper justification, but a society could disagree on what constitutes a human being. Two hundred years ago, before we had the knowledge of embryology we have today, people might have a real disagreement over whether or not the unborn was a human being at certain stages of gestation. But what was gray was the facts involved, not the moral rule itself. I think this is at the heart of most moral disagreements. The facts are gray, not the moral rules to be applied.
You wrote, “Are you saying there are SOME moral truths, or that everything has a moral truth? Do you believe that everything has an absolute morality or not? I thought in order for moral truths to exist, everything would have to have an absolute right or wrong. No gray areas, nothing subjective. Everything would have an absolute underlying morality. 2 +2 will always equal 4. It doesn’t matter if it’s added at 4 oclock on a Friday, or if one number is white and the other is black. If truths exist, everything has to have a truth. Truths are not subjective, they are absolute, everyone of them. There cannot be SOME moral truths.” Remember the distinction between moral ontology and moral epistemology. One does not need to know every X in order for X to exist. For example, if I gave a 4th grader a list of 100 geometrical problems, s/he probably would not know what the truth was of the vast majority of the problems, and yet that would not mean there was no truth to those problems. Likewise, there can be a realm of moral truths whether we know them perfectly or not. Let’s say there are 100 moral truths. Even if we only knew 10 of them, it doesn’t mean the other 90 didn’t exist.
You wrote, “I think moral foundations are defined by what we can logically, rationally, and reasonably deduce. We do the best we can to figure out what is best for us, best for others, and best for society. But we by no means know exactly everything that is right and wrong, and never will. I think that is because morality is defined by sentient beings trying to better the world around them.” Morality is not something we arrive at logically. One cannot offer an inductive or deductive argument that proves rape to be wrong. That’s not the nature of morality, and that is not how we come to know morality. You also spoke of what is “best”. That is a judgment based on a standard. From whence comes the standard? If there are no transcendent moral truths, then the standard is a human invention, relative to the person or culture. So what may be best for you may not be best for someone else. And once again, we are left with relativism. Only if there are moral truths can there be a moral “best.”
You wrote, “I have a hard time understanding why you say ethics are valueless molecules in motion if they are not grounded in some kind of timeless moral truth.” I’m not sure what I wrote that you drew this from, but this is not what I believe. Ethics are not molecules. What I have said elsewhere is that one cannot derive moral truths from a purely naturalistic world. If all that exists is matter in motion, then there is no place for real moral values. Molecules are neither good nor evil; they are valueless. So unless God exists or some sort of platonic realm, there is no such thing as real moral values. There may be actions we choose to call “good” and others we choose to call “evil,” but these are sociological constructions with no basis in reality. They are pure fictions.
Jason
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October 18, 2012 at 5:21 pm
Good post Jason, I love your articulation. So we agree epistemologically ,but not necessarily ontologically. I disagree that we cannot be capable of moral knowledge without moral truths. I believe we are smart enough, and been around long enough as sentient beings, to know right and wrong. I believe it can be naturally explained, and has been explained, in many books, by many people. I do believe in a moral conscience, but cannot be sure if these are from evolution, God, or both. But I do believe a moral relativist still holds firm footing with their beliefs. Jonathan Haidt goes into great detail and explains very well how we can get our morals through experience, society and culture. I have found it to be a very good read.
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October 24, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Jason W,
And here I thought we were starting to agree more on the ontological question and less on the epistemological.
You say we can have moral knowledge without moral truths, but that doesn’t make any sense. How can you know something that is not real? You can invent moral rules, and then know what you have invented, but what you have invented are not truths.
Morality has nothing to do with intelligence. Very intelligent people can be moral monsters, and very ignorant people can be moral saints. Thinking that morality is a function of intelligence is like thinking numbers are a function of color. They have no relationship.
What can be naturally explained is how we came to adopt certain behaviors as being good, and others as bad. But that does nothing to show that those behaviors really are good or bad. Morality is reduced to a convention, a preference, or what’s needed for survival. But one thing it is not is truth.
And naturalistic theories cannot explain moral responsibility. While there may be some practical reasons people would want to do A over B, naturalism cannot provide any warrant for saying it is wrong to do B over A. So in the name of what ought I obey? There can be no moral “oughts” on naturalistic accounts.
Jason
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February 4, 2013 at 4:35 am
IS I THINK MORAL RELATIVISM MUST NOT ESPOUSED IN ALL SITUATIONS.THOUGH IT IS THE BEST MECHANISM FOR PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE ESPECIALLY IN MULTICULTURAL NATIONS,IT MAY DISRUPT THE SOCIAL STRUCTURE SINCE IT ALLOWS TOLERANCE OF BAD BEHAVIORS
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September 30, 2014 at 4:06 am
From the perspective of relativism, is gayism moral or immoral?
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September 30, 2014 at 8:51 am
Neither. It depends on the time, place, and culture. It depends on your upbringing and what you hold to be true according to your core beliefs developed over time from wherever you are from. In some places, homosexuality is repugnant and abhorred. In others, it is perfectly acceptable. If there is an absolute as to whether homosexuality is right or wrong, it cannot be proven, so it can only be judged according to a certain society’s view of homosexuality at that time. I believe that one cannot judge based on some unproven absolute, one can only judge relative to their standard, or their society’s standard.Their is no morally superior absolute, not one that can be shown anyway.
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September 30, 2014 at 9:32 am
This article falls on it’s face with unreal assumptions and false beliefs about relativism. Moral relativism does have ground for judgement, they just don’t pompously assume they have an absolute truth with which to judge others, as the moral absolutist does. But they do have standards to judge by, real and measurable standards, that of cultural standards, and societal standards. Not an unknown truth that cannot be proven, or shown in any way, that they try to judge others on. In my opinion, a relativist has more reason to judge others than an absolutist does. This article is written with bias and bigotry. To claim to not have a 100 percent certain truth, but a norm with which to try to decree some sort of order, works better than to try to enforce an unprovable claim with no basis with which to judge others by at all.
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