If we are honest with ourselves, all of us want the Bible to support our existing beliefs and practices. We want it to support the teachings of the religious tradition we were raised in, or are currently part of. We want it to affirm that which we think is morally right, and condemn that which we think is morally wrong. There is always a danger, then, that we will engage in hermeneutical and logical gymnastics to ensure that we can walk away from the Bible without having to change our beliefs and practices.
I often ask myself, Would I interpret this passage in this way if I had been raised in a different tradition? Would I think X is wrong or Y is right if I was Presbyterian rather than Pentecostal? Are my reasons for interpreting the Bible as I do good enough to rationally compel others to adopt my position, or just good enough to for me to feel justified in my present beliefs? Would I adopt my position if I were an outsider, listening to the same arguments? If not, why not?
While I fully understand the desire to avoid change and theological conflict with one’s religious community, truth should always be our first priority. If good hermeneutics and sound reason cause us to walk away from the Bible confirmed in our present beliefs, then great. But if good hermeneutics and sound reason require us to change our beliefs and/or practices, then so be it. Truth is more valuable than tradition.
Thinking to Believe 
January 31, 2013 at 12:05 pm
OMG, it makes me wonder where in the world people come up with words like hermeneutics, never encountered such a word but it is interesting how one’s methodology of interpreting words or text can be put in such a sequence to emphasis the truth of text; or at least, the trickery of language manipulation to render the interpretation to our bias agenda.
For example take the word “Presbyterian” used in your commentary: it is worth noting that with a little ingenious transposing of the letters(re-arranging the letters to make different spellings) one can use all the letters in the word Presbyterian to form some complimentary text and one could see the obvious proselytizing potential in lauding the “truth” of that particular faith faction. Don’t you think? So that:
PRESBYTERIAN:
When you rearrange the letters becomes:
BEST IN PRAYER
Or the truth of Atheism: when one removes belief one opens the mind thus:
THE EYES:
When you rearrange the letters:
THEY SEE
or
Numerology ideologs might exploit the value in numbers with:
ELEVEN PLUS TWO:
When you rearrange the letters:
TWELVE PLUS ONE
You see, the truth in those hermeneutics, is clear indeed!
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February 1, 2013 at 9:58 am
There are a lot of angles where we can tackle this topic. I can only say that the Bible needs to be properly read in its context and applied to where we live – Today.
I will have a hard time trying to spread the good news of the gospel if I somehow come across to my listeners that we must live like they did in 1st century Palestine.
I believe the way to avoid falling into this trap is to always keep the macro purpose of the scriptures in focus without getting bogged down into micro management of the scriptures. I know there are some passages which I simply cannot relate to or even understand. I don’t try to conform them in any way, rather, I try to find the principle if there is one and learn from it. If I can’t find any particular truth of principle then I dismiss it as an cultural artifact and move on.
One comment on the word “truth”. Although I totally agree that the truth should transform our minds and should guide our way. Often this word is used in such a way as to regulate “how” one should carry out a particular religious practice or how one should conduct their finances etc… Truth is a guiding principle and that is embodied in Jesus Christ. Truth is not a set of laws of do’s or don’ts. We need to be careful here because this is where the Word of God can be manipulated and lead people astray. I have seen this time and time again. Truth is supposed make people free and not chain them down.
Naz
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February 1, 2013 at 5:34 pm
“If we are honest” we will come and reason together (Isaiah 1:18) that the Bible was written for a specific people, in a different language, a long time ago and that “all of us want the Bible” to reveal a path to truth in this very confusing and dynamic troubled world where material things change (Romans 8:20) and spiritual/moral things should not (“be holy as I am Holy”). Perhaps that is why Jesus often spoke in parables so that the underling concepts/meaning would be practical, useful, and timeless. The Bible makes comment in Thessalonians that we are to: “test everything and hold on to that which is good”. Interesting, that truth is not what we are to hold on to! Then again that which is good should be truth (shouldn’t it?!). I am more and more convinced that Christians (and all folks for that matter) are doing this all wrong! Their method of obtaining a worldview is off (and everyone WILL/does have a worldview!) I admit that is a very arrogant statement, but allow me at least an attempt to offer examples for that statement.
It is not that the Bible is right or wrong, nor is it that science is right or wrong (if science is not always fine-tuning itself, adapting to new concepts and change then it is really not science…it’s dogma), and that too (of course) goes for philosophy. It is rather in how all three, work to garner from us (over the time of life) a relationship towards each other and too even material objects and abstract concepts and of course the relationship of the spirit that resides within each of us with the Spirit from which we were sent here into physical life. So perhaps “holding on to the good” and finding truth builds relationship(s)? The Bible (and dare I say God the Father, to include however you consider the Trinity) is really BIG into relationship(s)! In fact, if I (my opinion!) had to sum up the Bible in one word, that word would be: “relationship”.
We go about NOT wanting to learn anything once we leave the education system unless that learning will satisfy us in some manner of worldly activity (and it even then never seems to really…satisfy, even though it takes nearly a lifetime to realize this. Frankly, material things do not satisfy unless abstract things are first satisfied…and in this world, God is abstract! God is not limited to what is created, He is like the author of a book standing outside the plot and characters and timeline). We have way too big a brain to be just a Darwinist-evolutionary monkey with pants—we imagine, and look for patterns and symmetry, do complicated mathematics and think in abstract terms and have parked four ‘rovers’ on the moon (never mind mars). We are a conscious observer and moral agent knowing ‘right from wrong’ intuitively and immediately and labeling such an event as being unfair (as if we are appealing to some higher inborn status quo and cosmic law). We desire beauty, art, poetry, music, have a conscience, and at times will seek an apology, are sad and may cry yet we can also make joke (even in bad times) and smile through the pain often with friends sharing both joyful events and painful events, we adapt our environment attempting to make it better or to take it with us (like) to the moon or the depths of the oceans, conjure up black holes and make satellites to probe areas/places we cannot go…and then of course there is the biggy; love, whom some say they would die for. We seek fairness, perfection, and hate time, and want to trust others. Yet nothing here is fair, perfection does not exist, time is a trap that our spirit is forced to work in while it is bottled up in these earthsuits(bodies), and trust is often violated—it is as if this ‘life’ is not our home (home is where there is fairness and perfection and trust and no time…and our spirit is hard-wired to know this because it is created in the image of God…who of course is the author of fairness, perfection, trust and resides outside of the confines of time…entropy/decay; see Romans 8:20).
So how do we get a worldview (and everyone has one)? If you hold out your two arms, 180 degrees apart with palms up (like a traffic cop does to stop traffic)…one holds back (stops) philosophy and the other, stops science; leaving (open to flow) theology to infiltrate you and hence your worldview becomes theological; another situation is to hold back (learning) philosophy and theology and science will be your worldview; and the other…hold at bay theology and science and one will be a relativist or a nihilist or some other philosophical…isum. We need to put our arms down…we have no right to be in the center keeping information and knowledge away—we have a big brain just so that we CAN handle and figure these learning ‘curves’ (see what Jeremiah 33:3 says we are to do: “call on me and I will tell you great and unsearchable things…”). We need to let all learning come together and then we need to discern correctly and that must involve God seeing as how He is the source of all information (He is the intelligence behind all order…all information). We arrogantly say that we find information in the various sciences: formulas, symmetry, numbers, empirical prediction and moral laws, etc. Yet we only discover that which is already there (if we would use the brain we are allowed). God is not in the gaps; God is in the details! We are hard-wired with many concepts for proper existence (spiritually or materially) to include fairness, and perfection etc, but one interesting trait, is our insatiable curiosity. If our spirit is created in God’s image (gaining knowledge of fairness and perfection as an example) then does that mean God is curious? No, of course not! Question: Then why are we so curious (especially the children for they ask great/good questions)? ANS: When we left God’s presence (in this “Garden”) we broke our relationship with God in two ways: morally and in knowledge. God told Adam to name the animals and to steward the Earth (Garden), God did not say, “first you need to go to school and get an education.” We were hard-wired with this knowledge at a spiritual level…and our internal eternal spirit then lost (or it was damaged—confused and made convoluted nearly always making things more complicated than they really are) that knowledge base when we left the Garden and our spirit becomes frustrated and yearns to get the communications link repaired. Our education system is worldly driven, it gives the children (who ask great and pure questions but receive poor answers) the basics (which are necessary) but then it channels them into fitting into the world’s social and tax base system putting them in a rut and insisting that they no longer think but instead numb and dumb their brains with violent TV, lousy movies and stupid TV serial programs etc. We are to be, in-the-world but know we are not-of-the-world (that’s Biblical). C.S. Lewis made a comment something to the fact that: “If there exists in me a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy then most likely I was made for another world”. In Genesis, Ecclesiastes, and Psalms there are verses that state: from dust you can and to dust you will return and the spirit returns to Him who gave it. It seems very easy to conclude that we reside within these bodies and are travelers (in time and by material—frozen energy: E=MC^2) and that this is not our home. Science will not and cannot put any light on spiritual matters for science is not completely able to relate to non-empirical venues. Children ask great questions because they are not yet burnt-out by the worldly rut, yet they get poor answers from adults because those adults are burnt out by the ‘rut’…yet when those children grow up and become adults and can get the answers, they then no longer ask the questions; that is one reason why the Bible mentions that we should be as if children. It is almost like that verse in Romans where it speaks about: “that, which I do, I know I should not do but it is exactly what I know I should not do, that I, do do…wretchage man am I”, If that verse applies to moral issues then I see no reason why a similar meaning to that verse could not involve learning knowledge/wisdom. It would not be wrong even though it would be an addition to the Bible (which is controversial) but on the other-hand to only believe what is stated in the Bible means: no cars, no orange juice, electricity, airplanes, Twinkies, aaaah…etc etc. The Bible like I said is into relationships and science and philosophy and theology is definitely into relationships at all levels. We are not to commit intellectual suicide to know God’s love nor are we to be apathetic, indifferent, or lackadaisical about His creation. Why else do we have such mental abilities if not to seek our reason for being here and to be in relationship with our creator and his amazing creation? It is we who have screwed up and we who were kicked from the garden. God knew that we had such big abilities with our intellectual capacity…why do you think He said He place a Cherubim with a flaming sword by the tree of the knowledge of life? ANS: to keep us from messing up such knowledge and using it incorrectly. We will probably NEVER learn how to make life…and if we do play around with it too much will end up making some biological nightmare that will be able to destroy us like Kudzu messes up other plant life. Frankly, we need to be controlled (a bit); for being too free (to do anything we want) only means that ultimately we are lost and will would not be able to find our way home…even when God lights up the path (we will believe in the flying spaghetti monster before giving God any recognition).
So curiosity is a condition of our separation and causes us some frustration but can motivate us to use our mind and to not conform to the patterns of the world—the rut (Romans 12:2) but to be transformed. We change our mind via searching for truth in all input sources. No other Christian makes a non-Christian believe. We can only knock the dust off a ‘covered’ up curiosity, so that the light will recharge the ‘solar’ cells (perhaps that’s a poor analogy comparing ones curiosity to the operation of solar cells). We are responsible to use our mind correctly and when our mind is opened our hearts can then be softened and we can become spiritually concerned (rather than spiritually dis-concerned) then God can change ones heart. We then see that we are permanent spiritual beings residing within a temporary material body.
Think in peace and go with God.
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February 1, 2013 at 10:34 pm
Gordon:
Atheism says, Hey you just made that up. And religion says no, this is what we call theology.
What’s the difference between a Doctor of Medicine and a Doctor of Theology? One prescribes drugs and the other may as well be on drugs. A theologian is somebody who is an expert in the unknowable. And has all the qualifications to prove it. Yeah, a real specialist.
Your writing is so broadminded that one could go off in any tangent because most of what you write is like double sided tape in much the same way that proverbs says
“Proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
So one could take any position and claim rightly, “it’s in the bible”! So as I read I did not know which way you were leaning; whether you were a supernaturalist or an atheist. We sure can niggle a lot over words can’t we? Like “prove all things, hold fast that which is true or good or discreet or righteous or else…….
Similarly Romans endorses Atheism but no Christian would be quoting that scripture with atheism in mind, if they even accepted it which I have discovered, they all wiggle their way in and weave their way out using verses of scripture like the contra Proverbs to support their understanding of or tutorship from the preacher who himself was taught by any number of various factional mentors. You may have read it without giving it much thought:
Atheists, upon seeing the burning car with someone trapped inside are compelled to rush to the scene in an attempt to rescue the near death occupant from his fate. We grab him under the arms and pull with all our might amid strong resistance. We feel, we poke, we prod and at last reach the hot button that, when pressed, releases the seat belt and the occupant is pulled to safety. Religionists the occupants, belief systems the seatbelt. The hot button release? our words to save.
Consider this:
You have a right to wear the seatbelt, and the right to remain in the burning car and perish but NT Scripture supports Atheism and endorses it.
ROMANS 2:13-15 K J V
13(For not hearers of the law are justified, but doers of the law shall be justified.
When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness; and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when Good shall judge the secrets of men….” as they rush to save the occupants in the burning car.
The point is that God was created in man’s image, for all virtue, all concept awareness, all religion, all morality, all gods, derive from a person. The best idea to describe God is that God is a Caricature Concept of what is Good for man. Now we know what is Good (so basic as food when we hunger) so we give credit to that which is Good but that doesn’t satisfy that which is not good so we develop another God Caricature Concept which is the absence of Good and that becomes the Devil, the Demon, the Satan. God Good and God Anti Good.
Man invented two Gods, one to credit: OMG thank you is so natural and the one that brings misery and inspires thanklessness; in other words a God to Credit and a God to Debit. Of course we want the Good God to win and an old Legend sums this concept up succinctly:
CHEROKEE LEGEND:
CHIEF: A fight is going on inside every other person between two wolves. One is evil; he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good; he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
GRANDSON: Which wolf will win?
CHIEF: The one you feed.
And so we go and grow and progress and kill our gods on the altar of science as our knowledge of meteorology, say, helped us slay the Rain God. Now there are only a few left to slay and when we are a more civilized bunch we will kill them on the altar of science too, the time that is eventually coming when we can for once in the world let our humanity unite humans instead of behaving like reptiles toward one and other the world over.
How many are burning in the car of supernaturalism, extremism, radicalism, fundamentalism, religionisms? It is a sad commentary for society when a Pastor goes to Iran and tries proselytizing the people in that country and ends up getting 8 years in prison for the idiocy of his way; this clearly shows us the religious insanity of both sides the senseless spectrum of supernaturalism.
If you can use your reason you will understand that Man is Lord of all that he creates, including prophets, religion and divinity. There is nothing sacred but the sanctity of life of Man himself.
Blasphemy is one of the most ludicrous follies of religion. Blasphemy is the insidious stupidity of the religiously garbled mind with theological academia, meaningless and worse than merely useless.
Man is Lord and Master of religion, of prophets, of the supernatural, of the gods, of divinity of virtue and all things conceptualized in the mind’s imagination. If you think blasphemy has any legitimacy whatsoever, you are full of dandruff.
As the great man Jesus once said: “23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.”……. in other words, I rest my case.
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February 6, 2013 at 9:54 am
To LeonardoTheGreater, I don’t think I ever seen anyone oppose God as you do in your posts on this site. Wow !!
The question that I have is why are you posting on this site ?
I think I know the answer…….you sound like a person who has been hurt by religion/religious people and this is your way to justify yourself and protect yourself. I know how that is because I too have been hurt by so-called Christians whose piety was nothing but a sham and a disgrace.
However, it seems like you have some sort of admiration of Jesus based on your quote “As the great man Jesus once said”. No wonder really, as it’s very difficult to find something to say against Him. Jesus is the embodiment of what we as Christians believe about God. In fact, as it turns out, Jesus is actually God Himself in the form of a human being. For the sake of theology, Jesus must be God incarnate in order to satisfy the requirement of a “sinless” sacrifice for the sins of the world. I know you’re not big on sacrifices and such, but it is theologically correct and makes sense.
Look Leonardo, I would be the first to scream against religions and dogma’s that have brought pain and suffering to an already battered world. The presence of lies and liars doesn’t discount the genuine article. There would be no counterfeit money unless the real genuine currency existed !
Don’t give up on Jesus. Learn about Him and you will find your way………
Naz
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February 6, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Naz:
I began commenting here when I found an article linked to a posting on yahoo news where I comment regularly on current news stories one story was concerning gay marriage and the controversy about that particularly in religious circles who are THE group mainly opposed to homosexuality and of course they always credit God with the fact that the bible is the word of God so if the bible says gays should be killed because they are an abomination as in Leviticus; then, God says they should be killed and so on and so on goes the justification for religious insanity. Here is a brief intro paragraph from the article linked on yahoo news by jasondulle, the article I responded to, that has grown into my commentary on this site since that time: If the title itself doesn’t give it away, the Queen James Bible is a new “gay Bible” based on the King James Version, complete with a rainbow-styled cross on the cover.”
Now back to your response:
Sure I hated the hypocrisy of the church and the clergy and the christian workers since I was a child, I and Jesus are one in that regard. I learned first hand what they were truly like: we kids were from a poor neighborhood, if we had a name as a group I suppose, it might have been the slumdog kids.
None among us had a home life to speak of; in my case, my father was overseas after my conception and didn’t return until I was 4 years old, by then, a stranger who just happened to stumble in one day but I never met him, he never acknowledged the kids and we continued life as we were growing up. By the time us kids were 6/7 years old most of our regular days consisted of foraging for food around the street and places we associated with food, like the church where we had gone for the Garden Parties and annual fairs at the Catholic Church. I didn’t even know there existed other churches or other religions, I thought everybody was a catholic and the only time anyone went to church was for the fair and the garden party and bingo and special other events where they would have lots of food.
So it was on such a day that we slumdogs ventured to the Church to try and find some of that delicious food that was always so plentiful. Imagine our fright when the ladies(Christians no doubt) from the downstairs dining and kitchen below the Church ran out the door after us kids and scared the daylights out of us yelling at us: :Get out of here” and “go home before we call the truant officer”; (if you guessed we weren’t in school, you’d be right. But they should have known we were just hungry after all, shouldn’t they have known that much at least?
And so our journey continued to the wharves where the Stevedores unloaded the boats and loaded the trucks and again imagine our amazement when the Stevedores(sinners no doubt) knowing we were hungry tripped suddenly and hurled the entire Box of bananas at us kids where the box broke open and man did we kids feast our fill on bananas to our contentment. Suddenly I realized that the Christian shooed us away and the sinners fed us. Man what a revelation for a young mind to experience!
Moving on a few years was the first time I actually attended the inside of a church; I was 10/11 years and forced really to go to church every Sunday in the Catholic Reform school being placed there after a continued life of truancy. So I had nothing to do but to listen to the preaching of the sermon and the latin utterances of monodrone sounds like the hollow echoes bouncing off cave walls which meant nothing to me then or later when I practiced to be an altar boy. So I did not listen to the priest/minister/preacher, whatever he was I had little idea who he was or why he did what he did but I did have a Sunday Missal and in that missal were all the saying and teachings of Jesus, not things written about him but the words and message and parables and teachings and I understood everything he said; I didn’t have to ask anyone what he meant or why he said what he said, I understood everything as clearly as a crystal ball and he was speaking directly to my spirit within because we were of kin spirit. Since that day Jesus and I have been as one. So you might imagine how it makes me chuckle when I hear people saying they are praying for me and hope I will come to Jesus to be saved and you know what I mean surely, all the proselytizing you hear day after day from the pulpit to the parishioners, the regurgitators of clerical supernatural nonsense.(my definition)
So you see, I know Jesus and I see him clearly and differently than anyone else; Jesus was like my father, my mentor, my teacher and I know him thusly:
The life of Jesus covers the whole spectrum of human experience. The characters he encountered range from tyrants, murderers, bullies, thieves, jealous schemers, liars and assassins to noble kings, tender lovers, doting parents, roistering drunks, swaggering soldiers, philosophers, gravediggers and country bumpkins. How could one man, who lived all his life within a small area of the Middle East, have achieved such an encyclopedic knowledge of mankind?
The answer of course is by looking inside himself. In his own head and heart he found every possible trait of character and twist of emotion. His dialogue rings true because Jesus knew that he himself was Everyman. He had only to consult his own soul to imagine how any character would react in a given situation because he—-as a human being—- was also a microcosm of the whole human race.
Since each of us is a human being, each possesses within himself the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all. This is not just idle philosophizing, it’s a fact of key importance to your own personal life and to your understanding of Jesus as the Son of Man.
Jesus was a man who incarnated wisdom and compassion. Jesus was the man who threw me bananas when I was hungered. Jesus was my friend when I was downtrodden. Nobody can tell me anything about Jesus; I know him!
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February 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm
Reminds me of the Emergent Church method of dialogue-ing with the Scriptures. A very common trend these days. Instead of seeking to find out what the Scriptures means as presented, people seek to find out what Scriptures mean to them, and thus, create private interpretations.
Personally, I am glad for a sword-sharpening challenge. I don’t want to sit back and become theologically stagnate. I’d rather be convinced and convicted of and by TRUTH, and amend my doctrinal understanding, than to become some murky swamp full of eisegetical quicksand.
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