I realize this is not breaking news, but given the importance of this event, I still want to comment on it despite the fact that my hectic schedule (as of late) has prevented me from doing so until now.
Exodus International, the most well-known ministry for gay men and women, announced on June 19 that it was closing up shop under its current name, and reopening under a new name with a new focus and new mission. Just hours before that bombshell announcement, Exodus International president, Alan Chambers, issued an unexpected apology to those who his organization has hurt over the years (sexual misconduct, false expectations, etc.), as well as to the gay community in general for Exodus’ past teaching that one’s sexual orientation can change…among other things.
Contrary to some headlines and rumors, Exodus International has not moved to a position of “acceptance” of homosexuality. Chambers himself said he still believes “sexual expression is reserved for one man and one woman in marriage.” What Chambers no longer believes is that a homosexual orientation can be changed into a fully heterosexual orientation – or at least that it is so rare that one is better off not trying. Though he himself is married, he admits that he, and most others that have come through Exodus, continue to struggle with same-sex attraction: “99% of the people that I have met [at Exodus] continue to struggle with or have same-sex attractions. For the majority of people, those things don’t go away.” While this is a critically important point, and has huge ramifications for those who proclaim that every gay person can be healed of their “gayness,” it needs to be made clear that such an admission does not undermine the value or importance of gay ministries. There is no reason to adopt an all-or-nothing approach. While “gay-to-straight conversions” might be the exception rather than the norm, gay ministries are still needed to help those struggling with same-sex attraction to deal with their attractions, and the data is pretty clear that they are successful in helping many people diminish and/or better manage their same-sex attractions. Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence[1] that some people do change their sexual orientation. While it is important to set proper expectations for those seeking reparative therapy, the fact that the majority do not become fully heterosexual is no reason to abandon reparative therapy altogether. To do so is to abandon the small percentage that do experience genuine change, and to abandon an even larger percentage who experience diminished levels of same-sex attraction as a result.
What does victory look like?
Chambers has made a related point that I think is often missed by both gay and straight Christians alike: victory over homosexuality should not be measured in terms of changed desires, but changed behavior. Similarly, the goal of gay ministries should not necessarily be to make a gay person straight (i.e. experience opposite-sex attraction), but to help him/her submit their sexuality to Christ. In Chambers’ own words: “Christians in the body of Christ…have overemphasized complete resolution and complete change for this issue [same-sex attraction] but not for others … and I don’t think we’re telling anybody else with any other type of struggle that they have to … never be tempted in that area again in order to be a good Christian.” While overcoming same-sex attraction is a laudable goal, it is not the measure of success, nor the measure of being a good Christian. Virtuous behavior is the benchmark of Christian morality. Success is measured by maintaining our virtue despite being tempted to sin, not the absence of temptation to sin. As Robert Gagnon has written, “No commandment of God is predicated on the eradication of innate desires to do otherwise.” Many married men continue to be tempted to have sexual relations with women who are not their wives, and yet no one would consider them to be bad Christians merely for experiencing that temptation. What is morally significant is the fact that they do not act on these, arguably, natural impulses and desires. All of us are tempted to do evil in one area or another. What is important is that we resist that temptation; not that we cease to experience temptation. I see no reason why the goal post should be moved in the case of same-sex attraction.
Causes for concern
Despite these areas of agreement, there are also causes for concern. For example, Chambers has written: “I believe we’ve come to a time in the church when it’s time to lay our weapons down. We’ve fought the culture, and we’ve lost. But I think we’ve lost for a good reason.” What exactly does it mean to lay our weapons down? The culture has succeeded in convincing the majority of people that homosexuality is morally benign, so what does it mean for us to lay our weapons down? Does that mean that we stop proclaiming homosexuality to be a sin? It’s not clear. Indeed, the ambiguity of it all is a little disturbing.
There are other statements Chambers made in his apology that are equally troubling. For example, he writes, “I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.” Here, he seems to be denying a long-held and well-substantiated theory regarding one sociological origin of same-sex attraction. While I agree that we should not blame parents for causing same-sex attraction (as if it was something they intended to do), and while it is true that same-sex attraction is not always the result of the failings of one or both parents, the fact remains that there is good reason to think the actions of parents contribute to same-sex attraction in many cases. It does no good to deny this simply because some parents will feel guilty for the part they played. I also have to wonder if Chambers now thinks same-sex attraction is biological in nature, and that is why reparative therapy is pointless.
Chambers also wrote, “I am sorry that I, knowing some of you so well, failed to share publicly that the gay and lesbian people I know were every bit as capable of being amazing parents as the straight people that I know.” I have two concerns with this statement. The first is factual, while the second is moral. My first concern is that the data is pretty clear that children reared by same-sex couples do not fare as well as children raised by a mom and dad. Is Chambers denying these findings? If so, on what basis? On the basis that there are some exceptions to the rule?
My second concern is moral. Implicit in Chambers’ statement is an endorsement of same-sex relationships. How else could it be that gays and lesbians are raising children together if they are not in an ongoing relationship? Perhaps he only means to say that single gay and lesbian parents can be as good as single heterosexual parents. If so, then I would agree. But even then, we know children raised in single-parent homes do not fare as well as children raised in a stable, two parent home. The ideal remains a biological mother and father. That is the best environment for children to flourish. Given what he says next, however, it seems to me that he doesn’t have single gay or lesbian parents in mind.
Chambers goes on to say, “I am sorry that when I celebrated a person coming to Christ and surrendering their sexuality to Him that I callously celebrated the end of relationships that broke your heart. I am sorry that I have communicated that you and your families are less than me and mine.” If he had not written the second sentence, I might be able to agree with the first. Taken alone, his first statement has a lot of merit to it. Surely it must be difficult for someone to willingly break off a relationship with a person they love because they know the relationship is wrong (although this is not a uniquely homosexual experience; heterosexuals who come to Christ often have to make the same decision). While we can and should celebrate their decision to submit their desires to Christ’s will, we should also be considerate of the emotions they are experiencing as a result of that decision and offer our moral and emotional support. But when Chambers says he is sorry that he has communicated to gays that their families are less than his family, this seems to be a tacit endorsement of same-sex relationships. How can someone who claims to believe that “sexual expression is reserved for one man and one woman in marriage” not think that same-sex families are morally inferior to nuclear families? And if he has function rather than morality in mind, the same problem arises. Does he believe same-sex relationships function in the same way as heterosexual ones? If so, then why does God forbid same-sex relationships? While God values all human beings equally – whether gay or straight – it doesn’t seem to me that God sees both relationships as equal. Same-sex relationships are morally wrong and go against God’s created order, whereas opposite-sex relationships are morally right because they are in line with God’s created order and design for human sexuality.
The next chapter
While Exodus International is closing shop, they have opened up a new shop under a new name: Speak. Love. Their new organization can be found at http://wespeaklove.org. Their mission statement is “We serve in our pluralistic culture by hosting thoughtful and safe conversations about faith, gender, and sexuality; and partnering with others to establish trust, reduce fear, and inspire hope.” He told The Atlantic that the new organization “won’t have anything to do with the issue of ex-gay.” Given the fact that the ministry will involve people like retired homosexual bishop, Gene Robinson, and the pro-homosexual blogger, Rachel Held Evans, and given some of Chambers’ public statements as quoted above, one has to wonder what direction the new ministry is taking. Perhaps time will tell.
L.A. Times
Huffington Post
Christianity Today
Christian Post
Slate
[1] See James E. Phelan, Neil Whitehead, and Phillip M. Sutton, “What Research Shows: NARTH’s Response to the APA Claims on Homosexuality” in the Journal of Human Sexuality, Vol 1, 2009, available from http://www.scribd.com/doc/115507777/Journal-of-Human-Sexuality-Vol-1; Internet; accessed 22 August 2013. Greg Koukl and Alan Shlemon have a nice summary of the scientific data in “Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture,” Solid Ground, July/August 2013, pp 8-9; available from http://www.str.org/Media/Default/Publications/2013-07%20Enhanced%20Solid%20Ground-Nature%20or%20Nurture-1.pdf; Internet; accessed 10 August 2013.
August 22, 2013 at 1:53 pm
Hi Jason:
Good to hear from you albeit in some disagreement because of your insistence that behavior is the sin and not the temptation but in the case of gay their behavior, from where I sit, is no more reprehensible than the autistic child or the speech impediment of cleft palate.
“My first concern is that the data is pretty clear that children reared by same-sex couples do not fare as well as children raised by a mom and dad.” Source please.
Remember something and this is really important: Whenever you allude to “God says” or “God demands” or “God forbids”, what you are really saying is that “Man says, man demands, man forbids” and the man(men) who do all the saying and demanding and forbidding also claim to have their sayings and demanding and forbidding from who or from where; why, from God of course!
That’s the nature of religious indoctrination. They can’t prove their messenger status anymore than they can prove that God delegates them as his exclusive messengers to the people; otherwise, one might ask, why couldn’t God simply say, demand or forbid by talking directly to everybody in the same way all at once? Why the need for only a few special people to be God’s spokesmen?
Have you ever noticed that every generation of Christians want to count the number of ribs in a man and a woman in Anatomy class because of Genesis they learned in Sunday School? Or actually already “know” that men have one rib or one pair of ribs less than the female? I mean that IS THE INFLUENCE FROM THE YEAR DOT and that alone should tell you something about traditional brainwashing if nothing else. There’s a great story about that at this site from a professor in college: http://discovermagazine.com/1995/sep/darwinsrib561#.UhZ2DuD2yVg
Remember also that Truth is authority and not Authority (ancient/modern clergy), the truth.
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August 22, 2013 at 1:59 pm
An Addendum:
Atheists are the epitome of Biblical scripture that says “you must be born again.”
To be born again is to shrug off the shackles of ancient stoneage religion and come into modernity.
Remember, the traditions you claim to honour are so outmoded by the very essence of progress of civilization, we wonder why on earth you still carry on outlandish practices.
Today we understand disease and infectious disease; so we don’t go to Church or Mosque to get cleansed of demons. We go to the Doctor specializing in Neurology and Epilepsy!
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August 22, 2013 at 2:00 pm
Atheists are the epitome of Biblical scripture that says “you must be born again.”
To be born again is to shrug off the shackles of ancient stoneage religion and come into modernity.
Remember, the traditions you claim to honour are so outmoded by the very essence of progress of civilization, we wonder why on earth you still carry on these outlandish practices.
1. Today we understand disease and infectious disease; so we don’t go to Church or Mosque to get cleansed of demons.We go to the Doctor!
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August 22, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Atheists are the epitome of Biblical scripture that says “you must be born again.”
To be born again is to shrug off the shackles of ancient stoneage religion and come into modernity.
Remember, the traditions you claim to honour are so outmoded by the very essence of progress of civilization, we wonder why on earth you still carry on these outlandish practices.
Today we understand disease and infectious disease; so we don’t go to Church or Mosque to get cleansed of demons.We go to the Doctor! A specialist in Epilepsy and Neurology
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August 22, 2013 at 5:30 pm
Oh my Jason,
To say I was shocked by this article, is barely touching on my emotions, as my stomach sank, and my heart is breaking for Mr. Chambers. Brothers and sisters we must pray for this man, and all those who were helped by this ministry, that they don’t weaken in their hope, healing and faith. Also, that GODS will, will be done, in the new ministry “Speak, Love”, that GODS TRUTH will continue to be communicated. Amen….
Chambers, like many others, is succumbing to “the worlds” agenda. Why is he laying down his weapons, (for we are told to daily put on our armor and put out the fiery darts of our enemy), NOW IS THE TIME to stand firm? If GOD gave him that ministry, he should not retreat, this is only a “Reed/Red Sea” moment, and he should be showing in Whom he serves.
The homosexual agenda is proceeding along with huge accomplishments, even in “the church” (read “A Strong Delusion” by Joe Dallas). They have a precise plan, and next, watch as pediphiles claim their rights, then beastiality will become legal, and so on and so forth, until we WILL be living in the days of Noah. They have influenced and infiltrated our homes, schools, and even our President has helped them along.
Although, I stated I was shocked, because the name “Exodus” has been synonymous with getting help for those desiring to leave that lifestyle, I was not surprised. HaSatan is pulling out all the stops, as he knows his time is getting close to Judgement Day.
Those who have “ears to hear”, eyes to see and can “perceive” the times, know that GOD has warned (read The Harbinger by Rabbi Cohen), is warning and will soon have enough of our “self” impossed ways, thoughts, laws, etc.
We “the church” are the ones that HE is trying reach, it is always the believers that HE warns, so that they will cry out, humble themselves, rend their hearts, fast and pray for HIS leading and help, especially in these times. Is it or It is “the church” that appears to have a powerless GOD, for we are complacent, numb, buying into the ways of “the world”, in our dress, music, movies, games, you-name-it. The spirit may be willing in these times, but the flesh is weak.
It is the flesh calling the shots now, not “the church”. Rather, we should be looking to and pleasing, honoring, blessing The KING of the Universe, the Creator. “The world” has a “me” agenda…entertain me, serve me, give me, feed me…. We have been so blessed in America, because we put GOD foremost in our schools, patriotism, religion, laws, etc., but man has come along and changed things, the Sabbath(Saturday), the time (daylight savings), the week (no longer is Sunday the first day of the week), when we get pregnant (pills), have babies (abortion or invetro-fertilization or test tube), changed food, seeds, plants (genetically), etc. I am sure you can think of many more.
Yes, this was an article that lit my fire! Now in the “Jewish world” is the celebration of the Days of Awe, and they are entering into the feasts that have yet to be fulfilled by Christ, The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) and The Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot), if the trumpets blow, are you ready to go home, or are you prepared for Armeggadon (where no man will want to live it will be so bad)? Sukkot or The Feast of Tabernacles, will happen during the millennial reign, when Christ will rules and reign upon the earth.
Let us have oil (the WORD) in our lamps and be ready. If, in this new Jewish Year, HE calls us home, are you ready?? otherwise, we better hit our knees, cry out, humble ourselves, fast and pray, for we will NEVER have peace until The Prince of Peace returns. YHVH be with you, keep you and bless you, as the times are a changin’ .
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August 22, 2013 at 5:36 pm
Oops!! I forgot to check notify me of posts.
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August 22, 2013 at 8:41 pm
For me, this whole discussion is far beyond theoretical. At age 11 or 12, certain physiological responses elucidated my same-sex attraction. It caused a great deal of confusion being so young, and I dealt it with the best I knew how, which wasn’t all that great, since I became quite a promiscuous teenager.
In my early 20s I renewed my relationship with God and he has given me the strength to abstain from homosexual behavior since then. I, however, like many men we are talking about, remain attracted to men. Yet no matter what science and culture say about the issue, I remain fully convinced that men and women were made to function together sexually. Apart from my biblical view, the anatomy and physiology are too clear on the matter!
The problem for me is this: I can remember sitting in services watching drunks and serious drug users get instantaneously and miraculously healed from physical addictions (while millions are made on smoking cessation programs and the like, and these programs/products often fail). Is it coincidence that the very moment of conversion brings such powerful and lasting results?? I believe that our powerful God is just as capable of altering a broken psyche to establish sexual attractions in conformance to His divine will for humanity! Why, then, is it so rare? I don’t know, but while Exodus International has closed its doors, I have not yet closed the door of my heart to the influence of the Holy Spirit!! I have seen too much in my lifetime to be shaken from a belief that “with men this is impossible, but not with God, for with Him all things are possible.”
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August 22, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Jeremy, the difference between drug addiction, alcohol smoking is that these are addictions from use; this is totally different that the gestation anomaly that occurs which give you your sexual identity and that identity is not something acquired but something you are born with.
And let me tell you, your identity and attraction is not a sin to have nor is it a sin to act on what you were born with, despite the religious insanity of some ancient men who, at the same time, claimed that epilepsy was someone possessed by demons. And unfortunately this abomination OF RELIGION has carried over into modernity unto the same deceptive religious crowd who still can’t figure out common sense solutions so unique as to be classed by the unenlightened as miracles.
This, before they invented the wheel; this, before they discovered control of fire. These were anomalies not understood other than that they appeared to be out of norm. And the anomalies of the world from anomalies that make some people deaf, without the ability to speak, paraplegics and the disabled generally ostracized by normal folks who attributed all abnormalities as god striking man because of his sins or his father/mother’s sins. Those people, so inflexible that they could not think for themselves and so listened to the speculative nonsense of men who themselves did not understand the rain cycle and sacrificed their children to appease the gods in order to get bumper crops at the harvest. And then in self righteous glory laid the guilt and burden of anomalies at your feet so you would be full of self loathing and guilt and in denial of the real you, of who you were, all the days of your life. THOSE DAYS ARE OVER!
The world is becoming civilized and the civilizing of the world is waking people up to the sheer audacity of the religious to assume they are the spokespeople of the God Caricature Concept they invented before they knew that wheels went round and round. Religion is losing ground on every front as the world awakes to reality and science and reason.
I was addicted to smoking and one day when I became convicted that it was time to end the addiction I did; that was 25 years ago and I have never smoked since but it was no miracle; it was a concerted desire to end what was not a natural affliction but a self imposed addiction from using a substance that mankind in its stupidity still allows to exist in commerce and reaps tax money galore because of it and then spend oodles of money in campaigns to get you to stop the addicting behaviour they help promote by allowing its use. It is so hypocritical and that’s the way the world of religion operates as well.
Don’t be fooled; AND REMEMBER:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee, Jeremy!
Most humbly do I take my leave, my lord.
LEO
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August 22, 2013 at 9:36 pm
Deb:
You don’t need to pray for Mr Chambers, you need to pray to the inner conscience of your own spirit to be relieved from your own affliction as Mr Chambers was.
Mr Chambers is now free but you are still burdened with the uncivilized over-reaction of a common anomaly in the human race. Please get over it or pray to your inner spirit so you may see the light of reason.
Are you so reactive to someone who has autism because it’s not part of normal perception; say, of someone like yourself who I am sure believes you are so perfectly normal in your self righteous sinking stomach.
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August 22, 2013 at 11:58 pm
To Leo,
Did you note that in your last paragraph you said to thine own “self” be true. That is exactly the point I tried to make earlier. It is to GOD, and only GOD/Elohim, that we are to be true…The ONE and only TRUE GOD. We are to humble ourselves and submit to HIM alone.
Leo, I am sorry you might leave Jeremy, or us, because you might learn that love is found around the world by those of the religious persuasion, and we are far from perfect. Although our religion is the ceremony we choose, to practice our belief in Christ Jesus, we are NOT perfect, only HE is. We are to nurture and love “the world” directing them to HIM and then when theysurrender their all to HIM HE will direct and make there paths straight (no pun intended). Although, to many, we Christians or followers of Y’SHUA seem hateful and misguided, it is only because we believe we have won the lottery, and we want and desire others to be winners too. Why do we seem hateful, because we are “light” and “darkness” doesn’t like light, and until they have the Holy Spirit living inside them, they can’t understand The LIGHT” or absolute TRUTH.
Leo, if I may, you seem hurt and angry, and I couldn’t discern yet why. You do a great job of cloaking that hurt under words, attitudes and your searches in life. I hope and pray (and yes when I am done here I will pray for and about you) to the ONLY ONE I trust, my Heavenly ABBA. HE will advise me of how to pray for you.
I thank you for your reply, and I hope you find it in your heart/mind to read The WORD, daily, and let it’s love and words wash over you until you become a “light” for HIM. From one human to another, GO with YHVH.
Signed, the brainwashed child of GOD and lottery winner!
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August 23, 2013 at 5:38 am
I was really disappointed to read this news. I think there may be something more going on behind the scenes since there are pro-homosexual zealots who have no shame in making “threats”. Could that have something to do with it? (I don’t know.)
Something had to be said to littleleothetruthfairy:
Apparently, littleleothe[un]truthfairy doesn’t live on the same earth as the rest of us. His claim that the “world is becoming civilized and the civilizing of the world is waking people up to the sheer audacity of the religious” is as ridiculous as his entirely fictional narrative / mythology of human “progress” which followed it. (If mankind is doing anything, I think a good case could be made that it is regressing.) What he and others are doing is merely replacing one “religion” with another (humanism / materialism) and one “god” with another (self / individual). And I’m guessing he is doing it in the comfort of some Western nation and not in one of the relatively young socialist / communist government-run countries of the world, like China, where his fantasies about human progress, humanist utopias, and the supposed benefits of the lack of belief in God would quickly dissolve in the harsh light of reality. (Side note: Modern Chinese scholars and intellectuals are noticing a serious ethic and moral problem in their country. [Ref. China moral predicament]) If he’s not careful, maybe one day he will be on our (the Christian) side of the equation, where the world powers and the tides of change will designate him as obsolete…
So let me kindly suggest that if he were not already there, that the illustrious littleleothe[un]truthfairy would move to such a place and then report back to us of the virtues and joys of such a utopia.
And let’s not forget: To add insult to (self-)injury, he then proclaims “nor is it a sin to act on what you were born with”. I bet he’ll only defend such a claim if it relates to homosexual behavior. What of the murderer acting on their “inborn” desire to kill others? What about the thief acting on his “inborn” desire to have something that doesn’t belong to him?
Of course, Jason has done the commendable thing by ignoring such nonsense.
I’ll join him now.
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August 23, 2013 at 9:34 am
Deb;
Thank you for your reply.
I can assure you I have no hurt and no anger; at least, no more than Jesus did at the outrageous claims of Religion and the Ludicrous claims of Clergy who run religions worldwide. You may want to refresh your mind what Jesus had to say to those who would admonish or implore others to follow them by the lengthy but meaningless words of pretense of Clergy(and likewise their minions, proxies and proselytes they travel about seeking and when found make them twice as fit for hell as themselves.) in his famous “Woe to you” indictment in Mat:23
I understand what you are saying but it is nothing I haven’t heard a thousand times from preachers everywhere and with the same shallow effect of repetitive, insincere and useless chanting.
A couple of points and a question:
Point 1: “love is found around the world by those of the religious persuasion..”
Do you drive Deb? I know of few places where more christians and religious people tell more lies about the love they proclaim than behind the steering wheel, on the way to and from church notwithstanding their daily routines.
Point 2: “We are to nurture and love “the world” directing them to HIM(Jesus) and then when they surrender their all to HIM HE will direct and make there paths straight” and “until they have the Holy Spirit living inside them, they can’t understand The LIGHT” or absolute TRUTH.”
Do you know that in the New Testament scriptures there are verses that supports and endorses Atheism which run contrary to your ideas. In a brilliant epiphany of revelation, the writer of Romans 2:13-15
“13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of Good, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Atheists, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
In other words: Merely hearing God’s law is a waste of your time if you don’t do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God.
When outsiders who have never heard of religious law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that Good is not something alien, imposed on us from without by religion, but woven into the very fabric of our being. There is something deep within them that echoes Good’s yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to Good’s yes and no will become public knowledge on the day Good makes a final decision about every man and woman. The Message of Goodness that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences. Apparently your idea does not.
Take care and be careful of using hackneyed phrases and expressions from the ancients that are so boring in their repetition that they make dull the hearing of normal, good people who by practice have their senses trained up in the discernment of good and evil and choose the good as a matter of the conscience that lives within them.
And now the:
Question: Where does your Dear ABBA reside?
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August 23, 2013 at 10:18 am
My dear Joshua:
How can I not react to your warped idea that Christians are the enlightened ones in the world? The only non religious people in the world for the last ten thousand centuries were atheist too afraid of being killed to come out of the closet as the gays have been as well except in Muslim countries today where they are still in hiding for fear of their lives.
Jesus was the first very prominent atheist to step on religion’s toes and we know where that got him when they finally cornered him, captured him and in the mock trial of dictatorship and religious kangaroo court he met evil religion in condemnation and crucifixion. In more recent history the Catholic Pope, no less, put Galileo in mock trial for heresy and placed him under house arrest for the rest of his life, sparing him from the death penalty unless he recanted because he went against the dominant values of Christian society.
I am not comparing western secular, democratic values with China and other dictatorship countries; there are no comparable comparisons but remember those countries have been vastly influenced by secular democracies. And to claim that western societies are the result of Christian values is hardly anything to brag about when if you proclaimed yourself anything other than an active member of the religion in your society you had better watch out: one of the reasons America was born and became the melting pot of the world was the suffering from religious persecution and warring dictatorships all over the world. If you were religious fine, if you were not religious that was okay but not for a long while after. Religion is losing the battle on every front and it is diminishing.
And I know you side with communist Putin who has put a ban on all things homosexual; it’s like making a law against the disabled by not allowing them to hobble, crawl, crutch and wheelchair the streets demanding better treatment and fair access to public buildings. I disagree with Putin and I disagree with the IOC for not standing against Putin. The world needs to boycott the Olymics in Sochi 2013: Olympic Boycott Not Necessary, Russia Says. But indeed it is necessary because as important as sporting competition is, the human rights and dignity of humanity is at stake, no less.
The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play
The goal of Olympism is to place sport at the service of the harmonious development of humankind, with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity.
Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.
Do you Joshua believe that Gays should be discriminated against, should not be afforded human rights and human dignity and should constantly be hailed as sinners and evil degenerates as Jesus himself was proclaimed to be in his day by the self righteous Scribes and Pharisees; AKA, the Clergy? When they called Jesus a Gluttonous Drunk, a friend of sinners who hung out in the taverns with them celebrating a fishers catch?
Christians sure have a short memory if they think Jesus was only trying to catch the righteous to follow his example: Jesus’ legacy is one of attitude and disposition, graceful and genuine in compassion and kindness, always ready to forgive those willing to receive it; a man so full of common sense and sound judgment that the religious community were reviled by him and even more so because he made common sense to an audience brainwashed with the ideas of supernatural nonsense about the there and after instead of the here and now.
Best regards. You may see some light at the end of your tunnel. I have Hope for you that you will learn of Jesus one day if you let the spirit of the Father lead you to what the Son means in your personal life.
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August 23, 2013 at 10:24 am
Oh and Joshua:
The virtues and joys of utopia reside in the same place that Heaven resides, where the Kingdom is, where “guess who” lives within you, it is not in China or Russia or anywhere else on earth or away from earth:
“The Kingdom (of Utopia) is within you”. Do you know who said that famous phrase in Luke 17:21?
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August 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm
Leo, I will make this short, you asked me if I drive, well not much anymore, as I am flat on my back. This is an example of what “the world” is like; because I have a Jesus sticker on my vehicle I have had many “good” people in form me that I am number one to them, always with that middle finger, I laugh and blow them kisses and also send the ASL for “I Love You”. They laugh or do the nuts sign. I believe I have avoided many a confrontational situation (and no it’s not because I am a bad driver). Where do u live Leo? Blessings to you my “good” man.
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August 23, 2013 at 7:36 pm
Deb:
I think you are a good person and I have no doubt you have a love in your heart for the world at large.
However the thing you need to remember is that regardless of your love, your love can be directed toward religious activity that would make a mockery of love if you allow the clergy to use your love to their end. Consider this:
The CORPORATE RELIGIOUS Collective serves only ITSELF & has no real life of ITS OWN. ITS minions, proxies and proselytes, are like robots of Protocol without discretionary insight or common sense. “IT” has no innate capacity for moral or ethical action of independent volition & has no capacity to respond truthfully to the moral & ethical concerns of real human beings. To the RELIGIOUS COLLECTIVE, the people are viewed as inventory to be managed and cattle to be prodded.
This is no idle statement.
At least religious organizations do a lot of good work, you might say, especially in the third world. Surely you can’t knock that? So what are you telling me? If they weren’t religious, they wouldn’t be doing this work? It’s not really coming from their hearts? They’re just doing it because they’re following orders? Is that what you’re saying?
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August 24, 2013 at 1:26 am
Brother Jason thanks for your attention to this issue. Though as you said it is a little dated, it is important enough that we try to make sense out of it as best we can and provide biblical answers.
I pray that my response here will not intrude on our friendship as I love and respect you and your knowledge, and that has not changed.
I must say however that I find myself disagreeing with you on some of your comments, and that does surprise me. I will try to be brief.
You said:
“victory over homosexuality should not be measured in terms of changed desires, but changed behavior. Similarly, the goal of gay ministries should not necessarily be to make a gay person straight (i.e. experience opposite-sex attraction), but to help him/her submit their sexuality to Christ.”
“While overcoming same-sex attraction is a laudable goal, it is not the measure of success, nor the measure of being a good Christian.”
While it may not be the “measure” it is the height of success and being a good Christian, and I am surprised that you failed to address this point. The whole focus seems to be on the minimal and that is not what Christianity is all about. Our strive should always be perfection in maturity, though we will not reach perfection until our bodies are changed, we must always strive for it. That should never be viewed as an unfair or undesirable goal.
I would ask, why not both? Why limit it to behavior only and not desires as well? On what biblical grounds do you rest that point on? Why has the lessor good been elevated to the greatest goal? That concerns me and it seems to cater to those who have little or no desire to follow after holiness.
You said:
“Virtuous behavior is the benchmark of Christian morality. Success is measured by maintaining our virtue despite being tempted to sin, not the absence of temptation to sin.” You them quote Dr. Robert Gagnon.
You did not provide the reference to your Gagnon quote. While I usually agree with Dr. Gagnon as with you, I must disagree with you both on this point.
I noticed that in all that was said the word “lust” has not been mentioned, and I believe therein may lay the problem. You all are focused on the “temptation” rather than on the “Lust” and by doing so you seem to minimize the offence and therefore allow for greater leniency, but temptation is not the issue here in my opinion, the issue is lust. Is there not a difference between the two?
You said:
“Many married men continue to be tempted to have sexual relations with women who are not their wives, and yet no one would consider them to be bad Christians merely for experiencing that temptation.”
But I think here you equate “temptation” with “lust”. Joseph was not tempted to have sex with Potiphar’s wife because he did not lust after her. He had no desire to lay with her though she “tried” to tempt him. It is not the condition of having someone try to tempt us that is the problem, but the condition of lusting after someone, whether they are trying to tempt us or not. That is what we are dealing with here. And in such a situation a professing Christian should be considered a bad Christian if a Christian at all.
I agree that such people are to often overlooked as poor examples of Christians but that does not change the fact, only exposes the lack of biblical accountability in the churches.
You said:
“What is morally significant is the fact that they do not act on these, arguably, natural impulses and desires.”
Again you are not clear on the difference between lust and temptation. Attraction and desire are natural impulses as is hate and jealousy etc. But none of them are uncontrollable, they are driven by thought, not acting on them is not as morally significant as not having them towards inappropriate targets. I know very attractive women that I chose not to view lustfully and I have no struggle whatsoever with lusting after them. And I have kissed and hugged them in greetings many times. I chose not to dwell on their beauty to the point of desire and then lust. That is a choice.
You your following comment concerns me:
“All of us are tempted to do evil in one area or another. What is important is that we resist that temptation; not that we cease to experience temptation. ”
But there are different kinds of temptations and not all are evil. I argue that we must choose to be tempted for it to affect us. I think it might be helpful to differentiate between someone “attempting to tempt” and “being tempted”.
I very rarely experience temptation that actually tempts me but I often experience others attempting to tempt me. I think James 1:14-15 is significant here and to what I have said earlier.
You then said:
“ I see no reason why the goal post should be moved in the case of same-sex attraction.”
But I do, here you are dealing with sinful attractions as well as sinful actions, and both are clearly forbidden by God. Your knowledge of the scriptures makes it difficult for me to understand your point here. In Matthew 5:28, Jesus condemned the lustful look as committing the act of adultery in ones heart. For clarity I must ask whose goal post are we discussing- God’s or homosexuals?
You said:
“In Chambers’ own words: “Christians in the body of Christ…have overemphasized complete resolution and complete change for this issue [same-sex attraction] but not for others … and I don’t think we’re telling anybody else with any other type of struggle that they have to … never be tempted in that area again in order to be a good Christian.”
But that does not make it wrong or unbiblical to set such high goals, it only brings attention to the lack of being reasonable about accepting the lesser as an accomplishment. Thus, to refer to it as “overemphasized” I think is wrong. Yes, I also believe that such high standards should be applied to “other types of struggle”, that is what God instructs us to do, so why should we allow human compromise to lower the God standard to make us more comfortable in our sin?
(1 Corin.10:6, 13, Gal. 5:15-24, 6:1, 1 Thess.3:5, Heb. 2:18, Mk. 4:19, Rom 1:24,27, 6:12, 13:14,)
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August 24, 2013 at 8:14 am
Hello danmonk:
Forgive me please for replying to your commentary that’s directed to Jason but I did read it in earnest and I feel compelled to note just a couple of points of obvious peculiarity.
1. I find your use of the word “lust” rather stereotypical
and
2. Your reference to temptation as a choice, to be completely old school, out of sync with reality and really out of touch with reason.
And here’s why:
1. BEFORE Marriage lust(sex)=fornication; Sex without religious consent; The Delicious Apple
AFTER marriage lust(sex) morphs into love(sex); that is, Sex with religious consent; The Acceptable Apple.
Think of it this way. If you happen to be in a “desirable” state of sexual arousal, lust, and act to fulfill the desire of your design, before marriage it is called fornication; after marriage, it is called Love.
You see, it’s only love when it is acceptable to the society at large and the only way fornication is and was acceptable and differentiated between lust and love was if you married with the blessing of religion, colloquially called the Church.
So what have we learned today? Sexual arousal and lust fulfilled before marriage is fornication; Uh Uh, NOT OKAY.
BUT Lust fulfilled after marriage is Love achieved. Mmm Mmm, YES OKAY.
PSYCH 101…..The SIMPLICITY of Wisdom requires shedding cultural biases and religious sensitivities, to be seen; that is, to be understood.
Which leads me to the second point: What really is temptation?
2. Religions are obsessed with sex control;Muslims hide women in burka burlap to prevent the natural human design of vision of girls to excite the chemicals in men; Jews cut off the erogenous tissue of the foreskin to deny men true sexual pleasure(although I think there was also a question of IDing the ethnicity but that didn’t stop Islam from mimicking the object of their hatred) in the same way girls clitorises are mutilated to prevent female sexual pleasure; religions rail against sexuality but are forced to acknowledge the most powerful force on earth so they invented a license for sex called Marriage. Free our Nuclear Mushrooms Theotards!
This is how sexuality works, Psych 101. Man sees woman the woman and the mere vision strikes the eye and relays the vision to the brain which immediately begins a hormonal and chemical physiological reaction that increases blood flow, breathing that eventually turns into something called an erection. This physiological reaction is not something the normal design of the human male can control although partriarchal societies have been imposing various methods to do that very thing.
You believe that temptation is something you can control as far as sexuality is concerned but that is only if you are blind! Then other senses will be heightened to take over where vision has left off, sound of feminine voices, olfactory senses, a gentle nudge, a touch. You see, what religion likes to call temptations are sensual reactions to perceived stimulation. So in effect Jason is correct by saying that temptations must come but happy is the one who with discernment can choose the course of action to accommodate the moment. Enter religion dum da um dum…….The CONTROL Freaks
But religion is more than just a belief, religion wants to impose a universal morality which is why it has always attracted the kind of person who thinks other people’s private lives are their business. And giving respect to this mentality is exactly what’s got us into the mess that we’re in.
We’ve given religion ideas that are above its station and we persuaded it that it’s something it’s not. When the truth is that faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. It’s an act of will. It’s not a state of grace; it’s a state of choice. Because without evidence, you’ve got no reason to believe apart from your willingness to believe the tales of the ancients who tried every trick in the book to control sexuality. Muslims for example use the Burka burlap to cover the object of men’s sexual stimulation and try blocking the beautiful design of that object, the girl and you need to be together with the girl so together is the goal To-Get-Her, the goal, but to no avail does the burka succeed since many Muslim men have up to four wives and each wife bearing 4 to 8 children. Do the math.
That’s all danmonk. I hope you find something here challenging if not enlightenment. Amen the end.
P.S.
Some of the diehards on this thread will probably denounce my commentary as “off topic” at the very least with an unsung caveat that “off topic” will be sufficient to denounce my commentary rather than debate it; nevertheless I think any comment in the public platform is fair game for discourse, and you seem reasonably intelligent in your thoughts to Jason, so I hope you agree with that much at least.?
Regards
Leo
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August 24, 2013 at 8:59 pm
Jeremy, thanks so much for you comments.
You said:
“For me, this whole discussion is far beyond theoretical. At age 11 or 12, certain physiological responses elucidated my same-sex attraction.”
You are not clear here, what exactly are you referring to, something that happened to you physically or something physical that you started?
You said:
“Is it coincidence that the very moment of conversion brings such powerful and lasting results?? I believe that our powerful God is just as capable of altering a broken psyche to establish sexual attractions in conformance to His divine will for humanity! Why, then, is it so rare?”
That is a great question and one that should be explored in depth by good ministers. I am certain that God could do a clean sweep if He chose to, but there is something about such sex sins that He decides to place under His given power of choice to do or not do. I have found that the more I understood and believed God’s word I could actually make a quality choice not to desire that which is wrong in the eyes of God.
I think that many of us were so well trained to think that attraction and desire are outside of our ability to control, that such feelings have been allowed to take on a life of their own. But just as we were trained to think that we cannot control such thoughts and feelings, we can be taught to understand that we can. The real question is, do we actually want to be in control or do we want to struggle under the idea that it is impossible have control on that level. (And I am not here referring deceiving ourselves or pretending we have no desires when we do).
Sometimes the pleasure of attraction and the feeling of sex is so focused on that it is difficult to imagine having the ability not to think in those terms about forbidden sex.
We allow far to many contrary idea to govern our convictions and we sprinkle our God throughout at different levels, rather than truly placing God’s rightly divided word in the place of final authority in our hearts and minds.
You are on the right track and I believe as you build your knowledge of the rightly divided word of God and prayer life, you will find that your control over such desired is greater than you think. God will heal your mind and emotions and give you that powerful testimony.
I must say that I am impressed with your faith and desire to please God unapologetically. I think as you meditate on the authority that God has given you, you will find that hold on you will lesson and go away.
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August 24, 2013 at 10:21 pm
Leo, I would like to skip all the double talk and get right to the point. It would make for much more fruitful dialogue. Are you willing to talk straight without the fluff?
You said:
“I find your use of the word “lust” rather stereotypical”
But that does not refute my point, how do you define lust these days?
You said:
“Your reference to temptation as a choice, to be completely old school, out of sync with reality and really out of touch with reason.
And here’s why:”
Your point 1 conclusion is correct:
“So what have we learned today? Sexual arousal and lust fulfilled before marriage is fornication; Uh Uh, NOT OKAY. BUT Lust fulfilled after marriage is Love achieved. Mmm Mmm, YES OKAY.”
But you reject it because of your worldview. I would ask what is your authority for your following comments?
“PSYCH 101…..The SIMPLICITY of Wisdom requires shedding cultural biases and religious sensitivities, to be seen; that is, to be understood.”
On what basis do you place “PSYCH 101” above the Word of God? And when you remove the Jewsh-Christian biblical world view what do you have by way of sound psychology? What do you have as the governing factor for human existence?
You said:
“Which leads me to the second point: What really is temptation?”
You then proceed to inject Muslim and Jewish misdeeds on women and give me a “lesson” on again, on PSYCH 101 how sex works, including the following:
“You believe that temptation is something you can control as far as sexuality is concerned but that is only if you are blind! Then other senses will be heightened to take over where vision has left off, sound of feminine voices, olfactory senses, a gentle nudge, a touch. You see, what religion likes to call temptations are sensual reactions to perceived stimulation. So in effect Jason is correct by saying that temptations must come but happy is the one who with discernment can choose the course of action to accommodate the moment.”
No, I believe you are taking liberties with my use of “Temptation”
and my context. I was not discussing or denying the normal attraction that men have for women and visa versa, I was addressing the difference between temptation and lust from the Christian Biblical perspective. You have a different idea about both understandably. I am not addressing “religion” in general or any other particular religious group. So I will not defend what I do not agree with.
There is no need for name-calling, (“control freaks”) I would hope that you can discuss this without allowing your anti-Christian biases and convictions to provoke you to rudeness. It makes for better more productive dialogue.
You said:
“When the truth is that faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. It’s an act of will. It’s not a state of grace; it’s a state of choice. Because without evidence, you’ve got no reason to believe apart from your willingness to believe the tales of the ancients who tried every trick in the book to control sexuality.”
And there in lies the real issue with you, you think we Christians have no “evidence” and thus no intelligent reason to believe. I have had this conversation many times before and it has always ended the same. But I am willing to engage you since you have opened the door.
I would like to know what your religious convictions are, are you an atheist? If not how would you define yourself?
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August 25, 2013 at 2:41 am
Hello “news Christian view”:
Thanks for your response and comments; I appreciate them truly!
The “physiological responses” I was referring too are the typical things that happen (beneath the waist, in the heart and lungs, etc.) when a man sees someone that he is attracted too. For me these responses never occurred upon seeing scantily-clad females, but rather males in the locker room at school, on TV, or wherever else. I didn’t have any single traumatizing sexual experience (unless my mind did an amazing job of blocking it out). This is just the way it was.
It was so confusing to hear preachers say that we homosexuals “chose” to be this way, for I never made such a choice at all. Just like any heterosexual pubescent male, I “discovered” my sexually and sexual desire, and my attractions just happened to be toward those of the same gender. For years I have been fixated on answering the question, “Why am I gay?” My conservative Theological beliefs and observation of the scientific data will not allow me to say that i was born this way, but man, that is sure how it feels sometimes!
-Jeremy
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August 25, 2013 at 10:03 am
Thanks DanMonk for your reply:
Lust is defined by other people as far as I am concerned like most sins it is something you do that other people are offended by. That’s why, In the case of sexuality, to fulfill sexual desires before marriage is called lust by the “control freaks” ( I suppose I could have used “hypocrites”, “poisonous snakes”, “pretense”, “pigs” and “dogs”, the names Jesus called religious control freaks ) so I suppose you can blast Jesus for name calling too but I certainly would not. Sex before marriage is fornication and lust from the biblical perspective but sex after religious consent, marriage, is also the biblical perspective but biblical perspective is so often wrong because it is based on the supernatural and why many people who link Jesus with the supernatural are missing everything important about the real man and about themselves as a microcosom of the whole human race. The simplicity of being “Everyman”.
I am an atheist; my earliest hero was Jesus. I was with him in the desert; I was with him as he thought about the way the Popoffs and Benny Hinns abused the regular people to further their own aims when he knew that he had to be true to his own self or he could never be true to any other man and would never do what they did; I was with him when he was a young child romping in the streets with his village pals, when he went crying and clinging to his mother’s skirt for comfort after falling and scraping his knees and elbows; I was with him when he was 12 asking pointed questions of the scribes, pharisees, priests, ministers and pastors in the generation.
I believe that the supernatural does not exist except in religious circles and Hollywood and I believe that Jesus believed the same thing too. I believe that the Laws of Physics(of the Universe) are never suspended to accommodate ludicrous claims of miracles.
I believe that Jesus never performed a miracle and I believe that he cared for and demonstrated compassion for and helped heal the sick by, washing, cleansing and bandaging their wounds which such help for the downtrodden and rejects by the self righteous was quite unheard of and was to many, indeed miraculous. His common sense was the common bandaid that became the “miracles” noised around the country.
PS I don’t discriminate against Christians; I believe that every religion based on the supernatural is a form of mental illness that prevents people from traversing the mighty gulf between the ancient reptilian brain of fight or flight reflexes when they can’t discern between life and the wind blowing a lifeless twig across their path and the new evolutionary brain of rational, reasonable thought that provides insight with knowledge instead of belief.
Psych 101 is every bit more valid that you phraseology: “Word of God”. Psych 101 can be easily understood and demonstrated whereas the “Word of God”; AKA, the “Word of Men” can not because they link their caricature concept God to the supernatural that doesn’t exist. It does make great viewing on television when the pseudo scientists go exploring and recording in the dark of night with tech devices in haunted houses and cemeteries talking to the spirits of the paranormal trying to elicit a response but it’s all nonsense from an age before man knew about the rain cycle, before he invented the wheel, when he still sacrificed children to appease God to ensure bumper crops in harvest. Religion is a world full or superstition, supernatural and the paranormal.
I believe Christians and people of all religious beliefs are the downtrodden of the present, downtrodden by the ancient past of stoneagism and my mission is to communicate that only knowledge can set you free, belief never can!
You seem to think like most religionists that normal, natural design is something to be guilty about, to self loath about. It is clear the unhealthy aspects of a fabricated belief system has enslaved the world with its diseases of pity, guilt and revenge and where contempt has been taught for the primary instincts of life. When one is taught that there is something unclean in the precondition of life, sexuality, one denies the very foundations of life. That is the “biblical perspective” of which you speak with reverence?
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August 25, 2013 at 10:54 am
Jeremy:
You WERE born that way!
Sub Title: A fierce polemic against the inequalities in our society.
“HOMOSEX” – HOMOSEXUALITY are complete misnomers coined to denigrate a certain population. Common sense ought to convince you that sexual orientation is in the brain as much as a concert pianist’s phenomenal music ability exists in the brain and IS NOT in the fingers. The fingers are mere components of the mechanical process; where you play, where you compose, where you art-work, is in the brain.
There is no such behaviour as homosexuality; this does not exist. As I said before and I say it again sexual orientation is designed, formed and behaviour-oriented by what is between your ears(The Brain) not what’s between your legs ( the genitals).
And it is by way of illustration exactly the same as the following analogy concerning your ears and where you hear:
“Hearing, like sexual behaviour is a purely mechanical process.
I use my thoracic and abdominal muscles so that I can use my thoracic cavity as a bellows to produce a draft of air that will pass across my larynx and by tautening or slackening the vocal chords, I’ll produce vibrations that are projected into the atmosphere and caught by two cup shaped appendages which you have on the side of your head and they’re focused on the outer membrane called the eardrum that begins to vibrate in harmony with the vibrations that I’m producing in my throat and you see, attached to that outer membrane, the eardrum, there’s a little bone called the hammer that’s in contact with another little bone called the anvil and it begins to strike it, motivated by the eardrum in harmony with the vibrations that I’m producing in my throat and that little bone, the anvil, is in touch with another little bone called the stirrup, so called, because it’s like what you might use if you were riding a horse and that, in its turn, is in contact with an inner membrane that contains fluid and the vibrations are communicated through the fluid to the nerve end that then convey an impulse to a certain area of your brain; and then, you know exactly what I’m talking about. You see, it’s purely a mechanical process. You don’t hear anything with your ear, you know that, vibrations are simply communicated, where you hear is in the brain.”
Gender brain in the head; that’s where gender determinant is expressed; genitalia is merely the mechanical mechanism through which the expression is manifested exactly like the ear is the mechanical process where the ear offers the expressway to where the hearing takes place, in the brain.
Here’s how it works: But you will never hear a Preacher say this, they will deny it in order to make you full of self loathing if you let them. That’s religion’s mandate. Religion has left nothing untouched by its depravity, it has made of every value a disvalue, of every truth a lie, of every kind of integrity a vileness of soul. Religious beliefs, far from forming a true picture of some higher world, are self-deceptions that feed on visceral fears and cravings for your “improvement” and there you lay now, sick, miserable, filled with ill-will towards yourself, full of hatred for the impulses toward life, full of suspicion of all that was still strong and happy. In short, you have become “religious”.
If a man’s body has a male’s genitalia but the man’s brain has a female wired gender(and vice versa) and is attracted to another man, that is a heterosexual attraction even though you are taught to believe it is a homosexual attraction, it is not. So if that man with male genitalia and a female brain is attracted to a man with male genitalia and a male brain it will not work by choice because the man with the male brain will not accept the other man with male genital, for then it would be truly a homosexual attraction but when the male with the female brain is attracted to a male, and THAT man has a similar female brain, that works out because they are both attracted heterosexually even though both men have a female brain.
In this case both female brains are attracted to the male’s physical gender which is the expressway for sexual attraction in the brain.
I did not know this but found out sometime ago from a friend who had close contact with gays in her extended family, that, in what we think of as a homosexual (Gay) relationship, one member assumes the role of female behaviour and the other assumes the role of male behaviour but this role playing is heterosexual in nature. I had always assumed that two men were in a homosexual union and like yourself saw only the outside physical appearance without understand the brain gender function.
My position is not one that defends homosex behaviour, no; I do not agree with it nor have I ever practiced it or been attracted to a member of the same “apparent” sex but since learning the hetero nature of these relationships and brain gender, that knowledge changed my attitude. Now, I would never suggest to any gay person that their (apparent) gay relationship is not as genuine with the tools they are dealt, as my relationship with the tools I’ve been dealt and so on the gender basis of that understanding I believe the LGBT community has every right to the same human rights as everyone else, including marriage because love, tenderness, compassion, charity, kindness, consideration, sorrow, pain, joy and happiness is not in your cleft or between your legs but in your brain and if there is one thing I am certain of, is that where those emotes exist in the brain, is the same place that Jesus said the Kingdom was (luke 17:21 “within you”)and where the Father of that Kingdom resides (within you) is that same place in the brain, where human dignity lives.
That is my position and scientific data supports the brain gender and body gender roles can become mixed up in gestation and those are the cards we are dealt and the cards society have to deal with and accept the humanity of everyone and not rely on tradition of stoneagism and preachers who are still stuck in that realm of ancient myth.
SO UNLIKE CHRIST-LIKE.
Cleft lip (cheiloschisis) and cleft palate (palatoschisis), which can also occur together as cleft lip and palate, are variations of a type of clefting congenital deformity caused by abnormal facial development during gestation.
Substituting the term homosexuality for the clefting example; otherwise, known as “same sex” attraction, I submit that some bodies develop genitalia anomalies in gestation separately and differently from brain gender development in the same way as the cleft anomaly occurs in the human population in both sexes.
I further submit that a surgical operation to correct the gestation anomaly that reverses the physical genitalia anomaly (sex change) to conform with the brain gender (the real determinant gender seat) is every bit as valid and should be every bit as acceptable as an operation to repair the cleft anomaly.
Furthermore I submit that the Brain/Body anomaly while as unseemly perhaps as the cleft lip anomaly may be to the majority of society, is not an abomination by any means; certainly, not to those who understand this as an anomaly of biological function.
In addition this anomaly occurs in the general population from normal heterosexual activity more than general society cares to admit to, especially religious societies that have readily adopted, approved “The Word” and admonish others because of ancient religious tradition, tradition formulated by societies that did not understand gestation deficiencies any more than they understood the so called “demonic possession” (of epileptics) as a function of neurology anomalies.
Whether the gender anomaly is corrected by physical surgery or not is not the issue here entirely however; the main issue is that society in general and religious sects in particular must recognize the anomaly for what it is and accept it with understanding, especially in light of the preponderance of evidence that many parishioners, priests and preachers in all walks of religion are themselves afflicted by this anomaly and therefore (treating others as they want to be themselves treated) should be tolerant of their fellow humans out of compassion if not outright shame for ostracizing the LGBT Community amid the LGBT’s many pleas (prayers) to be accepted as normal human beings freckles and all.
Having a gender anomaly does not inevitably lead to a psychosocial problem. However, adolescents with gender anomalies are at an elevated risk for developing psychosocial problems especially those relating to self-concept, peer relationships and appearance. A gender anomaly may impact an individual’s self-esteem, social skills and behavior and contribute to the Closet Syndrome by the hate culture most responsible for alienating them, Religion.
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August 26, 2013 at 3:09 am
Jason: Blessings. Every point you made was well reasoned & Biblical except perhaps the part about only behavior being important. ———-I remember several years ago how when I first heard the Exodus founder in a debate & being disgusted with how compromising he was. I had the sense that he wanted others to see that his supposed personal sincerity coupled with cutting corners on the scripture supposedly trumped what the scripture actually said & would also win him favor with the homosexual / pro homosexual crowd. —————————————————Deb, Danmark & Jeremy: Blessings. I should have taken advice given to me but did not & attempted to have a point By point discussion with Leo the atheist fairy. I found as was hinted to me that he wont admit error on anything whatsoever & simply is not open to truth. Nonetheless we sometimes must make a case of defense whether or not the spewer is open or not.
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August 26, 2013 at 7:57 am
Sonny:
Methinks you mistakenly accept authority(clergy) for truth instead of the truth for authority.
LLTTF
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August 26, 2013 at 9:40 am
The winds of malignant narcissism are blowing again on this site….
Malignant narcissism has been described as “an extreme form of antisocial personality disorder combined with narcissistic elements that is manifested in a person who is pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation, and with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism”
Naz
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August 26, 2013 at 1:23 pm
“malignant narcissism”
That is a perfect pharisaical definition attributed to Jesus of Nazareth as they picked up stones to pelt him yet again but he slipped away through their fingers by cunning and craft as was his custom thereby deceiving his perplexed enemies. I am impressed. Your research is exemplary.
Keep studying and you’ll find many other examples of derogatory descriptives by the same self righteous neighbors who tried constantly to derail the truth as authority of Jesus whose missions were 1.) to care for, give comfort and hope and show compassion to the downtrodden, the poor who were rejected by typical clergy envy. And 2.) to testify and expose the evils of religion, the clergy leaders and the self righteous religious minions, proxies and proselytes whom the Scribes and Pharisees made twice as fit for hell as themselves.
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August 26, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Reply to post 15
Brother Jeremy, I so glad to receive your reply and I trust that you will not allow Mr. Leo to distract or discourage you.
You said:
“I didn’t have any single traumatizing sexual experience (unless my mind did an amazing job of blocking it out). This is just the way it was.”
This is why I asked my question, and I thank you for your frank answer. Since you are sure that nothing happened to you to cause your SSA, and you only remember being attracted to me and not females, there has to be something in your past that triggered this that you are not aware of. I will address that later.
You said:
“It was so confusing to hear preachers say that we homosexuals “chose” to be this way, for I never made such a choice at all. Just like any heterosexual pubescent male, I “discovered” my sexually and sexual desire, and my attractions just happened to be toward those of the same gender.”
I agree that most preachers are not as careful as they should be with their diagnosis. And many are guilty of spiritual malpractice. I know that many homosexuals and those suffering with SSA have had their conditions chosen for them by very bad people who had early access to them. And this can even occur without the victim being aware of it or even remembering what was done to them. For any preacher to make a blanket statement blaming the victim is sinful.
You said:
“For years I have been fixated on answering the question, “Why am I gay?” My conservative Theological beliefs and observation of the scientific data will not allow me to say that i was born this way, but man, that is sure how it feels sometimes!”
I understand what you are saying, I have had experiences in my early childhood that has me wondering now what would have happened had events not transpired to move me from situations that I found myself in. What I know now is that “sound prior knowledge” greatly helps to immunize against erroneous mental influences.
Please see my next post.
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August 26, 2013 at 2:18 pm
Brother Jeremy, yours is the kind of situation that is the most difficult to understand given your apparent correct spiritual acknowledgements. I have come up with only three possible causes, none of which I shall attempt to apply to you. But I present them for your consideration and others who are reading. Please note that although I make these points to explore the early cause, I still am convinced that the solution lies mainly in our knowledge, understanding and conviction of the authority we have been given by God to choose what we do and meditate on. This ability should be greater in believers who have the Holy Spirit to counter demonic attacks, than in the unsaved who have no such assistance.
I. There is an event or a series of events that took place in some early period of the life (somewhere between perhaps 3 and 12) that directly or primarily influenced toward same sex attraction (SSA), that was forgotten and the affect(s) still lingers due to “non” or “insufficient” early intervention by parents or parent figures to discourage or correct that affect by proper guidance and protection.
II. The event (s) were not forgotten, but for some reason are not recognized as that cause of direct or primary influence towards SSA, but still lingers due to “non” or “insufficient” early intervention by parents or parent figures to discourage or correct that affect by proper guidance and protection. The affects would still be the same.
III. *The event (s) that took place that directly influenced toward SSA are known but denied publically and or privately by the individual because they have come to enjoy the experience and affects. The affect still lingers due first to “non” or “insufficient” early intervention by parents or parent figures to discourage or correct that affect by proper guidance and protection and now much later, that denial and rejection of any attempted sufficient, efficient- corrective intervention or due to insufficient ineffective intervention.
*On my point three, for the sake of others reading this, I must say that I have come to notice that within the homosexual community there are individuals whose conditions vary from the most aggressive to the most passive and from the most out spoken defender of the Rightness of SSA to the most docile convictions of the wrongness of SSA. Included in these aggressive extremes are those who are extremely crafty and who dedicate their God given intellect to finding ways to influence other to see SSA as they do. This has often taken the form of carefully crafted misinformation and intimidation tactics against anyone who expresses disagreement with them. These are the type who are behind the success of the growing publics acceptance of homosexual marriage and the ultra-protection of homosexuals via new laws. Although intellectually savvy, they must rely heavily on dishonesty, deception, misinformation, intimidation and censorship.
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August 26, 2013 at 2:36 pm
Thank you for your reply Leo.
I will give a more detailed reply to your post 18 but for now I must ask you,
What is your source of authority as an atheist? By what standard do you determine good from evil, right from wrong, etc.?
Please be as brief as possible.
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August 26, 2013 at 4:44 pm
newsChristianview:
I respect your query and very much accept the challenge to answer with great delight the opportunity.
There are a few points that you completely miss the boat on here.
First of all my intention is not to “distract or discourage” Jeremy as you characterize my commentary but in fact quite the contrary to your comment which is PRECISELY to distract and discourage Jeremy’s dilemma.
I intend to give Jeremy hope and comfort and support in knowledge, not belief, that he does not have to hide in the Christian closet and deny his true identity. He is as normal as you and I as far as I am concerned, presuming of course that you and I are normal; and I’m not sure about you.
My commentary encourages Jeremy to accept the fact that he was indeed born that way despite the attempts of clerics to counter that fact which you obviously completely neglect to admit in your THREE scenarios and for not accepting the gestational, biological function and offering that condition to Jeremy as an alternative to choice that would suit his condition, I hold you responsible and negligent.
OMG nC, you are neglecting by convenient omission the exclusion of gestational, born with, part of the brain interpretation, biological function, rendering a brain gender to be opposite the body gender, a natural aspect of the human condition, etc. and so on and so forth and therefore discard it all together.
And you gave only reasons (excuses) that were either suppressed enjoyment, choice, or a combination of hidden experiences. Man, it is a pity you cannot offer anything to Jeremy but guilt and self loathing because in your scenarios, it is Jeremy’s fault whether conscious or unconscious or subconscious for being the shirt too short or shirt too long to be useful in a “normal” society.
Think of it this way. A manufacturer produces a shirt; the shirt is for all intents and purposes the greatest fabric, wrinkle free, esthetically catchy, professionally fashionable; the only problem is one arm is short and the one arm is long and the look in the wearing is bizarre! So who do you blame when the arms are variant lengths? Why, you don’t blame the creator of the shirt; the manufacturer, you blame the shirt. NOW Of course blaming the created instead of the creator lets you off the hook in a number of convenient ways.
So the Perfect Creator in this instance, makes an imperfect creature and then blames the imperfect creature for the imperfections of its design. It is so capricious on the face of it as to be ludicrous. But that’s the religious point of view. So they’ll lay all the blame on the creature imperfect, that was manufactured by the Perfect Creator. It’s laughable, the explanation thereof.
And to your second point to explain why or how good and evil can be discerned and by what standards; I refer you to the New Testament scriptures of your own bible for that answer without needing to offer any other source.
And yes I will be as brief as possible so as not to confound you with intellectual challenges you need to think using reason; suffice it to be enough to spin you for a loop by your own scriptures. Romans 2:13-15
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the law will be justified; 14 for when Atheists, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
In other words:
When Atheists who have never heard of the law called God’s, follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that Good is not something alien, imposed on us from without by religion, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes Good, yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to Goodness, will become public knowledge on the day righteousness makes the final decision about every man and woman. The Message from Good that I proclaim through Jesus, takes into account all these differences.
Does yours?
That’s as brief as I can be to make the points.
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August 26, 2013 at 4:57 pm
There is no such thing As SSA; there is such a thing called SASA; that is. the SAME APPARENT SEX ATTRACTION; there is no Same Sex Attraction; that is a misnomer.
Gender is not determined by what’s apparent between your legs but by what’s between your ears, in the brain. Like the ears themselves:
“Hearing, like sexual behaviour is a purely mechanical process”.
I use my thoracic and abdominal muscles so that I can use my thoracic cavity as a bellows to produce a draft of air that will pass across my larynx and by tautening or slackening the vocal chords, I’ll produce vibrations that are projected into the atmosphere and caught by two cup shaped appendages which you have on the side of your head and they’re focused on the outer membrane called the eardrum that begins to vibrate in harmony with the vibrations that I’m producing in my throat and you see, attached to that outer membrane, the eardrum, there’s a little bone called the hammer that’s in contact with another little bone called the anvil and it begins to strike it, motivated by the eardrum in harmony with the vibrations that I’m producing in my throat and that little bone, the anvil, is in touch with another little bone called the stirrup, so called, because it’s like what you might use if you were riding a horse and that, in its turn, is in contact with an inner membrane that contains fluid and the vibrations are communicated through the fluid to the nerve end that then convey an impulse to a certain area of your brain; and then, you know exactly what I’m talking about. You see, it’s purely a mechanical process. You don’t hear anything with your ear, you know that, vibrations are simply communicated, where you hear is in the brain.”
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August 26, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Reply to Post 26:
5 For neither his brethren believed in him.
6 Therefore Jesus saith to them, My time came not yet, but your time is evermore ready.
7 The world may not hate you, soothly it hateth me; for I bear witnessing thereof, that the works of it be evil.
8 Go ye up to this feast day, but I shall not go up to this feast day, for my time is not yet fulfilled [full-filled].
9 When he had said these things, he dwelt in Galilee.
10 And after that his brethren were gone up, then [and] he went up to the feast day, not openly, but as in private.
11 Therefore the Jews sought him in the feast day, and said, Where is he?
12 And much grumbling [And much grutching] was of him among the people. For some said, That he is good; and others said, Nay, but he deceiveth the people;
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August 27, 2013 at 6:23 am
Response to post 33 :
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Naz the Goat
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August 27, 2013 at 6:53 am
Mr. Leo, we can agree to disagree on who is actually distracting and discouraging my brother Jeremy. I will not allow you to make our dialogue about him.
You posted your opinions and you have confirmed your worldview, so I am
asking you to define your source of authority. You reference the Bible to answer my question about your source of authority and by what standard you determine moral right and wrong, good and evil? That is not logical,
if we are going to have an intelligent dialogue, you should at least attempt to show enough confidence in your world view so as to state its foundations without borrowing from your opponents source of authority.
You have several times mentioned “gestational”, “biological function” and accused me of not accepting it because I did not mention it. While I am aware of it, I do not share you conclusion that it determines ones gender. I would be interested in your authoritative sources for your argument. I would also like to know your source for claiming homosexuals are “born that way”, in light of the many already exposed false claims on that point. Many homosexual medical experts are moving away from that un-provable claim and I have read some homosexuals who even prudently acknowledge the counter productiveness of making such a claim for the homosexual activists cause. Therefore, I can only assume that you are of the atheist group who feels that any claim that seems to helps your cause is worth using even if not true.
Since I did not state that any person’s SSA is due to their own fault your point is moot. You are clearly not well versed on the subject of biblical doctrine and your atheist bias will not permit you to rationally discus it, so I find it interesting that you would attempt to address it and use it in your accusation.
You say that gender is determined by what is in the brain and not physical biology; would that apply to ethnicity, species, color as well? Your comment is not logical.
Again, I will not discuss Brother Jeremy with you, if you would like to discuss the state or situation that he and I are discussing I am happy to do so without referring to him as neither of us actually knows him or the details of his personal situation.
You have not given me an answer concerning my question about your source of authority for your view of morality based on your atheist conviction. Please do so without attempting to use the Bible.
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August 27, 2013 at 7:43 am
newsChristianview,
Sorry to see you’ve been dragged into a hopeless and futile argument with LTL. I speak form experience. Unfortunately if you continue you will be another causality. I would suggest to refrain for your own sanity.
He is the authority for his arguments, because in case you didn’t know, the father is within him.
I would suggest a more useful response :
“BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA”
Naz
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August 27, 2013 at 7:53 am
I am not agreeing to disagree, I will persuade you that you need to agree with Jesus, that’s all so I’ll just tell you about him.
Jeremy already made it abundantly clear, the details of his personal situation; maybe you did not read his last couple of posts.
I am of the impression from your comments that very little is logical to you unless it is based on a belief system that is itself based on supernaturalism, the expertise of Hollywood, psychics, prophets, preachers and snake-oil salesmen peddling their wares of miracle water in ketchup packages.
Right and wrong is based on sense perception, a bundle of experiences that include a series of wrong decisions, failures, right decisions, failures and successes. There is a wonderful organ in the body called brain, the seat of sensory perception and another wonderful ability called memory. There is a part wherein resides emotion, the soul of a person commonly called the heart in the bible.
I find the bible quite exciting to read and understand in relation to the soul, brain and memory of mankind’s historical, cultural and religious perspective over a long period of time.
It may not be logical to you but I often quote the bible in my commentaries especially since finding the main keys that unlock the understanding to the bible; idioms, common phraseology, miracles and meanings. When Jesus, who himself was an Atheist, stood against religion, the church and the clergy it was the bible in many cases that he used to describe what was wrong with the supernatural perspective that clergy and proselytes base their “logic” on; not that the same bible that he used was written differently but Jesus interpreted scriptures perfectly just as I do because I have the same keys that open knowledge to me as did he.
When the ordinary preachers got up to speak everyone slithered down into their seats and went off for a quiet doze, waking up just before the benediction and preferably just after the Offering but Jesus, when Jesus got up to speak, WTF, OMG, everyone sat on the edge of his seat wondering what AMAZING thing he’s say next, not like the ordinary preachers who put people to sleep in their meaningless monotone of driveling, droning dogma. ‘Hail ah lujah brother can I have an amen to that?”
There is a spirit that resides in the human brain of which the culmination of all the experiences and emotions, sensory perceptions and reptilian fears, awe and wonder are housed. In its entirety the culminating force of this spirit is the Guide that Jesus so often referred to as the Father, not the supernatural god created by every generation since the year dot, but the true guide of the human experience which today few Christians in this day and age understand having been brainwashed by thousands of years of supernatural nonsense, none of which has any real life meaning but is entertaining as perhaps an animated cartoon movie or a science fiction work of imagination.
WHAT’S GOOD ABOUT RELIGION?
We must remember that religion CAN be a great source of humor as well as great tragedy, guilt, self-loathing, fear, misery, cruelty and pain. And one could argue that anyone who gets their morals from some ancient text might as well get their personality from a micro chip and I find it hard to argue with that point of view.
BUt here now for you I present the REAL JESUS, someone I believe you have never met or known or understood. What you glean is what you glean.
» Left Brain:
I am a scientist. A mathematician. I love the familiar. I categorize. I am accurate. Linear. Analytical. Strategic. I am practical. Always in control. A masters of words and language. Realistic. I calculate equations and play with numbers. I am order. I am logic. I know exactly who I am.
» Right Brain:
I am creativity. A free spirit. I am passion. Yearning. Sensuality. I am the sound of roaring laughter. I am taste. The feeling of sand beneath bare feet. I am movement. Vivid colors. I am the urge to paint on empty canvas. I am boundless imagination. Art. Poetry. I sense. I feel. I am everything I wanted to be
The life of Jesus covers the whole spectrum of human experience. The characters he encountered range from tyrants, murderers, bullies, thieves, jealous schemers, liars and assassins to noble kings, tender lovers, doting parents, roistering drunks, swaggering soldiers, philosophers, gravediggers and country bumpkins. How could one man, who lived all his life within a small area of the Middle East, have achieved such an encyclopedic knowledge of mankind?
The answer of course is by looking inside himself. In his own head and heart he found every possible trait of character and twist of emotion. His dialogue rings true because Jesus knew that he himself was Everyman. He had only to consult his own soul to imagine how any character would react in a given situation because he—-as a human being—- was also a microcosm of the whole human race.
Since each of us is a human being, each possesses within himself the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all. This is not just idle philosophizing, it’s a fact of key importance to your own personal life and to your understanding of Jesus, the Son of Man not the supernatural.
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August 27, 2013 at 8:07 am
Reply to Post 36.
And the admitted goat bleeps his Baaawaaaaaa’s again for stiff necked goats refuse to come to the Son of Man, in his day and the Father in him thereby has no residence.
“When the Son of Man is in his day, all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, putting sheep to his right and goats to his left.”
And when he had closed the commentary, he posted it and the eyes of all men in the thread were beholding into him.
The sorting has begun:
And he said to them:
“For in this day, this scripture is fulfilled in your reading.”
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August 27, 2013 at 8:43 am
One more time……….drum roll please…………..
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Naz the Goat
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August 27, 2013 at 9:08 am
newsChristianview:
While we are on the topic of “authority” tell me please:
Where did Jesus get his authority? from heaven or from humans?
llttf
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August 27, 2013 at 9:10 am
Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. He shall make of him a casualty and his very sanity he shall lose.
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August 27, 2013 at 9:17 am
newsChristianview:
When I was younger I traveled the world looking for the truth, and proof of existence of god. I spoke to priests, rabbis, ministers, pastors, holy men and scholars of many places. I have seen the marker of the lost garden, beheld sacred mountains, holy lands revered houses of whoreship, read the scrolls and scriptures and read their translations. What I discovered would not make most religious people happy: in that the Muslim, Christian and Judaist religions all have a common ancestor; it was Abraham.
These three religions are all stems of Abraham’s sons. And the followers of the stems are killing each other. I decided that if this is how people honour their God then I wanted no part of it. I have carried this with me all my life. It has also made me resentful and untrusting, an atheist and a skeptic of the clergy. I was born with a beautiful spirit but experience with people, who have no idea or no care for the consequences of their actions, have insulated and calloused it. I AM WISDOM; I AM WONDER FULL; I AM SORROW.
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August 28, 2013 at 10:23 am
Mr. Leo, I don’t know if your statement on post #42 is you or if you just posted it as a reference to how you generally feel about religion. If so, I get your aversion to religion, I happen to share much of your dislike and distrust of religion. However, in order for us to have an intelligent and engaging dialogue I need to establish your point of view concerning your authority. If you are interested in such a dialogue we can avoid much confusion if we are direct and courteous.
You said:
“While we are on the topic of “authority” tell me please:
Where did Jesus get his authority? from [sic] heaven or from humans?”
The answer is from “heaven”, but it is not appropriate for you to ask a question in response to a question, unless you are making a relevant point. Jesus used this method in Matthew 21:23-27.
Please tell me what your source of authority is for determining morality, truth, right and wrong etc.
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August 29, 2013 at 6:35 pm
The guy bloviates thousands of words, but is unable to give a simple & direct answer as to where his authority comes from. That in itself constitutes the only solid answer yet offered. Thank You News Christianview.
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August 29, 2013 at 10:37 pm
Mr newsChristianview:
Thank you, you have answered your own question. My authority is from the same source from where Jesus received his authority.
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September 6, 2013 at 7:02 am
Littleeotheruthfarey, your reply (post 45) is not possible. You are making irrational comments and you are not willing to answer simple questions directly and logically. I am detecting instability in you from your manner of communication. You seem to be as was stated by Sonny, unwilling or unable to think logically. You will not reply to my key questions with any rational response and you are posting long nonsense posts with no attempt at rational. What is the point in communicating with the likes of you?
Your comments are incoherent at some points like the relationship between second and third paragraph of you post 8 where you overlap and mix the thinking of people “before the wheel” with people in modern times. And confuse epilepsy with demon possession. You attack the stupidity of religion as if it is synonymous with true Biblical Christianity. You make countless accusation and claims without providing any real source for your warped convictions other than to claim that the Bible, Jesus and heaven are your source of authority.
It is apparent that you are aware of the illogic of atheism and so you must latch on to biblical texts to help your strange view sound sensible. But you fail there too. And your adding and changing words of the Bible text and ignoring the full context does not help your case.
Your approach and the execution of your attempt to explain why you are correct in your convictions is strange indeed.
While I agree with Sonny that you are not open to truth (or logic it seems), the one benefit of your posts is that they provide great evidence of just how consequential being a bad example of a Christian can be and at the same time how consequential spiritual ignorance can be. When people like you see poor examples of Christians you justify your rebellion against God and His truth, and when you in your rebellion go about to establish your own truth apart from the God of the Bible(even while trying to use the Bible), you become irrational and strange.
Truth be told, while you may indeed confuse and mislead some who may be willing to take hold of your non-wisdom, you will not escape accountability for your deeds.
Since you have ignored many of my comments and questions and have given long answers that were not rational to a few, I will no longer bother trying to have an intelligent dialogue with you.
I will however, put your strange comments to good use when I endeavor to teach other how atheist tend to depend on the irrational, illogical and the confusing while borrowing from our Christian worldview whenever convenient.
I would suggest that Jason consider, blocking you from this thread as your contribution here is far from edifying.
I will be praying for you.
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September 6, 2013 at 8:02 am
Jason, after rereading over my post 17 I noticed a few places where I seemed to state my point a bit more forceful than I intended. While my points are sure, I did not mean to sound so pushy. So please forgive any statement that may seem pushy as it was not my intention. You know that I love and respect you and would never think of being disrespectful towards you. I have an idea of how difficult it must be for you to work a full time job, deal with a family (and young child) and still keep a blog like this going.
I commend you on all accomplishments.
Reply when you can.
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September 6, 2013 at 10:19 am
Not only is post 45 possible; it is a fact but of course because you have only belief that was formulated by ancient people from stonageism you still perpetuate the supernatural hoax they invented BEFORE THEY INVENTED THE WHEEL.
If you cannot understand that, it is because your are incapable of understanding the simplicity of the English language.
You have no light in you that’s why you cannot understand anything Jesus said without linking it to the ludicrous suspension of the Laws of Physics that the supernatural minded can only do when following nonsensical belief systems.
Hear what Jesus said of the same criticisms against him as you have against me and see the parallels:
The Jews then said, “That clinches it. We were right all along when we ….. said you were crazy—demon-possessed!”
Jesus said, “I’m not crazy. I simply honor my Father, while you dishonor me. I am not trying to get anything for myself. God intends something gloriously grand here and is making the decisions that will bring it about. I say this with absolute confidence.
You can try to censor my comments; it is the religious way BUT Christians have a biblical duty to evangelise and spread the faith. This was once backed up with harsh punishment for heathens and apostates, but thankfully those days are over. (Except in Islamic countries) Spreading the good word remains a worthy way for the faithful to spend their time, though. If Christianity is allowed to convert the heathens, I think it only fair that the atheists are given a chance to fight their corner.
This need not be a bad thing for the Church. Having seen, chatted to, and even socialised with several evangelists, I believe faith is stronger for being challenged. If believers don’t hear contradictory views, they have little reason to truly consider what they hold dear.
Christianity has almost everything going its way – culture and art for the last two millennia have been subject to its influence. It is in the home, it permeates society, and it recruits young. You can try to keep the flock faithful by silencing critics – or, failing that, petitioning the faithful to boycott their works. Alternatively, you can hone your own arguments, rally your evangelists, and spread the good word: and let your rivals do the same.
If you can’t take the heat get out of the Religious Kitchen.
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September 6, 2013 at 5:58 pm
My oh my, this has really been a controversial topic. The WORD says we are not to waste our time with frivolous arguments, so I have one question for Leo. Who do you say CHRIST is?
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September 7, 2013 at 12:20 am
Deb:
You asked me a week ago or longer to communicate off the site and I gave you the parameters to do so. You chose not to accept. But you had your chance.
Now you are asking me a question.
I choose not to respond to anyone so insincere. Sorry. Have a nice eternity.
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September 8, 2013 at 6:28 am
LEO, I would like to have that chance to dialogue with you off site. Would you grant me that chance? I fine your line of reasoning wrong but interesting and I would like to pursue a dialogue. You can contact me at apostoliclifemin@yahoo.com
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September 8, 2013 at 11:15 am
DanMonk:
Yes, I will accept your request with the same reply I gave to Deb:
“I am not in the habit of giving out my email however there is a way we can chat off this forum. I have a channel page at the following link. You can reach me there to chat.”
At the bottom right of the image “MY SPIRIT WILL LINK TO YOUR SPIRIT” which is also a search title you can search to find my channel on the Youtube website, click on the “Youtube” link at the bottom right hand side; it will take you to one of my channel page videos. You may comment on the video there (Max 500 character spaces limit) and if you are not familiar to I will show you how to send me a Private Email(PM) which limit is significantly higher than 500 characters.
Thanks
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September 8, 2013 at 11:27 am
Dan:
When you reply to my comment on YouTube I will be notified and will reply to you at that time.
Then let the battle of the wolves in the Cherokee Legend begin:
The Real Jesus of Leo or the Fake Jesus of Clergy.
CHEROKEE LEGEND:
CHIEF: A fight is going on inside every other person between two wolves. One is evil; he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good; he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
GRANDSON: Which wolf will win?
CHIEF: The one you feed.
Regards
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September 9, 2013 at 5:33 am
This comment is late, but wanted to say that the article was very good and interesting – especially as I had only heard some random fiskings of the apology that were not very illuminating! Although I do rather think DanMonk had a point…
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September 9, 2013 at 10:13 pm
Mr. Leo, your post 37 reply to my post 35 was not sufficient. You failed to answer 4 of my points/questions:
1. State your foundation without using the Bible.
2. How does gestational, biological function DETERMINE ones gender and what is your source?
3. What is your source for proof that homosexuals are born that way?
4. What is your source for claiming that gender is determined by the brain and does the same apply to ethnicity, species and color as well?
You have also failed to acknowledge your error as per my correcting you concerning my comments about SSA, you continue to claim the Bible and Jesus as your authority which is not possible or logical when holding an atheist perspective, and you have given a poor reply to my stated unwillingness to discuss Jeremy with you rather than the subject itself without referring to him.
I did read all of his posts but that is between him and myself to discuss not you and me. I have offered to discuss the subject matter with you without mentioning his name, why is that not sufficient?
Your third sentence is unclear, why would you assume that my view of the logical and supernatural depends on Hollywood, psychics and snake-oil salesmen? Notice how you mix truth with error? Prophet and preachers would be correct only if referring to the biblical personalities and not modern people. So you are either confused or you think you are being clever.
You said that “wright of wrong are based on sense perception…”, what you have described there is the process by which humans evaluate but you have not explained the source of authority.
In your eighth sentence you claim to have perfect understanding of the Bible after having found the key that unlocks it’s understanding but your key does not seen to serve you well.
You said that Jesus was an atheist, what passage of scripture do you draw that conclusion from? What book or version of the Bible are you using? Just how have you applied the key to get that interpretation?
In your sentence 13, on what do you base your rejection of the supernatural?
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September 9, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Mr. Leo, concerning your post 48 reply to me:
Concerning your sentence three:
I don’t believe that everything Jesus said was linked to the suspension of the laws of physics so your comment makes no sense. You have not even explored what my actual beliefs are yet. Your presumption with out careful evaluation is not logical. I don’t contend with your right to explain your views but I do have a problem with your irrational comments and your unwillingness to defend them even when challenged.
I did ask you to get straight to the point and not write unnecessary fillers that take up unnecessary time. Your apparent inability to keep it simple is telling. Why do you feel that you have to write so much to say something so simple?
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September 9, 2013 at 11:31 pm
Mr news Christian view.
Just because you keep repeating over and over again..”You are not logical” sounds like a religious chant.
1, You do not set the parameters for my foundation, I decide, not you. However Jesus was an atheist and was born as such as all human beings are.; that is, without a belief in god.
2. Cleft lip (cheiloschisis) and cleft palate (palatoschisis), which can also occur together as cleft lip and palate, are variations of a type of clefting congenital deformity caused by abnormal facial development during gestation.
Substituting the term homosexuality for the clefting example; otherwise, known as “same sex” attraction, I submit that some bodies develop genitalia anomalies in gestation separately and differently from brain gender development in the same way as the cleft anomaly occurs in the human population in both sexes.
I further submit that a surgical operation to correct the gestation anomaly that reverses the physical genitalia anomaly (sex change) to conform with the brain gender (the real determinant gender seat) is every bit as valid and should be every bit as acceptable as an operation to repair the cleft anomaly.
Furthermore I submit that the Brain/Body anomaly while as unseemly perhaps as the cleft lip anomaly may be to the majority of society, is not an abomination by any means; certainly, not to those who understand this as an anomaly of biological function.
In addition this anomaly occurs in the general population from normal heterosexual activity more than general society cares to admit to, especially religious societies that have readily adopted, approved “The Word” and admonish others because of ancient religious tradition, tradition formulated by societies that did not understand gestation deficiencies any more than they understood the so called “demonic possession” (of epileptics) as a function of neurology anomalies.
Whether the gender anomaly is corrected by physical surgery or not is not the issue here entirely however; the main issue is that society in general and religious sects in particular must recognize the anomaly for what it is and accept it with understanding, especially in light of the preponderance of evidence
Many parishioners, priests and preachers in all walks of religious life are themselves afflicted by this anomaly and therefore (treating others as they want to be themselves treated) should be tolerant of their fellow humans out of compassion if not outright shame for ostracizing the LGBT Community amid the LGBT’s many pleas (prayers) to be accepted as normal human beings freckles and all.
Having a gender anomaly does not inevitably lead to a psychosocial problem. However, adolescents with gender anomalies are at an elevated risk for developing psychosocial problems especially those relating to self-concept, peer relationships and appearance. A gender anomaly may impact an individual’s self-esteem, social skills and behavior and contribute to the Closet Syndrome by the hate culture most responsible for alienating them, Religion.
3. A priori, deductive reasoning and basic common sense.
1471404777*-
|7890–0987666\
`BNCleft lip (cheiloschisis) and cleft palate (palatoschisis), which can also occur together as cleft lip and palate, are variations of a type of clefting congenital deformity caused by abnormal facial development during gestation.
Substituting the term homosexuality for the clefting example; otherwise, known as “same sex” attraction, I submit that some bodies develop genitalia anomalies in gestation separately and differently from brain gender development in the same way as the cleft anomaly occurs in the human population in both sexes.
I further submit that a surgical operation to correct the gestation anomaly that reverses the physical genitalia anomaly (sex change) to conform with the brain gender (the real determinant gender seat) is every bit as valid and should be every bit as acceptable as an operation to repair the cleft anomaly.
Furthermore I submit that the Brain/Body anomaly while as unseemly perhaps as the cleft lip anomaly may be to the majority of society, is not an abomination by any means; certainly, not to those who understand this as an anomaly of biological function.
In addition this anomaly occurs in the general population from normal heterosexual activity more than general society cares to admit to, especially religious societies that have readily adopted, approved “The Word” and admonish others because of ancient religious tradition, tradition formulated by societies that did not understand gestation deficiencies any more than they understood the so called “demonic possession” (of epileptics) as a function of neurology anomalies.
Whether the gender anomaly is corrected by physical surgery or not is not the issue here entirely however; the main issue is that society in general and religious sects in particular must recognize the anomaly for what it is and accept it with understanding, especially in light of the preponderance of evidence
Many parishioners, priests and preachers in all walks of religious life are themselves afflicted by this anomaly and therefore (treating others as they want to be themselves treated) should be tolerant of their fellow humans out of compassion if not outright shame for ostracizing the LGBT Community amid the LGBT’s many pleas (prayers) to be accepted as normal human beings freckles and all.
Having a gender anomaly does not inevitably lead to a psychosocial problem. However, adolescents with gender anomalies are at an elevated risk for developing psychosocial problems especially those relating to self-concept, peer relationships and appearance. A gender anomaly may impact an individual’s self-esteem, social skills and behavior and contribute to the Closet Syndrome by the hate culture most responsible for alienating them, Religion.
4. THIS QUESTION DOESN’T MAKE SENSE: If the brain determines ethnicity, color, species? I did not say that the brain determines its gender; I said that gender is determined in the brain but anomalies are determined by genetic factors:
Atheists follow true Laws. Laws of Humanity, Laws of the Universe, Laws of Goodness. Sanctity of Life. These are not Religious Commandments but Universal Laws of Instinct, Innate Goodness of a people who by practice have their sense trained up in the discernment of good and evil. We do not accept that blowing up and slandering your fellow man follows Universal Laws but is the Desire of Ego, the Madness of Patriarchal Hierarchy and the Dream of Death.
Jesus may have been a Jew by birth but he was an Atheist by choice; that’s why they tried to kill him. He did not try to “fix” religion because religion was as unfixable then_ as it is unfixable today, the entire religious Laws were corrupted because the Status Quo did not understand how to practice the Law. The punitive Mosaic Law of Revenge, eye for an eye, was not fixable; it was replaced by its correct fulfillment by Jesus, Universal Laws: Forgiveness, Compassion and Love.
Jesus the atheist, hated religion and all things clergy: hypocrisy, pretense, devouring widow’s property, lengthy show of prayers, rituals ,greetings, high seats, supernatural, white washing tombs, decorating graves. Gods are myths. Jesus never believed in the supernatural gods created by men; Jesus accepted and referred to what God, God whom?
God as The Father residing within; AKA, the Self Witness, The Guiding Spirit of the human Experience abiding within and through such things as the brain in harmony with memory of people who by practice have their sense trained up in the discernment of good and evil and enough common sense to choose the good. Lk 17:20 Jesus speaking: “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Religious institutions have no life of their own, it’s the people who are virtuous, good and from whom all morals(and religion, unfortunately) derive, religious factions can only attempt to claim good people as members to try and bolster their institution, religion has always done that, always claimed the good, the better, the best and the brightest as their own to portray their own agenda in a good light and promote their own sect of religious, dogmatic idiocy.
Tell me what part of Religion, Church, Clergy, Rituals, Jesus loved! Or was a member of? NONE! Jesus was an atheist and the religious wingnuts of his day sought to imprison him, throw him over cliffs, stone him, whip him, beat him, mock him and crucify him, which is no different than religious wingnuts do today to atheists and gays alike, especially in Muslim countries, Supernatural god myth followers do it with words today, online.
Most religious regurgitating minions, proxies and proselytes think that Jesus was a Christian. So Lolable. If Jesus was around today he would be the first to tell the hypocrite Giglio Preachers to pack their robes and vacate the seat they purport to sanctify and never take the name of Jesus in vain again!
I know I cannot convince anyone through logic or reason because most minds are made by indoctrination by the values of the society they are born into, too dogmatic to be easily persuaded to see another point of view but I have studied the Way all my life and Jesus since I was 12 years old. Jesus is none of the things said of him in churches by preachers, pastors, priests and popes.
I know and understand Jesus and while he may have been a person at one time who walked the earth, his legacy is one of attitude and disposition, graceful and genuine in compassion and kindness, always ready to forgive those willing to receive it; a man full of common sense and sound judgment, not for his own ego but from the recognition of the Father within, not the supernatural gods created by charlatans, magicians, popoffs and snake oil salesmen selling miracle water in ketchup packages.
It is amazing to no small degree how so few people understand the nature of “soul”; in particular, Christians who seem only able to glean their daily information from the bible that was, itself, conceived and written in antiquity. There are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves, about who to kill and why. There’s nothing about electricity, there’s nothing about DNA, there’s nothing about infectious disease, about the principles of infectious disease.
“In your sentence 13, on what do you base your rejection of the supernatural?”
Why common sense of course!. You can believe in Leprechauns, tooth fairies, spirits that can’t make it home and so roam the earth looking for places to haunt but that’s no difference than the religious sages of yesterday trying to exorcise demons from those suffering from another anomaly birthed in gestation, epilepsy. Yu can pray all day and all night and your prayers are useless to remove so called demons that don’t exist.
Tell me what your source is for believing in supernatural nonsense; give me one source from scripture that supports retardate belief in the supernatural?
I know that no matter what I say you will find something amiss because you are indoctrinated by religiosity Nothing that Jesus ever said, did or was had anything whatsoever to do with the suspension of the Laws of Physics, had nothing to do with the supernatural; you just can’t accept Jesus as a real man with common sense and so you are taught and maintain that Jesus was a hocus pocus, now you see him, now you don’t, kind of person. Tell me one thing Jesus did that was supernatural, just one thing.
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September 9, 2013 at 11:35 pm
news christian view:
Please disregard a double entry in the previous post regarding the cleft lip/palate.
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September 9, 2013 at 11:44 pm
newschristianviews.
If your words mean anything then why is it not logical to take what you say as proof of your views? I very carefully evaluate your words; words are the conduit into the treasure in your heart.
A reptile operates on the supernatural because in that brain it has yet to evolve to the higher rational brain in order to put wind together with leaf blowing across the forest floor so it freezes and readies itself for fight or flight. Humans, who have been unable to evolve beyond the reptile brain because religious dogma and deception keeps them in thrall through myth, magic and miracles operate in much the same way and for those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
Of course you want me to write what you want me to write but I am lead by the spirit and not you I’m afraid.
You have no source; you have no authority; you may have a piece of cloth around your neck but that’s the extent of your authority.
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September 18, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Mr. Leo, this is my reply to your post 57.
You opened by stating my accusation that you are not logical “sounds like a religious chant”.
But I made my point and with few words, you have repeated several points with far more word than I and you are wrong, so I would say your comments sound like religious rants.
As for your point 1, I am not attempting to set the parameters for your foundation; I am trying to establish your foundation and its source, yet you have not provided one consistent with your atheist claim. Also, as you have repeatedly stated that Jesus was an atheist, I have asked you to prove that by His comments and you have failed to do so. Your inability or unwillingness to interpret the Bible in context and indeed your apparent need to utilize it in order to defend your atheist worldview is quite telling and clearly contradictory.
As to your point 2, you again have used so much space to say so little and in all that unnecessary use of words you have ignored the most important point. You do not know enough about the human brain or the human mind to establish your stated argument. You state your assumptions as if they were fact and that is not wise or honest. Secondly, your comparison of Cleft lip/palate anomaly to a supposed brain/ body anomaly is illogical since they concern two very different areas. How can you possibly compare what actually is going on in the mind which you have absolutely no way of really knowing, with a physical, visible anomaly? Are you so desperate to defend the indefensible that you must pretend to have knowledge that you cannot possibly have?
If you have any knowledge at all about human nature you should know that people are capable of the most dishonest, and self-delusional claims. And that one’s desire to do things that are wrong is often accompanied by their attempt to justify it before others. However, there is no “scientific” method to know what is really in the mind of a person making such claims. Therefore you are relying on faith, belief and the claims of homosexuals to make your argument, and you are foolishly calling it science.
You say that we must recognize the gender anomaly for what it is and accept it with understanding in light of the preponderance of evidence, but you have not stated any “evidence” only assumption and speculation. I would ask how to you determine where to draw the line when an adult decides that they are born with an anomaly that makes them desire to have sexual relations with children or animals. What do you say to the person who says they have an anomaly that drives them to kill others or to steals and rob others or to lie or to abuse others? Can you accept that as sufficient evidence and support them in their goal to practice their desires without discrimination and objection? If not your refusal will indeed impact their “self-esteem”, “self-concept” etc., would it not?
And if you argue that the difference is in the harm that results to others, then you will have to define “harm” and to what extent a thing has to occur before it is considered harm. You are apparently not aware of the “harm” that the practicing homosexual causes to themselves and others. You are not interested it seems, in the research done by the Family Research Institute and others exposing homosexuality, the homosexual agenda and the serious “harm” done to homosexuals and society by their practices.
Concerning your point 4, my question still stands, if gender is truly determined in the brain and can legitimately be contrary to the physical appearance, why can’t species re-identification be legitimately permitted? If a man thinks he is really a dog, why don’t we allow him to live that way, why do we put him in a mental institution? If a woman or man thinks they were born loving young children sexually, why should that be a crime? If someone feels that they were born with the need to kill, harm others, steal, rob, etc., why would their claims not be accepted as normal and laws be passed for them to do so freely? What would the scientific bases be for discrimination against them or rejecting their claim? On what foundational-moral bases would that discrimination be placed?
You said that atheists follow true laws, where does those “laws” come from? If there is no supernatural God, Why is your view of laws, correct, good or right or any better than someone else who disagree with you?
You said that Jesus hated all things clergy, where does He state that? How does his exposing false religion and hypocrisy translate to hating “all” things clergy and the supernatural especially in light of the fact that he founded the Christian Church and the “clergy”?
Your claim is not only baseless, but it is clear that you are not interested in trying to be accurate.
You quote Bible verses without referencing them and the ones you reference you apply incorrectly because you ignore the context.
What actual text, do base your doctrine about God on?
Much of your comments have nothing to do with the topic of this thread so you force-connect it to people who believe in God today.
You claim you have studied the way all your life since age 12 but that is not demonstrated by your comments here. What did you actually study and who were your teachers that caused you to develop such irrational views?
You said, “Jesus is none of the things said of him in churches by preachers, pastors, priests and popes”.
You then said “His legacy is one of….genuine ..compassion, kindness and sound judgment.
All of the types of clergy you listed have said these things about Jesus, so you have stated a clear falsehood. That is how casually you make statements without caring about their accuracy.
You said THERE IS NOTHING about electricity, DNA, infectious disease, the principles of infection in the Bible. But the Bible speaks of “lightning” is that not electricity? The Bible speaks of “leprosy” is that not and infectious disease? In Hebrews it says that the things which are seen are not made of things which do appear, that indicated the genetic levels (DNA). The importance of the washing of hands for disinfecting is mentioned in the OT which addresses the principle of infection, so you are not as Bible savvy as you think you are.
You say that you base your rejection of the supernatural on common sense, but common sense is hardly the bases to hang your doctrine of God on. What seemed to be “common sense” has often been wrong in the past. What is your evidence that there is no supernatural God?
You say that demon possession is nothing more that epilepsy, but what epileptic have you seen speaking clearly and having a conversation while having an epileptic fit, what epileptic have you seen break chains? What version of the Bible are you getting your information from?
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September 18, 2013 at 4:14 pm
Leo you said:
“words are the conduit into the treasure in your heart.”
Then you should understand why I have said I believe that you are unstable, your words are not logical and your renting not rational. What could easily be said with a few well-placed words, you feel the need to say with volumes in such a forum as this and then you make strange comments like this:
“A reptile operates on the supernatural because in that brain it has yet to evolve to the higher rational brain in order to put wind together with leaf blowing across the forest floor so it freezes and readies itself for fight or flight. Humans, who have been unable to evolve beyond the reptile brain because religious dogma and deception keeps them in thrall through myth, magic and miracles operate in much the same way and for those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”
This is apparently your conviction about evolution which is the gospel of atheism. What evidence do you have that humans evolved from lower animals? And is this not really why you so readily support homosexuality?
Why pretend that you were persuaded by some encounter with a friend of homosexuals? The truth is that you have no bases for morality in your atheism and therefore homosexuality is acceptable.
You said:
“Of course you want me to write what you want me to write but I am lead by the spirit and not you I’m afraid.”
Indeed you are, but what kind of spirit is the question. Certainly not one from God, your communication betrays you. I am not trying to control what you write; I am just insisting that you be logical and not foolish. You make boast of great insight and knowledge but you waist our time with rhetoric and long posts that go on and on but say little of truth or importance.
You said:
“You have no source; you have no authority; you may have a piece of cloth
around your neck but that’s the extent of your authority.”
But my authority my source is the great word of God that you claim to have the key to understand, yet you can’t even read simple verses in context. You claim to be an atheist yet you must use my Bible, My Jesus, My concept of morality to even argue your strange points.
What kind of atheist are you? Do you follow any rules of logic?
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September 18, 2013 at 6:26 pm
What evidence do you have that the supernatural exists? Your convictions are based on speculation and belief.
What is your evidence that there is a supernatural God?
Where is your proof that God exists, but you do not mean the God Zeus, Apollo or Horus or do you?
“illogical since they concern two very different areas”. Oh? So gestational anomalies only affect the lip and palate but no other parts of the anatomy?
“If you have any knowledge at all about human nature you should know that people are capable of the most dishonest, and self-delusional claims.” You mean like religious miracles, suspension of the Laws of Physics, walking on water, apparitions of Jesus and the virgin Mary in pizza slices, tree trunks and potatoes?
Have you ever seen an epileptic have seizures and able to have a normal conversation at the same time? Where does this ever happen? In your classes in Exorcist School?
Jesus may have been a Jew by birth but he was an Atheist by choice; that’s why they tried to kill him and why he had to hide, escape from, slip through them, when they tried to beat him, stone him, throw him over cliffs, as they still do today in Muslim countries for blasphemy and homosexual anomaly.
Tell me what part of Religion, Church, Clergy, Rituals, Jesus loved! Or was a member of? NONE! Jesus was an atheist and the religious wingnuts of his day sought to imprison him, throw him over cliffs, stone him, whip him, beat him, mock him and crucify him, which is no different than religious wingnuts do today to atheists and gays alike, especially in Muslim countries, Supernatural god myth followers do it with words today, online.
Read Matt 23 Jesus’s famous “Woe To You” indictment of the Clergy and religion that pretty much sums up Jesus views about the clergy.
Herein may lie the basis for your instability:
BY BARRY DUKE – SEPTEMBER 16, 2013
POSTED IN: BELIEF AND SPIRITUALITY, SECULARISM, SPIRITUALITY, THE FREETHINKER
RELIGION, and even more, spirituality not tied to formal religion, appears to be unhelpful in terms of protecting you from low moods, and could even be linked to greater depression, according to a major new study entitled Spiritual and religious beliefs as risk factors for the onset of major depression:(mental illness) an international cohort study.
Regardless of country, the stronger the spiritual or religious belief at the start of the study, the higher the risk of onset of depression.
—————————————-
In reality, the most secular countries-those with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics-are among the most stable, peaceful, free, wealthy, and healthy societies. And the most religious nations-wherein worship of God is in abundance-are among the most unstable, violent, oppressive, poor, and destitute. Compare the Catholic Philippines to Secular Canada.
The acceptance of gender equality among irreligious nations may be linked to the relative acceptance of homosexuality. Inglehart et al., in Human Beliefs and Values: A Cross-Cultural Sourcebook Based on the 1999-2002 Value Surveys (2004), found that, of the eighteen nations least likely to condemn homosexuality, all were highly ranked organic-atheistic nations. Conversely, of the eighteen nations most likely to condemn homosexuality, all but Hungary were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism.
In sum, countries with high rates of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on earth, while societies with nonexistent rates of organic atheism are among the most destitute. The former nations have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The sole indicator of societal health in which religious countries scored higher than irreligious countries is suicide.
Stats by United Nations studies show that the most unstable people are the most highly religious people and the most stable are those with the highest rate of organic atheism.
The conclusion to be drawn from the data provided above is simply that high levels of irreligion do not automatically result in a breakdown of civilization, a rise in immoral behavior, or in “sick societies.”
Quite the opposite seems to be the case. Furthermore, religion is clearly not the simple and single path to righteous societies that religious fundamentalists seem to think it is. This fact must be vigorously asserted in response to the proclamations of politically active theists. From small-town school boards to the floor of the Senate, conservative Christians are championing religion as the solution to America’s societal problems. However, their pious “solution” is highly dubious and clearly not supported by the best available research of social science.
Belief in God may provide comfort to the individual believer, but, at the societal level, its results do not compare at all favorably with that of the more secular societies. When seeking a more civil, just, safe, humane, and healthy society, one is more likely to find it among those nations ranking low in religious faith-contrary to the preaching of religious folks.
Have a nice eternity with your supernatural God; I am enjoying the present in the presence of the Father within, just as Jesus did two thousand years ago.
If you do not accept me, you do not accept my source, you do not accept the Father of Jesus or the Father of the Son of Man, so help you god. amen.
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September 18, 2013 at 6:29 pm
newsChristianviews:
Sects and Violence
Is Faith Good for Us?
Phil Zuckerman
Phil Zuckerman is an associate professor of sociology at Pitzer College in California. He is the author of Invitation to the Sociology of Religion (Routledge, 2003) and is currently writing a book on secularization in Scandinavia.
SOURCE: I know you love Sources, so fill your boots on this one.:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5
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September 18, 2013 at 7:55 pm
newsChristianview:
Talking to religionists for evidence regarding reason in the face of myths, miracles and magic, is like shearing a pig – lots of screams but little wool.
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September 19, 2013 at 5:58 am
Leo, in post 22 you described lust as:
“Lust is defined by other people as far as I am concerned like most sins it is something you do that other people are offended by.”
This not a sufficient definition as many things offend people. If you cannot define lust, how can you discuss it?
I have been trying to get you to commit to a source of authority and you have avoided by referencing the Bible and Jesus, but you slipped up and exposed your authority in the following comment:
“PS I don’t discriminate against Christians; I believe that every religion based on the supernatural is a form of mental illness that prevents people from traversing the mighty gulf between the ancient reptilian brain of fight or flight reflexes when they can’t discern between life and the wind blowing a lifeless twig across their path and the new evolutionary brain of rational, reasonable thought that provides insight with knowledge instead of belief.”
So as I suspected, evolution is your authority which is why you reject the supernatural and why you have come up with your own brand of morality that justifies homosexuality. But your evolution is a lie and you must have far more faith to believe in it than I need to believe in the supernatural God. Evolution is indeed based on “belief”. So if you can so casually diagnose us with “mental illness” for our faith which is based on better evidence than your evolution, what would your mental condition be considered, logically?
Darwinian evolution is the gospel of atheism; it gives atheism the illusion of intelligence. But it is a lie and you cannot give any real scientific reason for believing in it. So who is the real nut case here?
You said:
“Psych 101 is every bit more valid that [sic]you [sic]phraseology: “Word of God”. Psych 101 can be easily understood and demonstrated whereas the “Word of God”; AKA, the “Word of Men” can not because they link their caricature concept God to the supernatural that doesn’t exist.”
Mr. Leo, just what aspect of Psych 101 is understood and demonstrated? Are you a Psych major? Have you seen any research on the credibility of Psych? Are you not aware of the many lies told in the name of Psychology and the money made by such lies? Or are you simply uninterested in any evidence that would undermine your “intellectual” crusade against “religion”. What proof do you have that the supernatural God does not exist?
You said:
“my mission is to communicate that only knowledge can set you free, belief never can!”
But you have not delivered that message, what you have done in stead is propagated “belief”, supposition and rhetoric. And you have done so quite religiously. You ignore hermeneutical law to interpret what you call scripture, you connect biological “anomaly” with psychological conditions when you know full well that you don’t have a clue what is really going on in the mind of a homosexual. Your application of you brand of diagnosis is not used consistently but selectively, to support homosexuals while ignoring others with mental conditions that “cause” them to desire what is considered wrong by rational society.
You even attack religion for its cruelty while practicing the religion of atheism that is historically responsible for more atrocities any other religion. You are indeed a card Mr. Leo.
You said:
“You seem to think like most religionists that normal, natural design is something to be guilty about, to self loath about.”
Yet you have not established or defined what you claim to be “normal, natural design”, and you have ignored the fact that “true” normal, natural design such as the desire to survive has at time still resulted in “guilt” (crime) and self-loathing (low self-esteem) using your line of warped reasoning can easily be ascribed to biological “anomaly” rather than a series of situations and events in someone’s life. (Since it is in the brain, why blame others for it). You are an unstable thinker Mr. Leo and I suspect that you are aware of this, which is why you post your run on and on comments.
But you should know that word are a poor cover to hide behind a warped intellect.(Based on your claim that we suffer from mental illness for believing in a supernatural God).
You said:
“It is clear the unhealthy aspects of a fabricated belief system has enslaved the world with its diseases of pity, guilt and revenge and where contempt has been taught for the primary instincts of life. When one is taught that there is something unclean in the precondition of life, sexuality, one denies the very foundations of life.”
Yet you have not acknowledged the horror of atheism and its contribution to the “unhealthy”, “abuse”, “slavery”, “murder”, “guilt” and a host of other negatives in human history. While evil done in the name of Christianity was done contrary to its principles by false “Christians”, the evil done in the name of atheism was done in accordance with its principles. And for you to describe sexuality as the primary instinct of and the foundation of life, shows your ignorance and desperation to fabricate the illogical to avoid the reality.
Also, life is not propagated by homosexuality, or had you not noticed that problem in your obsession to defend the abnormal?
Your need to blame the homosexual desire on biology and the “precondition of life” is logical since you have no foundation for your ideas about morality, and you have no foundation for your ideas about life’s origin. Once you reject the obvious truth, you are forced to rely on lies and the very kind of fantasy that you have attempted to accuse Christianity of. Yet you must borrow from our world view to give your strangeness the illusion of intelligence.
You cannot support your strange views by being faithful to true science so you must rely on the fake science of evolution. You know that your atheism makes no sense in a world of order and laws so you borrow from ours while pretending not to need our world view to stay afloat. This is sad and strange Mr. Leo, as intelligent as you claim to be, why are you not aware of these things, or are you.
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September 19, 2013 at 7:32 am
Leo, your post 57 does not answer my question in post 55. Just making claims and saying it is deductive reasoning and basic common sense does not prove your point. You use much unnecessary space to repeat and expand on a non asnwer. Again, my questions were:
State your foundation without using the Bible.
2. How does gestational, biological function DETERMINE ones gender and what is your source?
3. What is your source for proof that homosexuals are born that way?
4. What is your source for claiming that gender is determined by the brain and does the same apply to ethnicity, species and color as well?
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September 19, 2013 at 7:07 pm
Also, life is not propagated by homosexuality, or had you not noticed that problem in your obsession to defend the normal? Well then that’s fine; you don’t need to worry about being supplanted!
Your need to blame the homosexual desire on biology and the “precondition of life” is logical since you have no foundation for your ideas about morality, and you have no foundation for your ideas about life’s origin. Once you reject the obvious truth, you are forced to rely on lies and the very kind of fantasy that you have attempted to accuse Christianity of. Yet you must borrow from our world view to give your strangeness the illusion of intelligence.
You cannot support your strange views by being faithful to true science so you must rely on the fake science of evolution. You know that your atheism makes no sense in a world of order and laws so you borrow from ours while pretending not to need our world view to stay afloat. This is sad and strange Mr. Leo, as intelligent as you claim to be, why are you not aware of these things, or are you.
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September 19, 2013 at 7:26 pm
Okay newChristianview:
instead of you asking all the questions: Let me ask you the same questions since you know the answers; presumably!
2. How does gestational, biological function DETERMINE ones gender and what is your source?
3. What is your source for proof that homosexuals are born that way?
4. What is your source for claiming that gender is determined by the brain and does the same apply to ethnicity, species and color as well?
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September 20, 2013 at 10:40 am
Leo, you are not being reasonable or logical, since they are not my arguments why should I be asked to defend them. I don’t believe they can be defended. You have flooded this thread with much conjecture and I am simply asking you to make sense of what you are claiming. I suspect that you know full well that you cannot defend or prove what you said, but you have posted them because you delight in opposing threatens your worldview. You seem to want company in your strange world moral non-absolutes, and relativism. I think it is sad that you are so lonely that you have to come to this kind of blog to rant. You have your own blog where you are God, so why are you here spreading confusion?
We invite intelligent dialogue here and I am sure you know this since you have expressed a knowledge of Jason’s material, but for you to rant and call names and attack all of religion, (as if we support the evils of religion), is not kind or intelligent.
None of us agree on everything, but we don’t just rant and accuse and post strange and un-defendable rhetoric. So please, if you are not going to intelligently make and discuss your points here why not just be a silent reader.
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September 20, 2013 at 1:33 pm
newsChristianview.
You said that you believe in the supernatural so that is your argument I asked you to defend. On what basis do you believe in the supernatural? That’s all.
If you want to focus on one point of view I have made then focus on that one point of view but please don’t give me a litany in one post and a summary charging everything with being unreasonable, illogical, conjecture. NO argument can threaten my world view especially from followers of religion because my world view is exactly the world view of Jesus.
So let’s start with the supernatural and tell me why you can or cannot defend the supernatural. I simply state that the supernatural does not exist and that is a fact unless you can offer proof that it does exist. One can offer no proof for non existence; one can only offer proof of existence. The onus is on you, not me.
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September 20, 2013 at 1:39 pm
newsChristianview:
For example
in post 66 you ask the exact same question in three different ways; do you not see the fallacy in that?
“2. How does gestational, biological function DETERMINE ones gender and what is your source?
3. What is your source for proof that homosexuals are born that way?
4. What is your source for claiming that gender is determined by the brain…”
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September 21, 2013 at 8:21 am
So Mr. Leo, in posts 65-66 I ask you questions and instead of answering them you ask me questions in post 67 and 68 by basically repeating my questions to you, In post 69 I reply that since I did not make your arguments I have no need to defend them, and in post 70 you reply and asked me to defend my belief in the supernatural. Well, that is not all you asked me in the posts I listed above, but them you have not been to most accurate communicator here. Nevertheless, I will comply for truth sake and answer your question. I trust that you will at least make an attempt to answer my questions and not play this game of “ask a question for a question”. At some point you will have to explain you many errors here.
In post 70 you asked
“On what basis do you believe in the supernatural?
If you want to focus on one point of view I have made then focus on that one point of view but please don’t give me a litany in one post and a summary charging everything with being unreasonable, illogical, conjecture.”
“So let’s start with the supernatural and tell me why you can or cannot defend the supernatural. I simply state that the supernatural does not exist and that is a fact unless you can offer proof that it does exist. One can offer no proof for non-existence; one can only offer proof of existence. The onus is on you, not me.”
First, I must point out that if you “can offer no proof for non-existence” how can you claim there is no supernatural God?
My bases for believing in the supernatural is the fact that what we see around us cannot be explained any other way. The only other view that is in the running, is Evolution, and that has sufficiently been disqualified as a non-science and a bogus argument for life.
There are three major evidences for the supernatural God:
1. The existence of life and it’s level of complexity
2. The massive diversity of life including human morality
3. The documented history and message from the Creator as recorded by eye witness.
These are my key evidences and they all not only threaten your worldview but refute it. And I beg to differ with your claim that your worldview is the same as the view of Jesus. I challenge you to demonstrate that without tampering with the actual biblical text.
And as for your comment in post 71, there is no fallacy in asking three questions whose answers are directly connected. You have answered neither of them. I have asked the questions in the manner I have to leave as little wiggle room as possible for you. Your tendency has been to avoid direct answers so please answer my question, if you can.
I should also note that there were more questions and arguments in my post 65 that you ignored. I know why but that does not let you off the hook, you have made quite a number of claims here and quite piously, and using an unnecessary amount of space to do it. I have challenged you to defend them intelligently, and that is fair.
And for the record, I have used far less space here than you have, so please don’t complain about the size of my posts unless you are willing to be brief in the future with you replies.
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September 22, 2013 at 1:27 pm
News Christian Views:
The recent change in your User ID is noted as evidence of the change:
Evidence is observable, it can be seen, evidence can be repeated, as by experiment can be replicated over and over again; evidence has 5 sensory perceptions; auditory, visual, olfactory, tangible, taste; plus the super senses.
1. “THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE AND ITS LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY.”
What you attempt to do here is an example of the remarkable inability of Christians to support a belief system. You try to transpose a set of known and accepted values of “life” as evidence to support a completely, unrelated premise, not with clever reasoning but as though the mere assertion were enough to cement your position.
“The existence of life and its level of complexity” is the evidence of the “Natural” not evidence of the Supernatural.
2. “THE MASSIVE DIVERSITY OF LIFE INCLUDING HUMAN MORALITY”.
Again, here for your second point, you offer the same “evidence” from, your first point, of “natural life” to prove that the supernatural exists using more descriptive distractors: “massive” and “diversity” and then bringing in a red herring: “human morality” which is a literary device to lead readers towards a false conclusion.
Human morality proves that humans have a more highly evolved(developed) brain that parses right and wrong, good and evil using concepts of discretion, understanding, reason and compassion commonly referred to as a moral code.
3. “THE DOCUMENTED HISTORY AND MESSAGE FROM THE CREATOR AS RECORDED BY EYE WITNESS.”
There has never been an eye witness to messages from the Creator and no record of eye witness testimony in any generation even though Christian and religionists in every generation make those claims. Anyone can claim to be a messenger from chicken heaven but let’s see a few eggs. Show us a few eggs as evidence of chicken heaven but you cannot, you have no eggs.
Evidence: To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove; plainly visible; to be seen: ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood.
Typical of Christians who have no basis to hang their religious views on anything supernatural, you have offered no evidence of the supernatural but try to suggest that evidence of the natural proves the supernatural. It is lolable from lol lol land.
The supernatural is in your brain like a dream you have while sleeping; it seems real but it is only real in your internal brain. If you have a mindset willing to suspend disbelief then you will believe in external supernatural: TV paranormal, ghosts and angels, demons, jinn of the desert, gods of all kinds or the one lump god that Abraham invented. Of course you can manifest your dreams or imagination and make movies depicting your caricature concepts, Hollywood does it all the time for your money but we call that entertainment.
Religion does the same thing and for the same reason to make money but they use fear tactics, guilt and self loathing to capture your imagination.
Here is the biggest problem facing Christians: religion forces on them the church dogma that followers cannot think for themselves and so they do not think for themselves and because of what the clergy drills into the reptile brain(the lower level brain) they just cannot discount the ridiculous because the clergy drones on in its monotone voice “IT IS IN THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD.”
Here is one of the most nonsensical statements in the Bible:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Now just for a moment think about this; in other words, the supernatural exists because you hope it exists and that hope is the evidence of things not seen. What a most ludicrous statement and that is your basis of evidence that proves the supernatural. All you have is a ludicrous piece of philosophy that support a belief system called Theology, expertise in the unknowable.
Your non evidence does nothing to threaten or refute my worldview but as the Son of Man I can tell you to take your clerical robes, go home and stop using the name of Jesus to support your own vanity, you do his honor a great disservice. Study Jesus without the supernatural mindset of DOGMA and get to know the real hero Jesus.
Jesus’ legacy is one of attitude and disposition, graceful and genuine in compassion and kindness, always ready to forgive those willing to receive it; a man so full of common sense and sound judgment, that he had the recognition of the Father within, not the supernatural gods created by charlatans, magicians, popoffs and snake oil salesmen selling miracle water in ketchup packages.
Jesus was a real man who never performed a miracle but was tagged with supernatural powers because of his common sense ideas to tackle any problem. Jesus gave the presence of his peace by his life, not through his death; the clergy has it all backward by claiming Jesus gave the world life through his death, uh uh. Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Jesus gave life to the world through his life not his death but supernaturalism caters to the residual reptilian ritualistic brain of humans and as long as you have clergy devoted to live off of the avails of prostituting falsehoods, myths and miracles for the financial security they solicit from those willing to give it to them, that’s religion for you, catering to Bingo the Money God for their own selfish egos.
I posted the real Jesus in Post # 37 for your wisdom to accept, swallow, digest; but you reject the Jesus you claim to follow at your peril. I understand fully the Son of Man, you do not.
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September 22, 2013 at 3:38 pm
Leo you said:
“1. “THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE AND ITS LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY.”
What you attempt to do here is an example of the remarkable inability of Christians to support a belief system. You try to transpose a set of known and accepted values of “life” as evidence to support a completely, unrelated premise, not with clever reasoning but as though the mere assertion were enough to cement your position.
“The existence of life and its level of complexity” is the evidence of the “Natural” not evidence of the Supernatural.”
I suspected that you would attempt to revert to some kind of false-philosophy or fake-science so I will ask you to KISMIP for the sake of those following our dialogue. Not everyone can keep up with attempts to impress with words, now for my reply to your comments.
You have misrepresented and misinterpreted my intentions and my comment. I am not transposing anything and there is no reason for you to accuse me of doing so other than to intentionally confuse my point. If you required more clarity you could have asked for it instead of jumping to the conclusion that I am trying to transpose because of some lack if support for my belief system. I will demonstrate that it is you who lake evidence and not me. This will also be demonstrated by how often you attempt to tactically confuse the issue and twist what I say rather than deal directly with my arguments.
The existence of life is not the “evidence” of the “natural” it “IS” the natural. So how can you make such a simple error? But my point, as you well know is that the natural life that we all observe cannot be explained apart from a supernatural creator. The complexity which includes the matter of “informational coding” and “multi-level self correcting codes” has not been rebutted, rather than address my actual argument, you opted to attack the words. How interesting. It is also interesting that you ignored the fact of life’s origin. Your evolution has not been able to explain scientifically the origin and none of the few strange evolutionists Ideas about how it “might” have began salve the problem. The accepted answer is ‘we don’t know”.
You continued:
“2. “THE MASSIVE DIVERSITY OF LIFE INCLUDING HUMAN MORALITY”.
Here again you falsely accuse me while making my point, you ignore my real argument and again attempt to insist that the natural cannot testify of the supernatural and thus cannot be referenced to prove the existence of the supernatural. Yet you have not attempted to refute my argument you only reject it. Evolution cannot explain the existence or the diversity of life; nothing can accept the supernatural, that is my point. Why have you not refuted it?
You then attempt to get past my human morality argument by suggesting that it is the result of “evolution” yet you cannot explain how evolution can teach humanity concepts of worship, good, evil, love, music and art etc. These concepts are beyond biology and they separate us from all other life forms. Why are you pretending not to get the point?
3. “THE DOCUMENTED HISTORY AND MESSAGE FROM THE CREATOR AS RECORDED BY EYE WITNESS.”
Here once again you have run from my argument, but here you go on your signature rant without ever engaging the argument. You claimed that you have studied the way all your life since age 12 but when I asked you who your teachers were and what text you studied, you ignored my question. How can you intelligently discuss a book that you have not read or studied and do not understand?
Your rant has no bases in the actual examination of the biblical text.
Perhaps you can tell us on what bases you reject the biblical text and it’s claims. Your rants are meaningless and space wasting. We are not talking about chicken and eggs so please be rational.
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September 22, 2013 at 6:54 pm
News Christian View:
I know that you are deliberately obtuse because I have told you before one cannot disprove the that a non entity does not exist. So your claim that I did not refute your claim is correct because not only can one not refute a claim that a non entity does not exist, one cannot refute the claim either. The simple logic is that if a non entity does not exist how can you prove it does not exist. That’s called an impossible.
On the other hand you claim that the supernatural exists and so you have to offer evidence that the supernatural exists; that is, you must provide evidence of the supernatural not evidence of the natural and claim that the supernatural must exist because that is the only answer.
Once upon a time scientists claimed that radiation existed but could not prove it; nevertheless, there were signs from other materials that were being affected by something unknown and so the theory developed. Others thought radiation did not exist but could not prove it did not exist nor did they have to prove a non existent entity, nor could they explain the affects of the unknown source affecting other materials. So the onus then was on the scientists to prove the truth of radiation, if it exists, they reasoned, it must be detectable. Hans Geiger conducted research related to radioactivity that would prove to be critical to the field’s advance and it fell upon nuclear physicist Hans Geiger and his fellow physicist Walther Muller to develop the Gieger-Muller Counter. Demonstrable truth and evidence that invisible radiation did indeed exist.
You my News Christian View need to invent a Supernatural Meter to prove what you now only believe to exist you and a couple billion Christians who for the last ten thousand centuries have not been able to do so for love nor money.
Invent for the world a Supernatural Meter with the imagination you invented your god myths with and we will accept your hitherto unfounded, unprovable nothing and that we claim no thing is Nothing and No Thing is not and never will be a Some Thing.
http://vega.org.uk/video/programme/196
Leo
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September 22, 2013 at 6:55 pm
http://www.vega.org.uk/video/programme/196
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September 23, 2013 at 6:01 am
Leo you said:
“1. “THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE AND ITS LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY.”
What you attempt to do here is an example of the remarkable inability of Christians to support a belief system. You try to transpose a set of known and accepted values of “life” as evidence to support a completely, unrelated premise, not with clever reasoning but as though the mere assertion were enough to cement your position.
“The existence of life and its level of complexity” is the evidence of the “Natural” not evidence of the Supernatural.”
I suspected that you would attempt to revert to some kind of false-philosophy or fake-science so I will ask you to KISMIP for the sake of those following our dialogue. Not everyone can keep up with attempts to impress with words, now for my reply to your comments.
You have misrepresented and misinterpreted my intentions and my comment. I am not transposing anything and there is no reason for you to accuse me of doing so other than to intentionally confuse my point. If you required more clarity you could have asked for it instead of jumping to the conclusion that I am trying to transpose because of some lack if support for my belief system. I will demonstrate that it is you who lake evidence and not me. This will also be demonstrated by how often you attempt to tactically confuse the issue and twist what I say rather than deal directly with my arguments.
The existence of life is not the “evidence” of the “natural” it “IS” the natural. So how can you make such a simple error? But my point, as you well know is that the natural life that we all observe cannot be explained apart from a supernatural creator. The complexity which includes the matter of “informational coding” and “multi-level self correcting codes” has not been rebutted, rather than address my actual argument, you opted to attack the words. How interesting. It is also interesting that you ignored the fact of life’s origin. Your evolution has not been able to explain scientifically the origin and none of the few strange evolutionists Ideas about how it “might” have began salve the problem. The accepted answer is ‘we don’t know”.
You continued:
“2. “THE MASSIVE DIVERSITY OF LIFE INCLUDING HUMAN MORALITY”.
Here again you falsely accuse me while making my point, you ignore my real argument and again attempt to insist that the natural cannot testify of the supernatural and thus cannot be referenced to prove the existence of the supernatural. Yet you have not attempted to refute my argument you only reject it. Evolution cannot explain the existence or the diversity of life; nothing can accept the supernatural, that is my point. Why have you not refuted it?
You then attempt to get past my human morality argument by suggesting that it is the result of “evolution” yet you cannot explain how evolution can teach humanity concepts of worship, good, evil, love, music and art etc. These concepts are beyond biology and they separate us from all other life forms. Why are you pretending not to get the point?
3. “THE DOCUMENTED HISTORY AND MESSAGE FROM THE CREATOR AS RECORDED BY EYE WITNESS.”
Here once again you have run from my argument, but here you go on your signature rant without ever engaging the argument. You claimed that you have studied the way all your life since age 12 but when I asked you who your teachers were and what text you studied, you ignored my question. How can you intelligently discuss a book that you have not read or studied and do not understand?
Your rant has no bases in the actual examination of the biblical text.
Perhaps you can tell us on what bases you reject the biblical text and it’s claims. Your rants are meaningless and space wasting. We are not talking about chicken and eggs so please be rational.
Leo in your post 75 you said:
“I know that you are deliberately obtuse because I have told you before one cannot disprove the[sic] that a non entity does not exist. So your claim that I did not refute your claim is correct because not only can one not refute a claim that a non entity does not exist, one cannot refute the claim either. The simple logic is that if a non entity does not exist how can you prove it does not exist. That’s called an impossible.”
Your accusation of my “deliberate obtuse” is denied, and I again accuse you of stalling tactics. If you cannot prove your argument then you have no argument. I have argued that you did not refute my claim and I am correct as you have admitted, so now the question is, if you know that you cannot prove your conviction, then why are you propagating it here and attacking those who hold a different view?
You continued:
“On the other hand you claim that the supernatural exists and so you have to offer evidence that the supernatural exists; that is, you must provide evidence of the supernatural not evidence of the natural and claim that the supernatural must exist because that is the only answer.” And then you gave me a history lesson.
Thanks for the unnecessary history lesson; you could have made your point with far fewer words. Your problem Mr. Leo, is that you are stuck on the natural and have blinded yourself from the possibility of the supernatural willingly, the question is why?
The fact is that the natural is not all that there is and that has been demonstrated on several levels both cosmic and physics. Your naturalist convictions prevent you from seeing the supernatural and you refuse to acknowledge that the natural makes no sense without the supernatural. That is why you have ignored my arguments about the origin of life and the ultra-complexity of life.
You are asking me to prove the existence of the supernatural without use of the natural when the natural IS the proof of the supernatural, you are not being logical; you are attempting to stack the deck in your favor by forbidding the necessary, because you have no defense against my arguments. Since there is no naturalistic explanation to explain the existence of the natural, then the natural IS the evidence for the supernatural. Some of your fellow atheists have recognized the problem and have opted to go with “the aliens from other planets” story to avoid the God they claim does not exist. Get it?
You continued:
“You my News Christian View need to invent a Supernatural Meter to prove what you now only believe to exist you and a couple billion Christians who for the last ten thousand centuries have not been able to do so for love nor money.”
But that is not necessary Mr. Leo, the supernatural God has made Himself known, “for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE” even His eternal power and deity so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE”. Those words are found in the same book of Romans that you imagined supported atheism. It is in the first chapter which you had to skip over to get to the text that you shared with us. Apparently, you are not as good at studying as you think.
You concluded:
“Invent for the world a Supernatural Meter with the imagination you invented your god myths with and we will accept your hitherto unfounded, unprovable nothing and that we claim no thing is Nothing and No Thing is not and never will be a Some Thing.”
As I have said, it has already been invented, and YOU ARE IT. Though you reject your creator because of your sinful desires that you also deny; your rejection does not remove God from the equation. As your book of Romans also says, “shall their unbelief make the faith of God without affect? God forbid, yeah, let God be true and EVERY MAN A LYAR”. (Romans 3:4) (I would leave it to you to find it, perhaps while you are searching you will find many other great truths that you have overlooked, but I don’t think I could trust you).
I would like to know when you will address the lack of evidence for your view. How did life begin and what is your evidence? How do you explain the ultra-complexity of life and the laws and order that we see in the world and universe? How do you explain the anthropic principle? How do you explain the content of the biblical record and its details and its mathematical and prophetic properties? And please, let’s not resort to posting every atheist/anti-Christian website you can find for us to visit to get our answers, I could do the same but that would not demonstrate that I really can defend my convictions, only that others have tried. You should be able to defend your own view without posting web links to help you. KISMIP
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September 23, 2013 at 6:03 am
My apologies for the double post, please scroll down to “Loe, you said in your post 75”
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September 23, 2013 at 10:48 pm
newsChristianview:
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
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September 24, 2013 at 3:22 am
So???? Jefferson was a great man in advancing liberty, but simply producing an English, French, and Greek Bible with all the references to Christs divinity as well as the miracles recorded in scripture cut out,hardly makes him a Bible scholar. What is easy is exposing the empty claims of so called Biblical “defectiveness” and “tricks” .
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September 24, 2013 at 11:17 am
Leo,(post 79), Jefferson was not a Bible scholar and was perhaps the least religious of the founding Fathers.
Rather than giving me the opinions of others who lack respect for the Bible, what have you actually studied yourself that makes you so sure that it is not a reliable document?
If you are going to bash the Bible accept the few parts that you like, you should at least have a sufficient knowledge of it.
Also, you still have to deal with the other issues we are discussing.
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September 24, 2013 at 1:39 pm
newsChrisrianview:
Why did you change your name again?
You said that Jefferson was not a bible scholar but where I come from a scholar is someone who reads more than one book.
The bible is very reliable; it’s just the interpretation of supernaturalists that make the interpretation unreliable. That’s why Jesus and I interpret the bible perfectly; we do not base our interpretation on the supernaturalism of mankind’s superstition of non knowledge, conjecture, speculation, imagination, I suppose, maybe, I think….. No we don’t give opinions; we give revelations.
You? You give opinions that include unreasonable assumptions, suspension of the laws of physics and ghostly paranormal activity that incorporate the abracadabra of charlatanism and magic. You can only be at home with those who have been sufficiently brainwashed so as not to question your theories of the unknowable.The reason why both Jesus and I hate all things clergy that are premised completely on deceptive practices. (This is biblical and made evident by the Son of Man Jesus.)
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September 24, 2013 at 9:34 pm
You said:
“You said that Jefferson was not a bible scholar but where I come from a scholar is someone who reads more than one book.”
Basted on your strange idea of what a scholar is, I know very few people who are not scholar then. Not very smart statement Leo.
You said:
“The bible is very reliable; it’s just the interpretation of supernaturalists that make the interpretation unreliable.”
But you don’t know enough about the Bible to draw that conclusion.
I am trying to get you to defend your claim, what “Bible” are you reading? What method of “interpretation” are you using to interpret it?
You said:
“That’s why Jesus and I interpret the bible perfectly; we do not base our interpretation on the supernaturalism of mankind’s superstition of non knowledge, conjecture, speculation, imagination, I suppose, maybe, I think….. No we don’t give opinions; we give revelations.”
Leo, how do you determine that the Bible is reliable but “we” incorrectly interpret the supernatural into it? On what bases do you draw that conclusion? Is this a game to you? You cannot possibly accept the entire Bible as reliable and come up with a non-supernatural Bible, unless you have some strange illogical rule that you use to govern your interpretation. I would like to know what the strange rule is. So far you have made no attempt to argue your points intelligently and that concerns me.
You said:
“You? You give opinions that include unreasonable assumptions, suspension of the laws of physics and ghostly paranormal activity that incorporate the abracadabra of charlatanism and magic.”
But you have not yet proven that, you have only made the accusation over and over again, I am asking you to prove it and you will not because you cannot. Just making accusations does not prove your point. I don’t believe in magic or charlatanism, but you must accuse me of such to avoid the real issue, which is your inability to refute my arguments against your false worldview that drives you to talk nonsense.
You said:
“You can only be at home with those who have been sufficiently brainwashed so as not to question your theories of the unknowable.”
But I do question your theories of the “unknowable”, my problem is that you don’t. My views are not based on the “unknowable” as yours are, I know the God who created me and I have His message.
You concluded:
“The reason why both Jesus and I hate all things clergy that are premised completely on deceptive practices. (This is biblical and made evident by the Son of Man Jesus.)”
But Leo, you have not demonstrated your claims, you have only pontificated using select texts out of context. I am beginning to think that there is something wrong with you because you are not acting rational in your communication. If we are going to determine which of us is correct about God, Jesus, Evolution, Atheism and the Bible, you are going to have to communicate rationally. If you are not willing to do so then please don’t waste our time here.
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September 25, 2013 at 10:55 am
news:
I’ve got news for you.
You are too obtuse to understand or you aren playing a game by repeating stupidity over and over like a brainwashed minion.
Basted(basted is pouring juices or melted fat over (meat) during cooking in order to keep it moist.) on your strange(all reality is strange to you) idea of what a scholar is, I know very few people who are not scholar then.(You need to learn English as a second language since you cannot understand sarcasm) Not very smart statement news.
“But you don’t know enough about the Bible to draw that conclusion. How do you know what I know? You don’t even know what you know! You need ESL classes.
“I am trying to get you to defend your claim, what “Bible” are you reading?”
I have given you many quotes but you obviously never read the bible since you ask this ridiculous statement. My biblical knowledge exceeds yours but your deception by your evil rhetoric(read d-evil as the absence of Good)
“What method of “interpretation” are you using to interpret it?”
My interpretation is called common sense, the same kind that Jesus used. Your interpretation is the abracadabra, hocus pocus nonsense they teach in seminary school along with classes in deception to accuse everyone who dares to make claims against your ghostly cobweb mind.
“On what bases do you draw that conclusion?”
My Basis is wisdom from understanding that comes by common sense of reality, not the supernatural tooth fairy angels in the seminary that do not exist outside the minds of the deceived and deceptive practitioners.
Oh and why can’t you prove your claim? You make the claim that you believe in the supernatural but then disclaim it and then again “I know the God who created me and I have His message.”
The only message you have is the deception of the Scribes and Pharisees. Again I refer you to Matt 23 to read the indictment of Jesus against your type of clerical deception.
I don’t just think there is something wrong with you, I know there is something wrong with you. It takes a mental inconsistency, not only to accept deceit but to practice the same on others through the evil use of language.
You probably do not know what this scripture means either, one of the indictment “Woes” so I’ll give you a biblical parable lesson; It applies to proselytes like yourself.
From the King James Version which I know I need to tell you because you will not know which bible I am referring to unless I tell you: Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.”
Do you know why it makes you twice as as much the son of hell as them? I know you don’t so I’ll explain this parable.
Jesus went out into the desert to meditate upon the clergy, religion and the church in the way it deals with the masses and what his role should be in light of that. He thought about how they used magic to turn stones to bread with clever magic tricks that adults use to deceive children and how they used deceptions and fear to devourer widows’ properties and fill their bank accounts with tithes.
As Jesus contemplated those things as many others have done so, when deciding to devote their time to religious life as they “learn” how to practice religion, he made a vow never to practice deceit, to be honest and trustworthy, forthright and upright and never use his common sense talents to mock the true Father of Good within every person.
Now the bible refers to this thoughtful encounter as having been lead in the desert to be tempted by the devil. Of course sane people know there is no devil and that the devil is merely a metaphor of the absence of Good as Good itself is a metaphor of God.
Proselytes on the other hand, whom you typify by your comments, are those who after realizing the deceptions of clergy magic tricks and clever disguises accept the cloak of deceit as the perfect way to become financially secure while at the same time appearing to be wise in the eyes of the community they engage and teach in.
Having thus learned from the Masters of deceit they incorporate the deceit they learn and then begin inventing their own tactics of misleading the people, knowing full well by this time that the supernatural is all based on myth, magic and miracle.
And so the proselytes become twice as fit for hell as the teachers they learned from for they build on the deceit down through the generations until you arrive to modernity and by this time the deceit takes on technological proportions when faith healers, using hidden microphones and earpiece receivers call out the various afflictions that people noted their prayer messages in the Visitors Book. And then its “Praise the Lawd” as they push the member off balance who are then caught by the bouncers on the stage, all part of the deceptive scheme of showmanship theatric faith healing sessions before the collection plates makes several rounds.
Using the hi-tech devices it seems they are receiving direct messages about the audience from the supernatural gods of men. The Benny Hinn’s and Peter Popoff’s, the charlatan crackpots you follow.
Have a nice eternity news, I wish you well in your journey and hope that your common sense mind that knows better will cause you to take a second look for truth and find the true God of the bible that Jesus called the Father but you will never be at peace practicing deceit and failing to understand and accept the real message of the gentleman of gentleness, kindness, caring, compassion and love for your fellowman. Common sense Son of Man of the bible, not supernatural Jesus of the clergy who never existed.
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September 25, 2013 at 12:34 pm
news:
PART ONE: Once upon a time I was floating in a beautiful milky cloud of peace when suddenly, I received a telepathic communication, no words, no signs, just an understanding: “The time has come”. Immediately I was thrust into a wormhole and emerged into the dazzling light, a distant shimmering angel, an irresistible invitation.
PART TWO: I reached the angel; my essence of being, enveloped the embrace: we became as one; as suddenly as in the milky cloud, I was yet again overwhelmed with understanding: I had reached a destiny; I was in warmth and security; I was Home: The Gates of Zygote. From whence I would eventually emerge, birthed so that all there is of Good is available to the man who is available to all there is of Good. And that’s all it takes for you too.
The Son of Man returns to retrieve men from their folly.
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September 25, 2013 at 12:42 pm
news:
The Son of Man always had the Holy Spirit within but just didn’t recognize it through the web and haze the clergy wove into the fabric of stoneage society with supernaturalism, the antitheses of the real God the Father of humanity. Jesus revealed knowledge so we too may claim as he did to be the Son of Man, real man, not man as you and I were, not man as the clergy brainwashed society to be, guilty & groveling, but real blood filled, life energized man with the Spirit living within His Kingdom within his man.
You are slightly wrong about Jesus. Jesus was born of Mary and unknown to most Christians, his father (Gabriel). Jesus realized as he guru up that the supernatural Gods of men were mere figments of the imagination and that the true Father Guide of men was imbedded in that fantastic thing called Brain with its sensory perception and powers of memory to guide us through life. Sometimes called the Holy Spirit, it was most often referred to by Jesus as the Father’s location: Lk 17:21
Jesus knew THE Father in him was THE Father in everyone and THE Father in everyone is the Good Guide for every human, if you let him. Having faith in the Good that resides in you is your just award; you just need to make the connection for your just reward by understanding and accepting the simplicity that was in Jesus because the just reward is available to everyone who is available to what you already have: ALL there is of Good is available to the man who is available to all there is of Good. Did I say that too fast?
And that’s a Good thing.
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September 25, 2013 at 12:45 pm
news:
Your entire worldview is based on the unknowable, that’s why it’s called Belief, Faith.
What you need is knowledge because only knowledge can set you free, belief never can.
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September 25, 2013 at 12:49 pm
news:
pontificated is a roman catholic term for the long winded nonsensical theology of the unknowable and you can talk for hours about the unknowable, that’s the nature of religious DOGMA, the opposite of AMGOD.
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September 26, 2013 at 6:48 am
Loe in your post 84 you said:
“You are too obtuse to understand or you aren [sic] playing a game by repeating stupidity over and over like a brainwashed minion.”
Calling my comments stupidity will not refute my arguments and pointing out my spelling errors or typos will not exempt your false claims.
You said:
“Basted (basted is pouring juices or melted fat over (meat) during cooking in order to keep it moist.)”
Thanks for the correction I intended to type “based”. See how easy it is to acknowledge an error?
I can understand sarcasm but I did not see it in your strange comments. Since you were not being sarcastic when you claimed that Jesus was an atheist, why should I know when you are being sarcastic?
You asked about my comment about your lack of knowledge of the Bible:
“How do you know what I know?”
Well, I based my comment to you on your posted statements, and your statements indicate little understanding of the biblical text.
You continued:
“I have given you many quotes but you obviously never read the bible since you ask this ridiculous statement. My biblical knowledge exceeds yours but your deception by your evil rhetoric(read d-evil as the absence of Good)”
No Leo, I asked the questions BECAUSE of your “bible quotes” as well as your claims to agree with Jesus. You have not yet answered my question about which version you were reading from. Indeed I have read the Bible, which is why I know you are not able to properly interpret it.
You said:
“My interpretation is called common sense, the same kind that Jesus used. Your interpretation is the abracadabra, hocus pocus nonsense they teach in seminary school along with classes in deception to accuse everyone who dares to make claims against your ghostly cobweb mind.”
I would have to ask, “common sense to whom?” There is no common sense in claiming that Jesus was an atheist or that God was only an inner thought and that no supernatural God exists. So I must challenge your understanding of “common sense”.
I asked:
“On what bases do you draw that conclusion?”
And you replied:
“My Basis is wisdom from understanding that comes by common sense of reality, not the supernatural tooth fairy angels in the seminary that do not exist outside the minds of the deceived and deceptive practitioners.”
Translation: “I make up my own rules and everyone will just have to adjust to them”, got it.
So there is really no need in my trying to make any real sense out of what you say. Since you are an authority unto yourself it does not make sense to try to reason with you, does it? Your understanding of “common sense” is clearly not what is normally meant by that term. So we are all at the mercy of you great wisdom and must rely on you to educate us. God help us all.
You then said:
“Oh and why can’t you prove your claim? You make the claim that you believe in the supernatural but then disclaim it and then again “I know the God who created me and I have His message.”
Leo, where did I “disclaim it? I have always maintained the existence of a supernatural God and I have not once disclaimed it. I have also sufficiently stated my case for the supernatural God and you have yet to refute my arguments.
You said:
“The only message you have is the deception of the Scribes and Pharisees. Again I refer you to Matt 23 to read the indictment of Jesus against your type of clerical deception.”
But Leo, the Scribes and Pharisees are not my type of clergy and therefore cannot be my type of clerical deception. I have asked you before to explain to us how you can conclude that Jesus was against “all” clergy just because he exposed the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees? Why do you ignore the fact that Jesus commended and gave instructions to other “clergy”? (Matthew 10:1-8). Your arguments are not accurate or logical. On what scholarly bases (and please don’t say “common sense” again) do you pick and choose what verses you will accept and which you reject?
You said:
“I don’t just think there is something wrong with you, [sic] I know there is something wrong with you. It takes a mental inconsistency, not only to accept deceit but to practice the same on others through the evil use of language.”
Yes Leo, I know what you think of me and those like me, you have made it clear that you think we are crazy, I am trying to establish which of us are justified in our accusations against the other. You believe life came from nothing, and that all the diversity and complexity we see in life are the result of a multitude of just right accidents, there is no supernatural God, Jesus was an atheist and did not believe in a supernatural God, and He agrees with you on all matters including all clergy being evil deceivers. You believe that homosexuality is a biologically caused normal condition and that a person’s sex is determines by what’s in their head and not what’s on their body. You believe demon possession is really epilepsy and we are just too dumb to know it. And anyone who does not agree with you is mentally disturbed. You have concluded all this and more without any logical evidence and you refuse to defend your claims. And yet you thing we are carzy.
You said:
“You probably do not know what this scripture means either, one of the indictment “Woes” so I’ll give you a biblical parable lesson; It applies to proselytes like yourself.”
You then gave me a strange bible lesson on Matthews 23 in which you insist that Devil and Good are only metaphors for evil and God. So the devil and good are metaphors and Jesus talked to metaphors and metaphors talked back to him. And you say were crazy?
You then go on your rant about false prophets and their tricks and assume that everyone who is a Christian is tricked by them and blindly follow them, and that is not logical. I don’t believe in or follow Popoff or Hinn nor do I trust them as real men of God. In fact, I agree with you that they are ecclesiastical pimps and soul hustlers so your rant is meaningless.
And none of what you said exempts you from your false views and poor ability to interpret the Bible. Neither does it vindicate you in your own propagation of falsehood here. You are the pot calling the kettle black. You are just as bad as those you are complaining about. Your lies and rejection of, and twisting of biblical truth make you as bad as those you complain about.
But it is apparent to me that you are not interested in a real intellectual dialogue to get to the truth, you are content to play games and pontificate about how brilliant you are and how ignorant we Christians are. You are not capable it seems to carry on a logical, intelligent dialogue and so I will not waste time any longer trying to get you to give intelligent replies.
I think I have sufficiently established that you are not serious about this kind of dialogue and that you are unable to defend your illogical worldview. You will no doubt continue to rant and take up space here to annoy as many of us as you can with your strange rhetoric just because you can and need to vent your hate for the idea of God and those of us who believe in and serve Him, but such is life, we must tolerate the childish. You have my prayers.
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September 27, 2013 at 9:55 am
Thanks for the break. Prayers and placebos are the same sugar.
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October 1, 2013 at 5:06 pm
No they are not. Wrong again.
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