Some people value Christian ethics, but deny that Christianity itself is true. This makes no sense. The truth of Christian ethics is directly dependent on the truth of Christian metaphysics. If Christian metaphysics are mistaken, then the ethics that flow from those metaphysics have no basis in reality (on the Christian worldview).
Granted, it could still be the case that Christian ethics are still true in toto or in part, even if Christian metaphysics is false. But in that case, they are true in virtue of the truth of some other metaphysical worldview or meta-ethical system. So why continue to embrace these ethics as CHRISTIAN ethics if their truth is grounded in something other than Christianity? It’s one thing to affirm that Christian ethics are true even if Christianity isn’t, but it’s another thing to subscribe to Christian ethics as CHRISTIAN ethics while denying that Christianity is true.
Thinking to Believe 
March 28, 2015 at 4:37 am
Define “some people”. I’m always looking for reading material, pro and con.
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March 28, 2015 at 10:46 am
Jason:
To ……..”value Christian ethics, but deny that Christianity itself is true.”? doesn’t make sense to me either, without defining the differences the statement implies; as it stands now, since non defined terms remain one cannot comment further without knowing those terms.
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March 28, 2015 at 10:59 am
One way it could make sense:
In parallel, it’s like saying human ethics are valued but denying that humanity is true, n’est ce pas? However:
If one said that s/he values human ethics but deny humanity generally is true to those ethics, would make sense.
So then, “Some people value Christian ethics, but deny that Christianity itself is true.” (To those ethics)
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March 29, 2015 at 5:44 am
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I am “some people”. I assume that Christian ethics consist of the objective morals of the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament and Jesus’ suggestion in the New Testament that people follow the Golden Rule. The Hebrew JEDP authors of the Torah did their writing some 400-600 years before the birth of Jesus. Examples of the Golden Rule show up in Babylonian, Chinese and Greek cultures at that same time and in Egyptian carvings some 2000 years before Jesus. So, yes, it is plausible to accept the ethics espoused by Christians and not accept the metaphysics of Christianity. Those ethics were adopted from other cultures and are generally universal across most of the world’s major religions. It doesn’t take a great stretch of the imagination to envision travelers, scholarly monks or otherwise, moving back and forth between the Levant and northern India and sharing their sacred texts with others. Those shared ethics have nothing to do with the Christian metaphysics of virgin birth and resurrection from the dead. It seems a bit nitpicky to admonish “some people” for referring to Christian ethics as being CHRISTIAN, while denying the validity of Christian metaphysics. Have I missed something?
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March 29, 2015 at 9:15 am
Bob Mason:
I am always confused when people talk about metaphysics because I can never quite ubderstand what they are talking about. For example I never thought that virgin birth or resurrection of the dead to be counted among metaphysical topics because I do not believe they belong there; they belong, in my opinion, in a non existent world of paranormal and supernatural fiction, neither causes of being nor effects of causes but effects of imagination.
In my simplistic terms of definition, experiences are about physics and thinking about those experiences are metaphysics physics being the first cause, metaphysics being the effect. When I think about the experience of the pilot of flight 9525 banging on the locked cockpit door, my thoughts about it are metaphysical, the pilot’s experience, the physics of it. And I go through the whole range of emotions that experience must have wrought in him; I imagine the dread, fear, anxiety, helplessness, adrenalin rush, panic, and while the empathy is palpable it cannot compare to the reality of the last moments in plane which is only one difference removed between actuality and metaphysical.
I do not believe that ethics/morals belong to Christianity or any other religion for that matter but cherished as sacred nonetheless, welling up from the depths of humanity’s inner core; other than that I cannot say where it comes from or even IF it comes from anywhere, it just is. Life itself just is.
More than that I do not know and I believe nobody can know, is my default position; existence beyond which a greater cannot be thought, is forbidden to me. Belief holds no comfort, offers no joy, cannot be fathomed, never understood, is a complete void to be avoided. As a child Santa was too fantastic to be real and so belief has never been a companion in my life.
In university I wrote an essay for philosophy class. It was a story about three people kidnapped and held hostage; their names were Fatalist and Determinist, (twin cousins) and Free Willy; I got an “A” for the story. lol 🙂
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March 29, 2015 at 2:56 pm
Just wanted to say that I always enjoy your posts. Thank you for your work.
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March 30, 2015 at 5:46 am
Bob,
I suppose the problem is with calling the ethics, “Christian”. For if Christianity is false, then Christian ethics are not necessarily true. To that end, while the ethical values espoused by a false religion can be true, to define them as part of that religion would not ground your argument well.
Ethics have to be grounded somewhere, so if people think Christianity is false, they ought to reason a grounding of their morals. To not do so would be being intellectually lazy
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March 30, 2015 at 9:58 am
Christianity is not about ethics or moral behavior. So to me this argument is a moot point. We could debate this all night long and get nowhere…again.
Christianity is about a person – Jesus Christ. The end game is not ethics or moral behavior, it’s Life and Death.
Naz
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March 30, 2015 at 10:27 am
Scott and Naz,
To clarify, I consider the Golden Rule to be the ultimate moral guide to live one’s life by. It is also flexible enough to deal with the realities of human interactions without having to strictly abide by the uncompromising absolute morality of Commandments, Precepts or Vedas. Thus, from my perspective, Abrahamic religion morals, Buddhist morals and Hindu morals are all fundamentally derived from the Golden Rule. The fact that the Golden Rule’s existence precedes the written moral code of modern day religions by thousands, if not tens of thousands, of years of humans interacting with one another makes it suitable to serve as a basis for grounding of moral belief, at least for me.
It is thus my position that one can lead a moral existence without having to rely on organized religion to sanctify that morality. I could care less whether Christianity is true or false. People will believe what they want to believe. If religious belief helps them deal with life’s uncertainties, so be it. I don’t find it necessary.
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March 30, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Bob, I understand what you’re saying and you are correct in that “the Golden Rule” is suitable for a grounding of moral belief. This is a good thing and one would be wise to follow that precept in their lives.
That said, I want to reiterate that despite the advantages of living by the Golden Rule, it does not provide a solution to our biggest problem as human beings – Death. This is a certainty that we all will face.
I submit that the only means by which we can “survive” Death, is through Jesus Christ. He solves our biggest problem and freely offers this to those that will believe in Him. You can call it “religious belief” and disregard it, but at the end of the day, you nor anybody else has a solution to our eventual demise to the grave. Ignoring or discarding the death and resurrection of Christ does not change anything about its veracity.
As unbelievable as you may think this is, you must admit that to survive death and to live beyond the grave, there also needs to be some “unbelievable” means by which this could actually take place !
I challenge anybody to provide another answer to the Death dilemma. Before you answer, consider that any natural explanation does not have any merit based on the fact that we are not talking about anything natural with regards to life after death.
The only natural explanation for what happens after death is …worm food.
I’m a strong believer that the correct solution for a problem should fit the size and nature of a problem. Death is a BIG problem and the only solution for this problem is to look beyond the natural because there is no natural solution. We have too much scripture and human history to simply settle for “worm food”. Now if “worm food” is all a person can bring them self to believe, I pity that short-sighted individual.
Naz
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March 30, 2015 at 4:25 pm
Worm food. That’s good, I like that. Actually, though, I plan to go the cremation route. Maybe my residual inorganic ash can fertilize a tree somewhere. And it doesn’t bother me in the least bit if that is all there is at the end. Short sighted? Only if you believe the Gospels.
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March 30, 2015 at 10:45 pm
Another take on worm food & tree fertilizer:
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March 31, 2015 at 1:49 am
The consequences of death’s [both first & second] dilemma take on their most profound significance when placed in context of cause & effect. For those who hold a Biblical perspective it brings you to the core of humanity’s predicament; i.e., “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) It’s impossible to come to terms with that statement [escape the curse thus receive the gift] if you don’t acknowledge sin [the act of transgression against God resulting in separation from Him] and repent [Psalm 51]. Reasons for committing sin and refusing penitence are rooted in rebellion against God’s Divine Sovereignty. Therein lies the key because it’s only through redemption from our sin that we can be saved from the second death [Revelation 2:11, 20:6]. That redemption only comes by way of Messiah’s Blood shed upon the Cross at Golgotha and His Resurrection [John 8:24; 1Corinthians 15:1-4]. The Old Testament approaches it this way in Proverbs 10:16, “The labor of the righteous [redeemed & justified by Messiah] leads to life [Habakkuk 3:13], the wages of the wicked [reprobate rebellious towards God] to sin [and death (Revelation 20:14, 21:8)].” And as it stands, “Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive: Thou hast received gifts for men; yes, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.” (Psalm 68:18)
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March 31, 2015 at 6:18 am
“And it doesn’t bother me in the least bit if that is all there is at the end”
Bull…………
Naz
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March 31, 2015 at 8:20 am
Frank, yes, we must acknowledge the sin that has separated us from God.
However, the unbeliever must also acknowledge and realize that his state of being in sin is by default and that he did not do anything to become a sinner, we are all born sinners and have inherited this legacy from Adam.
It is more of a question of who you are in rather than an issue of behavior. When a person believes in Christ, God declares him righteous and saves Him from sin apart from any works he may do. In this state, the person that was once a sinner is now declared holy, perfect and righteous based on being “in Christ” and NOT in Adam any more. Again, through no effort of his own he is redeemed just like through no fault of his own he was condemned as a sinner being born “in Adam”.
I think this frees the unbeliever from the idea of being looked upon as a “bad person” which often pushes people away from belief in God. Once a person realizes that it is the natural default to be a sinner, it can give him hope to know that he can easily remedy this by trusting in Jesus Christ for his redemption and new perfect standing with God.
On the flip side, one who refuses this, is refusing the only means by which he can be saved and is committing the unpardonable sin in rejecting Jesus. The end is an eternity of torment separated from God. While they may scoff at this, nobody in the hereafter will ever call God unfair for offering the free gift of life to those that rejected it.
I pray that everyone will come to the knowledge of Christ and His goodness and kindness.
Naz
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March 31, 2015 at 10:32 am
Species have been coming and going from the surface of this planet for the past 3.6 billion years, with an average time to extinction of about 1 million years for each. By that reckoning, we have about 800,000 years to go before we disappear. It is only the arrogance of homo sapiens that leads them to believe that, just because they can read and write, build roads and skyscrapers and fly into space, they are entitled to something more.
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March 31, 2015 at 6:37 pm
Naz,
Being in humility allows us if we so choose to connect to Christ. “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:15, 16)
– Frank
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March 31, 2015 at 6:58 pm
For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. I have seen his ways, and will heal him; I will also lead him, and restore comforts to him and to his mourners. I create the fruit of the lips: Peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near,” says the LORD, “And I will heal him.” (Isaiah 57:15, 18, 19)
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March 31, 2015 at 9:05 pm
“However, the unbeliever must also acknowledge and realize that his state of being in sin is by default and that he did not do anything to become a sinner, we are all born sinners and have inherited this legacy from Adam.”
There is no concept on earth that is more ….”Bull”…. than this paragraph states nada, NON, Niet, No One!
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March 31, 2015 at 9:10 pm
Bob:
Early Humans Settled in Britain 800,000 Years Ago
NOV 27, 2012 03:00 AM ET // BY MARLOWE HOOD, AFP
THE GIST
– A trove of flint tools has revealed that humans arrived in Britain around 250,000 years earlier than once thought.
– The discovery implies our ancestors some 26,000 generations ago survived cooler climates without the benefit of fire or clothes.
– Early humans must have relied on hunting animals, as edible plants would have been in short supply.
Early humans migrating out of Africa adapted to freezing climes more than 800,000 years ago, far sooner than previously thought possible, according to a landmark study released Wednesday.
see more at:
http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/early-humans-britain.htm
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March 31, 2015 at 9:24 pm
Sin is what other people say you are doing that is wrong in their eyes; therefore, Jesus was a sinner according to the whole Religious community 2000 years ago: a glutton, a drunk, a blasphemer, a denier of the Sabbath, a friend to atheists, prostitutes, the poor and downtrodden. Religius insanity permeates society and there are those whose self righteous causes them to believe every word that ancient stone age men hewed into stone before they invented paper and pencils; it is quite disgusting actually that brains themselves have been turned into such solid stone that prohibits them from exercising their common sense birthright from functioning. Some humans.
Forgive them Father for they know not what they do! They have become “religious”.
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April 1, 2015 at 6:41 am
Frank, I understand what you are saying about humility but it is an interesting thought how one person can be humble and come to Christ and another cannot. I believe it is the leading of the spirit even before a person comes to the saving knowledge of Christ that does this. I don’t know why some respond and some don’t, it is a mystery but God must take full credit regardless of what we think.
Keep in mind, the OT passages were written to those under law. That is, if you do this God will do this, if you don’t do this God won’t do that. The new covenant does not operate this way. I like the passage about humility you sited in Isaiah and I am not saying it does not apply to us because I believe it does. However, we must be careful not to confuse the grace of God with our attempts to merit salvation by our behavior.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Naz
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April 1, 2015 at 8:08 am
“That is, if you do this God will do this, if you don’t do this God won’t do that. The new covenant does not operate this way.”
The OT didn’t operate that way either, it was the ancient minds of stoneage men who declared it so and IT WAS WRONG then as Jesus so aptly pointed out to the religious establishment that still operated on the ancient decrees by ancient men who were wrong then as they still are rong today; way before Jesus told them the difference.
Of course we already know what the religious establishment says to those who dare contravene their perception even though some of us today need still to echo the words of the Jesus message. But get ignored or reprimanded the same as they reprimanded Jesus who was ranting about the bigoted and erroneous way the ancients went about their business of religious stupidism. Please don’t be offended but there’s no polite way to tell people when they are wrong…..and so wrong in their denial.
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April 1, 2015 at 12:48 pm
Naz,
No doubt Salvation or justification, sanctification & glorification in the eyes of God [eternal life] is the gift of God through His GRACE [GOD’S RICHES AT CHRIST’S EXPENSE]. We receive it by faith in Messiah’s redemptive work on the Cross alone. Our good works derive from a saving faith. They are the fruit of genuine productive faith in Christ. They determine our Inheritance as children of God when we are raised by Yahshua at the last day [Revelation 11:18, 22:12].
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/faithandworks2.htm
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Jam/Jam_002.cfm?a=1148014
– Frank
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April 2, 2015 at 5:57 am
“They determine our Inheritance as children of God when we are raised by Yahshua at the last day ”
Frank, our works do not determine our inheritance. Inheritance is something we are given freely from the death of someone. In this case, from the death of Jesus.
If you are talking the degree or amount of inheritance or “rewards” this is a false notion. All the saints are given the same inheritance, eternal life. There is nothing more you need other than that. To think there are “levels” or rewards is a dangerous concept that will lead believers into a more works based approach and not being led by the Spirit in the grace of God. Please clarify what you mean if I am wrong. Thanks.
Naz
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April 2, 2015 at 10:14 am
Naz,
I never spoke of “degrees”, “levels” or “amounts”. The point is each of us is an individual made in the image, after the likeness of God. That speaks to how we relate to Yahshua and He relates to us: as individuals who if we place our complete faith/trust in Him shall spend eternity serving Him [Revelation 11:18, 14:12, 15:3]. My statement is made in the context of Revelation 21:7 – “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.”
Please read the link I included in post # 24 from jesusplusnothing.com which explains the view I hold concerning the relationship amongst grace, faith & works. Also refer to the commentary provided on James 2:14-26 in the second link for further clarification.
– Frank
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April 2, 2015 at 1:46 pm
“What James is emphasizing is that we are not saved by a faith of words only, but by the kind of faith which results in good works”
Frank, this was a statement in the first link which I would like to comment….
While I agree with this statement that faith will result in good works, we must look at the context of the works that James is talking about to be absolutely clear on this.
James references Abraham and his sacrifice of Issac as the works that justified Abraham. Surely the attempt of sacrificing Issac proved Abraham’s faith. Now I must ask the question, how many times did Abraham sacrifice Issac ? Only once. Rahab is also mentioned and again what she did as a proof of her faith was only done once.
I believe the context shows that the works that James is talking about is not a life long track record of good works. Rather, the works that James is talking about is about an action or a response that accompanies genuine faith and not just head knowledge. This could be different for every person depending on one’s life situation, circumstances etc…
To base the genuineness of one’s faith on their life long track record is treading on dangerous ground. Surely we all stumble in many ways as even James says, but the stumbling does not discount our faith. The enemy wants us to keep short records of our sins and failures so he can accuse us. We cannot fall into this trap but realize that we are completely holy and made perfect by the one sacrifice of Jesus and that only through Him is there justification and sanctification. My record or performance is not in the equation.
It’s Jesus + NOTHING !
Thanks for the discussion. Happy Easter to you.
Naz
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April 2, 2015 at 5:51 pm
Naz,
I see your point and do agree that as to our declaration of justification before the Almighty our performance has absolutely no impact. Our penalty for sin has been fully paid by Messiah’s death & resurrection [Isaiah 53].
When I think of rewards & inheritance in the Kingdom to come I think of faithfulness, crowns & seven specific promises made by Yahshua Himself.
God bless you for He is Risen!
– Frank
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April 2, 2015 at 8:25 pm
So Christian; so religious; so dogmatic; so blind.
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April 2, 2015 at 8:27 pm
You guys are so ridiculous in your religon, you are pathetic in the real world.
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April 2, 2015 at 8:51 pm
……..”Salvation or justification, sanctification & glorification. “so religious….so sound; and so, for what?
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April 3, 2015 at 2:27 am
I believe just the opposite. If you’re not afraid to take in ALL the information (knowledge & wisdom,) you find that events in the Bible obviously happened . . . but the way different groups interpret that into their own morals & rules is what causes not only wars but dis-owning family members & political fighting.
Christ’s ACTUAL teachings are to stop from strictly adhering to Moses-type laws & use common sense feelings of treating each other lovingly, & most important: fairly. Discrimination is wrong period.
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April 3, 2015 at 7:28 am
Oh, thank God. The Pope says I can still make it to heaven. You guys had me worried for a sec.
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077
Although I still haven’t figured out what happens to the billions of souls who came and went before Jesus was born. Can someone explain?
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April 3, 2015 at 10:07 am
macsimillian:
Thanks a million. You are so right. Christians should be thankful that Jesus was born but no they are thnakful that he died so then he could live in the miracle bubble forever.
That blood had to be shed for the atonement of sins is the second biggest hunk of bull humanity has had to suffer at the hands of religious despots and rulers ego, in their struggle for power. For the shedding of blood by religious wingjobs is the justification needed by reliigous leaders.
It was a pre-Pharisaical and post Pharisaical legacy handed down through religous circles time and again to justify killing people just as it is used today around the world by the killing groups separating Muslims from non Muslims gunning down school children in the Kenyan University. Killing kids in the name of religious insanity, spilling the blood of 147 children for the atonement of the sins of the fanatics.
And Christian every year celebrate the shedding of blood of a crucified man so they can live happily ever after the minds of Christian who, if wisdon, knowledge and commonsense were little pieces of wood, they would not have enough to rub among them for friction sufficient to spark a fire.
Their concept of heaven and the concept of bloodletting are hung out to dry in the supernatural sunlight of darkness. It is hard to fathom why they become so addicted to the Drug of Absolute Certainty that if you get hooked on it and if you keep taking it, you too could wake up one day, so full of righteousness that suddenly the only thing that makes sense to you anymore is somebody else’s death for the atonment of sins OMG. And you’ll realize that your mind is no longer your best friend. When the onlt thing between your ears is a head full of scriptures randomly selected to prove they point the way about everything they say.
Thank goodness for the birth of men who taught against the very things that Christians actually believe; the same things that those Scribes and Pahrisees who crucified Jesus believed, Christians are modern Pharisees holding dearly to the paths of the Mosaic Laws of Stupidism.
It is worth noting again just how the hammer hit the nail when maximillian stated: “Christ’s ACTUAL teachings are to stop from strictly adhering to Moses-type laws & use common sense feelings of treating each other lovingly, & most important: fairly. Discrimination is wrong period.”
Those are words that truly bless people!
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April 3, 2015 at 5:24 pm
It’s all about revelation & education by Scripture to know there’s a Holy, Righteous, Immutable God:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)
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April 3, 2015 at 7:10 pm
“Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves moneybags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.” (Luke 12:33)
“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (Luke 12:34)
Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” (Mark 10:21)
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April 3, 2015 at 7:52 pm
Unfortunately you have substituted a relationship to Jesus to a relationship to church, a relationship to religion, a relationship to supernatural, a relationship to scolastic academia. Why can you not get it through your head that Jesus was never “religious”, “dogmatic”, “churchy”, “supernatural”, “superstitious” and only used scripture to make points others failed to understand because of their religion, dogma, church, supernaturalism, superstition as perpetuated bythe clergy? What?
You mean we are now doing now exactly what the Scribes and Pharisees were doing then, that caused the clergy to seek out for capture, arrest, torture and silence of anyone who would testify that their interpretation of scripture and works thereof, were evil? What?
Your words are the words of the Scribes and Pharisees with the adjunct “Jesus” incorporated into it. So far from reality that your attempt is a shameful admission that you know nothing about Jesus’ message nor understand a thing he taught.
You are like a well cooked meal without salt, without spice, bland and fruitless. Yeah, you might be filled in your stomach with the words but your taste on the way there is void if not slim to none.
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April 6, 2015 at 6:12 pm
But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him, and in My name his horn shall be exalted. (Psalm 89:24)
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April 6, 2015 at 6:24 pm
Frank:
Give it up; it is meaningless no matter how many scriptures you quote; your tutor in the nether world does not exist anymore than the messages that purport to come from him. These Psalms may be lamentations from David for the terrible atrocities he rendered to others for his own fleshly desires. Oh sure we all have fleshly desires but when you take the lives of others in order to fulfil your sexual desires; yes, it speaks to the heart of humanity but it does not speak niceties. Just because it is in the bible as a tribute to Kings; it is an offense that shows the extent that religion justifies its savage acts.
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April 6, 2015 at 6:25 pm
Who can believe a thing David says?
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April 9, 2015 at 9:22 pm
For the LORD gives wisdom: out of His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: He is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. (Proverbs 2:6, 7)
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