It was announced last week that another King Hezekiah bulla has been found (initially discovered in 2009). This is a small clay seal (13×12 millimeters) used by Hezekiah to seal and authenticate a document. It was molded around the strings that tied the document shut. In fact, we can still see the impression from the fibers on this bulla.
We already had eight other bullae bearing King Hezekiah’s name, but they were unprovenanced. This new bulla was uncovered during an official excavation at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem by Dr. Eliat Mazar. It reads, “Belonging to Hezekiah, (son of) Ahaz, king of Judah.”
There’s a nice video on the find here.
The discovery of this bulla should remind us again that the Bible is not a book of fairy tales. It is written as history, and archaeological finds such as this prove that it is based on real historical people and real historical events.
Thinking to Believe 
December 6, 2015 at 5:03 pm
Hi Jason!
I heard about this great news on Radio station KSFO and I appreciate that you also are posting it!! Thank you, you are the best!
What’s especially wonderful about this Archaeological Find is that it not only proves the Bible correct again, but it goes on to further prove the pre-1948 existence of the Nation of Israel.
I LOVE IT!
God is always faithful!!
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December 7, 2015 at 5:17 am
No one disputes the accuracy of the historical accounts of rule of the kings of the twelve tribes of Israel. What is in dispute is when you extrapolate that history to imply the absolute accuracy of the entire Bible. It is a major stretch of the imagination to accept a six day creation of the universe we live in, a flooding of the entire planet, walking on water and rising from the dead. You lose credibility when you insist these are not allegorical stories, but are instead absolute fact. Your credibility if further diminished when you agree with, or refrain from refuting, the even further extrapolated claims that planet earth is 6000 years old, dinosaurs went for a ride in Noah’s ark and there are ocean fossils on mountain tops because God put them there. There is a point where such “facts” do indeed become fairy tales.
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December 7, 2015 at 6:02 am
Jason, I am taking this opportunity to use your posting about the find of King Hezekiah Bulla so please bear with me as I use your post to lead into something I believe you all know is of the utmost importance to everybody who has any concern about what the world is actually facing today amnd I am talking about live before death not after.
While artifacts can prove historical accuracy, it does not prove biblical imaginations which are fancied in the thoughts of humans as BM clearly points out. However there is clear evidence that people of Faith ARE required to put this heartfelt faith into scientific perspective along with conceptual necessities such as Peace, Justice and Morality regardless of where it is grounded.
This has come to light most recently at the Climate Change Summit taking place in Paris and something that is missed too many times by Faith Bloggers when it comes to pushing Faith people into translating their Faith into earthbound reality instead of living constantly in a heaven bound fantasy from where nothing will come of it until you are dead! FOR EXAMPLE: The following article, affects all life on planet earth in the here and now, current and present today and people of Faith are needed if they really have a creation care mindset and I believe that you do:
SCIENTISTS ENLIST THE BIG GUN TO GET CLIMATE ACTION: FAITH
Scripps Institution of Oceanography scientist Veerabhadran Ramanathan, a non-Catholic who advised Pope Francis on climate and is on the pontiff’s science academy, says he thinks this new alliance will play a major role in what he hopes will be a historic agreement.
The world will not act enough on climate change, Ramanathan said, “until we teach this in every church, every mosque, every synagogue, every temple.”
Look at climate science not as an academic issue but an issue of justice, because those who are hurt the most by climate change are the world’s poorest 3 billion.
Joe Ware of Christian Aid wrote in an email from the Paris talks. “Increasingly (Climate Science) has looked to faith groups for help in mobilizing a broader movement of people calling for action on climate change. They are actually natural allies as almost all faiths have a theology of creation care at their heart.”
Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of
Sciences, said Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato Si is less about ecology than morality and fairness.
“Climate change is a global problem with serious social, environmental, economic, distributional and political dimensions, and poses one of the greatest challenges for humanity,” the bishop said Saturday. “The poor populations are the most severely affected even though they are the least responsible.”
Physicist John Schellnhuber, founder of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, said he has been coming to these international talks for 11 years and essentially seen negotiators throw up their hands and say “sorry guys we tried our best.” And no one protested. But this time, with the power of Pope Francis’ encyclical earlier this year calling global warming a moral issue and an even more energized interfaith community, Schellnhuber feels the world’s faithful are watching and will hold world leaders accountable.
“They know they will be measured against the encyclical,” Schellnhuber, a member of the Vatican’s Pontifical Academy of Sciences, said Saturday at a Catholic Church event. Ever the scientist, Schellnhuber said on Saturday he hadn’t seen any evidence yet during the first week of negotiations that this will happen, but he has faith it will.
In the first five days of climate negotiations, interfaith activists came, fasted, talked to media, buttonholed leaders and prayed. On Saturday night in a downtown Paris chapel, hundreds of people, many of them prostrated on the ground, sang and prayed for the climate negotiators and mostly for the world.
Faith “is much deeper” than science, said Caroline Bader of the Geneva-based Lutheran World Federation.
And so are their numbers. Bader said interfaith leaders recently handed top United Nations negotiators a petition with 1.8 million signatures begging for meaningful climate action. Such action was also sought by Brother Alois Taize, a Catholic member of the ecumenical monastery, as he was preaching at the song-laden service about how the faithful and the world have to open their eyes to solutions to global warming.
Marcia McNutt, a former U.S. Geological Survey director and Science magazine editor who is about to become the head of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, can’t say enough about the importance of the pope’s message.
“You can argue the science until cows come home, but that just appeals to people’s intellect,” McNutt said. “The pope’s argument appeals to someone’s heart. Whenever you appeal to someone’s heart that’s a much more powerful message.”
In some ways, the enlisting of the faith movement is a sign of scientists’ desperation, but it’s also a realization of the need for a moral revolution on climate, said Ramanathan, who actually briefed the pope on climate in a parking lot.
Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-enlist-big-gun-climate-211637290.html
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December 7, 2015 at 11:37 am
For those that doubt the accuracy and truthfulness of the bible consider that it is beyond doubt that it’s historical accuracy is not in question as Jason has posted another example of this in this post.
That said, to dismiss the miraculous and prophetic elements that are laced throughout the scriptures and throughout the historical narrative really leaves one to wonder why such writings that contain so much reliable historical information be riddled with fairy tales and other accounts that are not truthful.
On face value it doesn’t make logical sense to doubt the accuracy of the bible when the historical content is so reliable. What I am trying to say is that even though you may not believe in a 6000 year old earth, a world wide flood, walking on water, the resurrection of the dead etc…all of these events are contained within a reliable historical book. No matter how agnostic or unbelieving a person is, this has to make one think seriously if even for a moment…what if….
Naz
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December 7, 2015 at 12:07 pm
GREAT Post Naz!
I agree 100%
As far as “Climate Change” (a.k.a AlGore’s Global Warming) being the greatest threat to mankind?………
………..now THAT’S a FairyTale! (more like one-world government control)
What’s comical is just about every time AlGore would hold a world conference on Global Warming, they would get hit with an ice storm / blizzard.
God DOES have a sense of humor! 😀
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December 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Naz:
“….this has to make one think seriously if even for a moment…” It does Naz, we think about it even for a moment and then, we dismiss the dung and keep the diamonds without neglecting the possibility that historical references maybe are accurate even if we cannot prove by knowledge we remain open to that. But when the bible calls magic tricks miracles; well, you just have to think about that even for a moment. Walking in water is more appropriate and understood than walking on water
By the way a lot of books of fiction are intertwined with historical facts which usually has a glossary of actual places, people and events based on a true story Take the movie the Titanic, do you suppose the characters in the movie reflect the accuracy of the entire movie without embellishment?
Obviously Elaine knows nothing about Climate Change or Island people needing to move to higher ground as the rising ocean eats away at the fragile ecosystems of low level Islands, the Polar winters warming, the glacier melts. and the Climate Change Summit 2015, Nov 30-Dec 11 and why there is the largest gathering of world leaders in history representing 195 countries around the world sponsored by the United Nations, not Al Gore.
Anybody who operates purely on a belief system that discounts knowledge as Elaine who is acting on this principle speaking frivolously, and with a wanton indulgence of whims, not only discounts the great scientists of the world, the Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings and Church Leaders attending but the 1.8 million Christian signatories of the Petition given to the United Nations at the start of COP21 begging for for meaningful climate action.
It is the kind of nonsense that she can claim “…every time Al Gore would hold a world conference on Global Warming, they would get hit with an ice storm / blizzard.” Offering God’s sense of humor for hitting them with ice storms and blizzards. That’s the kind of sentimental absurd nonsense we hear again and again from believers as if that proves their credibility or indeed a sense of humor. It’s a sad commentary.
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December 7, 2015 at 1:57 pm
Leo, my logic tells me that if I can’t take the miraculous portions of the bible as truthful then why should I believe any of the historical facts are truthful as well?
The historical portions were often written by the same people that penned the miraculous portions. If they were writing fairy tales then isn’t the historical account a fairy tale as well ?
You need to ask yourself why a legitimate historical writer include “fairy tales” within the historical narrative ? It just doesn’t make sense. This is not Greek mythology where we know the whole thing is one big fairy tale from start to finish. The bible is the most esteemed book in the world and is the all time best seller.
Think about it…..for more than a moment this time…..
Naz
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December 7, 2015 at 3:05 pm
Your assumption is wrong, Naz. J, E, D and P are different authors of the Torah, writing at different times, with different emphases and interests. As for the New Testament, I believe authorship was 30-200 years after the fact and designed to add an aura of “my God is better than your God” to the new cult of Christianity. Come to think of it, that probably applies to the Torah as well. P added Genesis 1 to the holy scriptures during the forced resettlement of the northern tribes of Israel into Babylon. P’s god created the universe in 6 days, while the Babylonian god Marduk took much longer.
You should read more. Karen Armstrong’s The Great Transformation would be a good place to start.
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December 7, 2015 at 4:33 pm
Naz:
Common sense makes no sense to a believer; the believer is content to put knowledge and common sense so far on the top shelf you would need a ladder to reach it but you have already cut the ladder in pieces so it would be useless.
I can’t remember how many times I have used this same example directly from the bible but you still ignore it so I’ll tell you again.
Miracles are considered to be the first inclination of the believer because they have been indoctrinated in a schooling of superstition and the supernatural usually as young children from birth and beyond.
Go to Exodus 7:9 and you can easily see that the first miracle God told Moses to perform, (not God, mind you, but the priest or Holy person fulfilling the role as he or the establishment determined must be fulfilled by a man acting out the God role because God did not speak directly to anybody but through a so called Prophet or Holy Man so appointed or self appointed.
So Moses was told by this self appointed intermediary(God speaking of course) that when Pharaoh asks for a miracle to “prove” the power of Moses’ God then cast down the staff etc etc turning it into a snake. And then in Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the “LORD” had said.
So the reality of Moses’ miracle was merely a magic trick that was easily replicated by Pharoah’s court magicians thus rendering miracles as an obtuse religious term that means nothing except a magic trick, pseudo psychological placebos practiced incessantly in Christian circles by the likes of scoundrel carnival barkers such as Peter Popoff; or, events of common sense that Jesus, for example, was able to perform that shocked the people who themselves were inclined first to superstition and the supernatural before common sense, being totally brainwashed by theologians who are experts in the unknowable and the deceit of paranormal speak.
When the natural man writes a message that the natural man cannot understand miracles, he must necessarily talk about himself so how then can a natural man understand anything he is talking about? He cannot. It’s merely religious-speak, church-speak, clergy-speak, dogma-speak and I don’t accept a word of it.
Jesus never performed a miracle and everything he ever did is easily explained by common sense but followers of Christianity don’t follow Jesus, they follow the Pharisaical supernatural smooth talkers.
Naz how can you fail to understand the simplicity of your own biblical text when miracles and magic tricks are interchangeable, one and the same?
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December 8, 2015 at 12:38 am
Dear “I’m NOT” (there is only one “I AM” and you’re not it.)
I often find myself wondering why people like you spend so much time & energy trying to disprove another person’s belief.
For instance, I think atheism is foolish and ignorant. All you have to do is look through the Hubble, or into a microscope, witness the miracle of birth or the workings of the human body & mind…… and COMMON SENSE tells you that there is a Divine Designer.
The smallest, most itty bitty memory chip has a designer and yet you think that this universe and all that it contained doesn’t does not have a Designer? How foolish is that?
So while I think atheism is foolish and ignorant, I not going to waste my time visiting atheist forums & atheist blogs and try to convince them otherwise.
That is time wasted & ill spent.
I also find on the Yahoo Comments section, there is a group of atheists who swarm in like locusts, trying to convince anybody who will hear them that the Bible is nothing but “fairy tales” and that God is an imaginary “sky daddy.”
Isn’t that just ignorant? Isn’t that just a waste of time, to rattle on & on about somebody they don’t believe in?
Hmmm, I’d rather spend my time & energy into exploring and learning more about what I DO believe in and the God Who I hold dear to my heart.
Oh yes, Jesus (Who is the One True God) did perform miracles and He still does today.
I have experienced many miracles in my life
Two stand out right now in my mind.
I guess I drank too much coffee and not enough water, because I developed a kidney stone and it woke me up with the most excruciating pain….worse than childbirth.
It was around 2:00am Fri night/Sat morning. Our three kids were little & asleep, so I convinced my husband that I could drive the 4 miles to Kaiser myself, while he stayed home with them.
It was black outside, no moon light whatsoever. I drive down Saratoga and just before I drive over the 280 overpass, I see an accident that looks to be three cars who crashed into each other…they in such a way that all three right lanes were blocked and the only way I could get past (because the emergency vehicles had not yet arrived) was to go into the oncoming lane.
Only problem was, cars were oncoming! Adding to that, I was at level TEN pain…it was horrendous. I slowed down to almost a stop, and screamed “JESUS” because of the pain and because I could not proceed forward…..all I felt was panic & pain really really BAD,
All of the sudden a car appeared right in front of me (out of nowhere)…it was the whitest car, almost iridescent white and it was as if it pulled my vehicle with some type of unseen chain or rope into the oncoming lane and in between oncoming cars.
I don’t even remember steering, all I could do in my horrible pain was fix my eyes on that bright white car.
Then I felt it pull me back into my lane and up to the Kiely Blvd turn signal and then it was gone. I mean GONE.
I felt God’s Presence so strong that even in the horrendous pain, I felt Him holding me till I reached Kaiser. This happed over 20 years ago and I still remember it as if it happened yesterday..it is forever imprinted into my mind & soul.
Another…..
In 2007 I tripped on some old railroad tracks in Aptos, and fell full force on cobblestones, right smack on my elbows (because I pulled up to cover my face0….it was a downgrade and I was going down HARD!. Went to Kaiser and again, in excruciating pain…….pain so bad that even morphine barely touched it.
Xrays showed two broken & smashed elbows and I had to wear braces to keep them in place, though I could remove them to dress, which was also excruciatingly painful.
Fast forward one week, pain still so bad.
The following Sunday I’m standing in church and realized that I had forgotten my pain meds…it was as if ball ping hammers were hammering my elbow. People around me were standing & singing…….I felt like sobbing from the pain.
I turned around to my friend and asked her..”Leeann, please pray for me, I cannot take this pain.” So she started praying, meanwhile my friend Donna who was playing keyboard saw and came down and stood next to Leeann and she prayed too, in the Name of Jesus.
After they prayed, there was a slow edging away of the pain till I felt nothing. I was scared to move my arms in any way for fear that the pain might return, yet I felt such a warmth on my elbows….it was very peaceful.
No more pain at all. I thanked but I was still scared to move them.
Got home and slowly removed my braces…no pain…..then slowly rotated my arms at the elbow, no pain…..did it again, no pain……then like a crazy woman, I rotated my arms like a windmill……..no pain! All of the pain was completely gone and I had 100% full use of my elbows….it was a miracle of Jesus.
That following day I had a week follow up appointment to see the orthopedic Doc and when he saw that I had no braces, he had a fit…..especially when I started rotating my arms like I was about to take flight…….I was laughing and crying at the same time saying…”Doc, it was a miracle, it was a miracle”…and all he could say was “this is amazing, this is amazing!”
He took new xrays and sure enough, he saw the lines on my elbows where there has not only been a break, but that it has healed perfectly. PERFECTLY…..I needed absolutely no physical therapy because I was 100% healed.
He would not say the word “miracle” after I told him how I had been prayed for, but over & over he kept saying “amazing!”
I can go on & on with more miracles and countless times of feeling the Presence of God so strong, feeling His comfort and strength in time of loss & sorrow, in times of sickness and in trials……never ever feeling alone or in utter despair and I mean NEVER.
Have I ever felt sad, mad, hurt or irritated by trials in life?…..you bet, but I know they all serve a purpose to make me a stronger person and perhaps to help others…..but through my darkest hours, I feel Him and His love & strength.
I don’t care if ISIS put a knife to my throat, I could never ever I deny the existence and the reality of Jesus Christ….not after all that I have experienced.
So I said all of that to say to you……you came much too late to convince me that there is no God and that He (Jesus) cannot perform miracles.
God is love, God is holy and God is ONE.
Perhaps you will mock what I say, laugh it off, and attempt to explain it away with foolish humanistic logic….but you can’t…….you do not possess that ability….not now and not ever.
Fact is, one day life will throw you a curve ball that will shake you to your marrow & rock your world ….and only GOD will be the One to get you through it…….I truly hope you’ll call on His Name….Jesus.
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December 8, 2015 at 6:44 am
Bob, you misunderstood my statement about authorship. I am not saying all of the Torah or new testament had the same author who penned the words.
All I am saying is that the ones who wrote the historical accounts also wrote about the miraculous events as well. For example Luke gave very accurate historical accounts while at the same time testifying to the miraculous works of Christ.
You cannot separate or take away the miraculous content of the scriptures from the scriptures and still view it as a legitimate historical narrative. The miraculous is so intertwined that to disregard it would force one to disregard the whole thing. It’s all or nothing, you can’t read the bible and ignore the miraculous and pretend you are reading credible history.
It’s like reading the book of Proverbs and ignoring all the passages about God and just focusing on the humanistic side. It doesn’t make sense, the same author that wrote about the wisdom of how we are to treat others is the same author writing about the providence of God.
You cannot cherry pick the bible and throw out the parts you don’t like or don’t believe. If you do that, as some have done, you then create your own version. If that’s the case then you might as well read Peter Pan because you are wasting your time reading the bible.
Naz
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December 8, 2015 at 8:06 am
It comes down to a question of credibility. Are the people who wrote the historical accounts of the biblical narrative credible ?
No archaeological discovery has ever contradicted the biblical record so we should all be able to agree that the historical accounts in the bible are accurate. If one concedes this, then one must then ask the important question of how and why are the scriptures riddled with miraculous events intertwined within the historical narrative ?
For what reason or purpose would people of antiquity make stories up and add them to the factual historical account ? Now if we were talking about Greek Mythology then certainly they could make anything up. But we are talking about extremely accurate and factual writings filled with references to actual places, people, detailed genealogies, events etc…
I am not saying that a person should believe in God based on this alone. But I think if a person is honest, he should admit that it is compelling and worth noting that such writings of ancient history are filled with references to God and the miraculous as the norm. You are not forced to believe it but it’s there and it can’t be deleted or ignored as some would like to do.
So for the unbeliever, I think he has no option but to resort to all sorts of conspiracy theories of how the writings were tampered with for some sort of religious agenda. To this sort of speculation there is no end and one can just let their imagination cook up all sorts of ideas that suits their fancy.
Naz
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December 8, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Elaine I cannot discount your experiences, unexplained events happen to many of us.
John 10:33-38 The religious said, “We’re not criticizing you for anything good you said, but for what you said—this blasphemy of calling yourself, ‘I AM’.”
Jesus said, “I’m only quoting your inspired Scriptures, where God said, ‘I tell you—you are gods.’ (Psalm 82:6-7) If God called your ancestors ‘gods’—and Scripture doesn’t lie—why do you accuse the unique One the Father consecrated and sent into the world, just because I said, I AM or ‘I am the Son of God’? If I don’t say the things my Father says, well and good; don’t believe me. But if I am saying them, put aside for a moment what you hear me say about myself and just take the evidence of the words that are right before your eyes. Then perhaps things will come together for you, and you’ll see that not only are we saying the same thing, we are the same—Father and Son; Son and Father. He is in me; I am in him”; therefore, I AM here.
Let’s just grant that there is an omniscient god who occasionally authors books. And he’s going to give us a book, the most useful book. He’s a loving god, compassionate, and he’s going to give us a guide to life. He’s got a scribe and the scribe’s going to write it down. What’s going to be in that? I mean just think of how good a book would be if it were authored by an omniscient deity.
YET there are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves, about who to kill and why. There’s nothing about electricity, there’s nothing about DNA, there’s nothing about infectious disease, about the principles of infectious disease.
There’s nothing particularly useful other than theosophical ruminations and reasonable proverb messages to ponder and there’s a lot of iron age barbarism in there and superstition. This is not a candidate book. Humanity is an evolutionary work in progress still.
What could be more dehumanizing than the view that most of the people,
(many billions) most of the time by virtue of the fact that they were born in the wrong place, to the wrong parents, given the wrong theology, exposed to the wrong intellectual influences, were nevertheless crucially responsible for the fact they didn’t believe in God or believed in the wrong God and therefore as a result deserve to be burned in fire for eternity. That is not humanizing us, not edifying us but dehumanizing us with division like nationalism and ethnicity.
You see religion on a hundred fronts losing the argument with science. On the front of human health and disease; you know, it use to be that you could get a diagnosis of demonic possession.
I mean that was a reasonable thing to believe you had if you were having seizures because we didn’t know, only had a belief system based on the supernatural and superstitious models from the Ancients, but now we have the science of neurology and we know about epilepsy so now when your kid has seizures, you know you don’t go to the church to get him diagnosed and treated by exorcism and so that’s a good thing.
We will understand spiritual experience so well at some point at the level of the brain, at the level of changing attention in certain ways can change human experience, we’ll understand it in a way that makes a mockery of this kind of denominational religious talk about miracles, Jesus and Buddha and magic powers that will break down in the same way it has broken down on medicine and that’s a process that we have to be honest about and let unfold.
It’s commonly imagined that atheists think there’s nothing beyond human life and human understanding. The truth is that atheists are free to admit that there’s much about the universe that we don’t understand. I mean it is obvious that we don’t understand the universe. But it is even more obvious that the bible does not reflect our best understanding.
There could be life on other planets, complex life, technically accomplished civilizations, I mean just imagine a civilization a million years old as opposed to just a few thousand, atheists are free to imagine this possibility. They’re also free to admit that if such brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the bible is going to be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.
It’s often imagined that atheists are, in principle, closed to spiritual experience, but the truth is, there’s nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing self transcending love or ecstasy or rapture or awe. In fact there’s nothing that prevents an atheist from going into a cave for a year or a decade and practicing meditation like a proper mystic. What atheists don’t tend to do is make unjustified and unjustifiable claims about the cosmos on the basis of those experiences.
There’s no question that disciplines like meditation and prayer can have a profound effect on the human mind. But do the positive experiences of, say, christian mystics over the ages suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely, because while Christians have been having these experiences but so have Buddhists, so have Muslims and even Atheists. So there’s a deeper reality here and it makes a mockery of religious denominations.
The fact is that whenever human beings make an honest effort to get at the truth they reliably transcend the accidents of their birth and upbringing. It would be absurd to speak of Christian physics, though the Christians may have invented physics, and it would be absurd to speak of Muslim algebra although the Muslims may have invented algebra. It will one day be absurd to speak of Christian or Muslim ethics or spirituality.
Whatever is true about our ethical and spiritual circumstance in ethical and spiritual terms is discoverable now. And can be articulated without offending all that we have come to understand about the nature of the universe. And certainly without making divisive claims about the unique sanctity of any book, or pegging these most beautiful features of our lives to rumors of ancient or modern miracles.
Every one of our specific sciences has superseded and surpassed the wisdom of scripture, from cosmology, to psychology to economics. We know more about ourselves than anyone writing the bible and that is a distinctly inconvenient fact for anyone wanting to believe that this book was dictated by the creator of the universe. sharris
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December 8, 2015 at 1:07 pm
Ok….right now I just don’t have the time to address your entire reply, but I cannot ignore the first sentence…….
“Elaine I cannot discount your experiences, unexplained events happen to many of us.”
Since I refuse to refer to you as “I AM” , I will call you Joe… unless you prefer another name. But Joe is always nice (unless you’re a female)
OK Joe…..yes, unexplained events happen all the time, like losing a sock in the dryer.
But in my situation, it is completely explained…….Upon asking Him in both situations, Jesus healed my elbows (x-rays don’t lie) ….and Jesus used a manifestation of a “bright white car” to lead me out of danger….fact.
And those are just TWO instances of miracles by Jesus in my own life…….I could offer quite a lengthy list, trust me.
If you don’t want to believe that, that is your problem, not mine and I don’t say that in a mean way…..it’s just the way it is.
OK….I need to get back to work.
Take care and have a good day.
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December 9, 2015 at 5:31 am
Wow, Elaine! To heal broken and smashed bones in a week or less is extraordinary, maybe even miraculous. Broken bones in children usually require about 6 weeks to heal. In adults that increases to 10-12 weeks. When I was 2, I broke my right tibia when I fell down the front porch steps. I don’t remember the fall, but my mother never said I healed quickly after that, so I assume I was in a cast for 6 weeks. I can, however, confirm that the longer healing time is required for an adult, having broken a collar bone three times over a span of 25 years of training and competing in triathlons and U.S. Cycling Federation bicycle races. So, when someone says they healed a broken bone in a week, I have to ask myself if that is believable. The answer is no. Is that my problem? Actually, no, it isn’t, it’s yours. I could go search the technical literature for similar examples of such rapid healing, but I suspect that would be an exercise in futility. The probability of finding documented examples of such an occurrence is likely to be very, very close to zero. But then, the burden of proof isn’t on me, it’s on you.
In discussing miracles in his books, TV appearances and public forums, Carl Sagan used to say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Scientists publish the results of their work through a peer review process. Other equally knowledgeable scientists and editors review the work to assure the information presented is logical and consistent and the claims and data support the hypotheses of the study. This is the self correcting mechanism that science uses to verify hypotheses and refute or support the hypotheses of others, thus weeding out the weak explanations of natural phenomena and expanding on the stronger ones. Claims that are way outside what is normally encountered in the course of the human experience require an extraordinary level of verifying documentation.
That said, do you have before and after x-rays to support your claim? Your doctor must have been astounded by your results. Did he publish his observations in a medical journal? Did a journalist from the local TV station or newspaper interview you? Surely the general public would have been extremely interested in your experience. Did your minister add a paragraph of two to the Sunday bulletin to demonstrate to power of prayer? Yes? No? Maybe?
It’s not personal. It’s merely my training as a scientist and my understanding of how science uses methodological naturalism to explain the physical world. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to move them from miracle status to accepted fact. Word of mouth doesn’t meet that standard.
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December 9, 2015 at 6:12 am
Elaine, thank you for sharing your story of your miraculous encounters with the Lord. As I suspected, the naysayers are out in full force.
Elaine has provided her burden of proof, the doctors acknowledged it also based on the x-rays.
The burden of proof is on the naysayers to proof it otherwise.
By the way, the tomb is still empty…..
Naz
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December 9, 2015 at 9:00 am
Bob Mason!
Good morning and thank you and I truly mean THANK YOU!
Your comment was awesome in a way that even I didn’t expect!
After reading your words and looking at my elbows and knowing what my Doc said ….and what the before & after the x-rays showed…you are so right, it should not have even happened. It is an impossibility, yet it happened!
In fact you explained in more detail than even my Doc did on how it should not have happened! Not that I needed any more convincing of the impossibility of it, but you somehow increased my thankfulness to God!!!!
I’ve reached to kiss the inside of my elbows all morning after reading your post and the name for my elbows today are…”My two miracles” and in my praise to God for His love and kindness to me, a floodgate of memories came to my heart….memories of other miracles and the measure of His love and care for me!
Oh wow, I can share how God took me from the streets of Oakland & Berkeley & drug addiction, how I was almost shot execution-style with a gun to my head by an ex-con drug dealer…how I was on my knees and the gun to my head, all alone with this man and all of the sudden he saw SOMETHING that SCARED THE KRAP OUT OF HIM to where he ran, and yet, NOBODY was around and I mean nobody!!!…….but after my conversion, and reflecting back to that incident, I KNEW that God showed him perhaps a few warrior angels or SOMETHING completely changed the scenario , because in God’s foreknowledge, He knew that given the chance, that one day I would love & serve Him! 🙂 🙂 🙂
The times that in my foolishness, I should have died in many other ways, but I survived and it’s beyond normal understanding on how I made it! Or the time 2 years ago when I had stage 4 Sepsis and I should not have lived, or the time 4 years ago when after hitting my head very hard playing with my 85-lb Lab doggy and how cataracts developed in both of my eyes! And then a detached retina developed and I almost lost my left eye and yet with all of those eye problems & multiple surgeries and the near death with stage 4 Sepsis, how God used those experiences to teach me life lessons that I could have never learned unless I went through those trials!! 🙂
How almost losing my sight, that I can feel the Presence of God while even looking at a simple leaf, or the sparkles in a rock…THAT gets me excited!! Because when you almost lose your sight and then it is restored, you see & appreciate God’s creation even more…even down to the teeny things!
And then, how in intensive care, how I felt the Arms of God around me, carrying me through with absolutely NO FEAR whatsoever…….not even when I almost died of Sepsis, the sweet taste of death and crossing from life on earth to eternal life with Jesus was an experience that I will never forget……..but it wasn’t my time, but through it all, it completely took any fear of death from my soul!!! All of that was a GIFT to me!!!!
I have found that the sweetest times are when darkness has surrounded me and voices whisper in my ear that my God does not exist or that He does not care about me, or that the pain is only going to get worse…..
………….many times ONLY in those dark experiences that I see the SPARK OF LIGHT of His amazing LOVE, that it pushes aside the fear and quiets the naysayers and it is replaced with His AMAZING Presence of supernatural; strength and comfort and yes, a peace that passes all understanding!
And then the JOY of the Lord the He deposits deep in the recesses of my soul…the kind of Joy that sustains me and gives me a supernatural HOPE, against all odds……it’s a place of joyous refuge that depression & hopelessness can NEVER gain admission to, as hard as they might try.
It’s in the hardest of hard times when life’s important lessons can truly be learned, not only with your mind & intellect, but in your heart & soul and it strengthens you to face the next possible tragedy or challenge in life!!
It also gives you wisdom, patience and compassion to help OTHERS who are facing insurmountable pain, anger, guilt and hurt….such as the Veterans in the PTSD Unit where I volunteer…..these precious Vets who have seen and felt the very worst of war. Jesus loves and understands and can heal even them!
And the time when I was almost attacked by a crazed Muslim while inside the Dome of the Rock…..JESUS WAS THERE and delivered me! And that Muslim knew it!
Living for Jesus Christ (as my Pastor says) is a GREAT ADVENTURE!
Yes, there are broken elbows, times of near death, times of great sorrow from losing loved ones, times of everything you can think of that would seek to break us down, but it’s in THOSE times that God shines even brighter in my own life & soul and Jesus show me…… (as the Isaiah 40:31 says)….
….”.but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.”
~~~~
God is so AMAZING and I love Him, not only because of His mercy & kindness, but for His sustaining power in the hardest of times!
No wonder my most FAVORITE scripture (besides Deuteronomy 6:4-5) is Psalms 91….
He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”
Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.
Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.
Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”
~~~~~
Thank you dear Jesus!!!
And thank you Bob Mason!
PS……NAZ…THANK YOU ALSO for your beautiful post and I want to share with you and everybody else a life-changing video on You Tube called….
“How Great Is Our God with Louie Giglio”
Naz,
Giglio talks about astronomy (including my most favorite star of all time, Canis Majoris) and biology, the wonder of DNA and an amazing
molecular structure in our bodies that God designed to “hold us together”……..I recommend it 100%…it’s a must-see!
Anyhow, gotta go…you all have a great day and God bless! 🙂
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December 9, 2015 at 9:10 am
Yes Naz…I have visited that tomb and it is empty!!!!
There’s a saying that I hold dear…….
“It wasn’t the nails that held Jesus to the cross, rather, it was His love for us”
Thank you dear Lord for your love, mercy and compassion!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
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December 9, 2015 at 10:33 am
Sepsis develops when the chemicals the immune system releases into the bloodstream to fight an infection cause inflammation throughout the entire body instead. Severe cases of sepsis can lead to septic shock, which is a medical emergency.
There are three stages of sepsis: sepsis, severe sepsis, and septic shock. There are no 4 stages of sepsis.
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December 9, 2015 at 11:28 am
Elaine, glad to be of service. Looking forward to seeing the x-rays.
Naz, Russell’s teapot is still orbiting the sun.
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December 9, 2015 at 11:50 am
You AREN’T…..
I did have septic shock, extreme shaking once day for 3 days, starting April 12 2014, over the course of 3 days before I finally gave in and went to Kaiser, because I stupidly self-diagnosed that the shaking was simply a case of extreme chills by the severe dehydration. I non-stop barfed for 3 days straight, thinking it was only a kidney stone & dehydration plus I have developed a high tolerance for pain.
So I thought that I could tough it out.
I KNEW it was kidney stones because like I mentioned in my previous post, it is a HORRENDOUS pain……one that is easily identifiable if it ever returns and it did 15 years later, which was what I was now experiencing.
Anyway, finally on the morning of the 4th day spent in bed, it finally hit me that something was seriously wrong with me, so I finally gave in to my husband and he took me to emergency.
They did the CT Scan and all it showed was a load of kidney stones along with one that was 8 millimeters (which was finally smashed & removed 2 weeks later with the water-procedure)
They hydrated me with several bags of whatever it is that they call it.
Then they were about to discharge me with a prescription for pain (for the stones)…but I KNEW something else was really wrong and I told the ER Doc to PLEASE not send me home.
She kept insisting that my only problem was extreme dehydration and stones and I started crying saying…”no Doc, something else is really wrong.” And as nice as she was, she again said…”no dear, you just haven’t slept in 3 days, that’s why you feel so bad.’
So she walked out of the room and there was a nurse named Christina on the portable computer with her back to me and my husband was sitting on a chair on the other side of me.
So in my mind I prayed “Dear Jesus, please show them how sick I am”
Within a few seconds I looked at my nails and they were blue……I said out loud…”Christina, look at my nails”….she turned around and said “oh my God, your lips are blue!” Then my hubby said “your face is blue!”
And right away I went into the fiercest toxic shock chills ever!
The nurse literally cried out to the Doc, the Doc came in and then she rang for some type of a certain team of Doctors and they rushed me into some kind of surgery room.
They gave me some “happy meds” over my face and they removed 2 cups of (I HATE to say the word because it’s soooooo gross) p-u-s from my kidneys.
Because it was at it’s severest state, the other Doc rated it “4th Stage” because had I waited even 1 more hour, I would have died. I am only repeating what the Doc said. He said it was the worst he had ever seen.
They pumped so many antibiotics in me for a week straight that they called them “special forces antibiotics.”
But I will tell you, the WORST experience of the ENTIRE ordeal was when ICU Nurse – Wally with the New Jersey accent, attempted to ORALLY administer liquid Potassium into my mouth, which was a HORRIBLE-TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE and trust me when I say that it did not stay in my mouth for more than 2 seconds…..I felt like depths of hell entered into my mouth! Let’s just say that they had to change my blanket because it sprayed everywhere.
I said…WALLY, are you trying to kill me!!” Wally replied, “if I put it in your IV, it will be a painful burning!”….. and I replied…”I don’t care about pain, THIS TASTES LIKE POOP & LIGHTER FLUID!!!!
That experience was even worse than the week-long catheter by a long shot! I get a headache even thinking about that taste! 😦 😦 😦
Anyhow, I am only repeating what the Doc called my particular case…4th stage sepsis.
Sorry if I got graphic about anything!!
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December 9, 2015 at 12:02 pm
Feel free……go visit Kaiser Santa Clara and ask for yourself! I have no problem with that!! 🙂
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December 9, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Bob…..this is a PS on 2 points….
I understand you want proof. There are liars dressed as Imans, Preachers, Politicians, Contractors, Judges, Professors etc…..they appear in every walk of life.
But now we are talking about me…a former professional liar who now hates lying, simply because I love Jesus. Loving Jesus is why I will not lie.
I don’t want to be lied to or lied about, so I will not lie.
I mean why lie?
You tell a lie and sooner or later you will be found out and be made to look like a fool.
Who desires to be a fool?
So you tell me Bob, for what purpose would I even lie about my elbows?
Why would I give my time, energy and passion to a belief if I have to lie about it to defend?
What kind of foundation is that?
You have no money that I need to swindle from you, you cannot offer me any fame or recognition that I want or need.
There is absolutely nothing that I can gain from lying, except that I would be committing a sin.
So while we should be cautious in believing everything we hear, YOU should give me a good reason WHY I would lie?
~~~~SECONDLY….
It’s obvious that you and YOU AREN’T are atheists.
OK, fine, that is your choice. God gives us freewill, whether we believe in Him or not.
So as I sitting at my desk and using a paper clip, I stopped and really looked at that paper clip and a thought came to me.
Somebody designed that paper clip. Somebody manufactured that paper clip.
Somebody designed and somebody also manufactured the device that produced that paper clip.
IN FACT, somebody even designed & manufactured the machine that designed and manufactured the machine that makes that paper clip……and the lineage goes on.
….and that is for everything…from our toilets to our clocks, to a my GMC truck, the house I live in, and even an M&M and a cookie. All of these items require a designer and manufacturer.
Nobody will say that a cookie just “appeared” or that it evolved.
Nobody would say that a recipe not was needed or that a Baker and an Oven was not required.
NO, a cookie does not simply appear…rather, ingredients need to be grown, cultivated, purchased, the exact amount of ingredients including salt & baking soda is needed and then a Baker needs to mix it all together and the oven bakes a delicious cookie! YUM! 🙂
So if everything from the tallest buildings to the teeniest straight pins REQUIRE a blueprint, designer and manufacturer………….HOW IN THE WORLD can anyone look into a microscope or Hubble?
…. or even look at our own bodies, and working organs, blood, DNA and OUR BRAIN and emotions such as love, compassion, hatred, cruelty, joy, confusion, anxiety, calmness, depression, talents and the ability to reason…. and THEN assume with full conviction that absolutely no Designer or Manufacturer was required?
It makes no sense and it’s very hypocritical……actually it’s epic arrogance in my humble opinion.
What say you?
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December 9, 2015 at 5:41 pm
You can take all the designers among mankind and all their devices but you cannot project that into the supernatural which is a magical like trick designed by the wannabee mediums between man and the caricature concept he designed. Water finds its own level and takes the path of least resistance as it wiggles its way along the ground soil, is that by design or by the laws of physics, same thing for electricity, magnetism, gravity. We understand the negative/positive, opposites attract and sameness repels. It is marvelous to behold but there is nothing personal about the Physics. The laws that govern flight doesn’t say to the bee, hey bee, you’re the kind of bee I want you to be, see, and I love you; no the laws are not saying that. Neither does the fallen leaf say thank you to the wind for the ride along the breeze or the foam bubbles along the river bend.
As a matter of fact all the medical miracles you recount took place where? In the hospital. Pretty much totally under the auspices of medical care, medical practitioners, intravenous, antibiotics, doctors, xrays, braces, lithotripsy, prescriptions, catheters, CT scans and yet for all that medical intervention you say “Dear Jesus, please show them how sick I am” and presto miracles are worked into place by supernatural artistry.
THEISM and BELIEF:
EVEN MAYAN CULTURE demanded killing for the remission of sins; it was the way of ancient man, especially killing virgin children who were groomed for sacrifice; (thank goodness they and their religious ilk disappeared from the face of the earth or dissolved into mainstream civility mode instead of silly mode…) that is, they spilled the life of a person on the altar of sacrifice or on the mountain. They believed like Christians and all monotheistic believers that if you shed blood and took the life of the sacrifice, be it a lamb, a bird, a human or a cow and sprinkled the congregation….your wrong doings would be forgiven by the Gods; or, the Gods would reward you with rain, good weather, bumper crops; and in too many cases miraculous good health by remedial spittle paste and dust in paranormal fiat. And I suppose there were many other wishes that the Gods would fulfill for obedient believers in the same way that prayer today is thought to bring rewards from Peter Popof
With the likes of his miracle water in ketchup packages.
It’s all the same nonsense by people still in a cave mode mindset…that the blood would atone for the sins of the living and the Gods would be appeased. Not only would they spill its entrails, they would cook the sacrifices over the fire for the hungry Gods and call them burnt offerings. What utter nonsense. You can run with scripture nonsense ’til the second coming and it won’t do you any more good than it did the Mayans. Not one bit of good.
It’s all nonsense from the Era of Ancients and it’s time you grow up and seek knowledge so you can be set free from the shackles taught and imprinted by others. For as sure as there is an earth to stand upon, what you regurgitate comes from others and not within yourself Just Like the Santa Claus myth. Did you not grow out of your childishness then?
Since everything is a product of The Source; whether earthlife abounds or not, so what, we and everything else are part of “what is”, The Source. Religion tries to give human attributes to the Source but all that is out there really Scully is nontheism. (Mulder believes in the existence of aliens and the paranormal while Scully, a skeptic, is assigned to make scientific analyses of Mulder’s discoveries to debunk his work and thus return him to mainstream cases.) Do you suppose that Gravity takes a liking to humans? Or Universal Forces love you? No such thing. Does water think you are the greatest thing since ice cubes?.
Fall from a plane or a hilltop, Gravity will pull you down and suck you into oblivion. Water will drown you just as quick as give you a wave. Get rid of Ego, wake up, free yourself from theism. There is nothing personal about the Source, get knowledge. The Source IS and we ARE, that’s all. Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there’s some hand to hold; nontheism is the final reality that there is no babysitter out there that you can count on.” Be the Coming you hope for, wish for, pray for; to be or not to “be-ing”. That is the answer.
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December 9, 2015 at 5:43 pm
Read the words Jesus spoke that describes the nonsense of religion in John 7:1 to 13, when he very bluntly tells everyone, who will listen and perceive… 7 “the (religious) world cannot hate you but me it hates because I testify of it that its works are evil”.
You have no discernment even from your own so called Holy Books
because Holy Books don’t only speak about actuality; they speak in Caricature Concepts of the Gods, metaphorically, to represent the concepts of good and evil in all humanity, that humanity must overcome with the better concepts of caring for others, love, charity, mercy, kindness and compassion for, because we all bleed and breath and feed and need the same as all humans ever born, except for those minds made impotent that way after being delivered out of the womb into the hands of the worlds’ religions.
Today all religions still preach the supernatural, the religious superstition of myth, magic and miracles with the same fervent nonsense sincerity they preached when Jesus railed against the clergy for deceiving the masses with ritualisms of sabbath observance, resting on the seventh day as God did after the creation, tithing, religious holidays, prayers, chants, bowing, genuflecting, finger beading, moaning and groaning in trances and seances like medieval madmen from Dracula’s era, practicing exorcisms………… etc., etc.
And of course anyone who challenged the status quo was ostracized, put on trial, made an example of and worse, excommunicated, sentenced on pain of death if they did not recant their blasphemy and heresy; some of the more well known blasphemers were: Jesus, Luther, Galileo, Henry the VIII and less well known, myself and a few other commentators here in union with one of the fastest growing forces of common sense in the world today, A-THEISM, to the chagrin of the religious world who will complain about common sense atheism every inch of the way as the change to the “New Heaven” and New Earth” takes place before their very eyes that religious forces …….just…….. can………not………. see:
Even Aseop spoke common sense in Fables and Jesus; well, listen to what this common sense man, who did not accept the superstition and supernaturalism of religion had to say:
Jesus speaking: Mat 13:13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing, see not; and hearing, they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mark 4:11-12: He told them, “You’ve been given insight into God’s kingdom—you know how it works. But to those who can’t see it yet, everything comes in stories, creating readiness, nudging them toward receptive insight. These are people—
Whose eyes are open but don’t see a thing, Whose ears are open but don’t understand a word, Who avoid making an about-face and get forgiven.” Because they have been wrong their entire lives, their entire, wasted lives in thrall of fanaticism. And refuse to change.
They continue on their repetitious journey about superstition and supernatural just as the Scribes and Pharisees. Every fanatical street corner preacher says the exact same thing as the preacher in the Mega church, the blind following the blind without exception because they all lack perception.
Only knowledge can set you free; Belief never can and never will for never and never, Amen.
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December 9, 2015 at 6:40 pm
I’m am NOT…..
YOU said….
“As a matter of fact all the medical miracles you recount took place where? In the hospital. Pretty much totally under the auspices of medical care, medical practitioners, intravenous, antibiotics, doctors, xrays, braces, lithotripsy, prescriptions, catheters, CT scans and yet for all that medical intervention you say “Dear Jesus, please show them how sick I am” and presto miracles are worked into place by supernatural artistry”
Do you even read what I wrote?
None of the healing miracles that I experienced happened in the hospital.
Not one.
What are you even talking about?????
The only thing close to a miracle is my prayer to the Lord to reveal to the Doc what was wrong with me. And the fact that I had already been there over 3 hours without any manifestation of Sepsis to their knowledge, yet right when I asked the Lord to show them, within a half a minute, the Sepsis manifested itself in septic shock.
Since you are not comprehending anything that I have said, it seems quite a waste of time to converse on this topic.
Let’s just leave it at >>>> there is absolutely nothing you can say to convince me that GOD does not exist. I’ve seen too much, experienced too much, know too much and nothing on earth or in hell itself can destroy my faith or my love for my God, Jesus Christ.
So on that note, you have a good night……and no hard feelings! 🙂
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December 9, 2015 at 6:45 pm
I am NOT….
PS…you are right…knowledge WILL set you free…..
…………..and that knowledge is of the One and only Lord Jesus Christ, Who is our Creator and Master of the Universe!
WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
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December 10, 2015 at 2:38 am
Elaine, Elaine, Elaine. You know full well that Kaiser would never let me see your medical records.
Good morning, by the way.
I try to stay on message in my posts, which in this instance is the assumption that the entire Bible is historically true because someone found a royal seal of king Hezekiah. My views on the validity of intelligent design creationism are described in Jason’s Nov 10 posting on the conflict between science and religion. You can read them there. There you will also find a link to an article which discusses the general consensus of the scientific community with regard to IDC. I’ll be happy to answer any questions after you have read them.
By the way, a point of order. Agnostics are still looking for proof of God’s existence. Atheists have already decided God doesn’t exist.
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December 10, 2015 at 6:32 am
Elaine, I see you have been sandwiched between Bob and Leo…you’re quite a trooper and you’re holding your own pretty good.
Elaine ,I think what’s going on deep in the heart of some people, and I don’t know if this applies to Leo and/or Bob because I don’t know their heart, is that there are those that don’t want it to be true. So because they don’t want it to be true, they will fight tooth and nail to disprove, nay say and reject any notion of God and Jesus Christ.
The reason for this is because they are scared of the consequences they “think” would result if they became a believer. These are some of their fears :
1) Loss of personal freedom and self identity
2) Living a life full of restrictions and religious duties
3) Having to say Jesus or Amen in every sentence
4) Have to pray every day
5) Have to win other people to God
6) Possibility that God would want them to move to Africa
7) Being “disciplined” by God if they sin or make a mistake
8) Having to go to church at least once a week
9) Paying 10% of their gross salary to the local church or they will be cursed.
10) Not being able to make any decisions on their own without praying about it first.
11) Having to confess your sins daily and ask for forgiveness making sure every sin is confessed with the fear of missing out on heaven
12) Having to sing out loud in church and raise your hands to worship God in public.
13) Forced to throw science and the scientific method out the window and just believe blindly with no rational thoughts (checking brain at door)
14) Calling a fellow believer “brother” or “sister” instead of just using their first name…”Hi brother Bob, meet my friends brother Leo and sister Elaine”
15) Feeling guilty if they break one of the 10 commandments.
16) The fear of possibly having to wash somebody’s feet or eating stale bread and cheap grape juice at communion.
17) Having to be baptized (dunked) in a tub of water in public
18) No beer
19) No pork
20) No Sex
21) No free time to watch sports or pursue other interests
22) Fear that God will “convict” you to bring homeless people in your home at Christmas
23) Having to listen and “obey” your Pastor and be subject to him as a man who has authority over you.
24) The fear that God will disown and “spew you out of His mouth” if you don’t behave and act properly
25) The fear of judgment on judgment day when you stand before God and all your past sins are reviewed since you must give an account of them all.
26) Fear of living a boring, depressing life under the dictatorship of God.
I could go on and on but I’ll stop there. I had a little bit of fun and threw in a couple of funny ones just to make a point but I think deep down some of these fears are real and legitimate in an unbeliever’s mind. If I thought that this is what being a Christian meant, I would also probably do my best to disprove it as well in favor of some other belief system.
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 7:15 am
Naz, thanks. Always good to start the day with a chuckle. As I remember it, the communion wafers did indeed taste stale but the grape juice wasn’t bad. Yes, I used to be a believer. Now I’m not.
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December 10, 2015 at 7:57 am
Bob Bob Bob. Of course they won’t, so why did you ask? LOL!!!
BUT, if they would, you’d be welcome to see it. 🙂
Truth is, there is no reason for me to lie.
I would never waste my life on a belief that I had to lie about…….that makes no sense whatsoever. That would be insanity.
I was raised Eastern Orthodox and all I will say is, “bad stuff happened” in our Diocese which caused me to seriously doubt my faith and even the existence of God.
I completely walked away from Eastern Orthodoxy and never returned.
I know there are good people in that religion, including most of my family, but I cannot and will not adhere to that belief, especially since so much of it conflicts with Biblical teachings.
Meanwhile I had a Jewish uncle who instilled something in my heart when I was younger and in my times of being an “Agnostic Atheist” (if there is such a thing) his words would ring back and cause a little melting of my heart, but then my bitterness towards the Diocese would rise up and I’d close my heart again.
So for a time, I gave up on God, but He never gave up on me, even when I got involved in some really bad stuff. His protection was still there, even though I had to pay some consequences for my bad behavior, at least I was not dead like a lot of my friends were.
My problem was, when I saw corruption & hypocrisy in my former church, I included God in the blame-game, instead of the people responsible.
God understood my confusion, because we are always taught that the people in leadership represent God.
But the BIG FAT DISCLAIMER is, if we really know our Bible, we have the freedom to judge a leader (or anyone) “by their fruits” and if there is a violation of God’s Word in their actions & attitudes & teachings, God doesn’t want us to be under their umbrella of leadership.
The Lord gave us His written Word to protect us, guide us and instruct us and His words are never grievous.
“Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light for my pathway” – Psalms 119:105
His Word is our safe-house and it’s imperative to take His Word IN CONTEXT, or else, there are problems on a major scale.
There are a lot of phony preachers / priests out in the world (as in any walk of life) and God has even stricter consequences for them, in comparison to unbelievers. God even warned us of false teachers and again, this is because He wants to protect us because of His great love for us.
Bob, I promise I will look up your comments, but I have to do it at a later time because time is tight today… but right now, I am going to reply to NAZ real quick, it looks like a fun one!
And by the way, GOOD MORNING BACK TO YOU!
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December 10, 2015 at 8:08 am
Bob, you’re right, the grape juice wasn’t so bad, they usually use Welsh’s 🙂
I didn’t know you “used to be” a believer. I put that in quotes because if you did truly believe at some point in time then God has sealed you with His Holy Spirit and you will always be His. Even if you have rejected God now, the Spirit of God will always gently pursue you and draw you near to Him.
However, if all you had was some sort of superficial religious upbringing or “church time” then God has not given you a new heart and you’re not part of the body of Christ.
I encourage you to keep seeking for the truth and just want you to know that there is no condemnation when it comes to Jesus and to echo what Elaine has said, He is real and continues to live. I hope you will regain your faith one day or find it afresh.
Cheers !
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 9:12 am
Good morning NAZ!
Is “I’m NOT’s” name really Leo? If so, he should just use his name……Lions are to be proud of 🙂
I just don’t take anything that they say as a personal attack, that’s how I deal with it. And even if any of it IS a personal attack, I just let it bounce off.
I save my anger for ISIS and our current Administration. 🙂
BUT I digress
OK…real quick, cause I have to leave soon, I copy & pasted your words and will address them individually! 🙂
1) Loss of personal freedom and self identity
**HECK NO, I have more freedom than most people who are under the bondage of addiction, depression, bitterness and other bad stuff…plus I never have a problem with self-identity, whatever that means…I’m ME! 🙂
2) Living a life full of restrictions and religious duties
**This is true, I am restricted from many things in life such as addiction, thoughts of suicide and fun stuff like that.
Not sure what “religious duties” except maybe just good clean living?
3) Having to say Jesus or Amen in every sentence.
***When people say Jesus or Amen in EVERY sentence, that’s an annoying habit, and it’s not at all heartfelt. (just my opinion)
4) Have to pray every day
*** You mean talking to my most treasured Friend who is also my Loving Father and Creator? That is the JOY of my life! Can’t imagine letting a day go by without talking to Him. IN fact I make it a practice to wake up every morning and say “Good morning Jesus!” (true story)
5) Have to win other people to God
***Well, since I always ask for Jesus to help me to love others, then why in the world would I want them lost? That thought breaks my heart. It’s like if a fire breaks out in abuilding, what kind of friend would I be if I did not reach out to help someone who might get stuck in the building? We win people to God because of LOVE.
6) Possibility that God would want them to move to Africa
***The most safest place to be, is in the middle of God’s will…so if it’s Africa, then that’s the place to go!
7) Being “disciplined” by God if they sin or make a mistake
***So what is wrong with discipline? A parent disciplines their child because they love them and they want them safe. Godly discipline is never cruel or heartless, it’s a firm guidance for protection and safety.
And furthermore, God only disciplines His child when they have ignored His gentle guidance.
On another note, can you even imagine having an undisciplined Military where nobody listens to their Commander? Talk about needless deaths and opportunities for the enemy to gain ground!
If I know anything, it’s that I am safe with God’s instruction….always without exception, He knows best and I don’t say that blindly, but from experience.
8) Having to go to church at least once a week
***I LOVE going to church!!!!!!! It is the highlight of my week, and I even go TWICE a week!
9) Paying 10% of their gross salary to the local church or they will be cursed.
***I don’t pay 10% on my gross, but I am a cheerful giver to my church and those in need who are in AND outside of the church.
10) Not being able to make any decisions on their own without praying about it first.
***Talking to my closest Confident is a good thing and He always saves my hide from making really bad choices.
11) Having to confess your sins daily and ask for forgiveness making sure every sin is confessed with the fear of missing out on heaven.
***That’s just common sense. If I have hurt anyone, it’s always best to apologize. All this is, is God wanting us to do each other right and treat each other with love & respect. When we violate that, what is wrong with making it right? As for me, I really enjoy having a clear conscience…it gives me a peaceful night’s sleep.
12) Having to sing out loud in church and raise your hands to worship God in public.
***Except for the fact that I have a really bad singing voice and I feel bad for the folks in front of me, I LOVE singing to God and lifting my hands in praise.
That’s a joy!
13) Forced to throw science and the scientific method out the window and just believe blindly with no rational thoughts (checking brain at door)
***I LOVE SCIENCE!!! Science is God’s Masterpiece!!!!!!!
14) Calling a fellow believer “brother” or “sister” instead of just using their first name…”Hi brother Bob, meet my friends brother Leo and sister Elaine”
***Personally I like my first name used, but I will use “brother or sister” to someone elderly or in the ministry…I’m not forced to, it’s just my preference.
15) Feeling guilty if they break one of the 10 commandments.
***Feeling bad for committing adultery or murdering an innocent human or stealing their money being SHOULD make me feel guilty!
16) The fear of possibly having to wash somebody’s feet or eating stale bread and cheap grape juice at communion.
***I don’t fear any of that!!
17) Having to be baptized (dunked) in a tub of water in public
***Being baptized by immersion into the Name of Jesus Christ was one of the happiest days of my entire existence!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
18) No beer
***I like Root Beet!!
19) No pork
***I like BLT’s! (on rye toast!) But lamb chops DO rule!!
20) No Sex
***I have three kids, how is that possible?
Now if you mean sex before marriage, yep, there is nothing like acquiring STD’s, the clap, AIDS and all sorts of other fun afflictions by passing yourself around for the enjoyment of many!
21) No free time to watch sports or pursue other interests
***The 49er’s are doing horrible anyway and I DO pursue MANY interests…just not evil ones!
22) Fear that God will “convict” you to bring homeless people in your home at Christmas
***I deal with homeless Vets all the time and furthermore, I am always on the hunt to invite folks over to our home for holidays who have no family…..that’s the best part of that particular holiday!
23) Having to listen and “obey” your Pastor and be subject to him as a man who has authority over you.
***If that Pastor operates within the guidelines of the Bible, I am totally fine with being under his leadership. Plus my Pastor is NOT a dictator.
24) The fear that God will disown and “spew you out of His mouth” if you don’t behave and act properly
***You must be referring to “allah” because Jesus always gives fair warning and loving guidance to help us NOT act in very bad ways.
25) The fear of judgment on judgment day when you stand before God and all your past sins are reviewed since you must give an account of them all.
***Since I was baptized and His blood covered my sins and filled with His Spirit as the early believers in the Book of Acts, I endeavor to live a life that’s honorable & honest (with HIS help, cause I cannot do it on my own), I have no fear of the judgment. The Lord helps us along….that is His grace and mercy…the last thing HE wants to do is send somebody to hell…..yet, it happens because some people choose evil over His goodness. That’s is very sad and tragic.
26) Fear of living a boring, depressing life under the dictatorship of God.
****I never feel a dictatorship…….I feel liberation by living for God and the last thing my life is, is boring & depressing! Even if I’m sad, I’m happy because I feel Him near me!
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!! 🙂
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December 10, 2015 at 11:20 am
Elaine, that was not addressed to you and I did not qualify each statement in detail. My point was that every unbeliever has a long laundry list of things he or she thinks they must do and because of this, the Christian life is a fearful prospect for them.
In reality it’s none of those things at all. Being a Christian is having the Spirit of God living in you, that’s all the “being” you need to know. As for all the things we do or don’t do, that’s a behavior issue, while important, does not make or break the deal with God.
As Christians we are indwelt and are in permanent union with the Spirit of Christ, with a new and pure heart, totally once and for all forgiven of all of our sins past, present and future. All of this because of the amazing grace of God which motivates us to do those things which God would want us to do and what our new self really wants to do anyway. Our old man is crucified and dead and we are alive in Christ. It’s a life of “want to” and not the “have to” of religion any longer because God has it rigged since He has given us of His Spirit. We can resist God and still sin and we will all stumble in many ways as James said, but in the end we will not be happy and that sadness is just another indication that we are His.
Elaine, it’s interesting in some of your comments you make a point to say things like “good clean living” or not pursuing evil interests” etc… I would not expect anything else from you or any other believer but again back to my point, without the grace of God and our union with Jesus those things are really irrelevant. Salvation is about “spiritual geography”. If we are in Christ we are saved, if we are in Adam then we are lost. All the good clean living will not save anyone and there is nothing a believer can do to lose their salvation. The pressure is off…..whew !!!
I have found that in many cases the church (in general) does not emphasize enough the enormity of the grace of God. Rather it focuses on all the religious duties of church attendance, bible reading, prayer time etc…while at the same time putting a guilt trip on those that miss the mark. Often churchgoers are motivated by fear and guilt to live godly lives totally ignoring the fact that God has already made each believer a totally forgiven righteous individual at salvation. What more motivation does one need after God calls you His son/daughter, the righteousness of God and a Saint !
I’m afraid a lot of churches have missed it and spend most sermons teaching how we should behave teaching us what is good and what is evil. We take a biblical character and examine his life and point out his failings and then we feel that “conviction of sin” and think God is talking to us directly. Don’t you notice, in general, the church preaches more about sin and our behavior then it does about the gospel of Jesus Christ ? At some point we are told that we don’t do enough, are not committed enough and at the end of the service, if it’s a “good” one, everyone is at the front begging God for forgiveness (that they already have) and recommitted their lives to Jesus. This is your standard church service and we feel that we really had a good church service if it ends this way.
The truth is that many churches/Pastors are afraid of the grace of God and think it will lead to setting world records for sinning ! Are you kidding, I’m forgiven for all of my sins in the future so I can sin and God will forgive me ! Heehaw ! The truth is, God has this rigged, a child of God will never be happy with sin in their life.
It’s amazing how many preachers on the radio constantly, I mean constantly harp on this. When your eyes are opened, you eventually realize you’re just part of a big behavior improvement program. I’m not speaking about all churches but if the shoes fits…..
The key to understanding this is separating your identity in Christ from your human behavior. They are not the same thing. While we grow in our behavior in time our identity is the same at the moment of salvation – a child of God.
I used to be a Catholic, then was part of the UPC for several years and now I’m free. Thank God. Sorry for rambling…..
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 12:31 pm
Elaine my dear: I could twist your user name too and drop the first “E” and the “a” and the “n” and would you feel better if someone called you LIE. So childish in defense of supernaturalism and magictricks. Moses performed magic tricks too and called them miracles.
It is not that God does not exist, it is that the supernatural, external personal intervening God that answers prayer and suspends the laws of the Universe to accommodate miraculous events to support the delusion of Clergy; that is the God that does not exist; the God Jesus always referred to was the Father abiding within you and within every human born, not an external hocus pocus magic-trick God. Thus, the A-theist speaks more about the mythological, supernatural Gods of all religions that were spawned by imaginative superstition. You just have to get the Gods straight in your mind. Jesus came to tell you the difference but no, The religious Pharisees hijacked the Jesus following and put him right back into their supernatural fantasy land, the Dizzynyland of man’s mind; you pulled his common sense reality out of the real Jesus and continue still to put him into the supernatural mythology of the ancients which is why you have lost credibility. And higher powers? of course, Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism, stardust, elements, energy, dark matter, fire, light and all the wonder we have yet to discover and explore; it’s called evolution.
“……I said out loud…”Christina, look at my nails”….she turned around and said “oh my God, your lips are blue!” Then my hubby said “your face is blue!”
And right away I went into the fiercest toxic shock chills ever!
The nurse literally cried out to the Doc, the Doc came in and then she rang for some type of a certain team of Doctors and they rushed me into some kind of surgery room……”
And then you say: “….None of the (healing) miracles that I experienced happened in the hospital.
Not one.”
Sounds to me like you were in the hospital, you talked to the nurse and the nurse called for the Doc and the medical team went to work on you.
COME ON LIE……
And do you really think bmason could go to Kaiser and successfully request your Xrays and medical records and why should you challenge him to do that anyway, you made the claim so prove the claim!
One person who survived the twin towers claimed he was saved by God’s miracle because God loved him. What he is really saying in the nonsense world of religion is that the 3000 people who died in the event were not loved by God enough and so they perished!
Miracles are always explained or justified on behalf of your love, God’s love or pay back love? And here is your explanation: “….because in God’s foreknowledge, He knew that given the chance, that one day I would love & serve Him!…..”
How self serving is that justification?
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December 10, 2015 at 12:53 pm
Hi NAZ!
I just got home from doing one errand and now I’m on my way to Costco, but I had to take a minute to reply to you! 🙂
Oh I know that wasn’t for me, but it looked fun and I jumped at the chance to comment on each and every thing.
I’m the type who also loves to take surveys…my husband just says it’s because I’m opinionated….well, he might have a point! LOL!
Anyhow my church is UPC and I love it!!!! I know that no UPC / Oneness church is perfect, in fact no church is perfect anyway, but we had to make the heart-breaking decision to leave the one I was born-again in to find another.
Our former church is doing much better and I love everyone there, but now we have integrated into our new church family (since 2008) and it is where Jesus wants us.
SO, this is what I know of God…..3 things….He is ONE, He is Holy and He is Love.
None of those should ever conflict.
Also I do absolutely believe that a person who was Biblically born again of water & Spirit can indeed turn their back on God and lose their salvation.
I also believe that in God’s mercy, He will deal with that person to bring them back, but ultimately we are given freedom of choice and sadly, many who once feasted on the mercies and the goodness of God, choose to turn their back on Him.
I do not in any way prescribe to the Calvinistic doctrine of eternal security…….that would defy the holiness of God and would render so much of the Bible void. (plus Calvin was NOT a nice person, ask Michael Servetus)
Grace does not promise us that we can do whatever we want and God is obligated to welcome us into a holy heaven, rather Grace is a sweet attribute of God that when we struggle, sin or mess up, we can turn to Him and say…”Lord, I BLEW IT, please help me get back on track”….just like the Prodigal Son.
Had that son continued in the mire and pig trough, he never would have returned to his father’s house or had been reunited…but the scripture says.
“When he came to himself” (or repented) and then made his way back home, his father was there waiting with open arms. And that’s the KEY WORD, he repented and returned.
So like in a marriage or a friendship, one must continually work with the other to keep the relationship loyal, true, loving, productive and honorable.
God always, without exception, does His part, but sadly, humanity falters and can make the tragic decision to trample His blood, deny His grace & holiness and return to sin without repentance….like a dog returns to it’s vomit.
I have witnessed that myself and it is worse than a death.
Anyhow I want to end this on a happy note before I head out……….
NAZ, you have a great day!!! 🙂
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December 10, 2015 at 12:59 pm
Naz:
You are such a regular gossip. It made me lol out loud. I lolled like a lion at Elaine’s exchange with you. You’re such a practicing christian dork. hahahaha
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December 10, 2015 at 1:03 pm
“I am NOT”
LOL..”Lie” would have absolutely been fitting for my name before Jesus came into my life, so you are half right on that! 🙂
Leo….you have a good day and stay out of trouble…I’ve got stuff to do! 🙂
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December 10, 2015 at 1:34 pm
Elaine, I think for now we will have to agree to disagree on what we believe in terms of God’s forgiveness. I used to believe exactly like you do. I was in the UPC and know all the in’s and out’s of their doctrine and system. I know about Acts 2:38, the tongues, the baptism, the skirts, the hair 🙂 etc…
I just want to leave you with one thought, sort of a math problem…..
What keeps a person out of heaven ? The answer is sin, you know that of course.
Did Jesus die for ALL our sins ? even our future ones ?
If you say yes then how can a believer lose their salvation ?
You have a good day.
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 1:41 pm
Leo, thanks for the compliment.
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!
Good day to you too !
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 1:49 pm
Why aren’t Atheists plagued with guilt complexes and self loathing ? Because they have the knowledge of education and intellect to know the truth, live in reality and maintain morality! All humans have morals controlled by the brain and that Christians are entirely wrong to try and claim morals as their own! The truth is that atheists; aka **existentialists, want to help the religious to come out of their blind ditch of supernaturalism where they have been banished by the repetitious rhetoric of nonsensical ancient mythology and come into knowledge so they can be free from the shackles of religion’s tyranny.
**(Existentialism: “a philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one’s acts.”)
Christians invented the concept of sin and then invented the sequel: the idea that you could sin, ask forgiveness, get pardoned and start with a clean sheet! So no surprise that they are so expert at it.
A Christian is a person who feels repentance on Sunday for what s/he did on Saturday and is going to do again on Monday. – Thomas Russell Ybarra
Here is a perfect illustration of an existentialist (atheist) gentleman helping a Christian lady.
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December 10, 2015 at 2:00 pm
“Why aren’t Atheists plagued with guilt complexes and self loathing”
Leo, this is part of what I’ve been trying to say all along…the guilt complex and self loathing as you put it should NOT be part of a Christian’s DNA.
Religion has polluted the pure water of Christ and many are drinking dirty water.
I’ll stop there.
Naz
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December 10, 2015 at 2:06 pm
But Naz:
It is part of your DNA when you suggest that sin keeps one out of heaven. When sin is in the eye of the beholder how can that be true; otherwise, both John The Baptist and Jesus would have both been locked out by the Pharisaical maniacs, the Christian precursors. Having said that remember that the Kingdom (of heaven) is within you and not some place you “go to” or “go into”.
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December 10, 2015 at 4:03 pm
“Why aren’t Atheists plagued with guilt complexes and self loathing ? Because they have the knowledge of education and intellect to know the truth, live in reality and maintain morality! All humans have morals controlled by the brain and that Christians are entirely wrong to try and claim morals as their own!”
I totally agree with you, Christians cannot claim morality as their own and Atheists have the ability to know the truth.
You still are not understanding what it means to be a Christian and totally missing it….this is about Christ living in you and not about religious behavior and rules !!
He that has ears to hear let him hear.
Naz
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December 11, 2015 at 7:23 pm
Elaine,
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:17)
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December 11, 2015 at 7:49 pm
Bob Mason,
We in our imperfection are always seeking ways to reconcile what seems unreasonable. The Creation and how it came to be and by what cause presents a steep challenge. You might try searching here:
The Words & Works of Jesus Christ A Study of the Life of Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
The Prophet Isaiah — A Commentary by Victor Buksbazen
The Ancient Love Song Finding Christ in the Old Testament by Charles D. Drew
Jewish New Testament Commentary by David H. Stern
Things To Come by J. Dwight Pentecost
Jesus In The Hebrew Scriptures The Identity Of The Messiah by Meno Kalisher
A Harmony of the Words and Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
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December 11, 2015 at 8:53 pm
I AM’S “GET REAL” BIBLE LESSON, STAR DATE SEVEN HUNDRED THIRTY ONETH, ELEVENTH DEC MMXV CE.
The Bible clearly shows that the voice of God is merely the voice of men dictating that their voices to be God’s voice by religious tradition. And so the world lives on, in its own choreographed dupery from its own invention since the God concept was devised in the imagination of men wannabeing something they were not: God’s Messengers: cue the Big Timpani Drum Roll Sound Effect………..
Whose voice was it really, that was claimed to be the voice of God in the old testament?…why it was the prophets’ voices through the years after they went to special school to learn obedience classes and the way of the prophets at communicating God’s will and voice, desires and predictions, curses and decrees. Does anybody believe that Jesus did not know that? esus knew the dupery as well as I know the dupery and how it was played up in religious circles of convenient obfuscation to stun mass minds as Frank clearly conveys in his hour long videos
The Bible mentions both Elijah and Elisha visiting centers of religious learning in Israel that were attended by groups of men called “the sons of the prophets” (for example, see 1 Kings 20:35; 2 Kings 2:3, 5, 7, 15). Commenting on this phrase, Albert Barnes wrote it signifies “the schools or colleges of prophets which existed in several of the Israelite, and probably of the Jewish, towns, where young men were regularly educated for the prophetical office.
As Elijah was nearing the end of his ministry, God directed him to anoint a younger man named Elisha to take his place. Elisha, son of Shaphat, was from Abel Meholah, of the Jordan Valley (1 Kings 19:16). After a few years of training, Elisha would become God’s spokesman to the northern kingdom; and his ministry would be filled with signs and miracles, proclamations and warnings. He would become known as the prophet of peace and healing.
Elijah then answered, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so” (2 Kings 2:10). The Hebrew words in this verse mean that if Elisha would be given the privilege of seeing the miraculous way God would take Elijah away, then it would be a sign that his request would be granted.
“Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, ‘My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!’” (2 Kings 2:11-12). God had suddenly taken Elijah out of service, and Elisha was privileged to watch the miraculous way in which his master departed.
Elisha reached down and picked up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from the prophet when he was taken away. This represented the authority God had given His prophet. Elijah had used it earlier that same morning in miraculously causing the waters of the Jordan River to divide (verse 8).
After picking up Elijah’s mantle, Elisha went to the bank of the Jordan River to test whether the spirit of Elijah had really fallen upon him. Approaching the river, he asked, “‘Where is the LORD God of Elijah?’ And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over” (verse 14).
The sons of the prophets also recognized that the “spirit of Elijah” now rested on Elisha, and they bowed before him in respect (verse 15). Elisha then began his prophetic career, which likely lasted some 50 years, as it extended over the reigns of four kings of Israel: Jehoram, Jehu, Jehoahaz and Joash.
And so another man of God speaks thusly: Thus saith the Lord and after enough time the prophets gained respect as the mediators of God and God’s word and God’s voice and God’s decrees, which in reality were merely the voice, words, covenants, decrees, predictions, trends and desires of the prophets with no authority but culture and tradition the accepted academia for religious rites. It had absolutely nothing to do with any God in the supernatural world or any God in the natural world whatsoever because God was a caricature concept in the minds of the leaders in the religious schools like the madrassas and seminaries and the nonsense of imaginative men enthralled by ritualism.
I AM
A MADE UP MAN AND
A MADE UP MAN IS ALL
I AM.
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December 11, 2015 at 8:57 pm
He that has ears to hear let him hear; he that has eyes to see with, a mind to think with and a heart to love with, let him.
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December 11, 2015 at 9:23 pm
Leo,
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:13-21)
* The record indicates that there would be two responses to the revelation from Jesus. Some would accept it (v. 33); and those who did so would believe Jesus’ word to be the word of God. That word was trustworthy because “the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God; to him God gives the Spirit without limit” (v. 34). Christ by the Spirit would reveal the words of the Father to men. The Son is the object of the Father’s love, and all authority has been placed in the hands of the Son (v. 35). John could therefore say that the one who puts faith in such a person has eternal life. Some would accept the testimony borne by Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, some would reject the Son. Rejection would stem from unbelief concerning at least five truths: (1) that Christ was from heaven; (2) that He knew the Father; (3) that He had been sent by the Father; (4) that He had the Father’s words; and (5) that He was empowered by the Holy Spirit. The result of such rejection would be that these would never enter into life but would continue under the wrath of God.
Thus John indicated that Jesus as the Messiah came to reveal the Father so that through that revelation people might come to know the Father and have eternal life. Christ called on the nation to whom He presented Himself to make a decision about His person and words. Those who trusted Him received life; and those who rejected Him continued under the wrath of God. *
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:39-40, 46-47)
* The Words & Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost / II. THE AUTHENTICATION OF THE KING / A. The Acceptance of His Person / 6. The Witness of John (John 3:22-36) Section 33 Page 130.
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December 11, 2015 at 10:19 pm
Frank:
If you can tell me what the metaphor means regarding “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up” and what the significance of the serpent in the wilderness to Jesus being lifted up I would like to hear it to get a grasp on your understanding, I believe I have asked you for this explanation of your understanding before but you ignored it. I also remember that I told you what it means but I believe you ignored it anyway but being textually active is not meaningful if you do not understand what the text is alluding to.
If you are correct I will tell you; if you are incorrect I will tell you. I know what it means so please indulge me and tell me what you believe it means. Because you quoted the quote you imply that you know what it means.
I am not asking you to go any further than the reference to the metaphorical serpent and what that reference means in relationship to Jesus. How are they connected? In your opening paragraph you are running quotes into each other as if they follow in order but they do not and you are trying to make out-of-context quotes into context-quotes that do not exist so just concentrate on the “….serpent and Jesus and the parable metaphor they stand for”.
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December 12, 2015 at 4:55 am
Frank, thanks for the reading list. Unfortunately, none of those are available from my public library. Not to despair, however. In Texas, a public library card gets you access to every loanable book from every library in the state. Some of the books I have read that are most critical of intelligent design creationism have come from the faith based colleges and universities libraries in the state. Everyone should be as open to such a diversity of opinions. Its one thing to preach to the choir, but I think the choir members are better off intellectually if they listen to several different preachers. I’ll check with the university libraries with regard to your suggested reading list.
Enjoy your day. Mine is going to be physically exhausting. My wife and I are babysitting the grandkids.
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December 12, 2015 at 5:01 am
Please excuse my syntax errors. I was in a rush to post comment 51 without properly proofreading it.
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December 13, 2015 at 5:18 am
Bob,
Your open frame of mind will undoubtedly lead to your success; especially in dealing with the grandkids!
Best Regards,
Frank
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December 13, 2015 at 5:22 am
Leo,
As I’ve told you before, I don’t spoon-feed and I don’t go into rabbit-holes.
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December 13, 2015 at 7:51 am
Atheism, old & new — a study in contradictions:
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December 13, 2015 at 12:07 pm
The Universe is the way it is from a Belief Based Burrow so there is no need to explore anything, search for anything; no need to ask, knock or seek because if you seek, ask, and knock you will uncover knowledge and knowledge will supplant belief and you’ll be up ship creek without a paddle so it’s back to the bilious belief board to fill your boots.
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December 13, 2015 at 12:09 pm
You should spoon feed because the shovel you use now is useless.
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December 13, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Frank you are admitting that you do not know the connection between the serpent in the wilderness and Jesus. Just be frank about it Frank, admit it; there’s no mystery; there’s no rabbit hole; you either have knowledge or you don’t. So as I said before, you may just as well recite Three Blind Mice if you can’t explain it.
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December 15, 2015 at 5:11 am
Re: post # 41 —
SHOVEL, PLEASE!!!
Once again, on contradictions & science:
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December 15, 2015 at 9:22 am
Free will is an illusion. Men and preachers make statements, none of which are necessarily true because they say so. That the way preachers and prophets of old operate. They make statements, call it Godly and that’s it and people accept it on belief in this day and age. But it wasn’t always that way. At one time and in some remote backward way even today in some religions, it is still true that when the authority of tradition speaks it is from the ultimate and you must accept it on pain of death. So to save their life who wouldn’t accept it?
THAT’S THE WAY IT WAS IN THE ANCIENT DAYS: believe or be killed. So when anybody says the great minds of old were Christian or associated with any religion, it means absolutely nothing everybody was coerced into following the decrees of the Prophets. In most ways we are free from that imposition today accept in some co9untries and for such things as blasphemy, apostasy, denial of the divine, atheism; and, certain lifestyles contrary to the ancient decrees like homosexuality, sex before marriage, adultery, idolatry, working on the holy days, all punishable by death. History only shows the level to which retardation of belief sank to when it was imposed by bully believers whose egos could not be contained if obedience to them, as Gods over men, was not shown by groveling in the dirt and kissing the ashes of bullies. Well why not, that’s the way all Gods demanding obedience, behaved. And there were always enough egomaniacs around to prove it through bully enforcement.
Just another shoveller preaching to the choir by saying everything believers already believe. No matter how many billions belief the earth is flat, it is not flat still. The earth was not flat before Copernicus and was not flat after Galileo’s heresy trial. No Pope, Prophet or Pauper’s belief ever made anything so just because they believed it, the Placebo effect notwithstanding — in which a fake treatment in an inactive substance like sugar, distilled water, or saline solution — can sometimes improve a patient’s condition simply because the person has the expectation that it will be helpful.
Is the God Effect really a Placebo Effect?
Research on the placebo effect has focused on the relationship of mind and body. One of the most common theories is that the placebo effect is due to a person’s expectations. If a person expects a pill to do something, then it’s possible that the body’s own chemistry can cause effects similar to what a medication might have caused.
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What Is the Placebo Effect?
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How Are Placebos Used?
What Is the Placebo Effect?
How Does the Placebo Effect Work?
A placebo is anything that seems to be a “real” medical treatment — but isn’t. It could be a pill, a shot, or some other type of “fake” treatment. What all placebos have in common is that they do not contain an active substance meant to affect health.
Sometimes a person can have a positive or negative response to a placebo. For instance, the person’s symptoms may improve. Or the person may have what appears to be side effects from the treatment. These responses are known as the “placebo effect.”
Although 39 percent of scientists in the United States expressed a belief in God, among those who were members of the National Academy of Sciences, just 7 percent held such a belief (Larson and Witham 1997 & 1998). An advanced education in science evidently erodes belief, but the current state of the public’s knowledge has little effect. Religion still dominates. Only the elite of those that make a living in science have largely forsaken religion.
Since the public’s knowledge about nature has failed to weaken religious belief and religion has such a strong emotional hold on most humans, its origins must stem from other factors. Although some have argued that religion is simply a product of culture, its ubiquity and power suggests that the need for a faith is part of human nature. If it were simply a product of culture, some human groups would exhibit no religion. The form religion takes is clearly culturally determined. In that respect it is similar to language. All humans have an instinct for language (Pinker 1994), but their culture determines the language children actually learn. Given its universality and the evidence that all human societies in the past incorporated a religion, the urge to believe must be in our genes.
Definition of Religion
Faith consists in believing when it is beyond he power of reason to believe. It is not enough that a thing be possible for it to be believed.
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December 15, 2015 at 9:50 am
THANK YOU!!!
I love this scripture Frank…..
“And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:17) ”
It is the core truth of all existence…HE is the center of it all!!!!!
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December 15, 2015 at 10:13 am
“Since the public’s knowledge about nature has failed to weaken religious belief ….”
OR, maybe people have reasoned that the universe could not have come from nothing and therefore think that a divine Creator is a reasonable cause for our existence.
Nobody can explain the origin of the Universe scientifically because it is not in the realm of science. Science explains what’s already there so it’s the wrong means to use in explaining the origin of the Universe.
Sherlock Holmes said it best,
“…when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
Naz
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December 15, 2015 at 11:46 am
God in the gaps, Naz, God in the gaps. Let the scientists do their thing.
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December 15, 2015 at 2:39 pm
Yes, the scientists should do their thing …their thing is Science.
Let God be God.
Naz
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December 15, 2015 at 2:59 pm
Cassius:
“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”
Julius Caesar (l, ii, 140-141) by Shakespeare
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December 15, 2015 at 3:13 pm
Oh, okay. Good. Then scientists can continue to use methodological naturalism and exclude the god hypothesis when asking questions about the origin of the universe and the origin of life. Just so we’re clear.
Also, I have the library searching for Pentecost’s A Harmony of the Words and Works of Jesus Christ.
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December 16, 2015 at 6:14 am
Elaine,
You’re welcome!
Most wonderful of all; He’s our Lord and Savior too … Hebrews 1:1-12.
Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)
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December 16, 2015 at 6:19 am
Re: post # 65 —
Case in point:
Jeremiah 29:13
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December 16, 2015 at 7:04 am
Bob, respectfully, I don’t think we’re understanding each other.
You can’t use science to determine origins because it was not meant for that. Although science can explain the physical world in absolute terms such as, water consists of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, it cannot make the same statement about the origin of the Universe. Surely science can look at the physical world and make theories about origins but it cannot make an absolute claim like to can about H20 which makes it an effective and unreliable tool in trying to determine the answer to the origin of the Universe. The origin question was never meant to be handled in the realm of science.
Ultimately science can only study what is already there and it cannot make absolute inferences about the past. For example, a lot of the scientific theories about naturalistic evolution is based on a lot of assumptions such as constant radioactive decay rates in the past or the strength of the earth’s magnetic field being constant. The theories are based on assumptions like these and the origin question is treated like a simple science experiment such as where we wait to see how long it takes for an ice cream to melt and then go back and calculate how much ice cream was on the cone. We can’t treat the origin question the same way we would treat the melting of an ice cream cone.
Since science can only explain what is already there, it cannot tell us how the matter got there in the first place. I heard about the lightening bolt hitting the pond of goo but where did the goo come from ? Where did the lightening come from ?
Lastly, I like science and not opposed to it. This whole question about God versus Science is silly to me and nonsensical. I don’t read the bible to learn about the splitting of the atom nor should I read a science text book to learn about the creation of the Universe which by the way includes “Science”.
It’s all about having the right tools. Don’t you notice when you can’t find the right tool it’s hard to fix anything in your home ?
Science (definition)
“the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.”
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December 16, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Replying initially to the finding of the Hezekiah object, there is no doubt about the existence of Hezekiah, because he is mentioned in the Assyrian account of the siege of Jerusalem. However, there is much greater doubt whether the kings such a Saul, David and Solomon existed, since they were supposed to have ruled over a country that spanned from Dan to Beersheba, yet none of these kings or their kingdom are mentioned in the records of either Egypt or Assyria, as surely they would have been, if it had existed.
Secondly, about the doubts of various atheists that God exists, consider this: could the awesome molecule of DNA, which has been changed by mutations to create all lifeforms through from the first common ancestor to all those that are now present, have come into existence by chance?
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December 17, 2015 at 1:56 pm
Chas,
Actually David’s existence has been confirmed archaeologically amongst a host of Biblical individuals.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/
The Dead Sea Scrolls also provide invaluable insight & confirmations of Hebrew Scripture.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/category/daily/biblical-artifacts/dead-sea-scrolls/
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December 17, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Re: Naz’s post # 69 —
The problem with Science vs. Theism as John Lennox points out in this debate is it’s always presented as an “either/or” proposition. In truth, the two aren’t in competition with each other. We need to think more in terms of reconciliation than conflict: [Romans 5:11; 11:15; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19]
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December 17, 2015 at 2:32 pm
Frank says: “The origin question was never meant to be handled in the realm of science.” but omitted the logical conclusion:
The Origin question was meant for the imagination until knowledge opens out minds.
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December 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Naz, I agree. We are talking past each other. It’s probably moot. Scientists will continue to ask questions about the origin of DNA and the universe. We can debate later, once they have something tangible to present, whether or not the results are significant.
Chas, yes indeed, DNA is awesome. Even more awesome is how it came to be in the first place. However, if we accept the conclusion that God made it, then we would never go beyond that. Which is precisely why scientists do not allow supernatural explanations to encroach on their work. Its a dead end to the furtherance of knowledge.
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December 17, 2015 at 6:55 pm
He who restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit has understanding. (Proverbs 17:27)
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December 18, 2015 at 4:46 am
Succinct, concise and direct:
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December 18, 2015 at 7:09 am
Bob, yes I agree that we should not allow supernatural explanations to encroach on scientific discovery or the pursuit of knowledge. Even if we accept the truth that God made it, that should not foil the scientific method and our desire to learn.
The only difference is the interpretation of scientific discoveries and what they mean. If one is coming from a God-based approach it will mean something different than if one was coming from a naturalistic evolution approach or mind set.
For example, if they find dinosaur fossils next to human fossils the conclusions from both parties would be significantly different.
Naz
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December 18, 2015 at 7:52 am
Naz, if I had to guess, I’d say the mind set issue is one of which form of truth you are most comfortable with (or makes you more uncomfortable), the perceived absolute truth of scripture or the ever changing, tentative, consensus truth of science. Its hard to have it both ways. Ken Miller seems to have been able to accommodate both, most others cannot.
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December 18, 2015 at 10:35 am
Bob, we all bring our bias and belief system to the table of course.
I really don’t see a conflict with holding belief in God, and science as a means to acquiring knowledge of the physical world. These ideas never conflicted with my beliefs about God and the creation. I don’t have any intellectual barriers or conflicts from science that make me doubt my belief in God.
I don’t read the bible as a science text book but as a spiritual book. That said, there are plenty of hints and clues in the bible about certain things that relate to the scientific world. The detailed genealogies is one method used for example to determine the approximate age of the earth. While this is interesting, I’m not going to die on the this hill since convincing someone how old the earth is not my priority. Even if I could compile all of the scientific facts about creation to somehow convince the Atheist about God, I doubt he would convert because this goes beyond intellectual knowledge alone.
As for scientific claims themselves, I only accept factual information. Like I said before, how discoveries are interpreted makes all the difference. If you tell me water will boil at 100 degree Celsius I will believe it. If you tell me the earth is 500 billion years old (or whatever the current age is), I won’t believe it because it cannot be proven scientifically. I am content in not being able to explain every little detail about the biblical account in scientific terms because I have realized that first off the bible is not a science text book, and secondly there could be explanations that I have never thought of. In any case, I do not need 100% scientific validation to have faith in Christ.
We (humans) are comprised of body, soul and spirit.
The body and soul (mind, will, emotions) can use science and should utilize science for knowledge of the physical world. There’s nothing wrong in that.
The spirit is the place where God dwells (if you know Christ) and science has no business there in my opinion.
Thanks for the discussion.
Naz
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December 18, 2015 at 10:40 am
“The only difference is the interpretation of scientific discoveries and what they mean.”
Naz this is not a trivial difference. The conclusions of the supernatural mind will attribute every science discovery as a support for the Absolute Certainty of the Supernatural. Scientists in some respects are like believers who start with a theory and then seek only evidence to support the theory.
If scientists discovered dinosaur fossils next to human fossils I would wonder if the human fossils were merely the remains of humans that the dinosaurs failed to eat before the dinosaurs died or were killed. In my imaginative interpretation I would not expect to find human fossils anywhere near dinosaur fossils as the humans were food intake for dinosaurs and would be digested leaving no evidence that humans lived when dinosaurs ruled. Personally my theory is that the dinosaurs were conflagrated by humans and went extinct by deliberate human intervention after the discovery and control of fire. That the conflagration soot could only have come from asteroid impact, lava flow or lightening strike wildfires does not preclude the human factor.
It seems to me that conflagration is a mainstay factor for the asteroid impact conflagration in the fossil record but conflagration is a term for a great and destructive fire that threatens human life, animal life, health, and/or property. It may also be described as a blaze or simply a (large) fire. A conflagration can be accidentally begun, naturally caused (wildfire), or intentionally created (arson).
My theory states that humans began their early earth exploration at the time of fire discovery and control that allowed them to explore outside their mountain cave huts when they devised a method to neutralize the predators that ate them, at the tree of the forbidden fruit, forbidden because dinosaurs, like lions lying in wait at the watering hole, waited for humans to pick and harvest the food that fell from the trees in Eden.
With fire as a weapon Adam followed the dinosaurs to their breeding ground when predators, focusing entirely on the Estrus Cycle were vulnerable and without interest in eating humans or anything else. In that susceptible and exposed state both the adults and the offspring were defenseless, contained, surrounded and conflagrated. And FINALLY Humans ruled by Spark, the Fire Spirit that symbolized the great power of the Gods. AND THE FORCE AWAKENED!
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December 18, 2015 at 10:43 am
Bob, since God did make it, why would we wish to go further?
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December 18, 2015 at 10:53 am
Responding to Naz #77, I agree that, even though God made it, it should not stop us using the scientific method to understand things more. God made the universe to behave in a consistent way that we can describe by ‘laws’, so that we could make use of its properties both physically and to understand more.
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December 18, 2015 at 11:23 am
Chas:
Your statement is typical of the problem with all religions; it leads to dissension, conflict, violence, ridiculous accusations of blasphemy and apostasy: stonings, death and war around the planet since the year dot.
Religion divides Global Humanity like we divide of the one Single Global Ocean. Look on a globe and see for yourself there are not five Oceans there is only one Ocean, the Global Ocean. Humanity is like the Global Ocean. Religions want to set their cults apart and cut out sections of humanity to become by assertion, propaganda, proselytizing and other means that one true representative of Humanity. The Cult with the one true God and the one true messenger and the only true way to get into that other supernatural imaginative realm: Heaven, Nirvana, Paradise, Promised Land, Afterworld, Fairyland, Kingdom, Utopia, Zion, Jannah….
We’ve always speculated about what might lie beyond the stars, an activity not unlike theology only without all the cast iron certainties. And it’s fun to speculate about the big questions like the meaning of life because you never know, somebody might actually come up with the answer; so far nobody has which would explain why there are so many expert opinions on this subject.
But there’s just something about human beings when it comes to the unknown, that we just don’t seem able to wonder about something and speculate creatively maybe have a bit of fun with it. No, not us. Instead we like to decide beyond all possible doubt, without a single shred of evidence.
We prefer to nail our colors to the mast before we know if there’s a ship attached to it. And often we’ll defend that position to the death. Now if that doesn’t qualify as serious mental illness, I would love to be briefed on what exactly does qualify and why.
It’s unfortunate that many people on this planet seem to believe the very first thing they’re told and stick with it for the rest of their life. Not only does it remain un-examined but any attempt to challenge it is taken as a grievous insult.
Clearly those early few months and years of life are a very sensitive time and whatever ideas are imprinted into the soft putty of the unformed mind at that stage stays there pretty much forever and yet for some reason, here in the civilized world, it’s still perfectly legal for us to indoctrinate our children with the most hateful and divisive absurdities it’s possible to imagine. And imagined them we have.
Creating in them not young, vibrant, healthy, inquiring minds but rather stunted little freakish minds that are no use to anyone but a bloodsucking preacher.
We not only allow this abuse, we actively encourage it; we throw public money at it. What we’d be better off at is subsidizing the tobacco industry because that does less harm. At least cigarettes carry a health warning. How about a mental health warning? On the holy scriptures?
Especially now that for the first time since the middle ages faith and politics go together like sex and violence only this time space age weapons are controlled by stone age minds and right now especially in the Middle East, things are shaping up quite nicely to blow us all to kingdom come.
Except that no kingdom is going to come ‘cause this is the kingdom; it has already come and we’re already living the dream. Religion knows this but it doesn’t want us to know it because then, it would not have any reason to exist. So instead , it seeks to place itself, to position itself between us and our experience, a self appointed filter. A parasite.
Jesus put it this way: You love sitting at the head table at church dinners, love preening yourselves in the radiance of public flattery. Frauds! You’re just like unmarked graves: People walk over that nice, grassy surface, never suspecting the rot and corruption that is six feet under.”
One of the religion scholars spoke up: “Teacher, do you realize that in saying these things you’re insulting us?” He said, “Yes, and I can be even more explicit. You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You load people down with rules and regulations, nearly breaking their backs, but never lift even a finger to help. You’re hopeless! You build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed. The tombs you build are monuments to your murdering ancestors more than to the murdered prophets. “You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You took the key of knowledge, but instead of unlocking doors, you locked them. You won’t go in yourself, and won’t let anyone else in either.”
Now, maybe that’s okay with you, maybe you’re fine with that because maybe, you, don’t want experience, maybe you prefer dreams. Maybe you want your head to go to that special place where god wreaks abuse vengeance on anyone whose lifestyle, you don’t personally happen to approve of and where Jesus strokes you like a puppy dog.
Well if that’s the case you may as well take drugs because you’re already on the most dangerous drug there is. Absolute certainty is a drug that can make people do the strangest things. It’s the devil’s drug.
And you don’t want to be around anyone who’s on that stuff because they’re no longer in control, you can see it in their eyes, the drug is controlling them so that, suddenly, no action is too callous or too spiteful or too cruel to be justified.
And if you get hooked on it and if you keep taking it, you too could wake up one day, so full of righteousness that suddenly the only thing that makes sense to you anymore is somebody else’s death. And you’ll realize that your mind is no longer your best friend.
So if someone offers you, Absolute Certainty, they’re going to make it sound attractive and you will be tempted; but, just say no. Your mind and your children’s minds will thank you for it and that really is, an absolute certainty.
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December 18, 2015 at 11:56 am
Chas, because “God did it” is not always the best answer. Read comments 6 and 15 under Jason’s Nov. 10 post in the conflict between science and religion.
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December 18, 2015 at 9:37 pm
Bob,
Ken Miller draws a valid conclusion in his lecture on the collapse of ID. At 52:40 – 54:42 he speaks with conviction of the false duality/false choice presented by the Science vs. God “conflict”. As Lennox and Ross among others hold impartiality essential for open-mindedness would ameliorate hostility and allow genuine, even-handed, pragmatic resolution of controversy. Trouble is whenever we try removing walls of separation; continual prejudices assault our efforts of reconciliation from both camps.
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December 19, 2015 at 10:16 am
Nice to see such an array of open minds!
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December 19, 2015 at 11:47 am
Ameliorate hostility? Neither impartiality, open-mindness nor prejudices has any meaning in a wall of separation that tries to gloss-over outright lies. Attempting to label the difference as merely controversial is laughable canard. What resolution or reconciliation can be possible for a camp of lies? None!
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December 20, 2015 at 11:03 am
Concerning Ken Miller’s references to irreducible complexity kindly examine:
http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-2-chapter-10-argument-irreducible-complexity
Also view:
Additionally, regarding the Dover case specifically view segment 24 of More Than A Theory by Hugh Ross:
Moreover I urge you consider:
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December 20, 2015 at 12:20 pm
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December 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm
Frank:
Theories are a dime a dozen and a quarter if you only want 12 pcs.
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December 20, 2015 at 1:04 pm
In Conversation with Evolution & Design Theory :
How does the eye see anything”
LIFE FORCES.
Why do plant roots crawl along seeking nutrients and water?
LIFE FORCES.
Why does water find its own level and take the path of least resistance?
LIFE FORCES.
What compels evolution to evolve, adapt and design?
LIFE FORCES.
Where do life forces operate?
EVERYWHERE.
Where is life forces command central?
THE BRAIN.
What made the brain?
LIFE FORCES.
What propels the activity of life forces?
INERT MATERIALISM.
From where does inert material come?
LIFE FORCES ACTIVITY.
How can that be?
LIFE FORCES:
THE CAUSE OF ITS OWN EFFECT
THE EFFECT OF ITS OWN CAUSE.
How can life forces be the cause of it own effect?
ENERGY IS MATERIALISM SPEEDED UP
MATERIALISM IS ENERGY SLOWED DOWN
How can that be true?
DO THE MATH.
E=MC2
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December 20, 2015 at 3:33 pm
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus/Messiah Yahshua, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
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December 20, 2015 at 5:52 pm
Re: post # 88 — Pertaining to the components, composition and operational function of the human eye:
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December 20, 2015 at 6:02 pm
THE spirit of Good is not external, it in within everybody and needs only to be released by understanding to Jesus when it will open your mind to his true meassage.
“For the grace of Good has appeared, bringing salvation to the world, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and Goodly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great Good, made known as the Savior, Christ Jesus/Messiah Yahshua, who gave Himself, through his life, an example of how true humanity should behave toward others and to show that a readiness to give and forgive, now public, will redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify a people, zealous for Good deeds.
This new life though starting right now and whetting our appetites is destined for the glorious day when our great Good, from his example, will spread and rise like yeast in the bread to permeate every part of humanity that will speak to and exhort and reprove with all authority, making us a people he can be proud of, energetic in Goodness. Let nobody put you down.” (Titus 2:11-15)
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December 21, 2015 at 4:53 pm
It’s, “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus/Messiah Yahshua,”.
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Messiah our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:6-8)
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December 23, 2015 at 9:47 am
“THE spirit of Good is not external, it in within everybody and needs only to be released by understanding to Jesus when it will open your mind to his true meassage.”
Leo, the Spirit of GOD is not in everyone. You only show you’re ignorance and stupidity by replacing the word GOD with Good.
Merry Christmas.
Naz
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December 23, 2015 at 11:01 am
An exercise in interpretation:
The Infinite/Eternal Universe of Sir Isaac Newton — It’s the very fact that space-time, energy and matter are NOT infinite/eternal that’s used to posit a cause for the beginning of the universe hence the existence of a Causal Agent/Creator God.
http://www.marxist.net/sciphil/reasoninrevolt/rirframe.htm?8.htm
Astronomy and the Bible — Note the observations on Hubble and the expansion of space as measured by Red Shift presented herein:
Consider too, Max Planck’s work on the finite/indivisible universe:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1918/planck-bio.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_law
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4688
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December 23, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can assure you, Naz, when it comes to comments on this thread I have no monopoly on stupidity.
The only thing about the comment you refer to that should be changed is: the preposition “to” and the typo “in” and the double “s” typo; the line should be read as: “…..it is within everybody and needs only to be released by understanding Jesus, when it will open your mind to his true message.”
The spirit of “good” is within everybody, you are born with it. You’re not arguing with me on this matter, you are arguing with Jesus so you should re-read when he says “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of Good is within you..” Good is also known as the “Father”. Your use of the word “god” is taken from mythology and I Am already well advanced on that.
Debate Jesus all you want but you still do not know him or his message. The well of ignorance is from blindness either deliberate rejection of or lack of discernment in, knowledge. But you sure have ritualism, oh yeah ritualism from others not knowledge from the Good within that Jesus referred to constantly, not just once or twice, he constantly referred to the Father within in every Gospel except John and that was only because Church dogma did not want to lose the grasp of the supernatural term you hold to, “God”, so they interchanged Jesus referral of “Father” and substituted God in its place but it was the still the main myth of the Pharisees, the Ancients and the Gr/Rom Mythologies. It was not the preference of Jesus. Jesus referred to “God” when he referred to the ancient texts ‘I said you are gods’ but that also is only found in John 10:34 because he spoke to the Pharisees in the only language they would understand, the biblical supernatural language religion is still stumped by and stuck in non-understanding with. No matter how much you may believe in water and earth soil, mix them together in non-understanding or misunderstanding and you are still spinning your tires in the mud Naz. I don’t blame you for that; it is religious indoctrination but you have to start reading Jesus from the non supernatural perspective otherwise you will always be on the defensive about your misunderstanding. You and most of the whole world represent the three words indoctrination are made up and part of, the “IN- DOCTRINE-NATION”. That is your Nation. Not Jesus’ nation and not my nation.
Why do you suppose Jesus railed against the Nation you foster, for three and a half years? saying “The (religious) world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.” He told them plainly that their world of the supernatural was bullish and wrong and locked the doors for true believers, “Good” people, to go in and refusing to go in themselves in order to maintain their facade of deceit.
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December 23, 2015 at 4:21 pm
On Theology, Christology & Pneumatology:
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December 24, 2015 at 1:02 pm
Let’s go for 100 posts ! Here we go….
Leo, sorry for calling you stupid but as Forest Gump said “Stupid is as stupid does” 🙂
I hope you can take time and reflect why the entire world is celebrating Christmas.I know I know it’s materialism etc… but at the core the world is celebrating the greatest truth ever that there is something, rather someone beyond ourselves and there is someone out there…
More than that, the Great I AM became human flesh, Jesus of Nazareth to die in our place so that He could live in us and not just be “out there”.
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(Col 1:26-27)
No more mysteries Leo, we have the truth. Embrace it.
Merry Christmas.
Naz
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December 24, 2015 at 2:41 pm
Naz: Merry Christmas.
I understand your sentiment about Jesus but the sins of a corrupt world is what did him in. What he brought however to me was the message through his life and whether or not you accept that, if we both arrive at the same adoratiion by different reasons that’s okay too. I believe it by his life and you believe it by his death; the important thing is that we have arrived.
Nevertheless I shall attempt to open your mind just a teensy weensy tiny bit about the Christmas Season.
Simple Sermons Serving Saint and Sage:
Proverbial wisdom: An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge; wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you and with all thy getting get understanding.
No, you do not know, the reason humanity celebrates Christmas. The reason Christmas is celebrated began a long time ago as the Human Estrus Season when people congregated like so many deer for the annual “rut” and was well celebrated in ancient times and indeed well documented biblically in Jeremiah Chapter 10 long before Jesus was born. Read it…..
2Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men..”
Christmas, before it was called Christmas, was the Biggest Party Bandwagon in town so the early Pharisee Christians hijacked the Biggest Bandwagon on earth to launch their campaign to promote the following (of Jesus) by celebrating the birth of Jesus. And it has been successful for 2000 years; look at yourself as an example of being duped; read Jeremiah Chapter 10 that describes in the exact same way the Christmas celebration of men and women coming together to meet, to court, to engage and to have families of guess what?…… CHILDREN. And how does that happen? Every species have their season don’t you know? November meets, December courts, January engages and February affirms “I love you Valentine”.
This seasonal activity in humans, although long since circumvented by evolutionary progress, may also have been initially a photoperiodic response to coincide with the harvest season, nine months after the meet & greet of (marriage/rut) ritual heat. lol
And you know one cannot discount scripture.
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December 26, 2015 at 8:34 am
For He will deliver the needy when he cries for help, the humble also, and him who has no helper. (Psalm 72:12)
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December 26, 2015 at 5:26 pm
Re: post # 101 —
“And you know one cannot discount scripture.”
Yes, we do.
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December 26, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Frank…OMG
Finally you admit that you discount scripture because of your staunch belief when it does not conform to the dogma you’ve been taught . There it is in black and white; now many people do you expect will now consider anything you say; well, not “say” in your case but who will give any thought to the hour long videos you post trying to support what you just can’t put into words yourself?
Re: post # 101 —
“And you know one cannot discount scripture.”
Yes, we do.
You know, your answer is exactly the answer your ancestors the Pharisees gave Jesus when Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6 “I said you are Gods” and to which the Pharisees claimed was blasphemy against religious dogma. Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)……
…Frank you are arguing against Jesus again and again and think you are cleverly proclaiming his message? HUH?
Do you have another video to reply against Jesus? I don’t want to hear anymore the videos you cherry pick to debate Jesus.
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December 27, 2015 at 9:53 am
“I understand your sentiment about Jesus but the sins of a corrupt world is what did him in. What he brought however to me was the message through his life and whether or not you accept that, if we both arrive at the same adoration by different reasons that’s okay too. I believe it by his life and you believe it by his death; the important thing is that we have arrived.”
Leo, yes the sins of this world did “do Him in”, that was the whole point. But He has conquered sin and is now still alive. It is not merely His earthly life but His life that continues on earth through the Spirit that continues to live. I have arrived not only because of His death but because of His resurrection and new life that He has given me.
Even though you deny the resurrection, your adoration of Jesus proves that He is still tugging at your heart. You need to ask yourself why Jesus of Nazareth apprehends you unlike any other individual in human history.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Naz
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December 27, 2015 at 1:00 pm
Naz: A few points to note.
1. You have Faith in Jesus and I have knowledge of Jesus so I don’t know what you mean by faith, faith is for people who are knowledgeless. So get acquainted.
2. Jesus was not crucified for the sins of the world; he was crucified because of sins of the world, not for your sins or for my sins and not FOR future sins; he was crucified BECAUSE of sin not FOR sin and not EVEN FOR the remission of sin. Remission of sins was the dogmatic ritual the Pharisees taught with the spilling and sprinkling of sacrificial blood but that was a useless ritual then and using the same terms by saying Jesus blood is for the remission of sin is as useless today as the blood of birds and goats and livestock was yesterday. If Jesus was here today he would still be pursued by those who live and love sin; that is, without regard for good or for humanity and when we look around the world in its daily operations it doesn’t seem to have done any good at all in the last two thousand years; the sins that crucified him then, still permeate and rule the world today. The world is so slow to get it together it’s practically going backwards. Retarded by supernatural religion.
3. Jesus does not have to tug at me, HE IS where I AM. I participate because of his Revolution of eye for eye, turn the other cheek, forgiveness, compassion and common sense, without worrying about sacrifices and offerings “…you have not desired Father…” or about the approval that comes from others.
I have arrived because of his life and message that spoke to the same spirit living in me that was living in him, when I was twelve years old; I did not get that spirit from Jesus, I already had it; it had nothing to do with the perceived resurrection from the dead, albeit I did understand that because he spoke so vehemently against the rituals of organized religion the priests and ministers and clergy of his day who suffered from ego tripping religious power that held the masses in thrall using the reins of life and death to rule over them put him at risk. He was in danger from the Authority that was suppose to be there to serve the people, but serving the people was secondary to serving themselves and protecting their interests first and foremost. They were hypocrites because of the frauds they perpetuated through the church promoting the works of the church even though clergy knew very well that the works of the church were evil, securing only finances for themselves and to use to bribe others and materialism to enchant those who loved enchantment.
Even though they were out to hunt him down by offering bounties on his head and declaring that anybody who knew his whereabouts had a civic and religious duty to turn him in to the authorities (John 10: 57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.) and we know that commandments from the clergy entailed capital punishment for disobedience); nevertheless, he continued to expose the clergy for the vile creatures of hypocrisy they were, but needed to be alert, clever and very careful to avoid them, all the while still helping the poor and the downtrodden with a message to get out of the religious rut they were stuck in by the false teachings of the clergy.
Jesus brought hope to the poor by exposing the evil of Church Dogma.
And in the meanwhile, Jesus had to deceive his enemies to escape the clutches of those religious fanatics who wanted to manhandle him, beat, bash and thrash him, assault, whip, scourge, browbeat, mock, punch, scratch, kick, lash, stab, hate, accuse and eventually arrest and nail his hands and feet to a cross in crucifixion. But before this he had to hide from, to avoid, pass around, disguise himself, give them the slip, leave by the back door, jump in the boat, pack up for the desert, to avoid perverted religious insanity of hate and death to anybody criticizing by being a whistle blower about their deceitful preaching, hate and death; and, he would have to do the same thing today as every religious zealot is ready to pounce on anybody disagreeing with the generally accepted dogma that church clergy circles preach erroneously.
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December 28, 2015 at 11:53 am
Re: post # 106 —
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (Hosea 4:6)
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March 14, 2018 at 9:08 pm
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