Much of the Bible is written in narrative form. It tells a story – a true story, but a story nonetheless. There is a lot of information in the Bible to digest, and it’s easy to get lost in the details and miss the big picture. So how does one put it all together? What is the essence of the Biblical story? What is the basic story line from Genesis to Revelation? Various attempts have been to condense the major themes and events in the Bible into a coherent, terse story line. Here is my attempt to arrange the puzzle pieces into a clear picture, such as it is. I hope it will tie together some loose ends that may exist in your mind and offer you a bird’s-eye view of the greatest story ever told:
The Story of Christianity from Beginning to End
Before the universe existed, God existed alone – eternal and unchanging. But God desired to reveal His glory and share His love with creatures who could enjoy Him forever, so He created a universe to be inhabited by His greatest creation of all, humankind. Of all the things God made, only humans were made in God’s likeness. He endowed them with moral and rational capacities so they could have fellowship with Him and responsibly govern the new creation as His regents.
Humans were created perfect and sinless, but God gifted them with a will that was free to choose fellowship with their Creator or reject Him. Tragically, humans misused their free will to reject God’s loving rulership and moral authority, proclaiming themselves as the new sovereigns over the earth. Their act of defiance introduced evil, pain, suffering, and death into the human race, and broke the perfect fellowship they had with God. Evil polluted the human will, predisposing them toward evil rather than the good (a sin nature).
To justify their moral rebellion against God’s moral laws, many humans denied the existence of the moral law giver Himself, erecting false gods in His place whose rules are more to our liking. To address this human tendency, God provided all humans with subtle but striking reminders of His existence: God is revealed through the glory of His natural creation and the moral law written on our hearts (known as the conscience).
Most humans suppressed this knowledge of God, so evil continued to increase each generation until the world became so full of evil that God determined to destroy the human race by a flood. Noah and his family found grace in God’s sight, however, and were spared from death by an ark. Not long after, however, men rebelled against God again and returned to their evil and idolatrous ways. Rather than destroying humankind again, God determined to redeem us. He chose to do so through one faithful man: Abraham.
God promised Abraham a land to dwell in and numerous descendants, one of which would be the savior of mankind. Abraham’s descendants did grow, but became slaves in Egypt for 400 years. God miraculously delivered them from Egypt through the leadership of Moses, gave them a set of laws to obey, and led them to the land He promised Abraham. There, they grew into a mighty nation.
At about this time, God began to reveal Himself more explicitly and more fully by declaring His will to specific individuals whom He charged to pass the information on to others in written form. These written records of divine revelation have been collected in what we call the Bible. It includes vital information about God including His character, how He has acted in history to redeem mankind, how we ought to live, and His future plans for us.
While some people responded positively to this additional revelation from God, due to our sin nature, most rebelled against it just as they had rebelled against His more subtle revelation. God’s people living in God’s promised land continued to sin and worshipped false gods. After centuries of extending grace to this rebellious people, God allowed them to be defeated by foreign armies and carried away to foreign lands in hopes that they would repent.
Some of Abraham’s descendants did repent, and eventually returned to the land. It was clear, however, that even a written revelation from God was not sufficient to mend mankind’s relationship with God. An even greater revelation of God would be needed. It was time to reveal the ultimate descendent promised to Abraham: Jesus Christ.
Jesus was conceived by God in the womb of Mary, a virgin. He was no ordinary man or prophet, but God Himself in human existence – both fully God and fully man. Through the miracle of the incarnation, God Himself came to personally exist as and experience life as a genuine human being. While God had previously revealed Himself to humankind through creation, conscience, and sacred writings, now God could reveal Himself to us as one of us.
God became a human so He could reverse the damage humans wrought in the beginning and restore the fellowship we once enjoyed with God. Jesus’ mission was to pay the penalty for our moral rebellion – death – by dying on the cross, and then defeat death itself by rising again three days later.
The penalty for sin is death. We deserve death because we have sinned, but Jesus was sinless, and thus had no need to die. He chose to die on a cross, however, not to pay for His own sins, but to pay for ours. Because God was man, He could experience death. And because Jesus was divine, His sacrifice was of infinite value and thus sufficient to pay the sin debt of all human beings.
He did not stay dead, however. To confirm His divine identity and the truthfulness of His teachings, He rose again from the dead on the third day, overcoming death on behalf of all mankind, and securing eternal life. This historical event is the very basis for the Christian faith, and sets Jesus apart and above all other religious figures. Before Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, He promised to return to earth again one day and raise our bodies from the dead in the same way His body was raised from the dead. We will dwell with God in this renewed body in a renewed creation, enjoying fellowship with Him forever.
Until that time, however, He has commissioned us to tell everyone about the good news of His death and resurrection, and that through Him, we can be forgiven and enjoy eternal life with God. He has enabled us for the task by filling us with His Spirit, empowering us to preach Jesus’ message with boldness and confirm it with miraculous signs.
Left to ourselves, we have no hope. Death and eternal separation from God in hell is our just punishment for our sin. But Jesus brings hope. If we put our trust in Jesus (believing that He paid the penalty for our sins in His death and defeated death in His resurrection), and if we make a decision to submit to Christ’s moral authority, and if we identify with Jesus’ death and burial through water baptism, and if we receive the gift of His Holy Spirit, our fellowship with God will be restored and we will enjoy eternal life with Him.
February 19, 2016 at 2:03 pm
As the old saying goes, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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February 19, 2016 at 7:01 pm
“Know therefore that YHWH your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; but repays those who hate Him to their faces, to destroy them; He will not delay with him who hates Him, He will repay him to his face.” (Deuteronomy 7:9-10)
“Only in the New Covenant does the Old unfold,
And hidden lies the New Testament in the Old.” (Augustine)
Click to access BibleHistoryOldTestament-Edersheim.pdf
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February 19, 2016 at 9:13 pm
Jason,
You don’t know me, but I know you from your short writings and I really appreciate them. It’s easy to see you love God and want to reach a world dead in their sin so they can be saved. I love this about you. I feel the same way and believe Jesus Christ is the one true God and in Him (and Him only) is salvation, for ALL the fulness of God dwells in Christ (permanently abides in Him). Without getting into doctrine too deeply, I believe 2 Sam 14:14, and the plan God made to not let man (the banished one) to not be cast out from Him on the last day is accomplished through the baptism with water into Christ and the baptism with the Holy Spirit of Christ into us. This was accomplished through the blood of His cross (Col 1:20), However, it is important to recognize that God not only reconciled man through the blood of his cross, but all of His creation.
I know, that you know there was a tree of knowledge of good ands evil in the garden of Eden when God placed Adam there. This means God’s creation was already corrupted with sin before God placed Adam in the garden of Eden. I am not saying sin was present in heaven, but I am saying the knowledge of it was present before man was placed in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, we cannot believe God would have looked upon His creation and saw all that He had made was very good (Gen 1:31), unless He reconciled all things to Himself.
This means, an important part of your synopsis has been overlooked, because all of God’s creation is important to Him. Man is the only creature that keeps God from being alone (Gen 2:18). We know this true, because it’s true about man who is made in the image and likeness of God. it must be true about God also. In fact, the word of God mandates it!
I have much more to say concerning these things, but would like to hear your response.
Kevin
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February 19, 2016 at 9:50 pm
Jason, I see one gaping hole: No mention of Isaac or Jacob or Joseph. You jump right from Abraham to Moses. I submit the story can’t fully be appreciated unless a telling of Israel’s life and the forming of the nation around his sons, is told.
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February 20, 2016 at 5:32 am
Jason,
Excellent summary of the Bible. Your theme “So how does one put it all together?” is a question that should be more often asked.
Years ago, I would fish on the great lakes of Canada that were north of al roads. The water was pure and we drank straight from the lake.
During that time I was also a Sunday School teacher and I sometimes made the comment “The Bible is like a great Canadian Lake. You can drink all you want and never get much below the surface.”
One can and should read the Bible every day. Over and over and over, day after day and year after year. I have done that and my opinion is I have barely scratched the surface.
The Bible fascinates me for many reasons and one is that it is inexhaustible in a way like no human work could ever be.
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February 20, 2016 at 8:11 am
Post 2:
What a difference a comma makes.
“Only in the New Covenant does the Old unfold,
And hidden lies the New Testament in the Old.” (Augustine)
“Only in the New Testament does the Old Testament unfold the hidden lies.
Because the Gospel of Jesus revealed, the New Testament still practiced the Old.” (Revelator)
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February 20, 2016 at 9:36 am
Greetings. Presumption is the mother of all natural minds, it seems. I am Apostolic in every way. I believe in the message that you believe in. What I cannot get is the presumption that we have in saying God was ‘alone’ from everlasting to everlasting. And, that must be the reasoning behind the creation of mankind. Really? He was alone? A God who has no beginning and no end, was alone? How do you know this? The statement that says God was alone begins your article as suspect in that it tells people about God in a way that shows that you must know more than others about thing’s like quantum dimensions, or, the multi-dimensional world where God must live. Or, etcetera……I’m just wondering if we think we know as much as we think we do in suggesting certain aspects of God when we make assumptions about his personal being. How many other universes is it possible for God to have created, or, what other creations are there that our finite minds have not the ability to even consider are ‘out there’ some where? Even if we make it to heaven, we may never know! How can we make statements in the now about what God only has ever known?
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February 20, 2016 at 9:45 am
Kevin:
It seems strange to me that Jesus says none of the things you say about anything. That’s why you never quote Jesus just all the converts who themselves did not know much about Jesus since he trusted himself to none of them. But your references are not untypical, all believers who claim Jesus always quote everybody else too because only the preachers of the day and those who came after could possibly so totally misinterpret Jesus’ life and misrepresent him so absolutely wrong. Jesus told Nicodemus about being born again of water, the traditional cleansing and used it metaphorically to transit to the being “born again”. like water tradition but introduced the concept of the spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
If Jesus wanted to use water baptism the way you want to use it. He would have said: “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Water.”
So water was Jesus’ metaphorical introduction, the transition parable from the flesh which had been practiced for thousands of years to the greater of the two the spirit which previously had NEVER BEEN PRACTICED, TALKED ABOUT OR UNDERSTOOD except IN THE NEGATIVE….such as when the epileptic had a “seizure” or a “behavior”; that’s when the Demonic Spirits came into vogue.
If you get caught up trying to explain a doctrine that does not apply to Jesus you are in doctrinal trouble that will misguided you and all the others you try to misguide because of your myopism. Once you commit to a fallacy you will arrest Galileo, make him recant and house arrest him for heresy for the rest of his life and ban his publications of the truth that debunks your doctrinal erroneous message. Stay out of the ditch and stick to Jesus not the preachers who followed afterward and still misrepresent him today with lies and Christmas trees and baptism, speaking in tongues, healing retreats with false witness feigning disease and cures, miracle water in ketchup packages, laying on of hands, poof poof one miracle after another and separating humanity to continue its downfall of alienating the rest of humanity from false doctrines dogmatically pursued. It’s accepting the spirit of the Father within, finding finding the son’s father and understand the message is about spirit not water or flesh or physical…
The metaphyscial, invisible, internal spirit within, without going overboard into the supernatural occultism of the paranormal, is the real deal, NOT the physical visible”; in other words, the pragmatic, externals of mere religion are not satisfying to the Father/Son Spirit. It isn’t that a man goes once a week in a piece of real estate. Or simply undergoes as a matter of tradition and form certain sacraments, like Baptism.
Metaphorically, He died. In the forfeiture of that life for which man was made and for three hours a man, physically alive hanging on a cross. Made sin but spiritually dead. You see when he was made sin and the Father and the holy spirit departed from the son and left him dead, not physically dead, spiritually dead, the sun was darkened and then the veil was rent. And many who were sleeping (metaphorically) returned to their families as they awakened from their “walk of death” for the cares and riches and pleasures of the world and presumed dead by many like the prodigal son squandering their life. Until they came to their senses by the unselfish act of someone putting their life on the line, putting their life at risk in exposing the hoax of religion, a ransom in order to open the eyes of the walking dead.
It is most difficult to see the truth, to even consider the truth, when you have been bombarded with lies all your life. Absolute Certainty is a very addictive drug and the indoctrinated mind of the reptile brain, with enough chanting and finger beading, prayers, sacrifices, sacraments and meaningless ritualisms will turn repetitious fakery into truthery after repeating it enough; like pavlov’s dog salivating at the sound of the call to church or the ringing of the church bells. Religious Ritualism is Psychological waterboarding.
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February 20, 2016 at 12:26 pm
Lloyd Allan)Dale:
The entire concept of God is based on the presumptions you comment about, from being alone, to seeing it was good very good, and then he was grieved by man and sought to destroy that which he created and then being sorry and put a rainbow as a sign he would never destroy the earth again, so on and so forth. Great lines for Hollywood and Church.
“God desired to reveal His glory and share His love with creatures……” And so he created the creatures to share his love with? How ludicrous. The concept of God could not ever have been created without the attributes that make man, man,
THE DAWNING:
[1] MAN created God in his own image and gave Him the Perfect Attributes of Deity.
[2] THESE are those attributes which Man aspires to but the likes of which Man has also determined to be impossible to achieve
[3] MAN sets the highest standards for his God and then pre-ordains those standards to be unreachable by Man using the phrase “God Willing” thus insuring
[4] THE justification for Man as he goes about his business of being just the opposite of the attributes he has given to his God
[5] BEING stupid, unforgiving, greedy, a liar, a cheat, a stealer, a killer, a deceiver and a most hateful and
[6] MURDEROUS character of which even among his own kind many cannot believe
[7] HE IS capable of the worse acts of atrocity on his fellow man, the environment and the life forms which support him
Salvia divinorum (also known as sage of the diviners, ska maría pastora, seer’s sage, yerba de la pastoraand just salvia) is a psychoactive plant which can induce visions and other altered and spiritual experiences.
S. divinorum is also known as la hembra (“the female”), when it is included by the Mazatec as part of a family of similar religious hallucinogens. The others it is connected with are Coleus pumila, called el macho (“the male”), and two forms of Coleus blumei which are called el nene (“the child”) and el ahijado (“the godson”).
In their rituals, the shamans use only fresh S. divinorum leaves. They see the plant as an incarnation of the Virgin Mary, and begin the ritual with an invocation to Mary, Saint Peter, the Holy Trinity, and other saints. Ritual use traditionally involves being in a quiet place after ingestion of the leaf—the Maztec shamans say that “La Maria (S. divinorum) speaks with a quiet voice.”
I think the creators of the Gods were on this type or similar drug when they divined the Gods into their lives.
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February 20, 2016 at 12:58 pm
Leo,
Jesus said “Let their be light and there was light . . . and every word spoken by the Lord God of the Old Testament was spoken by the Lord God of the New Testament; Jesus Christ.
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February 20, 2016 at 1:05 pm
Leo,
Why do you even care about these things? If you don’t believe God exists, then no one can be lost or saved, therefore no one needs to be saved from anything.
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February 20, 2016 at 2:37 pm
Leo,
Try re-working the coma here:
“Novum Testamentum in vetere latet, Vetus in novo patet.”
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=cQwyAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=%22Novum+Testamentum+in+vetere+latet,+Vetus+in+novo+patet.%22&source=bl&ots=qefH4r_erR&sig=8066yLaJmQ9MowXXuRAQXc2J1Ng&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAkbHfr4fLAhWJxpAKHS6cCS4Q6AEIPDAF#v=onepage&q=%22Novum%20Testamentum%20in%20vetere%20latet%2C%20Vetus%20in%20novo%20patet.%22&f=false
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February 20, 2016 at 3:21 pm
Re: post # 8 —
“It’s accepting the spirit of the Father within, …”
Acts 17:10-11
http://www.theberean.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.showBerean/BereanID/777/Luke-17-21.htm
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/515/Kingdom-of-God-Within-You.htm
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February 20, 2016 at 7:19 pm
As votivesoul points out: “No mention of Isaac or Jacob or Joseph.”
Joseph also serves as a key type of Christ called Messiah Ben Joseph, the suffering Messiah, as opposed to the Son of David or Messiah Ben David.
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/thetwocomings.htm
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February 21, 2016 at 1:17 am
Hi Kevin,
You wrote, “I know, that you know there was a tree of knowledge of good ands evil in the garden of Eden when God placed Adam there. This means God’s creation was already corrupted with sin before God placed Adam in the garden of Eden.” How does that follow? The presence of the tree was not itself the presence of evil. As I understand it, the tree was just an ordinary tree. What brought the knowledge of evil was disobedience to God’s command. He could have commanded them not to pick flowers from the Field of Morality and the result would had been the same had Adam and Eve picked those flowers.
Having said that, I do believe evil was present in creation when Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden because we know the serpent was there. The angels appear to have fallen prior to Day 6. However, though they are created beings, they are not part of our created world (physical reality). We were the first ones to introduce sin into creation.
What do you mean when you write, “Therefore, we cannot believe God would have looked upon His creation and saw all that He had made was very good (Gen 1:31), unless He reconciled all things to Himself.” How could God have reconciled everything to himself at that point in time? If he had, then why was the serpent in the Garden?
Yes, all of creation is important to God, but man is the pinnacle of creation and the focus of everything God does. And since my synopsis is focused on the story of man’s redemption, that is the focus of my synopsis.
Jason
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February 21, 2016 at 1:18 am
Votivesoul,
If I was writing an essay highlighting every major Biblical character, I would agree, but my purpose was to condense the story line as much as possible. My goal was not to highlight every major event or person, but to portray the basics of the Christian worldview (God, creation, the fall, Jesus/salvation, future hope), judgment for sin, the progressive nature of divine revelation, and what Christ’s death and resurrection means to humanity. As important as Joseph and Jacob are, they do not contribute anything significant to that story line.
Jason
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February 21, 2016 at 1:18 am
Dale,
You wrote, “What I cannot get is the presumption that we have in saying God was ‘alone’ from everlasting to everlasting. And, that must be the reasoning behind the creation of mankind.” Just to clarify, I didn’t say God created mankind because he was alone (and saying he was alone is not the same as saying he was lonely). I said God “But God desired to reveal His glory and share His love with creatures who could enjoy Him forever.” God created us for our benefit, not His own.
Why think God was alone? Because Scripture says so. Consider John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
This text presents us with two categories of things: The Word (who is God), and everything that was made. To say something was made is to say that it came into existence. If something comes into existence, then it cannot be eternal because eternal things never come into existence. They always exist. According to John, there is only one thing that has always existed: The Word/God. Everything else that exists came into existence a finite time ago when it was caused to come into being by The Word/God. Since The Word/God is the only entity that is eternal, and everything else came into existence, it follows that there was once a state in which The Word/God existed alone.
That God existed alone prior to creation is evident on rational grounds as well. For any entity we designate, we can ask why it exists. Things don’t just pop into existence from absolutely nothing uncaused. So where does Y get its being from? There are only two options. Either its being is derived (or “borrowed”) from some prior X that caused Y to exist (contingent), or it has the property of having being in itself (necessary). Anything that begins to exist cannot have being in itself, for that would deny the metaphysical principles that ‘something can only come from something’ and that ‘things which begin to exist are caused to exist by some other existing entity.’ So unless we are prepared to say that things can pop into existence without any material cause or efficient cause, we have to acknowledge that anything which begins to exist is not self-existing, but derives its existence from some prior causal entity. But not everything can derive its existence from some prior causal entity, for this would invite an infinite regress (which is logically absurd). Eventually we must come to a being that is eternal and self-existing, and the ultimate source for every other being. We only need one such entity to explain all of the other contingent entities. And such Ockham’s Razor says we should not multiply entities beyond necessity, we should presume that there is only one such being. And as I mentioned previously, it is theologically problematic for Christian theology to think that any beings other than God are eternal and self-existent.
Jason
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February 21, 2016 at 11:17 am
Kevin:
Who heard this? “Let their be light and there was light . . . and every word spoken by the Lord God of the Old Testament” Nobody but wannabee Messenger Prophets claimed whatever they wanted. And one had to accept it on pain of death.
THE PREMISE AND THE CONCLUSION:
God’s will, so called, is revealed in the “holy” scriptures. The sacred book formulates the will of God and specifies what is to be given to the clergy. Clergy become parasites. “… All things of life are so ordered that the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. Not to speak of ‘sacrifice’ (meal–times)… .” Natural values become utterly valueless. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience of God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power. Sex without Clergy permission is sinful, lust, fornication, adultery.
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February 21, 2016 at 11:23 am
Post 11:
I care because it’s Jesus, not the Gods of mythology. Get the gods of mythology out of your head and connect with Jesus, the real Jesus.
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February 21, 2016 at 2:35 pm
God’s Covenantal Love:
And the majority’s response:
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February 21, 2016 at 4:19 pm
Jason:
You said: “God created us for our benefit, not His own.” However, there are criteria for our humanity that disagrees with that statement found in the bible of course.:
The first is found in the last verse, the 11th of the 4th chapter of the Book of Revelation. Revelation 4:11. I like it the way it’s written in the King James, though it’s rendered somewhat differently in other translations but with the same inner sense. Thou art worthy oh Lord to receive glory and honor and power; thou has created all things and for thy pleasure, they were and are created. In other words, God having created all things, created them for his pleasure. To please him.
So what is your supreme preoccupation and mind the moment we claim to be restored in normality to a correct relationship to our Maker? There’s only one preoccupation, to please him. Whoever else I don’t please or do please, I have only one supreme ambition: that what I do and say and am, pleases him.
The Lord Jesus, John 8:29, I do always those things that please him. And the Father said This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. In assuming our humanity he submitted himself to the first prerequisite of man’s humanity. To please God.
That’s why the next principle is very obvious. You’ll find it in Hebrews 11, verse 6. Without faith, it is impossible to please him. Your supreme criterion that makes you man from God’s point of view, that you please him but without faith it is impossible to please him. So faith isn’t optional, faith isn’t a matter of taste, faith isn’t up for grabs, faith is a disposition, the mind that was in Christ Jesus. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ, Jesus who let God do it.
How does man define freedom? Well, do as I please. Five o’clock, office is closed, I can do as I please. The Manager’s away for the week, we can do as we please. School’s out at half past three, we can do as we please; I’m on vacation, I can do as I please. I’ve reached the top, I’m now the boss, I can do as I please. The Lord Jesus said, I’m free. I’m free. Because in the sinlessness of my humanity I’ve entered into no contract, I have submitted myself to no obligation, I have indebted myself to nobody in such a way that I could not at all times do only exclusively what pleases him. That’s freedom. You are free ladies and gentlemen when you have entered into no contract, indebted yourself to nobody, or any organization or denominational group, you’ve entered into no alliance that would make it at anytime impossible for you to do other than please him, then you’re free. Free. That’s perfect freedom.
The third and last obvious point is this.
Romans 14:23, Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin. Anything you do that derives from other than letting Divine Logic do it, is sin. Sin isn’t an act. Sin is that errant, conceited attitude of human self sufficiency. Sin is that attitude that says Divine Logic is for old women and those who need a crutch. That’s just where you’re wrong. You’re the devil’s dupe. That’s why your life is so twisted. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, in the day that man believed the devil’s lie that a man could be man with the supernatural God and not the Divine Logic within you and embarked on that mad experiment of human self sufficiency, the holy spirit was withdrawn from the human spirit and man had a body and a soul just like any other animal but not being protected by instinct couldn’t behave like an animal and not now being governed by the Father couldn’t behave like a man so he behaves like the maniac he does and you and I are the heirs of the chaos and the anarchy and holocaust that is the inevitable consequence of man’s stupidity and Divine Logic is saying GET BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG!
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February 21, 2016 at 4:51 pm
HI Jason,
I also said, ”I am not saying sin was present in heaven, but I am saying the knowledge of it was present before man was placed in the Garden of Eden”. Therefore, I was not alluding to the tree being the presence of evil. The fact the knowledge of sin was present tells us that sin had to already been committed somewhere, therefore God’s creation was corrupted by sin somewhere and sometime before Adam and Eve sinned.
You wrote “: Having said that, I do believe evil was present in creation when Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden because we know the serpent was there. The angels appear to have fallen prior to Day 6. However, though they are created beings, they are not part of our created world (physical reality). We were the first ones to introduce sin into creation. End Quote.
God also created Heaven and the realms of the heavens and sin did not enter those realms through man, so how does it follow sin entered creation first by us when in your own words you acknowledge evil (Satan) was present before we sinned. It could only be present in something God created and only after He created it. Since sin entered God’s creation, prior to the creation of our world, we were not the first to introduce sin into creation. As I understand it, “the world” only refers to the realm of man, not the heavens not the earth, but to the realm of man only. We can only say that sin entered the realm of our world through the deception and disobedience of man. We cannot say sin entered the realm of God’s creation through us first.
Sin entered the world by the deception of Eve and the disobedience of Adam, but it definitely existed in God’s creation before it entered the world. Jesus did not come to only reconcile man to Himself, but to reconcile all things whether in heaven or on earth through the blood of His cross (Col 1:20).
You wrote, Quote: “What do you mean when you write, “Therefore, we cannot believe God would have looked upon His creation and saw all that He had made was very good (Gen 1:31), unless He reconciled all things to Himself.” How could God have reconciled everything to himself at that point in time? If he had, then why was the serpent in the Garden? End Quote.
This is a good question! What point in time do you think Gen 1:31 is? Do you realize it is “the point in time” when God saw ALL of His works after they were completed? Has that “point in time” been fulfilled, in the fullness of time? The answer is clearly No! So, why is the story of creation told in the past tense? The answer is; the story is told from the author’s point of view. Since, God is the author of the book, there is nothing that is left to be done from His point of view, for He completed all of His works before the foundation of the world, yet from our point of view, even the reconciliation of the heavens and the earth and all that are in them has not been completed in the fullness of time. The new original heaven and earth have not yet passed away, for they are still passing away (2 Peter 3:13, Rev 21:1 . . .). Understanding these things alone, one must abandon the idea each day of creation was begun and finished in 24 hours. The scriptures do not teach the concept of six days of God’s creation that were begun and completed in six 24-hour periods, yet many Biblical scholars commonly believe this upon in ignorance of what the scriptures actually teach. In my opinion, they ignore it because they believe it doesn’t matter, yet I just showed you that it matters if you really want to know who the only and true God is; Jesus Christ.
As I just stated, it seems that most scholars quickly overlook the story of creation, reasoning it doesn’t matter much to our salvation. I strongly disagree. It matters greatly to know God in order to be saved. To overlook the story of creation leads to not understanding and knowing the many hidden mysteries God placed in the creation story. God is the revealer of mysteries (Dan 2:28-29, 47) and grants the understanding of the mysteries of heaven (Matt 13:11), but if you bypass Genesis, especially chapters 1 thru 3, how can God grant you the understanding of His mysteries hidden with these scriptures? You know that the scriptures declare Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation and the firstborn of the dead so He would come to be first place in everything. (Col 1:18). If this is true, then should He not also be the first to be declared in the scriptures, right? When you read Gen 1:1, do you see Christ declared first? I do, because Col 1:18 declares He is “the beginning” and Rev 3:14, Jesus, Himself declares He is “the beginning of God’s creation”, therefore, being first in everything, Gen 1:1 declares Christ in a mystery “In the beginning”, God created the heavens and the earth”. This is God’s way of hiding a mystery in the scripture; understanding Jesus is “the beginning” of God’s creation, the hidden mystery is revealed in Gen 1:1: “In Jesus Christ” (the beginning; Col 1:18, Rev 3:14), God (in all that He is: Elohim) created the heavens and the earth. We need to know God and to know that God in all of His fullness, was in Jesus Christ before He ever spoke a word into creation. There is not any point in time that all the fullness of God was not in Christ, nor separate from Christ, because He has always been in Christ. In fact the One who said ‘let there be light” was Jesus Christ Himself (Col 1:16, John 1:3).
For another example, have you ever considered the Garden of Eden is a type and shadow of the first heaven, but not the type and shadow of the new heaven? If you haven’t, think about it . . . the first heaven God created became corrupted by sin, not by the sin of man, but by the sin of Satan and a third of God’s angels that followed him. Why is it a “type and shadow” of the first heaven, but not the new heaven? It’s very simple, just as the Garden of Eden, because of sin, passed away in the flood, the first heaven, because of sin, will pass away too. The New heaven will no longer have the knowledge of sin and evil (see Isa 65:17) “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind”. Simply put, the tree of knowledge of good and evil will not be planted in the new heaven or new earth, nor will the new heaven ever be corrupted by sin and it will never pass away. According to ISA 65:17, We will not even remember sin existed.
So, what does this mean? It means we are still living in the sixth day of God’s creation. It has not yet been completed in the fullness of time. According to the scriptures (not science), the six days of creation were not completed in 114 hours (6 days x 24 hours). We know this because God rested from ALL His works when He completed all of them. Since all of His works have not been completed, meaning, in the fullness of time, the creation of man in God’s own image and according to His likeness is not yet complete and He has not yet abolished the last enemy; death, and He has not yet created the new heavens and new earth, and many other works He did. I say “He did” in the past tense, because the story of creation is told in Gen 1: 1-26 in the past tense, but this is strictly from God’s point of view, for He finished all His works before He began. From our perspective, ALL His WORKS have not been completed in the fullness of time.
These things are only a sample of what is hidden in the book of Genesis, but later revealed through the scriptures. From Genesis 2 through the book of Revelation, the Bible is telling the story of the ‘Saga of the Sixth Day of God’s Creation”. It explains how God created us in the beginning and how He created us in the end, meaning we were created in Jesus Christ, who is “beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”. Besides him, there is no other God and without Him there is no beginning, nor an end! He is Lord of all.
If we understand the Old Testament is types and shadows of what is revealed in the New Testament, we can see the scriptures preaching the Gospel beginning with God fashioning Eve from the rib bone of Adam, meaning God did not form Eve out of the dust of the ground, He fashioned (built) Eve from the bone of Adam’s bones and flesh of Adam’s flesh; the bride of the first Adam was borne of the flesh and bone of Adam, the bride (the Church) of the second Adam (Jesus Christ) is built of the bone of Christ’s bones and the flesh of Christ’s flesh through baptism with water into Christ’s and His atoning work of the cross (the type and shadow of this was first preached in the scriptures in Gen 3:21), and the breath of His breath is breath (His Spirit, the breath of Life) is breathed into us with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When we are born from above again of water and Spirit, we become the bride of the second Adam and will be resurrected by His Spirit (Col 1:27, 1 Peter 1:11) borne in His image; bone of His bones, and flesh of His flesh (Luke 24:39) There’s so much more . . .
In summary: The story of Christianity begins “in Jesus Christ and ends “in Jesus Christ”
The point I was making to you was to not overlook that God reconciled all of His creation through the blood of His cross and sin did not enter His creation through man, but sin did enter His creation of the world through man.
The following is a copy of my post on January 17, 2016. It explains what I am telling you about the story creation. I have much more to say about it, but I’ve already made a lengthy post.
Frank, Your point is relevant if man is the author of the Bible because it would be written from a man’s point of view. Since the story is told in the past tense, we would understand that all that was created and made contained evil. Fortunately, man is not the author of the Bible, God is. Like all authors, the book is written from the author’s point of view. This is a major difference as to how He sees things and we see things. He sees His work was finished before the foundation of the world. He sees Jesus Christ as the firstborn over all creation. He sees the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. He declares the end from the beginning. In fact, in a mystery, He declared Jesus Christ in the very first verse of scripture. (more on this later). If we look at the story of creation from God’s lenses, we can understand what He sees as if it already happened, has yet to be fulfilled in the fullness of time from man’s point of view.
For example, Gen 1: 1 says God made the heavens and the earth. There is no timetable given, nor a restriction to anything else. No mention of a creation that became corrupted by sin. From man’s view, it seems to mean the current heaven and earth, but from God’s view it would include the current heavens and earth that are passing away, and the new heavens and new earth that He reconciled incorruptible to Himself (free from sin and evil) before He rested on the seventh day (the day without end, the eternal day of God’s rest; The Sabbath). FYI: From man’s view God has already entered this rest and left us with the existence for evil, but from God’s view, man cannot see that God’s rest hasn’t come in the fullness of time (John 5:17). God is still working within the space and time of His creation to restore it.
The same view is in sight regarding the creation of man. You may not realize it, but Gen 1:26 is the first promise God made toward man and Gen 1: 27 says He kept that promise. There is no mention of the fall of man, yet He confirmed that He was pleased by the end of the day that man was made complete in His own image and according to His likeness (Gen 1:31). We also know, He no longer had any work to do for His creation was complete (Gen 2:1). From man’s view, it seems His creation is complete with the existence of sin because the story is told in the past tense. Again, from God’s view, He has not finished His work in the fullness of time (John 5:17). Jesus explained that His Father had not ever stopped working and He too was working. The work being done was reconciling all things to Himself in heaven and on earth. Until this work is done, the sixth day of creation cannot come to an end. So, once again, we see from man’s view that the sixth day of creation is past, but according to God’s viewpoint, it has not yet come to pass in the fullness of time. When it does, man will rest with God on the seventh day of His creation because the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. For this reason, the son of man; Jesus Christ, is the Lord of the Sabbath, the Lord of eternity! (Mark 2:27).
If you need further proof to what I am saying is true, please look at the creation of man. God made man in His own image and according to His likeness. We must ask ourselves; when was God ever like us? Meaning, when was His invisible spirit in a sinless body of flesh and blood just like our invisible spirit resides in a body of flesh and blood. If we were originally made in His own sinless image and according to His own likeness, then He too must have had a sinless temple of body of flesh and blood. The answer is in the fullness of time (several thousand years after He made Adam and Eve), He was born of a woman in flesh and blood; Jesus Christ. (From God’s viewpoint, He made us like Him in the beginning, but from our view we could not see it until the fullness of time. The next question is, when will we be made in the sinless image and likeness of God? The answer is in the end at the resurrection. We will be transformed into the sinless glory of Jesus Christ, raised incorruptible and made complete with a glorified body of spirit and flesh just as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So, from God’s viewpoint, by the end of the sixth day of His creation, God made a universe (and more) that contains no evil. (Isa 65:17 “ “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind”). The only relevant view is His and He has it all under His control!
He did it in the beginning and He did it in the end. He did it in Jesus Christ, who is the beginning and the end!!!
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February 21, 2016 at 4:54 pm
“This text presents us with two categories of things: The Word (who is God), and everything that was made.”
“IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.”
Thus this passage speaks about the power of language:
At the time the Hebrew scriptures were written, spoken language was considered to be very powerful. With a cosmology that viewed the creation as the result of an utterance, the name of the creator was considered very powerful knowledge, thus the word ; i.e., language itself was referred to as a metaphor for God!
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February 21, 2016 at 5:00 pm
The religious superstition developed because the pronunciation of the name of God considered to have such great power, it was kept a secret- only the highest-ranked members of the priesthood were entrusted with the knowledge. Even then, the Name was only pronounced during one time of the year, during the Feast of Atonement, Yom Kippur. At-One-Ment.
The commandment against “taking the Lord’s name in vain” had nothing to do with making disrespectful comments, but referred to the name’s inherent power. Similar superstitious name traditions existed in Babylonian and Egyptian religion.
Language; that is, the spoken word was the precursor to enact the deed itself.
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February 21, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Kevin, with all due respect, all you are doing with Genesis is trying to parse the language Moses used in his imaginative way trying to express what he believed MIGHT have happened, “In the Beginning”. Trying to make sense of Moses Imagination is worse than merely useless as most of what he wrote was taken from stories passed onto posterity about events that may or may not have happened with all the embellishment imagination is known to present.
How you arrange the plot points into a narrative is a fundamental part of being human.
The story was described by Reynolds Price, when he wrote:
A need to tell and hear stories is essential to the species Homo sapiens – second in necessity apparently after nourishment and before love and shelter. Millions survive without love or home, almost none in silence; the opposite of silence leads quickly to narrative, and the sound of story is the dominant sound of our lives, from the small accounts of our day’s events to the vast incommunicable constructs.
A theme does not belong to a specific story, but may be found with minor variation in many different stories. Themes may be no more than handy prefabricated parts for constructing a tale, or they may represent universal truths – ritual-based, religious truths.
“Legends”, are supposed to have actually happened, very often at a particular time and place, and they draw much of their power from this fact. When the supernatural intrudes (as it often does), it does so in an emotionally fraught manner. Ghost and lovers’ leap stories belong in this category, as do many UFO stories and stories of supernatural beings and events.
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February 21, 2016 at 6:59 pm
Leo,
The Bible, from the first page till the last page, is all about God revealing Himself to mankind. Its author is God and it’s a supernatural book. Jesus said, “The words I speak to you are Spirit (John 6:63). The words of scripture are spoken by God; Jesus Christ, therefore every word that is written is supernatural.
Jesus said that one must be granted the understanding of the mysteries of heaven, with all due respect, by not believing in God, it appears you have not been granted an understanding of the mysteries of heaven that have been, from ages long ago, written within the scriptures (Ps 78:2, Rom 16:25).
Jesus Christ is first in everything, including in the scriptures!
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February 21, 2016 at 10:17 pm
Kevin:
The words I write to you are spirit.
But Jesus did not speak the words you used in your commentary of Post 26. It was authored by Paul,(and not Paul’s actual words necessarily but written by Paul’s literary assistant Tertius while Paul was in Corinth in the winter of AD 57-58) but it was a greeting that alluded to Jesus by Paul’s assistant but you have taken it completely out of context and applied it as if it was Jesus speaking. It is rather crass to say the least.
“….23 Gaius, who is host here to both me and the whole church, wants to be remembered to you. Erastus, the city treasurer, and our good friend Quartus send their greetings.
“Jesus said that one must be granted the understanding of the mysteries of heaven……..” Jesus did not speak those words you quote from scripture either; those words come from Paul and the writer of Psalms 78:2 which says, “I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old”: how do you get “granting the understanding of the mysteries of heaven from those quotes?
What Jesus did say however was: “Don’t bicker among yourselves over me. You’re not in charge here. The Father who sent me is in charge. He draws people to me—that’s the only way you’ll ever come. No one has seen the Father except the One who has his Being alongside the Father…..and you can see me.” John 6:43-46
Did Paul or Tertius see the Father? Paul didn’t even see Jesus. Did Asaph see the Father; he never even saw Jesus but was one of the leaders in David’s choir! A music composer who wrote a song. WTF
And yet in
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
You cannot know the Father apart from knowing Jesus and you do not know Jesus because it appears, with all due respect Kevin, the spirit of the Father has not drawn you.
One of the mysteries of Heaven is that the Father dwells in his Kingdom and the Kingdom resides within you; he who listens to and hears Jesus therefore, knows Jesus and knows the Father by virtue of that relationship.
I know Jesus, the real Jesus; you only know what others claim Jesus to be and they are totally wrong about Jesus.
Jesus’ legacy is one of attitude and disposition, graceful and genuine in compassion and kindness, always ready to forgive those willing to receive it; a man so full of common sense and sound judgment that he had the wisdom to turn insight into foresight by recognizing the Father potential within everyman, not the supernatural gods created by charlatans, magicians, popoffs and snake oil salesmen selling miracle water in ketchup packages.
No, Jesus was a real man credited with supernatural powers because of his common sense ideas to tackle any problem. Jesus gave the presence of his peace to the world by his life, not through his death; the clergy has it all backward by claiming Jesus gave the world life through his death, uh uh. Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Jesus gave life to the world through his life not his death but supernaturalism caters to the residual reptilian ritualistic brain of humans and as long as you have clergy devoted to live off of the avails of prostituting falsehoods, myths and miracles for the financial security they solicit from those willing to give it to them, that’s religion for you, catering to Bingo the Money God for their own selfish egos.
And it was for this reason that That they said “…..whence hath this man…..?
You know, whenever the Lord Jesus preached, people were astonished; he was an astonishing preacher. Did you ever notice that, as you turned to the record given of his life on earth in the gospels?
yet the amazing thing is this: though this was that book from which the others were accustomed to preaching, when they listened to the Lord Jesus they were astonished,. For it says in the last verse in that chapter that he taught them as one having authority. Not as the Scribes; in other words, when the Lord Jesus got up, he spoke as though he said what he meant and meant what he said and had the right to say it. Nothing apologetic; he didn’t throw out a few suggestions. He didn’t say “I suppose”, “Maybe”, “I think”. His was a proclamation, not like the Scribe. When the professional preachers got up they nestled in the corner of their pew and went for a quiet doze hoping they’d wake up just before the benediction and preferably after the offering. But when the Lord Jesus,; when he got up, everybody was on the edge of their seat wondering what AMAZING thing he’d say next. He was an astonishing preacher.
If you were to turn on to the 13TH chapter of the same gospel, in the 54th verse of that 13th chapter of Matthew: “When the Lord Jesus was come into his own country he taught them in their synagogue insomuch that they were astonished and they said whence hath this man this man this wisdom, whence hath this man these mighty words and you recognize what they meant by “this man”. You see he was altogether too ordinary, as some of us have reminded ourselves, they’d known him as a little baby, nursed in his mother’s arms, that seen him clinging to her skirt, they’d seen him romping in the streets with his village pals, he was the one who as an apprentice at the bench was learning his trade, he was the man who came and fixed the window when it jammed, “this man”. And they tried to rationalize. You see, it would have been so much easier if he of had sort of a genius for a father or a mother, if he’d been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, everything that money could buy, he’d come back from this university and the other having gathered every kind of academic distinction and degree but he was too ordinary, “this man”.
Is not this the carpenter’s son, is not his mother called Mary and his brethren James and Joses and Simon and Judas and his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath “this man” all these things?
Now why were they astonished? You might quite sincerely say,
“Well they were astonished because they did not know that he was God”. But I think you’d be wrong. They were not astonished because they did not know that he was God; they were astonished because they did not know that he was……man. Not man as they were, not man as you and I are….but man as he is God, created man to be. Real man. That’s what made him astonishing. You see, you and I can derive an immense amount of comfort from the fact that when the Lord Jesus came into this world he didn’t come into this world to behave as God; though God he was. It behooving him in all points to be like unto his brethren, he assumed our flesh and blood; he was born a human being. And he came to be the truth. Not just to preach the truth, not just to proclaim or explain the truth; he said, “I am the truth”, I preach.
But he wasn’t only the truth about the way and the truth about the life, he was the truth about God, and the truth about man. You see anything you and I can know about God we see magnificently magnified in the person of Jesus Christ. As we have already reminded ourselves, said the Lord Jesus, he that has seen me has seen the father.
So here are two very simple points to establish: Jesus Christ in whom was seen the total glory of the father was the truth about God. But being the creator who made man, assuming his office, to fulfill his role was the truth about man. Now what is equally obvious is that the Lord Jesus was the truth about God because he was the truth about man because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God. In case I said that too fast, let me say it again. You see, all I’m doing is making the obvious, obvious; the tragedy is that obvious by and large is so obvious it ceases to be obvious. It’s the simplicity that is in Jesus. You see we are past masters at complicating the issue and turning our Christian faith into a complicated procedure when in point of fact, it derives from a person; it’s of him, through him, to him, all things to whom alone be glory. He’s the beginning and the end; he’s the author and the finisher of our faith; he’s the source and the sustenance; he’s the root and the fatness; Christ himself. And he came into this world to be the truth about God and the truth about man and he was the truth about God because he was the truth about man, because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God.
In summary Kevin, you wildly fling scriptures for your far flung fantasies and hope they stick when the fit hit the shan but they are as useless as you parsing the imagination of Moses who did a magic trick for Pharaoh by claiming it was a miracle from his true God, your true God Kevin your true God of magic tricks called miracles, that would be your supernatural God from Moses in the Old Testament. Some miracle, some God!
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February 21, 2016 at 10:40 pm
Kevin:
Salvia Divinorum a very strong hallucinogen, are you chewing on that psychoactive plant?
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February 22, 2016 at 12:47 am
Since we know that “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it? I, YHWH, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds.” (Jeremiah 17:9-10) We know that respecting Yahshua Messiah it is written: The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus/Yahshua had spoken. Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man. (John 2:18-25) Messiah being God has perfect wisdom, counsel, knowledge and understanding regarding the true condition in every human heart. “Am I a God who is near,” declares the LORD/YHWH, “And not a God far off? Can a man hide himself in hiding places so I do not see him?” declares YHWH. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares YHWH. (Jeremiah 23:23-24) It’s we who must recognize our profound, pernicious, connate unwholesomeness and repent; i.e., come by God’s regeneration in all humility to this mournful realization then act upon it genuinely by decidedly turning completely away from our transgressions toward our Lord & Savior’s lovingkindness; asking Him to change our corrupt heart for a new one with His truth written on it that we would bear fruit in keeping with repentance rather than perish [Ezekiel 16:60; Matthew 3:8]. For thus says the high and exalted One Who dwells in eternity, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, and also with the contrite and lowly of spirit in order to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.” (Isaiah 57:15)
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; (Ephesians 2:13, 17)
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February 22, 2016 at 3:58 am
Leo,
It’s apparent you posses a lot of knowledge of the scriptures. You especially place importance on the words of Jesus (although, His words were written by others) and it seems you dismiss all other words written by Moses, Paul, etc. Therefore, if I have understood you correctly, let’s discuss what you believe in, meaning the words of Jesus. If it’s agreeable to you let’s start with the encounter between Nicodemus and Jesus.
Why did Jesus rebuke Nicodemus for not understanding one must be born again, of water and spirit? (John 3.:11)
Respectfully yours,
Kevin
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February 22, 2016 at 7:40 am
Yes the words of Jesus were written by others; when Jesus was alone in the desert on his personal retreat, scriptures say he was led to be tempted by the devil so how would anybody know about what he was led into the retreat to meditate upon. Scripture speculates one thing, I postulate something entirely different without neglecting the thoughts he would have had about the way the clergy deceived the masses for their own benefit of power and financial security.
I would not say that Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding the concept of being born again in the spirit as Nicodemus indicated that he was only familiar with one quality of life and that was the flesh life of the body born of women; nevertheless, I believe that Jesus playfully chided Nicodemus by saying what you a leader of the people do not know about the spirit in a man?
Jesus used the metaphoric example of water, how water had always been the church’s way of explaining how to wash away the soil of normal body excretions but failed to grasp the concept that spirit was to the invisible man what water was to the visible man. And although being well versed in the clerical way of Pharisaical dogma of water cleansing, Nicodemus never made the transition connection of water to body and spirit to brain. The closest he came to understanding the concept was the sprinkling of blood for the remission of sin but that’s as far as the mind conceived until that time when Jesus added the spirit within dimensions , the real Kingdom of God within you.
Nicodemus was to remain in the bondage of the visible until Jesus eventually helped Nicodemus to understand the concept that body is to mind what soul is to emotion, what will is to spirit.
And then began a long bonding relationship that lasted until Nicodemus, along with Joseph of Arimathea another powerful member of the Sandhedrin went to retrieve the body and bathe it in aloe and spices as was the burial custom. After so many other discussions with Nicodemus I imagine, Nicodemus became an ardent supporter and disciple of Jesus albeit in secret for fear of the other members of the Sanhedrin of which he was also a participatory ruler of the masses of Jews. Nicodemus is reputed to have been the third wealthiest man in town.
One cannot imagine that this was the only conversation that Jesus had with both Nicodemus and Joseph during his 3 year campaign.
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February 22, 2016 at 8:20 am
Jason, thanks for the synopsis.
Our problem is not that we have not submitted to God’s authority or that we have rejected His Lordship etc…those are symptoms. Our problem is that Man is spiritually dead. The solution is not for Man to pull himself from his bootstraps and submit to Christ’s moral authority and be baptized in a tub of water. The solution is spiritual rebirth. Man must be born again. Like our natural birth, we do not participate in our spiritual rebirth, it is an act of God. We are dead in Adam and we are made alive in Christ. This is a matter of life and death and that is determined by who we are “in” and nothing else.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.
Christ in you, the hope of glory !
The prophets of the Old Testament gave us a foreshadowing of this as well when God will give us a new heart and a new spirit. This is what Nicodemus should have know being a master of the Law but did not know or understand.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Naz
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February 22, 2016 at 8:54 am
Naz,
Do you know how God made man? Does the Bilbe tell us how God made man? If, so tell me how He did it.
Kevin
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February 23, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Naz,
I asked the question about how God created man because I wanted to point out that no one knows how God did it. He formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. This only explains what God did, not how He did it or could do it. Similarly, God took a rib bone from Adam and built Eve out of Adam’s flesh; therefore, Eve was the bride of Adam, for she was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. This is a type and shadow of the bride of Christ (the second Adam).
If we don’t know how God made Adam and Eve, but only know what God said He did, and so we believe it, then hen how is it that someone today can know that God does not build His bride from the flesh and bone of Christ by baptism with water into Christ (water baptism is not into water, it is into something other than water, IT IS INTO JESUS CHRIST: see Acts 19:3 when asked what they were baptized into, the response was not into water they were they baptized, but into John’s baptism of repentance – see vs.4-5; when they believed Paul, they were baptized INTO CHRIST, with water). So why is it so easy to believe God could create Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve was built from a bone removed from Adam, but not believable that God could create man in His own image through the waters of baptism? Especially since this is exactly what the word of God says.
What I am trying to point out is, God chose to build His Church (bride) through baptism into Jesus Christ (with water) and raise them that are in Christ through His Spirit that He baptizes us with when we believe. We don’t know how God does this, but we must believe He does because His word says so. You make the argument the tub of water does nothing, but do you realize the dust of the earth did nothing either when God made man in the beginning? and do you realize the dust of the earth in which man returns to when he dies, does nothing in the resurrection? So why would you base your belief on what water does or doesn’t do? Instead on what God does? You don’t know how God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and yet you believe He did it. You don’t know how God fashioned Eve out of the rib bone of Adam, yet you believe it. God’s word is clear about this “one must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven” (John 3:5). People go out of their way to claim the water does not refer to baptism, but it’s not true. Even Nicodemus understood the water in vs. 5 was the baptism practiced by John and the disciples of Jesus Christ. What Nicodemus didn’t understand is “how” the baptism of water and spirit would make man born again.
All of the Jews understood the reference to ‘water was baptism, whether is was for ritual purification, conversion of proselytes, John’s baptism into repentance, or the baptism Jesus and His disciples were doing. All Jews understood the relevance and importance of water (Acts 10:43, 48), therefore Nicodemus was not questioning what Jesus meant by “born of water and of spirit”, he just couldn’t see HOW this worked, yet, I am pretty sure Nicodemus believed God made man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life, whereby man became a living soul. And I am pretty sure Nicodemus believed God built Eve from a rib bone He took from Adam, and I am certain, just as Nicodemus didn’t understand HOW God could make man born again from above by baptism of water and spirit, Nicodemus did not know HOW God made Adam and Eve.
One final point I would also make regarding John 3:5. If one contends “spirit” is literal, then one must also accept that “water “ is literal. If Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding these things, (vs. 11) how much more are should Jesus rebuke us now for not understanding HOW we are born again of water and spirit? We have more knowledge available to us than Nicodemus had (we have the OT, the NT and the full gospel story), and Jesus rebuked him for not believing His words because he did not understand “HOW” these things (baptism of water and baptism of spirit) could make one born again.
Naz, I haven’t had time to unpack John 3:1-16, but will do so very soon. However, the above is part of it.
Kevin
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February 23, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Kevin:
It makes perfect sense that one ludicrous statement supporting two other, equally ludicrous statements is in fact still ludicrous. You can slice and dice the prepositions any way you want. The end result is still ludicrity gone wild so any and every ludicrous statement is believable to a believer who has absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about because belief is non knowledge and there’s no getting away from it or getting around it or going through it.
The bible also says that a magic trick is a miracle but magic tricks are merely knowledgable deceits for the magician yet miraculous for the believer who lacks the perception or understanding of the knowledge based deceit. And so of course the Pharaoh told Moses and Aaron to get the heck out of his court after the court magicians did the same “magic trick, debunking the miracle claim of…..hold on, wait for it, claimed to be a miracle by whom, well by the Lord of course. Exodus 7:8 “Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Work a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.'” 10 So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.…
AND THEN 17 Thus says the Lord: “By this you shall know that I am the Lord. Behold, I will strike the waters which are in the river with the rod that is in my hand, and they shall be turned to blood. 18 And the fish that are in the river shall die, the river shall stink, and the Egyptians will loathe to drink the water of the river.”’ ANOTHER MAGIC TRICK
22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them……. 23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house. Neither was his heart moved by this.
Nevertheless believers lack perception and clergy take advantage of their lack to make clergy’s statements not so ludicrous after all and will justify everything with more ludicrous statements. Why do you think Jesus was arrested and crucified. Because the clergy hated him because he testified that their works were evil.
John 7:1 7 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
7 The (religious) world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Jesus himself did not accept the bullish statements the clergy makes about the supernatural nonsense of magic tricks and ludicrous statements but you do Kevin, you do that which Jesus condemned….why?
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February 23, 2016 at 1:07 pm
The answer in all its sheer simplicity is that you do exactly what the clergy has always done try to put Jesus in the religious paradigm and make him fit into the supernaturalcalifragicexpialidocious, you try to lock Jesus into your religious paradigm in the same way clerics tried to lock Jesus into before the crucifixion and after the crucifixion. Jesus would none of it and why it is taking so long for the believers to change the whole world into their paradigm.
There are some 4,300 religions of the world. This is according to Adherents, an independent, non-religiously affiliated organisation that monitors the number and size of the world’s religions.
Side-stepping the issue of what constitutes a religion, Adherents divides religions into churches, denominations, congregations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, and movements. All are of varying size and influence.
Nearly 75 per cent of the world’s population practices one of the five most influential religions of the world: Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism.
And they all claim the same nonsense, they have the answer, they have perfect understanding, they have the true message, they are the true connectors of supernaturalism.
Father Cosmos and Mother Nature and this above all: to thine own inner self be true and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man. Jesus followed that principle by acknowledging the Father within, in his kingdom, in you and in me, as demonstrated by HE.
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February 23, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
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February 23, 2016 at 3:11 pm
The crux of the matter: humanity’s SIN separates us from God.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard [Matthew 22:36-40]. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining [Luke 6:27-36; ]. The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake [Matthew 6:14-15]. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning [John 1:1-5]. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one [John 16:33; 1 John 5:4]. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father [Matthew 18:4]. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him [2 Peter 2:20-22]. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever [John 6:27, 40, 57]. Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One [John 15:26], and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus/Yahshua is the Messiah? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life [John 3:13-16]. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you [2 Peter 2:1-19]. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him [John 14:15-26]. Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:1-29)
The solution to the matter:
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus/Yahshua came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:14-15)
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February 23, 2016 at 10:30 pm
Proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
So what are you trying to say here?
Because the next verse says:
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
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February 24, 2016 at 4:56 am
Leo,
At this point, your doctrine is clear, you don’t believe the Bible is the written word of God, yet you have derived a doctrine from the Bible that you base your belief on nonetheless. For those of us that believe in the one true God and believe the Bible is the written word of the one true God discuss scripture and doctrine based on believing the scriptures are true and inerrant. We cannot do this with you because you don’t believe. This is what I meant by quoting Pro 26:4.
It seems you search the scriptures to find ways to deny them instead of reconciling them. It’s truly ironic that you would respond with Pro 26:5 because your doctrine is you and each person is the “i am” or their own “i am” or something like this . . . You have consistently preached this message of “conceit”, all the while claiming to be wiser than those of us that believe the Bible is written word of God and that God does exist above all and before all and after all.
Leo, I like that you search the scriptures and you seem to have a lot of knowledge of them and there is no doubt that you have a strong interest in them. WHat I don’t know is if you study them to prove everybody wrong that believes and to prove yourself right, or if you look for truth and have a willingness to accept it. It is my prayer and not only my prayer (it’s a prayer of others too), that you find a place to forget about the evil clergy that has existed throughout human history and the damage they’ve done and change your focus by asking God to show you who He really is and give you the wisdom to see Him for who He truly is; I see Him as Jesus Christ.
Kevin
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February 24, 2016 at 7:29 am
Kevin, I’m sorry but I do not agree on your interpretation of the born of water and the connection to Genesis. I don’t think it will be fruitful to debate this at this time. Perhaps you can ask Jason what he thinks of your ideas.
Regards.
Naz
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February 24, 2016 at 8:58 am
Inform your worldview:
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February 24, 2016 at 9:26 am
Naz, the connection is this; the bride of the first Adam was built form the rib bone of Adam. Adam then said, the woman was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Likewise, the bride (the church) of the second Adam will be made of the “bone of His bone and the flesh of His flesh” in the resurrection. We will have glorified bodies of flesh and bone, just like CHrist, that are made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ no longer operated by blood, but operated by Spirit. We don’t know how this works, but we will know when we see Him as He really is because we will be like Him(1 John 3:2). Certainly you can see the type and shadow of this can’t you?
As to the water, you’ve never seen the connection between the baptism of water into Christ and His atoning work of the cross. This is why I will post my comments on John 3:1-15 and you can decide if you agree or not. The previous post was only a partial explanation, but I will give a full detailed explanation as soon as I have time to unpack it. It might be that you have already decided to reject any explanation that water baptism is part of the “new birth”. If so, that’s your decision.
I would like to point out something you haven’t noticed about John 3:1-15; Jesus only addressed Nicodemus’ questions of not understanding three times; vs, 10, 12, 15.
Verse 10, Jesus rebukes him, as a Pharisee, a ruler and teacher of the Jews, for having knowledge of the OT scriptures and the preaching of the gospel by John and Jesus but somehow not understanding one must be born again and HOW one could be born again from above of water and spirit.
Verse 12, Jesus identifies Nicodemus’s not understand HOW these things could be to Nicodemus not believing what Jesus said. Therefore, the rebuke of vs. 10 is a rebuke for not believing; meaning, whether you understand or not that being dunked in water and being baptized with the Holy Spirit as you hear the sound of the Spirit, you must believe what Jesus says.
Vs. 15, Finally and for the third time, Jesus responds with the clearest possible answer to “how can these things be”? Jesus answer was simple, straightforward, and succinct; believe what I said, that is HOW these things can be! We know the water refers to the baptism of the disciples of Jesus and the spirit refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit of the disciples of Jesus. They are irrevocably linked in John 3:5 and they are irrevocably linked throughout the scriptures.
Meanwhile, I am awaiting a reply form Jason from my previous post in response to his question about Gen 1:31.
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February 24, 2016 at 10:52 am
Kevin, I understand that we will have new bodies in the resurrection like Jesus’ body. Sure I can see a shadow that points to Adam and Eve but I’m really only interested in the reality which is Christ and not the shadow.
As to water baptism, you are correct, I will not accept any explanation that water baptism is part of the new birth since I do not agree with you on many levels. But again, I don’t want to start this up again with you, sorry.
Naz
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February 24, 2016 at 11:24 am
Journey to the core of your WORLDVIEW:
Luke 6:48
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February 24, 2016 at 12:04 pm
Naz,
OK.
Kevin
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February 24, 2016 at 1:53 pm
I study the bible to prove all things by knowledge for only by knowledge can you be set free; you study the bible to prove all belief because you are already there, you don’t need knowledge to prove belief you just need more belief and that is what you look for.
To me the bible consists of dung and diamonds and discernment is crucial to understanding but if you can’t understand the difference between what is possible and what is impossible, supernatural paranormal and natural normality, you are at a distinct disadvantage and will not look for reasonable ways to explain unexplainable events that happen you simply believe them to be true and you don’t have to lift one brain cell to think things through; it’s all laid out for you neatly in church dogma and rituals and what you takeaway from the bible is what you have been told by others that perpetuate the supernatural hoaxes of religion.
It’s like the witch doctor from Africa I encountered last week who claimed that he has special powers for healing all manner of afflictions. Well how does he do it? Simple he uses pineapples and lemons and that’s all he needs to cure anything. I told him that that magic might work in Africa but in Western countries people are educated and when they are afflicted they don’t go to witch doctors practicing voodooism, they go to the medical doctor who can prescribe antibiotics and other medicines for afflictions and infections. Now deep down the guy knows he’s a charlatan but if he can convince believers of his powers then he can get money from exerting influence on believers.
It’s rampant in society, palmistry, psychic, astrology, in hollywood and in every Television commercial, it’s all make believe and made up stuff; it’s a business which Jesus called the religionists out and exposed them for in his famous indictment of Matt 23.
And those things were going on in Jesus day when people played the role of cripples to beg for money, some of those people practicing the cripple deceit were called out then as well and when threatened with exposure they jumped up and claimed a miracle healing, those accounts are in the bible but you can’t imagine the trickery so you believe actual miracle took place. Turning water into wine happens every day, it’s called fermentation but in the bible it’s called a miracle. Feeding the thousands everyday is pitifully obvious at the fast food chains with on site warehouses but in the bible it is called a miracle. But when the military fed their thousand man army it wasn’t called a miracle, it was normal.
Miracles are simply natural events by people who want to believe in miracles. But you don’t really suppose that the cloud the exodus followed by day and the pillar of light at night so they could travel 24/7 were actually miracles do you? Well of course not unless you can’t think for yourself what really happened…I study with single focus mind to search out the truth so I have knowledge and then I am set free by the truth of that knowledge.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
The truth will set you free because in Jesus there was knowledge by truth not deceit by lies, When Jesus said something you could take it to the bank; when the clerics said something you would be taken to the cleaners.
Jesus could build a cache for food, ferment water and turn it to wine before it was needed; he could plan and execute the plan in due time when all avenues seemed closed to others, hope seemed lost, Jesus would fix the ailment, bandage the wound, cleanse the sore and care for the sick and the needy, open the eyes of the downtrodden, downtrodden through fear and phoney messages about the paranormal from the religionists out to get whatever they could get while the getting was good and shunned the disabled and let them swelter in their own sweat before lifting a finger to help them out of their misery. Did he preach about the supernatural and ritualism to the hungry and tell them their hunger was due to their sinning all the time? NO! He gave them food! Jesus was a man, a real man doing his part to break through a humanity imbedded with falsehoods from birth through death for thousands and thousands of years; if only, if only you could recognize Jesus the real man who used his humanity to love and be kind and caring and comforting to those who knew none of it…yeah…that was GOD working through the man not some paranormal fanatical street preacher looking for accolades and pats on the back. A real Man who could make the claim that his Father, the God within, that made him the Son of the Father and The Father of the Son because he reflected his natural birthright humanity by showing it to others.
And why don’t some of you see him that way? Because you’ve been duped by the same insanity that drives the world into fanaticism trying to blow up as many of their fellowman as possible because they are doing the will of the supernatural myths they claim to follow. Caca del Toro bullish talking. And all you do is niggle over prepositions and baptism and doctrines of nonsense when in point of fact no sacraments, sacrifices or offerings or ritualisms ever mattered one bit to Jesus. And you think I do not know HIM and you DO? That’s lolable goat talk.
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February 24, 2016 at 2:24 pm
Concerning Salvation in Messiah:
http://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-studies/topical-bible-studies-/is-baptism-required-for-salvation-2/
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/DeadCannotBelieve.htm
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February 25, 2016 at 6:24 am
Frank, thanks for the links.
Naz
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February 25, 2016 at 10:31 am
Sin kills. MESSIAH SAVES!
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
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February 26, 2016 at 10:28 am
The King’s Authority Challenged
1. By the Priests and Elders
Section 143
Matthew 21:23-22:14; Mark 11:27-12:12; Luke 20:1-19
* As Christ returned to the temple courts the next morning, He was met by chief priests and elders who questioned Him concerning the authority by which He had been doing these things. The things referred to must have been the messianic acts that He had done the previous day and that brought widespread recognition of His person. Christ refused to answer the question concerning His authority until they answered the question concerning John’s authority. It was obvious that the authority of Christ and John was identical. So He asked them to commit themselves on the question of John’s authority. This led to a discussion among themselves, and they quite obviously realized that they had been trapped. If they replied that John received his authority from heaven, they would be asked why they had not submitted to John’s message and brought forth THE FRUITS OF REPENTANCE HE DEMANDED (emphasis added). They should then have received the King whom he introduced. If on the other hand they denied the divine authority behind John’s ministry, they would jeopardize their influence with the people, for the people acknowledged John to be a prophet from God. Thus on the one hand they would declare themselves worthy of judgment because they had rejected God’s message; or on the other hand they would be repudiated by those over whom they exerted their influence. Thus they replied that they did not know (Mark 11:33). If they were unable to determine the authority behind John, they would be unable to determine the authority behind Christ even though He demonstrated that authority to them. Consequently He refused to answer (v. 34). His silence did not deny that His authority had come from God. Rather, He was withholding any further evidence from these leaders, THOUGH IN VIEW OF THEIR REJECTION THEY WOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE (emphasis added).
Christ now proceeded through three parables to teach these leaders truths concerning the kingdom program. The first of these was the parable of the two sons (Matt. 21:28-32). The background of this parable was the claim of the Pharisees that they were sons of the kingdom by virtue of their descent from Abraham. But Christ taught THAT SONSHIP MUST BE TESTED BY OBEDIENCE AND ONLY THE OBEDIENT ARE SONS (emphasis added). A father commanded one of his two sons to go and work in the vineyard. At first this son said, “I will not,” but “later he changed his mind and went” (v. 29). The father gave a similar command to a second son, who answered, “I will, sir,” but he did not go (v. 30). Christ then asked, “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” (v. 31). “The first” was the obvious answer. The implication of this parable was that obedience, NOT MERE PROFESSION (emphasis added), proves true sonship. The initial word of the first son seemed to deny sonship, but his later actions demonstrated true sonship. The initial word of the second son seemed to prove sonship, but his later disobedience disproved his word. In applying the parable to the chief priests and elders, the Lord said, “The tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.” By their spoken word Israel’s leaders professed to be sons, but by their disobedience to the Father’s word they proved they were not sons. When John had come appealing to them for repentance, they had professed to repent BUT HAD NOT, FOR THEY HAD NOT PRODUCED FRUITS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (emphasis added). Tax collectors and others of similar character WERE CHANGED AND BROUGHT FORTH FRUITS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (emphasis added cf. Luke 5:27-29; 7:36-50). Christ demonstrated that He was willing to accept sinners, but the leaders would not admit that they were sinners; and they therefore refused to come to Him for salvation. Thus in this parable Christ had shown that those who claimed to be sons of the kingdom were not sons; THEIR DISOBEDIENCE TO HIS WORD REVEALED THAT FACT (emphasis added).
In the second parable, that of the householder (Matt. 21:33-46), Christ showed the consequence of the nation’s rejection of Him as Messiah.
Christ described the judgment on that generation: “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed” (Matt. 21:43-44). There were to be two parts to this judgment. First, the offer of the kingdom would be withdrawn from that generation: “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you.” Second, the kingdom would be “given to a people who would produce its fruit.” This may be understood in two ways. The “people” may refer to a future generation in Israel to whom the message, “The kingdom of heaven is near,” will again be preached (cf. 24:14). This would anticipate a future offer of the kingdom to another generation in Israel. An alternate interpretation would be to understand “the people” as a reference to Gentiles. In keeping with the program revealed in the parables of Matthew 13 in the interadvent period, a new form of the kingdom would be developed through the Gentile nations. In either case Christ did not announce a judgment terminating Israel’s hope, but He did announce a postponement of the realization of that hope until some future day.
Picturing Himself as the smiting stone of Daniel 2, Christ said that those who come to Him will be broken (unto repentance) but those who resist Him will be crushed in the judgment that He as the smiting stone will inflict (Matt. 21:44). As they listened to these parables, the chief priests and Pharisees understood clearly that Christ was pronouncing judgment on them (v. 45). And in order to avert the impending judgment, they looked for a way to arrest Him (v. 46). But they were afraid to proceed openly because the people believed that Jesus was “a prophet” from God.
The third parable concerned a wedding banquet (Matt. 22:1-14).
Christ, in this parable, showed that the nation had been prepared beforehand for the kingdom that He had offered. They had been told that the kingdom was near. They had refused the King’s invitation to enter His kingdom and consequently were excluded. CHRIST ALSO TAUGHT THAT RIGID REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET FOR ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM AND ONLY THOSE WHO MET THOSE REQUIREMENTS WOULD BE ACCEPTED (emphasis added). Thus the Pharisees who refused to enter the kingdom could not expect to be received into the kingdom, FOR THEY HAD NOT PREPARED THEMSELVES ACCORDING TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE KING (emphasis added). These parables as a unit revealed that those who follow Pharisaism were not sons of the kingdom. The privilege of entering the kingdom that had been offered to them would soon be withdrawn. Those who had been invited and refused to come would not be admitted when the kingdom was established. UNLESS (emphasis added) they provided THEMSELVES (emphasis added) with a righteousness that met the King’s demands, they would not be allowed to enter His kingdom. *
* The Words & Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
pp. 382 – 386
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February 26, 2016 at 12:41 pm
“CHRIST ALSO TAUGHT THAT RIGID REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET FOR ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM AND ONLY THOSE WHO MET THOSE REQUIREMENTS WOULD BE ACCEPTED”
Frank, can you summarize for the reading audience what you think those “requirements” are in a non-parable form ?
Naz
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February 26, 2016 at 3:39 pm
Frank, Jesus did not ask the Pharisees about John’s authority. Jesus specifically asked about John’s baptism; was it from heaven? The Pharisees understood had they believed it was from heaven, they would have repented and been baptized by John just like every disciple of John had done. Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, beginning of the preaching of John, required a baptism of repentance.
Why would you alter or disguise the message to reflect something other than what was literally said and literally questioned by Jesus?
The other question I have regards the parable of the marriage feast. There was a man that accepted the invitation of the gospel, but was not properly attired with the proper clothes for the wedding feast, thus he was cast into hell. My question is, if he accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ (the invitation of the parable), then why was he rejected by God (the King in the parable) for not being properly attired when he attended the marriage feast. What is the proper clothing one must where when they accept the gospel invitation and where does one get this clothing?
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February 26, 2016 at 3:43 pm
FRanks,
FYI: I am not looking for an answer on the historical aspects of the wedding feasts in the near east at that time. I know they typically lasted a week and one would wear clean clothes. I’m looking for the significance of how one could accept the gospel, yet not be saved because he wasn’t properly clothed.
Thanks in advance,
Kevin
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February 26, 2016 at 6:15 pm
Naz,
Regarding Matthew 22:1-14.
* The third and last act of the parabolic drama impressed the conditions which must be met by the wedding guests, whether Gentiles or Jews. They must be clothed in the wedding garment of a righteous character and holy life. Rejection of the stipulated wedding garment indicated disregard and disloyalty toward the giver of the feast. The Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character. One who does not have character in harmony with that of the King must inevitably be cast out into outer darkness, where there will be the wailing of anguish and the grinding of teeth in defiance and bitterness toward God. *
The “requirements” are laid out by Messiah in Matthew 5-7. His standard is: “Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
http://jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm
Examine the interchange here:
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/DeadCannotBelieve.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/judges1.htm
* The Words & Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
p. 386.
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February 26, 2016 at 6:27 pm
Naz,
Messiah’s “requirements” are laid out in Matthew chapters 5 through 7. His standard is: “Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
http://jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm
Examine this interchange: http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/DeadCannotBelieve.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/judges1.htm
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February 26, 2016 at 7:11 pm
Kevin:
Of course the Pharisees questioned Jesus authority and in his response Jesus also alluded to the authority of John by using the campaign of John’s baptism and from where it came; that is from where and by what authority did it come. Frank did not alter or disguise the message; you are the one altering literal words by failing to see the metaphorical, the symbolism or deliberately omitting the symbolism to prove your literal understanding.
It is the same with your question about the marriage Feast attire; this too is metaphorical. I am sure you want to use it to try and prove your erroneous belief that one needs water baptism but that would just be taking the literal to a level it not meant to be communicated..
For example you can find the symbolism for those being sealed for the Kingdom of Heaven in Revelation: The number 144,000 is one of those symbolic numbers. It does NOT mean that there will be only 144,000 people taken to heaven. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christian men and women from Pentecost of 33 CE until the present day will be resurrected to heaven as immortal spirit beings to spend eternity with God and Christ but that is “literal” run amuck.
In Revelation, John (the author of Revelation) uses a similar kind of SYMBOLIC or FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE to portray God saying something like this: This is how many are sealed for the Kingdom.
John 1:12 ” ‘AS MANY AS’ received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (spirit)
Roman’s 8:14 ” ‘AS MANY AS’ are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
THE Spiritual Cloak is the marriage feast attire in the parable you reference. Jesus also mentioned this tidbit of tactical theology when he said:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Build on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
It’s the baptism of the spirit Kevin, the spirit that water baptism is a metaphor for, symbolic of…………..
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February 26, 2016 at 8:32 pm
Naz,
I refer you to Jason’s post dated January 3, 2016: Is an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent God Incoherent? in which you’ll find my post # 154, dated January 19, 2016 at 4:11 pm.
– Frank
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February 26, 2016 at 9:43 pm
Kevin,
As Pentecost writes and Revelator tactfully points out: the issue at hand in this particular portion of Scripture is one of the origin of Messiah’s authority. I urge you to re-read the first paragraph for clarity.
Concerning your confusion about the parable of the wedding banquet I’ll provide you the following: * The third and last act of the parabolic drama impressed the conditions which must be met by the wedding guests, whether Gentiles or Jews. They must be clothed in the wedding garment of a righteous character and holy life. Rejection of the stipulated wedding garment indicated disregard and disloyalty toward the giver of the feast. The Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character. One who does not have character in harmony with that of the King must inevitably be cast out into outer darkness, where there will be the wailing of anguish and the grinding of teeth in defiance and bitterness toward God. *
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12)
And Messiah’s standard for holiness is: “Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
* The Words & Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
p. 386.
– Frank
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February 26, 2016 at 11:04 pm
Teaching concerning Mikveh begins at 34:11.
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February 27, 2016 at 5:46 am
Frank,
It’s understood the issue of the origin of Jesus’ authority was questioned by the Pharisees, and it’s also understood John’s authority was from the same origin. This is not in question. The question is related to the absence of the question Jesus literally asked. Jesus did not allude to John’s encounter with the Pharisees in which John told them to bear fruits of repentance; He directed His question to the gospel John preached, which was a baptism of repentance. Repentance and bearing fruit of repentance was not a new message for the Jews, but the baptism of repentance was entirely new. The Pharisees rejected the message of John because they did not believe, therefore they were not baptized by John. The message the Pharisees rejected was baptism of repentance, not the message to bear fruit of repentance. Therefore, the real message of baptism seems to be hidden within your post.
Leo pointed out that water baptism is a metaphor for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is not taught as a metaphor of the baptism of the Holy Spirit anywhere in the scriptures. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection and it is also a confession of one’s faith, but it’s not only symbolic and it’s purpose is not to publicly confess one’s faith in Christ because we are, in all reality, united with Christ through the waters of baptism in His name (Rom 6:1-10, Gal 3:27); not just symbolically, but actually through the working of God (Col 2:12). The difference in baptism with water in His name and the baptism of the Holy Spirit is this: with water, in the name of Jesus Christ, we are baptized into Christ and united with Him in His physical death, burial, and resurrection, with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is baptized into us (Col 1:26-27, 1 Peter 1:11) and His Spirit will raise us from the dead in the resurrection. We are made complete in Him through the baptism with water in His name and the baptism of the His Holy Spirit into us (Col 2:10); this is, completely and entirely, a work of God (Col 2:12) and it’s the new birth experience Jesus alluded to in John 3:1-15; not just baptism of the Spirit, but also baptism of the flesh; one experience, complete in Christ by the work of God!
Frank, to the question about the marriage feast, you did not fully address my question. Understanding the invitation is the gospel message, the question is, if we are saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ means to believe and accept Jesus was crucified for the forgiveness of our sins, buried, and raised again on the third day, then the man that attended had to be a believer of first importance because he accepted the invitation (the gospel) and came to the feast. To be thrown out would be impossible if he accepted the gospel (the invitation) in its entirety. Apparently, this man did not accept the gospel in its entirety. Something was missing and it was identified as “wedding clothes”. You answered that a man must clothe himself with moral character which places the work of man into the picture as part of the gospel. This, we know, cannot be true because man cannot clothe himself with the righteousness of Christ through his own works. Many atheists have high moral character but it doesn’t clothe them with the wedding clothes of Christ does it? Even if they do not believe the gospel (accept the invitation), their high or good moral character does not clothe them with the wedding clothes of Christ, therefore your explanation falls short of the truth in the message. Christ, not a work of man, imparts righteousness. (Eph 2:9), I am not trying to offend you, but you left out much of the parable story in your post and to give an answer that puts the job of clothing yourself with your own moral character makes one righteous before God is directly against the teaching of scripture. I encourage you to reconsider your answer and find another because it just cannot be correct.
So, my questions remain unanswered. The man accepted the gospel of first importance but somehow he didn’t clothe himself with the wedding clothes. My question is, if he accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ (the invitation of the parable), then why was he rejected by God (the King in the parable) for not being properly attired when he attended the marriage feast. What is the proper clothing one must where when they accept the gospel invitation and where does one get this clothing? Your answer amounts to; man clothes himself with his own moral character and man, alone provides the wedding clothes fit for the marriage feast (The “wedding feast” is the messianic banquet that will take place on earth at the beginning of the kingdom. The bridegroom is the Messiah).
Leo also made the comment that I would try to use the scripture to prove being clothed with Christ through water baptism, but apparently, he as well as Naz have already rejected all scriptures and commands, to be baptized into Christ according to the scriptures, as metaphors of no real effect. Therefore, I seek an honest answer to my questions. If we are not clothed with Christ through baptism of water and Spirit as I believe the scriptures teach, then how is one not clothed with the wedding clothes of Christ. Even if one believes baptism of water is a metaphor for the baptism of the Spirit and one receives the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel of first importance (1 Cor 15:3) as our friend Naz has contended, how is it possible for this man to not be clothed with the wedding clothes of the bride of Christ?
The parable of the wedding feast makes it clear that the man believed the gospel of first importance or he could not have attended the wedding, yet was not clothed in the righteousness of Christ. This indicates something is wrong with the aforementioned doctrine of believing the gospel of first importance as the only thing one must believe to be saved.
What say you?
Kevin
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February 27, 2016 at 5:48 am
Of second importance is to clothe yourself with Christ (Gal 3:27)
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February 27, 2016 at 8:33 am
Kevin:
SATURDAY’S SERMON FOR SIMPLE SAINTS:
You use the Gospel as a metaphor for the “Invitation” to the wedding but that is not accurate because you wander off and point out that believing the Gospel is not sufficient to “be saved” just as believing the invitation is not enough to be welcomed to the marriage. So the man believed the invitation and went to the wedding accordingly but did not know the protocol of the ceremony and was rejected. You substitute the Invitation for the Gospel but there’s a vast difference, because the Invitation is not the protocol and more likely than not, the invitation would not have mentioned the protocol of the Wedding Feast; the Gospel on the other hand does tell you the protocol and that is: ” I give myself to you in spiritual regeneration to re-invade your humanity in the person of my other self, the Holy Ghost to credit you with my divine presence so that by virtue of who I am, living where I do, in your heart as a redeemed sinner I can impart to you all the divine dynamic of my indwelling and give you what it takes.
Now that’s the gospel; that’s the protocol; that’s the cloak of the Wedding Feast YOU need to be wearing but water baptism is not gospel, water baptism may be one aspect to it for some people and one does not denigrate those who take that position but it isn’t the only belief one needs (example: the same analogy was given about eating meat by some and not eating meat by others so don’t make those not eating meat to stumble but shoving your belief about eating meat down his throat) this was the case and reasoning that Jesus conversed with John: Remember the passage?: Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.… In other words there were many believers who believed water baptism was the righteous way so Jesus did not want to deny them to view his baptism matter that could have made them stumble if John rejected Jesus. To some people it is more important to get their point across regardless of what others believe and cause a raucus of negativity to occur for the sake of their niggling over small matters. If you believe you need water baptism to enter heaven then go to those pearly gates soaking wet; when you get there you won’t be cast out because of that belief anymore than he who shows up in dry garments….as many as are led by the spirit, wet or dry, both can go in!
Don’t please imagine that the gospel is simply come to Jesus and have your sins forgiven; that isn’t the gospel. You will only have your sins forgiven if you are prepared for the guilty sinner that you are, come to the Lord Jesus and accept him into your life for the savior he came to be but THAT IS NOT GOSPEL. That simply lets you off the hook; that simply changes your destination; that simply trades hell for heaven but Jesus Christ didn’t come into this world simply to get you and me out of hell and into heaven; he came into this world supremely to God out of heaven in to you and to me.
I know that the teaching of scriptures say that works don’t count but I submit, just because the teaching of scripture teaches that does not make the teaching accurate, the teaching is the interpretation of the teacher’s understanding and I know how wrong teaching the scriptures can be by the writers of the New testament in Acts. You too, also know how wrong the teaching can be as we see here with the back and forth about water baptism and spirit baptism and what being clothed means and different understanding yield different interpretations.
For example as to “works”, recall what Jesus said to the Pharisees when they said Go on now tell us plainly if you are the Christ and Jesus replied:
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Jesus himself differs with the teaching of the scriptures that “works” don’t matter. The works manifested through Jesus does matter a great deal because Jesus said if you do not believe me, believe the “works”. So it seems to me that the works really do matter as a witness to the Father in you and you in the Father, as it was the Father in Jesus and Jesus in the Father.
Jesus also used the same witness of the Father within when he responded to this scripture in Deut 19:15: “One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”. being the Jewish Law.
John 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish– the very works that I do– testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37″And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38″You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
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February 27, 2016 at 8:50 am
Practical implications derived from how our worldview directs hermeneutics:
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February 27, 2016 at 10:19 am
Kevin,
The complete Scripture of the Wedding Banquet parable is found in Matthew 22:1-14 which I stated in my post # 51. Your hermeneutics are characterized by erroneous assumptions. I urge you to carefully re-read this parable paying special attention to verses 8 through 14. Matt. 22:8-14 doesn’t say the individual in question accepted an invitation. It does say in v. 10, “Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.” Some would be worthy of the King (the good) and partake in the feast while others would be found not worthy by the King (the evil) and ejected from the feast. That individual’s righteousness as evinced by his garments/clothes proved unworthy to the King (read the post I reference in my response to Naz [post # 56] concerning the King’s terms for righteousness) so he was ejected.
I also refer you to the following for a better understanding of the issues in contention:
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/salvation/salvation.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/DeadCannotBelieve.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/faithandworks.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/waterbaptism.htm
– Frank
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February 27, 2016 at 10:25 am
Kevin,
I just tried sending you a reply but the website failed to put it through. Maybe Jason has some way of retrieving it to post it or at least report this to those IT people responsible for maintaining his site. Something’s up because this has happened to me twice in the last two days.
– Frank
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February 28, 2016 at 7:23 am
Frank,
Firstly, thank you for your response. At your urging, I read the parable as it is told in Matt 22. Below is the section you asked me to pay close attention to: Matt 22:8-14.
For the sake of clarity, your comments of Post #65 and #56 will follow these verses and my response to your comments will follow yours in response to your claims.
8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Quote (Post #65):
The complete Scripture of the Wedding Banquet parable is found in Matthew 22:1-14 which I stated in my post # 51. Your hermeneutics are characterized by erroneous assumptions. I urge you to carefully re-read this parable paying special attention to verses 8 through 14. Matt. 22:8-14 doesn’t say the individual in question accepted an invitation. It does say in v. 10, “Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.” Some would be worthy of the King (the good) and partake in the feast while others would be found not worthy by the King (the evil) and ejected from the feast. That individual’s righteousness as evinced by his garments/clothes proved unworthy to the King (read the post I reference in my response to Naz [post # 56] concerning the King’s terms for righteousness) so he was ejected. End Quote
Quote (Post #56):
Messiah’s “requirements” are laid out in Matthew chapters 5 through 7. His standard is: “Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) End Quote
Frank,
You contend I’ve made more than one erroneous assumption as you outlined the following:
1) You contend the individual in question didn’t accept an invitation, alluding to vs. 10 that he was gathered up by the Kings’ servants with good and evil people.
2) Further claiming the King expecting this, pre-planned to select who would be found worthy and stay at the feast and who would be found unworthy and ejected.
3) According to your Post #56, the garments required are to be perfect as God is perfect.
Response to Point #1
The invitation is the gospel. One would not have attended unless one accepted (believed) the invitation (the Gospel). Unless, as you contend, The “Godfather” and not “God the Father” sent his servants out with an invitation they could not refuse. We know the King is God the Father and not the mafia leader called the Godfather”, therefore the scripture is as I stated, the King sent out his servants to “INVITE” and gather up all who were invited (understanding they accepted the invitation (the gospel). Reading carefully at your urging, here is verse. 8: (8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy). What happened with those invited guests? (see vs. 1-7). They did not come because they were not worthy. They were not rounded up and forced to come as you propose, so they could be found unworthy to be there. They were destroyed because they were not worthy to attend. According to your doctrine, these too would have been rounded up and brought to the feast and found unworthy. Do you see the flaw in your doctrine? One must be found worthy (believe the gospel) to attend. This is in opposition to your claim. Reading carefully vs. 9-10 (9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests). Does it say they were invited or simply found and gathered up as you proposed?
Continuing with vs. 11-12 –
Response to Point #2
(11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless). You claim they evil were brought to be found unworthy, right? Why then, is the King surprised to find the man somehow was allowed into the dinner room? The King saw and asked “Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?” If the man was gathered up according to your theology, this questioned should not have been asked, for the King would know that the man was brought against his will (as you said and alluded, both good and evil were gathered up, regardless of invitation). If you are correct, then why is the man speechless? He would have been able to give the answer you have given “I was gathered up and brought here King”.
Response to Point #3
We agree here, but you gave no explanation how a man can be perfect as God is perfect. We are made perfect in CHrist Jesus. So, I would support your use of scripture with these scriptures:
Col 2:9-15 – . 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Heb 5:9 – And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
What say you Frank? Is the parable of the wedding feast about bringing to final judgment of the good and evil people as you seem to have proposed or is it about accepting the gospel in it’s entirety, from first importance to last importance?
We have been invited and some of us will not accept the entire gospel as being important and on that day of the marriage feast, those of us that rejected the parts of the gospel, for humanly logical reasons we could not understand, will find themselves unworthy in unbelief, being found without the wedding clothes of Christ provided by the gospel of the King.
Kevin
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February 28, 2016 at 9:16 am
Frank, you are correct, we must be perfect as God is perfect. Therefore our righteousness must by Christ’s righteousness and not our own character and holy living. Do you agree ?
Naz
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February 28, 2016 at 9:22 am
Leo, your post 57 is very good. Did you cross over to the other side ?
Cheers !
Naz
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February 28, 2016 at 9:41 am
“Leo also made the comment that I would try to use the scripture to prove being clothed with Christ through water baptism, but apparently, he as well as Naz have already rejected all scriptures and commands, to be baptized into Christ according to the scriptures, as metaphors of no real effect. Therefore, I seek an honest answer to my questions. If we are not clothed with Christ through baptism of water and Spirit as I believe the scriptures teach, then how is one not clothed with the wedding clothes of Christ. Even if one believes baptism of water is a metaphor for the baptism of the Spirit and one receives the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel of first importance (1 Cor 15:3) as our friend Naz has contended, how is it possible for this man to not be clothed with the wedding clothes of the bride of Christ? ”
Kevin, very nice, now you’re speaking evil behind my back…..lumping me in with unbelievers !
This is a parable being used as an analogy. All this shows is that a person not clothed with Christ cannot enter the weeding feast. God is calling everyone to repentance but not all will come to Christ, some will try another way, another belief or philosophy, and they will not be allowed in.
Ironically Leo, an unbeliever, understands this parable sufficiently.
Naz
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February 28, 2016 at 2:32 pm
Naz:
I haven’t crossed over, I’ve always been there but you just didn’t see the solitary tree, only the broad forest.
Ironic perhaps but while Leo is actually an unbeliever in the supernatural God of man, he is a believer in the words of Jesus and therefore in turn and in due season, through perfect interpretation, give to each man according to as he deserves and that does not ban you Naz, or Frank either or anyone else from righteous praise and confirmation, when it is well deserved, when you accurately interpret Jesus.
You see, I love those I correct and chastise because I care for all humanity; this is no less than what any of you would do for your own children; when your children do wrong you chastise and when they do right you praise; in the same way that the works of children are not lopsided with only wrong and only right; it is not right either that only chastisement or only praise be given with a lopsided brush.
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February 28, 2016 at 3:36 pm
Kevin,
Here’s how I understand the wedding banquet parable:
* The parable of the marriage feast set forth the contempt of Israel for God’s great Kingdom feast (Matt. 22:1-14). This contempt was shown by the refusal to come, on the part of some, and the utter disregard for the conditions of entrance, on the part of others, illustrated in the case of one who came without the wedding garment. In each case, the judgment on those who despised the gracious feast is set forth strongly. The parable is a drama in three acts. The Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a marriage feast made by the King for his son. It lasted several days. Two invitations were customary; one several days before the feast, to prevent the intended guests from making other engagements; the second a few hours before the initiation of the feast, that the guests might be present promptly on the hour.
In the first act of the parabolic drama, the King sent out his slaves to call those who had sometime before received the first invitation. But they were not minded to come. But the King was anxious that they should come, and again sent out other slaves with a more urgent call, recommending his feast by descriptive touches in detail: “See,” he said, “my dinner is complete; my oxen and wheat-fattened calves have been killed, and all is ready. Come hither to the festivities.” But the invited–not caring for the feast–made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business, while the rest laid hold on the slaves, ill-treated them, and then killed them. This made the King angry, and he sent his troops and put those murderers to death and burned their city.
This first bidding to the feast was given to the Jews by the prophets of the Old Testament dispensation. They foretold the Messianic feast of exceeding great and precious promise, peace, and full salvation in the Messiah. But the Jews would not come to the feast. Later, God sent other servants in His chosen apostles and His own Son. They brought a more urgent and explicit invitation. They were more aggressive in their manner and preached a complete gospel. But the result of their preaching was no better than that of their predecessors. Those who were invited became antagonistic to the point of violence, seized upon the servants of the King, maltreated them, and killed them. The apostles were bitterly persecuted, later, even unto death. The parable describes in a most graphic manner the punishment which the pretended but unworthy guests would meet at the hands of an angry God. Jerusalem was to suffer a complete demolition, a century later, at the hands of imperial Rome.
In the second act of the parabolic drama, we hear the King commanding his slaves: “The wedding-banquet is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy. Go out therefore into the parting of the highways, and, as many as you shall find, bid them to the feast.” And those servants went out and gathered all that they found, both good and bad, and the wedding feast was filled with guests.
To the Jewish leaders present, as to some of the people, it must have been apparent that Jesus meant in this second part of the parable that the Gentiles were to be brought into the Kingdom feast. This was a true prophecy of what happened soon. The ministry of the apostles being rejected by the Jews, they turned to the Gentiles, many of whom gladly heard and accepted the invitation to the gospel feast.
The third and last act of the parabolic drama impressed the conditions which must be met by the wedding guests, whether Gentiles or Jews. They must be clothed in the wedding garment of a righteous character and holy life. Rejection of the stipulated wedding garment indicated disregard and disloyalty toward the giver of the feast. The Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character. One who does not have character in harmony with that of the King must inevitably be cast out into outer darkness, where there will be the wailing of anguish and the grinding of teeth in defiance and bitterness toward God. *
* Shepard, The Christ, pp. 495-497.
I understand the term “bid” to mean: hold out (something) to someone for acceptance. You speak of “invite”; i.e., make a polite, formal or friendly request to (someone) to go somewhere or to do something. There is, in fact, no where mentioned in the wedding banquet parable that the individual referenced in Matthew 22:11 accepted any invite. The point here isn’t your acceptance of an invitation, it’s do you meet the conditions to even attend in the first place. Remember, the Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character in harmony with the King. As we see, when he’s questioned considerately by the King in v. 12 this man is “speechless”; i.e., offers no explanation or asks any remedy for his action to the King. The King having provided him an opportunity to account for his disloyalty & disregard evidenced by his lack of wedding clothes/righteousness then judged him evil & unrepentant thus not worthy; so ordering him ejected from the feast into outer darkness. The issue here is: are we holy (set apart) that we may be found worthy to stand in the presence of Holy God?
Now you might draw all the suppositions you so desire. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31)
Regarding how I see righteousness, kindly read my post # 154, dated January 19, 2016 at 4:11 pm in Jason’s post titled, “Is an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent God Incoherent?”, dated January 3, 2016.
– Frank
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February 28, 2016 at 4:44 pm
Naz,
* Christ summarized the demands of the Mosaic law under two precepts. The first was an all inclusive precept that governed their (Pharisees) responsibility toward God. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Matt. 22:37). The second precept was all-inclusive of their responsibility to man, “Love your neighbor as yourself” (v. 39). Paul affirmed the wisdom of this summary, saying, “Love is the fulfillment of the law” (Rom. 13:10). Christ thus revealed His insight into the nature and requirements of the law, as well as throwing light on how to fulfill the law. Christ’s answer struck a responsive chord in the heart of the learned Pharisee who had approached Him. This man endorsed Christ’s interpretation of the requirements of the law (Mark 12:32). And the man noted that Christ’s answer was based on what the Old Testament itself demanded (1 Sam. 15:22). When Jesus observed that His questioner consented to the truth that He had stated, He announced, “You are not far from the kingdom of God” (Mark 12:34). The one who so properly understood the requirements of the law must have realized that no person could fulfill those requirements. Surely that one would consequently come to Christ to receive the salvation that He offered. *
* The Words & Works of Jesus Christ by J. Dwight Pentecost
Section 146, pp. 390-391
Truly when we live our lives with the Beatitude Attitude (Matthew 5:1-12) we are not far from the kingdom of God. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” (Matthew 6:33)
– Frank
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February 28, 2016 at 9:28 pm
Frank, I may be wrong but chronologically I am not sure that the marriage feast parable is talking about the gentiles during the second invitation and if it is it would be a turnabout from Jesus’ earlier statements about leaving the gentiles aside until the children have first been fed the Gospel. The reason being that earlier Jesus said: (Matthew 7:6). “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” In other words, it seems mJesus is saying, do not persist in offering what is sacred or of value to those who have no appreciation for it, because your gift will not only become contaminated and be despised, your generous efforts could also be rebuffed and perhaps even openly attacked.”
And then again later in Matthew 15: 25-27 Jesus ignored the Canaanite woman basically saying the same thing when she asked for his help: 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”…
The parable of Matt 22:2 then seems to reverse his earlier two instructions against giving the “gospel” to the outsiders, the gentiles as it were.
I would think that the episode of the Canaanite woman answering Jesus in a way that was true but humiliating to Jesus by saying that even the dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall from the master’s table may have inspired him to change his stance. I submit that the logic of the woman was so compelling, it may have been the turning point that led Jesus to offer the parable of the Marriage feast but changing the end result in the second invitation to include the gentiles, such as the Canaanite woman, with whom Jews by tradition were forbidden to communicate, the Canaanites being regarded as heathen. And her witty reply to Jesus indicates a degree of understanding which puts the Pharisees and the scribes from Jerusalem to shame.
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February 28, 2016 at 10:09 pm
Leo,
There are several instances of Jesus/Yahshua ministering & evangelizing to Gentiles. Remember, the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. Or the centurion in Matthew 8. Or when Messiah speaks of Himself as the Good Shepard and says, “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; . . . ” (John 10:16).
Check out this link:
Click to access 33-2-pp161-169_JETS.pdf
In the wedding banquet parable it’s spoken of prophetically. And soon into the ministries of the Apostles Peter and Paul they brought the Gospel message to Gentiles.
– Frank
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February 28, 2016 at 10:12 pm
I meant to write Good Shepherd.
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February 29, 2016 at 6:51 am
Leo,
I refer you to these teachings concerning the subject you raise in your last post:
Numbers 15:15-16; Ephesians 2:19-22
– Frank
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February 29, 2016 at 7:19 am
Kevin,
Here’s how I understand the wedding banquet parable:
* The parable of the marriage feast set forth the contempt of Israel for God’s great Kingdom feast (Matt. 22:1-14). This contempt was shown by the refusal to come, on the part of some, and the utter disregard for the conditions of entrance, on the part of others, illustrated in the case of one who came without the wedding garment. In each case, the judgment on those who despised the gracious feast is set forth strongly. The parable is a drama in three acts. The Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a marriage feast made by the King for his son. It lasted several days. Two invitations were customary; one several days before the feast, to prevent the intended guests from making other engagements; the second a few hours before the initiation of the feast, that the guests might be present promptly on the hour.
In the first act of the parabolic drama, the King sent out his slaves to call those who had sometime before received the first invitation. But they were not minded to come. But the King was anxious that they should come, and again sent out other slaves with a more urgent call, recommending his feast by descriptive touches in detail: “See,” he said, “my dinner is complete; my oxen and wheat-fattened calves have been killed, and all is ready. Come hither to the festivities.” But the invited–not caring for the feast–made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business, while the rest laid hold on the slaves, ill-treated them, and then killed them. This made the King angry, and he sent his troops and put those murderers to death and burned their city.
This first bidding to the feast was given to the Jews by the prophets of the Old Testament dispensation. They foretold the Messianic feast of exceeding great and precious promise, peace, and full salvation in the Messiah. But the Jews would not come to the feast. Later, God sent other servants in His chosen apostles and His own Son. They brought a more urgent and explicit invitation. They were more aggressive in their manner and preached a complete gospel. But the result of their preaching was no better than that of their predecessors. Those who were invited became antagonistic to the point of violence, seized upon the servants of the King, maltreated them, and killed them. The apostles were bitterly persecuted, later, even unto death. The parable describes in a most graphic manner the punishment which the pretended but unworthy guests would meet at the hands of an angry God. Jerusalem was to suffer a complete demolition, a century later, at the hands of imperial Rome.
In the second act of the parabolic drama, we hear the King commanding his slaves: “The wedding-banquet is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy. Go out therefore into the parting of the highways, and, as many as you shall find, bid them to the feast.” And those servants went out and gathered all that they found, both good and bad, and the wedding feast was filled with guests.
To the Jewish leaders present, as to some of the people, it must have been apparent that Jesus meant in this second part of the parable that the Gentiles were to be brought into the Kingdom feast. This was a true prophecy of what happened soon. The ministry of the apostles being rejected by the Jews, they turned to the Gentiles, many of whom gladly heard and accepted the invitation to the gospel feast.
The third and last act of the parabolic drama impressed the conditions which must be met by the wedding guests, whether Gentiles or Jews. They must be clothed in the wedding garment of a righteous character and holy life. Rejection of the stipulated wedding garment indicated disregard and disloyalty toward the giver of the feast. The Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character. One who does not have character in harmony with that of the King must inevitably be cast out into outer darkness, where there will be the wailing of anguish and the grinding of teeth in defiance and bitterness toward God. *
• Shepard, The Christ, pp. 495-497.
Frank, the commentator’s take on the parable lines up with mine with very little differences as to what the invitation was and who received it. Your comments, however, do not seem to follow the commentators concepts
Quote: I understand the term “bid” to mean: hold out (something) to someone for acceptance. You speak of “invite”; i.e., make a polite, formal or friendly request to (someone) to go somewhere or to do something. There is, in fact, no where mentioned in the wedding banquet parable that the individual referenced in Matthew 22:11 accepted any invite. Unquote
Frank, I would encourage you to view several translations of the Bible. The scriptures predominantly use the word “invite”, so, let’s don’t attach the word “invite” as something I came up with, it’s Biblical language. Whether it is “bid” or “invite”, the meaning is the same. The gospel message was held out for acceptance, right? How is the gospel accepted or rejected? It is accepted by believing the message of the gospel; likewise, it is rejected when it is not believed. Obviously, the wedding guests came because they believed (accepted) the gospel (invitation), likewise, it is obvious the people that did not attend, did not accept (believe) the gospel (invitation). These things are clear to everyone and are not prophetic. So, I don’t understand how you could say the man did not accept believe, the gospel (the invitation). This is exactly the point of the parable. Those that attended believed the gospel, those that did not, rejected the gospel. This is why it’s troubling for the man to come without the proper clothes.
Quote: The point here isn’t your acceptance of an invitation, it’s do you meet the conditions to even attend in the first place. Unquote.
Frank, The point you make here is in direct conflict with itself. Your first point cancels out your second point. How do you suppose you could meet the conditions of the invite (gospel)? The conditions can only be met by believing (accepting) the gospel message, right? Therefore, the point is one must believe the gospel message (accept what has been held out to them) in order to meet the conditions to attend.
Quote: Remember, the Kingdom of God demands in its subjects, not merely profession, but moral character in harmony with the King. As we see, when he’s questioned considerately by the King in v. 12 this man is “speechless”; i.e., offers no explanation or asks any remedy for his action to the King. Unquote.
It seems like you believe moral character produces righteousness, rather than Christ. No one is good except God alone, right? (Mark 10:18). Righteousness does not come from moral character; many men, including atheists, have high moral character, but all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Righteousness comes through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel and only the gospel of Jesus Christ entirely provides all one needs to be perfect as God is perfect. Faith in the gospel also provides the attire one needs to wear to the marriage feast of the King’s son. The man attended because he believed (accepted) the gospel (invitation) of first importance; death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ, but was speechless because he was not clothed with the wedding garments of Christ that is worn by faith in the entire gospel message (Gal 3:27). Of first importance, believe Christ was crucified, buried, and rose again on the third day. He is the Messiah. Of next importance, believe you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Quote: The King having provided him an opportunity to account for his disloyalty & disregard evidenced by his lack of wedding clothes/righteousness then judged him evil & unrepentant thus not worthy; so ordering him ejected from the feast into outer darkness. The issue here is: are we holy (set apart) that we may be found worthy to stand in the presence of Holy God? Unquote.
And how are we made holy? We are made holy by being in Christ; believing and obeying the gospel message and repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? Is this not the gospel message? Are we not circumcised with the circumcision of Christ when we believe and obey the gospel? Are we not made complete in Christ when we believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ? (see Col 2:8-15). Do not be deceived and held captive by the elementary principles of the world (i.e; reject the baptism in the Holy name of Jesus Christ, nor make a mockery of it, as some do, according the elementary principles of the world; reasoning, no one is baptized into Christ by being “dunked in a tub of water” (this statement truly is a shameless mockery of the gospel message of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ) and don’t be deceived according to the elementary principles of the world; no one’s sins are forgiven by placing faith in the work of God when we believe the gospel message to repent and be baptized into Christ, through the water of baptism in His name (see Acts 19:3, 5 ). The elementary principles of the world do not allow such foolishness, but God does. Nope, according to the elementary principles of the world, the gospel message to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins is ridiculous; baptism in the only name whereby one can be saved is nothing more than being dunked in a tub of water; it’s nothing more than plain old “hogwash”, right? (it is ok to mock God, by mocking His gospel, right)? According to the elementary principles of the world, parts of the gospel are “hogwash”, but we, who believe in the importance of believing and obeying the whole gospel are not to be deceived by these elementary principles of the world are we? We are to believe the according to the gospel of Jesus Christ (Col 2:8)
Quote: Now you might draw all the suppositions you so desire. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31) Unquote.
I agree with the scriptures you quoted, but I would add these scriptures: 10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matt 13:10-13).
We are either granted the understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven or we are not granted to know them. Could I suppose it is our heart that chooses to see and hear or not, and it is with our heart that we must understand what we see and hear because God, whom knowing our heart, grants us the understanding of the mysteries of heaven, or not. (Matt 13:14-15).
Quote: Regarding how I see righteousness, kindly read my post # 154, dated January 19, 2016 at 4:11 pm in Jason’s post titled, “Is an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent God Incoherent?”, dated January 3, 2016. Unquote.
Frank, I did not look at this post due to lack of time, so I cannot comment on it.
The point of the parable is quite clear. God would judge Israel’s leaders because they had rejected Jesus, their Messiah. He would postpone the kingdom and allow anyone to enter it—not only the Jews, as many of them thought. The prophets had predicted that Gentiles would participate in the kingdom; this was not new revelation. However, the Jews, had come to believe that being a Jew was all the qualification one needed to enter the kingdom. Jesus taught them that receiving (believing) God’s gracious invitation (the gospel of God), and preparing oneself by trusting in Him (believing all that He said), was the essential requirement for participation; receiving means to believe the gospel and preparing oneself through obedience of faith in the gospel message; believe and prepare yourself through repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s not difficult to understand what Jesus and His chosen apostles preached. However, it apparently is difficult for people to believe what they don’t understand. Nicodemus is a prime example of this. At first glance, Nicodemus was rebuked for not understanding (John 3:10), but Jesus clarified His rebuke of Nicodemus was for “not believing” what Jesus said (vs. 11-12), even though Nicodemus understood what Jesus meant when He said ‘born of water and spirit”, he just could not understand how man could be born again (from above) by being baptized with water and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Nicodemus was rebuked for not believing (see John 3:11-12). Nicodemus did not believe in Jesus Christ because he didn’t have faith in the sayings of Jesus because he could not understand at the time of John 3.
Frank, I haven’t yet given my take on John 3, but I understand that you, Naz, and Leo pretty much believe the teaching of “water” in verse 5 is a metaphor of the Holy Spirit. It’s probably obvious I do not see the scripture in this way. There are several problems with that interpretation: It’s grammatically incorrect to consider “spirit” to be literal and “water” to be a metaphor. If, grammatically, “spirit is literal, then “water must be “literal”. Secondly, as you correctly pointed out and convinced Naz, “water” does not refer to natural birth, therefore Jesus was not responding to Nicodemus’s question of vs. 4. This means we must take vs. 5 in context of vs. 3. So, we understand that we must be born again (from above) by being born of water and spirit. This is a supernatural and spiritual experience done by the work of God. Nicodemus practiced baptism of “ritual purification”. He also would have expected both John (Elijah) and the Messiah to baptize with water and Nicodemus knew both John and Jesus baptized their disciples with water. The Jews understood the importance of water and Nicodemus, being a Jew would have understood “water” to mean baptism with water, just as the Jews who were with Peter, when he first preached the gospel to the gentiles, understood “water” was baptism (see Acts 10:47-48). Thirdly, if “water” is a metaphor for “Spirit”, then the literal translation you have supposed becomes: one must be born of “spirit” and “spirit”. This is what happens when someone picks and chooses against the rules of grammar; it’s nonsensical in this case because the teaching supplemented a metaphor for something that was meant to be literal “water”.
The point is this; we don’t need to understand “how” God makes us born again (from above) by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and baptism of His Holy Spirit into us, we only need to understand God needs us to believe and to trust Christ that God does His work in the way Jesus told Nicodemus and also His servants (apostles) told us (bid) holding out the same message (the gospel) in front of us to accept (believe and obey the gospel as it was offered to us; repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I submit the man in the parable of the marriage feast must have believed the gospel message of first importance; the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ, but rejected the message to obey the gospel with faith in the working of God (see Col 2:12), leaving himself naked (covered with the dirty clothes of his unremitted sins) and afraid in front of the King. Yes Frank, It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31).
Kevin
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February 29, 2016 at 8:25 am
Naz,
I’m not lumping you into anything, nor speaking evil behind your back. You outright reject the gospel scriptures calling believers to both repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. At your own peril, you bend them to your liking, mocking the gospel of God and His work in baptism of water and Spirit. In shameless mockery of the word of God, you call the gospel message of baptism into Christ “being dunked in a tub of water”, thereby rendering God’s plan to be of no effect. How are you any different than Nicodemus? He was rebuked for not believing because he couldn’t understand how one could be born again by being baptized with water (merely and without effect, dunked in a tub as you put it) and baptized with the Holy Spirit. You, not understanding how baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is a work of God and has an important part in the action of God for forgiveness of sins of a repented believer, therefore you don’t believe it. Am I missing something? Is this speaking evil? No, it’s not speaking evil to speak the gospel. I only spoke the truth; you don’t believe much of the gospel message beyond what is of first importance. This is through and according to your own admissions. So, please don’t attack me for speaking evil when I have spoken what is true. If you reject any part of the gospel message, you’ve rejected the gospel. It’s kind of like The Law of Moses, if you break one law; you’ve broken the whole Law. If you don’t believe the whole gospel, you don’t believe the gospel.
I haven’t had a chance to respond to Leo, but I agree that he did an excellent job in conveying his views. Leo is amazing insomuch that he studies and knows the scriptures but claims to be an atheist.
I agree with many of the points he made, but, like you, he believes there is only baptism / birth of the Spirit.
Your analogy of John 3:5 equates the word “water” as a metaphor of spirit, therefore your take is: one must be born of spirit (substituted for the metaphor “water”) and spirit (literally) to enter the kingdom of heaven. Believing water is a metaphor for “spirit” and somehow spirit is not a metaphor, but literal, you have conveniently eliminated baptism of water from this scripture even in the absurdity it presents, meaning it is not grammatically correct to choose one word (water) to be a metaphor and the other word (spirit) to be literal; the absurd translation according to your doctrine is this: “one must be born of spirit and spirit. Really? That makes sense to you? The only way that makes sense is if you don’t want to believe “born of water” refers to baptism with water as a disciple of Jesus Christ. And, I propose, this is exactly what your doctrine and this teaching is all about, denying the work God performs in the one re-birth experience of being born of water and Spirit. I am not trying to offend you, but you said it doesn’t matter whatever I say, you will not believe it and you also said you are not interested in types and shadows given by God in the scriptures. I’m sorry Naz, but I’m not speaking evil behind your back, I’m not speaking evil about you at all. I am saying what I have always said and have provided more than enough scripture to support the gospel of those that believe Christ was crucified, buried, and on the third day rose again, to obey the gospel in repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus Christ.
Finally, you are right, Leo a self-proclaimed non-believer understands your theology perfectly. Not so ironically though, nor is it a surprise, that a non-believer would accept the rejection of being born of water through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. What is ironic, however, is a believer would believe the gospel of first importance that a man, Jesus Christ, was born of a virgin, lived an otherwise impossible life without sinning, actually died in sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day, but decline the God’s invitation to clothe themselves with Christ through the unbelief of not understanding “HOW” God could do this thing though the waters of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. It’s even more shocking that a believer would ridicule, deride, and show shameless contempt for the scriptures, which are spoken by the mouth of God, such as you has done in mockery of the baptism into Christ as being worthless and irrelevant in the plan of God’s salvation of our souls.
Nazrul, baptism is not to be laughed at and or made fun of, or belittled, and turned into a sham. I say truthfully, with no evil intent whatsoever, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but if you don’t believe, then don’t do it because without faith in the working of God, you will only be only be dunking yourself in a tub of water.
I apologize if I offended you in any way, but I must testify to the truth, especially since you accused me of speaking evil things behind your back. Had you not done that, I would have honored your request to not discuss any of these things with you. It’s clear that you become very upset at the concept of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as part of the forgiveness of sins that repentance leads us to. Although we have never discussed it, I perceive baptism of the Holy Spirit is another touchy subject for you if someone professes something other than what you believe.
We don’t agree on several things regarding what the gospel is and is not, but I believe we both agree and believe on the gospel of first importance; Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, God was and is His father He came to proclaim His gospel so that we might believe and He was crucified as a spotless and holy sacrifice to pay for the debt of our sins so we could be forgiven and be born of God by faith in Him; Jesus Christ.
Kevin
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February 29, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Kevin, I have been baptized in water in Jesus name many years ago. Now if I don’t believe as you do, am I still saved ? Or, to be more precise, is my flesh born again ?
Actually when I was baptized I believed as you do now, but now I believe differently. Does that mean I have become unborn in my flesh ?
Just curious what you thought. Thanks.
Naz
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February 29, 2016 at 4:55 pm
Naz,
Don’t be ridiculous, no one can be unborn. All of us that have been born of a woman have an appointment with death, but all of us that are born of God, can die in unbelief; see Adam and Eve’s story if you don’t believe me. They were the only humans born of God and they suffered death in their unbelief.
Do you really think I would pass judgement upon you? Your salvation is between you and your God.
I will say this, if you had repented and were baptized believing in Jesus Christ, then you were baptized into Jesus Christ and God looked upon you and saw the atonement of Christ. He saw a reflection of His own image because you were joined with Christ in all that took place in His flesh (death, burial, resurrection and you became sinless in the sight of God). Today you have no regard and show no respect for the scriptures by making mockery of your baptism and now view it with contempt, so, I don’t know where you might stand with God, but I am sure He is not pleased with anyone that makes a mockery of any part of His gospel.
I suspect you may have been a believer in a legalistic way, believing we must dot or “I’s” and cross our “T’s to be saved. Following some sort of formula to be saved. If one thinks in this way, one is probably not saved, but I will let God decide those things. I am not coming from that frame of mind. You have never, at any time, heard me speak of following a formula for baptism or salvation. I simply and truly believe what the gospel says and trust that it is true. I have also experienced the gospel in the same way the original believers experienced it, therefore I know from experience what is true. I am not a crazy person, nor unstable and because I know my experience is real and the word of God is true , therefore, I am not deterred by others dissenting views. I know what my experience in Christ is and I know what my experiences have been. At the same time, I know I don’t know everything, so I listen with an open mind to what others have to say concerning the scriptures and the gospel and look to the scriptures to see if it is true. I’ve done that with you, but could not find truth in your dismissal of baptism with water from the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So you know what I also believe; Repentance won’t save you if you reject the gospel of Christ. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ won’t save you if you don’t believe and repent. Baptism with the Holy Spirit won’t save you, if you, afterwards, reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. To me, it’s all about believing and putting your faith in obedience to the gospel message of Jesus Christ. I don’t believe I will be disappointed by doing so. Paul said there is only one gospel and do not believe another gospel than the one they preached, even if an angel of light comes to you professing a different gospel than the one he preached and they received. Common sense tells us there is definitely more than one gospel being preached today, otherwise we would not have so many variations of the gospel and opinions of what the gospel is. Therefore, I choose to believe what the scriptures plainly say and what I plainly experienced. All who distort the gospel and dismiss that parts they don’t believe in or add to it things that were not preached, do so at their own risk and peril.
As far as you believing at some time in your past, as I believe would be impossible to accurately make that statement without knowing more about me. You have a tendency todo what people do, size other Christians up and place them in a category without really knowing them. I dislike this so much and if you remember, I was very displeased when you did it with me early in our dialogue; casting me as a member of the UPC. How do you know what all I believe? I’ve only spoken to you about believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ with repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. We have not corresponded about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so you don’t really know what all I believe or why I believe it, nor do you know what I believe when we get beyond these elementary principles of the gospel. I was trying to share these things with you and listen to your views with an open mind, but you’ve made it clear that your mind is not open.
I would tell you this about me. If being a flawed human being is a requirement to become a saint, my application should be revoked, because I am over qualified. I don’t struggle with being self righteous because I know I am not worthy of salvation. I’ve done too many things against God to deserve His love and mercy . . and even more than that, to many things against God to judge anybody else for anything.
Peace,
Kevin
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February 29, 2016 at 8:43 pm
IT is a most terrible fault of Christians to take a few words from one scripture, a few words from Jesus and a few words from another scripture, lump them altogether and claim the words are from Jesus and rightly parsed. NOT SO FAST! I put little faith in the interpretation of the Preachers who came after Jesus and tried to take over his role; most have done a lousy job reaching all over the bible claiming that everything in the bible is from Jesus. But that kind of exercise is a rejection of everything Jesus stood for while trying to retain everything that Jesus was against trying; how can you be so foolish as not to see that. Did Jesus tell the church, the preachers, that everything was just hunky-dory, the rituals, the sacrifices, the blood letting and sprinkling, baptism, washing the hands in pre-ordained ways, wearing special garments, stoning people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, killing people for not accepting the the words of the clergy and the ridiculous laws and penalties of Moses?
NOW LISTEN UP:
John said:…..”Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”…. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Jesus said…..As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’…… “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”……From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Then Peter said, NOT JESUS, BUT PETER SAID to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus never uttered those words and the entire quote of Peter is a misrepresentation of what Jesus declared and yet you put more faith in Peter than you do in Jesus, which is the folly of Christians, Peter and all the Preachers who came after who give credence to the Preachers’ interpretations because they fit in with Church dogma.
There’s nothing you can’t read into the bible or take from it. So whatever nasty shitty little attitude that you harbor toward your fellow man; or, whatever doctrine you jump on to demon-strate your biblical academia will find justification in scripture because, like the sands of the desert, fixed and immutable, yet, ever shifting, the words of god are infinitely versatile. Open that book and watch them dance across the page like ninjas, each one a soldier for you and your petty prejudices or your take on Absolute Certainty Viewpoints.
Because scripture depends on interpretation, because it is so ambiguous, the way you choose to interpret it, reveals who you are in your heart, so in that sense it’s not a shield at all. It’s a spotlight that shows up a heart like an x-ray.
As with and Christian and Judaist Fundamentalists, take those hard line Saudi clerics for example who take sadistic pleasure interpreting the Koran as cruelly as possible, they merely reveal themselves for the blood thirsty monsters that they are and advertise to the world the darkness in their petty little souls and their pitiful inadequacy as men.
Right now the Anglican Church is tearing itself apart because some people again have taken refuge in scripture as an excuse for prejudice against women and homosexuals. In any other walk of life in the civilized world this would be prosecuted as a crime. Because scripture legitimizes it, implying that it’s the result of profound reflection when in fact it’s just a grubby front for chauvinism and ignorance.
Quote the Man Jesus, call him (God) if you want to, but quote the one you claim to follow and sufficeth it to tell the world about what he said, not what all the preachers who ever were preachers ever said down through the ages before and after Jesus. If he is the only one why are you all giving scriptures from all over the bible to make your talking points..
You see you are past masters at complicating the issue and turning your Christian faith into a complicated procedure when in point of fact, it derives from a person; it’s of him, through him, to him, all things to whom alone be glory. He’s the beginning and the end; he’s the author and the finisher of our faith; he’s the source and the sustenance; he’s the root and the fatness; Christ himself. And he came into this world to be the truth about God and the truth about man and he was the truth about God because he was the truth about man, because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God. God the Father is living within you, the same God the Father that was living in Jesus! God is not somewhere up in the Northern Sky for Christ sakes! and you won’t find him in Acts. Jesus told us where God is and demonstrated the proposition for 3 and a half years until the rage of religion finally captured him.
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February 29, 2016 at 8:48 pm
Naz:
You are unravelling and becoming a candidate for dracula…..heh heh heh…. 😉
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March 1, 2016 at 3:35 am
Leo, You asked for belief to be based solely on the words of Jesus, therefore, I quote these. Let me know what you think?
MATT 16:16-19
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
What say you Leo? Are we to believe and trust Jesus’s word here? If so, then we must trust and believe what Peter said, if not, then you can’t claim to believe the words of Jesus either.
Kevin
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March 1, 2016 at 4:16 am
Leo,
I agree with you that one could come up with any kind of doctrine by the misuse of scriptures . . . and that is exactly what has taken place from the beginning of the Old Testament. There are too numerous examples of it, but I’ll offer a simple one:
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
It was not unlawful for a Jew to associate with a foreigner (gentile) according to the Law of Moses. This was only one of 600+ laws created by m,an to put a hedge around the Law of Moses. I’m only using this as an example of how far back man has misused religion, therefore I am in agreement with your observations concerning religion. You really are correct.
It’s astounding that the rulers and teachers of Israel, being scriptural scholars could not see Jesus for who He truly was. They had veered so far off course with God, they no longer could see and hear for their hearts had become calloused and hardened. It doesn’t mean they were not good in the sight of people or were insincere in what they believed. It does mean they had veered far from the truth and understanding of the scriptures handed down to them.
What you have observed is the same thing happening since the beginning of organized religion beginning with the Catholic church. The so called church fathers (according to denominational organizations), began corrupting the interpretation of the scriptures dating back to the late first century. There are so many errant doctrines, based on “so called early church fathers”, who are not church fathers of the Living God, just as there are so many errant laws added to the Law of Moses.
What had be-felled the Judaism before and since the time of Christ has befallen the church of Christianity today. Our scholarly leaders and teachers have added to and taken away so many tenets of the gospel that, like the Pharisees and Saducees, have lost “The Way” as it was preached and taught by the eyewitnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If one understands this, then one should approach any commentary with a grain of salt, meaning check the scriptures out for yourself and see if it is true. Commentaries are helpful and can give us great insight to the culture and understanding of the things of the biblical time they were written, but to put our trust in the commentary of a scholar, because one thinks the scholar must know beter than him without praying and asking God to open your mind to understanding the scriptures as you search them to see if the commentators concepts are correct, is foolish. Look where that took the jews; it lead them to crucify their Messiah. We should not make the same mistake. We should not believe what somebody says until we examine it for ourselves. In a certain way, the historical church fathers (the so called ones; our Pharisees) have crucified the gospel of our Messiah, rendering it powerless to save based on their teachings.
I can see many of your points because these things are true. However, Jesus trusted the Ol Testament scripture as you can find for yourself, Jesus quoting them in support of His ministry and calling. Jesus chose the Apostles to build His church. We must trust Jesus taught them and opened their mind to the understanding of the scriptures. If Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom, then Jesus knew Peter understood who Jesus was and what the gospel message of Jesus CHrist was also, therefore we can trust Peter did the will of Jesus when he preached the gospel of Christ.
Kevin
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March 1, 2016 at 10:28 am
Kevin,
I’ve yet to see your posting and critique, as you did concerning Shepard’s wedding banquet commentary and what I concluded from it, of my post regarding righteousness, i.e., post # 154 dated January 19, 2016 at 4:11 pm in Jason’s “Is an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent God Incoherent?” dated January 3, 2016. When you find the time please feel free to follow the same format and put its full text into your reply. Meanwhile, I encourage you with the following: This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:19-27)
– Frank
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March 1, 2016 at 11:52 am
Kevin, in every argument there are two points of view. While you have accused me multiple times of making a mockery of the gospel because of my “tub of water” comment, from my point of view I also could accuse you of making a mockery of the gospel by your insistence that a symbolic expression is efficacious of God’s salvation. So much so that the ultimate expression of God’s grace through the sealing of the Holy Spirit was dismissed by you as being insufficient for salvation. But I will not call your understanding a mockery because I have lived in your shoes and I know that it is not your intent to mock the gospel, and neither is it mine.
I never said a person should not be baptized in water and I am not denying the words of Jesus or Peter, but I am denying your words on the significance of water baptism based on the spirit of the written word of scripture and not the letter. We are commanded to do many things by the Spirit, one of which is water baptism. Our obedience to commands does not save us, we are saved by spiritual birth and given a heart to obey the Lord in all things.
This is last I will speak on this topic, and I will end in saying this…water baptism is something we partake in and is something we do after we have already believed the gospel. Our salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ the person and not of works, lest any man should boast. Water baptism is clearly and simply a work that we do, it is a picture, a symbol, of our death and our resurrection in Christ that occurs as a spiritual reality, not a physical reality. The physical reality will come at the resurrection. So simply on the basis of the definition of a work, which water baptism clearly is in the natural realm, it cannot be a part of salvation but is subsequent to salvation.
If we insist that water baptism is essential for salvation, then we are unwittingly adding to the finished work of Christ. So it is no longer salvation through Christ alone but salvation through Christ + water baptism. I know this is very subtle but that’s how the enemy works. Look at the discourse and harsh words that we have interchanged over this topic in the past number of weeks/months. Look at the division this topic has caused between 2 brothers in Christ all because we cannot agree on a unified gospel of Jesus + nothing else. I believe water baptism is one of the last “sacred cows” of religion. I say this not to demean the act of water baptism, but I say this because I believe as people mature in Christ they will begin to see the futility of anything else except Jesus Christ Himself. As our minds get renewed in Christ, we will start to see that the symbols and shadows of a religious mind set don’t measure up to the reality that is in Christ. Not to worry, people will continue to be baptized, this will not stop and I hope it doesn’t. My hope is that people will put their faith in the one that baptizes with the Holy Spirit and not on works that they do in the name of Jesus.
Peace.
Naz
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March 1, 2016 at 11:57 am
Frank, this is from one of your posts, it is well said.
“The one who so properly understood the requirements of the law must have realized that no person could fulfill those requirements. Surely that one would consequently come to Christ to receive the salvation that He offered. * ”
That is one of the main purposes of the teachings of Jesus, to show that we cannot measure up to the righteousness of God and that by imputation alone can we be made righteous through Jesus Christ.
Do you agree ?
Naz
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March 1, 2016 at 1:01 pm
Kevin, one more thing … 🙂
As for my unborn comment, isn’t that what has to happens to someone in your view when someone rejects the gospel and loses their salvation after they have been saved ?
If one is a child of God by birth, the only way he can cease to be a child of God is to be unborn. I agree, this is ridiculous as you said because you cannot be unborn, therefore one cannot become a child of God and then cease to be if he is a child of God by birth.
Just as you cannot cease to be the child of your parents after you were born. Good, bad or ugly you are the child of your birth parents whether you like it or not.
The ramifications of this is radical and those that are religiously minded will not accept the notion that a person who is saved cannot lose their salvation. Heresy they will say ! Well we have to remember that God has it rigged and when He saves a person, He puts His Spirit in them so that the person who seemingly rejects God will battle all his life with the Spirit that lives in Him. In effect he will be fighting himself which is a terrible way to live.
Also, we must realize that not all that appear to be saved are genuinely saved since as John said “They were not all of us because they did not continue with us”. This would apply to religious people perhaps, or those that have only an intellectual knowledge of the gospel, or maybe those that have just taste-tested the gospel and rejected it. Regardless, our job is not to go around and try and figure out who is saved and who is not.
God knows those that are His.
Peace.
Naz
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March 1, 2016 at 1:07 pm
Naz,
Thank you for your response. I would like to clear up one misunderstanding. I never dismissed baptism of the Holy Spirit as being insufficient for salvation. What I said, in answer to your hypothetical question, is Cornelius and his household, even though they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, had they refused to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as Peter commanded, they would have fallen into unbelief.
Naz, I have an honest question and honest offer:
If it were true that baptism is an “add on” to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I would change my opinion in a heart beat. Just show me where and when baptism was added on to repentance for the forgiveness of sins by those whom preached the gospel and I will gladly receive this fresh revelation and immediately join with you.
If not, would you at least accept baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not an “add on” to the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Kevin
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March 1, 2016 at 2:18 pm
Kevin, does your offer include heated seats and a sun roof ? 🙂 🙂
I will reply tomorrow if I can, life is getting in the way again.
Naz
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March 1, 2016 at 2:39 pm
Naz,
Maybe!
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March 1, 2016 at 10:07 pm
Naz,
Be mindful of our brother, Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Messiah within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Messiah and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven–things into which angels long to look. Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ/Yahshua Messiah. As children of obedience, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but according to the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Messiah. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from a clean heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWERS FALL OFF, BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.” And this is the word which was preached as good news to you. (1 Peter 1:1-25)
Isaiah 40:9-31.
There is only One sinless Life [Hebrews 4:15] that has ever or will ever serve the One True Everlasting God of Salvation [and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world (1 John 2:2)]. “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
– Frank
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March 2, 2016 at 6:34 am
Frank, I understand that our behavior should match our identity in Christ as holy and righteous. However, both you and I and everyone else on this blog knows that is impossible to attain perfectly although we strive for it not out of fear of judgement, but because right behavior fits who we are and right behavior is what we really want because as born again children of God we have been given a new heart and a new spirit as the scripture says. Sin does not work for a born again person any longer. Any time we sin it doesn’t sit well with us. A born again person cannot continue to practice sin although he may stumble because of his flesh. Although we have a new spirit, our flesh is the same and our soul (mind, will, emotions) needs to be daily renewed by the spirit and the Word of God. As our minds are renewed, our behavior will match our identity more and more but we can never achieve behavioral perfection although we are perfect in our spirit through Christ.
This is why Peter wrote his epistle, because if behaving righteously was automatic, then he and the other apostles would have no need to write about behavior. What we need to understand is that your behavior is NOT your identity if you are in Christ. Sin will never fit with a child of God. You will prove you are a child of God when you behave like Christ or when you struggle with sin. An unbeliever does not struggle with sin and will continue to practice sin with no struggle because sin fits the unbeliever perfectly.
Naz
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March 2, 2016 at 7:00 am
Naz,
Like it also says in that very same post you referenced: “When Jesus observed that His questioner consented to the truth that He had stated, He announced, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God’ (Mark 12:34).” Be in that Beatitude Attitude. He’s there for all of us.
– Frank
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March 2, 2016 at 7:47 am
Frank, yes the scribe was “not far” from the kingdom of God but he was not yet there not having the ability or means to fulfill the 2 great commandments within himself. Only through Christ can this be done.
Naz
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March 2, 2016 at 11:15 am
In Christ Alone, Amen.
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March 3, 2016 at 7:43 am
Unready, unwilling & unable, “being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;” (Ephesians 4:18)
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March 3, 2016 at 10:26 am
Naz,
I’ll throw in alloy wheels too!
Kevin
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March 4, 2016 at 9:10 am
Naz,
In your post dated *March 2, 2016 at 6:34 am* you write concerning, “right behavior” in relation to “fear of judgment”.
Consider the following: Acts 17:24-31. http://www.perspectivedigest.org/article/75/archives/17-3/god-s-judgment-as-salvation#top
– Frank
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March 4, 2016 at 11:30 am
Kevin:
Your post 85 is not without merit.
I will point out a couple of obvious things. Peter was the person who denied Jesus the night he was arrested. Having told Jesus he was ready to follow Jesus unto death Jesus made the statement, knowing that denial is not far from any man whose life may be on the line. I am not saying that Peter was unworthy, just that he was also in the dark about certain aspects of the God, Jesus called the Father (within), among other things.
I would also note that Jesus was very selective about the scriptures he quoted from the Old Testament. The most he used was the predictions that one day a man shall come, take up the mantle of the Messiah and run with it; that man was Jesus and for that reason he used quotes to support his own idea that he need to be that man and that he therefore was the fulfillment of those scriptures. Jesus also noted on several occasions Moses and the Seat of Moses because he knew this was the stock and trade of the clergy and so used scriptures in that way to correct the clergy as well as mocking the holding to scriptures they wanted to hold while avoiding and ignoring other scriptures; the most obvious incident where this is evident was when he asked the Pharisees: “for what works do you want to stone me” and the clerics replied “not because of works do we stone you but because you make yourself out to be God.” IT was at this point that Jesus mocked their selective use of scripture and quoted Psalm 82 that was never preached or even talked about; God said “you are sons of God”. And the bible is well versed with the intro phrases: “God said”, “the Lord says”, etc. So Jesus responded by saying “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God ‘?…
Notice here how the reference “(and scripture cannot be broken)” is used to indicate to the Pharisees and Scribes that, that was the mantra of the Clergy, holding the bible at literal face value when it suited the dogma but this scripture was completely overlooked as many like-scriptures are also overlooked by clergy today who proclaim the infallibility of scriptures except when someone turns it around and says something not normally thought of outside the hamster wheel.
Where did Jesus authority come from that made him take the mantle of Messiah and run with it? Remember, all through the years everybody was sitting around waiting for the Coming of the ONE but none came and the years went by and went by and nobody took the responsibility to take up the mantle and it was left undone…look at today as an example…AND ever since, Jesus said that the Son of Man IN HIS DAY would come again…he was not referring to himself; he was referring to someone like himself, the so called Second Coming; well, everybody is waiting for it because nobody has assumed the role and why is that? Because nobody believes what Jesus said about the Second Coming anymore than anybody believed about the First Coming why? they are waiting to observe it when it comes! But Jesus said IT WILL NOT COME THE WAY PEOPLE THINK IT WILL COME. Jesus made this abundantly clear in Lk 17:20 Jesus speaking: “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Now if the Kingdom of God is within you then where do you think that the one who will eventually claim to be the Second Coming we speak of, is getting his authority? From WITHIN” which is exactly where Jesus got his authority to be the First Coming that revolutionized the world into forgiveness, compassion, love, kindness, repentance…..the basic requirements for the transition from the Old Earth and Heaven to the New Heaven and the New Earth to take shape. Remember the simple Lord’s Prayer that holds the wish? “…Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven….” That is, the bringing heaven out from the invisible into the open where it can be seen and benefit humanity to the end that immortality can be made manifest.
ARE YOU THE ONE OR SHALL WE WAIT FOR ANOTHER?
Matt 11″ 2 onward…
Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see:…
Luke 7:20:
John’s two disciples found Jesus and said to him, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else?'”
This may surprise many of you in light of how Jesus’ was baptized by John before John was imprisoned where John seemed to accept Jesus as the Messiah at that time….So John was then in prison being prepared for beheading as biblical history reveals,
Matt 3:13-15: “Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him…..”
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March 4, 2016 at 2:04 pm
Kevin, I want to comment on your statement …
“even though they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, had they refused to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as Peter commanded, they would have fallen into unbelief.”
I think we have a basic disagreement on the concept of eternal salvation. I don’t believe a person that has genuine faith in Christ can fall into unbelief and lose their salvation, especially if that person, in the case of Cornelius, was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. You may be referring to those that have professed faith but did not continue and those people are probably those that were never born again in the first place. The story of Cornelius is a story of someone who was born again, and we get to read of his birth in the book of Acts.
As for baptism as an “add-on”, again, I think we differ in our general concept of what the gospel is. While where you tend to think that repentance, baptism and receiving the Spirit is 3 “parts” of the one whole gospel, I don’t see the gospel in terms of “how” we receive it or having to meet a certain pattern or rule. To me this is a very religious or law based approach mentality. When I think of the gospel, I equate it with Jesus Christ and what He did on our behalf. While it is important that we genuinely receive salvation through what Christ has done, I don’t see how we can disqualify ourselves for something we did not work for our earn in the first place. Our difference in approach therefore leads to a different interpretation of the scriptures and leads us to different conclusions on many theological levels. For example, when you read Acts 2:38, you see a very plain and simple 3 step formula for what these people need to do to be saved. I don’t see that, I see the verses before 38 that explain the source and the essence of the salvation Peter is talking about and in the following verses I don’t take actions such as water baptism to equate with salvation itself because of the bigger picture concept of salvation by grace through faith apart from works. I see water baptism is a work, as I explained in my previous post. This is my vantage point when I read the scriptures. I don’t deny water baptism or any other command given by Jesus or the apostles, but theologically it is our responsibility to understand what baptism means and what role it plays, if any, in our salvation. From my vantage point, it plays no role whatsoever, not because I want to dismiss it or not obey the ordinance, but because I want to lift up what Christ did on the cross and not reduce what He did to a symbolic gesture alone. Unlike yourself, I don’t believe that God is using water baptism to rebirth our flesh, or to apply His blood to us for forgiveness. I believe our salvation occurs when a person comes to genuine faith in Christ, this occurs in the heart of an individual and is not something that we can judge or measure by a 3 step process or any other formula. We always give the benefit of the doubt but God knows those that are His. We can see the effect of the spiritual reality of salvation when we look at the thief on the cross and what transpired with him in his final hour. Yes, I know water baptism in Jesus name was not in play yet, but if you look at that account, it really is a picture or an example of what happens to every individual that is saved. I don’t think we need to make receiving salvation any more difficult than that. After all, salvation is a new birth and is a work of God’s Spirit.
I totally understand how you can come to your theological conclusions by just reading the scriptures verbatim. Not too long ago I believed almost the exact same way that you do today. While we can read the scriptures literally, we always need to consider the spirit behind the written word. This is difficult sometimes since we are so far removed from the context. We have argued about the book of Acts versus the epistles but I think this is a mute point, what we really should be looking at is if our theology is man-centered or God-centered. When I think of water baptism, I don’t see God in it other than in symbolic form, similar to the communion when we take the bread and wine that is symbolic of his flesh and blood. So when you stress water baptism as you have done, while I understand you say it is a “work of God”, all I see is a work of man or at least a co-work of man. This raises red flags to me because I see myself partaking in my salvation which I know theologically is wrong.
The truth will always set us free and not be burdensome. As I told the story before, I have seen people that were unable to be baptized for medical reasons, I have seen people struggle to speak in tongues and they could not, how do these things set these people free ? Does God not love them ? While I know I should not create theology out of my experiences, these things has helped me to understand the bigger picture more clearly. This is where I stand today, in another few years I may have some different thoughts or ideas that may tweak my understanding further. We’ll see. Regardless, my basic belief system has always been Christ centered. My goal is to focus that more and more to see where it leads…
To summarize Kevin, I think the main reason for our differences is because of our approach or basic understanding of what the gospel and salvation is. The hard work was done by Jesus, all we need to do is receive it and say thank you Lord ! I purposely did not quote any scriptures because as I said, how we read them depends on what glasses we are wearing. While the fundamentalist will disagree, all we need to do is count the number of denominations and then we will see that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways, some better than others of course. That doesn’t bother me as much as it would have years ago because my hope and security is in Jesus Christ, the person, and not my perfect interpretation of the scriptures.
Naz
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March 4, 2016 at 4:09 pm
Leo,
There is a series on cable called “the end of the age”, by Irwin Baxter. I believe you would enjoy it.
Kevin
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March 4, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Naz,
I think you misunderstood my question. According to your claim that baptism was an “add on” to the gospel, I asked, “Where and when baptism was added on to repentance for the forgiveness of sins by those whom preached the gospel?”
Your Post #102 did not answer this question. It was more of the same stuff we covered already, ad nauseam. We are past that stuff.
We agree on what the first importance of the gospel of Jesus Christ is and there is no need repeat it.You correctly defined the difference we have regarding the gospel: I believe, if we are believers, we need to obey the gospel message command to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I believe repentance and water baptism are forever linked together for the remission of sins according to the gospel that was preached beginning with the baptism of John (notwithstanding the sovereignty of God to forgive sin under any hypothetical scenario one could think of). You on the other hand, believe repentance is not linked to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. You believe it was “added on” to the gospel.
So, according to your theology, if it is true, you should be able to show us where and when baptism became an “add on” to the preaching of the gospel.
Naz, I am asking you because I have examined the scriptures and cannot find it.
Can you share your revelation with me according to the scriptures?
Kevin
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March 5, 2016 at 5:53 am
Naz,
You mentioned the view I have of the gospel is considered to be legalistic. To me, legalism means to put unnecessary and non-biblical rules on one to be saved. If obeying the command to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is separable from believing and obeying the gospel message, then I am guilty of legalism. I assure you, I don’t want to be found guilty of causing or being a stumbling block to someone’s salvation.
You mentioned the UPC denomination a couple of times in your posts. Years ago, my wife and i attended one of their churches. We liked the preaching at first, but it soon became obvious the belief system was corrupted with non biblical doctrine. A doctrine of standards of holiness required by the members of the congregation. I examined the scriptures they provided and could not find their claims to be supported in scripture unless one squinted really hard and turned a blind eye to the truth. In other words, the teaching and practicing of holiness standards they adhere to are not supported in the scriptures. They quote scriptures in an effort to support the teachings, but they are at best, a huge stretch of one’s imagination. I came to find out, the leaders know their teachings of holiness standards are not biblical, but they firmly believe it is important to hold onto their heritage. Well, that is where one must disembark. I want to mention that the people are a lovely group of people and I don’t mean to disparage them. However, if your leaders put a greater importance on tradition and heritage than on the scriptures, you have become like the Judaizers Paul stood up against.
I am telling you these things because the UPC are an example of people that believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, but with the caveat of the “add ons” of unbiblical doctrines of holiness standards to be saved or as proof of one’s salvation or something like this. It’s unbalanced and places a stumbling block in front of the gospel message. I want people to be save, not lost.
So, having said these things, I hope you understand how serious I take the scriptures. Therefore, when someone points out, I am believing in an “add on” to the gospel, it’s a serious charge. The last thing I want to be found doing, is adding onto or taking away from the word of God (Dt 4:2). This is the crux of our debate. Either I am adding onto the gospel message by believing our sins are blotted when we repent and are baptized in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ, or you are taking away from the gospel message the need to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
I truly want the truth to come forward, do you? I am open to your theology if it is true. However, I need you to prove it within the scriptures. According to the scriptures, there is a clear record of the gospel message preached and witnessed by those chosen by God. Therefore, I don’t believe I am asking too much of you to support your theology directly from these Biblical preachings. It is not acceptable to dismiss my theology on the basis that, as you have put forth, the preachings are not to be taken literally. I have provided hard evidence of what we are supposed to believe and obey. Not only believe in the work of Christ, but to also believe His commands.
Please provide your proof that baptism was added to the gospel message. If it is true, the proof must be in the record of the gospel message preached by those sent by God. If it is true, I want to believe it.
Kevin
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March 5, 2016 at 1:05 pm
May our names be found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life for if we haven’t found forgiveness of our sins by way of Messiah’s work on the cross then only one option remains. We ourselves must pay the penalty owed to a Righteous Holy God for our own sin. Ezekiel 18:23-32.
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.” (Ezekiel 18:30-32)
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March 7, 2016 at 5:07 am
Naz,
I am genuinely trying to understand your theology. Would it be correct to say your theology is:
Jesus Christ, is the Son of God, He died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected on the third day, whereby He overcame sin and death for all that believe, Jesus did this for us. We become saved the moment we believe this is true, therefore anything other than believing this alone, has nothing to do with our salvation.
However, it’s perfectly fine to observe repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (or however you choose) and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, but none of these things come with any power to save. If one believes any of these things somehow or in someway imparts salvation to the believer, they have taken the gospel out of context, and have turned the work of God into a work of man.
Naz, do I understand your theology correctly?
Kevin
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March 7, 2016 at 6:49 am
Kevin, that’s pretty close.
The only thing I would say is that repentance is not an observance, but is what somebody does when they turn from unbelief to faith in God. This is not to say repentance is a work, but repentance is wrapped up in faith. In other words, repentance is not the act of my ceasing to sin in order to get right with God, rather it is a change of direction towards God and His gospel.
As for belief, this is not just a mental or theological exercise. It is something deeper where a person trusts and relies in Christ alone for his salvation apart from any religious work or deeds. A lot can be said of this kind of faith, it can also looked upon metaphorically as opening the door when Jesus knocks. When a person has faith in Christ, he has bought into Him 100% and nothing can sway him from his faith.
I have come to believe that the core message of the gospel must focus on Jesus Christ and what He did. There is too much focus on how we receive the gospel to the point where it has caused divisions in the church as we have seen over the centuries. We put so much emphasis on “how” to receive salvation without realizing it is after all a new birth through the Holy Spirit and is totally a work of God which we simply can receive by opening the door.
For a person to truly believe in Christ is a big deal and should not be looked upon as “easy believism” as they say. I know many that out right reject the gospel even though they know the scriptures and can quote them. Some of my co-workers speak about Christ as a religious side show and have no faith in Him. it would be a huge deal if one day these people would bow there knee to God in repentance and actually believe. This would be a true miracle.
I will leave you with this scripture where Paul speaks of the things of first importance. This is not to say there are not other things of second importance, but the core message of the gospel has always been about what Christ has done. The cross is what saves us and nothing else. This is an attack on our religious ego and it is from this that we need to repent from in order to fully grasp this great salvation.
So where does that leave water baptism and the rest ? These are things of second importance which cannot effect or annul your salvation, because if it did, then salvation is not through the cross of Christ alone. This is where we differ, when you say the whole gospel, you are lumping the things of first importance and second importance together so that all bases are covered. On the other hand, I see a clear separation between the things of first importance versus the things of second importance based on the theology of salvation through the cross alone.
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Naz
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March 7, 2016 at 7:21 am
Naz,
Ok, so, according to your theology, repentance is a command that must be obeyed if you believe the gospel. Is that correct?
Kevin
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March 7, 2016 at 8:45 am
Kevin, believing the gospel is repentance from whatever else a person believed prior. For the Pharisee like Nicodemus that would mean repentance from his religious works and reliance on the law. For the modern person, say an Atheist, it would be repentance from a belief in no God and Darwin etc…
In other words, when a person comes to faith in Christ, God has granted him repentance as the scripture says….or you can say that he is a repented person based on the fact that he now has faith in Christ. It’s all intertwined and the distinction is subtle. I personally would not phrase it as a “command that must be obeyed”, although Paul does refer to it as the “obedience of faith” so that’s fine I suppose.
Naz
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March 7, 2016 at 9:47 am
Based upon Ezekiel 18:30-32 I think God grants us the power to exercise our conscience and turn away from transgression and toward Him asking for forgiveness. Just as God gave the power of life to Lazarus to obey His command to come forth so he then struggled forth from the grave. God grants us the gift of faith in His Son for salvation as well should we receive it.
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March 8, 2016 at 2:31 pm
Frank:
“God gave the power of life to Lazarus to obey His command to come fort…..”
Please don’t be ludicrous; they buried Lazarus alive because of his medical condition that caused him to have vital signs that were undetectable in those days. Jesus, knowing about Lazarus condition, weeped for Lazarus knowing that they buried Lazarus alive and imagined how horrible Lazarus was after waking up his affliction in the morgue of the burial tomb. Egads.
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March 8, 2016 at 2:33 pm
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March 8, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Leo,
I think the next “name” you put up for yourself should be “Same Ole Song”. What a drag!
– Frank
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March 8, 2016 at 7:54 pm
Frank:
You have too much ego to suppose posters are going to follow your on-line video lessons as teachings of the bible. If you can’t respond in your own words it’s because you do not have the capacity to understand Jesus or to speak about him; you jus don’t know him. This problem I do not have and that is why most of what I say is without approval from others which you unfortunately rely on to try to support what indoctrination has embedded in your brain.
Here is what Jesus said of you theologians who think they know what they are talking about:
How can believers do what is right, know what is right, hear what I say, when they constantly look to each other for approval and are not concerned about the true approval that comes from the authority within of which I said, “the Kingdom is within you”. And where does the Father reside? In the Kingdom!
“There’s trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests—look how many scoundrel preachers were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular. :-? John 5:41-44 ”I’m not interested in crowd approval. And do you know why? Because I know you and your crowds. I know that love, especially the Father’s love, is not on your working agenda. I came with the authority of my Father, and you either dismiss me or avoid me. If another came, acting self-important, you would welcome him with open arms. How do you expect to get anywhere with the Father when you spend all your time jockeying for position with each other, ranking your rivals and ignoring the Father? John 12:42-43 On the other hand, a considerable number from the ranks of the leaders did believe. But because of the Pharisees, they didn’t come out in the open with it. They were afraid of getting kicked out of the meeting place. When push came to shove they cared more for human approval than for the Father’s glory.
How can you know anything is right when you look to one another for approval? Look to academia to show off academic skills and arguments given by people, few outside of academia, ever heard of; it certainly meant nothing to a carpenter who came to fix your window when it jammed.
It never ceases to amaze me how every Christian claims to know the mind of God hence Jesus and what he wants or how he expects others to perform to his standard of what good or righteousness is across the various cultures of mankind based on the interpretations of ancient men whose knowledge of meteorology was slim to none let alone aspects of the supernatural gods he created other than what he divested in them to account for man’s own lack of intuitive sense.
These scriptures are they which speak to you Frank, always posting some youtube video from 119 Ministries or other obscure, seemingly knowledgable groups expressing their take on Jesus from a supernatural mindset. These are people made stupid by religious insanity and you are numbered among them Frank for all your pretense and approval based on what others say.
Get Jesus or get lost.
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March 8, 2016 at 9:44 pm
Leo,
Get a life.
– Frank
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March 9, 2016 at 12:09 am
Naz,
If I understand you correctly, I like your application of believing; meaning believing the gospel of Jesus Christ requires action on the part of the believer by placing faith in Christ. Repentance is a necessary response to activate faith in Christ. It is one thing to believe Jesus is the Messiah, like many of the Pharisees did (John 12:42-43, 47-48), but it is another to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ by repenting away from a life without Christ and towards a life with Christ. When we believe the gospel, by placing our faith in Christ, our sins are forgiven and we are saved (born again) by the action of gospel (death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ).
In other words, when we truly believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, repentance is synergistically active in placing one’s faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, one cannot and does not truly participate in believing (placing their faith in) the gospel of Christ without repentance.
Do I understand correctly?
Kevin
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March 9, 2016 at 6:10 am
Kevin, yes I agree with what you said and you understood me correctly.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Naz
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March 9, 2016 at 6:56 am
Naz,
Hallelujah! We finally have come to an agreement on something important without any discourse. :0
Kevin
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March 9, 2016 at 7:10 am
I think I can here the angels singing !!
Naz
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March 9, 2016 at 7:46 am
Naz:
That wasn’t angels singing; that was me humming toward the hearts of those willing to hear the words of the son. 🙂
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March 9, 2016 at 7:49 am
From Leo’s Famous Quotes:
“There is little forgiveness for the masses who, more often than not, allow the ancients of old status quo dictate what normal common sense denies.”
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March 9, 2016 at 2:35 pm
Naz & Kevin,
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. (1 Peter 1:22-23)
– Frank
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March 27, 2017 at 5:44 pm
[…] See also: The Story of Christianity from Beginning to End: Putting the Pieces Together […]
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September 23, 2018 at 3:16 pm
The greatest story ever told: as per fertile imaginations of authors who never existed until centuries after the unfolding story had been unfolding over millennia and which unfolding unfolded to the time of the authors birth and that continued to unfold after the authors passing into the history of the greatest story ever told as the story continued to unfold and the unfolding story unfolds still.
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