The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead was the central message of the early church and the basis of Christian hope. But why should we believe that a man was raised from the dead 2000 years ago when we were not there to witness it, and when our uniform experience says that dead people always stay dead? While many people think the resurrection of Jesus is something you either choose to believe or choose to reject based on your personal religious tastes, the fact of the matter is that there are good, objective, historical reasons to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Historians must do two things: establish the historical facts, and then find the best explanation for those facts. When it comes to the life of Jesus, the primary source material for the historian is the New Testament (NT) gospels and Paul’s writings because they include the testimony of early disciples who witnessed the events in question or knew those who did, and they provide the most detail about Jesus’ life.
You might be thinking that this is not fair because the gospels and Paul’s epistles were written by Jesus’ disciples, and therefore are biased. That may be true, but all historical documentation is biased. That does not prevent historians from sifting through the material to discover what is historical versus what is not. They don’t need to presume the NT documents are divinely inspired or inerrant. Historians of the NT (which includes both Christians and non-Christians) apply the same historiographical principles to the NT that they apply to other ancient sources to determine which parts we have good reason to believe are historical. Some of these principles include:
- The date and number of testimonies
- The closer the witness is to the historical event, and the more people who report on that same historical event the more likely it is to be historically accurate.
- Eyewitness testimony
- The testimony of those who were present for the event they are reporting on is more likely to be historically accurate than the testimony of those who were not present.
- Criterion of embarrassment
- When people are making up a story they usually portray their heroes in a positive light rather than a negative one, so the inclusion of information that could be embarrassing to the heroes is usually a good indicator that it actually happened.
- Lack of embellishment
- When people are making up stories they tend to embellish the account with superlative details, so if an account is lacking such superlatives it is more likely to be historically accurate.
- Coherence
- The details of a historical event must cohere with one another if it is truly historical. The presence of incongruent details is a good indication that there is some fiction involved.
Applying these principles of historiography has led the majority of NT historians to conclude that the following elements of the Jesus story are historically reliable:
#1 – Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate
Historians think Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate as the NT claims because:
- There are multiple, independent, early attestations to this fact in both the NT and from non-Christian sources.[1]
- There are no competing claims concerning Jesus’ death (even from non-Christians and enemies of the Christian faith).
- This was an embarrassing fact for the early church and thus would not have proclaimed it if it was not true. Jewish expectations of a messiah was that he was a conquering king who would defeat the Romans. To be killed by the Romans would be understood as de facto proof that Jesus was not the messiah.
Significance
This historical fact is significant because it means Jesus’ death was a public and official event that could be verified by Romans and Jews alike. Furthermore, the nature of His execution ensured His death, excluding the alternative explanation that Jesus never really died.
#2 – Jesus was buried in Joseph of Arimathea’s tomb
Historians believe that Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea because:
- There are multiple, independent, early attestations to Jesus’ burial in a tomb[2] and that it belonged to Joseph of Arimathea[3] in the NT.
- Joseph of Arimathea was part of the Jewish Sanhedrin responsible for condemning Jesus to death. If the Christians were inventing the burial story, surely they would be the ones to give Jesus an honorable burial, not a stranger from the Sanhedrin.
- The burial stories lack embellishment.
- There are no competing stories concerning the fate of Jesus’ body.
Significance
This historical fact is significant because it demonstrates that the location of Jesus’ tomb was public knowledge, making the apostles’ claim of Christ’s resurrection easily falsifiable if it was based on a lie. If Jesus truly rose from the dead his tomb would be empty. To falsify the apostles’ claims, the Jewish leadership could simply point to the body in the tomb.
#3 – Jesus’ tomb was found empty by a group of women followers on the Sunday morning following the crucifixion
Historians believe Jesus’ tomb was found empty for the following reasons:
- There are multiple, early, independent attestations to this fact.[4]
- Women’s testimony was considered generally unreliable. A legendary account would have surely made male disciples the principle discoverers of the empty tomb. To report that it was women who discovered the tomb empty would have been an embarrassing fact for the early disciples, and thus this testimony is historically reliable.
- Christianity could not have begun and flourished in Jerusalem if the tomb was not empty. The site of the tomb was known to the religious leaders in Jerusalem, so if the apostles were preaching the resurrection of Jesus despite the fact that His body was still in the tomb, the religious leaders could have quickly discredited their claims of resurrection. Disciples wouldn’t have made up a story so easily falsifiable. One can imagine how Christianity could have started in Rome since Jerusalem would be too far away for anyone to verify the claims of the apostles, but it’s not plausible for Christianity to begin in Jerusalem if Jesus’ body was still in the tomb.
Significance
If the body of Jesus is missing from the tomb, one must explain what happened to it. Furthermore, while an empty tomb does not prove Jesus rose from the dead in and of itself, it is a necessary condition for a genuine resurrection and thus is consistent with the resurrection hypothesis.
#4 – Many people had experiences of Jesus after He was crucified that they believed to be appearances of a resurrected man
While not all historians believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, they are convinced that people had experiences of Jesus after His death that they interpreted to be appearances of the risen Jesus because:
- There are multiple, independent, early testimonies to these appearances.
- Jesus appeared multiple times, not just once; to many individuals, not just one; to groups of people, not just individuals; in various locations, not just one; under a multiplicity of circumstances, not just one.
- Jesus not only appeared to disciples, but to skeptics (James) and enemies (Paul) as well.[5]
Unlike Elvis sightings, these appearances were not fleeting. People not only saw Jesus, but they engaged Him in sustained conversations[6], had physical interactions with Him,[7] and witnessed Him eating food.[8] That’s why the disciples did not merely conclude that they were seeing Jesus’ spirit, dreaming, hallucinating, or experiencing a mere vision of Jesus. The nature of the appearances caused them to conclude that Jesus was alive in the flesh.
Significance
One has to explain how so many people would have so many experiences of Jesus alive after His death, and why those experiences would stop for everyone after just 40 days if Jesus had not, in fact, been raised from the dead. The nature of these experiences is consistent with a resurrection.
#5 – The disciples believed Jesus rose from the dead despite every predisposition not to.
There are other facts concerning the mental state of the disciples that are important to consider too. For example, we know the disciples proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah even after His crucifixion. This is an historical oddity because the Jews had no concept of a dying, yet alone rising Messiah. They saw the messiah as a conquering king. When other would-be messiahs were killed, his disciples would give up their messianic hopes or find themselves a new messiah. No one ever continued to believe that their leader was truly the messiah, yet alone claim that he rose from the dead. The disciples of Jesus did, however. What can account for this bizarre conclusion given their Jewish understanding of the messiah?
More important is the mental state of the disciples. The gospels make it clear that the disciples had already given up hope in Jesus as the Messiah after His crucifixion (Mk 16:10; Lk 24:18-21; Jn 20:24-25). They were despondent and fearful, hiding from the Jews and Romans. They were not expecting or hoping for anything further to happen related to Jesus. When the women reported seeing Jesus alive from the dead, the disciples did not believe them (Mk 16:11,14; Lk 24:10-11). They didn’t believe the testimony of the two disciples who encountered Jesus on the way to Emmaus either (Mk 16:12-13). Thomas refused to believe (Jn 20:24-28). Even when they saw Jesus in the flesh for the first time, they doubted it was Him and thought they were seeing His spirit (Lk 24:36-43). They required a lot of evidence before they concluded that Jesus had risen from the dead. Once they saw Him, however, they believed. It changed their mental state and their demeanor. Not only was their hope restored, but they were changed men. Rather than hiding from the Jewish authorities they boldly confronted them for crucifying Jesus and preached about Jesus’ resurrection (Acts 4:1-22; 5:27-32).
Significance
This mitigates the possibility that the disciples invented the resurrection story or “wished” Jesus back to life. A dying and rising messiah is too far beyond the pale of Jewish theology to be invented, and the mental disposition of the apostles following the crucifixion is not at all consistent with wishing Jesus back to life.
#6 – The conversion of James
The conversion of Jesus’ brother, James, is also considered to be historically accurate. John 7:5 tells us that Jesus’ brothers did not believe He was the messiah. Rather, they believed He was insane (Mk 3:21)! We have good reason to believe this report is historically accurate because it would be embarrassing to the early church that Jesus’ own family did not believe in Him during His earthly ministry. It’s interesting, then, that we see at least two of Jesus’ brothers, including James, coming to faith within several weeks after Jesus died (Mt 13:55; Acts 1:14). His brother James even went on to lead the church in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13; 21:17-18; Gal 1:19; 2:9,12).
A dead messiah is a failed messiah, so why would James refuse to believe Jesus was the messiah prior to Jesus’ crucifixion (when messianic expectations for Him were high and Jesus was performing miracles), but then embrace Him as the messiah after His crucifixion (when all messianic expectations were gone)? In the NT book that bears His name, he even calls Jesus the “Lord of glory.” What would it take for you to believe your brother was not only the messiah, but God incarnate?
#7 – The conversion of Paul
The conversion of the Apostle Paul is also historically solid. This was a man who was trained as a Pharisee and had a promising career as a religious authority (Acts 22:3; Gal 1:13-14; Phil 3:4-6). He was intent on wiping out the Jesus movement. He consented to the death of Stephen and had orders from Jerusalem to arrest disciples of Jesus as far away as Damascus (Acts 7:54—8:3; 9:1-2; 22:4-5). Why did the persecutor of Jesus’ followers become a Christ follower himself? What caused a zealot against Christianity to become a zealot for Christianity? Why did a man who had everything to lose and nothing to gain become the greatest Christian missionary of all time?
Significance
The significance of Paul and James’ conversions is that they involve a skeptic and an enemy. These people were not predisposed to believe in Jesus, but to reject Him. And yet they came to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead – the same conclusion that Jesus’ disciples had come to.
Assessing the Evidence
Now that we have established the historical facts that need to be explained, how do we explain them? I would argue the best explanation for these facts is the one Jesus’ original disciples offered: resurrection. There are competing non-miraculous hypotheses, to be sure, but none of them can explain all of the facts that need to be explained (lack explanatory scope), lack plausibility (explanatory power), and are often ad hoc. For example, the hallucination theory holds that those who had experiences of Jesus after His death were merely hallucinating. This explanation lacks explanatory scope because it cannot explain the empty tomb (if the disciples were hallucinating, Jesus’ body would still be in the grave, but we know the grave was empty). It is also disconfirmed by our knowledge of hallucinations. Like dreams, hallucinations are private mental events. They are individual occurrences, not group occurrences, and yet Jesus was seen by multiple people at the same time.
The theft hypothesis is another alternative theory which holds that the disciples stole the body of Jesus and then proclaimed that He had risen from the dead as predicted. This hypothesis also fails to explain all of the historical facts. It cannot account for the conversion of James and Paul, and it denies the fact that the disciples had genuine experiences of Jesus after His crucifixion in which they believed they encountered the risen Jesus. It also requires one to believe that the disciples were liars, but this is inconsistent with the fact that at least five and possibly 11 of Jesus’ apostles were killed for their message of Jesus’ resurrection. While some people are willing to die for what they believe to be true, people are not typically willing to die for what they know is a lie. Liars don’t make good martyrs, and yet they went to their graves confessing the risen Jesus.
The fact of the matter is that only the resurrection can explain all of the historical facts. Only the resurrection can explain:
- how a man could be crucified and buried, disappear from His tomb, and then appear to hundreds of different people on multiple occasions.
- why the disciples would continue to believe Jesus was the messiah contrary to all expectations and prevailing Jewish theology.
- how the apostles went from deserting Christ and hiding in fear to bold proclaimers that He was both Christ and Lord.
- the conversion of James and Paul. Both changed their minds about Jesus when they encountered Him alive after His death (Acts 9:3-6; 22:6-21; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:7-8).
When you find a group of credible people who have nothing to gain and a lot to lose claiming that they saw Jesus alive after His death, and are willing to die for this claim, you must find a valid way to explain that. While the resurrection cannot be proven with certainty, it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt as the best explanation for the historical data.[9]
Why it Matters
Is the resurrection of Jesus just a matter of historical interest? Is it an historical oddity that we ponder, then shrug our shoulders and move on with life? No. The resurrection of Jesus is an event of enormous significance.
First, it vindicates His identity claims, proving that He really is both Lord and Christ. If He was not who He said He was, then He was a blasphemer against God and we would not expect God to raise Him from the dead. But God did raise Him from the dead, vindicating Jesus’ claims.
Secondly, it validates His teachings regarding the spiritual realm, and proves that Christianity is the true religion. If Jesus rose from the dead, the question of which religion is true is settled.
Thirdly, the resurrection means that death has been defeated. If we will put our trust in Christ, though we die, we too will live again. Death will no longer have the final word in our lives. Jesus is the beginning of the resurrection. Those who put their trust in Him will be raised on the last day just as Christ was. Paul wrote, “Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.” (Rom 8:11, NET)
Finally, our eternal destiny depends on how we respond to Christ. What do you do with a man who was raised from the dead never to see death again? Will you surrender your life to His? Will you accept the forgiveness He is offering? God has offered you a pardon in Jesus, and now you have a choice. You can either accept that pardon by trusting in Christ’s work, or refuse to accept it and pay for your own moral crimes.
If Jesus is who He claimed to be, and He really did rise from the dead, when we choose to reject Jesus we are choosing to stand before God based on our own works. In light of our sin, this is a death sentence. Only by accepting Christ’s work on Calvary on your behalf can you escape the consequences of your sins. That’s the good news of Christianity. That’s the meaning of Christ’s death and resurrection.
For a more detailed argument for the resurrection of Jesus, including answers to common objects, see my article titled The Evidentiary Basis for Affirming the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Other resources:
- Was Bodily Resurrection a Later Christian Invention?
- What do Jesus’ post-resurrection wounds tell us about our own resurrected bodies?
- Is it rational to believe in something without verifiable, empirical evidence?
- “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed”: Is Jesus opposed to apologetics?
- Blessed Are Those Who Believe Without Seeing
- Resurrection and Inerrancy
- The Tomb of Jesus
- A Resurrected Christ: The Most Unlikely of All Conclusions
- Jewish or Roman Guard?
- The Size of the Stone Covering Jesus’ Tomb
- When did Jesus Rise from the Dead?
- Bodily Resurrection a Later Christian Invention?
- Did Matthew Record Jesus’ Resurrection Appearance to 500?
- Why Didn’t Jesus Appear to Unbelievers?
- Why Did the Apostles Wait so Long to Proclaim the Resurrection?
- Are the Biblical Witnesses of the Resurrection Disqualified Because They are Christians?
- How Was Jesus in the Earth for Three Days and Three Nights?
- Was the Crucifixion Really on Friday and the Resurrection on Sunday?
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwXx_EQuQdQ
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[1]Mt 26:2; 27:26,31-49; 28:5; Mk 15:21-36; 16:6; Lk 23:26-45; 24:7,20; Jn 19:17-29,41; Acts 2:23,36; 4:10; 13:29; Rom 6:6; 1 Cor 1:13,23; 2:2,8; 2 Cor 13:4; Gal 2:20; 3:1; Heb 6:6; 1 Pet 3:18; Rev 11:8; Josephus; Tacitus; Lucian; Talmud; (possibly Thallus).
[2]Mt 27:57-60,64,66; 28:1-2 Mk 15:43-46; 16:2-5,8; Lk 23:51-55; 24:1-3,9,12,22-24; Jn 19:38-42; 20:1-8,11-12; Acts 13:29; 1 Cor 15:4 (allusions in Rom 6:4; Col 2:12)
[3]Mt 27:57; Mk 15:43; Lk 23:51; Jn 19:38
[4]Same Scriptures as in footnote three plus Acts 2:29-32; 13:29-31,35-37; 1 Cor 15:4
[5]The following appearances are recorded in the NT:
- Mary Magdalene (Jn 20:10-18)
- Other women (Mt 28:8-10)
- Cleopas and another disciple (Lk 24:13-32)
- Eleven disciples and others (Lk 24:33-49)
- Ten apostles and others (no Thomas) (Jn 20:19-23)
- Thomas and other apostles (Jn 20:26-30)
- Seven apostles (Jn 21:1-14)
- Disciples (Mt 28:16-20)
- Apostles at Mt of Olives before ascension (Lk 24:50-52; Acts 1:4-9)
- Peter (Luke 24:33-34; I Cor 15:5)
- Five hundred people (I Cor 15:6)
- James (I Cor 15:7)
- Paul (Acts 9; I Cor 9:1; 15:8) (Paul’s conversion, along with James’, is often treated as an evidence in itself)
- Various others (Acts 1:21-22)
[6]Mt 28:9-10,18-20; Mk 16:14-18; Lk 24:13-22,36-50; Jn 20:14-17,19-23,26-29
[7]Mt 28:9; Lk 24:37-40; Jn 20:20,26-29
[8]Lk 24:41-43
[9]There is no historical reason to disregard the resurrection hypothesis; only a philosophical bias against miracles or theism. But if God exists, then miracles are possible, and there are many independent lines of evidence in favor of God’s existence.
March 24, 2016 at 10:11 am
Jason:
The simple fact remains that Jesus was not dead anymore than Lazarus was dead because we know that dead people do not rise and when scriptures says that when the crucifixion took place the graves were open and many who were “sleeping; aka dead” arose and returned to their loved ones..this is total nonsense that tries to validate the impossible that men do not rise when they are dead.
Why would anybody bury the dead otherwise?
Dead and apparent dead are two different things and using ridiculous arguments to validate God is worse than merely useless as it just perpetuates a myth that nobody in his right mind can believe. You are flogging a dead horse and sounding ridiculous in your insanity to pursue the matter.
It’s like trying to describe Medusa:
Medusa was originally a golden-haired, fair maiden, who, as a priestess of Athena, was devoted to a life of celibacy; however, after being wooed by Poseidon and falling for him, she forgot her vows and married him. For this offense, she was punished by the goddess in a most terrible manner. Each wavy lock of the beautiful hair that had charmed her husband was changed into a venomous snake; her once gentle, love-inspiring eyes turned into blood-shot, furious orbs, which excited fear and disgust in the mind of the onlooker; whilst her former roseate hue and milk-white skin assumed a loathsome greenish tinge.
Can you not see any parallels here?
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March 25, 2016 at 1:04 pm
“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
https://www.chosenpeople.com/site/resurrection_m/?utm_source=E-Blast&utm_medium=Resurrectoin_NL&utm_campaign=Resurrection
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March 25, 2016 at 1:08 pm
Scripture reference in post # 2 is John 16:33.
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March 25, 2016 at 3:15 pm
Following the Resurrection, why not stay and rule? This has to be a major reason why the Resurrection is rejected if you are inclined to the supernatural.
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March 25, 2016 at 9:07 pm
Paul,
According to Messiah Himself as recorded by Luke in the Book of Acts:
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. (Acts 1:6-12)
Because Israel rejected Messiah the Father has delayed God’s Kingdom for Israel. He’s instituted a pause in bringing it to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [Romans 11:25]. As Messiah promised He sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples that they may carry the Gospel of God to the “remotest part of the earth.” As Paul points out in Romans 9-11 all Israel will be saved [brought into the Kingdom of God) after being provoked to jealousy by God offering His Kingdom to a nation without understanding of Him (Gentiles) [Romans 10:1-21, 11:11-36, 15:15-16].
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Act/Act_001.cfm?a=1019006
– Frank
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March 25, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Paul, why think that just because Jesus was resurrected that this means he should rule politically?
Jason
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March 25, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Messiah shall fulfill the Davidic Covenant:
Click to access tmsj10p.pdf
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March 25, 2016 at 11:09 pm
Frank and Jason,
Isn’t He supposed to rule? Didn’t His disciples think He was going to restore the Kingdom at that time? Didn’t the early Church have the feeling He would return at any moment to restore the Kingdom? I find it problematic that the Kingdom hasn’t come yet but as a Christian I accept the explanation. However, I can understand why others don’t. I’ve had several discussions especially with Jews and they reject the Resurrection in large part because the Kingdom wasn’t restored. The women said He was risen, but the 2 disciples still went to Emmaus. Why, because nothing had changed.
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March 25, 2016 at 11:33 pm
Paul, yes the disciples thought he was going to defeat the Romans because their understanding of the messiah was that he was a conquering king. They had no concept of a dying and rising messiah. They had no concept of a messiah who would die for their sins.
Jesus will rule as king, but He will do so in the future. That’s not what He came to do the first time around. The first time was a rescue mission. The second time He will be conqueror, but He will not conquer just Rome. He will conquer the whole world. And He won’t be doing it for just the Jews. Their expectations were just not aligned with God’s plan.
As for the two going to Emmaus, they had heard the women’s testimony, but they did not believe them. It wasn’t until after the male disciples saw Jesus that things changed for them.
Jason
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March 25, 2016 at 11:57 pm
Paul,
It’s understandable that Jews have been hardened in part because they’re being provoked by God to jealousy as it says in Romans. The scales haven’t fallen from their eyes and they don’t see therefore reject their own Messiah. Many of them are confounded by the prospect of two Messiahs Son of Joseph who would be the Suffering Servant and Son of David who would be the Righteous Judge & King. Many Jews understand falsely Messiah as two individuals rather than One Person making two separate advents. Many are uninformed of the promise made to Miriam/Mary at the Annunciation that her child would rule from the throne of David [Luke 1:30-35]. Look to Daniel 7:1-28; Isaiah 9:1-7; Zechariah 14:1-21 amongst numerous others in the OT/Hebrew Scriptures for prophecies of Messiah’s Second Advent/Millennial Reign.
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/thetwocomings.htm
http://jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/psalm72.htm
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/DayOfAtonement.htm
– Frank
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March 26, 2016 at 12:46 am
Jason et al:
The Kingdom of God has been misunderstood by everybody of supernatural and superstitious bent from the beginning of the world and that includes the Christian world and the whole world in thrall by religious insanity. What Jesus showed was that one had to revolutionize their thought processes; revolutionize the way of thinking about God and the Kingdom of his residence. that the way that people thought of the Kingdom was wrong, incorrect and totally inaccurate. Jesus amply demonstrated the Father who reigns in the Kingdom and clearly stated the true concept of the Kingdom of God which he said was already at hand. John the Baptist also reiterated that the Kingdom was at hand, within reach of anybody who would listen to the truth, the way and the life!
OMG you can read it for yourself: “:Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” And when they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. Therefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, it is in the desert; go not forth: behold, it is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”
Now if the Kingdom is within you how can it be coming and if it does not come by observation how can you expect to see it? The only way you can see it is when you take heaven out of the Kingdom of Heaven, within you, and follow through with the fulfillment of scriptural lamentation prayer: “Thy Kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
What is so supernaturally alluring that prevents your from understanding the simplicity of the Kingdom being within you and that it is not some military invasion to conquer the whole earth and rule with a fist of iron?
If the world can just listen to Jesus who showed over and over and stated time after time again, that the Father “within” the human spirit, is the essence of the divine logic through which the Kingdom is first recognized by you and then with demonstrable behavior show the world that you are putting into play the will of the Father, on earth, as Jesus did?
And you cannot even understand the concept of soul but all soul is, is the emotion seat in the human spirit, not some weird entity with a built in immortality cushion!
You see, but see not, and you hear, but hear not, why is the world so obtuse about the simplicity that was in Jesus’ message. Why? Because you are so indoctrinated with the paranormal and dead men rising, you are blinded by common sense humanity. But metaphorically speaking, you are already DEAD MEN walking and the world is waiting on you to RISE from the Dead and take action! Open your understanding!
You don’t imagine that Jesus takes any pleasure in having a heaven filled with men and women redeemed by his life, trials and tribulations who will be as useless in heaven as they are on earth? Stacked in bundles of 10, dusted with DDT once a week by a bunch of angels, do you imagine that’s what heaven’s like? Heaven is going to be populated with men, women, boys and girls, who’ve been restored to their redeemed and now true humanity, acquitted and forgiven that we might be restored in that true humanity and become by adoption members of his family. We do not yet know exactly what we will be but this at least we do know that when we see him and understand the what, the why and the how of his life and message on earth which was true fulfillment, we’ll see him as he is and we’ll be like him, we’ll be like him, out of the Kingdom of Heaven within you and now revealed to the rest of the world.
That’s the Coming you’re all waiting for; can’t you just see it? It makes total sense without being fanatical and absorbed by the paranormal hoax perpetrated since the year dot.
If you don’t hear one other single Easter Message this season, hear the one that the spirit cries out to you.
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March 26, 2016 at 10:31 am
Certainly it is total nonsense to you, but your odd reference to Medusa aside, the point of the article is – if there is a God – then resurrection is possible. Simple statement and hard to refute.
Certainly if there is not a God, then you are absolutely right. Further the scriptures agree, the Bible says that if Christ is not raised our faith is useless. But if you are wrong about God, which would be hard to prove either way, then you could well be wrong about the resurrection of Christ.
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March 26, 2016 at 10:38 am
Spiritual Giant, you don’t seem to understand that the Kingdom of God has both “already here,” and “not yet arrived” elements. One kingdom. Already/not yet..
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March 26, 2016 at 10:39 am
My previous post, starting with “Certainly it is total…” was a reply to the Revelator.
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March 26, 2016 at 12:25 pm
Jesus said the Kingdom is within you; if you have not grasped that concept then it is yet to come (to your understanding) if you have grasped the concept it is already here within you as Jesus plainly says in Luke 17: 20-21 The Kingdom does not come by observation because the Kingdom of God(the Father) is within you. It was already come for Jesus because that is what guided his campaign and he then set about to reveal it to the world who were blinded by the supernaturalism of the Pharisees and unfortunately his followers as well from then until this very day.
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March 26, 2016 at 12:27 pm
If the concept of God is correct then you have to first define it to allow for the dead to be resurrected. Jesus definition of God and the Father are very different from the generally held belief about the poof poof miraculous of church dogma.
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March 26, 2016 at 12:31 pm
Jesus disagreed with the long held concept of God and constantly referred to God as the Father within; that is where the divine logic of the concept of the God the Father lives, In his kingdom,,,,you just have to accept that and let the Father guide you as per the words of Jesus so Jesus by the Father and we by Jesus, the son.
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March 26, 2016 at 12:42 pm
Jesus spoke of the rising of the dead metaphorically because men who do not understand the concept of the God the Father living where he does , in you, then you are walking as dead men. He also referred to himself rising from , not the dead, but as the place where dead men go in the tomb, so escaping the tomb without being dead is symbolic of rising from the dead, the same place where Lazarus rose from the dead from tomb the but Lazarus of course was not dead; he was suffering from a rare form of disease named Narcolepsy, Cataplexy.
see this documentary link:
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March 26, 2016 at 2:16 pm
Jason:
As to the resurrection of the dead, that was a cornerstone of church dogma of the Pharisees so naturally the masses held to that belief too especially as Paul himself declares how he was brought up and taught in all the Laws of the Pharisees. It was easy for them to conclude that a resurrection from the dead took place given the unusual circumstances when the tomb seal rolled away of its own accord and the body gone missing.
Paul Before the Sanhedrin
…7As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”
1 Corinthians 15:12
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
And then after the healing the appearance, secretly of Jesus in the secret rooms where their meetings had previously been held. Can you guess whose secret rooms and who owned the mansions where the meetings took place?
Many witnesses are witnesses to their belief and not to any facts or evidence. And why do you suppose that Jesus said to thomas to place his fingers in the scars of his hands and side? Because the wounds had healed over. Would a renewed body be resurrected bearing the scars of a tortured life, scars are from are evidence of the healing process.
Jason, the reference you cite that Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the ruling Jews, the Sanhedrin is true but to say it as you does an injustice to the memory of Joseph as a secret disciple of Jesus; and so was Nicodemus also a member but they were secret disciples of Jesus and it is not accurate to include either Joseph or Nicodemua as part of the crucifying crew; it was Nicodemus who tried defending Jesus to the other rulers when the rulers pounced on Nicodemus in a fit of anger yelling at him: “48 Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49 But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.”
50 Nicodemus (he who came to Jesus by night,being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?”
52 They answered and shouted him down, “Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet has arisen out of Galilee.”;
The Gospel accounts present Joseph as someone of great importance in social and religious terms: a man of wealth and an important member of the Sanhedrin, who did not agree with the decision against Jesus, who was waiting for the kingdom of God, a disciple of Jesus. John also brings onto the scene a second notable disciple, who teams up with Joseph. This is Nicodemus, who at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry had come to visit him at night, and had received from him the proclamation of the new life from above.
Joseph was a member of the Sanhedrin. This gave him honor among men, and he must have been of good reputation to be chosen to so exalted a position. We are told also that he was a good man and devout, and had not consented to the counsel and deed of the court in condemning Jesus. Perhaps he had absented himself from the meeting of the Sanhedrin when Jesus was before the court. If he were present, he took no part in the condemning of the prisoner.
Then it is said further that he was “a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews.” That is, he was one of the friends of Jesus, believing in his Messiahship. We have no way of knowing how long he had been a disciple, but it is evident that the friendship had existed for some time. We may suppose that Joseph had sought Jesus quietly, perhaps by night, receiving instruction from him, communing with him, drinking in his spirit; but he had never yet openly declared his discipleship.
The reason for this hiding of his belief in Jesus is frankly given, — “for fear of the Jews.” He lacked courage to confess himself “one of this man’s friends.” We cannot well understand what it would have cost Joseph, in his high place as a ruler, to say, “I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is our Messiah.” It is easy for us to condemn him as wanting in courage, but we must put ourselves back in his place when we think of what he failed to do.
It was Joseph who went to pilate to ask for the body while he and Nicodemus did the anointing ritual of the body after placing it in the tomb. It is as you say, Joseph’s tomb, wherein Jesus was laid but Joseph had hewn the tomb over a period of 2 years and devised a secret tunnel of escape because as members of the Sanhedrin both Joseph and Nicodemus were privy to the secret high meetings of the rulers and knew full well they needed to prepare for the event of Jesus capture and eventual execution; it is worth noting that Jesus knew of other plots against him; namely, the plot of Judas and why at the Last Supper Jesus knew who was to betray him because Joseph and Nicodemus kept Jesus up to date of the proceedings developing against Jesus for the duration of his ministry.
Where do you think the last supper was held, in whose Mansion and who were the people most likely to provide Jesus with the loaves and fishes to feed the multitudes from the cache that had been stocked for the two retreats Jesus held. You can hold onto the myths but you do yourself no favor to discourage common sense possibilities rather than miracles to perpetuate the hoaxes of “as miracles” of feeding the multitudes and turning water into wine. Remember these two important men were disciples and extremely wealthy, Nicodemus was reputed to be the third richest man in town. They would have owned the wineries and bakeries, fish packing plants and food warehouses and barns full of goats and sheep and oxen, horses, donkeys and cattle, chickens and all manner of market garden produce, fruits and vegetables and were more likely than not suppliers to the Royal Roman Military.
These two illustrious characters, members of the Sanhedrin and secret disciples of Jesus, moved by the supreme proof of love of truth revealed by Jesus, come out of the shadows invested with an extraordinary courage.
They openly show themselves to be disciples of the Crucified One in the last days and each offers him a gift: Nicodemus, precious spices and perfumes for anointing, and Joseph, his new tomb. The authors of the Gospels have exalted them forever to the memory and veneration of all Christians.
The Church of Jerusalem and the Christians of the Holy Land commemorate Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus each year on 31 August.
I can construct a replicate tomb to demonstrate the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea and it would not involve any supernatural means whatever. I could seal it with a huge rolling stone, secret a tunnel, remove the body for medical attention, placed the grave clothes in a neat little pile, engineer the stone from the entrance to reveal an empty tomb and Presto, let the worship being! And you would have to search to figure it out or in the absence of due diligence you might just get lazy and claim it was a miracle and leave it at that. And the news of a miracle would be noised throughout the land as a testament to the supernatural God of mankind and place your offerings in the collection plate.
Well done. Well done!
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March 26, 2016 at 7:19 pm
Frank and Jason,
Thanks for your responses. It is my understanding that atheists and certain theists reject the Resurrection because they believe it is impossible for different reasons. The atheist doesn’t believe you can supernaturally bring back the dead. Some theists, especially the Jews, because certain criterion were not meet. Therefore, the evidence we agree on is irrelevant because the Resurrection is impossible as far as they are concerned. Now with the Jews you have the extra burden that this new gospel is turning the people from the Lord their God as per Deuteronomy Chapter 13. Now as a Christian I accept the Resurrection and I’m waiting for the Second Coming, but I have to admit, I find the delay problematic when trying to prove the Resurrection occurred.
Paul
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March 26, 2016 at 9:30 pm
Paul,
As to the Jews of Jesus’/Yahshua’s day it was the Sadducees who rejected the resurrection. The Pharisees believe in the resurrection. Check out the account in Luke 20:27-38 which begins: Now there came to Him some of the Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection),. They were actually coming to put Him to the test to try and catch Him in His words and humiliate Him. They raised the issue of the wife who was in turn married to seven brothers with each brother dying; each leaving her childless to be married to the next successive brother. Their question to Jesus/Yahshua was, whose wife would she be in the resurrection? He responded, those of the resurrection don’t marry nor are they given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection [Luke 20:35-36]. Even more significantly Messiah told them, “But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.” (Luke 20:37-38)
We trust in the justice & sovereign authority of God. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man [our Kinsman Redeemer]. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” (John 5:24-30)
– Frank
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March 27, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Frank,
I agree there was division among the Jews regarding the belief in a resurrection of the dead. But the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a different matter I think.
Let me discuss further, I think the Resurrection confirms the cross. IMO the cross and its confirmation (ie. the Resurrection) can both be included in the following: “unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness” because of the reasons I previously stated.
We must and should continue to give a reason for our belief but unless a person is drawn by the Holy Spirit they will not believe no matter what evidence is presented. I’ve been reminded of this lately during witnessing to Roman Catholics.
Paul
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March 27, 2016 at 3:37 pm
Paul,
It is true, only God can change the heart.
– Frank
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March 27, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Frank:
How would you know that only God can change the heart? Unless of course you attribute all things to God ; well, all things except evil of course. Oh, and except for what Isaiah says:
Isaiah 45:7: 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
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March 28, 2016 at 7:22 pm
Paul,
Here’s an intriguing insightful presentation on Jewish attitudes about & interpretation of the Life & Ministry of Jesus/Yahshua of Nazareth.
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name; and deliver us and forgive our sins for Your name’s sake. So we Your people and the sheep of Your pasture will give thanks to You forever; to all generations we will tell of Your praise. (Psalm 79:9, 13)
Give thanks to YHWH, for He is good, for His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the God of gods, for His lovingkindness is everlasting. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for His lovingkindness is everlasting. To Him who alone does great wonders, for His lovingkindness is everlasting; . . . Give thanks to the God of heaven, for His lovingkindness is everlasting. (Psalm 136:1-26)
– Frank
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March 28, 2016 at 8:33 pm
S. Giant,
God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah that, “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) This is because in our carnal nature we’re dead in our trespasses, dead in sin. We need to be regenerated by God to be made spiritually alive [Ephesians 2:1-7]. All life comes from the Divine Source of the Almighty. The problem with our hearts is what characterizes them apart from that Supreme Source of Life; i.e., our bondage in sin.
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/489/What-Sin-Is-Does.htm
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March 28, 2016 at 8:46 pm
S. Giant,
Concerning Isaiah 45:7 don’t take it out of context. It’s not referring to moral evil here. Examine this commentary:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Isa/Isa_045.cfm?a=724007
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March 28, 2016 at 9:32 pm
Frank:
I am not taking 45:7 out of context; you on the other hand go all over the bible to decipher evil to mean something it may or may not mean according to Isaiah. Before Isaiah gets to the evil in 45:7 he uses evil beforehand to describe those things one ought not choose so in that context he does mean moral evil. Regardless of moral evil there are other evils that have nothing to do with behavior; a rogue wave capsizes a boat and drowns all on board, a person swimming gets bitten by a shark and perishes, lightening strikes 7 people in the cemetery killing them while praying and paying their respects to the dead, evil befalls a young child because of a deranged individual, an avalanche suddenly buries the skiers, a landslide buries an entire village, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods…… all evil that befalls man…evil is evil whether it is moral evil or not. Trying to pick scriptures all around the bible to support moral evil is niggling and skirting the issue of evil. Is polio a moral evil? So what if it is not it is still evil whether caused by a person or caused by a pathogen. James speaks of his evil and Psalms speak of its evil and Isaiah speaks of his evil…it is not a one glove fits all even as you all try to make everything said from one cover to the other seem to say exactly the same thing when it does not.
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March 28, 2016 at 9:43 pm
To be literal about it, What spirit do you think led Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the devil? What do you think being led into temptation or being tempted, well you have to parse the word and say well the spirit wanted to test him and the devil may have wanted to wanted to tempt him as apologetics would say but it was the spirit that led him into temptation nevertheless.
But having said that, that entire discourse about the desert and temptation is metaphorical for the process of normal human thought and reason about what to do and how to best accomplish the goal as he pondered the best scenario to begin his campaign.
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March 28, 2016 at 9:58 pm
Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human traits, emotions, and intentions to non-human entities and is considered to be an innate tendency of human psychology.
This what humans do when they find a contradiction such as found in:
“”And you shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not,” (Deut. 8:2).
The open theist position on this verse is that since God does not know the future, He had to test people to see what was in their hearts. But there is a problem here. Because in open theism, God knows all present things exhaustively. If God was going to test people to see what was in their hearts, does that mean God did not know what was already there?
Enter the psychology of anthropomorphism and that explains it away, oh that fantasy is so easy to summarize to mean whatever we want since we invented the fantasy we can make it do whatever we need to to answer anything that might arise through common sense.
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March 29, 2016 at 7:31 am
“I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.” (Jeremiah 33:8)
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March 29, 2016 at 7:43 am
“It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.” (Jeremiah 33:9)
KNOW GOD & MAKE HIM KNOWN:
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March 29, 2016 at 6:30 pm
Frank,
Thank you for the link, The Other Side of the Cross was a good resource.
I’ve thought of what the Jews went through in the first century (which is still on going) as similar to the Reformation Christianity went through (which is still on going). Not to get to far off topic but it seems the Jews went in 3 major directions as far as Jesus of Nazareth is concerned. 1. false Messiah 2. great Jewish human teacher who became a supernatural figure via gentile pagans 3. true Messiah, and either remaining Jewish as in Messianic Jewish Synagogues/Congregations or joining a Christian denomination with or with out sticking to their Jewish roots. In lite of my belief regarding the false ecumenical movement, #1 and 2 are a major concern to me.
I heard an interesting take on the Resurrection the other day from the Hal Lindsey Report which I’ve not had a chance to research yet, my list is getting longer not shorter as I study. Hal was ruminating on the burial cloth the Apostles found in the tomb. His take was the wrappings actually hardened forming a cocoon as it were leaving the outline of a body but no body. I’ve never heard that one before but according to him this would have been typical of first century Jewish burial practices.
It’s funny how the bible works both ways in bringing people to belief and providing proof to those that don’t believe. I learned this while discussing Christianity with Jews and atheists over the years. This covers a wide range from pagan/mythology resurrection stories, differing signs of the Resurrection given (eg. Jonah, third day, three days), people not recognizing Jesus Christ after His Resurrection. Not that people would be convinced anyway but it would be nice to have more information for believers. But then that’s probably the plan so I’ll have to wait till all is revealed.
Paul
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March 30, 2016 at 7:35 pm
Paul,
For sure the relationship between YHWH and Israel is a long-standing & complex one to say the least. Ultimately, it will culminate in Zechariah 12:1-14 with Isaiah 53 being Israel’s confession when Zechariah 12:10 comes to pass.
And as to The Shroud, it never ceases to amaze . . .
– Frank
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March 31, 2016 at 6:30 am
If I offer to show you the view from the Empire State Building then where on earth do you think I’ll take you? If I take you to Moscow, London, Beijing, Rio de Janeiro, Warsaw, Ammon or Sydney then I’ll be a foolish dunce at the very least or a conniving liar at worst. So, if I offer to show you the Resurrection of Messiah then I take you to Scripture; why do you balk?
The importance of history in the Gospel narrative:
“As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and as the Last He will take His stand on the earth.” (Job:19-25)
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March 31, 2016 at 9:13 am
Frank: You are comparing apples to orangutans and let me explain why.
If you offer to show me the view from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs house and you take me to the storybook to show me you would be a children’s author at best or delusional at worse..
Now if you told me to what Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven, how it actually happens and he described it like “….. the yeast a woman used in making bread. Even though she put only a little yeast in three measures of flour, it permeated every part of the dough.” When my mother made bread she would leave the worked dough alongside the stove and rework it next morning to rise yet a second time and that was only a small amount the needed to be kneaded.
And then if you told me that Jesus by his message and his life introduced a revolutionary idea into society to replace the revenge idea of justice: “eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth” I might ask you why it is taking so long after 2000 years? And if you explained that the whole world is one mega piece of dough that requires a lot longer to work its way through the dough batch compared to three measures of flour; why then, I could look and see the changes that have taken place in the world throughout history over the last 2000 years and the view would be available to any student of recorded history that the makeover IS IN TRANSFORMATION, albeit more slowly than we would have expected but the transformation is happening and worth noting that it has become exponential in the last few hundred years; that is, characterized by or being in an extremely rapid increase (as in size or extent).
Even though we still have madmen popping up like computer Ads here and there afflicting humanity, I see the leaven of heaven closing in on them and I am hopeful that it will be seen in OWR time through the Order Of Worldwide Reverence(OWR) for the Sanctity of Life that began with the amazing and astonishing preacher Jesus Christ.
Furthermore it can be revealed that scripture also says, during the exponential time, there will be rejoicing in heaven (within you) but woe to the inhabitants of earth”….For the (METAPHORIC) d-evil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Islamabad, Pakistan. On Easter Sunday, a crisp spring day, some of the city’s Christian population mingled with their Muslim neighbors, celebrating in a neighborhood park — taking their kids on rides or pushing them on swings. Then, the sound of tragedy.
Without warning, a blast tore through the park, killing indiscriminately.
Because of the innocent setting, an unusually high number of those injured were women and children. But the attack, claimed by a splinter group of the Pakistani Taliban, intentionally targeted Christians, the perpetrators say. At least 29 of the overall deaths were “children” enjoying an Easter weekend
At last in OWR minds we see (understand) what the “coming” entails……..
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March 31, 2016 at 4:23 pm
. . . Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, . . . . (Luke 24:1-53 NASB)
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March 31, 2016 at 8:50 pm
Frank,
I’ve not researched the Shroud as much as you and I agree there is some very strange things that appear to be going on. However, I’ve come to the conclusion it is not the burial cloth of Jesus Christ and for me it weakened not strengthened evidence of the Resurrection. I’ll just quickly explain:
The Shroud is one piece of cloth but the bible describes linen wrappings and a separate cloth for the head as per John 20: 1-9. This makes it impossible for me to believe that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ no matter what strange things appear to be going on.
Now for the part about him seeing and believing as per John 20: 1-9. If the body was covered with one piece of cloth that was tied then found lying in the place where the body was laid okay, but again, this would not fit the Shroud of Turin. However, it seems to fit better the hardened linen wrappings in the shape of the body but having no body inside scenario.
In one of the documentaries, they showed a copy of the Shroud displayed hanging upright top to bottom on a wooden stand showing the front and back not the typical way it is displayed these days. As a former RC, it just struck me immediately that this appears to be an icon of the crucified Christ. I agree with their conclusion: either it was commissioned as an icon or forged by someone as a relic.
Paul
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March 31, 2016 at 10:18 pm
Frank,
It was nice to hear Ravi again, I used to listen to him regularly on the radio Monday to Friday 17:00 – 17:15 Hrs but haven’t had the chance for some time. His #8 change the day of worship to Sunday caused me some concern. Many Christian leaders are softening their position on the RCC these days so I’m not surprised. I’ve also heard him going easy on the RCC when asked if they were preaching a false Gospel (or something like that) from an audience member some time ago.
Easter Sunday also weakened by belief in the Resurrection. Thank God I learned about the pagan roots of Christianity and I’ve been purging false doctrines for several years now one at a time. I remember the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ in conjunction with the biblical feast of Passover. On the afternoon of Nisan 14th I’ll be remembering the death of Jesus Christ and on Nisan 17th after sunset I’ll be remembering His Resurrection.
Paul
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April 1, 2016 at 9:32 am
Paul,
I have examined much in connection to the Shroud but I still haven’t drawn a final conclusion concerning whether it’s the actual burial wrap of Jesus/Yahshua of Nazareth. Surely it presents formidable challenges while quite frankly I suspect it’s doubtful we can ever say categorically who was truly buried in this Shroud. Unless of course, He Himself tells us. At this point it is a matter of understanding/trust. What I find most significant at present is that despite all the attempts made no one can replicate it in all its original aspects. The Shroud isn’t essential to one’s faith in Messiah. Yet, I’m certain that should it ever be authenticated it will put the fear/awe/reverence of God in many; like that day spoken of in Zechariah 12:10.
Indeed we do live in the Age of Deception. Consequently, we are to be always vigilant for false doctrine & false messiahs. That’s why I abide by the Scriptural reference to what constitutes religion: Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27); i.e., extend ourselves in charity to those in need [love our neighbors as ourselves] and remain free of the lusts of this world: the lusts of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh & the boastful pride of life [1 John 2:15-17; Ephesians 2:1-7; 1 Peter 4:1-2].
You mentioned, “But then that’s probably the plan so I’ll have to wait till all is revealed.” in post # 33. Messiah gives us important instructions to carry out along the way.
http://www.theberean.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.showBerean/BereanID/7705/bblver/NKJV/Luke-21-36.htm
Best Regards,
Frank
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April 1, 2016 at 4:42 pm
Frank,
I’m not concerned about people like you that have a good foundation or even thinking non-believers, the hot and cold so to speak. After many years of study I now feel confident although I remain vigilant. Before my studies, whether I was told or just assumed things to be fact I built up many false doctrines. So when hearing about pagan/mythological stories of resurrection, queen of heaven pagan spring festivals, fake relics of the cross, etc… I almost threw out God with the rest of the unbiblical doctrines. Thankfully I did not and started rebuilding on the foundation of Jesus Christ with biblical support. I’ve come to some unique conclusions but maintain the solid 5 principles of: Divinity of Jesus Christ, Virgin Birth, Blood Atonement, Resurrection and Second Coming.
Good advice for all to watch, believers or not. Watch our religious and political leaders of all kinds, many are trying to pull a fast one while we are distracted doing essential and non-essential things. We made a great error in putting our trust in them to perform their duties properly. Things are such a mess in Canada now I’m glad I have my Christian beliefs.
If only every Christian did as the Bereans, we still may have disagreements but what a blessing we’d be to the world.
Best Regards,
Paul
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April 2, 2016 at 8:17 am
Paul,
Amen, Brother, Amen.
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April 2, 2016 at 10:15 am
Concerning James 1:27 (NASB) – keep oneself unstained by the world.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/CGGBOOKLETS/k/452/World-Church-Laodiceanism.htm#top
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April 2, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Quotes by the famed Spiritual Giant, LTG:
“Being a pagan is just humanity without religion”.
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April 2, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Paul:
I would like to offer my take on the solidity of your 5 basic principles:
1. The only divinity of Jesus was the divine logic with which he lived and that is found within you.
2. There is no such thing as the virgin birth nor is there such a thing as a virgin conception other than what modern medical technique now delivers: In vitro fertilization. IVF is the process of fertilization by manually combining an egg and sperm in a laboratory dish, and then transferring the embryo to the uterus.
3. Blood atonement is an archaic law of Moses: Leviticus 17:11 – For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. Hebrews 10:8
First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”–though they were offered in accordance with the law.
AND “with all thy mind”, in Mark 12:30;
and with all the soul; with all the powers and faculties of it;
and with all the strength; a man has, or is given him; with all the vehemency and fervency of soul he is master of:
and to love his neighbor as himself; which are the two great commandments of the law: is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices; that is, more excellent in their nature, more acceptable to God, and more useful among men, than all the rituals of the ceremonial law, than any sacrifice whatever: for the two words here used, “burnt offerings and sacrifices”, include all offerings; as those which were wholly consumed upon the altar, and those of which part was given to the priests; and all sin offerings, meat offerings, and peace offerings, and whatever else. Blood sprinkling of goats and calves for sin atonement was a sacrificial offering used by the Scribes and Pharisees since the days of Moses as prescribed by Law and all the new age religionists did was swap and project the blood of goats and calves over onto Jesus in order to justify the veracity of the ancient “blood law” so that it became the blood of Jesus then, that atoned for sin by replacing the goat and calf blood because it was still the custom that the sprinkling of the blood by The High Priest on pain of death, each year, was allowed to go first to make a sacrifice for himself and then for the nation and that is why they continued holding to that Law. They just could not give up their centuries old tradition of dogma…………..
Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
Jesus speaking Matt 9:13: “…..go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’……
4. Resurrection. There is no resurrection from the dead but that the metaphorical cannot explain. As Lazarus rose from the dead, not because Lazarus was dead, he was not, but he rose from the place where dead men lay; same as Jesus. As to the resurrection of dead, Jesus said : Mk 12:26-27; Mt 22:32; Lk 20:38: And regarding the dead, whether or not they are raised, don’t you ever read the Bible? How God at the bush said to Moses, ‘I am—not was—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? The living God is God of the living, not the dead. You’re way, way off base.”
5. Second Coming: Paul if you are not it, then you missed the concept demonstrated by the life of Jesus. As the Father by him, now Jesus by you. He revealed in the First Coming how the Second Coming must be in you and everyone who hears (understands) his message will continue on that journey until the dough be leavened throughout the whole humanity on earth.
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April 2, 2016 at 6:53 pm
“I hate, I reject your festivals, nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them; and I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs; I will not even listen to the sound of your harps. But let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.” (Amos 5:21-24)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Amo/Amo_005.cfm?a=884021
And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.'” (Mark 7:6)
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April 2, 2016 at 10:20 pm
Amen Frank.
Spiritual Giant,
I’ve got to head out of town for a few days and was going to say hi but you beat me to it. But I’ll fire off a couple thoughts first to catch up.
Let me refresh you about where I’m coming from with a couple music quotes:
“When the truth is found to be lies An’ all the joy within you dies” and “Jesus take the wheel.” I found out a lot of what I believed was bs and just about chucked everything out the window but I couldn’t get away from Jesus Christ. A placebo? many would say yes, but for me it works.
I went back to square one and started over asking questions. Either God always was and always will be Or the universe always was and always will be? All this came about by intelligent design Or it’s a product of blind chance? Bible, fact or fiction? It’s a complicated book open to different interpretations because I don’t see how it can all be taken literally. I have a supernatural bias so I interpret it that way mostly but not all of the time.
I haven’t studied all religions, but my impression is everyone except for Christianity (as I understand it biblically) is man centered/works based. I say as I understand biblically because many Christian denominations are man centered/works based. I’ve been told this faith/grace based Gospel is a deception. If it is I’m in big trouble, because the more I study the more I realize how much I break the Law. Now if “it’s out of the blue and into the black” as many say then let’s “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.” For me the obvious choice is to be Christian, it helps me today and if it helps me after I die bonus. But don’t get me wrong, there are many things that we would agree are wrong with Christianity. Now if it’s there’s a reasonable hope that all man are saved, then who cares it’s all good.
1. So if there is a creator why wouldn’t He walk among us? I don’t believe a human has an immortal soul but Jesus Christ is different. I think the intangible part of a human being is our mind/personality as it were. It is my understanding that Jesus Christ pre-existed in spiritual form before the incarnation. I think of the fully human/fully divine as a spiritual possession as it were. Then for humans there is the born of the Spirit though.
2. Virgin birth no big deal today. I believe a embryo with the same DNA blueprint as Adam’s was supernaturally implanted in Mary’s womb in which the Son dwelt in. I started thinking about this after a preacher talked about the virgin birth following first test tube baby many years ago.
3. Many agree with you about the blood atonement and then add we all have to pay for our own sins. Yet many believe the New Testament indicates Jesus Christ paid for our sins with His death on the “cross.” Again, if this is it does it matter?
4. Without the supernatural the Resurrection is impossible. I believe in the supernatural but that is not the only reason I believe in the Resurrection. I thought about it a lot, either the Resurrection happened or it is the greatest hoax ever played, I don’t see any other possible explanation. If the revival in the tomb happened then the biblical account of the scourging/crucifixion and subsequent appearances after the Resurrection can not be accurate. Would the soldiers have removed the body as a joke risking their lives? Was the body taken/thrown away by friend or foe then later someone made up a story about the Resurrection to support a new religion? All of the New Testament is a fake? All I know is I’m left with the New Testament and I have to decide if it’s a fake or not, whether foolishness or wisdom.
5. I like your idea about “be the Second Coming” which I agree with but I also am waiting for the actual Second Coming, which I now think I may see in my lifetime. I can’t help but see the signs, it’s all about global problems and solutions and the coming together of mankind. Many are seeing this as a great thing but not myself and those like me. I’m seeing and hearing things I never thought I’d see especially from the RCC. As I’ve said lots of problems and Christians should be more Christ like but this mushy ecumenical stuff is going to end badly, I feel the pain in my neck already (beheading not burning or stoning thank God).
From what I’ve read, you are to nice of a guy to describe yourself as pagan. Of course, I guess it depends on what you mean by pagan. For me pagan is very bad, they are the ones who are going to be doing the beheading.
Paul
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April 3, 2016 at 1:26 pm
As the LORD/YHWH entreats us, “Come now, and let us reason together,” and think about the very question He Himself asks us, “But who do you say that I am?”
http://www.biblicaljesus.org/
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April 3, 2016 at 3:41 pm
Have a good trip Paul when you will beheading out 🙂
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April 3, 2016 at 3:45 pm
Cogent Scriptural Harmonization of the Gospels:
http://4gospels.info/
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April 4, 2016 at 6:44 pm
Reasonableness v. Presuppositional Bias:
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April 4, 2016 at 8:33 pm
Now grant it, I only listened to his introduction to know that an hour and 56 minute video is not something that will yield any knowledge and to use the name “Cold Case Christianity” trying to mimic forensic science….it’s lolable, n’est ce pas?
He is way off base to begin with because the Pharisees long held the belief of the resurrection but that belief had nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. So for him to get all fired up that the resurrection might be true is merely supporting the Pharisee belief but nothing to support their idea of a resurrection any more than Christianity has to support their belief.
It’s all make believe deceit by Hollywood’s religion of ghosts and goblins and paranormal activity for financial gain; witness the Exorcist, Poltergeist; any religious movie, for more of the same. Whenever you see Dracula or spirit phenomena in the movies, the priest and church, crucifix, cemetery and holy water are not far behind.
The Hollywood connection does not prove anything because it is all make believe and religion is fair game for the ridiculous ideas it unashamedly perpetuates and that Hollywood exposes for Box Office Hits.
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April 5, 2016 at 7:34 am
S Giant,
No it’s not. Any search for truth concerning God unguided by spiritual discernment from the Almighty is doomed to failure before it even starts. We must adhere to the whole counsel of God; [For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.] (1 Corinthians 2:11)
http://www.theberean.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.showBerean/BereanID/5806/bblver/NKJV/Genesis-1-26.htm
Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus/Yahshua answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, “I find no guilt in Him.” (John 18:37-38)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Jhn/Jhn_018.cfm?a=1015037
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April 5, 2016 at 8:17 am
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.” For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural/unspiritual man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised/examined. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. FOR WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ/Messiah. (1 Corinthians 2:6-16 NASB)
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April 5, 2016 at 8:49 pm
Prose does not a driver make.
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April 6, 2016 at 4:50 pm
Spiritual Giant,
I didn’t see your “when will you beheading out” post before I left. Thankfully I saw it when I returned and it was much appreciated. We left Sunday afternoon and returned Tuesday evening.
As one who doesn’t believe in the supernatural, wouldn’t the logical conclusion be the Resurrection is a hoax? It seems the saying: Lord, liar, lunatic, or legend/myth has an addition – great moral teacher. I’m hearing this more often but is that a possible option? It doesn’t seem to me Jesus Christ left us with that option.
I would agree there are some very insightfully things in the New Testament but according to atheists these predate Christianity. Also, according to a few Jews it’s naked Judaism (ie. Judaism stripped of man made traditions) and they want to take Jesus of Nazareth back as a great Jewish Rabbi. So then Jesus Christ becomes just a man who was a reformer who some turned into a God greasing the wheels for false unity.
The New Testament is filled with the supernatural IMO. If you take out the supernatural it can be summed up by the golden rule – “do unto others.” Of course even this rule isn’t universal because not everybody wants the same thing. So if the supernatural is added what else is added? Do we go by “The Jesus Seminar?” And like in a court of law, if some evidence is tainted, you can throw all or some of it out. Since we have the golden rule why not throw out the whole bible and just build a society on that? If we do what about my beliefs about God & right and wrong then? Not only would such a society limit me, It wouldn’t allow me to even speak my thoughts.
Jesus Christ as God incarnate is one of the greatest obstructions to religious unity. There are lots of other problems in Christianity but those seem to be falling away daily as the rush to unity gains momentum and stubborn people like me get older and die.
So if we take all the best case scenarios can the bible be accurate about events after the Resurrection if Jesus Christ didn’t die? Say we take the sign to mean 3 full days and nights in the tomb; scourging just damaged flesh not muscle: He was nailed in the fleshy part of the hands and feet without any bones broken; His side was pierced but not as deep as I imagined; friends helped with medical treatment. Wouldn’t it be impossible for Him to walk with the disciples to Emmaus then get back to Jerusalem even if by carriage and present Himself in the upper room? Wouldn’t the exchange with Thomas alone show He had to have died and be Resurrected or those verses are fabricated or greatly exaggerated? It seems to me only 2 choices, the Resurrection happened or it’s all a hoax.
Paul
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April 6, 2016 at 6:45 pm
Paul:
PREAMBLE:
Glad you have returned safe and sound. In your absence Spiritual Giant has been in metamorphosis(changing into the Inquisitor) in order to take you on a journey at a different level. The whole bible is full of the supernatural; it has been the Modus Operandi for all religions from the Great Mythologies to the more modern and current sets still operating around the globe. The Gods of supernaturalism were spawned and named since the great questions arose as sparks in the human mind. Why the planets as we know them today still retain their supernatural god names so nobody should kid themselves that supernaturalism is not the underlying mode of all religious games ever since. But Jesus was the catalyst that initiated the change from the supernatural to the natural and that is one for the first things that Jesus set out to accomplish to bring the real God out into the open where he could be seen by others in the person of who Jesus claimed to be as the Son of the Father within. Now that is the God of Jesus, defined as the Father within you.
This I believe was the very first notion, that the God that all men talked about was not somewhere in the northern sky or sitting on some planet controlling the galaxies Jesus attempted to dispel; the real God of Humans as I believe Jesus understood it is what I call the Divine Logic of the human being and who Jesus called the Father and where the Father resides IN HIS KINGDOM (within the spirit of man himself, Luke 17:20-21)
Accept for the Gospel of John almost in every instance in the other three Gospels Jesus referred to God as the Father and it was only John that most often refers to God as Jesus’ God most of the time and this I believe was deliberately edited into John’s text in order to link the supernatural God as defined by man and the God defined by Jesus as the Father within you as interchangeable to retain their supernatural bewitching but the God of Jesus as the Father within you and the supernatural Gods of men (without; that is outside of Man himself) and this difference is so totally far from each other that makes this first point so obvious to me.
NOw remember the second thing you need to understand is that Jesus trusted himself to man except two who were so close to Jesus that He could not divulge them to even the Disciples, and no more than he could trust his own brothers whose loud mouths were prepared to blabber Jesus whereabouts away to the Jews when they were hunting him at the festival to arrest and kill him if he went to the Festival with his brothers, so Jesus said he wasn’t going but late after his brothers left, Jesus went secretly in disguise to the Festival(john chptr 7). When Jesus met with two men in the story called the transfiguration. Matt 17:
Then they(Disciples, Peter, James and John)) realized that Moses and Elijah were also there in deep conversation with him.
4 Peter broke in, “Master, this is a great moment! What would you think if I built three memorials here on the mountain—one for you, one for Moses, one for Elijah?”
5 While he was going on like this, babbling, a light-radiant cloud enveloped them, and sounding from deep in the cloud a voice: “This is my Son, marked by my love, focus of my delight. Listen to him.”
6-8 When the disciples heard it, they fell flat on their faces, scared to death. But Jesus came over and touched them. “Don’t be afraid.” When they opened their eyes and looked around all they saw was Jesus, only Jesus.
9 Coming down the mountain, Jesus swore them to secrecy. “Don’t breathe a word of what you’ve seen. After the Son of Man is raised from the dead, you are free to talk.”
10 The disciples, meanwhile, were asking questions. “Why do the religion scholars say that Elijah has to come first?”
11-13 Jesus answered, “Elijah does come and get everything ready. I’m telling you, Elijah has already come but they didn’t know him when they saw him. They treated him like dirt, the same way they are about to treat the Son of Man.” That’s when the disciples realized that all along he had been talking about John the Baptizer.
BUt Jesus never told his disciples who the two men were nor did he object to their characterization of the two men as Moses and Elijah because he needed the information to be kept secret.
This ends the preamble to my dissertation and so for starters I offer the following from the Inquisitor:
Yes indeed, full of wonder,
Is the Seeker and wonderful to be,
Rewarded by knowledge,
To be set free.
I have queried the bible, its stories, apparent miracles, from Moses and the burning bush to the pillar of light and pillar of cloud, down through the ages. How prophets arose, were made, not born, the meanings of witty sayings, symbols and secret orders have been revealed to the Inquisitor.
How and why Philip was carried by the spirit to Azotus after baptizing the Eunuch, “When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus”…..; what the Mark on the hand and the Forehead tells about the meaning of 666; how the resurrection thwarted the Jewish plan to smite the shepherd and disperse the flock.
Jesus, an astonishing man who single handedly, enthralled the wealthy the rich and the powerful to his side and who performed events that could only be called miracles by uneducated masses of believers, the base prepared and made ready by the Pharisees to accept the supernatural instead of the natural as they were already hooked by Cleric deceit and who after the escape from the tomb, welcomed the new found system, not as a challenge to their own way of rule but as an opportunity to seize upon the moment and incorporate the new order unto themselves.
And so with their wealth, pomp, splendor and ceremony they were able to take control of this new Christian base and use it to their own end as they had always ruled unabated for ten thousand centuries before. They hijacked the Biggest Festival in Town and called it a celebration of the birth of baby Jesus and “Away in the Manger” played on the gullible heart strings of the souls the Pharisees afflicted.
And thus the hijacking continued uninterrupted accept by the few to whom the revelations of the writings, hidden since the foundation of the world, became known as the Inquisitors pursued relentlessly, the truth.
At last it has arrived.
Yes indeed, full of wonder,
Is the Seeker and wonderful to be,
Rewarded by knowledge,
To be set free.
Will this raise questions? Of course and I will answer all of them in due course. I actually think it should be a movie script but do away with the theatrics of Religion and Hollywood. The Final Truth After MM of Darkness.
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April 6, 2016 at 7:22 pm
Paul…..the fourth paragraph second line should read “Now remember the second thing you need to understand is that Jesus trusted himself to no man……”
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April 7, 2016 at 9:37 pm
Inquisitor,
Don’t take this the wrong way but your new handle is interesting. As a former RC it brings up bad thoughts, but it does make a statement, perhaps it’ll grow on me.
Yes I’ve got more questions than answers and the more I study the more questions I have.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth so let me just tell you what I think you are telling me about a few things: You do not believe in the supernatural. You believe Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. He was crucified but did not die at that time. Later on Jesus of Nazareth went from man to god. My guess is you follow the predominant belief Jesus of Nazareth historical figure got mixed up with Tammuz/Mithras or some sort of pagan religion?
Where I get confused is you seem to me to take the natural teaching of Jesus of Nazareth and discard the supernatural aspects of the New Testament.
I’ve known atheists to use scripture to question religious people. I’ve known Jews/other religions to use scripture to question Christianity. I’ve known different Christians arguing using scripture to prove or disprove a doctrine. You are very unique though in your use of scripture, although I’ve had a few back and forth discussions recently with a friend that reminds me of our previous ones. Don’t misunderstand, I’m just giving you a heads up, if you are taking the natural and rejecting the supernatural of the New Testament I’ll have a hard time following you. It’ll be like we are talking two different languages. It would be like me talking to a RC about why his/her religion isn’t Christian it’s pagan sun worship.
Jesus Christ taught us to pray to “our Father who art in heaven.” Doesn’t the bible say Jesus Christ returned to His Father in heaven? Isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to be within believers? If we pray “thy Kingdom come thy will be done” is the Kingdom here and is God’s will being done? Ultimately God’s will is going to be done but I think you get my meaning. You know the bible better than me so you understand why I believe what I believe even though you have a different interpretation.
Regarding the Resurrection specifically: why try and make the supernatural story natural? Why not just say it’s all made up? IMO, if you reject the supernatural the only logical conclusion is it’s a hoax.
Paul
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April 7, 2016 at 11:56 pm
There is nothing supernatural about the resurrection; that’s the clerical view which is the way religion operates….the hocus pocus… but it does not support the facts. The facts are plain; the evidence shows that Jesus survived the crucifixion and that the plan for the survival was made long before the arrest.
Now you have to ask yourself how did Jesus know when the arrest would happen which was right after the transfiguration I spoke of previously and who was the person responsible for pointing Jesus out to the constabulary when it did happen? If you can’t see what happened here then you are looking in the wrong places for the evidence.
I am not prepared to say the resurrection was a hoax; it was not designed to be such; however, it was designed so that Jesus could live and leave the land of the killers; yet, without neglecting the theatrics of the unexplained that would necessarily follow from the apparent resurrection.
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April 8, 2016 at 5:52 am
Paul, I agree with you totally. If you reject the supernatural then by definition you must reject the resurrection. There is nothing natural about resurrecting from the dead. To use the bible, of all things, to come up with a natural explanation is a gross and dishonest use of scripture. I have had this conversation with Leo long ago but to no avail. He will insist on natural explanations of everything in the scripture and in fact must re-write scripture to prove his point lest we be deceived by the “clergy”.
This is an old song that many have tuned out long ago….sorry Leo but your doctrine does not fly my friend.
Regards,
Naz
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April 8, 2016 at 8:10 am
Naz:
I reject the supernatural and it is as clear as the nose on your face and the knows in my head. As long as you are content to allow the hoaxes of the supernatural sway your common sense, that is your dilemma.
You still hold the belief that Prophets are people with special powers to foretell the future but the actual fact is that Prophets are simply people who go to school to study how to be a prophet and then graduate as people do in the ministry, how people become priests for example but you must assume that prophets are the result of divinity so you make them sort of drip religion like some holy stained glass window when in fact they are just ordinary folks like Donald Trump, David Copperfield and Joel Osteen.
You see Naz you have never had a conversation about the supernatural, you just accept it because church dogma dictates paranormal activity exists when for all the thousands of centuries, nobody has ever demonstrated that paranormal activity actually exists outside of religion, mythology and hollywood and the tricksters who have capitalized on believers for thousands of years. You remain unenlightened and cannot see the trees because the forest hides them from your sight.
What supernatural events happened in the New Testament apart from your belief that the dead rise up from the graves and appear to many, not only Jesus but scriptures says when the veil was rent the graves opened and dead people rose up…..and went home presumably.
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April 8, 2016 at 2:45 pm
Paul:
The problem with the entire Jesus scenario is that his followers missed the message about everything Jesus ever did or said with the supernatural which was the dominant belief of the Scribes and Pharisees. What the bible says does not necessarily mean that’s what Jesus said. For example I would like to know what supernaturalism is found in the New Testament that you mentioned. What supernatural feats are you talking about? Beggars pretending they were crippled so they did not have to work and were fed with handouts from the people like social assistance; that still goes on today. So if Jesus wanted to start ridding society of false narratives do you think he might have threatened to reveal that the cripples were not crippled or the blind were not blind and so to avoid being ostracized for their dupery the cripples and the blind claimed miraculous intervention by Jesus and they chose to get up and dance around as though miraculously cured or suddenly someone operating on the pretense of being blind from birth, rather than being found out, chose the more acceptable way out “It’s a miracle”, now they see.
Jesus did not believe that the God he talked about was an external being nor did he believe that the Kingdom was an external State. IT’s why he quite emphatically pointed that out when he told the Pharisees that the Kingdom does not come by observation, or see it’s out in then desert or in the inner chamber; in other words, in some physical space….NO! he said the Kingdom(where God resides), IS WITHIN YOU. The Father who dwelt in Jesus is the same Father who dwells in everybody, if you acknowledge that simple truth Jesus spoke. However the dogma that the society was indoctrinated by for thousands of years full of supernatural gibberish and wizardry permeated the mindset of the masses and carried right over into Christendom as we well know from stories about the Lady of Fatima and other apparitions. Charlatans love the supernatural and they in their time practice dupery like they invented the witching hour. This perpetuation goes on every time the Pope bestows sainthood on the dead because it requires miracles by the person who gets exalted in the Saintly Circle and so hearsay gains a foothold and miracles are whispered and then shouted for the world to confer its blessings.
Tell me please what supernatural events you believe Jesus performed or was performed in his name. Voices booming in a haze of smoke and mirrors as written about countless times throughout the bible? From Moses on down the line? This is my beloved son booms the voice to some….while others said it was only thunder rolling through the atmosphere.
I have never seen Jesus or his mother in a potato, in a piece of pizza or in a tree stump but lots of people have seen it apparently. I would love to know what supernatural events are supported by Jesus or that he even believed as the Pharisees about the resurrection of the dead, from the tombs of dead mens bones.
Jesus message was that the Father operates in human experience but who believes that? Not Christians certainly because they haven’t learned a thing about Jesus that is not akin to Pharisaical belief same as Paul in Acts, he was born and raised as a Pharisee and boasted about it at his own trial.
I found a most interesting quote that sums up institutional people be they Religious Institutions or Government institutions they talk the same talk but never walk, the walk they talk, but that they are born to repetitiveness rhetoric without change:
“The Budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance.”
– Cicero , 55 BC
So, evidently we’ve learned bugger all over the past 2,071 years. About Governance or the Message of Jesus.
Jesus identity never got “….mixed up with Tammuz/Mithras or some sort of pagan religion….” Jesus didn’t need some pagan religion to mix up the people, the people were already mixed up when Jesus began his campaign to free them from the bondage they were already in! Indoctrination by the Pharisees and the dominant pagan religion of the supernatural which they practiced, is revealed from start to finish in the Bible itself.
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April 8, 2016 at 3:30 pm
Inq,
You’re misinterpreting a poor translation. You need to consider, “in the midst of”.
http://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/kingdom-of-god/the-kingdom-of-god-is-within-you/
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April 8, 2016 at 6:25 pm
Frank:
I don’t buy the “in the midst” idea because the compilers of the text did not want to imagine that Jesus was actually referring to God residing in you…wow that would give the ego too much power to disobey their controlling tactics. And I can tell you why:
Please re-read the conversation Jesus had with Philip that leaves little doubt what he was referring to when he talked about the Father inhabiting a man’s humanity.
Here it is so you don’t have to actually look it up:
The conversation and the explanation that fully describes the indwelling of the Father within you; that is within your humanity, not in your midst.
“Show us the father said Philip, it sufficeth us”.
Said the Lord Jesus, “have I been so long time with you, hast thou been so long time with me and not known me Philip? He that has seen me has seen my father”.
We remind ourselves that for the very first time since Adam fell into sin(as the story goes to explain evil and suffering in the world) God in heaven could look at his son and see in him a man, a real man, could see himself, perfectly reflected. The word was made flesh, said John, and we beheld his glory. The reflected glory of his father, indwelling his humanity, manifesting himself, as God, through Jesus Christ as man. John 12:45: He that has seen me has seen him that sent me. So he was the truth about God. He interpreted deity. In the physical, visible body of his humanity he gave not only a physical, visible expression of his own invisible self but an invisible self intimately identified with his invisible father who indwelt his humanity in the person of the holy spirit and whom he allowed from within his human spirit gain total access to his human soul so that the father through the holy spirit could teach his mind, so control his emotions that the father in the son would direct his will and govern his behavior. So the Lord Jesus constantly testified: John 5: 19; John 5:30; “Without my father I can do nothing”.
Don’t you believe Philip that I am in my father and my father is in me? And the words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; the father who lives in me; he does the work; everything I do, he does; everything I say, he says; everything I am, he is. That’s why when you look at me you see him. Because you see, the Lord Jesus was not only the truth about God.
Now if ever there was a man who walked this earth who knew the truth about a man’s humanity and that relationship that must govern that man’s humanity, with God and God with him, that man was Jesus Christ. He just happened to be God who engineered man and who deliberately, though never himself never less than God stepped out of eternity into time and insisted of his own free volition, something he need never ever have done, being never ever less than God came into this world to behave as though he were never ever more than man. As opposed of course to man, who being never ever more than man, struts across this planet and behaves as though he were never ever less than God. That’s the essential difference. Jesus Christ never ever less than God behaved as though he were never ever more than man; man never ever more than man behaves as though he was never ever less than God.
The truth about God and the truth about man; in other words, the Lord Jesus, as our creator and the one who assumed the office of the man he made knew exactly what that relationship would be that would govern his humanity on forgiven
earth and his father, as God in heaven and deliberately submitted himself to those criteria of our humanity to the limitations that make man, man.
So here are two very simple points to establish: Jesus Christ in whom was seen the total glory of the father was the truth about God. But being the creator who made man, assuming his office, to fulfill his role was the truth about man. Now what is equally obvious is that the Lord Jesus was the truth about God because he was the truth about man because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God. In case I said that too fast, let me say it again. You see, all I’m doing is making the obvious, obvious; the tragedy is that obvious by and large is so obvious it ceases to be obvious. It’s the simplicity that is in Jesus. You see we are past masters at complicating the issue and turning our Christian faith into a complicated procedure when in point of fact, it derives from a person; it’s of him, through him, to him, all things to whom alone be glory. He’s the beginning and the end; he’s the author and the finisher of our faith; he’s the source and the sustenance; he’s the root and the fatness; Christ himself. And he came into this world to be the truth about God and the truth about man and he was the truth about God because he was the truth about man, because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God.
Remember? “Let us make man in our image and in our likeness and in the likeness of God made he him”. And when God who made man in his own absolute image to be his own perfect reflection, in whom all creation if it could, looking at man would know what God was like; when he looked at that man whom he made he said Good, Very Good. And looking at that man, saw himself. And for the first time in all human history since Adam believed the devil’s lie that a man could be man without God embarked upon the mad experiment of human self sufficiency, forfeited the divine presence.
In the absence of the holy spirit when the life went out and the light went out, and man was plunged into the abysmal darkness and death of spiritual destitution to become a nasty caricature, a big lie about God. For the first time in all history since then God’s incarnate son defined the God that dwells within you, walked on earth and fulfilled totally, the office of man; made himself available, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotion and will in such a way to his father by the indwelling holy spirit that being the truth about man, allowing his father to teach his mind, control his emotions and so direct his will and govern his behavior, that being the truth about man, he could not help but be the truth about God. And the father God could look at him and say: good, very good. My beloved son in whom I’m well pleased; I’ve got a man again a real man.
That is the Divine Logic of the essence of man as he has evolved to be or created to be, whatever suits your bent. So that all the wherewithal that makes man from the organs, the brain, the consciousness, the memory, the sensory perceptions, nervous system, immune system, blood system, lungs, distribution of food, digestion excretions, filter the man. And using discretion and choices we discover that the physical body is designed so perfectly that the totality of the design is available to the man who is available to all of his design totality if he lets all the factors available to be there for the good of man, the Son, and all the factors within form the Father.
That is the Divine Logic that Jesus was trying to tell Philip and everybody who would listen to his message without the supernatural influence of pagan wishy washy religion that worshipped molten golden calves, the stars and the planets and whatever nonsense they could muster to prove themselves smarter than the average man and to argue with them was taking your life in your own hand and we see that same dogma relentlessly manifesting itself even in this so called enlightened age of modernity. So you see Frank, you will never see this Kingdom by observation because is you cannot understand what is operating inside you, then that Kingdom that the prayer of Jesus said Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,,,,within you; that heaven can be manifested by bringing wonderful vision within to light so they can be seen and benefit you and all others like medical delivery, technologies, mobility, nano technology, clean water for everybody, enough food, diseases eliminated and so on and so forth and we also see these wonderful visions of the Kingdom within manifesting around the world as well as the bitterness that has yet to understand the sanctity of life and love and Divine Logic for we are not masters of our creation or evolution but forces we have yet to understand and know but that too is parr of our continuing evolution/creation.
Now isn’t that concept a more perfect union to envision as natural progression instead of bowing and bobbing and henpecking and chanting and finger beading, genuflecting, signing the cross, ritualized prayers, the way of the cross. These supernatural pseudo placebos will never bring about anything more that the repetition they were meant to indoctrinate by, like Pavlov’s dog.
There is no religion more pagan than one based on a sands foundation belief of supernaturalfragilisticexpialidocious, instead of a rock solid foundation of knowledge that sets you free with irrefutable understanding.
Amen, and I am unanimous with Jesus in that.
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April 8, 2016 at 6:31 pm
Be still God said; I want you to know something. I’m God.
And if you’re prepared to pause long enough and know that I AM God .
And to recognize where I live, in you. Anything else you need to know?
For if God be for you who can be against you? If only we’d learn to take one step of every moment of every day on the simple assumption that he’s God, lives where he does, sharing his life with us on earth on the way to heaven then we truly will discover that everything that threatens to be over our head is already under his feet. Nothing more complicated about the Christian life than that. One thing we need to learn is simply to credit God as God with being big enough for the job. And give him the opportunity to demonstrate.
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April 8, 2016 at 6:55 pm
MIRACLE CURE OF CRIPPLE CAIGHT ON CAMERA:
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April 10, 2016 at 3:37 pm
Naz,
I can see the natural argument for cases such as Lazarus, although I believe he also was supernaturally brought back to life. But these cases did not have the physical trauma as we are told took place during the scourging/crucifixion.
Based on biblical description of the scourging/crucifixion and subsequent events following the Resurrection the natural argument doesn’t apply in this case.
I’m sure you are aware, but my impression is this is all about the coming false religion, don’t forget Islam claims Jesus Christ didn’t die on the cross. As I understand they have a few different scenarios. Keep an eye on how the RCC is sucking up to Islam these days.
Regards,
Paul
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April 10, 2016 at 4:38 pm
Inquisitor,
You didn’t seem to address what I thought was my main point, perhaps I talked about to many different things? Either a supernatural event occurred or the Resurrection is a hoax, this is the only logical conclusion. If you have another logical option let me know?
How could someone survive the scourging/crucifixion as described in the bible then walk around 3 days later like nothing happened? It’s not just by the tomb, He also walked with the disciples on the road to Emmaus. “Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.” This isn’t natural, you don’t believe in the supernatural, so what’s up?
Does it trouble you Islam also rejects the Resurrection? It troubles me.
Paul
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April 11, 2016 at 9:02 am
Paul:
The resurrection was a hoax, if that is the term you want to use to describe the missing body, but I would rather call it a well kept SECRET and that secret was known only to three people, Jesus being one of them. It was a planned secret.
Hoax implies: bamboozle, deceit, frame, hoodwink, gull, swindle; which is why you use that term. Whereas secret implies: covert, classified, confidential, private, undisclosed, unknown. It is with all due respect that I refer to the pseudo-resurrection not as a hoax but rather as a confidential matter of life and death.
I am not concerned that Islam does not believe in the resurrection but I hardly think it is because they don’t believe in the supernatural since it also claims that Mohammed went to heaven on a winged horse. “Al-Burāq (Arabic: البُراق al-Burāq “lightning”) is a steed in Islamic mythology, a creature from the heavens that transported the prophets. Most notably Buraq carried the Islamic prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Jerusalem and back during the Isra and Mi’raj or “Night Journey”, as recounted in hadith literature.”
About your claim that Jesus was walking around three days later after the scourging/crucifixion is simply not an accurate interpretation unless you read between the lines of: “…….and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus……” Of course it was not unusual for Jesus to disguise himself so reading a little later he says her name “Mary” and then she recognizes his voice, I suppose but then what did the “at-first-supposed-gardner” say? Well read between the lines again and he says “…..don’t touch me….” maybe he was still healing and in a lot of pain perhaps or maybe he simply did not want her to draw attention to the situation by clinging to him and told her to tell the others that he will “…ascend unto my Father…..”
On the road to Emmaus:
Does it seem odd to you that neither of the two disciples recognized Jesus? Was he wearing a head bandage perhaps or change his voice? It was only after the stranger vanished did they get the bright idea that it must have been Jesus: “….And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them……” now it says they rushed back to Jerusalem the same hour, but I doubt they went back the same hour, as it was already night and it’s unlikely they would take the 1 to 1 1/2 hour journey in the dark of night. In any case they would have shown up the next day and met the eleven(Matthias also had already been appointed to replace Judas so one could reasonably assume that the eleven plus Mathias were there as well as “them that were with them….”, the others) in their safe house. One of the two disciples exclaimed that Jesus appeared to Simon (Peter) but that would be another stretch because if “on Easter Sunday he (Simon) is the first one of the disciples to see Jesus and what was said by Jesus or by Peter or under what circumstances they met is not recorded in the Bible. Unless he was the unnamed disciple walking with Cleopas; some think it could have been Mary Magdalene.
Then Jesus appearance in their midst:
“But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a (supernatural) ghost.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a (supernatural) ghost hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.”
It was another 8 days before Jesus appeared to “the eleven” again at which time Thomas was with them and felt the healed over scars on his hands, feet and side.
In fact the bible indicates that it was over a period of 40 days that Jesus appeared at least 10 times and talked and instructed them as he was preparing to depart (ascend, as Jesus put it) to the Father. However, it is worth noting that: “The number 40 often has a non-literal meaning in the Bible. It is a number that means a relatively long period of time, just as “three” is a number signifying a relatively short period of time. …”Just to be clear about numbers. And that Jesus appeared to 500…I do not accept that either. Seeing as how Jesus did not entrust himself to no man (except the two regarding the secret resurrection) it is most improbable that Jesus would have revealed himself to so many people so as to jeopardize his life a second time.
As for literal translations, have you ever wondered why Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him after the tomb was sealed with the large tons-heavy stone? The stone that nobody knows how it rolled away, even though the tomb was guarded by a watch of Roman soldiers?
OMG it must be the supernatural.
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April 11, 2016 at 1:39 pm
Inquisitor,
I wish I had your faith.
Most of the events of which I was talking about occurred on what I would call Sunday. I couldn’t walk that much with a pebble in my sandal. The stick your hand in my side of course happened “after eight days.”
So Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t die and rides off into the sunset? Or do you also believe in the Ascension? Then lets His friends believe He rose from the dead and sends them off to be persecuted/murdered? Your Jesus of Nazareth sounds more like a zero than hero to me.
Hoax is the right word if the Resurrection did not occur.
Paul
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April 11, 2016 at 2:19 pm
Paul, just to echo your thoughts, if Leo’s narrative of the events of the crucifixion and subsequent hidden escape of Jesus were true, then Jesus would be the most despicable human being that ever walked on the face of the earth.
The biblical account of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus leaves no room for anyone, layman or scholar, to merely paint Jesus as some brilliant individual that had wisdom in matters pertaining to this life.
Jesus of Nazareth is either the Son of God and ruler of the Universe, or He is the greatest liar and deceiver that the world has ever seen and surely not one one to be respected or admired to any degree.
Naz
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April 11, 2016 at 5:10 pm
Paul:
You need some details according to your belief that Jesus did not ride off into the sunset so please bear with me as there is no easy way to try and undo the discord that has been sown by the religious institution throughout the world from the Myths of the past. So here goes but it’s not exactly a short read.
I rejoice daily that I do not have your faith and that leaves me to use common sense and natural explanations for supernatural and tired expressions of theological dogma, exactly what Jesus came to set the downtrodden and captives, free from.
THE SECULAR STORY WITH SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES DESCRIBE THE EGO TRIPPING THAT PLANNED THE DEMISE OF CLERGY’S NEMESIS: not the supernatural Jesus of Naz; BUT THE NATURAL, COMMON SENSE JESUS, OF NAZARETH.
Some people blog like a Ferrari but by lacing it with supernatural nuts and bolts, end up with the Model T of antiquity.
ON THE ASCENSION?
Once upon a time an army of strong men entered the city. Stronger than the defenders, the invading army surrounded the forces protecting it, forced the military into surrendering to the invader’s superior strength, captured the city and began a governance resented by the captive population, the religious non-civilization.
There was a man who did not accept the strength of subjugation neither by the tyranny of religion or the tyranny of brutal early regimes but was hounded by the town’s bullies who themselves were coerced into siding with the invaders in exchange for preferential treatment, wealth, security and freedom to exercise their virtual police authority to quell any signs of dissension and civil unrest in the population.
The Bullies posted a reward for the capture and arrest of their Adversary(AD). The Bullies, also known as the Pulpit Bullies because of the weekly meetings that forced the people to attend, were finally successful with their reward offering and arrested the man they had been hunting for almost three years.
The PB’s brought AD before the captor’s high court and demanded his execution for sedition. After much wrangling, negotiations and incessant calls for the death penalty by the PB’s the captor’s capitulated and agreed to the PB’s demands. AD was sentenced to the gallows.
Nico spoke up: John 7:50 Nicodemus (he who came to Him before, being one of them) said to them, 51″Our Law does not judge a man unless it first hears from him and knows what he is doing, does it?” 52They screamed in rage at him, “You are not also from Galilee, are you? Search, and see that no prophet arises out of Galilee.”
Now the common law for seditionists among the PB’s relied on the ancient philosophy mindset that states “Smite the Shepherd and his Sheep will Disperse”. And with that the death warrant of their anti- religious adversary was signed, secured, consented to and committed to by 69 of the 71 Ruling Council Members of the Sanhedrin.
Nevertheless there were two members in the PB who privately supported AD because they believed Jesus was a good man whose simple mission was to bring compassion to the downtrodden, food banks to the hungry, Obamacare (metaphorically) for the sick, goods and services for the poor and reality education for the disillusioned.
Thanks to the two wealthy friends; albeit, secret friends, knowing several year’s in advance what their colleagues had in mind after the eventual capture, forewarned AD and suggested that when the day inevitably came, they must be prepared with a plan to intervene in the gallows process and not allow a decent, innocent man to die for the sins of the PB’s self-serving dogma. Nico and Joe set their plans: Prep a tomb with escape tunnel by an ingenius feat of engineering that would erase any traces of the escape tunnel and cause the stone to roll away from the tomb entrance on its own as if by magic, like a miracle.(figures 1, 2, and 3.)
Beforehand however there was the dangerous crucifixion process that would need to be mitigated, possibly by using a Pedanius Dioscorides soporific sponge to induce general anesthesia. (“…[sleeping potions such as opium or mandragora are applied] to such [people] as shall be cut, or cauterised …. For they do not apprehend the pain because they are overborn [overcome] with dead sleep …. But used too much they make men speechless.”
Pedanius Dioscorides
Nico and Joe executed their burial plan. Joe had a private audience with Pilate who authorized Joe to take possession of AD’s body for burial. The Stone was rolled in place to secure the entrance. After dark Nico and Joe retrieved the body and rushed out of the tomb. In the early dawn with AD having been moved to the “Safe House”, revived and medicated, the stealthy duo returned to activate the engineering design that would cover their tracks and the healing process began to nurse AD back to vitality.
When AD was healed from his beatings he met with his friends who advised him that they only way for him to remain safe from another attack was to leave the country. AD agreed. Of course he bade his close friends and companions goodbye but his closest partner, his soul mate and love of his life would travel with him to a new home, along with a trusted support staff, at the end of the long journey ahead.
The day of departure arrived and with the morning sun rising, the dry dusty road invited the entourage of horses, donkeys and wagon wheels to the winding trail. With waves, tears and goodbyes the entourage stirred the desert dust to life rising in the air as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher as they raced up the hill and to the horizon. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon.
………..as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher as they raced up the hill and to the horizon. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon………….into a new world, a new country and the Impact of Truth that testified against the religious world.
John 7:7,8 “The world has nothing against you, but it’s up in arms against me. It’s against me because I expose the evil behind its pretensions. You go ahead, go to the supernatural party. Don’t wait for me. I’m not ready. It’s not the party of truth.”
Paul & Naz:
With all due respect you have never read the real story; my story follows the scriptural story, maybe you just need to read it from ancient eyes but you need to read it and so must every Christian who professes to follow Jesus. Sure it’s a challenge.
Matt 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Matt 25-26 Abruptly Jesus broke into thanks: “Thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. You’ve concealed your ways from sophisticates and know-it-alls, but spelled them out clearly to ordinary people. Yes, Father, that’s the way you like to work.” 27 Jesus resumed talking to the people, but now tenderly. “The Father has given me all these things to do and say. This is a unique Father-Son operation, coming out of Father and Son intimacies and knowledge. No one knows the Son the way the Father does, nor the Father the way the Son does. But I’m not keeping it to myself; I’m ready to go over it line by line with anyone willing to listen.
Matt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. 15 But when Jesus knew it,(from Nico & Joe, his secret disciples, the rulers on the inside who were on his side) he withdrew himself from thence:
Luke 11:52 “You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You took the key of knowledge, but instead of unlocking doors, you locked them. You won’t go in yourself, and won’t let anyone else in either.” 53-54 As soon as Jesus left the table, the religion scholars and Pharisees went into a rage. They went over and over everything he said, plotting how they could trap him in something from his own mouth
Why Tell Stories?
Matt 13:10 The disciples asked, “Why do you tell stories?” 11-15 He replied, “Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears. That’s why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they’re blue in the face and not get it. I don’t want Isaiah’s forecast repeated all over again:
Your ears are open but you don’t hear a thing.
Your eyes are awake but you don’t see a thing.
The people are blockheads!
They stick their fingers in their ears
so they won’t have to listen;
They screw their eyes shut
so they won’t have to look,
so they won’t have to deal with me face-to-face
and let me heal them.
16-17 “But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.
Whoever Becomes Simple Again
Matt 18:3 Jesus said, “I’m telling you, once and for all, that unless you return to square one and start over like children, you’re not even going to get a look at the kingdom, let alone get in. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matt 26: 17 the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare your Passover meal?”
18-19 He said, “Enter the city. Go up to a certain man (Joe’s Place) and say, ‘The Teacher says, My time is near. I and my disciples plan to celebrate the Passover meal at your house.’” The disciples followed Jesus’ instructions to the letter, and prepared the Passover meal.
John 11: 47,48 The high priests and Pharisees called a meeting of the Jewish ruling body. “What do we do now?” they asked. “This man keeps on doing things, creating God-signs. If we let him go on, pretty soon everyone will be believing in him and the Romans will come and remove what little power and privilege we still have.”
49-52 Then one of them—it was Caiaphas, the designated Chief Priest that year—spoke up, “Don’t you know anything? Can’t you see that it’s to our advantage that one man dies for the people rather than the whole nation be destroyed?” He didn’t say this of his own accord, but as Chief Priest that year he unwittingly prophesied that Jesus was about to die sacrificially for the nation, and not only for the nation but so that all God’s exile-scattered children might be gathered together into one people.
53-54 From that day on, they plotted to kill him. So Jesus no longer went out in public among the Jews. He withdrew into the country bordering the desert to a town called Ephraim and secluded himself there with his disciples.
Gethsemane
(Having heard from Nico and Joe about Judas and the appointed time of betrayal) John 18 Jesus, left with his disciples and crossed over the brook Kidron at a place where there was a garden. He and his disciples entered it. 2 Judas, his betrayer, knew the place because Jesus and his disciples went there often.
Matt 26:31-32 Then Jesus told them, “Before the night’s over, you’re going to fall to pieces because of what happens to me. There is a Scripture that says,
I’ll strike the shepherd;
helter-skelter the sheep will be scattered.
Zechariah 13 “On the Big Day,( WHEN YOUR EYES (mind and heart, OPEN) a fountain will be opened for scrubbing their stained and soiled lives clean.
2-3 “On the Big Day,….I will wipe out the store-bought gods, erase their names from memory. People will forget they ever heard of them. And I’ll get rid of the prophets who polluted the air with their diseased words. If anyone dares persist in spreading diseased, polluting words, his very own parents will step in and say, ‘That’s it! You’re finished! Your lies about God put everyone in danger………
4-6 “On the Big Day, the lying prophets will be publicly exposed and humiliated. Then they’ll wish they’d never swindled people with their ‘visions.’ No more masquerading in prophet clothes. But they’ll deny they’ve even heard of such things: ‘Me, a prophet? Not me. I’m a farmer—grew up on the farm.’ And if someone says, ‘And so where did you get that black eye?’ they’ll say, ‘I ran into a door at a friend’s house.’
Luke 12:4-5 “I’m speaking to you as dear friends. Don’t be bluffed into silence or insincerity by the threats of religious bullies.
Luke 23 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar……
Israel was under Roman rule at the time of Jesus. The leaders of Israel had gotten their position or held their position of rulership in the hierarchy (which is the way that Rome operated) by putting themselves under Roman authority. They were afraid of losing their place—AS they state it here–they realized that the Romans would take away their place–their position–their right to rule over others–which is what they had under Roman control. The Pharisees AKA the Pulpit Bullies) were rulers by the authority of Rome, and the proof of this is that they were worried about losing their nation, or the rule of it, as stated in John 11.
The Crucifixion
Matt 27: 47-49 Some bystanders who heard him said, “He’s calling for Elijah.” One of them ran and got a “soporific sponge” (“sleep sponge”) soaked in sour wine and lifted it on a stick so he could drink. The others joked, “Don’t be in such a hurry. Let’s see if Elijah comes and saves him.”
50 But Jesus, again crying out loudly, breathed his last (and went unconscious)
The Tomb
Matt 27:57-61 Late in the afternoon a wealthy man from Arimathea, a disciple of Jesus, arrived. His name was Joseph. He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Pilate granted his request. Joseph took the body and wrapped it in clean linens, put it in his own tomb, a new tomb only recently cut into the rock, and rolled a large stone across the entrance.
Matt 28: 11-15 Meanwhile, the guards had scattered, but a few of them went into the city and told the high priests everything that had happened. They called a meeting of the religious leaders and came up with a plan: They took a large sum of money and gave it to the soldiers, bribing them to say, “His disciples came in the night and stole the body while we were sleeping.” They assured them, “If the governor hears about your sleeping on duty, we will make sure you don’t get blamed.” The soldiers took the bribe and did as they were told. That story, cooked up in the Jewish High Council, is still going around.
John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39 And there came also Nicodemus,(also a disciple secretly) which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Thus, once the surgeon implants the new graft ideas, to supplant the indoctrinated dogmatized religion of ancient hoaxes, the issue of rejection—the unforgiving nemesis of most transplant attempts—occurs.
Which is exactly why the clergy went out of their way to kill Jesus because of his indictment and destruction of the organized religious ritual of sacrifices and offerings based on supernatural magic.
Jesus tried to set free from belief with knowledge, the downtrodden, the oppressed, the captive, the poor, recovery of sight for the blind for they were all walking in the ditch, forced to stumble along and on pain of death, to follow. Thereby the Son proclaims the favorable year of the Lord, revealing the true Lord, the Father living within the sons and daughters of his domain, within their humanity.
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April 12, 2016 at 7:11 am
It’s actually so plain & simple. If you believe in Christ/Messiah then you believe He died for our sins according to the Scriptures [1 CORINTHIANS 15:1-8]. If you don’t believe in Him then you follow fables like some do. Afterall, He Himself reveals to us through His disciple John: When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” (REVELATION 1:17-18)
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April 12, 2016 at 8:51 am
Amen Frank !
Naz
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April 12, 2016 at 10:47 am
Frank:
When two statements contradict each other, only one can be true.
1. Your statement: “If you believe in Christ/Messiah then you believe He died for our sins according to the Scriptures….” is a contradiction.
That cannot be true and here’s why: If he died for our sins, sin would be abolished and it is not.
2. “I believe in Christ/Messiah but I do not believe that he died for our sins. I believe he was crucified “because” of the sins of men who lived as rulers at that time.” is a contradiction.
Therefore Christ was crucified because of the sins of men living at the time, and sins remain still; then,
Since only one statement can be true; that is my statement because sin remains.
Furthermore, your statement cannot be true because it is a statement, not of yourself, but of somebody else.
Accordingly your statement is false.
Divine Logic.
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April 12, 2016 at 10:51 am
Nice comment Naz.
Nice but useless.
LeoTheGreater
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April 12, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Amen Naz and Frank.
Inquisitor,
There are some pretty big spaces between those lines in your bible.
Although we seldom agree, I find your comments very interesting for a couple of reasons but in this case you make no sense to me and I believe your position is spiritually dangerous.
You hit me with a bunch of stuff, I will only respond to a few things pretending to be some one who does not believe in the supernatural:
Why don’t you think Jesus of Nazareth was getting rid of the phony cripples, blind, lepers, etc… to cut down on the competition? Getting rid of those phonies would mean more money for him and his accomplishes will giving him credibility as a healer/man of God. If he had credibility as a healer/man of God he could cash in with the rich people.
An observant person could’ve watched the beggars as he taught and noticed tell tale signs, blind guy watching pretty girl or looking at coin as it fell into his container, lame guy moving his toes, notice leper having nice skin when his sleeve was pulled back. Some of his accomplishes could’ve given the servant of rich person a drug to make them sick or appear dead then Jesus of Nazareth shows up with the anti-dote and the sick are cured/dead raised and then a nice big fat donation in gratitude. Couldn’t a good magician make it appear he changed water into wine? Maybe his whole family were con artists and the rift in the family was Jesus was not cutting them in on the proceeds?
Jesus of Nazareth could’ve walked on a raft and made it appear like he was walking on water. Peter could’ve walked on the same raft then fell off into the water where Jesus pulled him up. Or the whole story could be made up?
So with the revival of Lazarus, was Lazarus in on it? Jesus of Nazareth said plainly, “Lazarus is dead.” Or did someone slip something to Lazarus to make him appear dead? Pretty convenient time for Jesus of Nazareth to show up? Or it could be a made up story?
The stone being rolled away supernatural no, you just have to read between the lines. Jesus of Nazareth woke up in the tomb was sacred or hooped up on some drug Nicodemus gave him and rolled away the stone by himself. Just like those stories you hear about a mother lifting a car off of her child. Or the accomplishes used some smoke bombs and a pretend ghost to scare the guards away then they removed the stone and stole the body. Or the guards were told after 3 days you can leave and accomplishes came and rolled the stone away and stole the body. Or some one made the whole story up to keep the scam going?
Maybe some people didn’t recognize Jesus after the Resurrection because it wasn’t him it was an imposter? I’d tell Mary to stay away or she’ll get a good look at me. It’s my glorified body that’s why it looks different is what he could tell others later. Maybe one of Mary’s other sons? Maybe an accomplish? You don’t notice a guy wrapped up with bandages? Have you every puled a muscle in your back? I could barely walk for days upright and could only hobble along. How could a person that had that trauma walk period let alone keep up with the other disciples and talk? The disciples would be saying “are you okay?” Or the whole story could be made up?
In Acts we have Peter saying Jesus was Resurrected, accomplish or stooge? In Acts 5: 1-11 the couple holds back cash from the sale of their land and they die, very interesting if you don’t believe in the Resurrection.
The Apostle Paul must’ve heard of the scam and wanted in.
Like all scams it took on a life of it’s own and the powers to be tried to destroy it and replace it with their own racket the RCC.
If no Resurrection how about the numerous people who were brutally murdered for believing in it?
If Jesus of Nazareth did not die on the cross but survived, he is one of the most detestable of human being and the bible is fake.
Paul
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April 13, 2016 at 1:44 pm
Paul:
Just a few points to note in response to your Post 78:
Your sarcasm is much too simplistic and your naivety beneath you and your ability to reason. Yet I still give your intelligence more credit that your evaluation warrants.
About the escape from the tomb, remember where I said “it was an engineering feat”. You will have to read the book or see the movie because intellectual property is too valuable, without the IP protections needed, to reveal how the event took place entirely; suffice it to say there was an escape tunnel hewn in the tomb effected over the two years Joseph needed to prepare the tomb.
Naz said: “then Jesus would be the most despicable human being that ever walked on the face of the earth.”
Paul said: “he is one of the most detestable of human being and the bible is fake.”
You, Paul, and Naz are both on the same page but I think Frank is not at the same level.
Furthermore it is worth noting that the Pharisees accused Jesus in like manner because they too were believers in dead men resurrecting and Jesus was against everything they stood for and why John 7 says: 7 The (religious) world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
19 Why do you seek to kill Me?”
20 The people answered and said, “You have a demon. Who is seeking to kill You?”
1. “After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
Now maybe you would like to venture how Jesus knew that the Jews were plotting to kill him, who would betray him, the price and when and where they were planning to arrest him? It was right after the story about the transfiguration. And do you know who the two men that Jesus met on the mountain(high hill) were? Is any of this supernatural?
As to Jesus being guided by money is rather beneath your reasoning prowess so I believe you are speaking more to appease and solidify Naz’s support here than to me as you are both reading the same page.
Nevertheless here is a quick refutation of your naive scenario about Jesus and his accomplices and who the operatives who are guided by the deceit of the mark, name and number of the beast: money. Ask yourself what is the richest Institution in the world, outside of government, and which got their wealth by devouring widows’ estates.
Educating the World that the Supernatural and God Myths associated with it do not exist and never did exist and educating Supernatural’s children, Religions of the World, that all religions derive from a person, they are False and all Religions’ Clergy pursue pence and power for themselves and the Mother Church they represent. (Of course there are good people within the church but they are good people not because of the church but in spite of the church) The sooner the world understands that there are only god MYTHS, about 45,000 is one figure I have heard of the number of Gods created since the year dot, the sooner they will know the biggest bunch of bananas in the Deceit Tree.
The forbidden fruit is the Tree of Deceit; it was the same fruit that Jesus thought about the prospects of, when he was alone in the desert,(the so called temptations) when he thought he could have everything too if only, if only he was to eat the forbidden fruit and become another Benny Hin, another Pharisee using deceit to dupe the sincere unsuspecting masses of the downtrodden: You remember it?
Luke 4:5-7
Then, taking Himself up on a high mountain, Jesus surveyed all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And thought to himself, “All this authority I could have, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and if I give in to using deceit like all the rest of the banana bunches use it. 7 If I follow deceit, use it, worship it, Everything I now survey can be mine.” But Jesus thought of that wise Proverb of Socrates: “To thine own self be True.”
AND He rejected deceit! that was the stock in trade of the Scribes and Pharisees, the clergy and the Mother Church.
Lest anyone afflicted with Academia scramble to pounce.
Socrates (know thyself) and Shakespeare (to thine own self be true) were onto to something way back then. Shakespeare summarized Socrates thusly: “Know thyself….and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.” Jesus knew he was a microcosm of the whole human race, his Essence was, EVERYMAN; i.e., humanity. He could not eat the Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Deceit. And it was with this same fervor that he made a knotted whip out of rope and leather and thrashed the cattle in the barnyard market at the entrance to the Temple stampeding the oxen through the market upsetting the tables of the money changers and merchants that was a good source of income for the clergy as everybody wanted in on the money game the crowds were sure to practice at the Temple Complex. But the Temple entrance became a dung heap of animal excrement and human greed.
John 2: 13-14 When the Passover Feast, celebrated each spring by the Jews, was about to take place, Jesus traveled up to Jerusalem. He found the Temple teeming with people selling cattle and sheep and doves. The loan sharks were also there in full strength.
15-17 Jesus put together a whip out of strips of leather and chased them out of the Temple, stampeding the sheep and cattle, upending the tables of the loan sharks, spilling coins left and right. He told the dove merchants, “Get your things out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a shopping mall!” That’s when his disciples remembered the Scripture, “Zeal for your house consumes me.” Psalms 69:9 “Passion for your house has consumed me, and the insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.”
Finally Paul, you said “If Jesus of Nazareth did not die on the cross but survived, he is one of the most detestable of human being and the bible is fake.”
and I say:
Self preservation is a practical, natural human reflex and if you could read the bible without the myopia of supernaturalism that prevents you from interpreting the bible perfectly, you would know that what you are saying is accusing Jesus of blasphemy just as the Pharisees did because they too could not interpret the bible without the supernatural magic they were prone to use deceitfully: “…… “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” Luke 11:52
There is no key to knowledge by supernaturalism. I know it’s hard to let go of an addiction but please, Paul, get it together for the love of Christ. You are not stupid…………
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April 13, 2016 at 3:25 pm
Inq,
Since by your conclusion as expressed in statement 2. of your post # 76 you demonstrate utter misdirection concerning hamartiology & Messiah providing propitiation/reconciliation/atonement/ for the sins of the world consider the following:
http://ichthys.com/3B-Hamartio.htm
http://www.theopedia.com/propitiation
– Frank
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April 13, 2016 at 9:44 pm
Frank: Please!
All you are doing is expressing church dogma; it has nothing to do with Jesus/ Messiah.
Did Jesus ever even hint at the dogma of religious rhetoric?
On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the “mercy-seat,” and so made propitiation. All this does is try to extol the life of Jesus to the rituals of Pharisaical nonsense.
The reality is that sacrifices and offering you have not desired…we talked about this very thing just days ago. Give it up Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with the ancient dogma except to dispel the notion that the ancient rituals had anything whatsoever in common with the real reason for humanity; to love the essence of man (God within) and his neighbor as himself….forget the atonement by blood sprinkling of goats and sheep and cattle and projecting that stupidity onto Jesus, a real man of common sense who hated everything the church stood for.
You may think you are expressing the reason for Jesus/Messiah life but the real reason for Jesus/ Messiah was to show you how to treat your fellow man and to turn away from religious insanity which for some reason you still want to cling to as something important when in fact it is nothing but a bunch of rubbish that needed to be rejected for the last 2000 years as Jesus tried to show all men.
And you Frank, trying to cling onto the past useless religious nonsense shows that you never understood a thing Jesus said or did or was. Please stop trying to equate Jesus with the nonsense of religious stupidity. Do you not take anything from the Indictment of Jesus in Matthew 23, except to think it has something to do with the way religion has tried to capitalize on the Jesus uprising and subsequent following which they tried,,,very successfully I hasten to add, to hijack Jesus message as if it was merely a continuation of church dogma, which couldn’t be further from the truth. You are trying to actualize the folly of religion with the phenomenal Jesus who came to revolutionize the truth about God, where he lives and what he expects every man to understand. Jesus never died for your sins; if you are in sin that has absolutely nothing to do with anybody except yourself for failing to understand Jesus message to get God out of the supernatural heaven of religion into the real heaven that resides in you and me and all humanity, that’s all.
And you are missing the mark.
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April 14, 2016 at 7:57 pm
Inquisitor,
Guilty of sarcasm brought on by frustration, I’ll dial it back. Ironically, only a person like yourself who claims to reject the supernatural and appeals to logic and reason would’ve exhibited such a response.
I believe in the supernatural but consider the “swoon theory” impossible UNLESS the bible is inaccurate regarding the events before and after the Resurrection. My wishing I had your faith remark was partly sincere based on that. If a man being crucified became unconscious, he would slump down and not be able to breathe and die. I see no possibility a person receiving the trauma as described in the bible could’ve survived if the Roman soldiers wanted the condemned to die, obviously you disagree.
Why do you believe Jesus of Nazareth should be considered a hero if your scenario is correct? He duped everybody after the Resurrection, or have I misunderstood you? Many died horrible deaths because of this charade and the final result was the great abomination of the RCC. The New Testament was written after the Resurrection and if your scenario is correct it is fake or greatly exaggerated. The whole New Testament is built on the Resurrection not just surviving death.
Don’t blame me for supernaturalism it’s Jesus of Nazareth’s fault. He should’ve said, “Mary help, I need a doctor” to avoid supernaturalism.
I understood your explanation about the escape from the tomb. As I said, I was pretending to be someone that does not believe in the supernatural and suggesting different scenarios. I’ve heard several over the years, yours is unique.
Paul
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April 14, 2016 at 8:33 pm
Paul:
“Don’t blame me for supernaturalism it’s Jesus of Nazareth’s fault. He should’ve said, “Mary help, I need a doctor” to avoid supernaturalism.”
This eludes me completely I can’t imagine what you are referring to or what you are trying to say.
If you are a man walking dead and I reveal something profound that actually wakes you up and you go on a different path in life; are you not raised from the dead? Is that supernatural?
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April 15, 2016 at 6:15 am
Paul, well said my friend. You are right, it is Jesus’ fault 🙂
More than that, you made the most important statement of this whole discussion, in that the whole new testament and even more than that, the whole Christian faith, is built on the resurrection.
It is no surprise that the enemy would attack the validity of the resurrection because it is the cornerstone of what we believe.
Naz
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April 15, 2016 at 10:54 am
Naz, Naz, Naz:
The Resurrection did not begin with Jesus!
It is your own Christian community that built its house based on the false supernatural sands of dead men rising from their graves because it is the same House that the Pharisees built before Jesus was ever born.
Christianity is merely a carry over of Pharisaical Dogma about the Resurrection Belief.
Listen: After the Pharisees hijacked the Jesus following and ably injected their erroneous belief of the Resurrection into the new Church Direction based almost entirely on Paul’s Pharisaical upbringing plus the claim by his(Paul’s) followers that Jesus was resurrected from the dead is a position that you have so readily swallowed and thought it was your own. Paul never met Jesus.
So laughable, but also so lamentable because of your non knowledge of scripture and Jesus campaign message to get the religiously downtrodden blind out of the religious gutter of the Pharisee nonsense ritual practices and you still have not learned anything about Jesus, you have only learned the Pharisee Way and just don’t know it.
Don’t you know that the Pharisees hijacked the following of Jesus by jumping on the biggest Festival in the world at that time period in history, The “Estrus Festival”, the “human mating season” and renamed it “Christmas” by claiming it was the birthday of Jesus Christ and inserting the Christ and the Mass of Catholicism. It’s the same Festival written about in Jeremiah 10:1-10 that describes Christmas to a Tee and even described the Christmas Tree to a Tee and the presents and gifts exchanged, lol, although Jeremiah called it the “Way of the Gentiles” it was the way of the Christian, AKA, the “Next Generation Pharisees”, disguised as Christians, the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Of the few innocent pleasures left, the jamming of common sense down the throats of fools is perhaps the keenest.
Thomas Huxley
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April 15, 2016 at 2:00 pm
Inquisitor,
If the “swoon theory” is correct then no supernatural event occurred. But the New Testament is a symbolic weight around the neck of that theory. Logic and common sense say both can’t be true. The logical and common sense response of one who does not believe in the supernatural, but accepts the “swoon theory” as fact, has to be the New Testament is inaccurate.
Jesus Christ presented Himself Resurrected in the New Testament not as someone who just survived the crucifixion. This seems totally out of character from the Jesus Christ as portrayed in the bible.
The “swoon theory” is the lukewarm option and below your logic and common sense world view. If you can’t accept the hot option go with the cold one and take the natural cafeteria approach to the New Testament.
Paul
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April 15, 2016 at 2:14 pm
Naz,
The New Testament says Jesus Christ died. If He didn’t die then the New Testament is inaccurate.
Paul
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April 15, 2016 at 10:19 pm
Inq,
The Gospel of Mark records this: And He [Christ/Messiah] was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (Mark 7:20-23) This lines up with Jeremiah 17:5, 9-10 as opposed to your ill-conceived pablum which will count as stubble in the Day you give your account to Him. You deny His death even His purpose [Philippians 2:1-11]. You persist in your rejection that Messiah came to save the world from God’s wrath [John 10:14-18; Hebrews 13:12, 15-16, 20]. In so doing it shall fall upon you yourself to pay your own penalty; because God being the Almighty Righteous Judge thus He executes exact Justice. Think you’re up to it? Moreover, think you have no penalty to pay? Think thrice [2 Corinthians 8:9; Hebrews 10:29].
– Frank
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April 16, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Frank:
Your biblical barbs you throw at me
Hit the mirror and return to thee.
Leo
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April 16, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Paul:
The more your denial is shown……………..……,
I never heard of the Swoon Theory before you mentioned it; I was going to ask you if you coined it but looked on internet.. I had to laugh as the author refuting the theory obviously had a bias(CARM) Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, against the survival healing by saying first that Jesus suffered through 6 trials ……….FALSE…..that is math run amuck. In today’s, similar court proceedings after an arrest, there are three stage: (1) Arraignment(Annas), (2) Preliminary Hearing(Grand Jury-Caiaphas) , (3) Trial(Pilate)……Jesus had one trial heard by three people in the 3-stage process….Annas deposed(from office), still called High Priest as the title followed as an honor) like “President” Clinton, Carter, Bush, but as a “to-go-to” person being the father-in-law of the actual “in-office” high Priest ….Caiaphas who had no decisive authority so remanded Jesus for the trial by Pilate who was the authority. The author of the refutation is actually stupid and on a misleading religious high, to even have refuted the theory with such obfuscation and ignorance.
Author says Jesus lay in the Tomb for three days with out medical attention-FALSE…..Jesus was removed on the first night opportunity after dusk and received immediate medical attention
Author says Jesus rolled the 2 and a half stone stone which when placed to seal the tomb dropped into a trench no less than a foot deep and 3 to 4 feet, long with a width equal to the width of the huge rolling stone……FALSE….. This stone would have taken a team of oxen to roll it away out of the trench.
Crown of thorns as a cause of non remedial intervention…….FALSE……..it would have been painful and cause superficial bleeding that would soon have coagulated but hardly doomed to death.
Scouring: Complete speculation therefore ….FALSE….. by the many numeric falsehood associations in the refutation………I quote from (Science and Law, 1970, The Legal and medical aspects of the trial and death of Christ). It is not known whether the number of lashes given Jesus was limited to 39, in accordance with Jewish law. (Or even if that number was delivered) There is no evidence that the Romans had any set limit to how many lashes they gave (and there are no biblical references able to be cited-there are none, nil, nada niet)
Author says Wearing a purple robe/blood would congeal into the fabric of the robe. When the robe was ripped off, more excruciating pain would result….FALSE….The cloth used was color of purple in mockery. In Mark 15:16, Roman soldiers CLOTHED Jesus in PURPLE before beating him and crucifying him. In this sense, they were mocking his supposed royalty. (since he was considered the King of the Jews)
Crucifixion: Author says The heart beats so hard trying to compensate for the loss of oxygen it eventually ruptures. At this point the chest cavity fills with fluid…………..FALSE……….the bible says the soldier pierced Jesus’ side, not his chest cavity nor does it say the pierce was an inch deep to determine reflex action of if it was 6 inches deep or through the entire body. One can only guess which occurred, I submit the form as a prodding test for reaction.
Burial: Author states the way of the linen wrap but not even the close family were part of that process so the author goes off on a Lazarus tangent to make his case……FALSE……only Nico and Joseph were privy to that affair part of the preparation and they are the two who were part and partial of the escape plot and whom Jesus put his complete Faith is to let them get into action on his behalf!
And the New Testament is inaccurate. Tough pill to swallow after spending one’s whole life living in a falsehood fantasy; it would be so much better to know the truth and understand the message of Jesus about God within you and not God without you. So I understand how people will deny the truth rather than admit they might have been wrong and wasting their life following the very people that Jesus condemned:….that Jesus condemned while he was living and for that reason was he hunted, arrested, beaten, whipped, scourged, crowned, and crucified but than goodness two truth worthy, sincere and righteous members of the Sanhedrin rescued him from the fate of death which allowed him to live out his exemplary life out of the grasp of the fickle fingers or finks!
Said Jesus to them: Luke 11:52 “Woe to you lawyers,(experts & scholars in the Mosaic Law) because you have taken away the key to knowledge (scriptural truth). You yourselves did not enter, and you held back those who were entering [by your flawed interpretation of God’s word and your man-made tradition].”
……………………..…..the more your dupery is known.
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April 16, 2016 at 1:07 pm
Naz:
The only enemy here is the one from whose heart the word proceedeth.
Frank: The scriptures you sent to me in Post 88 were actually written for you.
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April 16, 2016 at 4:47 pm
Inquisitor,
I’ve read CARM along with many others regarding the crucifixion/resurrection. I heard of the “swoon theory” years ago, is it a term coined by CARM? You’ve got a much more detailed and interesting theory though. Now I understand why you didn’t use “swoon sponge.”
Your own statements echo my main concern (eg. “unless you read between the lines”). How can the New Testament be accurate if only special revelation can produce the evidence to support your theory?
Your are almost there, just admit the New Testament is inaccurate, then your impossible theory becomes plausible. Step fully into the light of reason and logic. Don’t worry, you can still reject everything supernatural in the bible with this theory as long as you admit the New Testament is inaccurate.
Paul
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April 16, 2016 at 8:06 pm
Paul:
If you read my entire post 90 you would read the first sentence in paragraph 9 to read my response to your query if the New Testament inaccurate. The answer is not a stand alone statement because I believe the New Testament is misinterpreted and misunderstood by the writers and readers alike not to mention the Church Dogma Revisionists when deciding what books to throw away and what books to included, as well as what passages removed and passages retained.
Now tell me this Paul, is there anything in the following passage you consider to be inaccurate?
MATT 27:50 But Jesus, again crying out loudly, breathed his last.
51-53 At that moment, the Temple curtain was ripped in two, top to bottom. There was an earthquake, and rocks were split in pieces. What’s more, tombs were opened up, and many bodies of believers asleep in their graves were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, they left the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.
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April 16, 2016 at 8:22 pm
Paul you do not need a special revelation to support Jesus New Testament Messages, just basic common sense without being skewed by Ghost Buster Theocracy.
If you think you have a miracle, figure out how it was done. This is the same reasoning the magicians in Pharaoh’s court used when Pharaoh asked Moses for a miracle and Moses commanded Aaron to cast down the staff that turned into a snake, as the Prophet claimed God told him to communicate to Moses, picking it up again it turned back into a staff. It is the same reasoning used to understand how the feeding of the multitude of thousands with loaves and fishes came to pass. Simple.
After the court “magicians” figured out the trick by repeating the magic, the miracle notion was dispelled and Moses was told to get the heck out of the palace for he was nothing more that another magician; surely, not the representative of the all Powerful God of Israel that Moses and the Prophet through Moses and Aaron tried to dupe Pharaoh about believing based on the “miracle”.
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April 17, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Inquisitor,
I’m surprised you were not aware of the “swoon theory,” you should check it out. It’s been around for a long time before CARM (poor joke on my part) and a favourite of Muslims, they have a couple. I’ve heard: Joe, Nic, Gam and Luke mentioned depending on who’s telling the “swoon theory” version.
It seems to me you did not address the main argument against it. Why would the Apostles/Disciples including James, Jesus’ foster brother (which I didn’t come up with) become energized as they did by a Jesus of Nazareth who only survived death not over came it. And why give the impression He over came death? Or do you even believe He did give the impression He over came death?
When stating your theory you should make it perfectly clear that you “believe the New Testament is misinterpreted and misunderstood by the writers.” IMO saying “the New Testament is inaccurate” would avoid the confusion I experienced. Your argument is unique in that it tries to support the “swoon theory” with a naturalistic approach to the New Testament.
Don’t worry about me. I believe in the supernatural but don’t take everything in the bible literally so my statements reflect that. Look to the story of creation, I take the main meaning as fact (ie. “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”). Now did that happen in 6 – 24 hour days or 13.8 billion years I don’t care.
I was worried about you. You seemed to be sounding like you were infected by supernaturalism and I was doing an intervention. Apparently, it was just a misunderstanding on my part about how you saw the New Testament, from now on I’ll clarify.
I still recommend you consider the most logical and reasoned response for one with your predominant world view. According to the New Testament He really died (Romans/Sanhedrin/Apostles), people don’t come back from being really dead, who cares what happened to the body it’s impossible, were not caterpillars.
Paul
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April 17, 2016 at 1:38 pm
Here is the impression Jesus gave of the resurrection at the earliest appearance: Jesus saith to her, ‘Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.’
And after the healing some days later: “Look at my hands; look at my feet – it’s really me. Touch me. Look me over from head to toe. A (supernatural) ghost doesn’t have muscle and bone like this.”
And what would be the point to be resurrected, still carrying the scars and wounds inflicted upon him a few days before, why not without scars and wound marks? Any?
Jesus didn’t say anything about overcoming death but that he was alive and eating, as one who had a body, not a supernatural spirit?
As far as the followers go, what they inferred and what Jesus implied are two different things. Jesus was silent about rising from the dead after he survived, just as he left the ritual baptism silent when he told John the Baptist who resisted baptizing Jesus, let the baptism stand: “……Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” ……..in other words..”FOR THE APPEARANCE OF ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS” because many stood by and were watching the baptisms of John.
Paul: Did you not read my post 93 and previous post 90, In case you are simply speed reading and skimming the text the sentence post 90:paragraph 9 reads:
“And the New Testament is inaccurate. Tough pill to swallow after spending one’s whole life living in a falsehood fantasy; it would be so much better to know the truth and understand the message of Jesus about God within you and not God without you. So I understand how people will deny the truth rather than admit they might have been wrong and wasting their life following the very people that Jesus condemned:….that Jesus condemned while he was living and for that reason was he hunted, arrested, beaten, whipped, scourged, crowned, and crucified but thank goodness, two truth-worthy, sincere and righteous members of the Sanhedrin rescued him from the fate of death which allowed him to live out his exemplary life out of the grasp of the fickle fingers or finks!”
But again I would not characterize the Testament as inaccurate but misinterpreted and misunderstood although the bible is very clear to me.
Jesus was not really dead just because some people said he was; he could have been if Nico and Joe had not been such friends to him, loving him and protecting him from the egocentric religious bastards whose toes he stepped because he wanted to do something other than comply with the supernatural nonsense of religious insanity. But Joseph and Nicodemus plan worked out just as they had planned everything including gaining an audience with the Ruler of the Roams Pilate. Now imagine the influence both he and Nico wielded to be able to go into see Pilate on a moment’s notice and on whose payroll were the centurions since Pilate had a troop of centurions expressly for the Sanhedrin and the Jewish Rulers use and service.
Are you kidding with the supernatural stuff of religion and hollywood, that you believe in that? that nobody has been able to prove except by belief and by the proof charlatans like Popoff who can heal by slapping your forehead and pushing you to the floor, with hidden microphones in his ear and wife telling them the stories of certain parishioners willing to follow the tricksters fro a goodly sum of recompense. Yeah
Note very carefully that the Hebrew culture, at the time of Genesis
writing, was not monothestic, but rather, polytheistic. Will your priest, minister or preacher tell you that? No. But you can find out for yourself with a simple dictionary.
The Hebrew word for God is el; the plural is elohim, gods. What is the first sentence in the Bible?
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1).
Here is Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew (transliterated into the Latin alphabet, of course):
“Bereshith bara elohim,” etc.,
“In-beginning created (the) gods (the) heavens and (the) earth.”
In the same chapter the word “elohim” (gods) is used thirty times., Those gods are the ones who created the ‘universe’ in 6 days.
Jesus put it this way: You love sitting at the head table at church dinners, love preening yourselves in the radiance of public flattery. Frauds! You’re just like unmarked graves: People walk over that nice, grassy surface, never suspecting the rot and corruption that is six feet under.”
One of the religion scholars spoke up: “Teacher, do you realize that in saying these things you’re insulting us?” He said, “Yes, and I can be even more explicit. You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You load people down with rules and regulations, nearly breaking their backs, but never lift even a finger to help. You’re hopeless! You build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed. The tombs you build are monuments to your murdering ancestors more than to the murdered prophets. “You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You took the key of knowledge, but instead of unlocking doors, you locked them. You won’t go in yourself, and won’t let anyone else in either.”
Amen the end.
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April 18, 2016 at 12:04 pm
Frank:
I’d like to thank all the angry, born again Christians who’ve been writing to tell me how much their looking forward to my eternal torment, in the flames of Hell. It’s nice to know that I’m in your prayers. And you are rubbing your hands with gleeful anticipation too, some of you by the sounds of it, when you’re not furiously typing pages and pages of scripture. And yet, if I call you, crazy, apparently, I’m the one, who’s being offensive. It’s a funny old world isn’t it.
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April 20, 2016 at 9:08 pm
Not a spiritual body a glorified body.
His wounds are there as a badge of honor and help us to distinguish Him from Adam.
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April 20, 2016 at 11:42 pm
Paul:
I would love to hear your description of a “spiritual” body and a “glorified” body; and the difference between a regular body…..lol
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April 21, 2016 at 12:06 am
Glorified: “(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.
Spiritual: of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. In Christianity, the apostle Paul introduced the concept of the spiritual body in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 15:44), describing the resurrection body as “spiritual” (Greek “pneumatikos”) in contrast to the natural (Greek “psychikos”) body: THis obviously did not apply to Jesus when he said touch me and see that I am muscle and bone which a ghost(spirit) does not have.
regular body? Is there such a thing in religion?
‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’” To which Paul responds, “You foolish person!” (1 Corinthians 15:35–36). That is one of the most caustic retorts in all the Pauline writings. But in Paul’s estimation, this doctrine is fundamental. To deny an actual, physical resurrection is to embrace something other than genuine Christianity: “For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins” (1 Corinthians 15:16–17).
God made human beings body and soul together. He “formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature” (Genesis 2:7). We consist of an inner self and an outer self (2 Corinthians 4:16). Therefore our ultimate perfection demands that both body and soul be renewed. Even the creation of a new heaven and earth demands that we have bodies—a physical earth calls for its inhabitants to have physical bodies. An honest approach to Scripture does not permit these realities to be simply spiritualized or allegorized. Eternal life as a mere state of mind would defeat the whole point of many of the promises of Scripture.
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April 21, 2016 at 6:09 am
Leo, that’s a correct and concise explanation of a physical resurrection with good scripture references to boot …..
Why don’t you believe it ?
Naz
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April 21, 2016 at 7:09 am
As to the term glorified body, Jesus had a glorified body although it was still flesh and bone. It was a new physical body that was no longer limited like our mortal bodies. This is how He was able to pass through walls and vanish out of people’s site etc…
All that believe in Jesus will one day receive a new physical body like He did that will not age, or get fat, or grow old and die of disease. This is what Jesus offers us for free while the world is scurrying in futility to achieve through science and technology, which they will never do.
God is so good.
Naz
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April 21, 2016 at 8:46 am
I do believe it as a natural phenomenon, not supernatural as you. You think Jesus walked through walls and vanish like hocus pocus..poof….because you are duped with the supernatural without imagination of reality by taking a literal meaning that he appeared to them…in a poof…and disappeared the same way which is totally ridiculous; it does not happen. Jesus had his solid body of muscle and bone and told the group to touch him and feel his solid mass of a body, not one that can go through walls or elevated in defiance of gravity.
Why do you think Jesus was hungry and asked for food?
You see Naz if you read Jason’s newest Post about why Millennials are not buying what you are selling it is because they are smarter than you and use common sense. So when you try to present your ludicrous claims they reject them and you are the very reason that Christianity is on the slope of decline and declining faster and faster because they are being wasted by religious insanity and stupidity and there’s no polite way to tell you this. Just wake up! Try walking through the wall if you believe you can, try floating up into the sky, I fly there all the time, in dreams, but then I wake up, which unfortunately for you, that’s where you live your reality.
How in the world do you think you can understand anything about Jesus and his message when you are missing the most important ingredient needed to understand anything Jesus ever said or did; that is, basic-common-sense. That’s boot camp Naz, boot camp.
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April 21, 2016 at 8:49 am
Naz:
If Jesus had a new physical body why did he retain the scars in his hands and feet and side from the old physical body? OMG you are obtuse.
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April 21, 2016 at 8:50 am
Naz:
There are no trees in your forest, that’s why you can’t see them.
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April 21, 2016 at 9:06 am
Leo, nothing you can say can sway me from believing in the true Jesus Christ.
Call me what you want, I don’t care and I’m not offended.
The end of your naturalism is only worm food. You have no solution for the grave and only Jesus does. That’s the bottom line here.
Naz
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April 21, 2016 at 9:42 am
Inquisitor,
A glorified body is flesh and bone not spirit as I understand.
There are different beliefs about what the “human soul” means. I understand it to just mean you are a human breathing.
It is my understanding a regular human being is just two parts. The tangible is the body and the intangible is the mind/personality. A child of God also has a third part; the Holy Spirit.
Again, different people have different ideas about Jesus Christ appearing and disappearing. I believe He is stepping in and out of dimensions but don’t have any concerns about other views. Even according to the natural world; space, time and other dimensions are concepts I’ve only scratched the surface of.
Paul
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April 21, 2016 at 2:37 pm
Naz:
None can know the real Jesus unless the Father draw him.
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April 22, 2016 at 6:23 am
Yes Leo you are correct in words, but you don’t know the Father because you have denied His only son Jesus Christ. If you knew Jesus you would have known His Father also.
Naz
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April 22, 2016 at 12:41 pm
Inquisitor,
I find your crusade against the supernatural fascinating. Do you make a distinction between those who believe in the supernatural? My mother believed in the supernatural, but was the sweetest person I’d ever meet, she tried her best to live a life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I also have problems with those who believe in the supernatural. My problem is not that they believe in the supernatural though and these types of people can also be found in other world views. A brief example; I don’t have a problem with RC (or other Christians for that matter) celebrating Easter Sunday. I have a problem with them because they say I’m committing a mortal sin because I don’t. You know, the pope is the head of all Christendom thing.
Have a blessed Nisan 14th.
Paul
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April 22, 2016 at 7:57 pm
Inq,
I see you just as a hapless individual (evidenced by the fact that you can’t even settle on what to call yourself) who’s desperate for attention. It’s quite unfortunate for you that your vanity gets in the way of your intellectual advancement; despite the many charitable attempts I’ve witnessed to shed light on your frequent nebulous ramblings. Regarding your “Hebrew lesson” in post # 96 I suggest you start by examining this: http://www.hebrew4christians.net/Grammar/Unit_One/Jesus_and_the_Aleph-Bet/jesus_and_the_aleph-bet.html
As to all the rest: Tell it to the Judge.
– Frank
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April 23, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Naz:
I know the Father and where he lives precisely because I know Jesus and understand perfectly his life and message; on the other hand you cannot know the Father because the Father is not a supernatural entity living externally from the human experience which is not a judgment, I hasten to add, but an observation of your own admission by your own words. You know only the false supernatural dogma of religion past and the impossible paranormal of supposed rising and the rising of dead people from their graves after the crucifixion, earthquake and the veil being rent without any perception of metaphor, idiom, parable, fable——anything other than literal text. If I said somebody was running like a bat out of a bell, you would draw a person morphing into a bat and a bell appearing to show the bat running away from the bell like some cartoon caricature concept. You live in a fantasia child mind of Snow White, Cinderella like the religious scholars harassing Jesus and he himself used a metaphor for his own departure and arrival but they could understand nothing he said, much like yourself trying to label Jesus as a supernatural whacko. Obtuse is only a gentle word for your correction because you can’t imagine yourself being under a spell of misinterpretation while the poof poof of magic holds you spellbound like Moses tried to cast upon the Pharaoh with his magic snake trick.
Matthew 12: Hear what Jesus says to the religious ilk:
“This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you’re not on my side, you’re the enemy; if you’re not helping, you’re making things worse.
“There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God’s Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you’re sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.
“If you grow a healthy tree, you’ll pick healthy fruit. If you grow a diseased tree, you’ll pick worm-eaten fruit. The fruit tells you about the tree.
“You have minds like a snake pit! How do you suppose what you say is worth anything when you are so foul-minded? It’s your heart, not the dictionary,(not literal text) that gives meaning to your words. A good person produces good deeds and words season after season. An evil person is a blight on the orchard. Let me tell you something: Every one of these careless words is going to come back to haunt you. There will be a time of Reckoning. Words are powerful; take them seriously. Words can be your salvation. Words can also be your damnation.”
Later a few religion scholars and Pharisees got on him. “Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?”
Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.
It’s a metaphor Naz, it’s a metaphor……huh……and you still don’t get it?
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April 23, 2016 at 1:17 pm
You Paul:
Your reasoning is so sound that I am amazed at things you say that shows understand so soundly, an unlikely find in religious circles.
What you said about why you have a problem with RC and other Christians I could not have given a better example of the same problem I have when people who call my comments rants or I don’t know what I am talking about but to me they are not really talking about me, they are talking about the spirit within me that to me is guiding my thoughts as I write. This is not about me, it’s about all humanity. I am not seeking accolades but I am supremely warmed by your smart words of insight.
Happy Passover to you too; you are not far away at all from where I sit.
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April 23, 2016 at 1:38 pm
Paul’s
statement shows sound reasoning:
“I don’t have a problem with RC (or other Christians for that matter) celebrating Easter Sunday. I have a problem with them because they say I’m committing a mortal sin because I don’t.”
Profound in its simplicity exposing the intolerance of “different folk” by enforcers of administrative protocols under “color of religious freedom.” using God as a scapegoat for alienating “infidels” on “God’s” behalf.
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April 23, 2016 at 2:42 pm
Paul:
The sweetest people and good(est) people are not sweet or good because they believe in supernatural, they are sweet from within despite the supernatural; it is their natural within and that is super…..
And those people deserve to know the truth about what religious scholars hide from them…..as I mention often as it seems repeating is needed:
“Said Jesus to the religious professionals: Luke 11:52 “Woe to you lawyers,(experts & scholars in religious Law) because you have taken away(have hidden) the key to knowledge (scriptural truth). You yourselves did not enter, and you held back those who were entering [by your flawed interpretation of God’s word and your man-made tradition].”
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April 23, 2016 at 3:38 pm
Frank:
Your “charitable”(-weird word choice) witness is not your witness but witness videos promoting ancient flawed religious dogma which you have been indoctrinated by, imbedded with and now proselytizing for, thus fulfilling Jesus’ observation 2000 years as you mimic the end result of a (two fold more the child); your characterization of charitable presumes a certain pride.
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you travel on sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”
You’ll name him Frank and make him blog your useless dog (ma) thinking he is doing a wonderful work for God in promoting the blindness of academia, hiding the key of knowledge and perpetrating the falsehoods of fraudsters. People like Frank are born in every generation to teach the next generation children the most hateful and divisive absurdities it’s possible to imagine. And imagined them they have. Creating in them not young, vibrant, healthy, inquiring minds but rather stunted little freakish bonsai minds that are no use to anyone but a proselytizing preacher preying for pence and power.
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April 23, 2016 at 6:05 pm
Inquisitor,
Thank you for sharing.
Paul
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April 23, 2016 at 7:05 pm
Inq,
CHARITABLE in the same context as CHARITY used in Luke 11:14-41 (NASB).
“But give that which is within as charity, and behold all things are clean for you.” (Luke 11:41)
– Frank
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April 25, 2016 at 8:21 am
Leo, this one’s for you my friend ….
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Naz
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April 25, 2016 at 11:24 am
Naz:
Thomas Jefferson was an American Founding Father who was principal author of the Declaration of Independence (1776), elected the second Vice President of the United States (1797–1801), served under John Adams and in 1800 was elected third President (1801–09) of the United States of America.
Some things in Revelation make sense after diligent deciphering but other mind meme minglings was described by Jefferson as:
“It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams.”
That commentary sums up nicely the scripture you quoted.
Ahh Naz, it must be bliss to accept literal text without any thought of parabolic context that makes all the more poignant the delusion of myopic interpretation of literal text in all things biblical. You are missing too many boats Naz and if Peter at the gate says “but Naz we sent you LeoTheGreater to give you context and knowledge but you rejected it the same way that clerical deception rejected it 2000 years ago when Jesus described his role and the religious ilk rejection:
“Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; …………..(in my campaign to disseminate truth and knowledge).
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
‘Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES (heralding) THE NAME OF THE LORD!’
And Naz, you know, Jesus I have never denied, as the spirit guide, in any of my comments. And the Spirit is not happy with you about that rejection. And there is turmoil about that in your own spirit.
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April 25, 2016 at 12:11 pm
Inq,
Get a grip (on reality)! And get down off your slippery soap box before you fall and break your neck. All you do is merchandise/promote the “Jezus” of your predilections which has nothing to do with Messiah’s true message for humanity: http://www.truegospel.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/basics.tour/ID/2/What-Did-Jesus-Preach.htm
A Lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken! Who can but prophesy? (Amos 3:8)
– Frank
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April 25, 2016 at 1:13 pm
Leo, my spirit is fine and at peace with Jesus… thanks for your concern.
Naz
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April 25, 2016 at 1:23 pm
If not for Matthew 26: 64 would Jesus of Nazareth have been sentenced to death? If He didn’t speak the truth (assuming these are His words) isn’t He a lunatic? If He did speak the truth why wasn’t He saved by the Heavenly Host? If these are His words, logically He had to die.
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April 26, 2016 at 9:45 pm
Paul:
Your question arises from Christian beguiling because you too have the incorrect meaning of that scripture. Christian beguiling is all about clever misinterpreting scripture to suit the dogma of religion so they mix up the “wrods”(see?) deliberately and Christians by the billions eat of that scholarly tree without question that make words seem to mean something they do not actually mean and this scriptural phrase is a good example of the mixing. Here’s the real meaning of that scripture. I use the King James to demonstrate it clearly but first I want to preface the scriptural meaning.
Knowledge not only changes one’s belief system it frees them from the tyranny of belief that religion keeps you in thrall, from where you cannot grasp the reality of humanity. Your thought patterns are twisted by nonsense religion preying on your mind with supernaturalism so how can you not avoid the walking dead zombie phenomenon, in darkness. Knowledge sets one free as only knowledge can, belief never can. There is a mighty gulf between belief and knowledge. All religion derives from a person; all religion is based on belief systems, belief is not knowledge and no belief ever existed in knowledge because with knowledge, belief vanishes! Jonas Salk (Oct 28, 1914-June 23, 1995) was an American medical researcher and virologist, best known for his discovery and development of the first successful polio vaccine. He BELIEVED he could eliminate polio, when he found the knowledge it set him free from pursuing his belief; belief disappeared. I believe in Jesus, he was a hero but Gods do not exist outside a concept and concepts don’t defy gravity or suspend the Laws of Physics to accommodate claims of miracles. With belief, one is merely talking through the air in their cranial cavity. To be fair I do actually sympathize to some extent, I mean, it must be quite galling for religious people to see people like me going about their business without a shred of guilt or self loathing and not in the least inclined to pray or to do penance of any kind and not in the slightest bit worried about any form of eternal punishment. On the other hand, believers are being billed for something they didn’t order. And that really is the deal isn’t it? If you’re a Christian, you’re born already in debt, to Jesus, says religion because he died for your sins and should feel ashamed of the guilt and it’s a debt that you can only repay, in full, by dying. Whew, that’s some deal you got yourself there. That’s like asking you to pay off a mortgage on a house that you already own.
No, Jesus was a real man who never performed a miracle but was tagged with supernatural powers because of his common sense ideas to tackle any problem. Jesus gave the presence of his peace by his life, not through his death; the clergy has it all backward by claiming Jesus gave the world life by his shed blood, through his death, uh uh. Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Jesus gave life to the world through his life but religious supernaturalism caters to the reptilian ritualism in the lower brain of humans and as long as you have clergy devoted to living off of the avails of prostituting falsehoods, myths and miracles for the financial security they solicit, from those willing to give it to them; well, that is the falsehood of religion Remember, the unknowable will remain unknowable because as far as the Cosmos goes, what is, IS and there’s nothing any imaginative guru can do or imagine to change it….All religion derives from a person; all afterlife scenarios derive from a person. Your own imagination is as good as it gets. Religion is the cloak over the mind, put there to control those who believe. Religion? It’s like doing magic in front of children and then watching the recorded reactions, puzzled looks and bewildered faces; that is great fun for the preachers as they obfuscate like dancers around the skirt to keep one in a politician’s thrall. As a matter of fact if you go to the Old Testament Bible it tells you that the Lord told Moses(through the prophet of course) when Pharaoh asks for a miracle to prove Moses’ God is the real deal, what the Bible says…basically, show him a magic trick:
Exodus 7:8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a snake.”
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
AND Magic tricks became the cornerstone for biblical miracles. Ask a Christian and you can be sure they will come up with no explanation about the magic/miracle; but they will cast it onto their scapegoat.
Religious supernaturalism holds the dismal belief that the Laws of Nature respond to wailings, incantations, prayers, repetitions, finger beading and chants. These remnants are from the same ancient mindsets that believed the sacrifice of life by someone else’s death was the ultimate appeasement of the gods.
Now the scripture reference you sent, Matthew 26: 64, is also found in other gospels as read from the King James:
Jesus alluded to being the “Son of God” as written in Psalms 82. Luke 22:70 Then said they all, “Art thou then the Son of God?” And he said unto them, “Ye say that I am”. And they said, “What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.” (accusing him by mixing up the words he used in response, as an affirmation which is a misleading interpretation; “mixing” is a common thread pervasive through Chistendom). And you get a sense of how pervasive the Labels on Jesus were when Herod was called by Pilate to oversee the trial and render his verdict on Jesus, Galilee being a jurisdiction of Herod Antipas which incidentally was the same verdict as Pilate reached, “not guilty”; and coincidentally the same Herod who beheaded John the Baptist.
“And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.” But when Herod peppered him with questions. Jesus didn’t answer—not one word. He remained silent. But the high priests and religion scholars were right there, saying their piece, strident and shrill in their accusations. Luke 23:8-King James Version (KJV)
Jesus’ pat answer to the Pharisees when questioned about who he was, Are you the Son of God? Jesus replied by stating the words they used were the Pharisee’s words and not his: It is you who say it. “Thou sayest it”, “It is as you say”, “Thou sayest”. That was not an affirmation but an acknowledgment and admission about what everybody was saying. The Pharisees were mimicking and mocking him using the popular labels of common villagers and this stereotyping became an excuse to bully and taunt Jesus. In today’s street/school language there are instances of name-calling especially by children when they label the obese kid “Fatty” or bully the soft hearted as a “Patsy”, for example, or someone studious, an idiot, geek or teacher’s pet and the counter to that is: “That’s what you say” or “That’s what you think” and “I know you are but what am I?”
And tJesus answer was the same answer he gave when Pilate asked him about his Kingship Luke 23:70 “And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, ‘Thou sayest it.’ ” These were not Jesus words, they were Pilate’s words, Pharisee’s words, the People’s words so it was no affirmation that he was a King any more than he was the son of God, it was simply acknowledging the stereotyping, the tag, the labels others placed on him, something Jesus never sought, created or claimed to be on a wholesale level.
I’ll keep trying to take believers out of the fog of dead religion and into the reality of the culture enlivened that Jesus vibrated with and who messaged everybody to become energized by.
Example of visual mixing that looks rather miraculous in its presentation.
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April 27, 2016 at 10:25 am
“And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, ‘Thou sayest it.’ ” These were not Jesus words, they were Pilate’s words, Pharisee’s words, the People’s words so it was no affirmation that he was a King any more than he was the son of God, it was simply acknowledging the stereotyping, the tag, the labels others placed on him, something Jesus never sought, created or claimed to be on a wholesale level.”
Uh really….. ?
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Leo Leo….you can’t hide from the truth it will find you out my friend.
Naz
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April 27, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Inquisitor,
Jesus of Nazareth saying He is the Son of God or the Messiah is not punishable by death as I understand from my studies of Judaism.
Judaism would teach all God’s children are His son’s and daughter’s.
There is some famous Rabbi from New York who died but his followers believe him to be the Messiah. They can still remain part of Judaism because they believe he is just a man. Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ can’t though because they believe He is divine.
Paul
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April 27, 2016 at 1:30 pm
Naz:
Is that your final answer? Don’t be so silly. I am talking about the people who noised abroad throughout the land about the feeding of the multitudes and other events claimed and broadcast (Noised throughout the land) around the cities, towns and villages; forget Simon, this is not a one man that talked av out the miracles of Jesus or his identity, that was a personal conversation.
I’m talking about the throngs of thousands who followed him and I also gave you the account of Herod’s delight because he, having heard so much, not from Simon to be sure, but from all the followers all around the towns like a Billy Graham Crusade of thousands.
And this “Father in heaven”, where is the residence of this Father and the domain of his kingdom; please answer those simple questions? And please stop neglecting to answer the questions I pose by skirting around the issues! You find one single solitary verse and believe that is the essence of rebuttal…..for the many other situations, trials, the Sanhedrin accusations, the multitude of thousands of the poor who followed people without a shepherd and searching for their champion.?
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April 27, 2016 at 1:33 pm
Naz:
You’re rebuttal is like the tail trying to wag the the dog. You don’t have enough spiritual fortitude to debate Jesuspeake with moi. You think you have but you don’t.
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April 27, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Paul:
I submit being or appearing “divine” is close, is akin, to being godlike but not God; Divine is a coined term of man to express his conception about a God he cannot possibly understand by his own admission. “For who can know the mind of God. None.
“Jesus of Nazareth saying He is the Son of God or the Messiah is not punishable by death as I understand from my studies of Judaism”
That is punishable by death as blasphemy just like the first four religious decrees know as the Ten Commandments. the first four are relifious decress, the rest are societal laws.
Now the reason that Pilate did not find Jesus guilty was because he did not care about the religious laws of the Jews and that’s why he sent Jesus to Herod on the the pretense that Galilee was under Herod’s jurisdiction but even Herod did not find any guilt worthy of death. The Jews however not being content with those decisions base on their religious insanity that simply slid off the back of the Romans the Jews then switched their religious blasphemy charges and appealed to the sedition position that Jesus was leading a rebellion in an attempt an overthrow Roman Rule which was ridiculous but that got more attention as a problem the Romans were prepared to deal with, hence the eventual capitulation to the Jewish lobbyists.
That Judaism teaches that we are all children of the most high, the sons of God was the Psalms 82 reference of “I said you are gods”…..that Jesus quoted from the OT when he said “…….if he said you are gods unto whom the word of God came then why belittle me….” calling himself the son of God according to the scripture ( and scripture cannot be discounted). This retort by Jesus was the sarcastic remark to the Jews who prided themselves that the scriptures cannot be discounted regardless but when Jesus threw their own teaching back in their face the religious scholars were all the more furious with him for exposing their hypocrisy.
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April 27, 2016 at 3:27 pm
Inquisitor,
The blasphemy is equating yourself equal to God. Saying you are the Messiah or Son of God is not equating yourself with God. Judaism teaches the Messiah is a man as was David.
Paul
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April 27, 2016 at 9:49 pm
Paul:
Whatever.
Jesus said: King James Version (KJV)
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; BUT FOR BLASPHEMY; AND BECAUSE THAT THOU, BEING A MAN, MAKEST THYSELF GOD.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
It seems the Jews were going to stone Jesus because he said he was the son of god, as quoted from the Bible; in other words, BLASPHEMY according to this story about the stoning attempt.
And Psalms 82 says 6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”.
So I don’t understand why you injected the comment:
“The blasphemy is equating yourself equal to God. Saying you are the Messiah or Son of God is not equating yourself with God. Judaism teaches the Messiah is a man as was David.”
Apparently to Jews of Jesus day disagrees with you: because merely saying you are the son of god was blasphemy in their eyes.
The Book of Psalms, Hebrew Tehillim, (“Praises”), is the first book of the third section of the Bible, the Ketuvim or Sacred Writings, Three sections of the Jewish Bible presumes all three sections to be part of the teachings of Judaism.
However I am not concerned about the academia of Judaism as I am about the Gospels as it relates to Jesus and his interpretation of the quotes he used.
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April 28, 2016 at 10:11 am
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things which I have done.” (John 4:39)
John 4:4-42, 43-54; 20:29-31.
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April 28, 2016 at 4:33 pm
Inquisitor,
“BLASPHEMY = MAKETH THYSELF GOD.” I agree with you.
Paul
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April 30, 2016 at 11:18 am
Miracles provide a sound basis for the high degree of explanatory scope and power of the resurrection of Messiah. Here’s why:
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April 30, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Miracles, the suspension of the Laws of Physics and of universe, such as gravity are not only improbable, they are impossible. Universal Laws are not suspended to accommodate clerical miracles to delude their congregation but useful when magic trickery is used to instill a sense of awe in the mass population for compliance to the demands and ravings of self appointed messengers exploiting existing physical oddities known in academic circles and attributed to non-existent higher power entities, the Gods.
Magic was called “miracle”, and the bible clearly makes that clear in Exodus, and useful as a formula to fascinate the superstitious nature of man’s imagination when acts by sleight-of-hand tricks, such as the properties of the magnet under the table moving metal objects on top of the table when magnetism was generally unknown by uneducated masses.
And neither did the sun and moon stand still in the sky as in Joshua 10:13-14
“So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man……”
It is typical of a delusional mind to take this literally instead of the words unsaid: “The fighting was so intense that it seemed to the soldiers that time stood still.”
For most people, an idiom is an expression where the meaning is not immediately apparent from a literal interpretation of the words. A metaphor is a more extreme form of a simile. A simile is a comparison made between A and B, and a metaphor is where you say A actually is B, even though that’s not literally true.
Such as “time stood still for an extra day” and “the moon stopped” the metaphorically way being: “So the sun delayed going down about a full day.”
This metaphor: Metaphors link two unrelated things that are not normally linked.
Consider: “Her presence is the shining rays of the summer sunshine caressing my face.”
compared to: Matt 17: “2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”
I rest my case.
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May 2, 2016 at 8:06 am
“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.” (Acts 2:24)
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus/Yahshua as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; (Romans 10:9)
And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and be planted in the sea’; and it would obey you.” (Luke 17:6)
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/974/Faith-What-Is-It.htm
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May 5, 2016 at 12:11 pm
Inquisitor,
Did the sun stand still? I wasn’t there, but I don’t think the sun literally stood still because of the natural ramifications of such an event.
You don’t take the bible literally, why ask me to take everything in the bible literally? I use it as the resource to understand God with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Paul
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May 5, 2016 at 1:08 pm
Paul:
I agree with you.
Comment 135 was directed at Frank and his video lesson supporting miracles from a literal interpretation.
Is Aaron your sidekick? companion, brother, just a thought? alter ego? or in theology. altar ego. lol
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May 6, 2016 at 2:50 pm
Spirit Giganticus,
I figured but just wanted to put in my 2 cents.
I’m in the middle (ie. I believe in the supernatural but don’t attribute everything unexplained to the supernatural) and I enjoy discussing the unexplained with those who don’t believe in the supernatural as well as those who attribute everything unexplained to the supernatural and all degrees in between. Miraculous could be substituted for unexplained if you wish.
Aaron is not my sidekick, companion, brother or alter ego, lol.
Paul
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May 7, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Here’s a worthwhile understanding of miracles as presented in the Bible; i. e., as attesting signs:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2012/07/seeking-a-miraculous-sign-as-validation-of-the-prophetic/
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May 7, 2016 at 12:40 pm
Jewish teaching on Messiah in contrast with that of Christianity:
http://jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm
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April 21, 2019 at 11:33 am
[…] There are multiple, independent, early attestations to this fact in both the NT and from non-Christian sources.[1] […]
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