If God knows every choice we’ll make from eternity past, doesn’t that mean our choices are not free – that God has caused us to do what we do? No. Knowledge is not a cause. Knowing what someone will choose to do in advance of their actually doing it does not cause them to do it. While it’s true that if God knows X will happen, X will most certainly happen, but it’s not God’s knowledge of X that makes X happen. It’s our choice to do X. God merely knows what we will freely choose in advance. While God’s knowledge is chronologically prior to our acts, our acts are logically prior to God’s knowledge. If we would have chosen A rather than B on October 12, 2006, God would have known A rather than B. The reason He knew B would happen from eternity past is because He knew we would freely choose B from eternity past. God’s foreknowledge does not determine our choices, but is informed by our choices. In other words, God’s foreknowledge is not the cause of our actions; our actions are the cause of God’s foreknowledge.
August 22, 2017
If God knows everything, are we truly free?
Posted by Jason Dulle under Determinism, Philosophy, Theology[201] Comments
Thinking to Believe 
August 23, 2017 at 12:00 am
If is a speculative drenched word and everything that follows the word “if” is mere speculation.
As a conjunction “if” means: in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:
As a noun “if” is: a supposition; uncertain possibility:
Everything is speculation in the “if” world of speech and the little critter is right in there like a dirty shirt in the laundry when speculating about the big questions of God?
If there was a God one would never have to say “If there was a God” ever again. Simple. There is another way of saying the same thing:
Matthew 5:37
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one and that my friend includes the “ifs” of belief. Either you know or you do not know.
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August 23, 2017 at 4:40 am
On the topic of using the word “if” in one’s language is somehow problematic, then we can look to Jesus’ use of “if-then” subjunctive conditional statements.
“If I cast out spirits by the power of the evil one, then by what spirit do your sons cast out demon spirits”. Or Paul: “if I speak with tongues of men and angels and do not have love, I am a tinkling symbol or sounding brass.”
On the article, William Lane Craig would heartily agree – that God’s knowledge is chronologically prior to future events, and our choices are logically prior to God’s knowledge of them. This appeal allows for God to have perfect omniscience without designing humans to function in the model of biological robots.
Good article!
Thanks! :-]
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August 23, 2017 at 4:46 am
This statement: “but is informed by our choices”, implies God is contingent upon our choices. I would disagree and rather hold to a infra-lapsarian position. I interpret God delivered him up according to his definite plan and foreknowledge as God wills all things that come to pass. I admit this introduces a difficulty for God is not the author of sin. How does God orchestrate all things, including Pharaoh’s and Judas’s actions without sinning? I don’t know.
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August 23, 2017 at 4:57 am
My key references for my commentary below: Ephesians 1:11, Acts 2:23 and 1 Corinthians 14:33
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August 23, 2017 at 5:43 am
The situation described has a benumbing effect on the individual rather than a inspirational effect even for be getting a reply, this is perhaps because men seeks a purpose for himself, and this completely obliterated, in the context of a situation like the one described
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August 23, 2017 at 6:41 am
God set humanity in motion as something of a random generator. While God might know all possible outcomes, he purposely gave mankind certain aspects of randomness so that even He might not know precisely which particular individual will partake in His inheritance. Consequently, we are accountable for our works. Not God. From: Theo-sophical Ruminations To: kimberlyann_45002000@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 1:21 AM Subject: [New post] If God knows everything, are we truly free? #yiv9731472772 a:hover {color:red;}#yiv9731472772 a {text-decoration:none;color:#0088cc;}#yiv9731472772 a.yiv9731472772primaryactionlink:link, #yiv9731472772 a.yiv9731472772primaryactionlink:visited {background-color:#2585B2;color:#fff;}#yiv9731472772 a.yiv9731472772primaryactionlink:hover, #yiv9731472772 a.yiv9731472772primaryactionlink:active {background-color:#11729E;color:#fff;}#yiv9731472772 WordPress.com | Theosophical Ruminator posted: “If God knows every choice we’ll make from eternity past, doesn’t that mean our choices are not free – that God has caused us to do what we do? No. Knowledge is not a cause. Knowing what someone will choose to do in advance of their actually doing it does ” | |
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August 23, 2017 at 7:09 am
br.d
Don’t you see that Jesus was using “if” because the sentence following was mere speculation of the religious establishment. Jesus regurgitated his adversaries own unreasonable speculative presumptions without knowledge. What the Religious zealots were niggling over then hasn’t changed a bit.
Now of course. not in every instance is the use of “if” supposition pure supposition without knowledge, as is the phrase “If there is(was) a God” which there is no knowledge of but mere belief in a man-made caricature concept; then, when one says, if one puts one foot in front of another going forward the reasonable conclusion is that you are walking.
Or, if humans have legs they can usually walk. We know this. We “believe” ….if there was (is) a God….” is quite a different matter…..”if there are alien beings, they should be able to communicate with humans…..the same supposition if there was a God, God should be able to communicate with humans. But we know that nobody speaks to or listens to words from God; of Godly things perhaps, but not from God…only the Messengers suppose that to be true speaking of themselves as the Messengers. The wannabes have always been part of the human experience.
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August 23, 2017 at 7:12 am
Adrian:
Your answer is perfectly honest. “I don’t know”
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August 23, 2017 at 7:18 am
Kimberly:
I submit that your first sentence be revised to:
“Humanity set God in motion as something of a random generator. and that began with roots in Mythology and even today the planets bear the names of those mythical conjures. It has only morphed from that age of wisdom-less wonder up and down the snakes and ladders of modern religions.
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August 23, 2017 at 9:15 am
Sonafman
“Don’t you see that Jesus was using “if” because the sentence following was mere speculation of the religious establishment.”
Jesus is responding to an assertion. In doing so, he chooses to use an “if then” conditional. He is not obligated to use that language. He chose to use that language. I see no problem in following Jesus’ as my model.
“If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves – etc, I will heal their land”. God has no problem using “if-then” conditionals in scripture.
Sorry, I don’t see how the assertion that the use of an “if then” conditional is somehow considered sub-standard or to be shunned isn’t a supercilious red herring.
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August 23, 2017 at 9:34 am
Adrian notes that the concept of God’s foreknowledge being contingent upon human choices which God does not determine in advance. And this is a keen recognition.
“I admit this introduces a difficulty for God is not the author of sin. How does God orchestrate all things, including Pharaoh’s and Judas’s actions without sinning? I don’t know.”
This was the position of many of the Reformed divines and was their way of facing the “author of evil” conundrum which is an unavoidable consequence of Theological Determinism. Their “I don’t know” response was (and in Adrian’s case is) a manifestation of intellectual honesty.
However, William Lane Craig remarks – “When one’s theory concerning God leads them into a logical cul-de-sac such as this one does, its time to question whether our theory is fallacious and whether we end up unwittingly dishonoring God”.
Others in the Reformed tradition are not so intellectually honest as the Reformed divines were. And we have a plethora of dishonest language tricks used to ensnare believers into a form of dishonest double-think. Dishonestly using the terms “allow” and “permit” in regard to God orchestrating all things, are good examples of some of those dishonest language games. However, not for the believer who will hold fast to that which is good – for dishonest language dishonors Jesus.
Thank you Adrian for your good example! :-]
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August 23, 2017 at 10:06 am
br.d:
If / then, is to be shunned when speaking of the mythological Gods. The fact that Jesus used it in no way confirms the existence of the mythological God because the God of Jesus is much different that the Christian attempt to remake the myth Gods by morphing the myths into the One Lump religious God of Abraham. Christians do not understand the God of Jesus and that’s why Christians try to associate the myth God with Jesus but Jesus did not admit that definition of God. And too are therefore using Jesus saying as though that was God speaking…not true.
The definition of Jesus’s God was more in line with the evolution of man as man developed along the evolutionary path into what he is supposed to reflect based on all the attributes nature has endowed him with over the thousands of centuries of survival struggling on earth.
When one operates on the purity of endowment one operates by the God that dwells within you which is not the mythological Gods of the ancients nor is it the mythological Gods of most religious minded people today, Christian or otherwise, because today’s world operates on the forces as they believe are guided by superstition and supernatural entities but that has always been the falsity of religious gods since the year dot. That was not the God that Jesus talked about and called Father over and over again.
You do err greatly in the way of dogma and false teaching. I would accept any model attributed to Jesus but only if you understand the Jesus model without the supernatural glue that holds the myths firmly in place by religious zealots who will continue to deny you access to the truth about the knowledge of Jesus. Re-read Mathew 23 account of the Woe to Ou indictment of the clergy and scholars of the law, the lawyers of textual tradition who raise against Jesus for that very reason Christians now adopt.
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August 23, 2017 at 2:36 pm
Sonfaman writes:
If / then, is to be shunned when speaking of the mythological Gods.
And then
Re-read Mathew 23 account of the Woe to you indictment of the clergy and scholars of the law, the lawyers of textual tradition who raise against Jesus for that very reason Christians now adopt.
Mythological Gods? Sorry, but since this term appears as a new tangent, it just looks like another red herring. Your first post did not specify mythological gods, but asserted a simple condemnation of the use of the “if then” statements which are common in scripture, where you followed with let you yes be yes etc.
On the second point your logic is quite unique! :-]
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August 23, 2017 at 4:11 pm
br.d:
In Post 10 you referenced the mythical God Concept; it wasn’t me.
“…….“If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves – etc, I will heal their land”. God has no problem using “if-then” conditionals in scripture………..”
You introduced the tangent of the mythological God in that statement; if not, then who are you referring to other than a mythical God when you use the term “………God has no problem…..” what God are you talking about if not a mythical entity?
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August 23, 2017 at 5:16 pm
Sonafman,
You must be reading someone else’s post. There is no term “mythical God” in post 10. Or perhaps you consider 2 Chronicles 7:14 to be a statement made by a mythical god? Or perhaps you think the God of scripture is a mythical God.
It really doesn’t matter to me as this dialog is simply irrational. You’re welcome to have the last word, if that is what you’re really concerned about.
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August 23, 2017 at 5:36 pm
I agree that “Knowledge is not a cause.” But did Pharaoh have the choice to “let My people go?” It appears not.
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August 23, 2017 at 6:16 pm
Paul writes:
I agree that “Knowledge is not a cause.” But did Pharaoh have the choice to “let My people go?” It appears not.
That would certainly be a logical consequence of Theological Determinism. As Peter Van Inwagen states: “If Determinism is true, then our thoughts, choices and actions are the inevitable and unavoidable consequences of things determined in the remote past, millennia before we were born, and result in the possibility of only one unique future (i.e., that which is determined).”
In the world of Determinism “alternate possibilities” exist only as human illusions.
However, Theological Determinists try to weasel out of God being the author of sin by pointing out that pharaoh made choices, and is therefore responsible for the choices he made. This appeal is designed to obfuscate the fact that in Theological Determinism, Pharaoh’s choices (as it would be for all creatures) were never up to him. He is merely acting out of those neurological impulses he was determined to have. This appeal would be like blaming a computer software program for making the choices the programmer designed it to make.
Additionally in Theological Determinism all sin is “first conceived” in the mind of the Theos.
Good post Paul! :-]
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August 23, 2017 at 7:41 pm
It is the uniqueness of each individual’s experience and genes that give rise to differing responses to similar situations. I’m not sure to what extent we are free to make choices as we learn strategies to deal with life situations and they are reinforced each time we deem them to have been successful.
The Church Fathers held the view that our nature is good and remains intact despite our bad deeds. Following our nature was considered truly free; going against our nature was considered a weakness related to our feelings of mortality.
Another consideration is that we are prone to addictions like alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, chocolate, sugar, prescription drugs and other drugs that are illegal. These addictions are hard to break, cause repetition without choice and have consequences that further limit our freedom. Those with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder are similarly limited.
Jason, this rumination is very reminiscent of Newcomb’s Paradox which is included in the link below that discusses backward causations:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-backwards/
Peace to all,
Dinos
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August 23, 2017 at 9:28 pm
br.d
Sin like beauty is in the eye of the beholder…..end of story.
No man ever heard from or spoke to any God. Messengers convinced the masses that Messengers had the messages to and from God but that was a wishful thinking and a matter of tradition.
It was like the prophets. The status quo of the religious powerful determined that a prophet was appointed or self appointed and they were the “to go persons” to hear the word of “God” or to ask questions. And they in turn spoke as if they were the spokespersons for God and always began their communications by, The Lord says, or God demands but it never was God, just the tradition of religious hierarchy.
Today the same “prophets, priests preachers” go to school to be commissioned as a man of God, the embodiment of Christ on earth just as they did in the ancient days. Schools sprang up throughout the land as schools to learn the ways of the Lord..they were called Sons of the Prophets Schools, seminary, divinity colleges…..
SONS OF PROPHETS (בְּנֵֽי־הַנְּבִיאִ֥ים). Members of a prophetic order or guild.
This Heb. term occurs eleven times, all during the period of Elijah and especially Elisha, and only in the books of 1 and 2 Kings. The term is a technical one referring to the members of a prophetic order or guild, and has no reference to physical descent from a prophet.
There were several different guilds or branches of the same guild located at various places: (1) at Bethel (2 Kings 2:3), (2) at Jericho (2:5), (3) at Gilgal (4:38), (4) in the hill country of Ephraim (5:22).
They never spoke to God, God never spoke to them, they just said it that way throughout the Old Testament., God this and the Lord that…but that’s just the way they talked about the caricature concept you still call God from the mythology of early mankind. That’s all.
And as for: “14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
That’s someone in the religious tradition saying what they believed and attributing the words to the mythology entity called God.
When Moses wanted to know something about the Lord he went before the “Oracle”, “Messenger”. “Prophet” to hear the word and so the oracle of God, not really God, said to Moses to take a directive and began this way:
Exodus 7:8-10
8Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9″When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, Work a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.'” 10So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.…”
The miracle of the Lord was simply a magic trick from the Elder that the court magicians mastered also and Pharaoh kicked Moses and Aaron out of the palace.
And as for: “14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
The Lord never commanded or said anything, it was the elder, the prophet, the priest, the preacher, the oracle who directed the masses in the same the Elder directed Moses saying it was the Lord, and simply attributed it as The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron. God is just a metaphor for some unseen, unknown entity; it’s called “make believe”; it’s a kid’s game. Ancient man played life as a kid’s game for Law and Order…God’s Law of course by the Order of Man’s Religious Council..the Religious School and the very first four Commandments are Religious Decrees, the penalty for transgressing is death. Religion had a deathly grip on the masses, always has and still does in many countries. Beware of being accused of being a witch in Saudi….
By the way; there’s a typo in post 12 “the lawyers of textual tradition who railed (not raise) against Jesus for that very reason Christians now adopt.
“It really doesn’t matter to me as this dialog is simply irrational.” Your ancestors said the same about Jesus
You see Jesus spoke to the religious community in the same way I am speaking to you and they just didn’t get it. They said Jesus was “irrational” had a demon, was insane, why listen to him?…Even Jesus’s family: “…….Mark 3: 21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
John 10:19-20King James Version (KJV)
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
“It really doesn’t matter to me as this dialog is simply irrational.” Really?
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August 23, 2017 at 9:32 pm
Dino’s:
Welcome back. Hope you mom remains in good care. It’s been months.
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August 25, 2017 at 11:58 am
Leadership and Covenants (Part Eight)
by John W. Ritenbaugh
Forerunner, “Personal,” March-April 2017
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/1738/Leadership-Covenants-Part-Eight.htm
From the above article by John W. Ritenbaugh:
Humanity’s Resident Evil
Jesus says in Matthew 9:12-13: “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance” (see Mark 2:17; Luke 5:31-32). Everyone—and that term is all-inclusive—whom the Father draws to Christ for spiritual salvation is not good but spiritually sick, a sinner. Additionally, the word “repentance” implies that those brought to Christ for forgiveness and salvation do not possess goodness but are evil, since only those spiritually enabled to see the need to repent would come to Him for spiritual healing. “Good” people would not.
In Romans 3:10-18, Paul adds emphasis to the exposé of mankind’s character:
There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
This passage is a major indictment of mankind. Notice the terms he uses—“none” and “all,” that is, none is good, all are evil. David, the author of Psalm 14 from which Paul drew Romans 3:10-18, believed this truth a thousand years before the apostle, and in Psalm 14, David attributes this declaration to God Himself. Do we dare accuse God of lying about those He created?
Matthew 19:17 is exceptionally clear: “So [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Jesus is plainly stating that, since God is the only One who is good, no one among all humanity can truly claim to possess goodness. No one’s goodness rises anywhere near the level of God’s goodness. Jesus, however, then explained to the rich young ruler what he needed to do. As God in the flesh, He knew what the young man needed to do to get on the road to godly goodness, so He taught Him.
Matthew 7:9-11 contains a startling portrayal of mankind’s resident evil:
Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him?
Mankind is evil! In this case, Jesus did not use evil to indicate “essential wicked character,” but more along the lines of “given to do acts of wicked conduct,” indicating an inclination. Though unconverted and not specifically sanctified to be created in God’s image, a worldly person can on occasion do a good thing. Some uncalled people do them consistently. However, doing some good things now and then does not make an individual good by nature. Thus, doing good does not signify that a person is a called, sanctified, and converted child of God.
Jesus explains the root of mankind’s problem in Matthew 15:16-20:
Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
The heart of man is inclined to evil by nature, which is why humanity has behaved as it has throughout history. Jesus clearly exposes the basic evil nature of the heart of man, so the good it does is sufficient neither for carrying out the responsibilities God has laid on those He has sanctified nor for salvation itself. The human heart needs to be changed through a new creation, the spiritual workmanship of the holy God. This new creation is not merely a repair job like fixing a flat tire. The generator of goodness must be good within itself; goodness must be its essential nature.
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August 25, 2017 at 2:54 pm
THAT “The heart of man is inclined to evil by nature……” is a foundation pillar of Church Dogma tyranny that uses fear and guilt to keep mankind in thrall. This is one of the main reasons religion will fall into disrepute and incredulity as has been trending for sometime now and will begin exponential critical mass downfall in the very, very near future as the new earth and new heaven takes exponential root…Goodby ancient mythology, Religion was and is the devil’s dupe.
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August 26, 2017 at 2:21 pm
God being all knowing doesn’t necessarily mean our choices are not free. What indicates our choices are not free is the fact that NOWHERE in the Bible does it actually say we have free will, coupled with the MANY passages that indicate God plans EVERYTHING, even our very steps:
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything to its proper end. [Not just some things…”EVERYTHING.”]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails.
• Proverbs 20:24 A person’s steps are directed by the LORD.
• John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them. [That means only God decides who will be saved and who won’t.]
• Acts 13:48 and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God were appointed to do so.]
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.
• Romans 9:19-21 “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?”
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps.
• Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death, captivity to those destined for captivity, and the sword to those destined for the sword.
• Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him?
• Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass.
• Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? [People don’t cause disaster unless God makes them do it.]
• Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.”
• Psalm 37:23 A man’s steps are established by the LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [Only an evil God would delight in establishing a man’s steps to take the wrong path.]
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Furthermore, if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he could create ANY universe. And if people can make choices (whether or not free will exists), then it MUST be possible for them to make the right decisions (otherwise the choice doesn’t exist). An all-knowing God would know which of the infinite variety of universes he could create would result in people making the right choices, and being all powerful he could have chosen to create one of THOSE universes. But he didn’t. He chose the one where he KNEW Lucifer would choose to rebel, where he KNEW Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, where he KNEW humanity would become wicked and deserve drowning, and where he KNEW he would send billions of people to suffer in hell for all eternity. Therefore he must have WANTED all these events to happen…because otherwise he would have chosen to create one of the other possible universes. This is the INESCAPABLE consequence of an omnipotent and omniscient God, isn’t it?
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August 26, 2017 at 2:41 pm
If you are truly free why do you have to believe? You are not truly free, that’s why you believe. Only knowledge can set you free, belief never can. Jesus came to set you free and get you out of the religious rut of tyranny, oppression guilt and fear
That’s why they tried corner him, arrest him, seize and kill Jesus; he stepped on their big pretentious toes and the religious hated having their religious pretentious toes stepped on by the truth and knowledge by those they saw as their minions.
Jesus was no minion for the dominion of religion…Read Chapter 23 of Mathew The Great Indictment of religion by Jesus; the entire chapter is devoted to the indictment and John chapter 7:1 tell you what religious leaders wanted to do to Jesus and 7:7 tell you why the religious zealots sought to corner him, arrest, seize and kill him.
Yes he wanted to save you but you cannot be saved unless Jesus’s message can wrench you away from certain death be the religious drug of Absolute Certainty…their religion is good, your religion is better but my religion….my religious is best. This is the shocking truth of the single, comparative and superlative of religious Absolute Certainty.
And who can argue against Jesus? That’s all Jesus ever wanted to say to you in order to try to save you from……………..religion…believe the knowledge.
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August 26, 2017 at 7:23 pm
Found Derekmathias response in order. It appears humans are pet animals or even worse slaves of a predetermined destiny ,but yet that predetermined destiny excluded a final escape route for him – because humans have limitations in physiology which renders it impossible for him to escape any cataclysmic events on earth and transport and transfer to another world in space, but many of the severe events are man made such as climate change and overpopulation, but geological cataclysms are not – but both contribute to a predetermined destiny
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August 26, 2017 at 10:24 pm
Predetermined destiny is in the mindset of man because of his environment and the days of old wives tales and the attitude of …”well, that’s the way things are”…..; it was even more so “determined” in the days of cave living and restricted mobility…but things have changed and the imagination has begun broaden its scope to newer and unforeseen horizons with the advance of the telescope, the microscope, the Hubble scope. Everybody lived in the dark until daylight and then until fire and then until candles and lamps and lights, before which it was determined that you lived in caves, in darkness except by moonlight
And the greater the imagination soars, the greater old traditions of “the way it is” diminishes………but never without a fight……The Scribes were wailing when the printing presses came, the horse traders and blacksmiths wailed against the Iron Horse train and then the automobile and coal miners wail against solar and wind energy and their champion Donald Trump wails against globalization so he wants to build a Wall, just as real estate developers wailed against the developers who pioneered high-rises over single family plots of land.
Religion is a big ship and big ships hate speedboats that run round circles around them.
By the time the sun becomes a red giant where do you think humans will be, awaiting a certain vaporization on your knees praying for mercy to a caricature your ancestors conjured up and proved with sleight of hand magic tricks or will humans be already migrating out into the universe living in other places? Religion will have you believe the former; common sense the latter.
Ancient zealots gave attributes to their caricature concept that defied everybody’s imagination but in this day and age religion is being called out for the most incredible stupidities ever thought up… But the Good News is, religion is dying and that end began with the revolutionary known as Jesus AKA the Christ.
And the Preachers are modern day blacksmiths wailing about losing their job peddling ridiculous omnipotence and omniscience attributes making the world believe that the author of pre-destiny and human determination has a special interest in human beings especially when he is naked, more so than everything else in the cosmos.
Today’s zealots are pushing the ancient drug of Absolute Certainty that common sense avoids and the world no longer wants. No more will lives be controlled by ludicrous stupidities of hocus locus, poof it’s there and poof it’s gone magic tricks called miracles like special effects in a Hollywood heavyweight movie.
And the wailing is not over yet; it is sliding down into the underworld from whence it sprang. Get over it.
Stop wailing about losing your job; you lost the argument now move forward surge with renewed energy and a brighter future and a will to make it happen whether it’s free or not, it doesn’t matter; what is, is! If you want to go to heaven then you build it here on earth because the concept of heaven is in the mind wherein resides the Kingdom. Said Jesus, the Kingdom does not come with observation, the Kingdom is within you. So bring it out in the open where it be seen and enjoyed by other members of humanity.
The truth is that religion takes away free will, locks in their shackles and turns you into a robot of protocol void of discernment and unable to exercise discretionary insight.
Is man one of God’s blunders? Or is God one of man’s blunders?
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August 26, 2017 at 10:50 pm
Thoughts of others:
God is a thought who makes crooked all that is straight.
Is man God’s greatest blunder or is God man’s greatest blunder?
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August 27, 2017 at 8:24 am
William Lane Craig:
Universal, divine determinism makes reality into a farce.
On the deterministic view, the whole world becomes a vain and empty spectacle. There are no free agents in rebellion against God, whom God seeks to win through His love, and no one who freely responds to that love and freely gives his love and praise to God in return. The whole spectacle is a charade whose only real actor is God Himself.
Far from glorifying God, the deterministic view, I’m convinced, denigrates God for engaging in a such a farcical charade. It is deeply insulting to God to think that He would create beings which are in every respect causally determined by Him and then treat them as though they were free agents, punishing them for the wrong actions He made them do or loving them as though they were freely responding agents.
God would be like a child who sets up his toy soldiers and moves them about his play world, pretending that they are real persons whose every motion is not in fact of his own doing and pretending that they merit praise or blame. I’m certain that Reformed determinists, in contrast to classical Reformed divines, will bristle at such a comparison. But why it’s inapt for the doctrine of universal, divine, causal determinism is a mystery to me.
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August 27, 2017 at 9:22 am
br.d
William Lane Craig agrees exactly with me and me with him. Only Craig expresses it in more eloquent academia intelligence than I express in it in terms of a more crass elemental way though the different expressions are on par nonetheless.
I would prefer that Craig used a phrase like the “created caricature concept” called God; or, the “imaginative entity of make believe” they called God. Using the God term as though it was actually existant but inadequately explained doesn’t cut it for me.
The mythological Gods can be reasonably dismissed as conjured in one’s nightly dreams; however, morphing them into the Abrahamic God lends itself no more to credibility in the belief of its existence than the mythical fantasies of Neptune, Zeus, Saturn, Ra of Egypt and Brahman of Hinduism.
The Gods were and are merely expressions of human concepts so what’s the problem with saying it like it is? This clearly is the Absolute Certainty of the created caricature concepts of man nest ce pas?
But NO preachers and wannabe messengers want to run with the make believe into tangential divinity doctrinal waters according to the congregation they would carve out of society already predisposed to doctrinal duping and led astray by strange doctrine, old fables, and falsehoods with unprofitable arguing and niggling over the law. That is so much fun the clever is it not?
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August 27, 2017 at 11:04 am
Hi SonofMan,
I see your emphasis now concerning the point that whatever concept of a deity is merely, what Paul would call “Kata Sarka” or “Kata Demonios” (originating from the flesh or originating from a dark spirit), could be classified as a “mythical” god.
I can’t speak for Dr. Craig on why he chooses not to go there. But perhaps it is because it simply opens the way for a “tu quo que” which leads nowhere.
Believer (A) asserts his conception is “Kata Pneumatos” (originating from the Holy Spirit & scripture) and that Believer (B)’s is not. Believer (B) asserts the same back.
Since no man has reached perfection, it would make sense that we all have some degree of false conceptions in what we see as “the true god”.
I think its wisdom to acknowledge that all of us are vulnerable to conceiving god after our own image.
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August 27, 2017 at 1:18 pm
“Far from glorifying God, the deterministic view, I’m convinced, denigrates God for engaging in a such a farcical charade. It is deeply insulting to God to think that He would create beings which are in every respect causally determined by Him and then treat them as though they were free agents, punishing them for the wrong actions He made them do or loving them as though they were freely responding agents.”
It would be an appeal to the consequences fallacy to say that divine determinism is wrong simply because one doesn’t like the implications it would have for God’s character. One should let the evidence lead to the conclusion, rather than the conclusion dictate the evidence.
“God would be like a child who sets up his toy soldiers and moves them about his play world, pretending that they are real persons whose every motion is not in fact of his own doing and pretending that they merit praise or blame. ”
But if those passages I posted in my previous comment are true, then there is no room for free will in a world where God determines our very steps. It means he is indeed like a child playing with toy soldiers. So either the Bible is wrong or God is malevolent…neither of which is palatable for Christianity.
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August 27, 2017 at 2:25 pm
In Luke 16 Jesus asks the lawyer 2 questions:
1) What does the scripture say?
2) How do you read it?
Biblical Scholars have long known that bible readers “read it” in such a way as to affirm what extra-biblical conceptions they hold as truth. That is – the bible reader who believes that scripture affirms truth and does not affirm falsehoods, will find in scripture, verses which affirm what he believes to be unquestionable truth.
An excellent example, are those theologians who, during the time when it was widely held as unquestionable truth, the sun orbited around the earth, or believed as unquestionable truth the earth was flat, – they would open the data of scripture and low and behold – that is “how they would read it”.
This is called confirmation bias. And its an unavoidable condition of the human mind.
If you are convinced the proposition of a flat earth is false. And you are convinced the proposition that the sun orbits the earth is false, then you are not going to go data-mining in scripture to find verses that affirm those concepts, because scripture doesn’t affirm that which is false. But if you believe those things are true, you are guaranteed to find verses in scripture to affirm them.
So when someone quotes scripture verses and asserts they unquestionably affirm X, the wisdom of Jesus is best taken into consideration.
If someone can indoctrinate you into embracing certain propositions as unquestionable truth – (such as Theological Determinism), then that is “how you will read it”. And one may perhaps be convinced that god is deceiving others who don’t read the way he does – because it couldn’t possibly be the case that what he has been indoctrinated to believe could be wrong.
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August 27, 2017 at 3:39 pm
“If you are convinced the proposition of a flat earth is false. And you are convinced the proposition that the sun orbits the earth is false, then you are not going to go data-mining in scripture to find verses that affirm those concepts, because scripture doesn’t affirm that which is false. But if you believe those things are true, you are guaranteed to find verses in scripture to affirm them.”
Exactly. Since very few Christians will consider the possibility that the God of the Bible is evil, they will automatically ignore any scripture that makes such an indication, or at least creatively interpret it to mean the opposite of what it actually says. Usually it’s only former Christians who are able to read the Bible with both perspectives and minimize confirmation bias.
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August 27, 2017 at 4:14 pm
That’s fine – just as long as one is humble enough to acknowledge it works both ways. When we bump into someone who insists he has the golden standard – we are simply witnessing a lack of Christian maturity.
Bible scholars who take that position soon find their scholarly peers will throw their writings in the trash, instead of considering them, because the vessel is simply untrustworthy.
Blessings!
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August 28, 2017 at 12:24 am
A false dichotomy. A third option exists: “you do not understand”‘
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August 28, 2017 at 2:03 pm
Such is common to man – we are all in that boat.
All except those who claim to have reached perfection! :-]
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August 28, 2017 at 2:26 pm
and those who do understand.
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August 28, 2017 at 2:43 pm
br.d
As to your comment “I think its wisdom to acknowledge that all of us are vulnerable to conceiving god after our own image.”
Here is how one wise man put it:
There cannot be a God because if there were one, I could not believe that I was not He. Friedrich Nietzsche
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August 28, 2017 at 4:45 pm
And those who imagine they do. :-]
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August 29, 2017 at 12:34 am
Who are in a different category to those who understand.
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August 29, 2017 at 12:49 am
The bible agrees, outside Christ we are idolatrous by nature, creating gods of our imagination. Martin Luther said sin is pregnant with idolatry. That’s why we must, by gift of God, through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, have a change of mind, metanoia. Nietzsche had an artificial view of God because he did not know God. His idea on ubermensch were born from a high view of himself, his intellect and philosophies. His seminal work, Thus Said Therasustra, is a classic precursor to the philosophy of Marxism. Interestingly, it was the work one Austrian paper hanger gave to three of his friends in the 20s. That Austrian was one Adolf Hitler. Of course we have proclivities to imagine all kinds of things but imaginings do not change that which is true.
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August 29, 2017 at 1:17 am
Rebel With A Cause:
The bible cannot agree with anybody; the bible is not a person.
Religion claims that we are idolatrous by nature, creating Gods of our imaginations. All gods are indeed created imaginations but that we are idolatrous by nature; that is to say, guilt ridden slobs is a religious dogma to denigrate and render inferior the masses.
Nietzsche had an artificial view of God because all created Gods are artificial constructs. The only god that Jesus recognized was the one he called Father and that was a bundle of everything a human is made of. We don’t have to teach the stomach to digest food or how to operate its immune system all of those things are what the god in a man is by natural environmental influence and evolutionary processes…
All there is of God is available to the man who is available to all there is of God because all there is, is what you are born with, anomalies notwithstanding, of god that dwells within you as Jesus messaged in Luke 17:20,21. God never was an external entity as the ancients claimed and Christian doctrine adheres too. That idea was way too out to lunch for Jesus and he was very clear about the Father as he campaigned against religion and the artificial laws and gods he worshipped out of tradition, managed by religious zealots, spoiling the natural and all things beautiful.
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August 29, 2017 at 9:07 am
Or at least imagine they are :-]
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August 29, 2017 at 11:21 am
That’s not what the Bible says.
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August 29, 2017 at 11:24 am
For sure.
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September 14, 2017 at 10:45 am
To derekmathias, regarding post #23. Your post stuck out to me as I was reading through this today.
I see why you think there is no free will based on the many versus you quoted. However, I think you are reading into them the notion that we have no free will.
I don’t time to go through every single verse so I will pick one to demonstrate my point.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them. [That means only God decides who will be saved and who won’t.]
This verse is akin to the false theology of predestination where God walks down the street and assigns people to their final destination …..Hell, Heaven, Hell, Hell, Heaven, Heaven …etc.. I
I heard one preacher call our inability to choose God total human depravity and our ability to choose God as irresistible grace….what a bunch of bunk.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
In John 12:32, we see that Jesus draws all men to Himself not just a select few. So John 12:32 is how John 6:44 happens.
So it’s God that is drawing all men to Himself through Christ. It’s God who is standing at the door and knocking. Some respond and open the door and others don’t.
and John 3:16 says that God so loved the world, that’s everybody.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
If there was no free will the idea of “whosoever believes” makes no logical sense at all. The whole idea of preaching the gospel is also a waste of time and makes no sense. Everything breaks down and you have total nonsense.
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose free will.
Rush (Freewill)
Cheers !
Naz
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September 14, 2017 at 11:01 am
I appreciated this post Naz – thank you.
I would add that the philosophical positions: Theological Fatalism and Theological Determinism – are modal twins, sharing many of the same logical consequences.
Both having “predestined” human-will. Both having human thoughts/choices, first-conceived/determined by the THEOS millennia before each person is born. In that model, our thoughts/choices are not up to us – since they were fixed in the past which we are powerless to alter – and since they occur as our unavoidable fate.
On the Calvinistic terms: “Total Depravity” and “Irresistible Grace” – these are euphemistic terms designed to camouflage the fact that everything is “Total” and everything is “Irresistible” in Calvin’s model. More accurate terms would be “Predestined Irresistible Total Depravity” and “Predestined Irresistible Grace”.
Blessings and thanks Naz! :-]
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September 14, 2017 at 12:20 pm
Your welcome br,d !
Blessings to you also.
Naz
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September 14, 2017 at 12:25 pm
@br.d:
More precisely, the mistake is called The Modal Fallacy. As the link demonstrates, it’s a very common fallacy. Those in the theological determinism camp often fall into it when trying to make their claims intelligible (without realizing, of course, that they’re muddying the waters).
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September 14, 2017 at 1:46 pm
“This verse is akin to the false theology of predestination where God walks down the street and assigns people to their final destination …..Hell, Heaven, Hell, Hell, Heaven, Heaven …etc.. ”
But who says that’s false? I mean, it doesn’t sound appealing, but that’s exactly what those verses imply.
“So it’s God that is drawing all men to Himself through Christ. It’s God who is standing at the door and knocking. Some respond and open the door and others don’t.”
It’s not a contradiction with all the passages indicating that God plans everything, since God drawing everyone would be an example of him planning and controlling everything. But I would read John 12:32 as indicating Jesus will draw all those whom God has ALREADY chosen to be saved. Otherwise, what’s the point of John 6:44? That passage is a conditional statement that indicates there are those who are not drawn. Otherwise, what’s the point of that passage even existing at all?
“John 3:16 says that God so loved the world, that’s everybody.”
Yes, and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” And 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” The Bible also claims God is good, and so on. But actions speak louder than words, and for that reason I pay much more attention to God’s behavior than what he says about himself.
Think about it…if he REALLY wanted everyone to be saved, why wouldn’t he just do it? If he forgives all humanity, then all humanity should be saved automatically, no need to require people to murder Jesus for forgiveness to occur. After all, since when has forgiving someone even required that they ACCEPT that forgiveness? And even if someone doesn’t accept that forgiveness, is it reasonable to punish them severely for that?
“If there was no free will the idea of “whosoever believes” makes no logical sense at all. The whole idea of preaching the gospel is also a waste of time and makes no sense. Everything breaks down and you have total nonsense.”
On the contrary, I think it makes perfect sense if God plays with humanity in much the same way a child plays with toy soldiers. He decides who will live (or believe) and who will die (or disbelieve). And preaching the Gospel IS a waste of time from the perspective of an all-knowing and all-powerful God. After all, proselytizing is incredibly inefficient, guaranteed to get lost in the thousands of religions that exist in the world. Many will ignore the Gospel simply because they have no way of distinguishing the validity of Christianity over any other religion. People can’t make informed decisions without all the evidence, so if God really wanted EVERYONE to come to him, he would simply make everyone AUTOMATICALLY believe he exists without question. THEN we could choose whether or not to follow him. But as it stands right now, there are literally BILLIONS of people throughout history who have had only a vague awareness of Christianity and no compelling reason to believe it over the religions they have been taught. Indeed, Christianity is SHRINKING in the US, largely because of a lack of belief that it’s true. Relying on word of mouth and a Bible that is a translation of a translation only guarantees that most people will end up damned…and through no fault of their own.
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September 14, 2017 at 2:12 pm
Yes, I agree!! :-]
Great link btw!
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September 14, 2017 at 2:23 pm
I shall impart the wisdom of Jesus concerning this not so complicated issue at a time more convenient than now.
Please stand by.
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September 14, 2017 at 2:33 pm
“This verse………”
But who says that’s false? I mean, it doesn’t sound appealing, but that’s exactly what those verses imply.
This brings up an interesting topic for discussion – not sure the web-master here would want us to deviate to it. But it raises the topic of how the human brain interprets data.
In Luke 16 Jesus asks the lawyer who tempts him 2 questions:
– What does the scripture say?
– How do you read it?
If you read the narrative, the lawyer appears to dodge Jesus’ 2nd question. But it appears Jesus understands the human brain is subjective in how it interprets data. And agenda-based interpretation may be what Jesus was highlighting with his 2nd question.
The bible believer holds that scripture affirms truth and not falsehood. So the bible reader is not going to go data-mining looking for verses which affirm what he believes is false. But he will data-mine scripture looking for verses which affirm what he embraces as truth. Where this becomes dangerous is when his truth is actually false and he yet finds verses to affirm it.
Hence, a time in which theologians embracing a geocentric model (sun orbits earth) as unquestionable truth, found verses in scripture to affirm it. And were willing to persecute and maybe even murder you if you disagreed.
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September 15, 2017 at 6:59 am
br.d, very good….. I like your thoughts on this and I agree that we can read into scripture the interpretation we want if we are not careful.
We must take the totality of scripture and context to come to a proper understanding and not base our interpretation of an idea in a vacuum of one scripture passage.
I think everyone knows what the scriptures “say” but I don’t think everyone knows what the scriptures “mean”.
Naz
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September 15, 2017 at 8:04 am
Only man needs to “know” the process; the process “just is” and requires no knowledge to affirm the process; that’s man’s way because man is not the process man is the result of, the consequence of the Life Forces and needs to know them to understand how they work and so he seeks and searches to find meaning for his existence.
The aspect of knowing and niggling about it, is a philosophical pastime for jigsaw puzzled minds to unravel with something called logic and reason and ends up like the dog circling the hole but just can’t jump into it because the dog doesn’t know what lies in the hole and fears it, yet zealously desires to explore and he runs around in fashionable academia circles trying to derive from it their philosophical perspectives.
Jesus described the Life Force(s) and referred to “them”, “it”, as “Father”.
There’s no eternal life to be found in the bible. I believe the bible from cover to cover, I believe it to be divinely inspired, I believe it is authored by the holy ghost but with a heck of a lot of man ideas and notions based on materialism and what ancient man perceived the world around them to be or represent. But there’s no eternal life to be found in the bible. Said the Lord Jesus:
“These scriptures are they that testify of me and you will not come to me that you might have life.” So you’ve got a bible you study and you flatter yourself on your biblical scholarship. You derive from it your theological and philosophical propositions but you examine that book without any revelation of the one who authored it and you fail to recognize the one of whom it testifies and because you will not come to me, that in me you might have that life that only I can give you, you’ve got a dead bible and a dead religion and it won’t be long before you have a dead Christ because you see if you study the bible long enough without coming to the one of whom it speaks you’ll crucify him.
And when somebody tries to tell you that the life Forces within you is the Father you’ll call him crazy just as they called Jesus crazy and out of his mind.
Said the Lord Jesus, your word is truth. It contains those vital principles that must govern man’s relationship to God and God’s relationship to man. Sanctify them Father, through this truth. As thou Father has sent me into the world even so have I sent them into the world. Because Father when I came into the world, by agreement, between yourself, myself and the holy spirit, I deliberately stepped out of eternity into time, I came from heaven to earth and I assumed their humanity. That those principles Father that we designed should govern man’s relationship to God and God’s relationship to man should be operable. In my humanity Father in terms of my relationship to you and your relationship to me. And so for their sakes Father, having been born a human being, have assumed their flesh and blood for their sakes, I sanctify myself that they also may be sanctified through the truth because if they can’t grasp the truth, if they can’t just understand what it’s all about Father, all they have to do is look at me. And they’ll see demonstrated in my humanity and in my disposition Father that I adopt toward you that let’s you be God in the man, they’ll understand at last that I one day, as God, will demand to be God in them, they’ll know the truth. He sanctified himself.
How? next post…………..
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September 15, 2017 at 2:55 pm
derekmathias, I would like to respond to some of your comments. I appreciate your honesty and I will admit that there are some verses that definitely sound like God is the Master puppeteer and we are the puppets. However, I don’t believe the totality of scripture can support this notion based on my current understanding.
As for John 6:44, I would say that surely no one can come to God apart from the drawing of God’s Spirit but that doesn’t mean that God draws some people and others He does not. If that was the case, there would be no reason for Jesus to rebuke the crowds for their unbelief. They could simply respond and say, “Hey Jesus it’s not my fault, the Father didn’t draw me ! ” We don’t see any scripture anywhere where people are crying wolf and blaming God for their inability or reluctance to believe in Christ.
For the drawing to be effective it must be met with a receiving on the other end. God is not going to force Himself on you, He is too much of a gentleman to do that. When the scripture says “that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father”, it is implying 2 things :
1) We cannot come to God based on our own intellect or intelligence. In other words, we could never “figure it out” on our own apart from God’s leading or drawing. No amount of free will could ever bring us to the knowledge of God. To think so is the epitome of human arrogance.
2) Those that reject Jesus Christ are not responding to the drawing of God and therefore cannot receive anything from God. Their rejection is the same as if God never drew them in the first place which is where we would all be if Christ did not come.
Take an every day example, when you reject that person that comes to your front door selling something, you could say that they never compelled you enough to buy it. But you cannot say they never tried to sell you something, because they tried and failed. In the end they did not draw you to buy what they were selling.
Furthermore, the very next verse, verse 65 is interesting …
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
Notice the usage of the word “all” in “they shall all be taught of God”. I think this verse reveals or implies that not all people who have been taught of God will necessarily come to God but only the ones that have learned. Learning takes believing and receiving.
Naz
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September 15, 2017 at 10:06 pm
Naz:
“………No amount of free will could ever bring us to the knowledge of God. To think so is the epitome of human arrogance…………”
But that was the type of thing religious zealots and clerics of the day said to Jesus…”he has a demon(human arrogance)”,,,”he is crazy(human arrogance)”..his own family said “He is out of his mind(human arrogance)”.
Because Jesus understood the Life Force operating within every human and nobody else could ………….. a person’s own spirit-ego, free-to-do-as-they-please human freedom was basically the rule of the day and everybody played; well, at least almost everybody except for some insightful persons who had an understanding about some other entity; aka, the life force within, which few people paid attention to anyway until the Revolutionist, Jesus, came along with the clarity of Christ Clear Common Sense and communicated that clarity to the crowds insomuch as they were astonished by his teaching.
When righteous words of wisdom touch a nerve in the common sense network of the seeker, it triggers a powerful system called knowledge a priori..this is the point you believe the words or reject the words…..but it not merely belief; it is belief that triggers a knowledge connected to the Life Force but that belief is no longer a real belief and perhaps is the knowledge Jason used to explain that knowledge is justified true belief; or, that justified true belief is knowledge.
Perhaps it is from the perspective as noted……in which case if that definition applied, it may very well prove to be accurate but never explained in quite the same way.
You may find this rather nebulous; don’t be alarmed, it is!
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September 18, 2017 at 8:06 am
Leo, Jesus is not arrogant. The arrogance that I am talking about is of the fleshly type that operates in opposition or independent from the Holy Spirit. It’s a work of the flesh and not motivated by the Spirit.
With regards to “belief” and “knowledge”, the faith or belief that justifies is not head knowledge. The knowledge is the knowing of who Christ is, what He did and what it means for us. Placing faith or belief in that is an act of trusting and dependence on Him, it is not a hidden head knowledge for the elect few who have been enlightened while the rest of us are in the dark.
Those that have believed in Christ according to the scriptures have the resurrection life of Christ living inside them and they can never die or lose this life since it is eternal life. This life does not operate in every person but only the ones that have received Christ.
You may find this nebulous, but don’t be alarmed if this is true because it is !
Naz
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September 18, 2017 at 1:55 pm
Naz:
What you are really saying, instead of “Those that have believed in Christ according to the scriptures” is what you are not saying is “according to the scriptures by whose interpretation”?
It isn’t enough to say according to the scriptures and just leave it at that, that’s the church’s way of talking to others to keep them quiet from asking questions.
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September 18, 2017 at 4:22 pm
“I will admit that there are some verses that definitely sound like God is the Master puppeteer and we are the puppets. However, I don’t believe the totality of scripture can support this notion based on my current understanding.”
Well, any current understanding cannot dismiss those passages simply because they don’t fit with the desired narrative, correct?
“but that doesn’t mean that God draws some people and others He does not. If that was the case, there would be no reason for Jesus to rebuke the crowds for their unbelief.”
Then what would be the point of John 6:44 being worded the way it is…or even included at all? To me, the key word there is “unless.” That has to mean that some people are not drawn, otherwise it would say something like, “Everyone can come to me because the Father draws them.”
And Jesus would rebuke the crowds for their unbelief for the same reason the Bible is full of examples saying one must make the right “choice” to follow God. Having the capacity to make choices doesn’t necessitate free will if someone or something directs which choice you will makes. Just as ants can make choices based on input without possessing free will. Even a computer can be programmed to make choices. Who hasn’t rebuked a computer for doing what you don’t want, even though it’s only doing what it was programmed to do?
“God is not going to force Himself on you, He is too much of a gentleman to do that.”
I don’t think the Bible corroborates that claim. After all, God forces people (either directly or through coercion) numerous times. Just a few examples:
• Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.”
• Romans 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
• 1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet.
If people don’t believe in him because they don’t see evidence for him, isn’t it incumbent upon God to provide that unquestionable evidence to each and every person? That’s not “forcing” himself on you, that’s merely informing you so you are capable of making an educated decision. Without that, how can anyone be blamed for believing in Allah, Vishnu, Osiris, Cthulhu, the FSM or no gods at all? How could a just God send someone to hell just because of their belief (or lack thereof)? After all, belief isn’t a choice. If it were, we could make ourselves believe in Santa Claus or not believe in God (try to do it for just five minutes…it won’t work).
And the Bible DOES say God wants EVERYONE to be saved:
• 1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
So is there any rational reason why a good God wouldn’t make everyone fully aware of his existence so that they can at least know what’s true and make informed decisions based on that?
“We cannot come to God based on our own intellect or intelligence. In other words, we could never “figure it out” on our own apart from God’s leading or drawing. No amount of free will could ever bring us to the knowledge of God.”
Then wouldn’t a good God GIVE us that knowledge? It’s the ONLY way for him to achieve his goal of everyone being saved. This is critical to Christianity, yet it’s mentioned nowhere in the Bible…which is supposed to be our manual for salvation.
“Those that reject Jesus Christ are not responding to the drawing of God and therefore cannot receive anything from God. Their rejection is the same as if God never drew them in the first place which is where we would all be if Christ did not come.”
Ask anyone who grew up with and believes in any other religion (or no religion) if they rejected Jesus, and you’ll find that virtually none of them did…they simply don’t believe he exists. If God is all knowing, then he knows EXACTLY what it will take to convince everyone that he exists. What would be the point of the charade of proselytizing or distributing the Bible when that fails most of the time?
“Take an every day example, when you reject that person that comes to your front door selling something, you could say that they never compelled you enough to buy it. But you cannot say they never tried to sell you something, because they tried and failed. In the end they did not draw you to buy what they were selling.”
True…but if they couldn’t even show you the product exists, you would be right to not be compelled to buy the product, don’t you think?
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September 18, 2017 at 4:36 pm
“Placing faith or belief in that is an act of trusting and dependence on Him, it is not a hidden head knowledge for the elect few who have been enlightened while the rest of us are in the dark.”
The disturbing part here for me is that the ONE thing every false religion is going to have in common is making faith a virtue…because obviously clear, undeniable evidence isn’t going to support a false religion.
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September 18, 2017 at 6:55 pm
derekmathias:
The scriptures can be explained by our own mimicking justice system. The Judge may rebuke all the people who are brought to s/he and given the riot act about the straight and narrow,,,,,,some will listen, pay attention and turn their life around; others, will not and become what is know in the Justice system as recidivists.
Nevertheless the Judge wants that everybody would be saved. Ahhhhh but that is the way of the world. A lot of scriptural references are actually metaphorical and uses the caricature concept of the invisible Judge to admonish and correct those who stray from the path of righteousness. Very few people go to jail for a first time offense unless the offense is a capital offense or an intolerable act. But they will end up imprisoned if they persist rather than repent. This is the human experience. Some of us heed the word and some of us do not.
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September 18, 2017 at 8:47 pm
Hi!
Whether scriptures are metaphorical or not, we would be foolish to presume that they are God-inspired in their entirety since some are clearly contradictory.
The Jewish people had 613 laws or commandments when Christ was asked which one was the greatest and He paraphrased the Torah:
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,” and; “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
These came from the 4th and 13th laws as they appeared in the Torah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
We are familiar with The Ten Commandments and the sixth, “Thou shalt not kill (murder),” and yet Leviticus 20 deals with crimes for which the punishment is death usually by stoning:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20&version=KJV
People who committed murder were hung in Great Britain until 1965 when capital punishment was abolished for this crime and it was not until 1998 that it was abolished for high treason!
Capital punishment directly contradicts the sixth commandment however you rationalise it, usually by blaming the culprits for necessitating their murder.
Why did the Jews need 613 laws when they were given ten?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 19, 2017 at 5:56 am
Leo, quick reply, when I say “according to the scriptures”, this means the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Christ. It’s not the conspiracy theory version that you promote where Jesus didn’t die.
I never said you can’t ask questions, there are lots of questions but this is the foundation of everything. Without this we wouldn’t even be discussing Jesus or the bible or anything….
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;
Luk 24:46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;
Luk 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Naz
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September 19, 2017 at 7:14 am
derekmathias, good response.
I don’t expect that we will find any common ground, but I’ll reply one last time to respect the time you put it to respond to me.
As John 6:44, just because the word “unless” is used, it doesn’t necessarily mean that God will draw some and others he won’t. Keep in mind, when Jesus spoke verse 44 everyone was still under the old covenant and it was not revealed yet that salvation would be available to Jews and Gentiles. Up to this point only the Jews were the “chosen” ones and the Gentiles were excluded. This is the way it was under the Law in the old covenant. So I think there may be more to this verse than meets the eye. I think it’s reasonable to read your interpretation into this verse and ironically that was the case before the cross where God only drew the Jews to Himself and not the Gentiles, however, we see that the new covenant is a “game changer” and God now draws all men to Himself, Jews and Gentiles. I don’t think we can appreciate what a “big deal” and revelation it was for God to offer salvation to Gentiles. This is a major theme of the new testament writings.
You said,
“If people don’t believe in him because they don’t see evidence for him, isn’t it incumbent upon God to provide that unquestionable evidence to each and every person?”
God has provided unquestionable evidence by sending His Son. There has been nobody in history like Jesus and there never will be. The message of the gospel has been spread for over 2000 years all over the world. Now, if that’s not good enough, I don’t know what to tell you.
You said,
“How could a just God send someone to hell just because of their belief (or lack thereof)?”
God is not “sending” anyone to Hell “because” of anything. We are all going to Hell by default. This is not a “you better believe or else” message. This is a “you have no hope but here is the only way out” message.
You said,
“Then wouldn’t a good God GIVE us that knowledge? It’s the ONLY way for him to achieve his goal of everyone being saved. This is critical to Christianity, yet it’s mentioned nowhere in the Bible…which is supposed to be our manual for salvation. ”
He has given us this knowledge and it’s the main theme of the entire bible even from the beginning to the end. The fact that you have a bible you can read and that you are discussing Jesus proves that the knowledge is there and you have it. The question is what are you going to do with it ? Are you going to bury it in the sand and do nothing or are you going to “invest” in Jesus ?
The knowledge is the gospel which is the death and resurrection of Christ which provides total once and for all forgiveness and a new life as God’s Spirit comes to live in us forever.
Naz
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September 19, 2017 at 8:42 am
Naz:
I do not follow the crowd but here is
One of the most ridiculous statements you ever made:
“……….that was the case before the cross where God only drew the Jews to Himself and not the Gentiles…….
So little understanding about the concept of God; so clearly regurgitating the goal of the men who had no insight or understanding about the God Concept they created for themselves! And certainly no insight into the humanity of Jesus……. like Donald Trump would say “America First”. Can anybody Imagine that God would have said “I only draw Jews to myself”?
That just goes to show how myopic and egotistically self serving the creators of God were. Jesus showed everybody how he himself was fooled by that very selfish sentiment. This was clearly demonstrated when Jesus told the Canaanite woman, who pleaded for help for her sick daughter, that he must reject her prayer to him by saying the Jews not the dogs are privy for consideration.
But the woman’s logic humiliated Jesus into realizing that the haphazard dictates of unfortunate Jewish tradition also had a grip on him and he never realized it. Upon that realization however and did not take him long to see the reasonableness of her request and unreasonableness of the “ME FIRST” mentality of “Food for the Jews, every Jew for himself”; nothing for the gentiles.
Jesus immediately reached out and helped the woman because he was smart enough and had enough common sense to know when he was wrong and his embarrassed response clearly shows that.
You see, the problem with countless, evangelical, born again Christians who give their life to Jesus but never go for a ride; they quite willingly believe the deity of Jesus but fail completely to recognize his humanity…..and justify irrationally the encounter above as “a test of the woman’s faith” but Jesus didn’t reject her “to test her faith”, Jesus rejected her because he had been taught by indoctrination that Jews righteously had no association with Canaanites or Samaritans…the sinners.
However, from that encounter Jesus awakened from his traditional trance and understood the tyranny of religion with a new conviction and then later declared in the below passage the follow up from that awakening:
Mark 2:15-16 Later Jesus and his disciples were at home having supper with a collection of disreputable guests. Unlikely as it seems, more than a few of them had become followers. The religion scholars and Pharisees saw him keeping this kind of company and lit into his disciples: “What kind of example is this, acting cozy with the riffraff?”
17 Jesus, overhearing, shot back, “Who needs a doctor: the healthy or the sick? I’m here inviting the sin-sick, not the spiritually-fit.”
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September 19, 2017 at 9:00 am
Have been reading with great interest, great discussion with much articulation. But Surprising that hell is embodiment of evil even the creation of it (for whatever reason) is. In spontaneous creation everything was created by the one and only power. The devil might dwell but he did not build hell. The building of a hell is evil work because it is contemplation of an infrastructure to handle a certain situation.This situation is predestined with a “unless “precondition .Sadly there is a duality because when there is preparation for an effect even before the cause, then the effect and cause becomes one. Sadly the gentiles were made to pay the price …….,and then came the Messiah
On Sep 19, 2017 19:44, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> Naz commented: “derekmathias, good response. I don’t expect that we will > find any common ground, but I’ll reply one last time to respect the time > you put it to respond to me. As John 6:44, just because the word “unless” > is used, it doesn’t necessarily mean that G” >
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September 19, 2017 at 10:02 am
Leo, the statement below clearly shows you are clueless…
“But the woman’s logic humiliated Jesus into realizing that the haphazard dictates of unfortunate Jewish tradition also had a grip on him and he never realized it.”
Naz
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September 19, 2017 at 10:13 am
Okay Naz:
Let’s hear IF YOU HAVE A CLUE:
“The Canaanite woman came pleading to Jesus to help her daughter…..
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not right to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.”
So Naz, Let us hear how you read this scripture meaning.
Why did Jesus humiliate the woman by calling her a dog?
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September 19, 2017 at 10:19 am
Naz:
In the Book of Joshua, Canaanites are included in a list of nations to exterminate, and later described as a group which the Israelites had annihilated.
Why then did Jesus call the Canaanite woman a dog just because she was a Canaanite?
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September 19, 2017 at 3:41 pm
Hi Leo
My understanding from several articles I’ve read is that Noah condemned Canaan to servitude after Ham took advantage of his father’s drunkenness. The link below gives a comprehensive view:
http://epistle.us/hbarticles/secrets.html
I feel that we should not shy away from uncomfortable truths.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 19, 2017 at 10:31 pm
Hello Dino:
Here is the story from my perspective; the real reason; what actually happened……………It is a lengthy dissertation but it makes sense more so than any homosexual story which is purely speculative. My story actually can be backed up by scripture in other books of the bible that talk exactly about the same thing with the same phraseology that is so obvious, any other interpretation is useless by comparison.
Furthermore there are several points in my story that touches on a few other aspects of biblespeak that some religious zealots consider blasphemous just as they said about Jesus when he tried to dispel the myths of religious dogma and the tyranny of religious supernaturalism and superstition.
I have followed along the path of asking, knocking and seeking for answers, all my life.
Whether Jesus ever existed or not, I am not sure, but even if Jesus was a storybook character that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good character and didn’t have wisdom to impart to people. But when I read the words of Jesus, I understood exactly what he was saying. I easily ID’d with Jesus ever since I was 12 years old.
In the King James:
Luke 17:20-22 (21st Century King James Version)
20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show. (Not by observation)
21 Neither shall they say, `Lo, it is here!’ or `Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”…(“Within you”) that is key to understanding about heaven, not a place you go to, but knowing it is within you, you can easily understand another scripture commonly called the “Lord’s Prayer”, where it says “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will, be done on Earth, as it is in heaven”. In other words if you want heaven to be a place then bring it out of heaven to earth where it can be seen and enjoyed by everybody. And if you wanted to describe heaven in purely physical terms as a place or a great city you might describe it in terms of used by John in Revelation.
For a simple example of the will be done on earth as it is in heaven, take the Band-Aid invented less than a hundred years ago. The Band-Aid was a concept developed in the mind(heaven) as follows:
Earle Dickson was employed as a cotton buyer for the “Johnson & Johnson” when he invented the band-aid in 1921. His wife Josephine Dickson was always cutting her fingers in the kitchen while preparing food.
At that time a bandage consisted of separate gauze and adhesive tape that you would cut to size and apply yourself. Earle Dickson noticed that gauze and adhesive tape she used would soon fall off her active fingers. He decided to invent something that would stay in place and protect small wounds better.
Earle Dickson took a piece of gauze and attached it to the center of a piece of tape, and then covered the product with crinoline to keep it sterile. His boss, James Johnson, saw Earle Dickson’s invention and decided to manufacture band-aids to the public and make Earle Dickson vice-president of Johnson & Johnson.
Sales of Band-Aids were slow until Johnson & Johnson decided to give Boy Scout troops free Band-Aids as a publicity stunt. By 1924, Band-Aids were machine made, sold sterilized in 1939, and made with vinyl tape in 1958.
From the mind, where concepts develop in thought, in that realm called “heaven”, the Band-Aid was constructed and the will was done on earth as it was in heaven. The little miracle Band-Aid was brought out in the open where it was seen and now used by millions to help treat and heal minor cuts, scrapes and scratches.
Paul, in Acts, used the same concept and his “handkerchief” was said to have miraculous powers, Well to the simple uneducated masses it was miraculous. though they knew little about cleanliness & health and the power of the immune system under clean conditions when pathogens are kept from gaining a foothold in the open wound.
Continuing with the Jesus scripture He explained the Second Coming as being in the same realm as “WITHIN YOU” and when it comes to you, you will know for it will be just like the lightening when your mind is opened, you will not fail to grasp it. This also explains what he meant BY in Matthew 10:23
“…….. ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come…..”
22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.
But in Matthew 24, Jesus speaks about the coming of Christ which we call “The Second Coming”. But the Second Coming is exactly where He said the Kingdom of Heaven is. “WITHIN YOU”.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, `Lo, here is Christ,’ or `there,’ believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (But remember the second coming is not a physical event as he cautioned because so many people think it is that’s why the false christs and prophets warning, it is not a physical person uh uh)
Christians for the most part are blind followers: the blind leading the blind is a reference about them in the bible but they fail to see it being applicable to themselves; well, who would? After all we never imagine that stupidity applies to us because we can only think according to the limitations of our minds and in most cases a mind infiltrated with doctrinal hogwash since birth. AND I hasten to add here, not only christians but believers in every faith on the planet. Faith equals darkness while knowledge equals light and few people on the planet are knowledge-based as opposed to faith-based, unfortunately.
So Jesus referred to the stupidity in a more diplomatic way when He said that some will hear and see (the parables) without hearing or seeing, (will not understand the meaning).
The curse of Ham is another example of how Christians fail to understand what they read from the bible and so speculate about too many things, too many times, proving their ignorance too often regarding the book they claim is the word of god. Few christians know what actually happened to cause the Ham curse.
I did tell offer an attempt to open a mind and s/he was open to that example but it did nothing to make think; that maybe, just maybe there were other scriptures s/he didn’t understand either.
What really happened when Noah was drunk after the vineyard harvest? I think you will not know the truth. You probably have heard several ideas about why the curse happened, like pastors too but none of them know the truth. Do YOU? It took an atheist to open Christian minds to what their own bible scriptures meant and which they yet failed to grasp. Still, s/he continues quoting things s/he still knows naught about.
Now here is the meaning of the Second Coming as explained by Jesus and where Jesus said Heaven is; they are in the same realm and it is NOT a PLACE. at all and forget parallel dimensions;
Matthew 24:25-27 (21st Century King James Version)
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Therefore, if they shall say unto you, `Behold, He is in the desert!’ go not forth; or `Behold, He is in the secret chambers!’ believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
And just as a foot note about what Jesus meant “where the carcass is, the eagles will gather.”.
What he meant by that was that the physical body, a person or a place, is of earthly nature; carcass and eagle, is analogous to people, the physical, the body (carcass) but not so the “Christ” (remember the word Christ is not a name but a Greek term for a disposition, attitude, your mindset, or heaven, in modern terms we could call it cyberspace.
And one final point about the Second Coming(Heaven). In Geometry there such a term called a corollary and what a corollary means is when one truth is proved to be true there are other truths that can be deduced from the main truth. Sometimes a corollary has a proof that explains the derivation; sometimes the derivation is considered to be self-evident. Such a corollary of the “Heaven within scenario” is “Hell” because it too is in the same place that Jesus said Heaven is…another corollary then is the “devil” or “satan”.
Now on to Ham:
I have asked people over the years if they could understand the Curse of Ham as it seemed a benign, a non- event, to see his father naked, all children would see their parents naked at one time or another but to be cursed for that didn’t make one iota of sense. No minister, no priest, pastor or church goer I ever asked, knew the answer. They offered explanations of, merely seeing his father naked, and others thought, that was a sign of homosexuality yad yada, but none knew and so after reading the bible for about the 100th time I finally made the connection and at last I understood what Ham did that was so wrong as to be cursed so badly for it.
And now you are one of the few people I have told but more than that I just discovered that someone else knows the same answer and that surprised me, so I have printed his more detailed account of the same event so you can be more fully informed and then you too can see what even your pastor cannot see and probably no one you will ask in your church or outside your church will know. But the wonderful thing about knowledge is that It will set you free like faith never can.
Thus the story you are about to read will open your eyes beyond, anyone you know, knows. The translation of the same phrases are only consistent in the King James version and you can check other bibles but you will not find the same terminology and therefore one cannot make the connection from other bibles.
I have chosen not to put this information on the the youtube public site.
The first account you will read below is my own, simple account; the second account is the explanation I found on line and the only one that agreed with my understanding (interpretation) and gives a similar account in more detail.
BUDDYBOY’S ACCOUNT # 1
A lot of people are stumped about this “father’s nakedness” terminology and imagine that it was Noah himself being naked that Ham saw and many thus speculate that it was perhaps a homosexual act; however, it was not simply Noah being naked that brought such a curse upon Ham and his son Canaan. One cannot find an easy answer to this dilemma but one day in my search, I stumbled, as it were, upon the answer.
Scripture says that Ham….”saw the nakedness of his father” Yes indeed, there was a sex act but it was not with Noah, it was a sex act with “his father’s nakedness” because the truth of the “nakedness of his father” or “his father’s nakedness” is, frankly, his mother, Noah’s wife.
The answer is found in Leviticus in the section on sexual morality. In Leviticus chapter 18, verse 8 it actually tells you there, what the “father’s nakedness” is, in reality.
This is a startling revelation because then it becomes clear why Noah was so angry with what Ham did, not to he, Noah, but to “his father’s nakedness”, Noah’s wife, Ham’s mother and from that sex act the son of Ham was conceived in the womb of Ham’s Mother! Thus Canaan bore the curse under his generation.
Leviticus Chapter 18:8 reads…”The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover, IT IS YOUR FATHER’S NAKEDNESS.”
After making the King James reference discovery in Leviticus, a major eye opener to say the least, as my understanding was finally unveiled, but why did I not see this before perplexed me even more and then, as I researched further, that answer too, became clear.
The problem why people cannot easily make this connection, I believe, in my case more than 20 years I wrestled trying to understand why a curse, for what seemed to me such a trivial thing as Ham seeing his father naked, why that curse was so venomous?…. but when I researched the same scriptures in other bible versions, I discovered the same phraseology was nowhere to be found, nowhere in all the other bible versions!
The King James version is the only bible that uses the same phraseology “his father’s nakedness” in both the Genesis and Leviticus books. So you can read all the other bibles from cover to cover and you will not find the same phrases used in both books.
This inconsistency among the various translations is most unfortunate. I don’t want to reveal how I believe the pillar of cloud/pillar of light that lead the Exodus out of Egypt happened or a number of other so called biblical miracles showing the simplicity with which many bible events occurred but which christians for the most part don’t understand; nevertheless, that will be revealed in due course as it is my mission to impart knowledge.
———————————
BOB ENJART’S ACCOUNT # 2.
So, understanding this common Hebrew figure of speech enables the reader to comprehend Moses’ 3,500-year-old account of why Noah cursed Canaan:
Ham was the father of Canaan… And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard. Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent [his own drunkenness left his wife vulnerable and exposed to Ham’s wickedness]. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father [that is, he had sex with Noah’s wife, Ham’s own mother], and told his two brothers outside [as wicked people often brag of their sin, and as misery loves company, and perhaps even inviting them to do likewise]. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father [refusing to further abuse her]. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness [i.e., their mother’s nude body]. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him [because he found out from his wife and his sons]. Then he said [after he learned of the pregnancy]: “Cursed be Canaan [whose father was Ham]…” Gen. 9:18, 20-25
Why do Christian readers often miss this real story of Canaan? The undermining of Genesis as literal and rational history leads believers, even many authorities, to neglect serious study of Genesis and much of the Old Testament. Christians read that Ham saw his father’s nakedness and therefore Noah cursed baby Canaan. That may seem capricious and arbitrary to many, but millions of Christians are conditioned to take the Bible with a grain of salt. After all, if the masses assume that they cannot trust the Bible’s six literal days of Creation, nor its story of Noah’s Ark and a global flood, then why worry about a silly detail like Noah blaming his grandchild for his own drunken behavior.
Canaan’s true story shows the tragic reality of a child being set up to fail by the wickedness of his father. Thus Noah cursed Canaan as a statement of that reality, not as a hex or evil spell, but as a warning to others against following in Ham’s wicked ways. So incest set the background for centuries of conflict between Noah’s Hamitic descendants, especially those through Canaan, against the descendants of Shem, the Semites, especially the Jews, to whom God promised the land of the Canaanites.
While the story of Canaan’s curse follows the Creation and Flood accounts, rightly understood it helps us to see that all throughout, Genesis is a rational book of history if you can understanding outside the box; that is, outside the textual box and start looking at some speech as metaphors for other, similar events.
Reply to my comment and User ID
Kevin Schwartz:
With all due respect: That’s rich……..
“To the man who dare calls himself “I Am”.
With all due respect, I am not trying to be combative with my address to you, but I cannot address you as “I AM” because there is only one “I AM” and you are not HIM. For me, it would be blasphemous to address you as God.”
———————————
My reply to comment regarding User ID:
That statement is almost the exact same thing that the Pharisees said of Jesus. You may not have read it but here is the biblical account.
John 10: I and the Father are one heart and mind.”
31-32 Again the Jews picked up rocks to throw at him. Jesus said, “I have made a present to you from the Father of a great many good actionable words. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 The Jews said, “We’re not stoning you for anything good you did, but for what you said—this blasphemy of calling yourself God.”
34-38 Jesus said, “I’m only quoting your inspired Scriptures, where the biblical God said, ‘I tell you—you are gods.’ Now if God called your ancestors ‘Gods’—and Scripture doesn’t lie—why do you yell, ‘Blasphemer! Blasphemer!’ at the unique One the Father consecrated and sent into the world, just because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I don’t say the things my Father says, well and good; don’t believe me. But if I am doing them, put aside for a moment what you hear me say about myself and just take the evidence of the words that are right before your eyes. Then perhaps things will come together for you, and you’ll see that not only are we saying the same thing, we are the same—Father and Son. He is in me; I am in him.”
39-42 They tried yet again to arrest him, but he slipped through their fingers.
——————————————————————————————————————
Not all scripture is to be taken literally and apparently others think otherwise. Which is the case of the Curse of Ham; AKA, the curse of Canaan as a prime example.
Genesis 9: 20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
As all authors and peoples do, Moses and the Jews used figures of speech. Some of the Bible’s figures of speech are euphemisms that promote modesty. For example, instead of saying that Adam had sexual intercourse with Eve, the Bible more politely says that “Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived” (Gen. 4:1). And Moses writes, “the man who lies with” rather than using the modern and more crude phrase, “has sex with.” The reader who misses these common figures of speech will misunderstand the plain meaning of various passages. Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. And God through Moses used the same decency when describing other physical relations. For example, when prohibiting incest in the Mosaic Law, rather than saying, a man shall not have intercourse with his mother, Moses wrote that he shall not “uncover his father’s nakedness.”
‘The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness…’ Lev. 20:11
Committing incest with any female “near of kin” can be described as “uncovering his nakedness” (Lev. 18:6), referring to the appropriate male relative, including the nakedness of your father (with your mother, Lev. 18:7), or your sister, granddaughter, stepsister, aunt, daughter-in-law and sister-in-law (Lev. 18:9-15). Of course, this can also be described in more literal terms as uncovering the woman’s nakedness, but it can also be referred to, idiomatically, as referring to the husband’s, father’s, brother’s, uncle’s, or son’s nakedness. Her nakedness can equal his nakedness because as Paul writes, your body is “not your own” (1 Cor. 6:19), and from this perspective, your mother’s body belongs to your father. Thus:
‘The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness’ Lev. 18:8
Again, “It is your father’s nakedness!”
Ezekiel used this figure of speech in this Hebrew parallelism:
“In you [O Israel] men uncover their fathers’ nakedness; in you they violate women…” Ezek. 22:10
And Habakkuk condemns not the sin of homosexuality but of getting your neighbor drunk in order to seduce his wife, when he warns:
“Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!” Hab. 2:15;
Habakkuk warns against looking upon a neighbor’s nakedness, which is just the slightest alternate form of uncovering his nakedness and of what Ham did, of seeing his father’s nakedness. (See also Leviticus 18:10, 14, 17-18; 1 Samuel 20:30 and Ezekiel 22:10-11.)
So, understanding this common Hebrew figure of speech enables the reader to comprehend Moses’ 3,500-year-old account of why Noah cursed Canaan:
Lengthy to be sure but it is reality to be sure.
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September 20, 2017 at 5:48 am
Leo, your statement that the Canaanite woman’s logic caught Jesus off guard is ridiculous. This again highlights your theology of about who you think Jesus was, which is just a mere man and nothing else. You openly deny His deity as the Son of God and by doing so prove you do not understand the gospel.
As for why Jesus called her a dog….that’s a Jew/Gentile thing and I won’t bother explaining that to you since you reject that idea.
Naz
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September 20, 2017 at 7:50 am
The “dissertation” worthy of bearing fruit with sincere knowledge seekers
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September 20, 2017 at 9:36 am
Mr N J Chetia:
Thank you.
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September 20, 2017 at 9:55 am
Leo, you are my hero 🙂
Naz
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September 20, 2017 at 10:03 am
Naz:
You cannot explain it because you reject my explanation and offer none of your own. Was Jesus a Jew or a Gentile? Raised in the Jewish tradition or in the Gentile tradition? All you can focus on is the God tradition and that’s why you fail to understand the true diversity of Jesus and failing that you also fail to understand the true diversity of the Father (the God of Jesus within every human person)
Again I must tell you what the bible says, textually. Because you cannot discern truth when it appears before your eyes because you are already conditioned before it appears before your very eyes; you see without seeing and hear without hearing and you will not come to me for the life of knowledge that only I can give you so you have a dead bible and a dead Christ and if you study the bible long enough without coming to the one of whom it testifies you will want to crucify me not physically but mentally with words, try to stop me spiritually but you are arguing with the Father when you argue with me. In this case you see, the Father and I are one……….exactly what Jesus said to the scribes and the Pharisees 2000 years ago, yet you still voice the Pharisaical words got me. I don’t judge you for that, the words that I state will judge you. Even though you are well versed and “texually active”.
I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord and Master within who judges all.
Anybody reading this account will know well and good that Jesus was caught off guard by the woman’s retort so here it is again. You’re familiar with the text but unfamiliar with the understanding. Following the verses is a short essay regarding same that may help you see with your mind’s eye that seeks the truth.
From there Jesus took a trip to Tyre and Sidon. They had hardly arrived when a Canaanite woman came down from the hills and pleaded, “Mercy, Master, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly afflicted by an evil spirit.”
Jesus ignored her. The disciples came and complained, “Now she’s bothering us. Would you please take care of her? She’s driving us crazy.”
Jesus refused, telling them, “I’ve got my hands full dealing with the lost sheep of Israel.”
Then the woman came back to Jesus, went to her knees, and begged. “Master, help me.”
He said, “It’s not right to take bread out of children’s mouths and throw it to dogs.”
She was quick: “You’re right, Master, but beggar dogs do get scraps from the master’s table.”
Jesus gave in. “Oh, woman, your faith is something else. What you want is what you get!” Right then her daughter became well.
—————————————————————–
We might be excused for feeling a little taken aback at the way Jesus treats the Canaanite woman. It is out of character. She pleads for her daughter. He ignores her. She uses the same plea as Peter when he was drowning: ‘Lord help me’. Immediately Jesus stretches out his hand to help Peter. He ignores her.
The Gospel records one of two occasions when Jesus leaves Jewish territory and steps into a foreign country. In Mark’s account he entered a house and did not want anyone to know it. He wanted to rest. Is he worn out? He is seen; this poor Canaanite woman steps in front of him – desperate for healing, she pleads for her daughter. Jesus ignores her. Walks past. If someone ignores you, cuts you stone dead; how do you feel, what do you do? Walk away, treat them in the same way? Feel angry! The Canaanite woman cannot afford the luxury of anger. She is desperate, she refuses to be snubbed. As he passes by she continues to shout, persisting in her request – healing for her daughter.
The disciples come to Jesus and beg him to send her away. She is getting on their nerves. Send her away! Was Jesus having a bad day? Do we allow him to have a bad day or is there another reason for his strange behaviour? When the disciples plead with him to send her away, Jesus pleads for their understanding: “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” As if to say: The Jewish people, my people, are my first concern. He can barely cope with the demands of this mission.
It must have taken great courage for a Canaanite woman to ask a Jew for help. The Canaanites hated the Jews and were in turn hated by them. Jews referred to the Canaanites – as dogs.
She brushes the disciples aside. She will not take silence for an answer: She kneels before Jesus: “Lord help me.” She is desperate, persistent and powerless. “Lord help me”.
Jesus still refuses her, even goads her. “It is not fair to give the children’s bread to dogs”. She refuses to take offence. In fact, she outwits Jesus. She is his teacher. In effect she says: Call us what you like, I don’t care: “Lord, even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master’s table.”
She overwhelms him. “Woman you have great faith!” She breaks through his silence, his belittling of her people, challenges Jesus in her need. “Woman you have great faith. Be it done for you as you desire”Her daughter was immediately cured.
This incident changes the direction of Jesus’ mission in Matthew’s Gospel. The work of Jesus is no longer limited to the Jews but reaches out to non-Jews as well. “Go and make disciples of all nations…” The message for us is: Be persistent, insistent and come to him with a sense of our own helplessness. Seek ways of becoming part of his mission to others.
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September 20, 2017 at 10:16 am
Leo, the “make disciples of all nations” was after the resurrection, not before. For the Gentiles to be included there had to be a way which made the Law obsolete and join 2 separated groups, Jews and Gentiles, into one new Man. This is what the resurrection does when Christ fulfills the Law and becomes the End of the Law to those that believe.
Yes, we see a foreshadow of the inclusion of the Gentiles in the story of the Canaanite woman, however, this was not a reality until Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles and declare the gospel was for all, Jews and Gentiles.
The notion that the Canaanite woman is somehow a pivotal moment in the ministry of Jesus and that it changed His direction is totally absurd.
What is more absurd is your statement of Who the Father is ….
“(the God of Jesus within every human person)”
Not everybody has the Spirit of God living in them so your attempt to include all of humanity and not leave anybody out is surely out of good intentions, but it’s not the truth.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (ASV).
Naz
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September 20, 2017 at 10:35 am
Naz:
I expect that you won’t “get it”. It’s like repentance, not everybody gets it, certainly not before you accept it. it.
The Spirit of God that Jesus called Father lives in the Kingdom and where is the Kingdom? “Within You”; that is within every human being born.
You just have to let it loose! Because all there is of GoOd is available to to every human being who is available to everything of GOoD.
All there is of God is available the one who is available to all there is of God.
Any difference between GOD and GOOD?
“Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. “No one is good except God.”
Naz LET IT LOOSE and you let all Good loose
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September 20, 2017 at 11:46 am
Leo, you have been spouting the “Good” doctrine too long without any checks.
“God” and “Good” is not the same thing. To you God is a concept, a behavior. This proves you are religious at the core justifying yourself by your own works. Those that Christ’s are justified by faith in Christ and by what He has done, not by our track record.
God is a supernatural entity, God is a Spirit. God is not a concept, a philosophy or a tool that you can manipulate.
While Jesus has demonstrated that God is compatible with mankind, that does mean that we all are God or that everyone has God living inside them. That’s rubbish.
2Ti 2:19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,”….
As for the Kingdom of God being “inside you”. Jesus is not telling the Pharisee that the Kingdom of God is literally inside him. This is reading way too much into one verse.
The context is clear that the God’s kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, not like the earthly or man-made kingdoms of the world that we create. Eventually those that are children of God, will have the kingdom living inside them, but that is not by default everyone, only those that have received the Spirit. Those that believe that Jesus is the Son of God and depend/trust fully in Him for their salvation and for their life.
Naz
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September 20, 2017 at 1:09 pm
“The scriptures can be explained by our own mimicking justice system.”
That would be fine, assuming a judge with the limitations of a human. But if God is all powerful and all knowing, then the whole process becomes a farce, don’t you think? What is the point of reading someone the riot act when you already KNOW with 100% certainty there is no chance they will change their ways? And if a judge were capable of imposing behavioral controls on a person to prevent him from committing further crimes, wouldn’t he? After all, laws governing the punishment for breaking laws are our limited attempts to control bad behavior. And if a judge WERE capable of imposing absolute behavioral controls to prevent someone from committing further rapes, thefts, murders, etc., yet he NEGLECTED to impose those controls…would he not be committing an injustice against all future victims of the criminal? If someone is CAPABLE of preventing an atrocity, but does nothing more than sit by and watch it happen, is that not the behavior of a psychopath?
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September 20, 2017 at 2:03 pm
“I don’t expect that we will find any common ground, but I’ll reply one last time to respect the time you put it to respond to me.”
Okay, fair enough. But even if we were to accept your interpretation of John 6:44, how can you square that with the following passages?
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS.
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
I can see how my interpretation of John 6:44 fits with the above passages, but it appears to me that your interpretation sets up a contradiction.
“God has provided unquestionable evidence by sending His Son.”
But how is that credible evidence? Instead of simply imposing awareness of God’s existence on everyone’s mind automatically, both back then and today, God sent Jesus…whom many people didn’t believe was the son of God (after all, what would YOU think if you saw someone on a street corner claiming to be the son of God?). That is insufficient evidence for any reasonable person, don’t you think?
But it’s worse than that. Despite Jesus supposedly being involved with major events that would have rocked the ancient world…there is no direct, independent evidence that he even existed. The only original accounts of his life can be found in the four Gospels and Pauline Epistles. However, the Gospels were written by completely anonymous sources several DECADES after Jesus supposedly lived, and the Epistles make no mention of any earthly, human Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12, 1 Corinthians 15:1-8). Later Gospel writers also copied material directly from earlier Gospels. The oldest surviving copies of their works are translations of translations written HUNDREDS of years later, and the wording in every copy contains alterations. Finally, none of the books claim to be eyewitness accounts to begin with.
And then there are the historical inconsistencies within the Bible itself. According to the Gospel of Luke, Jesus was born in the year of a universal tax census, which started in 6 CE while Quirinius was governor of Syria. But Matthew claims Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great, which ended in 4 BCE. Since Quirinius’ reign started ten years after Herod’s death, Jesus could not have been born during the reigns of both Herod and Quirinius. Not only that, but apparently Roman records reveal that the first universal census didn’t actually occur until the reign of Emperor Vespasian, in 74 CE, which was decades AFTER Quirinius’ reign. So the story of Jesus involves some serious historical contradictions right from the very beginning.
Then there is the Gospel of Matthew, which claims that King Herod had every infant boy in the region put to death…yet not a single historian of that period even mentioned such a mass murder, even though there would have been widespread outrage. And this includes the historian Josephus, who detested King Herod and made a point of recording all of his offenses.
Matthew also says that Jesus gave numerous sermons to many thousands of people throughout Judea, astounding everyone with his teachings and amazing miracles of healing and raising the dead. His fame spread far and wide, and he even performed miracles for various important leaders in the region (Matthew 9:18-26). Yet there is no record of ANY of this until the Gospels were written many decades later.
Also, Jesus supposedly rode into Jerusalem and was greeted with a parade and citywide celebration for him as the miracle-working King of the Jews. Romans normally just executed rebels without due process, yet for some reason Jesus received a high-profile trial, involving important leaders and celebrities, including the Jewish high priest, Pontius Pilate and even King Herod himself. Jesus also had thousands of his own supporters, including such high-ranking leaders as a royal official, a centurion, a temple leader, and members of the Jewish ruling council. Yet nobody recorded ANY of this.
Finally, Jesus’ birth and death were supposedly accompanied by great supernatural events, including the appearance of the Star of Bethlehem, a three-hour darkness that covered the land, massive earthquakes, and many dead Jewish saints resurrecting and wandering the streets of Jerusalem. There were also supposedly many people who witnessed Jesus’ resurrection and ascension into Heaven. Yet there is not a single record of ANY of this happening either.
And it’s not like these events occurred in some backwater region. Judea was a highly important, strategic province for Rome, and during Jesus’ time the region was one of the most well documented in ancient history. Many contemporary writers recorded great volumes of information about the area–they even described several failed Jewish messiahs. Yet despite Jesus supposedly performing so many dramatic events, sermons and miracles that were witnessed by thousands of people and garnered the attention of numerous high-ranking officials…there is no evidence of ANYONE during that time writing anything about Jesus or the supernatural events that supposedly coincided with his birth and death. None. Is there any way such complete silence is plausible if those events actually occurred? Feel free to look up any of my claims here, but nothing I’ve said here is particularly controversial among biblical scholars.
“There has been nobody in history like Jesus and there never will be.”
Well, I wouldn’t go that far. Jesus matches 18 of the 22 “hero patterns” common to ancient mythologies in many different cultures. Thus, he shares many of the same characteristics and life stories of Mithradates, Krishna, Moses, Romulus, King Arthur, Perseus, Watu Gunung (of Java), Heracles, Mohammad, Beowulf, Buddha, Czar Nicholas II, Zeus, Nyikang (a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile), Samson, Sunjata (the Lion-King of Ancient Mali), Achilles, Odysseus, and even Harry Potter (https://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/).
“God is not “sending” anyone to Hell “because” of anything. We are all going to Hell by default. This is not a “you better believe or else” message. This is a “you have no hope but here is the only way out” message.”
Hmm, I fail to see the difference, at least within the context of an all powerful, all knowing God. Surely God created hell, knowing full well that he would eventually be sending untold BILLIONS of humans to suffer there, right? That’s the inevitable consequence of omniscience. He also had to have known that unless he chose a different universe to create (such as one where Adam and Eve never disobeyed him), that his choices would result in humanity becoming sinful. Being all powerful, he could by definition EASILY make it so that nobody is born sinful…but he doesn’t do that. He made sin the DEFAULT condition for all humanity, as you said. Those who don’t believe he exists do get “sent” to hell. Nobody actually WANTS to go to hell. It’s simply a case of being largely an accident of which part of the world in which you are born. An individual’s culture is by far the greatest determinant of what religion one ends up believing. So I don’t think there’s any conclusion other than that God sends people to hell for not believing he exists. That’s pretty harsh…but what other logical conclusion is there?
“He has given us this knowledge and it’s the main theme of the entire bible even from the beginning to the end. The fact that you have a bible you can read and that you are discussing Jesus proves that the knowledge is there and you have it.”
Sure, you and I both have access to the Bible, particularly since we both (presumably) grew up in a predominantly Christian culture. But I’ve traveled all over the world, experiencing many different cultures and their respective religions. The vast majority of those living in Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, etc. cultures have no more awareness or knowledge of the Bible than you presumably have of the Qu’ran or Bhagavad Gita. Most of them think about you the way you think about them…lost souls following a false religion. Yet according to Christianity, all those people will go to hell simply because they don’t believe Yahweh exists. Perhaps now you can see why the idea of an all-knowing God giving the world Jesus (for only 30 years) and the Bible (whose original forms have been lost to history with only imperfect translations of translations remaining) as the only means of imparting God’s most important message for the salvation of all humanity is, well, not exactly plausible?
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September 20, 2017 at 2:12 pm
Naz, you know Paul’s talking points and dogmatic talking points. But you don’t know that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees when he told them that the Kingdom is within “you” and you don’t know about Faith.
I keep showing you the text of Jesus and you still don’t get it so you crawl to Paul and others for your interpretations because that’s Church Dogma. You are not telling me anything I haven;t heard before; but what I tell you, you havenever heard before and you just can’t admit it.
Remember this was the way Jesus talked to the disciples and what happened then? They talked back to Jesus as if he were just another fellow outside the Church box.
So here’s a couple of scriptures, sigh, you might go, they are not from Paul you fall back and go to guy when you need assurance about churchy stuff.
Luke 17: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (GET THAT ‘OF THE PHARISEES’.)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
OF COURSE You and DOGMA WILL ARGUE ABOUT THIS JUST AS THEY Argued with Jesus when he spoke. You talk Dogma and I talk the reverse of DogmA – AmgoD
And how about this Naz?:
Tell me this. If there’s no less going for you as a forgiven sinner with Christ as God living in you than there was going for him with the Father as God living in him, why the difference in the end product?
Because there was mutual inter-availability there was no margin of difference between what the Lord Jesus did as man and the Father did as God. No margin of difference between what the Lord Jesus said as man and the Father said as God. No margin of difference between what he was as man and the Father was as God except that God is invisible and the Lord Jesus in a physical visible humanity gave a physical, visible expression of an invisible self intimately identified with an invisible God so he could take God out into the open where he could be seen and that’s exactly why he made you and me. That’s normality.
In the same way that the fully alive Father sent me here and I live because of him, so the one who makes a meal of me lives because of me. This is the Bread from heaven. Your ancestors ate bread and later died. Whoever eats this Bread will live always.
Many among his disciples heard this and said, “This is tough teaching, too tough to swallow.”
Jesus sensed that his disciples were having a hard time with this and said, “Does this throw you completely? The Spirit can make life. Sheer muscle and willpower don’t make anything happen. Every word I’ve spoken to you is a Spirit-word, and so it is life-making. But you are resisting, refusing to have any part in this.” He went on to say, “This is why I told you earlier that no one is capable of coming to me on his own. You get to me only as a gift from the Father.”
After this a lot of his disciples left. They no longer wanted to be associated and walked with him no more.
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September 20, 2017 at 2:19 pm
Naz:
Here’s one more lesson for you to argue about and rail against but let’s see who side with you and who sides with Jesus.
remember God engineered man in such a way that he would be inhabited by his creator so that his creator at all times would be the origin of what he does and says and is. But cannot, will not and does not, unless you let him. That’s why the next principle is very obvious. You’ll find it in Hebrews 11, verse 6. Without faith, it is impossible to please him. Your supreme criterion that makes you man from God’s point of view, that you please him but without faith it is impossible to please him. So faith isn’t optional, faith isn’t a matter of taste, faith isn’t up for grabs, faith is a disposition, the mind that was in Christ Jesus. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ, Jesus who let God do it. And in that he, God, created you in such a way that only his presence imparts to you the moral capacity to implement his purpose in making you man, to reveal his likeness, he in you teaching your mind, he in you controlling your emotions, he in you directing your will, he in you governing your behavior, because you let him, but without faith that lets him be God in the man you cannot please him. That’s why it’s absolutely imperative that you understand the nature of faith.
And very few Christians understand the nature of faith. Because we’re constantly being brainwashed into the idea that the more you are in the rat race, the more you rush around doing things for God the more you’re demonstrating your faith in God; diametrically opposed to the truth. The more you try to do for God the more you’re demonstrating, not your faith in God, but your faith in yourself.
Faith is a disposition that invokes the activity of a second party; it brings somebody, something, into action on your behalf. As I’ve explained to some of you in private conversation: You’re exercising faith at this moment in the seat that supports your weight.
What’s your faith doing for that seat? Nothing! Except let it be a bench, on your behalf. It isn’t your faith that supporting your weight, it’s the chair. I believe in chairs; I’m very orthodox about chairs. I could preach for twenty minutes right now about a chair and everything I’d say would be true but I’m not exercising faith in one single chair in this building because you cannot exercise faith standing up, you can only exercise faith sitting down. And the moment I sit in a chair I immediately rest upon it my weight and let it get into action to demonstrate that it is strong enough to support that weight. So you don’t congratulate my faith you congratulate the chair.
If you want your appendix out you choose a surgeon you can trust. And you go to the hospital on the appointed occasion; how do you demonstrate your faith in the surgeon? Who gets on the job? Who takes the tools? Do you carve him up or does he carve you up? When you put your faith in the surgeon, he gets into action.
When I get on board a plane and fly, my faith does nothing for the pilot, nothing for the airline, nothing for ground crew, nothing for radar; my faith simply lets all the resources of that airline, including the pilot, be mobilized on my behalf to get me from Newark, New Jersey, To London, England. My faith lets somebody else get into action.
That’s why, never congratulate a man on his faith, that’s sheer stupidity. Faith never made a man great. Faith is simply that disposition that allows God to be as big as God is, in a man, that’s all. Congratulate Him. The one who’s BE-ing.
Faith is like the clutch on a gear shift continental sports car. You could put your foot on the gas, rev the engine until every last window in the district is vibrating with the noise and the whole city lost in a cloud of dust. But if you don’t let the clutch out where will you be when you take your foot off the gas and the dust has settled? Exactly where you started! Because all the clutch does is relate the engine and the power under the hood to the wheels on the road. But the clutch doesn’t drive the car. Can you imagine a kid with his friend, open sports car, zooming down the road, nobody looking, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 miles an hour, wind streaming through his hair and he turns to his friend and says man….man..he says, what a clutch! Well you’d say don’t be so stupid. You’d say Man…what an engine!. All the clutch is doing is letting the engine be an engine.
And all that faith does in terms of your relationship to Jesus Christ is to allow him to move redemptively into your experience and reconcile you to God. If you don’t put your trust in Christ, he’s still the redeemer but you won’t know it.
That doesn’t prove you’re smart. That just exposes your ignorance.
Faith.
And of course the more confident you are in the object of your faith, not in your Faith but in the OBJECT of your Faith, the more unconscious you are of the faith you are exercising in that object. That’s why you didn’t examine the chair before you sat in it. You’ve become confident and therefore you’re unconscious. And if you’re worried about your faith in Jesus Christ, there’s one cure: get acquainted. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word, work and life of Jesus. Jesus’ word, work and life so that you can know him of whom it testifies. Not Jesus’ death, that’s pure supernatural nonsense; it is his word, what he said and did and how he lived that quickeneth us. Faith brings you to truth and truth to knowledge and knowledge to…understanding. It comes from giving Jesus time enough, to talk to you long enough until at last you KNOW enough and that’s the only cure for ignorance……”
Faith.
And of course the more confident you are in the object of your faith, not in your Faith but in the OBJECT of your Faith, the more unconscious you are of the faith you are exercising in that object. That’s why you didn’t examine the chair before you sat in it. You’ve become confident and therefore you’re unconscious. And if you’re worried about your faith in Jesus Christ, there’s one cure: get acquainted. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word, work and life of Jesus. Jesus’ word, work and life so that you can know him of whom it testifies. Not Jesus’ death, that’s pure supernatural nonsense; it is his word, what he said and did and how he lived that quickeneth us. Faith brings you to truth and truth to knowledge and knowledge to…understanding. It comes from giving Jesus time enough, to talk to you long enough until at last you KNOW enough and that’s the only cure for ignorance……”
And why don’t some of you trust Jesus Christ and let him do it? You just don’t know him. You never took time out to get acquainted. To please him. And without the faith that will let him do it, that to which he calls you, who works in you both to will and do of his good pleasure, who’s prepared to be to you now, as The Father, all that the Father was to him then. The third and last obvious point is this.
Romans 14:23, Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin. Anything you do that derives from other than letting Divine Logic do it, is sin. Sin isn’t an act. Sin is that errant, conceited attitude of human self sufficiency. Sin is that attitude that says Divine Logic is for old women and those who need a crutch. That’s just where you’re wrong. You’re the devil’s dupe. That’s why your life is so twisted. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, in the day that man believed the devil’s lie that a man could be man with the supernatural God and not the Divine Logic within you and embarked on that mad experiment of human self sufficiency, the holy spirit was withdrawn from the human spirit and man had a body and a soul just like any other animal but not being protected by instinct couldn’t behave like an animal and not now being governed by the Father couldn’t behave like a man so he behaves like the maniac he does and you and I are the heirs of the chaos and the anarchy and holocaust that is the inevitable consequence of man’s stupidity and Divine Logic is saying GET BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG!
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September 20, 2017 at 2:27 pm
derekmathias:
That’s a good question for the Christian God or any of the Gods from mythology eras because it does not make sense……………..and this is a good example of how the Gods were created ………….in the image of man!
“If someone is CAPABLE of preventing an atrocity, but does nothing more than sit by and watch it happen, is that not the behavior of a psychopath?
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September 20, 2017 at 2:39 pm
Derek, as I said, I don’t think we are going to find any common ground.
You have a lot of issues with God, Jesus the bible etc… and there’s a huge chasm between us. I could provide you explanations and interpretations but you would find a way to rationalize them to your point of view. I suppose I would do the same.
It seems you have a lot of bible knowledge so I wonder if you were hurt by a particular church group in your past that brought you to this point. A good friend of mine used to be a Pastor of a church and now when he reads the bible all he sees is contradictions, just like yourself. So I understand where you are coming from.
The reality is, not many churches are really teaching or preaching the grace of God. I think this is where the problems arise. They promise you freedom and salvation but after a while it all bogs down to do’s and don’ts and how committed you are and soon people end up disillusioned, confused and at worst with major spiritual damage. I was listening to a guy on the radio today ranting about how Christians are going to be judged so you better watch out. This is the kind of stuff that makes me sick to my stomach.
I don’t know if that’s your story but whatever the “church” has done to hurt people, it doesn’t have a Jesus stamp on it. I think God has got a bad wrap for a lot of crap people have been doing and preaching “in the name of God”.
Thanks for the conversation.
Naz
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September 20, 2017 at 5:25 pm
You choose:
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” (Deuteronomy 30:11-20)
16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
(Matthew 5:16-20, 48)
12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell–and great was its fall.” (Matthew 7:12-27)
27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:27-44)
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September 20, 2017 at 5:34 pm
Frank:
The obvious example of how everybody has the spirit within to choose, is in the Genesis account of the sons born to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. Both chose to live according to their desire and righteousness or otherwise and we know the outcome the parable reflects.
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September 21, 2017 at 2:23 am
This stuff is very satisfactorily written. The article was informative to readers who possess a great worth for articles. We look ahead for even more of the very same. He has detailed each and every little thing very well and briefly.
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September 21, 2017 at 2:23 am
Regards,
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September 21, 2017 at 2:23 am
This stuff is very well written. The blog post was informational to elocutionists who exactly have a great worth for articles. We looking ahead for even more of the very same. He has outlined each and every little thing extremely well and briefly.
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September 21, 2017 at 2:24 am
Regards,
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September 21, 2017 at 2:24 am
http://babusirsgrouptuition.com/
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September 21, 2017 at 5:43 am
Frank, what’s your point of displaying those passages within this discussion.
Again, everyone knows what the scriptures say, but do we know what the scriptures mean. Regurgitating scripture is not sufficient. People need to understand what it means.
Anybody can quote scriptures verbatim and we all know one can use any passage to support a position or pet doctrine that they wish to promote.
Naz
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September 21, 2017 at 8:21 am
Thankfully resources for reading deeply/clarfying about the gospel (old and new) are widely available on the net .But the concept of being predisposed to a destiny in hell, unless otherwise yielding to the supremacy and it’s code of conduct is by today’s standards VERY HARSH. Today represents the future for the ancient times of the Bible and today (future by comparison) men have added a few more dimensions of dealing with dissent. They are tolerance to diversity of opinion and expression ,moderation and proportionality in compensation (compensation here means retributive punishment) for the transgression or crime through jurisprudence, hummaine statutes and opportunities for self correction. But the belief in the ancient times (Old Testament) was that there were only two dimensions – heaven and hell and no moderation in between as for example a temperate heaven for the conceitedly pious, a temperate hell for the mildly wicked. But testament try to bind in the future (present for us) with the sachles of the past. What would be the way to negotiate – is it understanding with the reasoning resources of the present the gospels ,as was broadly hinted by ” if you want heaven to be a place then bring it out of heaven to earth ” or try to get further into the truth of whether the Hebrew Bible (from where the gospels took off) was written by patriachiacal figures for whom food shelter security and respect in society was assured and so they did not know the difficulties of tilling the soil of crafting the crafts and of all the hard work which the lesser mortals had to toil and labor in order to support them and their system and This absence of the ring side view is why in their train of thoughts they were blissfully ignorant about the practicalities and difficulties of human existence at the lowest level and so they wrote harsh code of conduct and of rewards and retribution
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September 21, 2017 at 8:44 am
On a spiritual level, Aloha is an invocation of the Divine and Mahalo is a Divine blessing. Both are acknowledgments of the Divinity that dwells within and without.
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September 21, 2017 at 9:12 am
God’s foreknowledge is a myth, a tactic to teach children to beware and be wary of the unknown. As adults we are unable to know but very able to speculate about and speculate we do albeit my logic is greater than your logic and my reasonableness is better than your reasonableness why?
Well, Nietzsche explained it this way: “There cannot be a God because if there were one, I could not believe that I was not He”
and as I thought that may be correct I remember he also said: “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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September 21, 2017 at 9:19 am
Raymundo Prickett :
There is another word for the website address you shared, very common in western culture, we call it “school”.
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September 22, 2017 at 6:36 am
Leo, I agree with your analogy of faith in principle but your application is totally wrong when it comes to our eternal destiny.
Faith is not automatic and Jesus is not everybody’s savior even if they don’t know it. Furthermore, the Jesus you believe in doesn’t exist, it’s a fabricated pathetic version of Jesus made in your own image which is a mix of Gnosticism and Universalism at best.
For the longest time you have pitted yourself against the most basic biblical facts and labelled those. like me, who believe in an actual death and resurrection of Jesus, as religious heretics. This is an absurd position that cannot be backed up by any honest study of the scriptures. If you don’t believe it, just say so, it’s your right to believe what you want. But don’t try to say that Jesus is a Savior apart from His death and resurrection. Even the Atheists, Gnostics and those alike would call you insane.
If you deny the actual death and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ then you don’t believe the gospel as it is clearly written.
Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luk 24:46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
Luk 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
Naz
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September 22, 2017 at 8:16 am
Naz:
There you go again pinning your understanding on Paul…Paul did n to know Jesus anymore than you; he never met him but was an instrument used to stone Stephen to death….remamber that little biblical tidbit?
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September 22, 2017 at 8:17 am
Your preaching is in vain because you don’t understand…….the blind leading the blind.
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September 22, 2017 at 8:57 am
Jesuspeake, Luke 24 is not written by Paul but are the words of Jesus.
Yes Paul was a murderer and a Pharisee who was spiritually blind at one point.
You can cherry pick the bible if you like but in the end you are left with your own opinion and your own theology that’s based on what ? Science ? common sense ?
When you can figure out a solution to death and rotting in a wooden box, let me know and let the world know because that will be great news !
Cheers.
Naz
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September 22, 2017 at 11:07 am
Naz:
I don’t need to cherry pick the scriptures I can tell you exactly what Jesus was talking about from start to finish.
“When you can figure out a solution to death and rotting in a wooden box, let me know and let the world know because that will be great news !”
We are on the cusp of that magical time but guess who are the biggest opponents to that immortal time….if you said the religious world, you’d be right especially Christians who know very little but believe every textual literal word in the book without regard for common sense.
Nobody comes back from being dead but some have come back from the place of the dead; namely Jonah, Lazarus and Jesus.
Have a nice eternity.
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September 22, 2017 at 11:23 am
Every shade of opinion expressed on this blog have rock solid grounding.Historical records of Jesus non existence is there, some historical reference to Jesus existence is there. But the conflict between whether Gospel text or it’s inferred meaning is most constructive is also there, the goalposts for the future reinteraction of divine with humanity (visibly {by the extensive destruction everywhere }and beyond any shadow of doubt) gets further shifted to the indefinite future , Under such circumstances the people becomes the only resource to observe and infer for if a living man By demonstration is pious and righteousness but yet suffers disproportionate reverses of calamity ,well then that might throw light on the fact that something in this whole business was misconstrued
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September 22, 2017 at 12:46 pm
Mr. N J Chetia:
From where I sit, that miscontrual, correctly stated, was the maintenance of the Church Dogma of supernaturalism because it was something for which there is no evidence and operates only on a belief system that if it cannot be verified or observable still permeates the mindsets of billions of people from the superstitious tradition of Tibetans to the Voodooism of Africa to the Christians that would not allow the Pharisaical supernaturalism to be abandoned and so hid behind the mindsets that defy common sense.
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September 22, 2017 at 2:34 pm
Leo, thank you I will have a nice eternity……with Jesus,
Enjoy the worms….
Naz
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September 22, 2017 at 5:01 pm
“Derek, as I said, I don’t think we are going to find any common ground.”
So…just to be clear…you’re not disputing any of the facts I’ve presented, you just disagree with them?
“You have a lot of issues with God, Jesus the bible etc…”
Well, to be fair I also have a lot of issues with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the Spanish Inquisition, among others. I have issues with anyone who deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or suffering.
“I could provide you explanations and interpretations but you would find a way to rationalize them to your point of view. I suppose I would do the same.”
Then why don’t you? As the saying goes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That’s why the more powerful someone is, the more his actions must be scrutinized and viewed with healthy skepticism. Since the Bible in numerous places shows God committing or condoning what is arguably murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, incest, cannibalism, betrayal, lying, megalomania, sociopathy and narcissism (I can provide the exact scripture, if you’d like), should we not be suspicious and alarmed? I have trouble understanding why any moral person would turn a blind eye to anyone committing behaviors we regard as evil when committed by any human. Surely we should hold God to a higher standard than any human.
“It seems you have a lot of bible knowledge so I wonder if you were hurt by a particular church group in your past that brought you to this point.”
No. I grew up all over the world and developed an interest in why people believe what they believe, especially in regard to religions. That led me to reading the Bible cover-to-cover, multiple times in multiple versions, as well as reading countless articles by biblical scholars. That was eye-opening! And when I asked various Christians what they thought about God’s alarming behavior throughout the Bible, imagine my surprise when I discovered almost NONE of them had even read the entire Bible even once! There’s a lot of stuff in there that no pastor ever brings up in church…and I can see why.
“They promise you freedom and salvation but after a while it all bogs down to do’s and don’ts and how committed you are and soon people end up disillusioned, confused and at worst with major spiritual damage.”
But that’s what’s in the Bible. Unless one is willing to assume the Bible isn’t the actual word of God, but man’s attempts to express what they believe about God, one runs into a lot of do’s and don’ts…and some of them are just untenable. Like when Jesus says you have to hate your family, or the commandment against any form of representative art, or that God plans even our very steps, for example. So one HAS to interpret those passages metaphorically, equivocatingly or relatively in order to bring them in line with how people want to believe in God. But then that leads to questioning the validity of pretty much EVERY supernatural claim in the Bible. That’s why there are over 40,000 denominations within Christianity, more than any other religion, and many of those denominations subscribe to doctrine that is mutually contradictory with other denominations (e.g., Protestantism, Catholicism, Calvinism, Mormonism). It results in frequent conflicts (as you can see on this very thread). For that reason, I base my beliefs strictly on hard evidence, and everything else is conditional at best. That seems the only rational approach to me, but most Christians insist I will burn in hell for all eternity for thinking that way. I don’t that helps their case.
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September 22, 2017 at 5:23 pm
“When you can figure out a solution to death and rotting in a wooden box, let me know and let the world know because that will be great news !”
Is that a problem that needs solving? If it turns out death is exactly like it was before we were even conceived, that seems like a preferable alternative to what the Bible says about the afterlife. An eternity is an AWFULLY long time, and what meaning could possibly survive that? Obviously an eternal hell would be unpleasant, but what the Bible actually says about heaven is also disturbing, though in a different way. For instance, this innocuous-seeming passage:
• Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.”
This implies that our memories would be effectively erased, since how else could you not remember our current Earth? No memories implies not even recognizing one’s own family members. And wouldn’t that imply that the whole “test on Earth” concept is pointless? That seems like a fate arguably worse than hell…because what are we if not our memories?
Another issue, to bring this back to the topic of this thread, is that surely there could be no free will in heaven. After all, the Bible says of heaven:
• Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful.
• Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse.
If you won’t be able to commit evil in heaven, then you won’t have free will…certainly not the kind of free will Christians say we must have on Earth…which means that God isn’t really concerned with us having free will…which ties into my original argument that the Bible indicates free will doesn’t exist.
You see how it all ties together? It seems that free will is the bedrock of Christianity…yet there is precious little evidence in the Bible that it even exists, while there is so much that indicates free will does not exist.
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September 22, 2017 at 6:21 pm
Hi Derek
I like your writing style and your courageous honesty.
Perhaps unification with God in the after-life causes a permanent state of euphoria?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 22, 2017 at 6:28 pm
Dear readers,
I know that I misunderstand much about God and what is revealed by the accepted scriptures and that’s the main reason I like this forum for discussion and learning.
It is important to me to be as honest as I can be both to myself and to others. Anyone who accuses others of cherry picking from the scriptures and then gives quotes in support of a point of faith is doing just that. For example, there are quotes that speak of salvation by faith; salvation by pre-destination; and universal salvation. Two links below explain better than I can:
http://www.roomfordoubt.com/examine/2/Questions-of-Faith/74/Does-God-choose-who-will-be-saved-and-who-will-be-lost
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
I am mindful when I use a quote from the four accepted Gospels that these are accounts of what Jesus may have said since nobody took notes at the time and they were written decades after He left this earth. This may explain why some of the quotes seem un-Chrstlike. In my view, Christ is unlikely to have said, “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Good were it for that man if he had never been born.”
A link that I found informative about the history of the gospels is below:
http://www.humanreligions.info/gospels.html
After reading from it, I stopped using the phrase, “Jesus said………”
Leo, thank you for your interpretation of the account of Noah’s drunkenness. I found the reference from Leviticus particularly useful:
Leviticus 18:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 22, 2017 at 6:30 pm
Messiah & Redeemer:
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9
“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” (Hebrews 1:1-4, 8-12)
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September 23, 2017 at 1:42 am
“see, I will create new heavens and a new earth, the former things will not be remembered nor will thy come to mind “.Then this is it seconds after death. This is exactly what the family doctor shall also tell you. But what of all the minutes of thrill that was lost, the cash that had to be rationed off, the peace and ecstacy tolerating other people’s religious beliefs and culture, the moments of dehumanising the self consciously when neighbors friends colleagues, and friends from /at overseas had to be momentarily snubbed for following the (sinners) and infidels religion. All of which that had to be sacrificed to self control due to unfunded dogma of schemers and zealots.what about those parts of precious life which was wasted and lost
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September 23, 2017 at 2:39 am
Please read as UNFOUNDED in place of unfunded. Schemers and Zealots – no correction
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September 23, 2017 at 9:03 am
Derek, I don’t think any of us can appreciate or comprehend the scope and magnitude of sin. While you make reference to God’s judgments in the old testament, you don’t make any mention of his acts of mercy. While the judgments that God executed were harsh, maybe there was a reason it was done beyond your understanding. You mentioned Hitler, should we have let Hitler win or make peace with him ? After all it’s not very moral to kill a raving lunatic who want to rule the world, is it ? I think if you think things through you will see that “morality” is not so cut and dry as you think. The takeaway from God executing judgement is that in the end Christ has taken the full penalty for sin in our place, surely an ultimate act of mercy that vindicates God and saves us.
As for God wiping out our memory, this verse does not say that.
Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.”
Does that mean that the verse below means God’s memory is erased ? If something is not remembered does it mean a person’s memory has been erased ?
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake; and I will not remember thy sins.
As far as not being able to sin in the afterlife, this is a by-product of the resurrection and not an infringement on our free will. I’ll give you an analogy, my dog is not capable of laughing, it’s not in her nature, in the same way we will not be capable of sinning. Thank God for that.
DinoConstant, a Jesus without the resurrection is no Jesus at all. A Jesus with no supernatural resurrection = no salvation for anybody. You have to do some serious cherry picking of the scriptures to state that Jesus was not physically resurrected.
The predestined passages don’t refer to individual persons but refers to God’s plan to also save the Gentiles in addition to the Jews. If you read Romans 10 and 11 I think the context about predestination is a Jew versus Gentile context, not God walking down the street and picking individual persons for heaven and hell. In the end God has offered salvation to all. Those that believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son according to God’s foreknowledge.
Universal salvation is false notion, although I can think of some cases where God will save those that cannot think for themselves such as handicapped or babies etc….because He is good and just. But that’s another discussion.
The idea of universal salvation breaks down because of the many passages that talk about that believe and those that don’t. Also the many warnings of not hardening your heart etc… makes it clear that a decision by person who hears the gospel must be made. What makes one person believe another not believe, I don’t know ? My opinion and belief is that it is free will.
Naz
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September 23, 2017 at 5:31 pm
The gospels were written by obscure persons in the third person as a story of a legend, scores of such gospel were discarded for being inaccurate with the general line of the narrative, four were approved, and even there there were edits for making news worthy and copywriter insertions for making more convincing . But this was done in an ancient time when sensibilities were different for if a preacher was to preach today that the saved shall go to heaven but as a piece of log timber then there shall be few takers. This is because when man is mobilised to go to heaven he expects to get there with his integrity (minus the body which is acceptably lost) so most might ask for their deposit back from the preacher if Isaiah 65:17 gets diplomatic in meaning .Modern astronomers are scouring the universe for habitable earth like planets but failed to find “the promised planet ”
On Sep 23, 2017 21:33, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> Naz commented: “Derek, I don’t think any of us can appreciate or > comprehend the scope and magnitude of sin. While you make reference to > God’s judgments in the old testament, you don’t make any mention of his > acts of mercy. While the judgments that God executed were harsh” >
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September 24, 2017 at 7:43 am
Frank:
You are simply stating what man believes God is or should be like; it’s nothing about God; it’s everything about the men who decide the God everybody needs.
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September 24, 2017 at 8:12 am
Dino
that passage from Leviticus, 18:8 was indeed a mind’s eye opener for me when I stumbled upon it…………… finally I understood what Ham had actually done. However the blind will remain blind lest they see and open their mind’s eye.
Dino this speaks to you:
“Matthew 13:12-17
“You’ve been given insight into God’s kingdom. You know how it works. Not everybody has this gift, this insight; it hasn’t been given to them. Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears. That’s why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they’re blue in the face and not get it. I don’t want Isaiah’s forecast repeated all over again:
Your ears are open but you don’t hear a thing.
Your eyes are awake but you don’t see a thing.
The people are blockheads!
They stick their fingers in their ears
so they won’t have to listen;
They screw their eyes shut
so they won’t have to look,
so they won’t have to deal with me face-to-face
and let me heal them.
“But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.
Again KJV, “….many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”
“The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven. Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?…
Where besides Isaiah 6:10; Matthew 13:13; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; Jeremiah 5:21; Ezekiel 12:2; Acts 28:27; Romans 11:8 “God has given them a spirit of stupor; Deuteronomy 29:4;
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September 24, 2017 at 9:28 am
Dino:
It’s all over the bible; in every generation…this is nothing new; every generation has it’s stupors. But we need to tell them what they refuse to accept…Wow, and how many did Jesus have to contend with in his revolutionizing teachings trying to reform the hard core dogma to amgod? It’s no small wonder why his soul was troubled in the Garden of Gethsemane; it was an emotional high for Jesus having just been told by Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, members of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish council of elders, that Judas would be leading the Officers to Jesus on the very night he planned to be in the Garden. The time Jesus knew would come was at hand.
Anything you do that derives from other than letting Divine Logic do it, is sin. Sin isn’t an act. Sin is that errant, conceited attitude of human self sufficiency. Sin is that attitude that says Divine Logic is for old women and those who need a crutch. That’s just where you’re wrong. You’re the devil’s dupe. That’s why your life is so twisted. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, in the day that man believed the devil’s lie that a man could be man with a supernatural God and not the Divine Logic within you and embarked on that mad experiment of human self sufficiency, the holy spirit was withdrawn from the human spirit and man had a body and a soul just like any other animal but not being protected by instinct couldn’t behave like an animal and not now being governed by the Father within couldn’t behave like a man so he behaves like the maniac he does and you and I are the heirs of the chaos and the anarchy and holocaust that is the inevitable consequence of man’s stupidity and Divine Logic is saying GET BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG!
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September 24, 2017 at 12:47 pm
“Hi Derek
I like your writing style and your courageous honesty.”
Well thank you. I try!
“Perhaps unification with God in the after-life causes a permanent state of euphoria?”
Who knows? But there’s a reason euphoria is such a rare state for humans: nobody ever accomplishes anything while euphoric (well, except to reproduce, I suppose 😉 ). Drug addicts in a drug-induced euphoria are among the least productive, least accomplished people in society. If the ultimate meaning of life is to exist in a state of euphoria, then I’ll pass, thanks. Meaning for me is accomplishing something significant. We wouldn’t like it if someone else decided what our favorite food or favorite hobby would be, so why would we want anyone else to decide what gives us meaning?
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September 24, 2017 at 2:11 pm
“Derek, I don’t think any of us can appreciate or comprehend the scope and magnitude of sin.”
But if you believe God is all knowing and all powerful, then you have to acknowledge that he knew before he even created the universe that if he chose THIS specific universe to create (out of the infinite variety an all-knowing being could imagine and all-powerful being could create) that such sin would result, right? That HAS to be true, by definition. So that has to mean this is the universe God WANTED to exist. Sin can’t be an unfortunate consequence of free will (even if we ignore the evidence that God determines everything and thus free will is only an illusion), because God COULD have chosen to create one of the infinite universes where Lucifer didn’t rebel and Adam and Eve didn’t disobey…universes that MUST be possible to exist if CHOICE actually exists. So the only rational conclusion is that God WANTED sin to exist. He is the one entirely responsible for its existence in our universe. Right? Tell me if there’s any flaw in my logic here.
“While you make reference to God’s judgments in the old testament, you don’t make any mention of his acts of mercy.”
Well, that’s because if God is entirely responsible for the existence of sin, then his mercy is meaningless, isn’t it? It would be like a judge forcing you to commit a crime, then magnanimously offering not to punish you for committing that crime as long as you accept his “forgiveness” (or be tortured forever). Right?
“While the judgments that God executed were harsh, maybe there was a reason it was done beyond your understanding.”
Perhaps so. If God has a good, reasonable, just reason for his behavior, then he’s perfectly capable of making that fully clear to us (all knowing and all powerful, remember?). But until then we must pass judgement on what we KNOW, not what we DON’T know. Otherwise we risk abdicating our moral compass to evil (like those who supported Hitler, despite the evidence he was committing atrocities).
“You mentioned Hitler, should we have let Hitler win or make peace with him ? After all it’s not very moral to kill a raving lunatic who want to rule the world, is it ?”
Unlike God, we are humans, limited by human abilities. The best we could do was to either lock Hitler up or kill him for the sake of society. Not so God. He could have prevented his birth, altered his life’s trajectory, or even taken control of Hitler’s mind as he did with Pharaoh so he could show off his powers. He did none of those things. In fact, Hitler believed that “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter,” and he believed he was acting “in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” Is he any different from Moses, whom God ordered to direct his men to kill their own friends and families in Exodus 32:27-29?
“I think if you think things through you will see that “morality” is not so cut and dry as you think.”
Oh, I agree morality isn’t always so cut and dry (look up “the trolley problem” for an excellent example, particularly the “transplant” variant). But, again, that is from the perspective of a limited human. God, OTOH, is not limited to struggling with morally ambiguous issues, since he can by definition easily avoid them even occurring. And yet he orders some pretty brutal behaviors that aren’t even close to being ambiguously moral. For instance:
• 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
• Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
In one case he orders innocent babies hacked to death. In another, he allows slaves to be so badly beaten that they take days to even get back to their feet. Can anyone condoning such behavior be considered morally good?
“If something is not remembered does it mean a person’s memory has been erased ? Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake; and I will not remember thy sins.”
That is a good example. It’s what a person would say when deciding to overlook someone’s transgressions, to forget that they ever happened. And when the Bible says that the former Earth will not be remembered nor come to mind, the implication is that everyone will also forget that anything ever happened. But this is not just about forgetting someone’s transgressions; it’s about forgetting ALL “former things.” How else to read that but effectively having your memories erased? Is there any significant difference between that and just putting something out of your head such that you never think about it again? The end result is the same.
“As far as not being able to sin in the afterlife, this is a by-product of the resurrection and not an infringement on our free will. I’ll give you an analogy, my dog is not capable of laughing, it’s not in her nature, in the same way we will not be capable of sinning. Thank God for that.”
Then what is the point of allowing sin in this life? The Christian claim is that God wants people to love him freely, which is why he gives us the free will to commit sin. If one can’t sin in heaven–because it won’t be in our nature–then clearly the ability to sin is not necessary in order to love. So where is the justification for God allowing sin to exist in the first place? It renders this entire life a farce, does it not? Would not being able to commit atrocities have any impact on our ability to love? Clearly not. So what is the logical conclusion? As I said at the beginning of this post regarding the creation of this universe, God must WANT sin to exist. I don’t think there’s any other rational way to look at it…unless one concludes that God is NOT all powerful and all knowing.
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September 24, 2017 at 3:43 pm
Hi Naz
I don’t know why you wrote to me, in comment number 114,
“DinoConstant, a Jesus without the resurrection is no Jesus at all. A Jesus with no supernatural resurrection = no salvation for anybody. You have to do some serious cherry picking of the scriptures to state that Jesus was not physically resurrected.” You ignore the possibility that someone may come to that view without reference to the Bible. Many socialists believe that Christ was a revolutionary, not a Deity, but please do not defame me for writing this as though it is my view.
I did not write about the various beliefs but provided links that readers might find useful. You provided your own view about Predestination, “The predestined passages don’t refer to individual persons but refers to God’s plan to also save the Gentiles in addition to the Jews.” Surely, readers do not need you to condense and interpret the detailed article on Calvinism etc.
I ask you to take the care that is expected of everyone on this forum when commenting about what people write.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 24, 2017 at 3:58 pm
Naz:
I believe may be suffering from a case of a delusional mental illness that is marked by feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur; something like a megalomaniac like the dotard Donald Trump.
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September 24, 2017 at 5:40 pm
Hi Derek
While I don’t condone the use of illicit drugs, people have alluded to the likelihood that Walt Disney may have been on drugs when he created some of his best work. I’m not stating this as a fact. The link below may be of interest:
https://www.bustle.com/articles/99650-7-drug-references-in-disney-movies-from-alice-in-wonderland-to-peter-pan-these-movies
I find it hard to be certain about anything but I think I could live with a permanent state of euphoria if this what happens when humanity is united with God – remember the film, “The Matrix.”
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 24, 2017 at 8:00 pm
Isiah 65:17 see I will CREATE NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH. The former things will not be remembered nor will thy come to mind. Candidly both earth and heaven is mentioned. During those days exact words and phrases to describe what exactly is being meant was available, we may assume that if an afterlife in heaven was being described then NEW EARTH needs no mention. Even new earth could be expressed with embellished words to describe an ethereal world (that exists like paradise) if it stands for that. Both NEW earth and heaven was described but with – the former things will not be remembered nor will thy come to mind. BUT DOES HINT TO A REINCARNATION without the memory of the former existence the same god almighty – heaven – earth – man equation continues. Will human anthropology shed some more light, ancient Hindu religion which predates the gospel belives in reincarnation and Hinduism was of Aryans, due to worldwide mobility did anthropological influences lay down condition for the development of the gospel
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September 24, 2017 at 9:15 pm
Correction to the sentence it should be DOES THAT HINT TO A REINCARNATION? Further I would like to add that if the memory is erased and without a physical body, a “person” shall not in any way know if he gets sown to a woumb……… For a rerun. Is this why there are cases of persons appearing who recalls their previous life. The world population bureau estimated that 107.7 billion people were born throughout history out of which 7 billion lives today, what purpose will it serve to keep 100.7 billion people for eternity in heaven /hell, other than to recycle them through a eternal cycle of regeneration. Seriously though required
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September 24, 2017 at 9:20 pm
Correction to the last sentence – it should be serious thought required. This is driving me nuts, perhaps I need a break
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September 25, 2017 at 2:48 am
Regards,
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September 25, 2017 at 2:49 am
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September 25, 2017 at 2:49 am
http://justforgalz.com/
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September 25, 2017 at 2:49 am
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September 25, 2017 at 6:31 am
Dinoconstant, I did try to defame you or imply anything about your viewpoints.
I was simply trying to give my viewpoints on the resurrection and predestination.
I don’t see what the issue is but if you feel slighted, I’m sorry for that.
Naz
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September 25, 2017 at 6:43 am
Derek, I think you unintentionally proved my point about free will based on the fact that sin exists. Yes, free will has caused sin to occur and yes God did not stop it from occurring. He could have created a universe with no free will but He didn’t as far as I can tell.
The idea that God should fix everything that is wrong on the earth is a false idea created by those that think this world is all that there is. There is a greater long term plan that goes beyond our present existence. At that time we will have all the difficult questions answered.
Cheers.
Naz
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September 25, 2017 at 9:19 am
Hi Naz
Thank you for your apology.
If your comments were for readers in general, there was no need to address them to me, “DinoConstant, a Jesus without the resurrection is no Jesus at all………” Earlier in your post 114, you named Derek before replying to him.
There is much to be commended for writing to readers in general although this is not always appropriate. Mainly it avoids unnecessary personal conflicts.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 25, 2017 at 10:14 am
Hi Dinoconstant, actually I was addressing you directly since you referenced my “cherry picking” comment in post #110. My response (#114) was directed at you in defense of my comments to Leo.
I hope that clears this up. You can respond directly to me regarding my comments, I don’t have a problem with that. Thanks.
Peace.
Naz
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September 25, 2017 at 11:02 am
Hi Naz!
You have finally revealed that you directed your comments at me in defence of your comments to Leo. Well done! I called for honesty and it finally surfaced.
My thoughts in post #110 were addressed to “Dear readers” and not to you. Further, I actually wrote,
“Anyone who accuses others of cherry picking from the scriptures and then gives quotes in support of a point of faith is doing just that.”
I considered this a general statement of fact and it was never intended to be a reference to your comments to Leo!
Also, some care should be given when writing comments. We all omit words occasionally and most of us can work out which word was omitted but did you realise that you wrote, “Dinoconstant, I did try to defame you or imply anything about your viewpoints” in your post #131?
The point is that I never stated that Jesus was not resurrected etc, and your presentation suggested that I had. That is important to me and I considered it to be defamatory.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 25, 2017 at 11:47 am
Dumb reply.
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September 25, 2017 at 11:48 am
Dumb reply Shad:
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September 25, 2017 at 11:53 am
NAZ:
You don’t imagine that God takes any pleasure in having a heaven filled with men and women who will be as useless in heaven as they were on earth? Stacked in bundles of 10, dusted with DDT once a week by a bunch of angels, do you imagine that’s what heaven’s going to be like? Heaven is going to be populated with men, women, boys and girls, who’ve been restored to their redeemed and now true humanity because in the day that the Lord Jesus comes John in his 1st epistle 3rd chapter first 2 verses: beloved what manner of love the father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God.
If you cannot reason on earth none of your difficulties will ever be known but you can hear them now from Jesus, through me and Dino and Derek and Paul and others who’ve tried top help you.
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September 25, 2017 at 11:54 am
Dinoconstant, I left out the word “not” by accident in post #131. Oops !
Naz
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September 25, 2017 at 8:31 pm
Hi Leo
I was surprised to find someone else who understands the story of Ham and Canaan’s shame. The link below refers:
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 26, 2017 at 9:56 am
Dino:
Congratulations. You screen and search and your mind seeks to verify. It was the same when I searched for anyone who understood the same conclusion I had arrived at independently and like you, was amazed when I found another person who affirmed my own finding.
It was actually stunning to find blurred reference phrases buried in other places than in Genesis.
So when someone tells me what certain things in the bible mean, I screen and search and verify; most times, I admit, they don’t know what they’re talking about and merely use somebody else’s talking points who had no understanding and so they themselves perpetuate things that make no sense.
When you read and study long enough, things begin to click in your memory and suddenly you realize that two of the secret disciples of Jesus were Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus both members of the Sanhedrin and among the wealthiest men in town. Now with those secret resources it was not obvious to anyone at the time that when water was turned into wine and the multitudes fed like an ancient McDonalds who supplied the goods and when Jesus knew of Judas the traitor and the time and place of his arrest, from whom did that knowledge? And when he met during the last days on the mountain commonly called the Transfiguration it was not Moses & Elijah that the disciples presumed to see…it was Nic and Joe who delivered the final date and time and place….Gethsemane…….and their plan to save Jesus from the death the Jewish Council had been planning for months; as a matter of fact, if you search the scriptures you’ll find that Joseph had hewn out the very tomb wherein Jesus was laid for two years, that it was Joseph who consulted with Ponticus Pilate to release the body and that the only two people with Jesus as the body was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb…well, who else but Nic and Joe.
An excerpt:
Saint Joseph of Arimathea’s and Nicodemus’ Story
The actions of these two influential Jewish leaders give insight into the charismatic power of Jesus and his teachings—and the risks that could be involved in following him.
Joseph was a respected, wealthy civic leader who had become a disciple of Jesus. Following the death of Jesus, Joseph obtained Jesus’ body from Pilate, wrapped it in fine linen and buried it. For these reasons, Joseph is considered the patron saint of funeral directors and pallbearers. More important is the courage Joseph showed in asking Pilate for Jesus’ body. Jesus was a condemned criminal who had been publicly executed. According to some legends, Joseph was punished and imprisoned for such a bold act.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee and, like Joseph, an important first-century Jew. We know from John’s Gospel that Nicodemus went to Jesus at night—secretly—to better understand his teachings about the kingdom. Later, he spoke up for Jesus at the time of his arrest:
John 7: 50 “Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They (enraged they “jumped down his throat” {idiom} ) and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
53 And every man went unto his own house,
and assisted Joseph in Jesus’ burial. We know little else about Nicodemus.
The St. Nicodemus and St. Joseph of Arimathea Church is the name given to a religious building that is affiliated with the Catholic Church and is located in the town of Ramla the capital city of Central District in Israel.
The present church was built in the nineteenth century on a site that faithful Christians claim is the biblical Arimathea, the hometown of Joseph, a character who, according to Christian tradition, was the owner of the tomb in which was deposited the body of Jesus after the crucifixion.
This is a managed by the order of the Franciscans
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September 26, 2017 at 1:19 pm
“While I don’t condone the use of illicit drugs, people have alluded to the likelihood that Walt Disney may have been on drugs when he created some of his best work.”
Speaking for myself, I’ve never done illicit drugs. I’ve had literally only a few drinks in my life and never been drunk. The thought just doesn’t appeal to me. I started to get a buzz off cough medicine when I had a bad cold long ago, and I did not enjoy the feeling.
“I find it hard to be certain about anything but I think I could live with a permanent state of euphoria if this what happens when humanity is united with God – remember the film, “The Matrix.””
Well, for the reason I gave above, I would have no interest in permanent euphoria. I don’t see how it would be much different from nonexistence. Challenges are what give life meaning, and a permanent state of euphoria would offer no challenges. But that’s just my take.
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September 26, 2017 at 1:32 pm
“BUT DOES HINT TO A REINCARNATION without the memory of the former existence”
That is how reincarnation supposedly works: no memory. To me that renders the whole concept of reincarnation pointless. If you don’t remember your past, you can’t learn from your mistakes, which makes achieving Nirvana pretty much like stumbling around in the dark.
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September 26, 2017 at 2:11 pm
“Derek, I think you unintentionally proved my point about free will based on the fact that sin exists. Yes, free will has caused sin to occur and yes God did not stop it from occurring. He could have created a universe with no free will but He didn’t as far as I can tell.”
Hmm, I think you missed the point. My previous post was intended to show that EVEN IF free will exists, God is still entirely responsible for evil.
Let me be more specific: If God is all powerful and all knowing, then by definition he can create ANY universe he wants AND he knows everything about those potential universes. If choice exists–REGARDLESS of whether free will exists–then there has to be an infinite number of potential universes where Lucifer never rebelled, Adam and Eve never disobeyed, and so on. This is true whether God ultimately decides all our actions or we have control over our own actions, so the existence of sin doesn’t have anything to do with whether free will exists or not. EITHER WAY, God deliberately chose to create one of the universes where Lucifer DID rebel and A&E DID disobey. He KNEW with 100% certainty that they would do so, either because he purposely created them to make those choices or he knew that they would make those choices with their own free will. Free will or not, God COULD have chosen to go with one of the universes where nobody would make the wrong choices. But he did not do this. He made the DELIBERATE choice to create a universe that would become filled with sin.
That makes GOD entirely responsible for the existence of sin. Yet he blames humanity for HIS choices. Worse, he severely PUNISHES humanity (most Christians believe for all eternity) for behavior HE chose to occur. I don’t know about you, but it sounds to me like the inevitable conclusion is that God is malevolent. Even if he chose one of the universes where SOME people are saved, that still leaves the vast majority of humanity destined for hell, so the malevolence vastly outweighs the benevolence.
If you can find any flaw in my logic, I’d love to hear it. But I think the argument is pretty solid.
“There is a greater long term plan that goes beyond our present existence. At that time we will have all the difficult questions answered.”
Clearly that “greater long term plan” involves the vast majority of humanity being tortured forever (or tortured for just a little while, depending on your denomination) in the fires of hell, with no hope of redemption. And all you have to do to deserve that fate is simply not believe the God of the Bible exists. Is there any conceivable way such an act can be considered moral and just?
Regardless, is ignoring APPARENT evil behavior in the hopes that there is some good explanation for that behavior justified? I think history teaches us otherwise.
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September 26, 2017 at 2:35 pm
Thank you, Leo, for your thoughts. I shall do some research.
Thank you, Derek, I understand and fully respect your view about your need for challenges. I’m just saying that some of us want a kind of consciousness in a permanent state of peace and tranquillity. For me, I am a pacifist, as was my father, and I rail at all the conflict and loss of human life in the trouble spots of the world. I would not look forward to life after a nuclear war on a radioactively polluted planet.
I agree with you completely about reincarnation; without memory, you can’t learn from your mistakes. As Confucius wrote,
“There are three ways of acting wisely:
Through meditation – this is the noblest;
By imitation – this is the easiest;
Through experience – this is the bitterest.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 26, 2017 at 3:31 pm
Hi Derek
I cannot see any flaws in your logic.
The problem is the human mind is disinclined to accept criticism of its beliefs and defends those beliefs as if it itself is being attacked.
A saying from Epicurus which is quite interesting:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence came evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus (341 -270 BC)
As Leo has pointed out, the KJV of the Bible appears to be more honest and revealing than most of the other versions. Below is a relevant extract about ‘evil’ that is fudged elsewhere:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 New International Version (NIV)
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
I’m writing this to you as I know you will understand. It’s not my intention to cause ill-feeling to those who believe that the God of the Bible is good and just. My only motive is to present my views honestly.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 26, 2017 at 8:27 pm
“That is how reincarnation supposedly works……… ” Nirvana is the Buddhist concept, a differing concept is Moksha of Hinduism.One can learn the difference from the resource https:www.quora.com>what-is-the-difference-between-moksha-and-nirvana
Yes from the perspective of the person your logic is faithful.Because the person is entirely separate from the soul dimension and the two shall never meet to the point of conscious communication between the two we may say one simply does not know or recognize the other.To this point alone we might recall the Christian belief on one life, I have read all the posts and what you have reasoned about – at least in me you have one follower (in the cyber language of course),I find that the greater religion thought about by man (through whatever Divine interventions) has accomodative features for all possible desires [of the heart] of men, but when this greater religion is compartmentalised only then strictures limit liberties. I invite all readers to visit with a broad mind the following resource. http://www.hinduismexposed.org/ This has a brief note on the features of all the three major religions of the world. You see you shall not lose an inch of you own religion if you look at a comparison nor should you try to lose an inch just because you had the chance (you might on the contrary reaffirm your commitment to your own religion) ,i encourage you to go ahead, you might find answers to some of your questions albeit in a philosophical sense. Regarding planet earth being, to our limited presumed knowledge, the only stage for the eternal drama of human life (and afterlife), I find it very interesting that the data of the world population bureau, = 107.7billion people were born in total in the human race so far, this then ought to be made up of the product of factors A and B ………n(which represents the different generations of people) and exponent x which is number of generations born so far which included the people philosophically held to be in heaven and in hell, and for Hinduism we expect that the standard for scoring points should in all probability be so difficult that nearly all persons must be passing through rebirths (earth being the transit station of their journeys) on earth
On Sep 27, 2017 02:02, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
derekmathias commented: “”BUT DOES HINT TO A REINCARNATION without the memory of the former existence” That is how reincarnation supposedly works: no memory. To me that renders the whole concept of reincarnation pointless. If you don’t remember your past, you can’t learn from “
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September 27, 2017 at 10:20 am
Derek, yes I find flaws in your logic.
So what you’re saying is, because God chose to make a universe where choice exists, He is ultimately responsible for everyone making wrong or bad choices and ultimately responsible and culpable for all evil in the world.
You call that a sold argument ? Really ?
This is passing the buck to the extreme !
I wonder what would happen the court of Law when a murderer cries out to the judge and says, “Your honor, it’s not my fault, God gave me free will to choose, it’s His fault, you can’t blame me !! ”
Derek, there are many actors on the stage of life, not just God. The drunk driver that kills the innocent is responsible for his actions, not God. You argument is untenable in reality.
I will give you this much, we inherited our propensity to sin from Adam, at no fault of our own. So in this sense it’s not fair that we are “wired” like this and that God will judge us according to our deeds. However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER….God has made a way to reverse this curse, if you want to call it that, in Jesus Christ, again by no effort of our own. If you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and receive Him into your life, you will not be judged according to your deeds.
Also consider that God deliberately chose to come in the flesh and suffer shame and death for you and me. If He was so malevolent why would He bother to do this ? He came to give life out of a pure love for humanity but He will not force that on anybody, He will not defy your choice regardless of the consequences. You alluded to an eternity of torture, we don’t know if that is the case, it could be a quick extermination from existence, we don’t know.
Apparently, it’s a big deal to reject Jesus Christ, at least God thinks so if you believe the veracity of the scriptures.
Heb 10:29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace? (ISV)
Are you going to gamble you eternity because you have issues with God allowing sin and evil to continue in our world and then try to blame Him for it ? What if your missing the point ? What if you are wrong ? Has it occurred to you that this is not Heaven ? What if part of the plan is for us to see the huge contrast of the old world, now, and the new heavens and the new earth ? As for euphoria, I’m not big on that either and hope there is something meaningful to do as well, I’m sure it’s not what we would expect…
This is more than a mental exercise of “believing in the God of the bible” as you put it. The scripture says even the devils believe…. This is even more than an intellectual exercise of proving without a shadow of a doubt that God exists based on some scientific formula etc… This is a disposition, it’s a knowing deep in your heart. I don’t understand how we come to this place but it happens for many people and will continue to happen. Even many Christians don’t fully understand the magnitude of the grace of God. I am only now after 20 years of faith starting to comprehend it. Most believers are very religious and don’t know what takes place when a person becomes a child of God. There is an identity change and life transfer that cannot be undone. It’s Christ’s life being given to you and it becomes your life, no strings attached.
I realize the God of the bible offends your sense of justice, but I urge you to step back and consider there are good and just reasons why people have been judged and are going to be judged by the God of the universe. Also, based on the tremendous upside of eternal life, I can live without knowing or understanding all the details of why God chose to exterminate the Canaanites etc….
I don’t want to be standing in that day trying to tell the God of the universe why He is wrong.
Cheers.
Naz
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September 28, 2017 at 1:23 pm
“Thank you, Derek, I understand and fully respect your view about your need for challenges. I’m just saying that some of us want a kind of consciousness in a permanent state of peace and tranquillity.”
Fair enough…although the challenges I’m referring to are positive ones, like writing a novel, figuring out an elusive puzzle, besting performance, that sort of thing. That’s not incompatible with peace and tranquility (depending on one’s definitions). Just saying.
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September 28, 2017 at 1:24 pm
“I’m writing this to you as I know you will understand. It’s not my intention to cause ill-feeling to those who believe that the God of the Bible is good and just. My only motive is to present my views honestly.”
My sentiments exactly.
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September 28, 2017 at 2:44 pm
“So what you’re saying is, because God chose to make a universe where choice exists, He is ultimately responsible for everyone making wrong or bad choices and ultimately responsible and culpable for all evil in the world.”
No, I’m saying the exact OPPOSITE of that. I’m not sure you clearly read my statement. I’m saying that if choice exists, then there HAVE to exist in God’s mind universes where people make the “right” choices and universes where people make the “wrong” choices. This is true REGARDLESS of whether or not free will exists. Surely that makes perfect sense to you so far, right? Now God COULD have chosen to create one of those universes where everyone makes the right decision, correct? But he DIDN’T. He chose to create THIS one instead, the one where Lucifer rebelled, Adam and Eve disobeyed, and so on.
So YES, God created a universe where choice exists–that was never in dispute. Whether or not those choices are free will choices IS in dispute, since the Bible is clear that God plans EVERYTHING, including our very steps. But EVEN IF we ignore all those passages and just assume your claim that free will exists is true, the fact remains that God chose to create one of the universes where nearly everyone makes the WRONG choices. That MUST mean he WANTED things to turn out this way, because otherwise he would have chosen to create one of the universes where people use their free will to make the RIGHT decisions.
That conclusion appears so clearly logical to me that I don’t understand why you insist otherwise. Can you explain to me where the flaw is in my logic?
“I wonder what would happen the court of Law when a murderer cries out to the judge and says, “Your honor, it’s not my fault, God gave me free will to choose, it’s His fault, you can’t blame me !! ””
That is called an appeal to the consequence, which is a logical fallacy. Just because you may not like the consequences doesn’t invalidate a conclusion. But to respond to that scenario, part of what guides behavior are the consequences of that behavior, which is why laws and punishment are necessary (within human societies) in order to deter undesirable behavior. This is true REGARDLESS of whether or not free will exists. A dead branch doesn’t have the free will whether to choose to fall and damage my car or not, but that doesn’t mean I won’t take measures to ensure the branch doesn’t fall on my car.
“I will give you this much, we inherited our propensity to sin from Adam, at no fault of our own. So in this sense it’s not fair that we are “wired” like this and that God will judge us according to our deeds. However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER….God has made a way to reverse this curse, if you want to call it that, in Jesus Christ, again by no effort of our own.”
I’m glad that you understand it is an injustice that God blames us for predilections for behavior that is due to no fault of our own…but the “reverse” you mention doesn’t correct this injustice, and the reason is because it actually DOES require effort of our own. After all, if you don’t accept God’s “forgiveness” and worship him, then you go to hell.
Think about it: If someone were to poison you, but then offer you the antidote on the condition that you accept his forgiveness for you being poisoned and that you worship him…would that be in any way just? The people who were POISONED are the only ones who can forgive in that scenario, and they are the only ones who can put conditions on that forgiveness. The poisoner does not hold the moral high ground here.
“Also consider that God deliberately chose to come in the flesh and suffer shame and death for you and me. If He was so malevolent why would He bother to do this ?”
Well, since Jesus was resurrected better than new after three days…where’s the sacrifice? If God is all powerful and all knowing, then suffering shame and death is completely unnecessary, right? God could simply forgive us (although I’m not sure what we need forgiveness for) without needing to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself. By definition that’s an inevitable consequence of being all powerful, right?
If you ask why a malevolent God would do such a thing…I guess I would have to respond with why WOULDN’T a malevolent God delight in requiring humanity to commit human sacrifice for him in order for him to forgive us for being born “sinful,” something we have no control over and which in fact he chose to occur when he decided which universe he would create (the one with so much suffering and bloodshed). Does that sound like the behavior of a benevolent God?
“Apparently, it’s a big deal to reject Jesus Christ, at least God thinks so if you believe the veracity of the scriptures.”
Yes indeed, that’s what the Bible indicates. Yet virtually everybody who is not Christian doesn’t “reject” Jesus…they simply don’t believe he exists. Did you ever reject Odin or Shiva? No, you were taught they don’t exist, right? You no more reject them than you do, say, Darth Vader or Superman. Well, that’s EXACTLY what non-Christians think in regards to Christianity. They don’t “reject” Jesus because they never believed he existed in the first place. Yet…their place is in the Lake of Fire. Does that seem the behavior of a benevolent deity?
“Are you going to gamble you eternity because you have issues with God allowing sin and evil to continue in our world and then try to blame Him for it ? What if your missing the point ?”
If I’m missing the point, then surely God–being all knowing–is aware of this. If he’s benevolent, he could easily make himself known to me and explain himself. Being all powerful, that would be trivial for him, wouldn’t it? And since the Bible is clear that he wants everyone to be saved, why wouldn’t he do such a thing? After all, if I find out my neighbor disapproves of my actions, and it turns out he is mistaken about his perceptions of me, I make it a point to confront my neighbor and clear up the misunderstanding. Would it be unreasonable for God to do any less for us?
“What if you are wrong ?”
Well, what if we’re all wrong and the Hindu gods are the only true gods? Or Allah? Or the FSM? Or Cthulhu? Or any of the other gods from the roughly 4200 distinct religions that exist in the world? Does it make sense that a benevolent God would not make himself known to absolutely everyone on Earth in no uncertain terms so that everyone can make an informed decision? The claim that there is a “knowing deep in your heart” is simply not true, evidenced by the simple fact that geography is BY FAR the greatest determinant of which religion a person believes in. Where you grew up is the single greatest factor in what you end up believing. If everyone knew “deep in their heart,” religious belief would not be sorted by geography but by…introspectiveness? Spirituality? Instinctiveness?
“Even many Christians don’t fully understand the magnitude of the grace of God.”
By now it should be pretty clear who could easily fix that problem, no?
“I realize the God of the bible offends your sense of justice, but I urge you to step back and consider there are good and just reasons why people have been judged and are going to be judged by the God of the universe. Also, based on the tremendous upside of eternal life, I can live without knowing or understanding all the details of why God chose to exterminate the Canaanites etc….”
Are you actually advocating that I should sell out my sense of morality because maybe somehow God has a good reason for his behavior? I should accept the the bribe of a promised paradise afterlife and just look the other way? In short, don’t think…just ignore all these perceived problems and submit willingly to what could be something deeply malevolent? How is that any different from those who ignored the evidence and enabled Hitler to rise to power?
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September 28, 2017 at 7:08 pm
Religion is on ly true to itself. Otherwise it is only as true as the person the religion derives from because all religions derive from a person.
Nobody was around when the so called metaphorical Adam and Eve were first made so the most obvious truth is that the entire story is an imaginative fiction from the ind of who? Moses? Regardless maybe it was Moses’s Great grandfather or grandmother passing along folklore, wive’s tales and word of mouth fantasies……..It must have all been imagination and nothing more and to top it off the story had to involve the Santa Claus type fantasia Gods not without similar fictitious accounts of mythological caricature concepts.
It’s all an imaginative story and nothing else……No fantasy Gods….No Zeus, No Mars, just a human architectural scaffold to hang hats on and for topics of conversations for generations to come…And it has worked to that end ever since.
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September 28, 2017 at 7:33 pm
People do not know the grace of the caricature concepts they invent….Surely that could be true——-unlimited powers they have……..wow that’s a dandy isn’t it; talking about a concept that does not exist except in the imaginative minds of men and talk about the non existent as if the entity actually existed………….OMG, if there was one.
Now, trying and to fit an entity into a man-made-mold and we find a person to whom we can compare with the invented one and claim the entity sent or came himself to reveal his true likeness.
Actually I am building a bridge across the Atlantic that not only crosses the depths but constructs a series of panels across both Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, in other words, the Global ocean that would open and close so that weather control is possible merely by controlling the evaporation and condensation of the oceans; The Water Cycle.
AKA, Weather Control.
Stocks will soar, millions to be made——- free package with CD for your share minimum investment of $1,000.00 for 1,000 shares. It’s a deal……Rain in the desert, slim to no more flood filled monsoons. Hurricanes , tornado only a past a dream fantasy from the past…..
Contact http://www.raindropsforeveronourheads.com/share offering
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September 28, 2017 at 7:48 pm
From the Bible’s perspective: Why we sin; and how God deals with it.
Of primary importance: Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Why we sin (realizing that Adam was humanity’s proxy, God knows each one of us would make the identical choice as Adam).:
7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(Romans 7:1-25)
How God deals with it.:
18:1 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
‘The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period– if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD.
“Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.
“Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.” (Ezekiel 18:1-32)
8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh– for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:1-39)
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September 28, 2017 at 7:53 pm
Neither Adam nor Eve sinned; they merely reflected what they were designed to do, procreate. Cain was the sinner in that prototype family.
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September 28, 2017 at 11:04 pm
I don’t know what you mean, I shall be happy If you are into what I presume. You see on September 27, in my thread in response to derekmathius I had invited readers to have an unbiased neutral impartial look at http://www.hinduismexposed.org Honestly this was the first website I found on religion comparisons (this is Android ,I being on the field so cannot browse much) .Only much later I revisited that website and , my TAKE on the information therein (and the various links – a few that I had visited ) is that the fundamental /basic contradictions in relation is now being taken advantage of and encashed as capital by opportunists and deceivers with nefarious secret aim of self aggrandizement and promoting clan and kinship interests over the world .The link on that website on the sentence “this event is scheduled to happen SOON” (link on this one word) takes one to the website http://www.christmaitreya.org The message of the witchcraft concept propounded here given in special red highlight “without sharing of the world’s resources there can be no justice : without justice there cannot be peace : without peace the world cannot survive “………….(SUGARCOATING DETAILS), is in all probability the skilfully crafted working mechanism of deceit . Clearly my personal conviction is that I don’t think the western countries have Resources or wealth. You see people here have achieved technological and material advancement through hard work and they did not have wealth or resources to do that. If a bridge or building here looks state of the art and expensive it is because people have invented a better way of doing things – this is not a show of wealth. Bill Gates might have wealth of billions but this was earned by systematic hard work, it is the hard work Component of wealth which is required by backward countries not the Cash wealth ,which in any case shall be frittered away ,if given as was seen in so many examples where the rich gets richer and the poor gets worse , at the most – technologies and patents which have expired and such professional knowledge which is still relevant but not antique could be remitted by western society for advancement of poorer countries. Also explosive population growth and corruption and incompetence should be taken to task .This to my conviction should be “sharing resources” and not humanitarian refugee resettlement….. ect ect
On Sep 29, 2017 08:03, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> SonofMan commented: “People do not know the grace of the caricature > concepts they invent….Surely that could be true——-unlimited powers > they have……..wow that’s a dandy isn’t it; talking about a concept that > does not exist except in the imaginative minds of men and t” >
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September 29, 2017 at 6:29 am
Derek, God’s foreknowledge of events does not make Him culpable for those events. Just because Man sinned doesn’t mean God wanted Man to sin, your presumption is wrong and I don’t think you’ve considered the nature of free will that we’ve been given as temporal beings.
I’m sorry that your sense of morality is offended, if God is God, then He has the right to do whatever He wants. If you want to judge Him, that’s your prerogative and I’m not offended.
The whole world has heard about Jesus, His life is the most unique of any person that ever lived. Calendars were marked based on His life (BC, AD). To suggest He didn’t exist is a stretch and there are extra-biblical resources that indicate He did exist. Keep in mind that writings from this far back in history are rare and as I mentioned before, the abundance of writings we have in tact from that time which found it’s way in the bible is truly amazing. If you search this out you will find some sources outside the bible such as from the Jewish historian Josephus that indicate there was a Jesus of Nazareth in human history.
The question is, if you come to accept Jesus existed, now you have the Son of the malevolent God to deal with. What do you do with Him ? If I can follow your logic trail, you will probably criticize Jesus for turning over tables in the temple, getting angry with the Pharisees, calling a woman a dog, telling people to hate their mother and father, and finally being narrow minded or even insane by claiming that He Himself is the only way to God. In the end you will end up with a malevolent Jesus, just like His Father. Am I right ?
Naz
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September 29, 2017 at 6:49 am
Oops! Spelling mistake again (which renders my sentence meaningless) PLEASE READ THE FUNDEMENTAL /BASIC CONTRADICTIONS IN RELEGION. Regards
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September 29, 2017 at 4:33 pm
“Derek, God’s foreknowledge of events does not make Him culpable for those events.”
With all due respect, I’m beginning to think you are deliberately evading my point. I NEVER SAID God’s foreknowledge of events makes him culpable for those events. I said what makes him culpable is that he had the choice of creating a universe where Lucifer never rebelled, where A&E never disobeyed, where humanity didn’t become wicked and need drowning, and where the vast majority of humans would not end up in hell…and yet he did NOT choose one of those universes to create. He chose THIS ONE, the one where he KNEW everything would go wrong. THAT’S where his culpability lies, because he DELIBERATELY and UNNECESSARILY chose to create a universe filled with sin and suffering. As far as this argument goes, God is NOT guilty of the actions we take, but IS guilty of choosing to create one of the universes where almost everyone takes the “wrong” actions.
By way of analogy, it’s like someone undergoing in vitro fertilization and having the option of being implanted with a perfectly healthy embryo, but instead opting to go with an embryo filled with a whole host of terrible genetic diseases–deliberately, knowing the child will suffer tremendously throughout its life.
Furthermore, you continue to ignore the scripture that flatly states that God plans absolutely everything:
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end. [Not just some things…”EVERYTHING.”]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS.
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 20:24 A person’s steps are DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
So not only does God’s choice of which universe to create give substantial reason to suspect he is malevolent, but the above passages indicate that even the choices we make are determined by God, which means that all evil and suffering are deliberately caused by him.
THESE are the points I’m making and THESE are the ones I would ask that you either successfully refute or acknowledge as valid points.
“The whole world has heard about Jesus, His life is the most unique of any person that ever lived.”
Well, no, that’s not true. I have lived all over the world, including some of the poorest regions. I’ve met Indians who never heard of Jesus. More interestingly, I’ve met people from many nations who have VERY different notions of who Jesus is and what he means. Christianity is the most fractured religion in the world, with many sects espousing doctrine that is in complete contradiction to other sects (not just the Catholic-Protestant divide). And, as I pointed out before, Jesus’ life is NOT unique. In fact, he shares many of the same characteristics and life stories of Mithradates, Krishna, Moses, Romulus, King Arthur, Perseus, Watu Gunung (of Java), Heracles, Mohammad, Beowulf, Buddha, Czar Nicholas II, Zeus, Nyikang (a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile), Samson, Sunjata (the Lion-King of Ancient Mali), Achilles, Odysseus, and even Harry Potter (https://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/). To claim Jesus is unique is to ignore the mythology that existed long before Jesus in many other cultures.
“To suggest He didn’t exist is a stretch and there are extra-biblical resources that indicate He did exist. Keep in mind that writings from this far back in history are rare and as I mentioned before, the abundance of writings we have in tact from that time which found it’s way in the bible is truly amazing.”
No, that is entirely wrong. Again, I think you did not read what I posted before about the actual historical evidence for Jesus. To repeat: It’s not like these events occurred in some backwater region. Judea was a highly important, strategic province for Rome, and during Jesus’ time the region was one of the most WELL DOCUMENTED in ancient history. Many contemporary writers recorded great volumes of information about the area–they even described several failed Jewish messiahs. Yet despite Jesus supposedly performing so many dramatic events, sermons and miracles that were witnessed by thousands of people and garnered the attention of numerous high-ranking officials…there is no evidence of ANYONE during that time writing anything about Jesus or the supernatural events that supposedly coincided with his birth and death. None. Is there any way such complete silence is plausible if those events actually occurred?
“If you search this out you will find some sources outside the bible such as from the Jewish historian Josephus that indicate there was a Jesus of Nazareth in human history.”
I have indeed done quite a bit of research on the historicity of Jesus and am familiar with the evidence, so I know you’re mistaken here. The only INDEPENDENT evidence within a hundred years of when Jesus was supposed to have lived is a couple of short passages from historians Tacitus and Josephus. But they were both born years AFTER Jesus supposedly died and they gave no sources for their information. Furthermore, Tacitus only wrote a brief, offhand comment and made NO claims as to the historicity of Jesus. And although most scholars consider Josephus’s work to be the better evidence, they also acknowledge that his writing was altered by Christian scribes to fit the Christian narrative. At best these two scholars were reporting what they had been told by early Christian followers…and hearsay many decades old is hardly sufficient evidence that Jesus actually existed. Having said that, I’m not claiming there wasn’t a Jewish rabbi named Jesus who was killed by the Roman government, I’m saying the evidence is remarkably thin even for that much. As for the independent evidence for the supernatural claims concerning Jesus…well, those are simply nonexistent.
Feel free to look up any of the claims I’ve made here, but nothing I’ve said is particularly controversial among biblical scholars.
“If I can follow your logic trail, you will probably criticize Jesus for turning over tables in the temple, getting angry with the Pharisees, calling a woman a dog, telling people to hate their mother and father, and finally being narrow minded or even insane by claiming that He Himself is the only way to God.”
Ah, so even you recognize that Jesus did some questionable things. But it’s not just you and me who recognizes that, Jesus HIMSELF admitted it:
• Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.”
Would you have me ignore that passage too?
I have striven to be as accurate and diligent as possible in my claims, researching where possible and using what the Bible says to support them. I’ve neither lied nor attempted to mislead, and I’ve carefully walked through the rationale for my claims. Your counters so far have mostly been to either use straw man arguments to evade my questions, or to present demonstrably false claims. I don’t know why you are doing this, unless it’s because you aren’t willing to question the fundamentals of your beliefs. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I thought you would be more introspective than that. For me, it’s truth that matters, not convenience, not dogma, not conviction.
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September 29, 2017 at 7:14 pm
Nava Chetia:
In your link regarding the comparisons of three religions plus the author’s own Theosophy; I have grazed briefly on both links.
The author of link one, hinduismexposed, makes a common fundamental mistake regarding what Jesus said about the Son of Man “in his day” that forms the premise and sets the scene for a flawed conclusion.. Jesus was not speaking about HIS return; that is a church dogma biting on a supernatural second coming bone that is not going to happen in the way Jesus messaged his followers. Indeed, it was Jesus himself, speaking of the Kingdom where God presumably resides; at first, says that the Kingdom is “within you” and secondly, that the Kingdom and the Coming does not come by observation. So using that logic as a base for what Jesus was talking about, one cannot help but recognize the logic of his second comment: ”
“……having been asked by the Pharisees, When is the kingdom of God coming? he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;……” and “….they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them…..”
In other passages, in other Gospels, Jesus says: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And when the author of the linked page says the Christ is coming soon and then goes to a link about the Coming SOON that links to christmaitreya………..BELIEVE IT NOT.
Now why did Jesus “the son of man in his day”? Because he was not talking about himself personally and he was not even talking about a single person per se. Why? Because Christ is not a person, Christ is an attitude. Jesus was a person; Christ was his attitude. Now of course a single person can have a Christlike attitude but a Christlike attitude is not unique to any single person; although admittedly, Jesus was the first to describe the distinction during his revolutionary campaign.
But whole groups of people and whole nations of people can have the attitude of Christ and when that exponential critical mass occurs; well, that is the message of what the Parable of the Leaven is all about. A parable about leaven that permeates the dough so that after a time the whole dough is leaven through and through and that is what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and that is coming indeed.
And Jesus emphasized the distinction between the physical body of a single person not being the Son of Man by the analogy of the carcass and the eagles gathering. That is the metaphorical carcass where the other carcass types will gather to feast on and many by deceit will be snared, even the elect if that were possible. The eagles in this case? And the carcass of a single person?
Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
So Jesus was not referring to the Son of Man (Christ) as a single person because the son of man(Christ) is not a person it is an attitude.
The link therefore that claims the Christ has returned is so out of tune with the reality of Jesus’s message it renders the association meaningless. It may be signaling the gathering of the eagles but I am no carcass for that bombastic baloney and I hope you are not taken away by that “eagle” link.
Wait for the lightening that flashes from the East and lights up unto the West and then will you see the Coming of the Son of Man in your mind’s eye. And you will KNOW the truth of the Coming and if you cannot see that, you are not there yet.
Take care and stay alert.
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September 29, 2017 at 8:30 pm
Derekmathias, Rest assured we are in sync, in many issues. Thank you.
On Sep 30, 2017 07:44, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> SonofMan commented: “Nava Chetia: In your link regarding the comparisons > of three religions plus the author’s own Theosophy; I have grazed briefly > on both links. The author of link one, hinduismexposed, makes a common > fundamental mistake regarding what Jesus said about” >
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September 29, 2017 at 8:45 pm
Apologies to you Sonofman, by mistake I failed to write your name correctly. I agree with you, this is the age of reason and introspection about everything, we should always carefully educate ourselves then answer our inner voice and pay no attention to the cacophony of the marketplace – because they too could have overlooked , and worst some could be the proverbial wolf in the sheeps clothing as the link exemplifies. Thank you
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October 2, 2017 at 9:49 pm
Derek, I’m not trying to evade your point. Sorry for the confusion.
Your claim that God chose to create a world with sin and suffering does not take into account that God also wanted to create a genuine world where people are unique as individuals and not robotic as you are implying. Each of us are unique, from our fingerprints to our personalities. Would you sacrifice that for a robotic selfless existence where you have no choice ?
Another point on free will, in a sense nobody has a truly independent free will. I say this not to say God is controlling everyone’s choices, rather we are all influenced by something. Nobody is truly independent and influence shapes who we are and how we think. How we respond to those influences shapes who we are and what we believe.
As for these scriptures references you suggest I am eluding, these can be explained but I don’t have time now. Sorry.
As for the historical Jesus, I am not going to argue or doubt the time you invested in searching this out. I commend you for that effort. But why cast doubt on the writings about Jesus from the scriptures ? They are still historical writings and there are plenty of them. As for the evidence for Jesus and His life that you expect to find outside the bible, why does that surprise you ? They didn’t have social media or twitter back then 🙂 so that every miracle could immediately be broadcast to the masses. I don’t think your reasoning on this fits the time period, we are fortunate to have anything in tact from antiquity so this is a strawman argument based on your own conjecture of what you think should be in the historical record. While I can accept you are unsatisfied with the lack of extra-biblical evidence, I cannot see how the biblical evidence is somehow not enough for you to see that a Jesus of Nazareth did actually exist. That somehow it was all a concocted scheme of some sort. Most of your thoughts are fairly rational to this point, so I don’t know why you would resort to a conspiracy theory or mythology point of view when it comes to the scriptures. The canon itself is a good example of some thoughtful people trying to make sure falsehoods and myths did not get included in the bible. Several questionable and extraneous writings were purposely excluded from the canon due to their lack of authenticity. I’m sure an intelligent person as yourself can tell the difference between pure mythology and something that has historical authenticity.
Naz
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October 3, 2017 at 6:27 am
Apologetics Press – The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity
by Garry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div.
| http://ap.lanexdev.com/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=357 |
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October 3, 2017 at 8:06 am
Sorry Frank
Not in to chasing websites……..
As previously noted a million, billion, nanozillion times, don’t exaggerate!
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October 3, 2017 at 8:26 am
Naz:
Fyi, mythology has historical authenticity right up to and including today; and, for you and millions of other believers includes historical authenticity, yesterday & tomorrow so that seeing you cannot see and hearing you cannot hear lest you come to me and be cleared of the fog-haze veil that prevents reasoned intrusion between the reptilian brain and the thinking, higher functioning brain.
Sorry Dino Jesus demands that it be messaged to all nations as per: “Jesus,(and LeoTheGreater) undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: “God authorized and commanded me to commission you: Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, (without supernaturalisticexpialidocious mindsets)** marking them by baptism (for that baptismal change) in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(All-in-one, the At-One-Ment Kingdom within you)** Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you.”
** Author’s parentheses
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October 3, 2017 at 6:43 pm
Hi Frank
I understand your loyalty to the God you believe in.
Irrespective of the veracity or otherwise of the Biblical scriptures, if we have to accept it all then the glaring contradictions remain with us. If God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, why did the Hebrews expand them to 613 laws? Why was Capital Punishment meted out to those who broke several of the laws as detailed in Leviticus 20, to name just one source. Why were the Hebrews required to kill when this was against the sixth commandment?
This is the worst kind of justice as there was no chance for the transgressors to reform and be an example to the rest of their tribe or community. My opinion is that maybe Moses made these additional laws and chose which ones required Capital Punishment to bring the Hebrews into line according to his vision of what God needed from His people, hence the excuse, “…the blood guilt is on them.”
Modern times do not keep us away from blood guilt. Hundreds of thousands of people have died needlessly when the UK and the USA have used lethal forces in Middle East countries, decimating the infrastructure of several countries. The sanctioned killing continues despite the testimony of Christ.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 5, 2017 at 5:24 pm
“Your claim that God chose to create a world with sin and suffering does not take into account that God also wanted to create a genuine world where people are unique as individuals and not robotic as you are implying. Each of us are unique, from our fingerprints to our personalities.”
I appreciate that you are not trying to evade my point…but I don’t understand how you can’t be grasping my point. So let me break it down to a simple four steps and you can tell me where you’re losing me:
1: EVEN IF God chose to create a world where free will exists, he STILL had to have in his mind an infinite variety of universes where free will exists (at very least one potential universe for every conceivable decision anyone could ever make). Do you agree with that much? I would think so since it IS the logical consequence of the claim that God is all knowing.
2: Now given the above, God could have chosen to create ANY of those infinite free will universes, correct? That IS the logical consequence of the claim that God is all powerful. That means he COULD have chosen one of the free will universes where everybody just so happens to make the “right” decisions, right? (Because if not, then the option to make those choices doesn’t actually exist.)
3. Finally, since God deliberately chose to create one of the free will universes where the vast majority of humanity (and Lucifer) would end up making the “wrong” decisions, that makes HIM responsible for sin. HE is at fault for the world being sinful because this particular universe was HIS CHOICE. EVEN IF everyone in this universe is making free will choices, God is STILL at fault because he COULD have chosen to create one of the free will universes where everyone happened to make the right decisions. But he didn’t.
4. Thus, the logical conclusion is that God WANTED to create this exact universe. He WANTED Lucifer to rebel. He WANTED Adam and Eve to disobey. He WANTED to drown the world. And he WANTED to send the vast majority of humanity to hell. Because if he DIDN’T want all this to happen, he would have chosen to create one of the other universes in his mind.
I don’t know how I can make this argument more clearly. As you can see, my argument is in no way incompatible with your claim that God wanted to create “a genuine world where people are unique as individuals.”
Although I must add that a universe WITHOUT free will (which I still maintain the Bible supports) could JUST as easily be “a genuine world where people are unique as individuals.” After all, characters in novels have all their decisions made for them (by the author), yet they can vary uniquely even more than people in real life.
“Would you sacrifice that for a robotic selfless existence where you have no choice ?”
Given the choice between a world where everyone is capable of committing atrocities and one where everyone is a “selfless robot” living under the illusion of having free will, of course I would take the latter! Who wouldn’t? That should be the choice of any person who cares about the well being of people over the freedom to cause immense suffering. As long as the robots have no awareness of being controlled, and they perceive they are freely making choices, what difference does it make? You couldn’t possibly tell the difference, as the fact that people can reasonably argue whether or not free will exists attests.
More importantly, not only does the Bible indicate that free will is only an illusion, so does neuroscience, where we can identify a person’s decision long before they even PERCEIVE they are making a free will decision. Anyone can repeat that experiment and get the same results.
But EVEN IF free will exists…the argument I walked you through above still holds.
“we are all influenced by something. Nobody is truly independent and influence shapes who we are and how we think.”
Exactly. We evidently don’t need TOTAL free will (even under your scenario where you say we DO have free will), and it’s clear that most people are utterly repulsed at even the thought of committing an atrocity…why do we have the ability to commit murder, rape, torture, slavery, etc.? God COULD have created us with NO capacity at all to commit such acts WITHOUT compromising the whole reason we supposedly have free will in the first place (to choose to follow God). Yet he did not. In fact, the Bible says God created us INCAPABLE of being awful:
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Again, it’s clear this is what God WANTED to happen…because otherwise he could have easily avoided it without compromising the part of free will you claim we need.
“But why cast doubt on the writings about Jesus from the scriptures ? They are still historical writings and there are plenty of them.”
Because the Gospels are not independent sources, and that is critical. We believe Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great existed because they were written about extensively during their lives, both by their allies AND by their enemies. They also appeared in many official documents and even on coins, and their actions had immediate and dramatic consequences for their societies while they lived. None of that is true for Jesus. Despite events that would have been guaranteed to have been recorded by numerous historians during that time (such as the appearance of the Star of Bethlehem, a three-hour darkness that covered the land, massive earthquakes, and many dead Jewish saints resurrecting and wandering around Jerusalem), there is not a SINGLE independent record of such events. Don’t forget, Judea during that time period was one of the MOST documented in all of ancient history, with countless details preserved, including the existence of several failed Jewish messiahs. That NO historian wrote about any of it stretches credulity to the breaking point and beyond.
“I cannot see how the biblical evidence is somehow not enough for you to see that a Jesus of Nazareth did actually exist.”
Put it this way, does the fact that books showing Santa Claus living at the North Pole count as evidence that he exists? I’m not being facetious here. There are hundreds of millions of people who sincerely believe or have believed that Santa exists. What significant difference is there between the existence of Jesus and the existence of Santa? Can you name even one significant, demonstrable difference? I know this sounds ridiculous from the perspective of a believer…but it’s an honest question.
“Most of your thoughts are fairly rational to this point, so I don’t know why you would resort to a conspiracy theory or mythology point of view when it comes to the scriptures.”
A conspiracy theorist either invents or adopts claims that are insufficiently supported by the evidence. I’m doing neither. In fact, I’m doing the reverse: I’m noting the lack of evidence where there absolutely should be quite a bit. And none of the evidence I cite is particularly controversial among biblical scholars. Virtually all of them agree that there is no direct, independent evidence that Jesus even existed. They agree that the only original accounts of his life can be found in the four Gospels and Pauline Epistles. They agree that the Gospels were written by completely anonymous sources several DECADES after Jesus supposedly lived, and the Epistles make no mention of any earthly, human Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12, 1 Corinthians 15:1-8). They agree that later Gospel writers also copied material directly from earlier Gospels. And they agree that the oldest surviving copies of the Gospels are translations of translations written hundreds of years later, and the wording in every copy contains alterations. Finally, scholars agree that none of the books claim to be eyewitness accounts to begin with. None of that is controversial.
I’m not claiming someone named Jesus (or the equivalent) never existed, only that the evidence for his existence is remarkably weak, and that the independent evidence for anything supernatural associated with him is completely nonexistent.
“Several questionable and extraneous writings were purposely excluded from the canon due to their lack of authenticity. I’m sure an intelligent person as yourself can tell the difference between pure mythology and something that has historical authenticity.”
That’s the thing…the way we differentiate between mythology and history is through INDEPENDENT evidence. We don’t believe in the old Roman gods because there’s no independent evidence for their existence. I’m sure you believe Hinduism is just as much mythological as the Roman pantheon, but the only difference between those two religions is that almost no one believes in the old gods anymore, whereas there are over a billion Hindus today. Yet the independent evidence supporting Hinduism is no better than the evidence supporting the Roman religion or Christianity. Without independent evidence, there is NO WAY to determine the difference between mythology and history. And since the ONLY independent evidence validating Christianity within a hundred years of when Jesus was supposed to have lived are brief, second-hand references by Josephus and Tacitus, historians who weren’t even born until long AFTER Jesus died. EVERYTHING else was written by Christians eager to promote Christianity…which is why independent evidence is so critical to establishing authenticity.
Again, nothing I’m saying is controversial among biblical historians. If you don’t believe me, look up these references to see for yourself.
To me, the biggest problems for Christianity are:
1. The existence of evil and the fall of mankind in conjunction with claims that God is all powerful and all knowing yet also benevolent
2. The lack of any independent evidence for the existence of Jesus AS DESCRIBED in the Bible
3. God relying on an easily misinterpreted book as his manual for salvation, and allowing it to be lost to history with only translations of translations hundreds of years removed remaining.
It seems to me these are questions every Christian should also be asking about, since they go to the heart of Christianity and imply serious consequences if not thoroughly addressed.
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October 5, 2017 at 8:36 pm
Hi Derek
I liked the way you presented your arguments, particularly the need for independent sources to verify the claims of the Bible.
You have mentioned frequently the possibility of an infinite number of universes. I find it weird since when the word was invented surely we meant that the universe is everything that exists and we would have to wonder if the infinite number of probably finite universes were themselves sub-sets of an infinite universe? They could all be separate too, I wouldn’t deny that.
We have tended to imagine that God must have attributes that make the Being worthy of the title: Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence (yet possibly metaphysically separate in essence) Omnibenevolence, Infinite, the Creator of the universe, all these and yet ineffable!
What if God did not have all these attributes? Would God be unworthy of the title? What if God chose to be subject to the Laws of the universe He created? Could we deny Him that choice?
This is what Epicurus (341 – 270 BC) had to say about God:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence came evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
If people were pressed to give God’s main attribute they might say that He is the Creator of the universe and everything in it including virtual particles:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/
If God does not have all the attributes that most of us deem necessary for Him to be worthy of the title, as Epicurus alluded to, then this may explain the inconsistencies, but some would still argue that we should call Him God.
Another possibility that explains the existence of evil is that God may be both Benevolent and Malevolent:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
I’m inviting you to open the discussion up to other possibilities, as your argument with Naz is based on assumptions about God’s attributes that He may not have or He may have chosen to be subject to the Laws of the universe that He is believed to have created.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 6, 2017 at 8:19 am
The link describes that certain physical observable quantities could have two states of existence, now concept extrapolated to Divine existing in two states benevolent and malevolent (as for example).But interaction of such Divine not compatible with humans because humans are self regulated to admire the benevolent side only, also humans themselves are not benevolent and malevolent generally as a rule (existing in two reversible states) , because malevolence among humans shall invite reaction and retaliation from others and decimation because humans are selectively not omnipotent. Here there shall not be available “two to tango”
On Oct 6, 2017 09:06, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> dinoconstant commented: “Hi Derek I liked the way you presented your > arguments, particularly the need for independent sources to verify the > claims of the Bible. You have mentioned frequently the possibility of an > infinite number of universes. I find it weird since when th” >
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October 6, 2017 at 12:49 pm
Re: post 154. –
Don’t Be Under The Law
Oct 06, 2017 119 Ministries
“Have you ever heard that we should be “Under the Law?” What does that mean?”
| http://www.119ministries.com/teachings/video-teachings/detail/dont-be-under-the-law/ |
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October 6, 2017 at 9:05 pm
THE CHRISTIAN follows that punishment comes in hell, the same Christian mitigates Earthly misfortunes that upsets and shatters his life as Divine discipline (Hebrews 12:5-6). These are trying times for the world, as it is for America (what with hurricane Irma, Mandalay Bay ect).When people gets killed then too is it discipline, or while disciplining was there a terrible miss and a divine covenant got broken by the one of whom it was created. Or is the powers of some other Divine of whose religion is still not knowing is working , then where and what is that religion??? Hurry we need that
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October 7, 2017 at 11:31 pm
What a world to find myself in. “PROFESSOR PROSTITUTE” !!!!!, this was the tragic consequence of a struggling female middle aged academic in America who is AN ADJUNCT FACULITY in a partly publicly funded institution (where the fund allocation was shaved) , and she had to fall to this level in order to save her precarious home mortgage , after supplementing with extra tutions, all of which does not tally to keep her from being swept away, a news on the Guardian reported. (I am terrified if the internet responders to her service one day turn out to be a student – she said). The news info peice stated that adjunct facility in colleges and universities are “precarious employment” and many live homeless in their cars to grind on. According to Christian beliefs are people of this kind who are “precariously employed ” (no matter that that are not in a majority) suffering from the process of divine discipline, in case of such disciplining if finding no recourse the subject falls into lower depths, then is that sin. Does sin premedated externally accrue to the credit of such sinner, then would that sinner bear the sin of other forces totally external to themselves, but which they have to carry because they are powerless .We can expect that a scholarly person could have no particularly sinfull tendencies, yet what is the excuse for such “disciplining “.Pastors and clergy shall try to avoid tough questions and inquiries – but then do they involuntarily commit a sin for craftily making their escape
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October 8, 2017 at 7:22 am
Nava:
Listen to this carefully.
Sin like beauty, pornography, virtue and indeed truth itself is in the eye of the beholder; in the case of self inflicted affliction or otherwise,
Happy (blessed) is s/he who does not condemn one’s self for what s/he does, for what s/he allows
Romans 14:22 KJV: Hast thou faith … Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. … Blessed [is] he who does not judge himself in what he allows.
Worry not what sin others believe you commit for they bear the sign of gossip who would cast the first stone to prove their own hypocrisy.
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October 8, 2017 at 5:28 pm
“You have mentioned frequently the possibility of an infinite number of universes. I find it weird since when the word was invented surely we meant that the universe is everything that exists and we would have to wonder if the infinite number of probably finite universes were themselves sub-sets of an infinite universe?”
Well, the “multiverse” or “metaverse” would likely be something like an eternal fluctuating quantum void constantly creating universes. It’s predicted in string theory, which is hard to test. Quantum mechanics also predicts the existence of an infinite number of parallel universes, and it’s one of the most well-supported theories in science. Fundamental particles and be observed constantly and without cause appearing and disappearing out of the quantum vacuum (even in totally empty space), which is precedent for universes doing essentially the same thing on a larger scale.
There could be an infinite number or “just” a massive number of universes. No way to find out, unfortunately. We don’t know if our universe is finite or infinite in size. It could certainly be the latter, which would mean there would be an infinite number of parallel universes WITHIN our universe. Heady stuff.
“What if God did not have all these attributes? Would God be unworthy of the title? What if God chose to be subject to the Laws of the universe He created? Could we deny Him that choice?”
I think the biggest problem for Christianity is the claim that God is all powerful and all knowing, because that leads to unavoidable consequences that conflict with Christian doctrine. But considering that gods have traditionally had great power but still limits to that power (look at the ancient Greek gods, for instance), that limitation shouldn’t be a problem for religions. The omnipotent, omniscient Christian God is the natural progression of “my god is greater than your god” one-upmanship taken to its logical extreme.
It’s conceivable our universe is a virtual world created by a technology at least a couple decades ahead of our own. If so, then our creator would need be no more omniscient or omnipotent than your average computer game designer. He might have complete control over our universe, while still being subject to the physics of his or her own universe.
“I’m inviting you to open the discussion up to other possibilities, as your argument with Naz is based on assumptions about God’s attributes that He may not have or He may have chosen to be subject to the Laws of the universe that He is believed to have created.”
Well, my interest is mainly in the consequences of the all powerful, all knowing monotheistic God of Christianity and Islam, primarily because of the logical consequences. Once one is willing to abandon those characteristics, suddenly that opens up an infinite variety of options that can easily eliminate the consequences. It becomes easy to explain anything away, thus explaining everything and explaining nothing.
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October 8, 2017 at 6:49 pm
Hi Derek
Thank you for your response, especially your explanations about the models of the universe, multiverse and metaverse.
The attributes of the monotheistic God of Christianity and Islam are incompatible with each other. Many believers refer to God as ineffable.
It appears that you’ve resigned yourself to explaining your truth to people who are stuck in their set of beliefs and as you know Brand Loyalty will prevent them from changing their views however you present your case.
Everyone should own a Volvo, it’s the most reliable brand of car and I’ve never had any serious problems with them all my life. If you learn how to look after them, they will look after you and they’ll never let you down.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 8, 2017 at 9:18 pm
Dear readers,
An Eastern Orthodox Christian Church view of God and the universe:
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 8, 2017 at 9:25 pm
You feel the explanation to the example mentioned earlier could be found in Romans 14:22.Agreed.Indisputable, if she says a prayer before going out in her helplessness (Isiah 43:2), but practically it is not possible, because this is the corporate age of 2017, and she mentioned (as the Guardian reported) that she had to meet her committed liabilities for which she found that job as a higher paying time efficient alternative in her busy multi tasking (moonlighting) work day schedule, so she is thinly set apart from her clients in incurring the wrath of (Romans 14:23) god.
But to examine in the light of the blog theme about predetermination, would say that 95% of the gospel is about predetermination with a choice for man .But the substantial part (meaning emphasising the very purpose of the text) constituting 5% of the gospel is about absolute predetermination without choice (Deuteronomy 8:2, Jeremiah 12:10, 17:10. pslams11:14, Corinthians 3:13, Peter 4:17ect ect. This almost closes the topic.
On Oct 8, 2017 19:52, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> Jesuspeake commented: “Nava: Listen to this carefully. Sin like beauty, > pornography, virtue and indeed truth itself is in the eye of the beholder; > in the case of self inflicted affliction or otherwise, Happy (blessed) is > s/he who does not condemn one’s self for what s/” >
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October 8, 2017 at 11:41 pm
Why only the eastern orthodox agenda, what about Roman Catholicism and the hundreds of denominations ….., this is a discussion about God and inconsistency which creates divisions in the church. Running out of steam I call it a day
On Oct 9, 2017 09:48, “Theo-sophical Ruminations” wrote:
> dinoconstant commented: “Dear readers, An Eastern Orthodox Christian > Church view of God and the universe: https://www.youtube.com/watch? > v=_xki03G_TO4 Peace and love to all, Dinos” >
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October 9, 2017 at 10:49 am
Dino:
No idle boast said Jesus to Pontius when Pontius asked,
“Are you a King then”?
Jesus answered “Thou sayest it”. In other words it is you who say it. That was no affirmation; Jesus did not agree that he was a King, Jesus was merely attributing the King idea to the Jews of the Sanhedrin because Jesus knew they did, not out of truth of the crime of sedition but because it was the only crime that might apply to the Roman Authority and for which the Romans reserved purely for non-Roman citizens as punishment, crucifixion. Only three: escape from slavery, piracy and sedition against the Roman Empire.
Earlier in the chapter it is noted that when Jesus was asked the question beforehand,
John 18
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
You see…”Is this question from you or because you heard others say it?”, is clearly no affirmation of the King thing; it was what the Sanhedrin cooked up and played to their base to work the crowd into a feeding frenzy for death in much the same way as they worked up their base against Stephen for his death by stoning.
Pilate knew it was because of envy that the Jews delivered Jesus up to him because they could not kill him themselves……
During the pregnant pause that followed one can easily imagine Pilate talking plainly:
“Man”, he must have said to Jesus, “what in the world have you done to them? They have a list of accusations; son of god blasphemy, usurping their authority, stealing away their congregation. We Romans have spent years, centuries even, wasting our time in the supernatural time warp over the gods until we finally realized the nonsense of the Gods we created, then revered and followed. Common sense woke us up to reality that allowed us to move forward, common sense instead of nonsense. Your nation and your people are still in that supernatural time warp; still insisting on the nonsense and look at the mess your world is in; imagine people from another planet coming to earth wondering what the people were like because they heard the people of earth had a God and so they would explore. And when they came back what do you think they’d say about the God of the people? They would come back and say Yes we now know what God is like by the way the people behave, he’s a murderer, he’s a drunk, he’s a thief, a stealer capable of every worse atrocity the imagination can inspire, to maim, hurt, injure, torture and kill his fellowman. He lies asleep in his own vomit from drunkeness, shoots poison in his arms and kills himself daily, over and over. Robs and starts wars for greed money and power. Their God is a Liar, a Cheat, a Deceiver, a Farce, a Fraud, and a Fake and you can be glad their God is not your God if that’s the way they act because of their God. Be thankful for common sense.
And Jesus continued, not speaking to the question of “Are you a King then?” But speaking to the mission he campaigned for.
You see, just because the continuation of a sentence in the narrative follows immediately from the question, Are you a King then? Does in no way suggest that Jesus’s answer was concerning the King thing, it was not. Many Christians are textually adept but common sensically blind. Jesus was not speaking about being a King when he said
“To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world, THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS UNTO THE TRUTH. Every one that is of the truth hears my voice.
“Truth”, Pilate muttered, “What is truth?
Why did Pontius say that? Because one man’s truth is another man’s can del toro!
It is the eye of the beholder and Pilate’s sarcasm shows that he well knew that.
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October 9, 2017 at 2:09 pm
“Thank you for your response, especially your explanations about the models of the universe, multiverse and metaverse.”
You’re welcome.
“It appears that you’ve resigned yourself to explaining your truth to people who are stuck in their set of beliefs and as you know Brand Loyalty will prevent them from changing their views however you present your case.”
Interestingly, I don’t see it as “explaining my truth” so much as just asking questions based on the consequences of a stated belief. I don’t interject much of what I believe.
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October 9, 2017 at 4:54 pm
Hi Derek
I agree that mostly you pose questions but your post #168 seems to me more like an essay of more than 1700 words with few questions.
I liked your summary of the problems with Christianity which you stated at the end –
To me, the biggest problems for Christianity are:
1. The existence of evil and the fall of mankind in conjunction with claims that God is all powerful and all knowing yet also benevolent
2. The lack of any independent evidence for the existence of Jesus AS DESCRIBED in the Bible
3. God relying on an easily misinterpreted book as his manual for salvation, and allowing it to be lost to history with only translations of translations hundreds of years removed remaining.
It seems to me these are questions every Christian should also be asking about, since they go to the heart of Christianity and imply serious consequences if not thoroughly addressed.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 9, 2017 at 6:17 pm
Hi Leo
Thank you for your comments addressed to me in your post #180.
I’m unclear on a few points. I’ve copied the passage from Jn18 for reference:
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, “What accusation bring ye against this man?”
30 They answered and said unto him, “If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.”
31 Then said Pilate unto them, “Take ye him, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews, therefore, said unto him, “It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.”
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, “Art thou the King of the Jews?”
34 Jesus answered him, “Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?”
35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?”
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
37 Pilate, therefore, said unto him, “Art thou a king then?” Jesus answered, “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
38 Pilate saith unto him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, “I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom that I should release unto you one at the Passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?”
40 Then cried they all again, saying, “Not this man, but Barabbas.” Now Barabbas was a robber.
My thinking on verse 30 is that Jesus’ accusers were being deceitful by answering Pilate with a double negative. They could have said, “He is guilty of Blasphemy in our eyes and sedition against the Roman Empire,” but they did not.
Verse 31 shows why they did not deal with Jesus themselves. They wanted Him executed, which they would have done if they had been allowed to. It also shows that the laws in Leviticus 20 were still important to them and suggests that they were applied in the past and that they wanted the Romans to do their killing by proxy. This contravenes the sixth commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.”
You haven’t commented on verse 36 in which Christ speaks of His kingdom. I understand that it has no locality but wasn’t He condemning Himself to some extent by referring to it as, “My kingdom…” instead of the kingdom of humanity?
I agree with your explanation of verse 37 that Christ’s mission was to reveal the truth but I do not understand the term you used, “… can del toro!” Would you please explain as the translation from Spanish that I got didn’t make sense to me and I don’t like making presumptions.
Finally, I’m puzzled by what I’ve read about Barabbas. Verse 40 simply states that he was a robber but commentary suggests that he may have murdered people in the course of his robberies, or that he was a political insurrectionist. Also, that his first name was also Jesus and that his last name means son of the father. What are your views, please?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 9, 2017 at 8:08 pm
Hi Nava
You wrote, “Why only the eastern orthodox agenda, what about Roman Catholicism and the hundreds of denominations ….., this is a discussion about God and inconsistency which creates divisions in the church. Running out of steam I call it a day,” in your post#179.
Did you watch the video which was only 11m.32s long? It gave explanations of the dogma relating to several denominations and connects with how a monotheistic God relates to His creation, the universe and everything in it, including humanity’s special relationship with Him. Also, it follows on from my discussion with Derek Mathias about the nature of the universe and illustrates the Panentheistic view of God, rather than “….the eastern orthodox agenda.”
I think Roman Catholicism has been covered by many writers, not least Martin Luther (1483 – 1546). He was critical of the way their priests and Bishops tithed the poor, themselves growing rich from the proceeds and they accepted money from rich benefactors to buy “indulgences,” etc. [note correct form of the term from Latin, et cetera and not ‘ect’, as you’ve used]. Martin Luther is featured 9m.11s into the video! Did you miss him?
Also, the Catholic Church was responsible for: the atrocities of the Crusades; the Spanish Inquisition; depriving ordinary people of access to scriptures; maintaining that the scriptures should only be written and read in Latin on pain of death; maintaining the geocentric view of the universe on pain of death; depriving their followers of the use of condoms to control the size of their families and to prevent the spread of venereal diseases and AIDS; and it places the figurehead of the Pope on this earth as the Supreme Pastor.
I must say that I do not find your posts easy to read due to all the spelling and grammatical mistakes and the incorrect use and placement of punctuation marks so I do not know how we shall fare in discussions on this forum. You could consider writing with a word processor, correcting spelling and grammar, and then copying to the blog or you could use the tool from Grammarly if you have a version that’s free as we do in the UK as it corrects spelling, grammar and punctuation, as you write on blogs and in emails.
As I am accused of unfairly presenting the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church in my post #177, below is a link that allows readers to compare other Christian denominations:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/branches
The problem is the same for all Christian denominations: how to reconcile the existence of evil if God is Omnipotent (which I think implies Omniscience) and Omnibenevolent. As I’ve copied previously:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence came evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus (341 -270 BC)
Epicurus failed to include the more complex idea that God could be both benevolent and malevolent:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 9, 2017 at 9:04 pm
Dino:
Caca del toro is polite way of saying Bullshit.
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October 10, 2017 at 3:08 am
Thank you, Leo.
Dinos
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October 10, 2017 at 2:47 pm
Dino:
Luke is more explicit in the accusations against Jesus.
Luke 23:
1Then the whole council rose and led Jesus away to Pilate. 2And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this man subverting our nation, forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar, and proclaiming Himself to be Christ, a king.” 3So Pilate asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied.…
I believe Jesus spoke to humanity when he referred to “my Kingdom….” Jesus after all understood that he was a microcosm of the whole human race. So when he spoke about himself he spoke about himself representing everyman and Jesus was Everyman. And so there should be no margin of difference between what Jesus said or did or was, regarding his message of following the Father because the Father ultimately is the Father of Everyman too, so any person being born into that spiritual understanding could say what Jesus said to Philip:
John 14:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it teeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
In other words
He was the truth about God (The truth about the Life Forces that formed humans and a man’s humanity needs to reflect that understanding). Jesus interpreted deity. In the physical, visible body of his humanity he gave not only a physical, visible expression of his own invisible self but an invisible self intimately identified with his invisible (life force, he called Father) father who indwellt his humanity in the person of the holy spirit and whom he allowed from within his human spirit to gain total access to his human soul so that the father through the holy spirit could teach his mind, so control his emotions that the father in the son would direct his will and govern his behavior.
So the Lord Jesus constantly testified: John 5: 19; John 5:30; “Without my father I can do nothing”. Don’t you believe Philip that I am in my father and my father is in me? And the words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; the father who lives in me; he does the work; everything I do, he does; everything I say, he says; everything I am, he is. That’s why when you look at me you see him. Because you see, the Lord Jesus was not only the truth about God.
Now if ever there was a man who walked this earth who knew the truth about a man’s humanity and that relationship that must govern that man’s humanity, with God and God with him, that man was Jesus Christ. He just happened to be (the Life Forces) God who engineered man and who deliberately, though never himself never less than God stepped out of eternity into time and insisted of his own free volition, something he need never ever have done, being never ever less than God came into this world to behave as though he were never ever more than man. As opposed of course to man, who being never ever more than man, struts across this planet and behaves as though he were never ever less than God. That’s the essential difference. Jesus Christ never ever less than God behaved as though he were never ever more than man; man never ever more than man behaves as though he was never ever less than God. The truth about God and the truth about man; in other words, the Lord Jesus, as our creator and the one who assumed the office of the man he made knew exactly what that relationship would be that would govern his humanity on earth and his father, as God in heaven (the Kingdom within you) and deliberately submitted himself to those criteria of our humanity to the limitations that make man, man.
So here are two very simple points to establish: Jesus Christ in whom was seen the total glory of the father was the truth about God. But being the creator who made man, assuming his office, to fulfill his role was the truth about man. Now what is equally obvious is that the Lord Jesus was the truth about God because he was the truth about man because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God. In case I said that too fast, let me say it again. You see, all I’m doing is making the obvious, obvious; the tragedy is that obvious by and large is so obvious it ceases to be obvious. It’s the simplicity that is in Jesus.
You see we are past masters at complicating the issue and turning our Christian faith into a complicated procedure when in point of fact, it derives from a person; it’s of him, through him, to him, ALL THINGS, to whom alone be glory. (he revolutionist who opened the eyes of humans to their common humanity that was fabricated by Forces unknown to humans so Jesus painted a picture for us to understand the invisible.
He’s the beginning and the end; he’s the author and the finisher of our faith; he’s the source and the sustenance; he’s the root and the fatness; Christ himself. And he came into this world to be the truth about God and the truth about man and he was the truth about God because he was the truth about man, because the truth about man is that man was created to be the truth about God.
To reflect the Life Forces from which we and all lifeforms are formulated. Evolutionists say then same thing in their own way and Creationists say the same thing in their way. Everybody talks about the same Life Forces but they talk past each other in their zeal to prove they know exactly what they are talking about and you don’t while all the time talking about exactly the same thing, just in different ways. Humanity invisible life force depends not on your skin color, or what you look like, that’s purely reflecting environmental influences but that is not what unites humanity, it is the Life Forces that we all have and explore in unique ways….It’s the Life Forces that coarse through our bodies that unites Humanity………if you let it.
Then you can say in light of that definition Jesus and I are one, the Father and I are one. That is not arrogance to affirm, that is understanding the essence Jesus messaged to the world. Give him the credit. Just be thankful for the hero who opened the student’s mind.
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October 10, 2017 at 6:13 pm
Thank you, Leo. I will think about what you’ve written.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 11, 2017 at 2:52 pm
“I agree that mostly you pose questions but your post #168 seems to me more like an essay of more than 1700 words with few questions.”
Oh, true enough. Once the questions don’t lead to any ruminations, I feel the need to express some of the ruminations myself.
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October 11, 2017 at 7:53 pm
Now if one comes to the conclusion, as did the Romans about their mythological gods and the Greeks about their supernatural mythical gods, that allowed the nations to move forward with common sense of humanity, instead of the supernatural mythological gods, to what would you attribute to explain our heritage and how we managed to get this far?
Humanity’s common sense? Coming of age? Evolving to a higher level? Maturation of the human race? Probably none of those when you look around the world and see little progress or little evidence of maturity. Especially when the people in a country called the superpower of the world elected a buffoonish liar as President, a North Korean Despot who wants to rule the world by nuclear fear, a Country that tries to usurp its adversaries by producing oodles of fake news stories to undermine a nation, Countries that foment terrorism to sabotage peace around the world, a humanity that has to devote the super talents of its people to invent death machines to kill their fellow man in war because the world’s nations can’t be trusted not to obliterate its enemies instead of health innovations to preserve and promote the sanctity of life…….
Are you really sure that we have managed to get very far at all?
For all the Godly virtues and Commandments is the world really ready, willing and able to rid itself of nuclear weapons and turn a new leaf for a new humanity.
Somehow I think we are not there yet. The glass is still half empty from where I sit.
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October 11, 2017 at 9:51 pm
Leo, I’m inclined to agree with you.
I have repeated several times the contradiction of Capital Punishment (public executions) in accordance with the instructions in Leviticus 20 and in contradiction to the sixth commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” They excused themselves from this heinous crime by placing the bloodguilt on the transgressors. Please check my post #167.
The same thing is happening in this modern age. The people of Vietnam were blamed for necessitating intervention by the USA to defeat the evil of communism. Also, despite the lack of WMDs in Iraq, the USA and the UK had to intervene to depose the evil of Saddam Hussein. It’s always THEIR fault when powerful nations that profess to be Christian have to wage war on them. The bloodguilt is on them.
I’ve mentioned Leo Tolstoy before. In 1884, he wrote a book, “What I believe.” A link to a pdf file is included below for any interested readers:
Click to access kingdom-god-tolstoy.pdf
Tolstoy praises the Quakers for practising Christ’s teaching on non-resistance to evil by force. Below is an extract:
“Among the first responses called forth by my book were some letters from American Quakers. In these letters, expressing their sympathy with my views on the unlawfulness for a Christian of war and the use of force of any kind, the Quakers gave me details of their own so-called sect, which for more
than two hundred years has actually professed the teaching of Christ on non-resistance to evil by force, and does not make use of weapons in self-defense.
The Quakers sent me also their pamphlets, journals, and books, from which I learned how they had, years ago, established beyond doubt the duty for a
Christian of fulfilling the command of non-resistance to evil by force, and had exposed the error of the Church’s teaching in allowing war and capital punishment.”
Christianity never adopted the principle of non-violence; only a few of its sects did.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 12, 2017 at 8:18 am
Dino:
In the sense pf non resistance, Ghandi exemplifies this.
One of the first benefits for non resistance; in particular nonviolent resistance is that you will not, generally, lose your life by doing so. Living for a cause is more effective that dying for a cause, martyrdom is no paradise.
Short Wiki Blurb:
Major nonviolent resistance advocates include Mahatma Gandhi, Henry David Thoreau, Gene Sharp, Te Whiti o Rongomai, Tohu Kākahi, Lauaki Namulauulu Mamoe, Leo Tolstoy, Alice Paul, Martin Luther King, Jr, James Bevel, Václav Havel, Andrei Sakharov, and Lech Wałęsa. There are hundreds of books and papers on the subject—see Further reading below.
From 1966 to 1999, nonviolent civic resistance played a critical role in 50 of 67 transitions from authoritarianism. Recently, nonviolent resistance has led to the Rose Revolution in Georgia and the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. Current nonviolent resistance includes the Jeans Revolution in Belarus, the “Jasmine” Revolution in Tunisia, and the fight of the Cuban dissidents. Many movements which promote philosophies of nonviolence or pacifism have pragmatically adopted the methods of nonviolent action as an effective way to achieve social or political goals. They employ nonviolent resistance tactics such as: information warfare, picketing, marches, vigils, leafletting, samizdat, magnitizdat, satyagraha, protest art, protest music and poetry, community education and consciousness raising, lobbying, tax resistance, civil disobedience, boycotts or sanctions, legal/diplomatic wrestling, underground railroads, principled refusal of awards/honors, and general strikes. Nonviolent action differs from pacifism by potentially being proactive and interventionist.
Authoritarian governments don’t like this methods as they don’t have an excuse to kill the resistors mainly: “for fear of their own lives”
From Post 95 on “How a dice can show that God exists”
“Sometimes my commentaries are lengthy and I have not yet achieved the art of succinct editing; AKA,the Précis.
I don’t actually see the soul as spirit, I see the soul more as emotion: Soul-Emotion, Body-Mind, Will-Spirit:
Body, Soul, Spirit / Mind, Emotion, Will the three Musketeers of humanity.
Mind, Emotion and Spirit can each also be synonymous with Disposition. But I can understand the body as having three different functions but in one capsule, the Body, The Immune System, the Memory and the Will to decide, to behave, to do or not to do, to be or not to be.
I give you this to ponder.”
Post 74 from the same Theosophical Ruminations site as above:
The Secret of Happiness :
Nasrudin is known as much for his wisdom as his foolishness, and many are those who have sought out his teaching. One devotee tracked him down for many years before finding him in the marketplace sitting atop a pile of banana peels–no one knows why. ”Oh great sage, Nasrudin,” said the eager student. “I must ask you a very important question, the answer to which we all seek: What is the secret to attaining happiness?” Nasrudin thought for a time, then responded. “The secret of happiness is good judgment.” ”Ah,” said the student. “But how do we attain good judgement?” ”From experience,” answered Nasrudin. ”Yes,” said the student. “But how do we attain experience?” ”Bad judgment.”
* “COMING OUT”:
Coming out of the atheist closet in pre-biblical and post biblical days where atheism remains in many old school religious Muslim countries today is blasphemy that calls for capital punishment.
Given the evidence of this cultural mindset, it is no small wonder that few people ever publicly took their life into their own hands by disobeying religious decrees. Displaying blasphemous behavior in word or deed in disobedience by omission or commission the first four religious decrees of the Mosaic Commandments demand capital punishment.
1st & 2nd. Commandments, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment – Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Among the three cardinal sins for which the penalty was death, idolatry stood first (Talmud Pes. 25a and parallels).
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment – Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”.
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment – Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”.
Ten commandments offer ten capital penalty Offenses where the bloodguilt is on the accused.
If Democracies and Kings justify death to the Subjects why is it so difficult for them to understand that the Subjects then can justify death as well, by the example of their overseers?………and built into every God is “Justified Wrath” upon the heads of the disobedient!
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January 14, 2021 at 7:46 pm
If God knows what will happen, and he caused the first thing that ever happened, which leads to all other things happening, then he caused all those subsequent things to happen by causing the first thing. This means that predestination is immutable.
By creating the world with the rules he set up, God determined, and therefore fated, all of our decisions, unless he decided to refuse to know with certainty.
If God decided to give us free will by not-deciding our actions, then it must also be possible for God to not-know which course of events would come to pass, even if he knows the results of each one of them.
Either way, eternal conscious torture damnation can not be justified by any theodicy without convicting God of entrapment for alliwing us to be born (Psalm 139) in sin (Psalm 51) and blame us for not being perfect.
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January 14, 2021 at 9:27 pm
oron61, your logic does not hold up. Causal chains are only determinate when free will is not involved. If free will is introduced at any point in a causal chain, the chain can be redirected. God gave us free will so that we can decide what to do. He doesn’t determine our actions, even though He has always known precisely what we would choose. But it’s us choosing it, not God. His foreknowledge of our choices does not change the fact that our choices are made freely.
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January 15, 2021 at 5:27 pm
“Causal chains are only determinate when free will is not involved. If free will is introduced at any point in a causal chain, the chain can be redirected.”
But what evidence is there that free will actually exists? I’ve posted a longer list of evidence against the notion of free will in the Bible above, but I’ll repeat some of the key verses:
• Proverbs 16:4 THE LORD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING to its proper end—even the wicked for the day of disaster. [He doesn’t just determine SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD. HOW THEN CAN ANYONE UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN WAY?
• Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord’s hand THE KING’S HEART IS A STREAM OF WATER THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL WHO PLEASE HIM.
• Ephesians 1:5 He PREDESTINED us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
• Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? NEITHER CAN YOU DO GOOD who are accustomed to doing evil.
• Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those DESTINED FOR DEATH, captivity to those DESTINED FOR CAPTIVITY, and the sword to those DESTINED FOR THE SWORD.
• Psalm 37:23 A MAN’S STEPS ARE ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [God delights in establishing a man’s steps to take the wrong path?!]
• Psalm 90:9 WE SPEND OUR YEARS AS A TALE THAT IS TOLD.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK before one of them came to be.
If those passages are true, and God plans EVERYTHING, then where is there any room at all for free will? Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible does it say we have free will, it only says we have to make the right choices. But just as a mechanistic insect or even a simple computer program can still make choices, choice doesn’t require free will. I agree we have the PERCEPTION of free will…but evidently that is just an illusion.
I think the last two Psalm verses above give us a hint for an analogy of how and why this would be: it’s like God is a writer and we are the characters in his novel, which he writes for his own entertainment. Just like characters in a book, we THINK we have free will and that all our thoughts and actions are ours to make, but the reality is that the writer plans EVERYTHING that happens, both in thought and action.
The difference is, characters in a novel can’t actually suffer, and thus there is no harm in having horrible things happen to them. But we DO suffer, and yet God deliberately “writes” people to commit murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, incest, cannibalism, betrayal, lying, and more. According to the Bible, he himself commits or condones all those evil behaviors…yet he sends the vast majority of humanity to hell to be tortured for doing exactly what he created them to do, and for which he himself is guilty.
This to me is the only way to reconcile the above passages with the passages mentioning we have to make the right choices. Does anyone have a more accurate interpretation?
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January 20, 2021 at 2:32 pm
Thank you, Derek, you have stated in post #195, much of what I would have stated.
Your Bible references are mostly from the Old Testament or Torah. I’m at a loss to understand how the Hebrew people could exercise their free will even if their actions were not pre-determined?
Who in their right mind would commit adultery or a homosexual act or go with a beast knowing that the penalty was death by stoning? Maybe they avoided sinful acts not because they were pure in heart but because they were likely to be caught and summarily executed.
Why did God expect the people to execute others who were deemed to have sinned? Surely, your duty to participate in the execution conflicts directly with the Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.”
God has the power to take the lives of the sinners and He did so on some occasions, e.g.
Genesis 38:8-10
New King James Version
8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go into your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his, and it came to pass, when he went into his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; therefore He killed him also.”
Apparently, God is willing to kill people directly when He chooses to!
I can’t give you a clearer explanation to reconcile Bible texts that you highlighted with others that tell us that we must make the right choices. There is a possibility that some of the texts of the Bible were not God-inspired but written by men to control their tribes.
Peace to all,
Dinos Constantinou
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January 20, 2021 at 2:49 pm
“I can’t give you a clearer explanation to reconcile Bible texts that you highlighted with others that tell us that we must make the right choices. There is a possibility that some of the texts of the Bible were not God-inspired but written by men to control their tribes.”
Thanks for the reply. Your solution seems to be the most likely: the Bible must contain mistakes, and thus one of the following must surely be false:
1. God exists
2. God is good
3. God is all powerful
4. Evil exists
The problem with scripture containing mistakes is that there is no way to determine which claims are true and which are false–except for those that can be independently verified, of course. But at least it allows Christians to reasonably reject the claims that contradict science.
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January 21, 2021 at 7:09 am
Thank you, Derek, for your post number 197.
I understand your thinking but there are other ways of expressing the theoretical nature of God assuming His existence and that He inspired some of the scriptural texts of The Bible:
1) He is both good and bad and we are like Him (in His image)
Isaiah 45:7
King James Version
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
2) If God created the universe and all living creatures, it’s not contingent on Him to impart revelation to prophets through words which are a man-made construct invented by us to meet our communication needs.
3) The OT texts inspired by God are the thoughts of the prophets expressed by themselves. How can we who were not in communion with God hope to distinguish them from other writings?
4) The NT texts were chosen by Church leaders, including the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and the First Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. They decided that a book should be included in the Bible if it was written by:
(a) one of Jesus’ disciples;
(b) someone who was a witness to Christ’s ministry;
(c) someone who interviewed witnesses to Christ’s ministry.
If we assume that the Church leaders did a good job of weeding out the books or texts that should not be included we are still left with a personal interpretation of the scriptural writer’s experience or knowledge of God, Hebrew leaders and Christ and no writer was there 6,000 years ago at the time of Adam and Eve.
I certainly agree with the last sentence of post 197.
“But at least it allows Christians to reasonably reject the claims that contradict science.”
Peace to all,
Dinos Constantinou
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January 22, 2021 at 2:32 pm
“1) He is both good and bad and we are like Him (in His image)”
Hmm, I would agree that God’s behavior is good and bad, but most Christians believe God is good and not evil, mainly because the Bible seems to reserve goodness for God alone:
• Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”
• Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
• Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
“2) If God created the universe and all living creatures, it’s not contingent on Him to impart revelation to prophets through words which are a man-made construct invented by us to meet our communication needs.”
But I can think of few WORSE ways to impart divine knowledge than through books. The problem with books is that they lose and change meaning when they’re translated, and they lose and change meaning when they are copied over and over again, like a game of telephone. We know by reading the earliest copies of the Bible that they contain thousands of differences, some of which are significant. Worse, EVERY religion imparts knowledge through books, making the Bible just one among many, resulting in thousands of religions.
Surely an all-knowing God would have known this would happen, and an all-powerful God would have taken steps to ensure it wouldn’t happen…such as providing everyone at birth with all the evidence and knowledge they need to know about God. After all, the Bible does say he wants EVERYONE to be saved:
• 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 2 Peter 3:9 Instead [the Lord] is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE TO PERISH, but everyone to come to repentance.
So choosing a book to impart his message seems like something only people would do.
“3) The OT texts inspired by God are the thoughts of the prophets expressed by themselves. How can we who were not in communion with God hope to distinguish them from other writings?”
True. But how can those who BELIEVED they were in communion with God hope to distinguish them from other writings. After all, God does make people lie:
• 1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet.
“4) The NT texts were chosen by Church leaders, including the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and the First Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. They decided that a book should be included in the Bible if it was written by:
(a) one of Jesus’ disciples;
(b) someone who was a witness to Christ’s ministry;
(c) someone who interviewed witnesses to Christ’s ministry.”
The problem there is that nobody knows who wrote the gospels. And some of the books (such as the Gospel of Thomas) appear to have just as much validity as any of the other gospels, yet they were not included by the Council of Nicea. And there’s no reason given as to why.
“If we assume that the Church leaders did a good job of weeding out the books or texts that should not be included we are still left with a personal interpretation of the scriptural writer’s experience or knowledge of God, Hebrew leaders and Christ”
That’s why the whole idea of a book to pass on the word of God seems like a guaranteed disaster. Indeed, it has been.
“and no writer was there 6,000 years ago at the time of Adam and Eve.”
Well, I think there is just far too much evidence against the idea of a 6,000 y.o. creation anyway. Just some of the cultural evidence alone is a problem. For example, the Yazidi people who live primarily in northern Iraq have the oldest known calendar, which began in 4750 BCE—that’s almost 750 years BEFORE Adam and Eve. Also, it may be worth mentioning that the Tower of Babel was supposed to have been built in 2242 BCE, and it is the event the Bible claims is the first time multiple languages appeared (Genesis 11:1-9). And yet we have many ancient texts that are around a thousand years older than that, including Sumerian writings from 3200 BCE and ancient Egyptian writings from 3500 BCE. That’s not even getting into the biological, geological, cosmological, etc. evidence for a much, much older Earth and universe. So I can see an old earth creationism or theistic evolution solution, but not a realistic young earth option.
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January 27, 2021 at 5:07 am
Hi Derek!
Thank you for your reply to my post #198.
I will try to clarify my position.
I was acting (to some degree) as a common Christian advocate or Apologetic but I am far from it. I am neither a Catholic nor a Protestant. I was baptised as an infant into the Greek Orthodox tradition of Christianity, which is rather different.
As a purist Orthodox Christian, I accept neither the Pope nor The Bible as an authority on God. The writings of the Church Fathers (St John Chrysostom and St Gregory of Nyssa in particular for me) are more important.
Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”
I don’t think it likely that Jesus Christ said this as written in Luke since He was considered to be the only perfect human and divine too! The largest Christian denomination today, the Roman Catholic, believes that Christ is part of the Trinity and co-substantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The point I was making about inspiration from God to the prophets of the OT is that it’s not necessary for God to commune with them in words. God is not limited in this way. Neither are we as we understand something from people’s tone, writing style, body language and what they do.
If God is omnipotent He can commune by moving us to feel and understand and act without words. The Epiphany of Saul (renamed Paul) who was blinded (if true) would be an example.
I don’t believe in a young earth. II think the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
I agree with you about the time from the historical events that were said to have happened and their eventual record in a book of the Bible. I was saying that nobody was there 6,000 years ago (according to the Torah) to witness and write about Adam and Eve.
Do we have Free Will? It depends what we mean by it. I think the ways of the world prevent us from making decisions of our own. To a large extent, we are affected by Agentic behaviour to obey authority and follow rules as Stanley Milgram demonstrated by his experiments.
I hope this is clear.
Peace to all,
Dinos Constantinou
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January 28, 2021 at 3:06 pm
Ah, okay, I understand your POV now. Thanks.
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