Why should we pray for the lost to be saved? Why should we pray for revival? We’ve been told we should, and it is a strongly rooted practice among us, but is the idea of praying for the lost to find salvation a Biblical concept? Is it a reasonable concept? I am persuaded that the answer to both of these questions is no.
The Bible repeatedly tells us to pray for the laborers who are harvesting the field of souls, but I am not aware of any passage that tells us to pray for the lost souls themselves. Consider the following passages:
Luke 10:2—Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. (see also Mt 9:38)
Eph 6:18-19—Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.
Col 4:3—Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
II Thes 3:1—Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
If the Bible does not instruct us to pray for the lost, why has the practice become so deeply rooted among us? My personal theory is that we want to believe our prayers for the lost are efficacious for their salvation because it gives us a sense of control. Prayer is something tangible. When we pray it gives us the sense that we have contributed something to the situation so as to possibly affect the outcome we desire. We want to think that our prayers will be instrumentally responsible in someone’s salvation. The more we pray the better chance they have of being saved, we reason. It’s often described as “intercessory prayer” in which we stand before God in their stead. But does the Bible ever describe such “intercessory prayer?” There are 11 passages in Scripture that speak of intercession, none of which ever involve interceding for the salvation of the lost:
Is 53:12—Jesus intercedes for us in His sinless sacrifice
Is 59:6—The intercessor God was looking for was someone to administer justice in an unjust society. Since He could not find one He took it upon Himself to judge
Jer 7:16—God says not to make intercession for Ephraim because He wants to destroy them.
Jer 27:18—Make intercession to God so that temple vessels do not go to Babylon
Jer 36:25—Intercession from one human to another
Rom 8:26—Spirit makes intercession for us through us, not through us for someone else
Rom 8:34—Christ makes intercession for us
Rom 11:2—Elijah interceded for judgment against Israel
I Tim 2:1—Make intercessions for all men, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in godliness
Heb 7:25—Jesus is our high priest who makes intercession for us
In these passages Jesus is interceding for us, or people are interceding on behalf of others requesting that they be judged! Not once do we find someone praying for the lost and such a prayer called “intercession.”
While it is a common belief and practice among us to pray for years for our friends and loved ones who have rejected the Gospel message that they might be saved, we never find the early church praying for people for years on end that they might change their mind about Jesus. They simply preached the Gospel, collected the fruit, and moved on. Some accepted the message while others rejected it. Those who accepted it were welcomed into the believing community. Those who rejected it were left to themselves. The apostles moved on to other places and other people. In Acts 18:6 Luke said that when the Jews rejected Paul’s message he shook his clothes and said, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” According to Paul he did his duty in preaching the message of Christ. How his audience chose to respond was up to them. They were responsible for their choice, not Paul. So when they chose to reject the message Paul moved on to other people and locations. He did not stick around and continue pleading with them to change their hearts and minds toward Christ. He followed Jesus’ advice not to cast pearls before pigs, and Jesus’ instructions to the Twelve and seventy to brush the dust off their shoes and move on to the next city if their message was rejected (Mt 10; Mk 6; Lk 9, 10). Our job is to preach the Gospel, not to ensure the results. If those who hear the Gospel accept it, we are delighted. If they don’t accept it, we mourn their fate but we move on. I am afraid that we waste too much precious time preaching to and praying for those whose hearts are hard toward God, having freely chosen to reject Him.
On the logical end of things, what do we think praying for people to be saved accomplishes? If we say enough prayers for someone, is God going to overrule their free will and force them to be saved? Of course not! If God was in the business of making people serve Him evangelism would not be necessary, and free will would be a farce. So what’s the point of praying for the lost, then? Do we think it will motivate God to work “overtime” in their lives? Do we honestly think God is just sitting around twiddling His thumbs until we say our prayer, and then He kicks it into high gear? Of course not! God is already actively doing all He can do to bring the lost to saving faith, whether we pray for them or not. He loves them more than we ever could. That’s why He paid the ultimate sacrifice for them: He gave His life in exchange for theirs. When did He determine to do this? After we prayed? No, before we ever even existed! So if our prayers for the lost cannot make God work any harder on their hearts, and our prayers cannot change the will of the sinner, what is the purpose in praying for them?
How does this tie into revival? We always hear “Pray for revival to come,” but revival is not the kind of thing that comes through prayer. Souls are saved through the preaching of the Gospel, not by a well-meaning saint praying in the prayer room. Our prayer lives may help us be the kind of Christians we need to be to engage the unbelieving public with the Gospel (boldness, character), but prayers for the lost are not efficacious in themselves. Strangely enough, spending lots of time praying for revival may actually hinder revival because it keeps us from doing the one thing that brings revival: evangelism.
This may sound cold-hearted to some, but I do not mean it that way. I’m just trying to be Biblical in the content of my prayers and my approach toward evangelism. I am trying to think through the things we do, weighing them against Scripture and reason. I am still open to being persuaded back toward the traditional understanding/practices if anyone can supply me with some solid Biblical references and a reasonable explanation as to how prayers for the lost can alter their eternal destiny. Would anybody like to give it a shot?
March 2, 2006 at 2:43 am
I want to comment before I read it on what has been my view for a long time now. And I also tell this to people all the time.. Don’t pray for the lost, pray for the church. Because it’s through the Church that that God reaches the Lost. The lost don’t need “revival” because they’ve never been alive (with the exception of backsliders)..the church needs revival. In the vast majority of epistles when Paul talks about prayer I believe he always ask prayer for himself to do the work of God and as well he instructed us “Pray for one another”…not “pray for lost souls”…now…I shall go read and see if Jason is as much a genius as I am 🙂
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March 2, 2006 at 3:16 am
One more thing…the disciples prayed that God would grant them boldness to speak His word…
Not sure how this fits in, but didn’t Jesus pray for those that took His life that God would forgive them? Lk 23:34..though he did not actually pray for them to be saved, he prayed for their sins to be forgiven.
Abraham prayed for the Lost of Sodom to be spared..and in that example he is not only praying for the lost but an entire city..
Though some of theses are not specifically “Lord save them” the outcome could lead a person to salvation (by softening their hearts)
Mat 5:54 praying for those that use you.
We are also to pray “your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” and we know His will includes that all should come to repentance.
And let’s not forget Stephen Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Romans 10:1 Paul prays for Israel to be saved..
However the vast majority of prayers and commands to pray are for the church…not in a selfish way but rather to be empowered, have opportunity and have boldness
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March 2, 2006 at 9:09 am
Wow. What a great question…
Honestly – that is a great question… I’m going to look into this some… but – I’ll tell you – I know you have a point … we can pray all we want to – but we cannot force God to “force” someone to make the right choice…
So – I’d like to defend those that are promoting praying for the lost… which really, can that be a bad thing? But I’ll have to look a little to see what is justified and what is not…
slr
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March 2, 2006 at 12:30 pm
I’m not sure how this e-blog works, so hopefully it works out. I’m intending to respond to “Why Pray for the Lost to be Saved?”
First of all, I do appreciate the notion that it takes more than just prayer to reach the lost. We need to be sharing the Gospel and be living testimonies. However, I feel the post ignores the spiritual component to why people reject the Gospel. It’s not solely a mental battle, and intercessory prayer is a spiritual weapon. Just as prayer without preaching is likely to be ineffective, so too is preaching without prayer.
Of course, God will never force someone to accept the Gospel. Sis. Julie Vasquez tells the story of how her dad died unsaved, and she bitterly asked God why. His soft response was, “I was knocking, but he didn’t answer.” Ultimately, the decision to accept salvation belongs to the individual, and that I won’t dispute.
However, prayer can, and does, affect the heart of the lost listener. Prayer breaks down spiritual strongholds. Prayer affects the natural in a supernatural way. If it’s true about healing the sick, and providing our needs, then why not in changing how people feel or think? Ultimately, it’s the individual’s decision to accept or reject the Gospel, but the Lord can move on their hearts to be more receptive and to gain understanding and revelation. And we can pray against hindering spirits.
The Bible does say that the Lord moves the heart of kings. And God hardened Pharoah’s heart.
So, I do believe God can, and does, move on people’s mind and hearts in a supernatural way. And since I believe that the supernatural happens when we pray, I believe we can pray for lost to be more receptive to the Gospel, and we can pray for annointing as we preach the Gospel.
I don’t think we should pray, “Lord save them, save them!” He already did His part, like you said. But I do think we should pray for the Lord to move upon their heart and minds, and we should pray against evil forces that exalt themselves above God.
Also, I think the way Moses and others in the Bible prayed for God to not destroy the Israelites, is a good basis for believing we should pray for the lost. The Lost are condemned to hell without Christ. When I pray for lost loved ones, I often pray that the Lord have mercy on them and tarry in His judgment.
As for praying for revival: Jason said: “We always hear ‘Pray for revival to come,’ but revival is not the kind of thing that comes through prayer.” I disagree. We can have “revival” services without prayer, but not revival. Evangelism without annointing is rarely, if ever, effective, and annointing comes from prayer.
Also, I don’t remember a whole lot about the famous preachers who brought about the first and second great awakenings, but I do remember that they would travail for hours before preaching. They were annointed.
I remember a small group of people from church travailed for hours before a revival service, and 14 came from off the streets and received the Holy Ghost. Did our prayers have nothing to do with it? Doesn’t God draw people by His Spirit?
As the famous cliche goes about various matters:
There are two types of people when it comes to believing in interceding for the lost: those who don’t believe it works, and those who have tried it.
Lastly, the rationale you used to argue we shouldn’t pray for the lost or revival, can be dangerously extended. Just because the Bible doesn’t say specifically “pray for the lost,” doesn’t mean we shouldn’t. The Bible says plenty about spiritual warfare.
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March 2, 2006 at 1:51 pm
1Ti 2:1 (GNB) First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people; 2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
I kinda like that one… this would be one – (I know you referanced this in your article) but it seems here that the word exhort – is akin to a plee for US to pray in vs. 1 – pray for ALL to live in reverence to GOD… that would be a starting point towards salvation if the “ALL men” inculded some that didn’t know or fear GOD…
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March 2, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Seni, I think maybe you hit on this. Im not sure if this was your point, but maybe we can’t pray “God save them”…but maybe we can pray that God would do more in that persons life to break their pride….humble them. Maybe also in praying for the lost we are doing spiritual battle against any spiritual forces that would try to keep or close the doors on us reaching a city.
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March 2, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Jhl (who is this?)
Yes, Jesus did pray for those who crucified Him to be forgiven…but forgiven for what? Forgiveness for the act of crucifying him. They were not forgiven of all their sins (the same could be said of the Stephen example, even if we assume that God answered Stephen’s prayer). It was not absolution, and thus they still have other sins to stand before God and give account for (unless they accept the salvation of Christ).
Abraham’s prayer for Sodom was to spare their temporal lives, not their eternal lives. In the end God did neither. Only Lot and his family were spared (temporally, not spiritually per se).
Romans 10:1 is a good Scripture to consider. I had not thought of that one. On its face it does appear that Paul prayed for people’s salvation. But does Paul really mean to say he actually prays to God that He will save Israel? If he did, I must conclude that God did not answer his prayers because Israel was not saved. Later in the book Paul spoke of a time in the future when all of Israel would be saved. The fact that Paul knew this was in the future seems to show that Paul’s prayer to God was more of an expression of desirable hope rather than earnest expectation. And the confidence Paul had that Israel would be saved in the future was based on his knowledge of prophecy, not on His expectation that God would answer his prayers.
When we look at the context this interpretation seems all the more reasonable. In vs. 14-15 he wrote, “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” What was Paul’s solution to saving Israel? It was the preaching the Gospel, not praying to God on their behalf. He continued in vs. 16-17: “But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, ‘Lord, who has believed our message?’ Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” Again, what makes the difference between the saved and the unsaved is (1) hearing and (2) believing the Gospel. No role for prayer on their behalf is mentioned.
Jason
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March 2, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Seni,
I never said conversion was solely a mental battle, nor that it was not a spiritual battle. Those categories were not even brought up in my post. But for the sake of addressing your point I would agree that it is both a mental and a spiritual battle.
I am arguing two points: (1) the Bible never tells us to pray for the lost, but only to pray for those who are evangelizing the lost with the Gospel, that they will be bold and speak as they ought to speak; (2) that it seems unreasonable to believe that prayer could actually affect someone’s salvation.
I have two reasons for believing the latter: (1) It is logically impossible for God to make someone freely choose Him, and yet salvation must be freely chosen. We can pray and pray for them to change their will, but neither we nor God are able to do so (arguably God may be able but He is unwilling); (2) To think that praying for people to be saved increases their chances of being saved presumes that our prayer motivates God to do more than He is already doing to bring that person to salvation. I have a problem with a God who is less concerned about their salvation than I am! The God I read about in Scripture has given His all, and continues to give His all to bring all men to repentance. God is actively engaged in their lives in attempt to bring them to salvation whether I pray for them or not.
You said, “However, prayer can, and does, affect the heart of the lost listener. Prayer breaks down spiritual strongholds.” I disagree. Prayer does nothing. Only God does something. The question, then, is does our prayer to God for their salvation cause God to work on their heart more than He is already doing to break down spiritual strongholds? Is God sitting idle until you pray for someone, and then He decides to go to work in response to your prayer? Or is God only giving 70% effort until you pray, at which point He begins to increase His effort proportional to the amount of time you spend in prayer for the individual? I think not.
I agree with you when you say, “Prayer affects the natural in a supernatural way. If it’s true about healing the sick, and providing our needs, then why not in changing how people feel or think?” But I don’t agree with your assumption that God is not already working as much as He can on the lost to change their feelings and thoughts, irrespective of our prayers for that individual.
You wrote, “The Bible does say that the Lord moves the heart of kings. And God hardened Pharoah’s heart. So, I do believe God can, and does, move on people’s mind and hearts in a supernatural way.” I agree. But notice that no one prayed for God to do these things. God did these things because He wanted to. That’s exactly what I am arguing.
You wrote, “Also, I think the way Moses and others in the Bible prayed for God to not destroy the Israelites, is a good basis for believing we should pray for the lost. The Lost are condemned to hell without Christ. When I pray for lost loved ones, I often pray that the Lord have mercy on them and tarry in His judgment.” But there is a distinction. God does not need one to freely choose to be spared temporal judgment in order to spare them from temporal judgment (or to heal them, etc.), but He does need them to freely choose to be spared from eternal judgment. One necessarily involves their will while the other does not.
You said, “We can have ‘revival’ services without prayer, but not revival. Evangelism without annointing is rarely, if ever, effective, and annointing comes from prayer.” True, but what needs to be anointed?: the messenger of the Gospel. That is exactly what I argued the Bible teaches: we pray for the messenger.
You are right that just because the Bible does not say to pray for the lost does not automatically mean we should not. That’s where my logical argument comes in. I am arguing that the Bible does not say to do it because it would not be efficacious in bringing about what is being prayed for. Could I be wrong in that? Yes, but you would have to show me Biblically or logically how.
Jason
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March 2, 2006 at 5:45 pm
I should also note that I don’t oppose those who pray for the lost. Even if it does not help their salvation, it surely cannot hurt it! But the idea that we should pray for the lost could become spiritually dangerous for some believers. How so? Because some believers actually believe that the salvation of the lost is determined to one extent or another on much they pray for them. If the person(s) they pray for dies in their sin the believer may condemn themselves for not having prayed enough for that person, reasoning that if they had prayed more the person would have been saved. It’s their fault that they are lost.
Or, rather than believing that they failed the sinner and God by their lack of prayers, they may think God failed them (the believer) and the sinner. Why? Because they spent so much time praying, and yet God did not answer like He was supposed to. And if God cannot be trusted to answer their prayers, why should they continue to believe in Him? It can really shake some people’s faith.
Of course the problem is that they were praying and believing for something that the Bible did not tell them to pray for or promise them, and they had unbiblical expectations. Because their faith was misdirected in the first place they come to either doubt their own faith/spirituality, or doubt God Himself. That’s why I think it is important for believers to address this topic.
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 9:28 am
1Ti 2:1 (GNB) First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people; 2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
Alright – the urging referred to here is for all people – the saved and the lost…
Now, what else would the primary prayer for someone be that is lost…???
Pray for their crops…
Pray for their health…?
I don’t think so… it’d be to pray that they’d be found… right?
Well, the directive is given in the following verse…pray that they have a good life… and that they live in “ALL reverence” to GOD… that sounds like PRAYING for a turn in their lives… if ALL includes the unsaved… and if then the unsaved are going to live in ALL reverence… wouldn’t that be pretty close to praying that the unsaved change from unsaved to saved?
I donno – just a thought?
Also, it comes with a “1st of all” that seems to out some emphisis of priority upon those that are praying…
hmmmm????
“Give me Scotland or I die” John Knox
“O Lord, give me souls or take my soul” George Whitefield,
“I cannot endure existence if Jesus is to be so dishonored” Henry Martyn, while praying for those trapped in false religion.
slr
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March 3, 2006 at 9:46 am
Honestly now, can you really pray for the lost without that prayer returning to you as a burden to do something about their lost condition?
I wish I could talk to you about all of this… to much to express here in written word…
But I was praying for a friend of mine – hadn’t seen him in a very long time… then later that morning – I bumped into him… I was so thrilled… I was sure that God was going to do something great… I was sure that this was a divine appointment…
My friend however, while glad to see me, was not in the same “spiritual” frame of mind… he remains far from his former walk with God to this day…
Was God trying to make arraignment to help him make a turn – I believe He was… was God trying to (within His own self-appointed limitations) stir a change… I think He was… was God ignoring my prayer… NO… I don’t think so…. I continue to pray for my friend… I continue to “watch & pray” and perhaps next time… there will be something from my Friend that God & I can work with…
We can’t pray and do nothing… but I think as is often the case… the prayer is a much for ourselves as it is to try to MOVE God…
Praising God doesn’t remind God of his greatness…
He doesn’t wake up having a bad day… and our praise somehow gives us the strength to make it through to the next day…
He wants us to praise Him so we continually remind ourselves of How GREAT HE is in comparison to how small we are…
He is worthy… but doesn’t NEED it…? Does He?
I think praying for the lost fulfills the same kinda purpose… it keeps them fresh in our minds… and He can speak to us or to others as to how to approach them…
Keep on praying for your lost loved ones… but don’t let it end there… listen to what God tells YOU to do, and how God tells you to continue reaching out to them… then DO IT…
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March 3, 2006 at 10:04 am
Jason, I agree with some parts of analysis but not with others. I think this is akin to a question that I have asked people in the past – why pray for faith? If faith comes by hearing the Word of God, does praying for it get you anywhere – based on the Biblical record. As Seni stated, praying just asking God to save someone may not be the most efficacious way to pray for someone. But I’m not completely convinced that as you stated, “Prayer does nothing. Only God does something.” (emphasis on nothing)
I think there is a factual distinction in the Abrahamic story already mentioned that you failed to take into account. You immediately gravitated to the spiritual vs. natural salvation and then to the end result. With regard to this situation, the end result doesn’t matter when you consider that God was moved to do something when Abraham prayed. I think this clearly shows that God is willing to do something based on the petitions that we ask. But it begs the question, is it in respect to the natural life being spared or the spiritual.
I think the answer to this question leads to the important distinction in what we ought to be praying with regard to salvation of souls. Yes, it was the natural life that Abraham was requesting salvation for, but an extension of that natural life provides added time for each of those persons to change their ways and effect their eternal destination. This speaks the to spiritual battle that Seni spoke of in her response and what I believe to be the proper focus of intercessory prayer for lost souls.
Although salvation is something the each individual must accept of his/her own free will, there are spiritual influences (e.g. delusions) that can block or hinder a person from receiving the truth of the Word. This individual may not understand the need or have the knowledge of how to fight the spiritual battle necessary to put him/her in the position to be able to accept. This was seen time and time again when Jesus would cast out demons from someone. The demon would know and acknowledge who Jesus was, but the individual was powerless to accept and follow him. Once the demon was cast out, the person would immediately accept and follow Christ. Was it a direct prayer for their eternal salvation, no, but it was a prayer for the circumstances preventing the individual that once mitigated allowed the individual to take the necessary steps to follow Christ.
Also, I think the beginning of your response actually made part of Seni’s point for her. You’re right that your initial post did not state that conversion was not a spiritual battle; her point was exactly that, you ignored or failed to include that portion of the process when making your point. As I have stated above, I think it is an important part of the process that cannot be severed from the discussion if there is going to be meaningful dialogue as to the nature and results of prayer in conversion process.
God bless
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March 3, 2006 at 10:48 am
Jevan,
You wrote, “[M]aybe we can’t pray ‘God save them’…but maybe we can pray that God would do more in that persons life to break their pride….humble them.” To make such a statement presupposes that God is not already working in their life to break their pride and humble them. It presupposes that God is not already doing all He can to break their pride, humble them, and bring them to the knowledge and acceptance of the truth.
Do we honestly believe God will be “motivated” to do more if we pray for person X to be saved? If that is so it seems to me that we are more concerned about the lost than God. If I remember correctly it was He who fought for the salvation of men all the way to His death, not us. Do we really believe that God is not giving 100% of His effort to save His own child? Do you have to prompt a parent of a missing child to look for that child? Not at all! You won’t be able to stop them from doing everything in their power to find their child and bring them home. If that is the case with human parents, how much more so with the Father of all? The “praying for the lost” view seems spiritually and rationally incredible to me! A God who requires me to ask Him to save someone before He gets more serious about their redemption is not the God I am familiar with in Scripture.
God is always doing all He can in the lives of the lost to bring them to salvation. He is working on their hearts, working on their minds, and bringing particular people into their lives. That is God’s part, and He is doing His job with 100% efficiency all the time. Where do we come in? Evangelism. The harvest is already ripe because God has ripened them. We don’t need to pray for the crops. What we need to pray for are the laborers so the crops God has readied for harvest can be harvested. God prepares, we preach, and the person decides.
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 10:57 am
SLR (who is this?),
Paul was not unclear on why we are to pray for kings (I Tim 3:1-2), so there really isn’t any room for the crops or health speculation (but that was funny!). He explicitly stated it was so “we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.”
You said, “Well, the directive is given in the following verse…pray that they have a good life… and that they live in “ALL reverence” to GOD… that sounds like PRAYING for a turn in their lives… if ALL includes the unsaved… and if then the unsaved are going to live in ALL reverence… wouldn’t that be pretty close to praying that the unsaved change from unsaved to saved?” The “we” are the Christians, the same people Paul was telling to do the praying. We are to pray for the governing authorities that they will lead in such a way that allows us to live a quite and peaceful life toward God with proper conduct. It does not include unbelievers.
In your second post you talked about the meeting with your friend. I don’t doubt that God brought him to you, but I do doubt that God would not have brought him to you had you not prayed for him. Why? Because I have good reason to believe that God is not trusting their salvation to whether you decide to pray for them. Is it a strange coincidence that you met him the day after you prayed? Yes. But maybe the reason you even thought to pray for Him was because God was putting Him in your mind in preparation for the meeting. I don’t know the mind of God, but that seems like something He might do.
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 11:18 am
I’ll bite on the “we” part of that vesre… but the “all” what are we supposed to pray for then… that they stay out of our way?
I’m sorry,… but every thing in me -tells me that we are to pray for the lost… perhaps I’ve been brainwashed…
but the “ALL”… is “all” whether in the body or not…
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March 3, 2006 at 11:24 am
take the seperation of verses out … 1Tim 2:1-2 … this is “all men” … including Kings … authority… this is not just the church… not just authority… it is clearly ALL men.. saved and lost…
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March 3, 2006 at 11:33 am
Andy,
When I said “Prayer does nothing. Only God does something,” my point was to correct a common way we talk about prayer. We talk about prayer having power, when it has no such thing at all. If there were no God to respond to our prayers we would just be talking. It is God who is powerful, not prayer. It is God who changes thing, not prayer. Prayer is merely the mechanism by which we ask the all-powerful God to do X.
In regards to Abraham, there is no question that God is willing to do something when we ask Him to. This is not a debate about whether God answers prayers. This is a debate as to whether God answers a particular kind of prayer. I argue that God does not answer prayers to save the lost for two reasons: (1) He will not override their free choice no matter how much He wants them to be saved and no matter how much we pray; (2) He can’t do anything more than He’s already doing in their lives.
Let me illuminate the latter point by way of example. I imagine you generally answer your wife’s requests when she asks you to do something for her. Sometimes, however, you cannot do so, not because you don’t want to, but because it’s not possible for you to do so. Let’s say you are running. You are running as fast as you can when your wife yells out from the sideline, “Honey, can you go a little faster please?!?!” Can you answer that request? No. Why? Because you are already running as fast as you can. You cannot increase anything to what you are already doing. You are already running at 100% of your ability.
The same goes with God when it comes to someone’s salvation. He is already doing everything He can. To say He does not answer our prayers to save the lost has nothing to do with His willingness to do something when we ask Him to, but His ability to do more than 100%. No one can give more than 100% effort (contra those deodorant commercials that say we can give 110%), not even God. Doing all you can is doing all you can. You can’t add anything to all.
You brought up praying against spiritual hindrances. I addressed this previously, but I’ll address it again. Why are you presuming that God is not already working on those whether you pray or not? To presume He is not working on those until after you pray presumes that God is not doing all He can to save the lost, and that you have to motivate Him to do more.
I don’t have a problem praying to God to extend the natural life of an unbeliever so they have more opportunity to be saved. I’ve done so myself. God can honor such a request because honoring that prayer does not require the unbeliever’s consent. If they are sick and dying God can heal them per your request whether they have faith or not.
You said, “Also, I think the beginning of your response actually made part of Seni’s point for her. You’re right that your initial post did not state that conversion was not a spiritual battle; her point was exactly that, you ignored or failed to include that portion of the process when making your point.” The way she worded it, it seemed to me she was saying I was focusing on the mental battle and ignoring the spiritual battle. My response to her pointed out that I ignored both of those aspects in my post because they were irrelevant. While it is true that there are mental and spiritual battles surrounding conversion, to say our prayers can “make” God address those issues in the unbeliever’s life presumes that God was not already doing so, a point that I argued against in my post. If God is already doing all He can to bring the person to salvation then He is already working on their mind and spirit, and my prayer for those things cannot add anything to what God is already doing.
So, yes, there are both mental and spiritual battles involved in conversion, but God does not need us to pray that He will help that person overcome them because God is already doing so before we even thought about it. To complete the work God is doing requires that we be there to proclaim the Gospel, answer their questions (mental battle), and deal with their spiritual battles (e.g. cast out demons). God is using us to complete the work He has already begun. We can pray for wisdom and power to perform those duties properly, but again, we’re back to praying for the laborer, not the harvest.
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 12:23 pm
SLR
I may be wrong in my position, but the position is not wrong because everything in you says it is. I could equally assert that everything in me says your position is wrong, but that doesn’t make it so. What we believe to be true should be determined by reason and evidence, not feelings. If we don’t have good reason to believe our position is true, but we do have good reason to believe another position is true, we have an intellectual obligation to follow the evidence even if our feelings tell us otherwise. Feelings are simply not a good guide to truth.
I agree that all means all in I Tim 2:1, but then Paul went on to talk about a specific group within that all. Paul continued to speak of that “all” when he said God “wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (I Tim 2:4). Is everyone saved? No. Why? Because God can’t make them accept the truth and be saved. If God can’t do that, then why are we praying for Him to do so? One will say, “I’m not. I know God will not override their will.” Then why are you praying? The only other reason I can think of is because you think more can be done to accomplish their salvation. And who do you want to do more? The person you are praying to? And to pray to Him to do more is to presume He is not doing all He can already, and I find that portrait of God to be unbiblical.
Can you identify yourself please? I would like to know who I am speaking with. Thanks!
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 12:24 pm
I get the feeling that some of you have mistaken my challenging of the appropriateness and effectiveness of “praying for the lost,” for a challenge of praying for others at all, or a challenge of the effectiveness of prayer in general. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no question that we can and should pray for others. There is no question that God can and does answer prayer. The issue at hand is very specific: Is there any Biblical or logical basis for “praying for the lost” to be saved? Prayer for someone’s salvation is very different from other prayers we might pray for unbelievers (such as healing, job situation, emotional, etc.) because salvation is the one thing that absolutely requires they consent to God’s work and fully surrender their will to Him. The same cannot be said of healing, or sparing them some temporal calamity.
Jason
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March 3, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Jason,
You said, “I never said conversion was solely a mental battle, nor that it was not a spiritual battle.” My response to this might seem childish at first, but please note that I am not trying to go tit-for-tat with you; I’m trying to make a point.
My response is that I didn’t say you said that! (In fact, as Andy pointed out: I said you ignored the issue.) When I said “It’s not solely a mental battle, and intercessory prayer is a spiritual weapon,” I was making a point relevant to the topic. I didn’t say it because I thought you specifically said the opposite.
I take the time to address this because you often respond with “I never said that” or “I didn’t say that.” And I think it unjustly discredits my (or others’) comments. Not everything I say has to be in direct retaliation against something you specifically said in order to be relevant to the subject matter.
You said, “Those categories were not even brought up in my post.But for the sake of addressing your point I would agree that it is both a mental and a spiritual battle.” It sounds like your answering me out of the kindness of your heart even though you think I’m off topic. As Andy said, the spiritual warfare involved in conversion cannot be severed from the topic of whether or not we should pray for the lost.
And since you said you do agree that it is a spiritual battle, how do you suggest we fight this spiritual battle outside of prayer?
Some of your responses to my points were good, and I’ll have to chew on them a while. But I do disagree strongly with your statment “Prayer does nothing. Only God does something.” I do believe prayer moves the hand of God. (In fact you said you agreed with me that prayer affects the natural in a supernatural way.)
God does repent and relent and change His mind when we pray. God is bound by His Word. When we pray the Word, He acts. God is angry with sinners and we can stand in the gap on their behalf.
If prayer does nothing, why did Jesus pray and teach us to pray? Jesus told Peter, “Satan has desired to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith will not fail, and when you’re converted strengthen they bretheren.” (That’s SMV: Seni’s Memory Version.) So, even Jesus prayed for a person’s faith and conversion against the spiritual forces of Satan.
You said that God is already working to save the lost, whether or not we pray. If God does as He wills whether or not we pray, then why pray at all about anything? Should we restrict prayer to worship exclusively? After all, He knows what we have need of before we ask. And He’s always working for my good because I love Him.
You close by saying, “Could I be wrong in that? Yes, but you would have to show me Biblically or logically how.” Again, I feel this an unjust dismissal of my comments that you’ve used before. First of all, that’s what I tried to do: I used Scripture and logic; I just failed to convince you. Second, you seem to think that you are right unless I can convince you you’re wrong. Being convinced of your conclusions doesn’t make them right.
That’s faulty logic. You can’t claim to be right unless and until someone shows you you’re wrong. The obvious reasons are 1)that it’s possible someone can prove you wrong, and you still don’t think you’re wrong, and 2) if and when you are proven wrong, it doesn’t mean you were right all along up to that point. I guess I could say, 3) with a topic like this we won’t know whether you’re right or wrong this side of heaven.
Anyway, I believe we should pray for the lost, not because I might be brainwashed as slr thinks he/she might be. I’m convinced because of my experiences with intercessory prayer. I don’t know who slr is, but perhaps experience is also the reason he/she feels we must pray for the lost to be saved.
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March 3, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I must have sent my comment at the same time Jason sent his. When I was responding, there were only 15 messages, and when I posted it, there were 19. So, my comment comes after Jason’s and appears to bring up things Jason just attempted to answer. Sorry for the confusion everyone.
On a side note, I liked email better.
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March 3, 2006 at 4:54 pm
We must be very careful to base our beliefs on the Bible and good reason, not just our experience. Personal experience is used by all sorts of people to justify whacky beliefs for which they have no support. For example, I was at the Mormon church the other day doing genealogical research. A Mormon man was talking to a non-Mormon about how he knows the Mormon religion to be the true religion because he had an angel appear to him and tell him so. Mohammed claimed the same thing. They have opposing experiences. Who is right? Persoanl experience will not give us the answer.
This highlights why it is so important that we use Scripture as our authority when we are discussing topics such as this. I could have an experience where every person I prayed to God to save died without salvation, or I could have an experience where some of the people I prayed for became saved. But in either case how would I know whether the outcome of their lives had anything to do with my prayers? There is not a 1:1 correlation between praying for someone to be saved and them becoming saved, so when someone happens to be saved whom I prayed for how do I know it was due to my prayer, especially if the Word of God does not tell me that prayer for the lost is something I should be engaging in?
I would rather be safe and side the Word of God than side with what Joe Blow says he experienced, or even what I have experienced. I don’t think God simply failed to mention that we are to pray for the lost to be saved when the Bible was written. It’s not in there because there is no reason to do it.
Lysa
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March 4, 2006 at 12:00 pm
My family arrived in town last night, so I will not be posting anything for a couple of days.
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March 4, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Jason,
Wow! You sure know how to “open a can.”=) I choose not take your post as a discouragement to those who pray for the lost. I do, however, see it as a challenge to be more specific in prayer. (Hope I’m not taking this off course)
I do believe prayer to be one of several mighty weapons that helps bring about favorable conditions to souls being saved (casting down imaginations, etc).
However, I am also convinced that we too often employ the methods of “lazy praying.” (ex. “God bless Africa!”)
This type of praying in itself fails to reap any results. But I can get more specific, such as “Lord, bless Sudan, topple the government regime that opposes the message of Christ, tear down strongholds and mindsets that keep the people in bondage, send full and part-time missionaries, raise up native pastors, send bibles, let the Word have free course, etc.” I consider ALL of these as intercessory prayers for the lost.
Praying to the Lord of the harvest, “to send forth laborers,” is also a prayer for the lost. The end is for souls to be saved. The means is through prayer for laborers. Can God send laborers without us praying for them. Sure. But we are still commanded to pray. Is all prayer for the lost ineffective? No. Though perhaps how we pray most of the time is.
Finally, Jason I agree we “pray amiss” when it comes to revival. I consider praying for revival as praying for US (the saints). This is so that we will relinquish unnecessary attachments, and participate in personal evangelism, (whatever that means for each individual). Even this, however, has souls as the end of the means. Your post was great, Jason, and challenged me to re-examine how I pray! Thanks.
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March 7, 2006 at 11:13 am
Hi, Lysa. Long time no see–HA! 🙂
You said, “We must be very careful to base our beliefs on the Bible and good reason, not just our experience.” I agree with you.I did give many biblical and rationale reasons for why I believe in intercessory prayer, as well, and did not base my argument 100% on experience. Your response focuses solely on my closing paragraph of my second post.
Nontheless, we can’t ignore the fact that experience is a significant way we all come to conclusions about many things. If you try something–anything, stain remover on clothing for example—and it works more often than not, you can safely conclude that it’s worthy of your time and use.
There does not have to be a 1-to-1 correlation in experience to reach a conclusion, unless your conclusion is that it works EVERY SINGLE time, which I did not conclude. (The caps are for emphasis, not to scream—sorry, I don’t know how to italicize on the e-blog!)
In most instances, a majority will suffice. After all, there is not a 1:1 ratio between the people I witness to and the people who accept Christ, yet no one advocates we stop witnessing.
Your example of your Mormon friend experiencing an angel is a good example for your statement that “Personal experience is used by all sorts of people to justify whacky beliefs for which they have no support.” However, it is not applicable to my believing in intercessory prayer. The experiences the Mormon and the Muslim had and believe in are in direct conflict with Galatians 1:8: even if an angel gives you any other gospel, let him be accursed (that’s Seni’s Memory Version again).
But here everyone agrees that there is no harm in praying for the lost. The Bible doesn’t warn us against the evils of interceding for the lost! You have come to a very strong conviction over something you believe the Bible leaves out, as if it is something the Bible specifically warns against.
Also everyone agrees that there is a spiritual battle at play when it comes to conversion. I believe, with biblical and rationale support, as well as through experience, that intercessory prayer for the lost plays a crucial role in the spiritual battle for their salvation.
In my experience the majority of people I witness to and intercede for are saved, and zero people I only witness to but don’t pray for are saved. That experience coupled with the Biblical and rationale reasons I’ve already mentioned in previous posts, lead to me to a safe conclusion that intercessory prayer is worthy of my time and effort.
I made it clear from the onset that I don’t think prayer alone is enough; we need to share the gospel too. Intercessory prayer should be done in addition to witnessing, and neither are very effective exclusive from one another.
You also said, “I don’t think God simply failed to mention that we are to pray for the lost to be saved when the Bible was written. It’s not in there because there is no reason to do it.” Again, that’s a pretty significant conclusion to come to just because the Bible doesn’t specifically say “pray for the lost.” The Bible doesn’t specifically say in exact words a lot of things we believe, and yet there is undoubtedly biblical support and good reason for our beliefs.
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March 8, 2006 at 7:42 am
You had said, “I feel the post ignores the spiritual component to why people reject the Gospel. It’s not solely a mental battle, and intercessory prayer is a spiritual weapon.” To say “it’s not SOLELY a mental battle” is the language one would use when they are issuing a corrective to one’s overemphasis of some point, not to make a new point.
Furthermore, when you start off by saying I ignored the spiritual components of the issue, and then immediately contrast the intellectual from the spiritual, saying it’s not SOLEY an intellectual issue, it sends the message that I was limiting my discourse to the intellectual whereas you were broadening it to the spiritual. That is why I responded the way I did.
You said, “I take the time to address this because you often respond with ‘I never said that’ or ‘I didn’t say that.’ And I think it unjustly discredits my (or others’) comments.” If I did not say something then I did not say it. If someone wants to argue against a point I did not make as if I had made it, I should not be faulted for pointing that fact out to them. You (general “you”) can argue with what I actually said all you like, but when you begin arguing against something I did not say and do not believe I cannot do anything other than say, “I did not say that.” What would you have me to do? Begin to believe what you think I believe so I can argue the point with you?
I said, “Those categories were not even brought up in my post. But for the sake of addressing your point I would agree that it is both a mental and a spiritual battle.” You responded, “It sounds like your answering me out of the kindness of your heart even though you think I’m off topic.” In my judgment your comments were off-topic because my argument had nothing to do with the balance of the intellectual and spiritual elements involved in conversion (which is what it sounded like you were talking about), but since it was brought up I wanted to make sure you knew my position on the balance between those two elements, particularly because it seemed to me that you were implying that I was arguing conversion was solely a mental issue.
How do we fight the spiritual battle involved in conversion outside of prayer? That depends on what kind of spiritual battle it is. If it is a battle within the person’s own spirit of surrendering to God or continuing to be the lord of their own life I don’t think there is anything we can do because that battle is determined by the individual’s will, and we are powerless to change it (other than giving them the information they need to make an informed decision). If you are talking about battles with demonic spirits then we should cast the devils out of them when we encounter them.
If your question is more general, as in “If we shouldn’t pray for the lost, what should we do?” then I would say we can do the following three things: (1) prepare ourselves spiritually in prayer, and intellectually through knowledge of God’s Word and knowledge sufficient to provide an answer to those who ask us why we have the hope we do [Col 4:6; I Pet 3:15]; (2) preach the Gospel; (3) pray for ourselves and other laborers that doors of opportunity to preach the Gospel will open, and that we will have wisdom and boldness to speak the Word as we ought to [Luke 10:2; Acts 4:29; Eph 6:18-19; Col 4:3; II Thes 3:1].
I already explained my point in saying “prayer does nothing. Only God does something” in my response to Andy, but I will address it again. The way you were talking about prayer made it sound as though prayer itself does the things you named, not God. The emphasis just seemed wrong. This is a pet-peeve of mine and I took the opportunity to address it. Prayer no more does something than putting a key in the car does something, in the ultimate sense. It’s not the key that starts the car, and it’s not prayer that heals the sick; it’s the parts of the engine that start the car, and it’s God that heals the sick. Prayer is simply the means of making the request in the same way the key is merely the means of making the engine parts do what they are supposed to do (start the car). Prayer is effective, not because of the act of prayer, but because of the person to whom our prayers are directed. God is powerful and cares enough about our needs and desires to answer our requests of Him.
If I ask the President to designate March 7 as Jason Dulle Day and he does so, I would not say, “There is power in asking.” I would say, “The President has a lot of power.” Asking God to do so is merely the means by which we express our desires. People, not requests, have power.
My point, then, was that it is God who does the things you named (not prayer), and my argument was that God is already doing those things because God is actively pursuing every individual to the greatest extent possible. He doesn’t need you to motivate Him to seek His own anymore than human parents need people to motivate them to seek their lost children. They exhaust all of their energies and efforts to find them whether anyone helps them or not. Even more so with the Father of all.
Yes, at times God does choose different courses of action in response to our prayers. That fact has never been in question. What has been in question is whether God can do anything more than He is already doing to bring the lost to salvation. I have argued that He cannot. The burden of proof is on those who believe God is not doing all He can to save the lost, but then does more in response to your prayer. That sort of half-hearted effort is not consistent with the God of Scripture.
You said, “God is angry with sinners and we can stand in the gap on their behalf.” Where does the Bible teach this? I dealt specifically with this concept in my original post, citing every place in Scripture I could find that talks about intercession—none of which involved one human interceding to God for the salvation of another.
You mentioned the time when Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith—that it would not fail when he was tempted by Satan (Luke 22:31-32). Peter already had faith in God/Christ. While he was not yet born again, he was in a “saved status” under the old dispensation. So Jesus was not praying for Peter to be saved. He was praying that his faith in God would be able to withstand the temptations of Satan. That is a prayer for spiritual strength for the saved, and Biblical.
You asked, “You said that God is already working to save the lost, whether or not we pray. If God does as He wills whether or not we pray, then why pray at all about anything?” You are moving from my very specific question about the efficacy of prayer for the lost to the general question about the efficacy of prayer in general. There is no question that God answers prayer, and does some things only in response to our prayers. I do not believe God does as He wills whether we ask Him to or not. Of course He is sovereign, so there are some things He does because He wants to whether we ask Him to or not, but there are other things He does only in response to prayer. The question is whether or not God’s level of activity among the lost to bring them to salvation depends on whether we pray for them, or if He is doing all He can do irrespective of our prayers.
I said, “Could I be wrong in that? Yes, but you would have to show me Biblically or logically how.” You responded, “Again, I feel this an unjust dismissal of my comments that you’ve used before. First of all, that’s what I tried to do: I used Scripture and logic; I just failed to convince you. Second, you seem to think that you are right unless I can convince you you’re wrong. Being convinced of your conclusions doesn’t make them right.” How is my statement a dismissal? I am stating that I could be in error even though I have no reason at present to believe I am. By saying what I said am I implying you are wrong and your counter-arguments are unpersuasive? Absolutely! What’s so strange about that? We both think the other is wrong.
Just because people offer a counter-argument does not mean they have upended your position. The counter-argument must deal directly with the original argument, and demonstrate convincingly that it upends the original argument. I don’t think your arguments have done so. You have been comparing prayers for temporal matters that do not require the consent of the individual, to prayers for eternal salvation that do require the consent of the individual. Furthermore, you have not given me any reason to believe that God is not already doing everything He can to save the lost. Please show me somewhere in the Bible where God is only exerting 70% effort to reach the lost, and then increases His effort in response to prayer, or give me a logical reason to believe this, and I will yell “I was wrong!!!” from the housetops. Until then I’m not convinced.
You said, “That’s faulty logic. You can’t claim to be right unless and until someone shows you you’re wrong. The obvious reasons are 1) that it’s possible someone can prove you wrong, and you still don’t think you’re wrong, and 2) if and when you are proven wrong, it doesn’t mean you were right all along up to that point.”
I’m not claiming to be right until someone shows me I’m wrong, as if my believing myself to be right makes my position true in the interim. No, I am claiming to think I am right, and to be epistemically justified in believing myself to be right, and will maintain that belief until someone can show me otherwise. Whether I am presently right or wrong is determined by reality, not my belief and not yours. Determining what that reality is is the task we are currently engaging ourselves in, and I believe there is good reason to believe reality is the way I am describing it, not you. Since most knowledge is contingent, I could be wrong, and thus I set forth the conditions on which I would change my mind.
No, it is not possible for someone to prove me wrong and yet I still think myself right. First, just because one may think they have proven me wrong does not mean they actually have, for a variety of reasons. If I argue that the Earth is round, and someone counters that it is flat because the horizon shows it to be flat they have not proven me wrong, even though they have offered a counter-argument. Proving someone wrong requires that the counter-arguments adequately address the original arguments, and sufficiently demonstrate them to be unlikely and/or false. Counter-arguments themselves can even be shown to be invalid. So merely offering a counter-argument does not prove anything.
Secondly, to say I have been proven wrong would mean I recognize that my position is in error. And while it is true that one who has been proven wrong may not want to admit that he is wrong, nonetheless he must think he is wrong. And I would hope that you think better of me than to believe I would see I am in error, and yet refuse to acknowledge it.
The problem with experience is that there are competing experiences (and the fact that they are subjective and open to various interpretations). My experience is the opposite of yours. I have prayed for many people to be saved, and I can only think of one who is saved. Should I use my experience, then, to conclude that prayer for the lost does not affect the lost? No. But what if I did? All we would have is your experience pitted against my experience, with no way of telling whose is valid. That’s why a higher authority than experience must arbitrate this issue: Scripture, reason. Those are the resources I have turned to, and both of them comport with my experience.
Jason
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March 8, 2006 at 7:43 am
Seni,
You asked, “How do you suggest we fight this spiritual battle outside of prayer?” We need to “go” like Jesus told us to, and preach the Gospel to the lost. There are people who are lost and will never accept God, and there are people who are lost waiting to be found. We need to spend our time focusing on the harvest that is already ripe.
Some of our loved ones that are not saved right now are not hungry right now (sad but painfully true), and yet we spend so much of our resources praying for them and begging them to come to God when there are a whole lot of folks that are hungry and ready to be harvested all around us. It seems many of us—including myself—are so consumed with seeing our family members saved that we neglect the harvest that is ripe and ready. I find myself so often consumed with my unsaved loved ones that I neglect the ripe harvest around me. I think God is saying, “I have prepared a field in your back yard containing fruit that’s ripe and ready to be harvested, but you are spending all your energies trying to gather fruit from trees that are not yet ripe, and some that are even dead.” Revival is there, we just need to harvest it.
What we need to be doing is what Jesus told us to do: pray for the laborers. We need to pray for more laborers. We should pray that God will lead us to those who are already hungry; those whom He has already ripened and are only waiting for a laborer to harvest them by preaching the Gospel to them.
We can also pray that God will spare a lost soul’s life from premature death so as to afford him more time to make a choice for God, but to pray for God to save Joe Blow from going to hell is not found in Scripture, because God will not override his free will.
Lysa
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March 8, 2006 at 7:44 am
Seni,
A few years ago I had a “revelation” about this. I have always thought that if I prayed for someone enough they would be saved. I did not realize that that person alone chooses their destiny. But a few years ago when a backslider (whose extended family were all in church, and prayed continuously for her) died in a car accident, I realized that we are powerless to change someone’s will, no matter how many prayers we say for them. This knowledge was both devastating and liberating. It was devastating in the sense that I now realized I had no control over the salvation of my loved ones whom I desperately want to see saved. The reason I, and most people, pray for the lost to be saved is because we like to believe our prayers will play a part in determining their ultimate destiny. It makes us feel like we have some control. Recognizing that we cannot control their will makes us feel powerless because we cannot do anything to stop them from their own self-destruction, and I did not like that feeling of powerlessness.
It was liberating in the sense that I no longer felt responsible for their eternal destiny. I really believed that if they ended up in hell it was because I did not pray enough, and that if they were saved it was in part due to my prayers. I thought salvation rested partly in their hands and partly in mine. The weight of such a responsibility is emotionally taxing. When I finally came to recognize that they are fully responsible for the way they respond to the Gospel when I preach it to them, and that I cannot do anything to change their will, it freed me up. I no longer feel responsible for the way they respond to the Gospel, and I no longer feel responsible for their eternal destiny. I have done my part in preaching the Gospel to them; what they do with it is their responsibility.
To say our prayers can affect someone’s eternal destiny is a double-edged sword, because while it allows us to take some credit when they accept Christ, it also places some blame on us when they do not. While people often take the credit for praying for someone who accepts Christ, rarely will you meet someone who will take the blame for the person who goes to hell. If they become saved, it was because of our prayers; if they end up lost, we couldn’t do anything about it because they chose their own destiny. We want to take credit for the good outcome, but blame the bad outcome on their free will. If a person’s free will is to blame for their rejection of God in spite of your prayers, then their free will is responsible for their acceptance of God apart from your prayers. Free will is determinative.
To say prayer for the lost can increase their chances of being saved implies that those who die without God may have died in such a state because we did not pray for them enough. I preached the Gospel to my uncle, and prayed for him to be saved. Unfortunately, he died six years ago without salvation. Are you telling me I did not do enough by obeying the Great Commission and preaching the Gospel to him? Are you telling me that he may be in hell right now because I did not pray enough for him? Are you telling me that if I had only prayed for his soul five more minutes a day he might be in heaven right now? Are you telling me I am responsible, in part, for where he is spending eternity? This would logically follow from your view. Are you prepared to answer these questions in the affirmative, causing severe guilt in believers, and adding to the already difficult issue of dealing with their death, and the knowledge that they are in hell? Your view has severe ramifications. Are you prepared to own up to the negative ones, as well as the positive ones?
Lysa
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March 8, 2006 at 7:46 am
Seni,
In response to your 03/07 post at 10:13 a.m.:
I don’t dismiss experience. It has its place. It’s just that it’s not determinative.
You argued that there does not have to be a 1:1 correlation between those we pray for, and those who are saved before we can conclude that prayer is effective for helping people be saved, in the same manner that we don’t have to have a 1:1 correlation between those we witness to, and those who are saved before we can conclude that preaching is effective for helping people to be saved. I agree that we do not need a 1:1 correlation, but the difference between these two is that the Scripture tells us that preaching the Gospel is the vehicle by which people are saved, but the same is not said of prayer.
You said the different angel experiences between the Mormons and the Muslims is not applicable to your believing in intercessory prayer because their experience contradicts the Bible. But your experience contradicts their scripture. Who is to say whose scriptures are right, and whose scriptures should serve as the test for various experiences? Another experience? Furthermore, your experience is not found in the Bible. Besides, my point was only that people have competing experiences, so we can’t use experience alone to determine what is true and what is false. Other sources of knowledge are required to determine the truth.
Actually, harm can come from the idea that our prayers affect the eternal destiny of man. Jason addressed that last week, and I addressed it in an earlier post today (that you probably just read).
You wrote, “In my experience the majority of people I witness to and intercede for are saved, and zero people I only witness to but don’t pray for are saved.” Are you saying that preaching the Gospel is not enough to save someone? It sure sounds like it. That is a pretty strong conclusion, and one for which you will find no Biblical support. You yourself said the Word will not return void. It is the Word of God that is alive, and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, able to penetrate to the dividing of soul and spirit, and joints and marrow, being a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The Gospel is wholly adequate in itself to save the lost. Its ability to save is not dependent on prayer being added to it.
If you really believe it takes prayer and the Gospel to save people, why would you ever witness to someone without praying for them? That’s only doing half the job in your view, making you partly responsible for them not coming to Christ. You could have done more and yet you didn’t according to your view.
You said the MAJORITY of people you witness to and pray for are saved. Are you being serious? The best of the best evangelists don’t have a 50% success rate. If you do better than 50% you need to be an evangelist, not a lawyer.
Yes, you are right that there are things we believe that are not taught in Scripture, because we have good reasons to believe them and they are consistent with Scripture. The reason I believe praying for the lost is not effective is not just because Scripture does not say it is, but because the concept is not consistent with what Scripture does say, and not consistent with reason.
Lysa
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March 8, 2006 at 9:45 am
Jason,
I’ve been reading your analysis of prayer and have become somewhat concerned about your comments. The most troubling to me is your continued rationale that God is doing 100% already in order for people to be saved as a logical basis for not praying for the salvation of the lost. I have already given my reasons for not praying directly for salvation (which essentially links the passage of scripture that says, “you receive not because you ask amiss” – AMV [Andy Memory Version] – If Seni can do it so can I). But to pose my concern to you in a logical fashion I’ll provide you with some syllogisms based on your previous posts to help illustrate the problem I have with your logic.
The only part I have not included in the syllogisms is you comment that prayer is effectual in areas of healing, strengthing believers, and provision of needs. So we’ll view the syllogisms with that understanding. Here they are:
Syllogism 1
The all-powerful God is doing 100% of what He can to save the lost;
Prayer requests God to do more than He is already doing;
Therefore, prayer is requesting God to do more 100% of what he can to save the lost.
Syllogism 2
100% is the most that any being can do in any situation;
Prayer is requesting God to do more that 100% of what he can to save the lost;
Therefore; prayer is ineffective because God cannot do more than 100%.
Based on these two syllogisms I have proposed one the uses this logic to make a determination of prayer in general as a natural extension of that logic.
Syllogism 3
Prayer for healing, strengthening, providing of needs is asking God to do more for us in those areas;
Prayer can be effective in those areas;
Therefore, God is doing less than 100% for us in those areas until we pray for them.
I think everyone reading it would agree that the conclusion of the last syllogism is a preposterous assumption. Therefore, I think we can conclude from this one or more of three things: 1) my last syllogism contains a false premise, 2) the logic fails, or 3) we’re using the wrong logic to try and determine how prayer works. I think 2 and 3 are the most realistic of the conclusions that we can come to from this.
Although prayer for lost souls is a request to affect the will of an individual, the fact that God is already doing 100% to save them is not the best way to logically prove that point.
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March 8, 2006 at 11:00 am
Dulle:
Good post and I agree for the most part, although I have not deduced the argument as you. Would this idea, however, work closely with predestination (double)? I am not a Calvinist however to suggest that prayer is not needed, in some sense, to intervene on the behalf of the lost could suggest that if God will save them then He will in His time. IMO, that could sound like Calvinistic nuances. I may be wrong, just wondering. What say ye?
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March 8, 2006 at 11:01 am
Sorry, the previous post is mine. I did not mean to comment anonymously.
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March 8, 2006 at 11:13 am
Hey, Lysa, wait up!!! You’ve bombarded me with posts! LOL!
I logged on to say it will be a little while before I continue posting. Today and tomorrow are my last two days at this job, and I MUST finish the stuff on my desk! After that I’ll have a week off before starting my new job…As an evangelist! LOL! J/K!:)
Seriously, though, I am moving on (thank you, Jesus!). So, I won’t be posting for the next couple of days or so. In the meantime, see you at church!
Love,
Seni
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March 8, 2006 at 1:57 pm
This topic has made me think through the way I pray.
Ok – Remove the words “to be saved.” The saved part negates free will.
We still ought to pray for the “Lost” – Gospel to reach the Lost,laborers in the harvest field, anointing on the laborers,
improved witness to the lost. I can also pray for the “Lost of Bellflower.” I am just summarizing my prayers. Does God not answer if we are to general ? Then lets pray specifically and generally. In any case, we can create a positive or negative atmosphere that does have an impact on the choice of the Lost.
Jason you said,
God is actively engaged in their lives in attempt to bring them to salvation whether I pray for them or not.” I assume you are referring to unbelievers. Yes, God has given His all and provided the Way for Salvation. However, I don’t see God actively engaged in lives to bring salvation (if the believer does nothing). If that were true, He wouldn’t need us to do anything.
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March 9, 2006 at 10:57 am
Andy,
I agree with the first two syllogisms, but not the third. It errs because you are taking the logic of the first two syllogisms—a logic that applies to a very unique situation—and applying it to everything other than that situation. I have never claimed that this logic applies to prayer in general, but to a very specific prayer: the salvation of the lost. The reason that particular prayer is different from all others is because salvation is the one thing that absolutely requires the consent of the individual. God does not need someone’s consent to heal them, to bless them financially, or a host of other things. He can do so out of His sovereign will, or He can do so because you asked Him to and you had faith. But salvation is different.
I don’t believe God is doing all He can to heal all the people in the world. I don’t believe God is doing all He can to help you financially (not that I think you need it), or a whole host of other matters. The only thing I believe God is doing all He can do apart from our prayers is trying to save the lost. Whether you get a particular job or have your health are not eternal concerns. If you want them, and you pray for them, God may decide to act in your behalf. But God is not going to wait on you to try to save His lost children.
If your children were about to walk off of a cliff, would you wait for a bystander to ask you to save them before you gave 100% of your effort to do so? Then why in the world would you think God is not doing all He can to save His own children? Nobody prayed for God to become a man and die at Calvary. He determined to do it before the foundation of the world. Why? Because He loves us so much and would do anything to spare us from judgment. To think that a God who would give His all to save us is now only working part-time on the hearts of the lost until you pray for them is (in my opinion) sub-Christian and offensive.
Jason
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March 9, 2006 at 11:04 am
Sabellius,
Welcome to the forum.
No, my argument is not at all connected with Calvinism. It is quite the opposite. I argue that people have the freedom of will to choose God when God extends His grace to them, enabling them to do so. They can choose to accept or reject His offer of grace.
It is because God honors our free will that our prayers for the lost cannot be effective. Think about it. If one’s salvation requires that they freely change of their will, and we know God cannot make someone freely change their will, then how could God answer our prayers? Some reason that while God won’t change their will, He can influence their will. I have no question that God is involved in influencing people’s wills towards salvation. But to think that we need to pray to God for Him to do so presupposes that He is not already doing so. It presupposes that God is not doing all He can to save the lost, but is waiting on us to ask Him to do more for the lost before He kicks it into high gear, if you will. I find that notion entirely at odds with Scripture.
Jason
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March 9, 2006 at 11:40 am
David,
If you remove the words “to be saved” from the title “why pray for the lost to be saved” we have an entirely different discussion, and I have entirely different things to say. In fact, I have addressed what kind of prayers we can pray for reaching the lost, apart from praying for the lost to be saved. I discussed them in my latest post to Seni. Since it was a long post they might have been missed, so I will repost my comments here:
“If your question is more general, as in “If we shouldn’t pray for the lost, what should we do?” then I would say we can do the following three things: (1) prepare ourselves spiritually in prayer, and intellectually through knowledge of God’s Word and knowledge sufficient to provide an answer to those who ask us why we have the hope we do [Col 4:6; I Pet 3:15]; (2) preach the Gospel; (3) pray for ourselves and other laborers that doors of opportunity to preach the Gospel will open, and that we will have wisdom and boldness to speak the Word as we ought to [Luke 10:2; Acts 4:29; Eph 6:18-19; Col 4:3; II Thes 3:1].”
So I agree with you when you say we should pray for the laborers, and pray that they be anointed to preach the Gospel. But I don’t agree that our prayers for the lost “can create a positive or negative atmosphere that does have an impact on the choice of the Lost.” Why? Because God is already working all He can on their heart, and you can’t do more than “all.” The fact that God is doing all He can do to ripen the unbeliever does not mean He doesn’t need us to do anything. He needs us to do the one thing He told us to do: preach the Gospel. Unfortunately we spend more time praying for the lost to be saved (which the Bible never tells us to do) than we do preaching the Gospel to the lost (which is the one thing the Bible clearly tells us to do). Our job is to pray for ourselves to be effective laborers, and be prepared to preach the Gospel to those whom the Lord has prepared to be receptive to the Gospel.
Jason
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March 9, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Dulle:
Thanks for your post, I see how it greatly emphasizes free-will. I believe I understand it more clearly now as God offers salvation yet it is our choice to elect to salvation, apart from a concerned person praying for God to “get it in high gear” and do something to make a person repent. Logical.
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March 9, 2006 at 11:12 pm
Dulle:
Would you say it apropos to pray that the will of an individual be changed, or that his/her heart be tendered, or etc so that they may heed the tuggings of a loving Savior?
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March 10, 2006 at 9:37 am
Everyone,
There are many passages in Scripture where we see God influencing the will of man—
sometimes in a negative way, and sometimes in a positive way—all of which were sovereign acts of God, and none of which were responses to man’s prayers. Note the following:
Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Deut 2:30-33 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. 31 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
Josh 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
2 Chr 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
See also I Kings 11:11-14, 23; I Chron 5:25-26; II Chron 15:5-6; 25:16-20
If in every case where we see God working on the heart of man to influence their will not one of them involved the prayers of human beings, why should we believe God’s work on man’s heart to bring him to salvation requires the prayers of human beings? No one prayed to God to open Lydia’s heart so that she would be receptive to the Word of God. God opened her heart as an act of His will and grace. Paul was simply there to preach the Gospel and Jesus instructed Him to do. God prepares the hearts of men entirely on His own, without our help. The only thing He asks us to do is preach the Gospel, so that those whose hearts He has been preparing can be reaped for the kingdom.
Jason
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March 10, 2006 at 10:00 am
Jesus said, “The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.” (Luke 10:2)
A few things should be noted from this passage. First, the harvest was already ripe, and its ripeness had nothing to do with the laborers. The ripening of the harvest was God’s business, and it predated the activity of the laborers. It is God who is responsible for preparing the hearts of men to be receptive to the Gospel. The only thing He has asked us to do is present the Gospel to those whom He has ripened to hear it, so that they can make a decision for or against Christ. The preaching of the Gospel is the sickle that reaps the harvest.
Secondly, the harvest is already plentiful. We pray for the lost to be saved as if there is a shortage of people who want to be saved, and our prayers are necessary to increase that number, so that when we preach the Gospel there will be people who will believe it. According to Jesus the problem is not with the number of those who want to be saved, but with the number of laborers to harvest all the people who want to be saved. Rather than praying for the lost—that God would work on their hearts so they will want to be saved—we should be praying for God to send out more laborers to reach the ripened hearts He has already prepared to hear the message of the Gospel.
According to Jesus the fruit is already ripe, just waiting to be picked, and yet we pray for God to ripen the fruit? I don’t get it. If there was a cherry tree in your back yard that was ripe with fruit, just waiting to be plucked, would you pray that God ripen your cherries? No, you would spend your time picking the abundance of cherries God has already ripened for you. The same goes for the lost. The people are already there to harvest. We simply need to heed the Great Commission to “go and preach,” rather than the fictional commission to “stay and pray.”
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March 10, 2006 at 10:07 am
James,
Welcome to the blog.
No, I don’t think it is efficacious to pray that the will of an individual be changed because God cannot change their will. He can influence their will, but not change it.
I don’t think it is efficacious to pray that the heart of an individual be softened either, because God would already be doing all He can do in that department, and one can’t do more than “all.” Whether the person submits to God’s tugging on their heart, mind, and will is entirely up to that person. We can only hope that they will submit to God’s grace and love.
Jason
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March 10, 2006 at 11:38 am
Dulle:
Concerning the Harvest and Luke 10:2, we are saying that prayers for the lost is not necessary because God is doing all that He should, not can, to influence the will of an individual to turn to Him. However, with such a premise how does that follow that God would need us to pray that HE send forth more laborers into the Harvest Field?
You wrote, “we should be praying for God to send out more laborers to reach the ripened hearts He has already prepared to hear the message of the Gospel.” It seems we may be becoming circular here because if we pray for God to send out more laborers then this implication may make some assumptives:
1. God is not doing “all” by not sending, therefore needs our prayers.
2. God may have to override someone’s will to be sent.
In addition, as stated, the Bible does not really tell us to pray for the lost, point taken. However, is this a proper premise for this argument? Could that end up circular as well?
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March 10, 2006 at 1:44 pm
It’s evident that the bible does not specifically say, “Pray for The Lost.” However, I think it’s important to consider the intent of the heart and not just the words alone. The intent is that God would use me or anyone to reach out with the Gospel to the unbeliever. Ultimately, I hope that person would choose Christ, believe, get baptized, receive the Holy Ghost,Take up His cross,etc. Praying for the lost is asking for God’s provision in all these things. I don’t see where (biblically) God is doing all He can in an unbelievers life. Please send supporting scriptures. I do believe He is doing all He can through born again believers.
You said,
“I don’t have a problem praying to God to extend the natural life of an unbeliever so they have more opportunity to be saved.” Isn’t this praying for the Lost and ultimately for a lost person to be saved ?? We are not solely praying for their healing, but healing so they might be saved. The difference is between a general prayer and a more specific one.
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March 13, 2006 at 12:33 pm
Hi, Lysa. I finally read all your posts in response to me.
First of all, let me clarify my significant success in “witnessing” to people. I often talk about church and invite people to church; I don’t count that as witnessing. I also talk about Jesus and share testimonies—I do consider that a form of witnessing, and NO, the majority of people I witness to in this manner are not saved. But when I said the majority of people I witness to is saved, I meant the majority of people I actually share the Gospel and plan of salvation with is saved. The only time I actually “preach” to the lost for purpose of their salvation is in Bible studies. And yes, the overwhelming majority of people that I have taught home bible studies to and prayed earnestly for were saved. The last three Bible studies I gave were not successful, and I feel in part because I did not fight the battle on my knees. I was too caught up in my big, bad self, and to confident in my ability to teach, that I neglected the spiritual warfare. In other words, giving Bible studies became routine, and I neglected to intercede.
Am I ultimately responsible for their salvation? No. Jesus paid the price, and they understand what they must do to accept salvation; on judgment day they will stand alone. But there is a spiritual battle for their soul that they are ill-equipped to fight themselves, and I neglected it. On judgment day, will I have to give an account? I think I would, and I thank God for the blood.
So, yes, I do feel partly responsible for not waging the spiritual battle. It’s not that I didn’t ever utter a word of prayer for them; it’s that I didn’t spend the time travailing and interceding for their lost soul. It might have made all the difference in the world in their ultimate decision.
Second, you seem to go on a rage as if I’m holding you responsible for your loved ones who died as if it’s your fault for not praying hard enough. I apologize for any offense or distress my postings may have caused you.
Do I think you are responsible for your loved ones that died without salvation? Of course, not. You witnessed to AND prayed for them. There was nothing more you could do. Had you merely shown them Acts 2:38 and told them to choose or lose, then I would think you could’ve done more. Ultimately, they alone are responsible for their decisions, but I think our prayers are crucial, for reasons already stated.
Taking Jason’s favorite phrase: I never said that if someone you pray for dies without salvation it’s because you didn’t pray hard enough. I don’t think I even implied that. I said clearly from the onset that I agree we must preach and that God won’t force Himself on anyone. Where we disagree, is that I don’t conclude from this that therefore praying for the lost is worthless. I believe there is a spiritual battle for their soul that must be fought through prayer.
From the very beginning I told of Sis. Julie Vasquez’s revelation when her dad died unsaved. Hearing her testimony gave me the revelation that God will not force salvation on anyone. But I didn’t conclude from that as you have, that therefore, our prayers are meaningless, unscriptural, and irrational.
Third, you say that a spiritual battle is fought by preaching, that preaching alone is enough to save the lost, and that God’s word doesn’t come back void. I made it clear from my very first post, that I agree preaching is essential. How else will they hear? But preaching makes the lost aware of a choice to be made for salvation. It’s prayer that moves upon their hearts and souls to ultimately surrender to God. I stand by initial argument that prayer and preaching are not effective exclusive from each other.
Finally, you said “The reason I believe praying for the lost is not effective is not just because Scripture does not say it is, but because the concept is not consistent with what the Scripture does say, and not consistent with reason.” I’m sorry that’s just absurd to me. My reading of the Scriptures tells me nothing is more important than praying for the lost to be saved. We have a spiritual battle for eternal souls. There are countless numbers of people who have already heard the Gospel and yet reject it. And you think we should not pray for them?
You seem to have peace about not having to pray for your lost loved ones. I couldn’t sleep at night if I washed my hands of them. Am I supposed to say, “Well, you guys know all about the Gospel, so to H— to you, if you don’t get your act together and repent.”
I have the same peace you have in knowing that I’m not responsible for their ultimate decision and destiny. But I feel this peace because I am praying earnestly for them. I can’t keep preaching to them; I’m not going to tell them anything they don’t already know. But that doesn’t mean to me that my role in the spiritual battle for their salvation is nonexistent.
As for harm in praying for the lost: First there is no harm to the lost. You and Jason argue that the harm could come to the believer who is praying for the lost. But that is true in any prayer. Anytime we pray in faith, there is a chance God will not answer our prayers the way we hope, and we can be disappointed, confused, angry, etc. But more importantly, there is no such harm to me in praying for the lost because I understand that though my prayers are significant and crucial in fighting a spiritual battle, human will can still resist the drawing of the Spirit.
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March 13, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Jason,
James Anderson and David R. addressed three of four points I wanted to make, namely 1) Where does the Bible say that God is doing 100% to reach the lost; 2) If God doesn’t need us to pray because He is already doing 100%, then why does He need us to preach–He obviously has given us a role in salvation for the lost; 3) the Bible says to pray for God to send laborers, but the laborers have to go of their own free will, too. So are we praying for God to force laborers to go? I will read your response to James and David in satisfaction for these three points.
The fourth point I wanted to make is that prayer could be part of the labor. It sure feels like hard labor. Jesus didn’t say that the only labor needed for the ripe harvest is preaching.
There are several problems with some of your premises used to support your rationale. One rationale you assert is that we don’t need to pray because the harvest is already ripe. The only way your rationale works is if the “the harvest being ripe” means that their hearts are already spiritually ready to accept the Gospel, and all they need to do is hear it. That’s not believable. If that were the correct understanding of the ripe harvest, then everyone who heard would accept.
Please clarify your definition of the harvest being ripe, support it Biblically, and explain how your definition of the harvest being ripe means that praying for the lost is unecessary.
Another rationale you assert is that God won’t force His will, and thus, praying for the lost in ineffective. I agree that God won’t force someone to accept salvation; however I disagree that we should therefore conclude that it is useless to pray for the lost to be saved.
You’ve asserted that praying for the lost to be saved is separate from every other kind of prayer. That’s not true. Free will affects most of the things we pray for, not just salvation. When I pointed out that Jesus prayed for Peter, you answered that Peter already had faith. Do we lose free will once we adopt faith? Of course not. Peter could have chosen to forsake the Lord completely after he denied Christ; he could have killed himself in shame, or decided to never preach again. But the Lord prayed for him that his faith will not fail, and that significantly affected the decisions Peter made.
Your premise that the decision of salvation is the only thing we pray for that involves free will has no merit. If I pray about accepting or rejecting a job offer, it’s ultimately my free will to accept or reject it. God won’t force me to accept or reject a job. I pray that He makes it clear to me, and He does, but I can still choose to do the opposite of the Lord’s tug. And there are numerous other examples of things we pray for that involve free wil. Why should we continue to pray for other things, but not pray for the salvation of the lost?
Praying for the lost is no different. Our prayers still have an effect on their decision to accept Christ or not. Ultimately, they can go against what they have come to clearly see and know what they should do; they resist the draw of the Spirit. But it is prayer that brings them to that point.
The Bible says the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. It doesn’t say God will ever force someone to accept salvation, but it also doesn’t say that prayer is therefore frutiless. Prayer does do something—or I’m sorry,—God does do something when we pray. (Although the Bible doesn’t say God does much when a righteous man fervently prays. Semantics!)
You said I have no Biblical support for saying that God is angry with sinners and we can stand in the gap, but that is exactly what Moses did when God wanted to destroy all of Israel. He begged God not to, and the Lord relented of His plan to destroy them. In the OT they did physically, what has meaning to us spiritually. I shouldn’t have to prove to you that God is angry with sin. I believe that we can stand in the gap and pray for God to have mercy on sinners, for they know not what they do, and bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus. That takes intercessory prayer.
Your support for your argument that we shouldn’t pray for the lost is just not persuasive. You use Jesus’s example of the harvest being ripe, but give no support for how that means we shouldn’t pray. And you argue that you believe God is already doing 100% and doesn’t need our prayers, but you say that applies exclusively to praying for the lost without giving Biblical or rational reasons as to why. There are too many holes in your arguments for me to take them seriously. I’m interested in reading your response to James Anderson and David R.
Seni
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March 14, 2006 at 7:55 am
Friends,
Just checking into this interesting debate. I do think it is a helpful question to ask. In my experience I have heard preachers state that we could have done more to effect another’s salvation by our prayers. In fact, I have heard a well-known preacher tell a story in which he responded to a mother crying at her unsaved son’s death in this manner. He told her (by his own testimony) that she should have been weeping over him before he had died and the implication was that he would have then be saved. What a ridiculous thing!
I do think we all need to be aware of what Jason is saying and is not saying. His criticism has its limits as he has acknowledged. I would like to take his criticism a little further. My criticism of praying for the lost’s salvation is this: (1) it can become a form of works-righteousness which we feel we must do for others; (2) it somewhat usurps Christ’s present position as High Priest; (3) the one method for reaching the lost is clearly taught in Scripture: the proclamation of the Gospel.
So I agree with Jason to a degree. However, concerning his reasoning based on free will, let me ask several questions: (1) what is the difference between influencing vs. changing a person’s will; and (2) what is the difference between God sending laborers and saving the lost as it pertains to their free will? In other words, how can God use our prayers to influence someone to be an evangelist (in any sense) but not use our prayers to influence someone to choose Christ?
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March 15, 2006 at 5:28 pm
James
Great post and good point! I think you have presented the best challenge to my argument thus far. It has given me much to chew on, and reason for pause. In fact, I paused for several days.
Indeed, how could God send out laborers per my prayer apart from overriding their will to make them go? I might respond by saying He could do so by influencing their will. But if God is already doing all He can to save the lost shy of forcing them to repent, and part of their salvation depends on believers’ preaching of the Gospel to them, it would seem God is already doing all He can do to influence their will. And if that’s the case, why pray for the laborers? This presents a challenge to my view.
One thing we might ask ourselves is if we are making too much of Jesus’ statement. Jesus was speaking analogically, and when people are speaking analogically we should not press their analogies/words too far. On this view Jesus may not have intended to convey the idea that we are actually supposed to pray to God to send laborers into the field, but was using the notion of “pray for” as a rhetorical device meant to communicate God’s desire for laborers to work the fields. It would be a way of expressing God’s concern for laborers, not a literal enjoinder to pray that God sends them. The context might bear this out, because the audience to whom Jesus spoke those words were the 70 disciples He was about to send out to preach the Gospel of the kingdom. This interpretation is questionable, however, because while the field and laborers analogy is clearly not literal, there is no good contextual reason to believe Jesus’ statement to “pray” for the sending of laborers into the field was meant any way other than literal.
So what am I to do? I could affirm that this passage undermines the second rational premise of my argument (that God is already doing all He can so asking Him to do more is an impossible prayer to answer), but maintain my position based on the strength of my first rational premise (God cannot override someone’s free will), and my Biblical premise (we are never told to pray for the lost to be saved, and never find anyone doing so).
A second option is to repudiate my position altogether based on this one passage, and start praying for the lost to be saved.
A third option is to acknowledge Jesus’ field analogy as a possible anomaly to my view (depending on how well Jesus’ analogy represents reality), but nevertheless maintain my view because of the superior strength of other considerations. This option is the one I have landed on. At this point in time a possible implication of a single analogy is not enough to convince me that my second rational premise is fundamentally flawed. Analogies are not good sites on which to build doctrines, yet alone a single analogy. The fact remains that the Bible nowhere instructs us to pray for the lost to be saved, and there are good reasons to believe that doing so cannot be effective.
The ultimate basis for my position is the character and portrait of God as painted in the Bible. The Bible portrays God over and over again as being “consumed” with reaching the lost.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (I Tim 2:3-4)
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (II Pet 3:9)
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (Jn 3:16)
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.” (Mt 18:12-14)
So why should we believe God only exerts partial effort to bring His lost sheep back home? Why should we believe God is only working at X level on their hearts, but will ramp up His activity to higher levels if I say prayers for those individuals to be saved? Am I to believe that the God who was so concerned about every man’s eternal destiny that He divested Himself of His divine prerogatives to become man (Jn 1:1, 14; Phil 2:5-8), and willingly suffered a humiliating and painful death on their behalf, is not now continuing to do all He can do to reach the heart of every individual He died for? Is the God who desires for all men to be saved not actively doing everything He can to fulfill that desire? Am I to believe that human parents are more motivated to find their lost children than God? Is the God who gave His all on Calvary sitting around waiting on you to pray for someone before He puts all His efforts towards saving them? Is our God really that lazy and apathetic about the lost? I have a very difficult time believing so. That’s not the kind of God I find described in the Bible. There are many things for which God will not move until we pray, but it does not seem possible that striving with the hearts of His own children is one of them.
Jason
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March 15, 2006 at 5:30 pm
David,
When it comes to doctrine (what we believe to be true and what we practice as being true) we need more than good intentions. I have no doubt that those who pray for the lost to be saved have only the best of intentions, but those intentions do not change reality. We should pray for ourselves that
we would be prepared and available to preach the Gospel to the lost, but that is very different from praying for the lost to be saved.
You asked for my Biblical support in concluding that God is doing all He can to bring the lost to salvation. There is no specific Scripture from which I draw this conclusion, but the overall picture of God’s great love for humanity, and His desire to see them saved (what I just argued above in my response to James). It is logically inconceivable that a God like that would (1) not be doing all He can to reach His lost children apart from what any other humans do, and (2) would entrust to us something so important to Him as the salvation of His children. I just can’t imagine God saying, “Man! I really wanted to save that person but David didn’t pray hard enough for him.”
No, praying for a lost soul to have his life extended (in the case of a life-threatening illness or something) is not a prayer for them to be saved. It is a prayer to grant them more time in which to make a positive decision for Christ. What they decide to do with that extra time (should God give it) is up to them.
Jason
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March 16, 2006 at 11:30 am
I just remembered another Scripture which speaks of how God works in the lives of the lost to bring them to salvation. Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.” (Jn 6:44)
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March 16, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Chad,
What is difference between influencing and changing a person’s will? The difference is that we can do the former but not the latter. The only person who can change someone’s will is the 1st person subject who owns the will. All others are relegated to the role of influencers of their will. Whether that influence will cause them to change their will is entirely decided by them.
We have first-hand experience of influencing others’ wills. We do it every day of our lives. People don’t always see eye to eye on everything. For example, you think it is hot, but your wife thinks it is cold. She turns the temperature up, but you want it down. What do you do? You influence her will so that she’ll turn it down (or you buy a car with dual climate control like I did—what a Godsend!). Hopefully she’ll be persuaded and change her will. If not, all of us men know what happens: we roast!
Could I make her will differently that what she does? No. I could coerce her into leaving the temperature low by using my superior “man strength” to overpower her access to the buttons, but her will would still be set on turning the temperature up. Since it is difficult to drive while restraining your wife’s arms, us men hope to influence our wives’ wills so that they will willingly allow us to leave the heat on low. So while I can coerce her into doing what I want her to do, I cannot make her will to do it.
In regards to your second question see my response to James Anderson.
Jason
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March 16, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Seni,
You are making it sound as though I am saying we have no part in the process—as though we just sit back and watch people pour into our churches. Of course we have a part. Our part is to preach the Gospel to those whom the Lord has been preparing to hear it. But God has a part too. His part is to work with the believer to prepare their hearts to receive the Gospel. He prepares, we proclaim.
You hypothesized that prayer could be part of the labor of the laborers. Nice theory, but why should I believe that? Anybody can make up whatever they want and say it is possible that their X is part of the labor, but the fact remains that the only thing the Bible tells us to do is go and preach. Your hypothesis that prayer is part of the labor is mere conjecture.
Clearly Jesus did not mean that every person in the field is ripe. There are only certain people in the field who are ripe. You know that Jesus knew that, and you know that I believe that, and you know that his analogy did not teach anything contrary to that. We preach the Gospel to all, and those who are ripe will be plucked; those who aren’t will remain in the field. Maybe they will ripen later as God continues to work on their heart. Maybe they will never ripen because of the obstinance of their will, and will be burned when the field is set ablaze at the end.
You wrote, “Please clarify your definition of the harvest being ripe, support it Biblically, and explain how your definition of the harvest being ripe means that praying for the lost is unecessary.” Being “ripe” is a word I used, not Scripture. Jesus simply called it the “plentiful” “harvest.” But obviously one doesn’t harvest grain until it is ripe. It seems pretty clear from the context what this ripe harvest is: people who are ready to hear and accept the message of the Gospel. My point was that their hearts were prepared prior to the laborers doing any labor. Jesus simply asked for people to pick the crop God has already tended to and made ready.
Of course free will is involved in many of the things we pray for, but the only thing for which free-will is absolutely determinative is that of salvation. If I pray for someone to be healed, for instance, they don’t need to believe, and they don’t need to agree to it. God can simply do it because He chose to do it. I can pray to God to heal an unbelieving atheist, and God may very well do so. The atheist’s consent is not necessary. But I can’t pray that God save that individual because his consent is necessary for that. So my premise is not that “the decision of salvation is the only thing we pray for that involves free will,” but that it is the only thing in which the outcome requires that we freely agree to it.
My point about Jesus’ prayer for Peter was that it was not an instance of praying for one to be saved (which is what you needed it to be). It was a prayer for spiritual strength. And I don’t see where Peter has to freely accept spiritual strength from on high. God can just give it if He wants to. In fact, I don’t see Peter asking Jesus to pray that, or agreeing to accept it.
You wrote, “The Bible says the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. It doesn’t say God will ever force someone to accept salvation, but it also doesn’t say that prayer is therefore frutiless.” Of course the prayer of a righteous man avails much. No one questions that. But it’s not a blank check to pray for anything and get it. There are certain things for which prayer will “not work.” You can pray for the devil all you want but he’s still going to end up in hell. The question is whether the salvation of the lost is one of the things that our prayers can affect. I don’t think it is for reasons already stated (“run faster Andy”). If the Bible never tells me to pray for them, and never tells me that my prayers can help them to be saved, why believe that a fervent prayer for their salvation will be answered?
And all this talk about prayer helping them in their spiritual battle seems like an invented belief to me. When people in the Bible had spiritual battles (i.e. battles with demonic possession) the only way to cure it was by being in front of that person and casting the devil out. No one went home and prayed for them to beat the devils. Besides, not everyone is demon possessed. The only other kind of spiritual battle is the one taking place inside their spirit. We can’t help them with that.
In regards to your Moses’ intercession example, again, this is a temporal judgment. Big deal! It’s not a relevant example. They didn’t have to agree to be spared from temporal judgment if God decided to answer Moses prayer, but they would have to agree to be spared from eternal judgment. Its apples and oranges. But you have to appeal to the apples because there are no examples of the oranges you are looking for. There are no examples where someone intercedes and asks God to bring eternal life to someone.
Well, it looks like we both agree that each other’s arguments are unpersuasive. That’s probably the closest we will come to agreeing on anything in regards to this topic. You seem to give priority to your experience, while I give priority to Scripture and reason. We simply have two different foundations for our beliefs on this matter, and for that reason I don’t think we’ll ever end up at the same conclusion. You aren’t bothered by the fact that your practice is nowhere taught, nor exemplified in Scripture. I am. You aren’t bothered by the fact that you think the Word of God is not enough to convert someone. I am. You aren’t bothered by a God who is so lackadaisical toward the lost that He doesn’t bother to draw them to Him until after someone has prayed for them (or doesn’t do more to draw them until after someone has prayed for them). I am. You and I seem to have two different Bibles, two different experiences, and two different Gods when it comes to this matter. I love you, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with you (unless you’ve been praying for me to do so, in which case God is working overtime on me to change my mind!!). Ha!!!
Jason
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March 16, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Jason,
I have come to conlude quite the opposite from you based on a study of 1 Timothy 2:1-8.
This passage is an exhortation concerning prayer (most likely public) for all men (humanity). This prayer includes: supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving! There is an emphasis upon rulers but the prayer is obviously not limited to rulers. Paul states that we should do this so that “we may lead a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverance” (v. 2). The basis for the prayer is God’s desire for all men to be saved. The good ole’ commentary of Jamieson-Fausset-Brown argues: “therefore we should meet the will of God in behalf of others, by praying for the salvation of all men.” Other commentaries are similar (see J.N.D. Kelly and William Hendriksen).
I do not think that one can respond by saying that the prayer is for corporate humanity or for groups of humanity (i.e. ‘rulers). No, that would be to fallaciously argue that God can somehow deal with groups without dealing with individuals.
This does not mean: (1) that the salvation of any soul is ultimately up to us (besides our own); or (2) that we have nothing to do with the salvation of others. Rather, proclamation and prayer are part of the work of the Church and neither are performed properly apart from the Spirit. To distinguish too much between God’s work without us and God’s work through us will lead one to numerous needless quandaries. Nay, God works his will through His people.
Furthermore, let me add to the argument by saying that our prayers for the unsaved to be saved is in entire agreement with the will of God. Prayer in agreement with the will of God is never wrong (Mt. 6:10). We could list many passages concerning God’s will that all be saved (John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:4, Rom. 5:18, 2 Pet. 3:9, Rev. 22:17). So this is not analogous to praying for the devil to be saved, for God does not desire, nor will, that the devil be saved. It is on this solid basis, that I think one could argue that we are therefore entitled to pray for the salvation of the lost!
Also, I think that you got ahead of yourself when you stated that prayer has nothing to do with ‘revival.’ Paul’s letters are filled with prayers and intercessions for the work of God (Phil. 1:9, Col. 1:9, 1 Thess. 3:11-13, 2 Thess. 1:11, 3:1). Jesus commands his disciples to pray for laborers to go into the harvest (Mt. 9:37-38) which does not concern prayer for the lost, but certainly impacts the work of God. The prayer meeting recorded in Acts 4:23-31 certainly seemed to be linked to a sovereign move of God (i.e. ‘revival’)!
So what are we to do? We are to do what Paul tells Timothy: “pray for all men” (1 Tim. 2:1ff); and “preach the word” (2 Tim. 4:2).
Neither are works which force any man’s hand nor God’s but by which we work with God (1 Co. 3:9).
Lastly, your reasoning based on free will concerning prayer would eventually lead to us practically praying for very little. If your position on free will conflicts with this understanding of prayer then you need to nuance your understanding of free will.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Grace and peace!
Chad
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March 16, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Jason,
Other commentators agree with my previously stated position as well. Even the Methodist (wesleyan) Adam Clarke makes the same case. In one place he states that the intercessions mentioned in 1 Tim 2:1 are “intercessions for their conversion.” Clarke says even more in commenting on v. 4: “Because he wills the salvation of all men; therefore, he wills that all men should be prayed for.”
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Grace and Peace,
Chad
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March 16, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Jason,
I haven’t ran out of steam yet! Now let me address your line-of-reasoning which begins with this idea: God is already doing all that He can to save the lost. First, this line of reasoning raises a false dilemma. Does God reach the lost without our help at all? No! Though the increase is of God, we are labourers with him (1 Co. 3:5-9). We preach Jesus Christ crucified without which a person cannot be saved (Rom. 10:8-13). What God does to reach the lost he does through His church (preaching, intercession, service).
Second, prayer for another’s salvation is not necessarily for God to change their will, but for God to influence them, open doors, soften their hearts, etc. You may respond, God is already doing that! Sure, but there are other things that God is doing but which we also pray for! The Lord’s Prayer is an example of this. Why do we need to pray that His will be done? Is He not going to perform it? Why do we need to pray for His kingdom to come? Will it not come without our prayers? Prayer is at the least somehow connected with God’s will. Also, if it be not connected with influencing human will at all then why does Paul pray to God for the Corinthians to do no wrong if it can have no impact on their choice (2 Co. 13:7)? Indeed, what is our prayer for our enemies supposed to be concerned with (Mt 5:44) and how can it be fruitful? Certainly the prayer would be for their forgiveness inspite of what they had done towards us. Why does God need our prayers for our enemies? And why, as others have pointed out, does Paul pray for the salvation of Israel? This last passage referred to (Rom. 10:1-13) seems to fit quite nicely with the aforementioned exhorations of Paul to Timothy: “pray for all men”; and “preach the Word.”
Third, could prayer for the lost not be a way for us to allow God to burden us for the lost in order for us to go to them? Would it be wrong to think of those who are lost and prepare our minds to reach them in prayer? This is a practical point but worth making it seems.
Lastly, let me say that I appreciate you asking this question. I greatly respect your desire to be biblical regardless of that crossing any previously held opinions or traditions. My responses have not been to set anyone straight but so that I may know more about prayer’s biblical priorities. I’ve also enjoyed putting a case together by thinking through the issue.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Grace, peace, and joy!
Chad
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March 17, 2006 at 10:57 am
Seni,
(from Jason) When pressed on the point of how many people that you preach the Gospel to and pray for actually convert to Christianity, you seemed to water down your results after someone challenged you. What started off as the “majority” turned out to be a small minority. Get me? It’s frustrating because it’s almost like a quick way to discredit what the reader responded with. And then to say you never said that those who die without salvation do so because we didn’t pray enough, unjustly discredits my wife’s arguments. Just kidding! I couldn’t resist that one. (end Jason)
It’s not shocking that the majority of people you get into a Bible study convert to Christianity. For one, they are a captive audience to the Word of God for long periods of time. For another, the fact that they even agreed to a Bible study shows they are already hungry. I don’t think your travailing prayers had much to do with hungry people heavily exposed to the Word of God converting.
You said the last three Bible studies you gave were not successful, and you “feel” the reason for this was because you did not pray enough for your students. Why believe that? Why should I believe that? How could you even know that to be the case? That kind of knowledge is beyond our ability to know or verify.
You said you think you will have to give an account for not praying for people to be saved. Where did you come up with that belief? Scripture? I don’t think so. Do you honestly think God will hold you accountable for not doing something He never commanded you to do in Scripture? If it was something we must do, and will be held accountable for not doing, it would seem that God would have made this clear in the Bible.
You acknowledged that you are not ultimately responsible for their salvation, but think they need help fighting “a spiritual battle for their soul that they are ill-equipped to fight themselves.” Is God ill-equipped to help them fight it? Is He not helping them, even apart from your prayers? If He wants them to be saved I’m sure He is. I’m sure He is not entrusting their fate to us.
And what is the spiritual battle they are fighting? Are you talking about the struggle within their spirit (i.e. their will), or are you talking about a demonic battle? If the latter, are you saying every non-saved person is battling demonic spirits?
You wrote, “On judgment day, will I have to give an account? I think I would, and I thank God for the blood. So, yes, I do feel partly responsible for not waging the spiritual battle. It’s not that I didn’t ever utter a word of prayer for them; it’s that I didn’t spend the time travailing and interceding for their lost soul. It might have made all the difference in the world in their ultimate decision.” I find this very disturbing. I would not be able to sleep at night if I believed what you believe, knowing that a soul might be spending eternity in hell because of MY lack of intercession on their behalf; knowing that the prayers I did not pray might have made all the difference in the world in their ultimate decision. I thank God that my fate does not lie in the hands of other people.
You wrote, “The last three Bible studies I gave were not successful, and I feel in part because I did not fight the battle on my knees. I was too caught up in my big, bad self, and to confident in my ability to teach, that I neglected the spiritual warfare. … It’s not that I didn’t ever utter a word of prayer for them; it’s that I didn’t spend the time travailing and interceding for their lost soul.” So why is it that the prayers you did pray were not sufficient? Why must you offer many prayers, and travailing prayers at that? Doesn’t God hear you the first time? But you will respond, “The Bible teaches us that sometimes God only responds to repeated requests and fervent prayers.” I agree. Jesus even told the parable about the judge who only gave a woman justice because of her repeated and incessant requests (Luke 18:1-7), and the friend who got up at midnight to give his friend bread—not because he was his friend—but because he wouldn’t stop asking (Lk 11:5-10). But if that is the case, then how could you say to me, “Do I think you are responsible for your loved ones that died without salvation? Of course, not. You witnessed to AND prayed for them. There was nothing more you could do.” If the more we pray the more God does, or the more willing God is to start doing something, then there was something more I could have done: I could have prayed more, and more fervently (according to your view). Maybe the amount of praying I did was not enough to move the hand of God. Maybe I did not pray fervently enough to truly break the spiritual bonds that were preventing them from being saved (as you say). If prayer can affect one’s chances of being saved, then it is always possible that if I had said more prayers God would have done more, and they just might have crossed the “saved threshold.” On your view it seems as though it is impossible to ever say we have done our all. We can always do more because we can always pray more. And we can never know if more prayers for a person might have made the difference between heaven and hell, or whether all the prayers in the world could have done nothing to change their obstinate will.
While you say you didn’t say that if “someone you pray for dies without salvation it’s because you didn’t pray hard enough,” earlier you said your last three Bible students were not saved because you did not wage spiritual warfare and intercede on their behalf. Apparently you believe their eternal destiny might have been different had you done so. So which is it? Do you believe how hard you pray for someone can affect their destiny or not? Now if all you mean to say is that no matter how much we pray for them, ultimately they and they alone are responsible for their choice, that is more than obvious. But if we really believe that our prayers affect their spiritual battle, then maybe if we had only prayed a little harder or longer that spiritual battle may have been won and they would have chosen Christ. So it does seem to me that you believe someone who died without being saved, may have died in that state because we did not pray hard enough for them. The same goes for the living.
Where do you find in Scripture the idea that you need to do spiritual battle on behalf of others for them to be saved?
No, your comments did not distress me. My “rage” was intended to try to get you to see the implications of your view. A few years ago, however, they would have caused me great distress. They don’t distress me now because I believe they are not true. But they could distress others. Ideas have consequences.
You said, “Where we disagree, is that I don’t conclude from this that therefore praying for the lost is worthless.” I don’t think praying for the lost is worthless. I think praying for the lost “to be saved” is not a Biblical idea, and cannot be effective for reasons already discussed.
Continued in next post…
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March 17, 2006 at 11:59 am
Jason and Lysa,
First of all, I think Bro. Chad is doing an awesome job of showing that belief in intercessory prayer for the lost to be saved is not based solely on experience. We’re definitely on the same page, but perhaps Chad is spending more than 15-20 minutes responding/searching while I’m pulling stuff from the top of my head. Or maybe he is just better at communicating.
But anyway, there is plenty of Biblical and logical support for praying for the lost. I resent Jason’s closing paragraph in which you say that my ideas are based soley on experience while yours are based on bible and reason, etc. And both of your statements saying we’re reading a different Bible. We can read the same Bible and come to different conclusions on many topics.
Also, if the idea of praying for the lost to be saved, interceding, fighting a spiritual battle, etc. was made up, I’m definitely not the one who made it all up. Attending a Pentecostal church must be very frustrating for you two in this respect (it frustrates me in some respects, too, but not when it comes to intercessory prayer).
Lysa, I think you’ve made the most persuasive Biblical arguments so far in this last post. I’m going to look closer at Paul’s witnessing style. However, the Bible doesn’t say he stopped praying. It said he stopped preaching to them. He physically left.
As for the day of Pentecost, how do we know that Peter didn’t pray for the mulititude first? He was praying in the Spirit; the Spirit makes intercession. Could the upper room prayer meeting have had anything to do with why their hearts were pricked?
Jason, you keep giving the example of praying for the sick to be healed to support your argument that only salvation involves free will. I agree with you that someone can be healed against their will. But you have not responded to the example I gave in choosing a job. That involves my free will; healing doesn’t. Choosing who, when, where, and if to marry is also a choice involving free will. The Lord won’t force us to make any decision–not just the decision for salvation. So, should we stop praying for anything that involves free will? Please answer this in relation to other prayers involving free will, not in other prayers that don’t involve free will.
Lysa, as far as praying hard enough for the lost. I think we just disagree. I do believe my prayers could have (not necessarily would have) made a difference in someone’s eternal destination. What’s wrong with taking on some accountability? You would feel accountable for not preaching; I feel accountability to do both: preach and pray. And I do believe this is consistent with the Bible. I’ll defer to my previous posts and to Chad’s more recent posts.
Jason, your response to James seemed very circular on first read. I’ll read it more closely, but I’ll let James respond before I do, since it was addressed to him.
And I completely expected that opening paragraph by Jason in Lysa’s post! You guys are such brats—unlike me 🙂 I seriously need to buy all four of us (Dulles and Baezas) the t-shirts I saw that said “If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.”
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March 17, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Correction…I’ll correct myself before Jason/Lysa do. I said in my last post that Jason said my ideas are based solely on experience. In fact, Jason, said I give priority to experience. I had begun writing something else, and then changed it, but didn’t do a good job at it. Sorry.
I still resent the statement as made though. First of all, I wouldn’t give priority to an experience that contradicted Scripture. I believe my experience is consistent with Scripture. Second, I’ve used more Scripture and logic in my posts than personal experiences.
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March 17, 2006 at 2:41 pm
After thinking through this important issue, I would remove the word “saved” from my prayer.
God has already provided for salvation and individuals should choose the plan. I still argue that praying for the lost is a good thing.
Jason Said,
“It is logically inconceivable that a God like that would (1) not be doing all He can to reach His lost children apart from what any other humans do, and (2) would entrust to us something so important to Him as the salvation of His children.”
It’s biblically inconceivable that you continue to make point(1). God has done all He can, Is doing all He can, and continues to do all He can, but God reaches the lost through the believer.
If Believer “A” botches the job, He can use Believer “B” and C, D, and so on. I would say He can even use the unbeliever. However, He always uses Man in His working of Salvation. In regards, to point(2), you speak as if God just disconnects from the work. He entrusts “The Message” of His salvation to us, not the salvation of His children. “For we are God’s fellow workers…”. (1Cor 3:9).
God chased Jonah down until His will was accomplished. He Didn’t need to, but that is how He chose to work.
Chad makes some very good points based on scripture and reasoning.
Allow me to add to some of his comments –
“Third, could prayer for the lost not be a way for us to allow God to burden us for the lost in order for us to go to them?” Yes !! God can do that and he probably does.
It may also keep our minds and hearts more aware of the lost in our lives.
“Would it be wrong to think of those who are lost and prepare our minds to reach them in prayer?” God can give us scriptures, examples, timing, etc for a specific individual.
Side Note –
I was watching TBN this morning and Creflo Dollar started talking about this issue. He said, we shouldn’t pray “save them, save them”. He brought up a scripture about sending the laborers.
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March 17, 2006 at 2:47 pm
This topic is like putting Pharisees and saducees in room and asking them to debate the resurrection.
Thanks Jason.
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March 23, 2006 at 1:19 am
Sorry for the delay in responding to everyone. Unlike Chad, I did run out of steam. I felt like a boxer in the 12th round of a 14 round match. So after taking a few days off I’m back and ready to go a few more rounds. After that, I’ll be ready to retire this debate. I’ll be responding to Chad and David in this round. Seni, my wife and I will be responding to your post shortly, so tape up your hands and get your gloves on. Ha!
Jason
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March 23, 2006 at 1:20 am
Chad,
I would not argue that we can pray for groups without it constituting a prayer for each individual in the group, or that God can deal with groups without dealing with individuals within the group.
I can see how you are reading I Tim 2:1-4, and admit it is a possible reading of the text, but I don’t think it’s the only way to understand it, nor the best. You are connecting verse 4 with verse 1, as if verse 4 tells us the content/subject of what we are to pray for “all men” for: their salvation. Not only does verse 4 not provide us with any content for our prayers (as verse 2 did in reference to rulers), but I don’t think your connection of verse 4 with verse 1 works very well exegetically either. Let’s walk through the passage.
In verse 1 Paul said he wants the church to make requests, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving for all men, without ever specifying what exactly we are to pray and give thanks for. In verse 2 Paul narrowed the OBJECT of prayer to rulers, and specifically named the SUBJECT of those prayers as “living a good and peaceful life.” In verse three Paul said “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.” What is good and acceptable?: prayers for all men, and prayers for rulers that we might lead good and peaceable lives.
Verse 4 begins with the relative pronoun, hos (who), and thus begins a relative clause. Hos is “routinely used to link a noun or other substantive to the relative clause, which either describes, clarifies, or restricts the meaning of the noun.” (Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, 336). The noun to which hos refers back to is “God” in verse three. The relative clause is not setting forth the thing for which we are to pray for all men, but is adding a descriptive remark about God: He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It does not set forth another SUBJECT for our prayers, but sets forth a descriptive remark about the God who is pleased with our prayers. It gives us additional information about God, not additional information about our prayers. The point is that the God who is pleased with these prayers is the same God who wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.
This relative clause serves as a segue for Paul to discuss his evangelistic mission. He immediately goes into the substitutionary atonement that made such salvation possible (vv. 5-6), and then his role as a preacher, teacher, and apostle of the Gospel message (v. 7). Through Paul’s role as a preacher and teacher the knowledge of the truth (which is what God wants all men to come to) will be spread, and people will be able to act on that knowledge to exercise saving faith in Christ. The way Paul works with God to fulfill God’s desire for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, then, is to preach (in his role as apostle) and teach (in his role as teacher) the Gospel to them.
And it is abundantly clear that Paul’s request in verse 8 for men to pray everywhere is not connected to evangelism for two reasons. First, the word “men” is the Greek word aner, which refers specifically to male gender. If this verse is talking about evangelism, are we to conclude that only the men should pray for the salvation of the lost? Secondly, verses 8 and 9 are two sides of one coin (“in like manner also that women…”), and it is clear that what Paul wants women to do in verse 9 (wear suitable apparel) has nothing to do with evangelism. Unless one is willing to argue that what women wear is part of evangelism as well, they would have a difficult time tying the prayers men are to pray with evangelism.
In regards to the commentaries…that’s nice. An error repeated over and over again doesn’t become the truth. I understand the weight of authorities and multiple attestations, but that is not enough to make it true. The question is not What does person X believe the interpretation of this passage is?, or even How many people believe Y is the proper interpretation of this passage?, but Why does person X believe that is a proper interpretation of this passage? It’s their justification and reasoning I am interested in, not just their conclusion.
My comment about praying for the Devil to be saved was to demonstrate that certain prayers cannot be answered, not to make a corresponding comparison to praying for the lost. I agree with you that it is different in the respect you named, but that does not make it any more answerable.
Yes, a prayer to God to save the lost would be in accordance with His will in the sense that what we want is the same thing He wants. The question, however, is if that prayer can be effective. I am arguing that logically speaking it cannot be effective if indeed God is already doing all He can in the lives of the lost to lead them to salvation. “Run faster Andy!”
I don’t think saying God’s job is to work in the lives of the lost to “ripen” them for salvation, and our job is to preach the Gospel to them is to distinguish too much between God’s work and our own, nor do I think it leads to numerous quandaries. He does what we can’t do, while we do what we can. I’m just trying to identify what it is that He and we can and cannot do.
If by “revival” you refer to reviving the saints and empowering them for the work of evangelism, then yes, you are absolutely right that prayer can affect revival. If by “revival” you refer to saving new souls, then no, I don’t think prayer affects revival. Preaching the Word will bring that sort of revival; i.e. the saving of souls.
In regards to your last comment about how my view would eliminate the need to pray for most things, I fail to see how you come to this conclusion. I have stated many times now that the one thing in view here is praying for the lost to be saved. Why? Because God will not override their free-will, and yet salvation is the one thing that absolutely requires the consent of their will. For other prayers a third party need not necessarily cooperate with God for Him to answer our prayers. He can “strongly influence” them, or simply take them out of the way. The prayer for someone’s salvation is a unique case relating to free-will.
Jason
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March 23, 2006 at 1:21 am
David,
So are you the Pharisee or the Saducee? Ha!
Yes, God almost always uses man in accomplishing salvation of the lost. The question is how? He does so by having us preach the Gospel message to the lost, not by praying for them to be saved. God’s doing all He can do as the Father of all humans to woo them back to Him. We are commissioned to preach the Gospel to His children to reap the plentiful harvest God has already ripened.
You quoted Chad who said, “Third, could prayer for the lost not be a way for us to allow God to burden us for the lost in order for us to go to them?”, and then you went on to say, “Yes !! God can do that and he probably does. It may also keep our minds and hearts more aware of the lost in our lives.” Yes, prayer for the lost to be saved may do that, but (1) the Bible does not tell us this is a reason to pray for the lost, and (2) a post-it note can serve just as well as a reminder.
Jason
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March 30, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Dear Jason,
Praise God everyone! Wow. What a debate. I pulled the entire comments column for this particular blog entry into Word to coalesce various posts and the length of the discussion came to 84 pages!
I’ve been busy and unable to respond to your last response, but here are my concluding responses (there may be multiple posts). I have indeed concluded in opposition to your position. I believe that it is appropriate and commendable to pray for the salvation of the lost and for revival based on Scriptural grounds. I will then give you the benefit of having the last word on the issue!
Points of Agreement
First, let me state that I am complete agreement with you concerning the priority of proclamation. The presentation of the Gospel is paramount, and without it no one can come to God. If we are not sharing Jesus Christ with the lost, we certainly should not be concerned to pray for them either. Praying but not proclaiming is entirely wrong-headed.
Secondly, I also understand your pastoral concerns for God’s people. We should not feel that we failed God when someone fails to respond to the Gospel given that it was presented graciously and correctly. Your concern for God’s character is also right. God’s character would be impugned if He were not acting to perform what He has clearly revealed to be His will: the salvation of all humanity. Nevertheless, His will is not something He performs apart from His church. This is clear throughout Scripture, and certainly true of proclaiming the Gospel. The responsibility of preaching the Gospel falls squarely upon the shoulders of the Church. Thus, God’s sovereign plan is intimately tied to our responsibility, perhaps in a way we will never be able to unwrap on this side of heaven. The questions, of course, are these: has He commanded us to pray for the lost or at least permit it? Or given the lack of such command or permission are we not to do so at all?
Continued in the next post.
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March 30, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Scriptural Grounds
Matthew 6:9-13, Romans 10:1 and 1 Timothy 2:1-7 provide Scriptural grounds for praying for the salvation of the lost.
Scriptural Pillar 1: Matthew 6:9-13
The command in Matthew 6:9 is stated thus, “pray then like this…” (ESV). The Greek word is proseuchomai, meaning “to pray, entreat.” What follows is a prayer to God, not merely an expression of hope or desire as you unfortunately were led to conclude. The priority in the prayer is for God’s glory (His name to be hallowed), His kingdom to come, and His will to be done. Granted these are expressive of the hope and desire of the Christian, but they are more than that, they are a part of God’s dynamic working to bring His salvific reign to consummation. His sovereignty cannot be expanded, for He is fully sovereign, so the verse is not speaking of His kingdom in that sense. But it is His Kingdom which has come now in part, but not yet fully. The prayer continues in entreating God’s will to be performed upon earth as it is in heaven. This confirms this view of the coming of Christ’s kingdom. In Heaven it already is, but on earth, not yet in fullness. Both are explicit prayers commanded by Christ, not wishes, desires, or dreams only. Therefore it follows that we can pray for things within God’s will which it may, at first, seem to be determined only by God’s working. This includes the salvation of the lost which certainly falls within the coming of His kingdom, i.e. His saving rule. Thus the Lord’s prayer shows that God uses our prayers to do His will though it may not describe how He uses them. In fact, there seems to be no passage in the Bible which lays out precisely the manner or mechanics of how prayer and God’s will and working interact and relate, but the reality is that they do.
Next: Romans 10:1
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March 30, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Scriptural Pillar 2: Romans 10:1
Romans 10:1 is a specific mention of prayer for the lost. I agree that the primary concern of the full thought-unit of the following Romans 10:5-16 is the proclamation of the Gospel: “so faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” But you cannot get around Paul’s words: “brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved” (ESV). Indeed, this is an expression of Paul’s heart which is why he chose a good Greek word for that: eudokia, “delight, pleasure…desire.” But in addition to that he specifically refers to actual prayer, using the Greek word deesis, meaning “a request, entreaty,” which in no one way that I have found refers desire of the heart or anything besides praying, requesting, or asking something of God (See Kittel, TDNT, 2:40-41 and Brown, NIDNTT, 2:860-61).
I am certainly no Greek scholar (as may be evident) but thankfully both Schonweiss (NIDNTT) and Greeven (TDNT) comment on this verse in discussing the words deomai and deesis (see the references above for pp.). Schonweiss says, “If the request is made not in one’s own interest but on behalf of someone else, then deomai means to intercede,” and he references Acts 8:24, Rom. 10:1, and 2 Co. 1:11. Greeven states, “Paul uses (deesis) to describe his intercession for his for his brothers after the flesh (R.10:1), the word being frequently used for intercession.” Their comments on this verse seem conclusive and the ESV translation makes good sense in this light, “my…prayer to God for them…” It is explicitly Paul’s act of praying referred to here and it is prayer to God and it is for them (Israel) and the object of that prayer is “that they may be saved.” Whether Paul discusses how prayer and salvation of the lost relate is besides the point, what is clear is that he prayed for the salvation of His lost countrymen.
Next: 1 Timothy 2:1
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March 30, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Scriptural Pillar 3: 1 Timothy 2:1-7
If there is an actual command to pray for the salvation of the lost then 1 Timothy 2:1 is it.
I will concede that the case may not be that strong, however the passage certainly allows for it.
We must understand each component of this passage clearly for it to be understood. First, what is that Paul urges (v. 1a)? It is this, “that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made…” It is not simply ‘prayer’ that Paul insists on but specific types of prayers: 1) supplications, Gr. ‘deesis,’ referred to in discussing Rom. 10:1, which again means “asking, entreating” and at least in the case of Rom. 10:1 indicated intercession for salvation; 2) prayers, Gr. ‘proseuche,’ which is a generic reference to prayers in general; 3) intercessions, Gr. ‘enteuxis,’ meaning “intercession, petition, appeal, prayer,” which is translated as intercessions (ASV, ESV, KJV, NIV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV) and petitions (NAB, NAS). And which many commentators understand to mean “intercessions for their conversion” (Clarke); and 4) thanksgivings. In view of the breadth of these types of prayers, and the meaning which lies behind them, prayer for salvation is certainly to be permitted in the range of possible purposes (NIDNTT, 2:860-875).
Second, for whom is this to be done (v. 1b-2a)? It is to be “for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions…” Clearly, this refers to unbelievers, specifically those in authority, but not restricted to them.
Third, what is the purpose of these prayers (v. 2b)? They are so “that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.” The goal here is peace for God’s people. However, nothing here restricts the specific objects of the prayers in v. 1 for “all people.” This verse speaks only to an overarching concern within which many purposes of the wide range of prayers mentioned in v.1 are to be permitted. Indeed what could be more conducive for the peace of society than the conversion of the unregenerate?
Fourth, what does God think of these prayers (v.3)? Well, that they are good and pleasing! Why are they good and pleasing (v. 4)? It is because God desires all people to be saved. Now, it is correct that this is not the object of the prayer in v.1, but it is Paul’s theological warrant for those prayers. Verses 5-7 is an expansion of this warrant. If God’s will for all to be saved is Paul’s warrant then what is more likely in view than prayers for the salvation of all and for the unhindered, peaceful proclamation of the Gospel? I think both are in view here especially considering the various words Paul chooses to describe these prayers, particularly ‘intercessions.’ It is hard to imagine what else Paul can be referring to, if not salvation, since intercessions are on behalf of someone, and in this case, they are on behalf of unbelievers. Thus, 1 Timothy 2:1-7, if not urging prayer for the salvation of the lost specifically, allows it, and at worst does not restrict it.
Next: Other theological points…
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March 30, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Other Points
Again I want to emphasize my point in previous posts concerning the connection between prayer and the work of God. Whatever the object of the prayers mentioned, or commanded, prayer is absolutely fundamental to the responsibilities of the Church (Mt. 9:37-38, Acts 3:1; 4:23-31, Rom. 8:26, 12:12, 2 Co. 1:11, Phil. 1:9; 4:6 Col. 1:9; 4:2, 1 Thess. 3:11-13, 5:17-25, 2 Thess. 1:11; 3:1, Jas. 5:15-16, Heb. 13:18,1 Pe. 4:7). And I see know where that certain objects are laid down as valid and others are laid down as invalid. Indeed, drawing principles from our previous discussion of Matthew 6:9-13 we know that we can pray for all things that are God’s will and requests for our own needs as well.
It is also interesting to note that the ministry to which the apostles gave themselves was not proclamation only but “to prayer, and the ministry of the word” (Acts 6:4). Also, in Paul’s discussion of the spiritual armor and warfare of the believer he places the sword of the Spirit (the word of God) and prayer in the Spirit together (Eph. 6:17-18). These passages tie prayer together with the ministry of the word. From all these passages it seems hard to determine exactly where the Apostle’s preaching and praying separated in aim whether teaching or proclaiming!
Your position on free will seems to serve as a sort of theological ace in the hole on this question. However, it simply does not follow that prayer for the salvation of the lost is invalid because of the inviolability of human free will. There are many ways in which one can imagine that prayer for the salvation of the lost can be effective. Granted, it is not primarily causal in the saving act, that is due to Christ upon the Cross, and the preaching of that act (i.e. the Gospel), but it can be a part of the work of God in salvation. God could be using such prayers to open doors for the proclamation of the Gospel, for the influencing of the heart/mind in some manner apart from overriding the will, the occurrence of some significant event, meeting, etc., or for the fighting of some spiritual battle.
Your other chief concern seemed to be that praying for the salvation of the lost implied some casting of doubt upon God’s activity, ability, and desire in saving the lost. My response to this is simple: what God commands does not impugn His character. If Jesus Christ commands our entreating God for His kingdom to come and His will to be done it is certainly not because God needs our help or does not Himself desire these things! Indeed, it is by God’s incredible mysterious manner of working among and with His church by which He has chosen to do these things.
Next: Final Remarks (finally!)
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March 30, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Concerns
I am concerned with the direction your controlling theological principles could tend. Your principle of the inviolability of free will and your principle that God is already doing all that He can both seem overstressed. While you claim to not see how your position can cause one to reason away prayer in other ways, I see it rather clearly in your responses. Your understanding forces you to press many Scriptures concerning prayer into simply expressions of desire (your responses concerning Lk. 10:2, Mt. 6:9-13, Ro. 10:1, etc.). From my study of my of these passages this is rarely the case. Furthermore, I fail to see how you can make the inviolability of the free will into a controlling factor in this issue. I’m not certain that free will is inviolable anyway, but how can I pray for hardly anything that doesn’t affect the will of other human beings? Can I pray for a new job in a meaningful way and it be effective without God influencing somebody’s will? How can I pray for the resolving of problems at church that involve other people and which will obviously involve somebody’s will changing or being changed? How could I pray that God would move the local county building committee to grant a church’s request for land use without God somehow influencing their will? When I pray for things, everywhere I look I see the will of human beings involved in some way! If this is the case, why and how can the influencing of the will be restricted to everything but salvation?
You may respond by saying: God is already influencing the will of the unsaved to be saved as much as He can but He may not be influencing others to do things you’ve requested. However you respond, you have no Scriptural warrant for such a restriction.
Final Remarks
You may not regard my exegesis of Romans 10:1, 1 Timothy 2:1-7, and Matthew 6:9-13 conclusive, but even if that is the case, you have no biblical grounds for opposing prayer to the lost or restricting prayer to only things which do not violate free will. At the most you have an argument from silence and a theological principle you have adopted as a controlling factor (the inviolability of human free will) but which fails to serve as a controlling factor for any biblical author in discussing prayer (at least explicitly)!
So now that I have completed my dissertation I will go pray that God will crush your will and force you to agree with me! Ha! All jokes aside, Jason thanks for asking this important question. I hadn’t thought much of it before, but this opportunity has allowed me to understand it biblically. I also appreciate the freedom that you have allowed on your blog.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Grace, Peace, and Joy!
Chad A. Moore
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March 31, 2006 at 7:19 am
slr = steve rogers in Milwaukee WI. w/elim tabernacle / jason had asked who I was – I am just a friend of a friend
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March 31, 2006 at 9:18 am
Dulle:
Here is something to consider. What if God asked for us to pray for “laborers” because 1. it is the will of God for all to be saved and come to repentance. 2. however, he uses man to reach the lost and fulfill the Commission (Matthew 28:19). After all are we not filled with His Power and Spirit from on high? In other words, God does not ask us to ask Him to save the lost, because we know He wants to already, but yet He prays that laborers are sent, i.e. His hands and feet in the earth.
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October 17, 2006 at 4:45 pm
I think the issue may lay in self-liberty. Paul makes it clear that we are the Body of Christ. The anatomy lesson there is comprehensive; we are His feet, His hands, etc.
Therefore, God uses us to reach the lost in this time. God will not override free-will but uses the bent will of the believer. Our body is no longer our own, therefore we yeild or self-liberties to become ONE with Him. When we pray for the lost we are asking God to use us, in any way, to reach the lost.
Dr. Crownover once said, “Prayer for the salvation of the lost has nothing to do with bending God’s will or motivating Him to some action He had not previously planned. It has nothing to do with forcing the lost one to be saved. It has everything to do with yielding my will, my prerogatives, and my passions to Him on behalf of that lost one.”
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October 17, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I read your comment on the other thread. I must have worded that wrong. I believe that our prayers should be more on our readiness and sensitivity. In other words, we can pray God help me to reach the lost. That is a prayer for the lost and for yourself. I believe that I perfectly agree with Dr. Crownover as well. That’s why I posted it.
I believe that prayer for the lost helps in many ways: it conforms our will to God’s will; it prepares and enables us to do God’s will; it opens doors of opportunity that might otherwise be shut due to Satan, sin, or circumstances; it extends the grace of God to work in the lives of sinners beyond what He has already done. Regarding the last point, I believe that God extends grace to everyone to lead them to salvation (Titus 2:11). However, our prayers can result in God continuing to work in a person’s life through various means in response to our prayer. For instance, in response to our prayer, God may touch people when we teach them a Bible study, invite them to church, invite them to pray, actually pray with them, and so on. They would not have have experienced the particular works of God if we had not prayed (and acted).
Ultimately, however, the final result rests on that individual’s response to God’s grace, so that our prayers do not automatically force someone to be saved.
P.S.
I await your replies on the impeccability topic.
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October 17, 2006 at 8:47 pm
James,
I’m not sure how it follows that since we are the body of Christ, and His vehicle for reaching the lost, that praying for the lost must be efficacious. It only follows that God uses humans to reach the lost. How they reach the lost (evengelism, prayer, etc.) is a separate question.
The quote from Crownover sounds similar to what I was arguing. Praying for the lost does not affect the sinner or God. He is only adding to it that praying for the lost helps us to better yield ourselves to God so we can better reach the lost. But I question the logic of that (assuming I am understanding him correctly based on your quote). First, most people who pray for the lost think it’s actually doing something for the lost person, not themselves. But more importantly, if you recognize that praying for the lost actually helps you (and you are the one who needs the prayer), not the lost, then why not just skip praying for the lost (who don’t need it) and just pray for yourself (who does need it)? That’s what the apostles seemed to do. We find the apostles praying for boldness, and for signs and wonders. Paul told people to pray for doors of opportunity to be preach the Gospel be opened for him. So it seems to me that if you really believe what Crownover says, it ceases to make any sense to pray for the lost.
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March 31, 2014 at 12:01 am
It is clear from scripture that we must both pray for ourselves to better reach the lost as is evidenced in the prayers of the apostles, and we are to pray for the lost that they may be better conditioned to receive the message. Paul exhorts that prayers be made for all men….who will have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (I Tim 2:1-3)
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November 13, 2018 at 6:18 am
thanks, everyone! I googled the issue because I was thinking along the same lines as Dulle. Be blessed.
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November 22, 2018 at 10:53 pm
A deluded Christian denuded of common sense blames it on Jesus!
WARNING SHOT
Last week, on November 15, 2018 the day before his murder, Mr Chau offered a group of local fishermen money to ferry him to the island.
Once ashore, he tried to engage islanders but they became angry and fired an arrow at him, according to AP.
In an incredible stroke of luck, it struck a book Mr Chau was carrying, which an acquaintance said was a Bible.
Perhaps interpreting it as a divine intervention — one that may have saved his life in that moment — the American retreated and swam back to the boatful of fishermen anchored a safe distance from shore.
That night, he wrote about his adventures in his journal and left the notes with the fishermen for safekeeping.
A source with access to the journal told Indian digital outlet The News Minute that Mr Chau described having brought the Sentinelese gifts including scissors, safety pins, fish and a football.
He was confused by the mixed messages he believed the tribe was sending out, complaining that while some members were good to him, others were extremely hostile.
“I have been so nice to them. Why are they so angry and so aggressive?” Mr Chau had written, the source said.
In a another note, Mr Chau had declared that he was “doing this to establish the kingdom of Jesus on the island … Do not blame the natives if I am killed”.
Fear of impending death, however, was not enough to keep him away.
FATAL JOURNEY
John Chau returned the very next day.
As usual, the fishermen brought him as close to the island as they dared and the American paddled to shore in a canoe, AFP said, citing an official police source.
Exactly what happened next is unclear but the fishermen have told police Mr Chau was set upon from the moment his feet touched the sand.
Tribe members attack outsiders who try to visit the island with spears and bows and arrows.
“He was attacked by arrows but he continued walking,” the source said.
“The fishermen saw the (tribesmen) tying a rope around his neck and dragging his body.
“They were scared and fled but returned next morning to find his body on the sea shore.”
The seven fisherman remain in custody following their arrest for helping Mr Chau reach North Sentinel Island.
Indian media said the men told a preacher in the main town of the Andamans, Port Blair, about the incident and the preacher contacted Mr Chau’s family in the United States.
Authorities have yet to retrieve the victim’s body and believe he may have been buried in the sand.
Andaman and Nicobar Islands police director-general Dependra Pathak said officials were working with anthropologists to recover his remains.
Mr Pathak said an Indian Coast Guard vessel with police and experts on the tribe had gone to scout the island and work out how to bring the American home.
Meanwhile, “a murder case has been registered against unknown persons,” he said.:
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