Melinda Penner of Stand to Reason has another terrific post, this time on the topic of the appropriateness of God’s claim to worship and obedience. She writes:
A common objection has been raised by a number of the “new atheists.” In the ABC News debate, Kelly’s remark express it well: Even if there is a God, she “would rather go to hell than go to heaven and worship a megalomaniacal tyrant.” It comes up on Hitchens new book.
It’s one way of interpreting the God of the Bible who expects worship and
obedience. I don’t think it’s the accurate interpretation, and I don’t think it’s how we normally respond to appropriate authority in our lives and society. The expectation of respect, obedience is a very familiar one to us.Do parents expect to be obeyed and respected by their children? Of course, because there is a certain relationship in place. Do we tend to show respect to a boss? Of course. Don’t we naturally show respect, and even awe, when we meet someone for whom we have tremendous respect because of their achievements? Yes. We experience relationships all the time where a certain deference is due the person in the higher station. That’s the case with God. It’s not at all outrageous.
It’s not megalomaniacal for someone to expect the kind of deference due his accomplishments and station. The expectation isn’t arbitrary; it’s appropriate given accomplishments and position.
Now grant for a moment that God is the person who created the universe, created each one of us, sustains us and provides for all of our needs and well-being, if He
is perfect, holy and good, then wouldn’t it be reasonable that respect, obedience, and even worship are due Him? We don’t worship other human beings, but if God is the being the Bible describes, then worship seems like an appropriate expectation, and it’s not a strange, outrageous expectation given familiar human relationships.
Well said.
Thinking to Believe 
June 2, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Hello Jason,
Granted, I don’t know the context of the conversation Kelly’s remarks were made. I just always find it funny when these hypotheticals are brought up(Dan Barker brought up the same scenario, word for word, many years ago…sounds as if she’s been reading from his pamphlet)when they neither advance or defend the athiest position, essentially just turning it from a philosophical question(does God exist) into a theological question(what is God like). Basically, all she is saying is, “…even if God exists, I wouldn’t worship him because he’s a jerk…” Your response does a thorough job of explaining the theological side of it…
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June 5, 2007 at 7:48 am
Phil,
I can’t take credit for the response. I was quoting Melinda Penner.
You’re exactly right. That is essentially what they are saying. What’s ironic is that their response to God’s supposed bad character doesn’t follow. Let’s say God is a big jerk in the sky who demands that we obey Him, or else He’ll send us to hell. The fact remains that if we don’t want to go to hell, we better obey Him. The question is not Do I like the character of God?, but rather Does a God with this kind of character exist?
Given their reasoning, people can deny the existence of their parents if their parents had bad characters. Silly.
Jason
Jason
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June 30, 2009 at 7:42 am
Essentially what Kelly was trying to say was that respect and adoration must be earned. It is not and should not be granted by default simply based on status and authority alone.
I disagree with the comparison to authority figures such as parents. If parents are abusive, for example, they do not deserve an ounce of respect from their children.
The same goes for God. If God is going to tell me that I should discriminate against gays, oppose stem cell research, and bow before him in allegiance, then I want no part of it. If *that’s* the kind of God what wants my worship, then he will never get it.
It’s no different from rebelling against a tyrannical king or dictator that you disagree with, really. I, and Kelly, are willing to accept the consequences for standing up for what is right and what we believe in. We would gladly take hell over supporting such an awful character, if he exists. That’s what was meant by the comment.
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June 30, 2009 at 10:09 am
Jerome,
I disagree. Respect does not need to be deserved. For example, the office of the President should be respected, even if we do not think the man who occupies that office is respectable. While I personally disagree with virtually every policy President Obama stands for, I would stand in his honor if I found myself in his presence.
I understand your parent analogy, but God is not a moral monster. God is perfectly good. Unless I am missing some vital context, Kelly was objecting to the fact that God demands our worship (a megalomaniac in her opinion), not for being evil.
As for the issues you brought up, what is wrong with a God who created everything including you, making certain demands of us? What is wrong with a God who created humans to function sexually one way, demanding that they act in accordance with His creative purposes? What’s wrong with a God who commands us not to kill innocent human beings–lives that He created after His own likeness? He has every right to do so. It sounds to me like you simply do not want anyone exercising any moral authority over you. You will only worship a god who sees everything the way you see it. And since you are the only person who sees things uniquely the way you do, you’ll only “worship” yourself.
Jason
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June 30, 2009 at 11:02 am
The respect for the OFFICE of the president *was* earned–over 200 years of it working as a balance to the other branches of the federal government. It works with our government and is necessary for its function, so I respect it.
Let’s say there’s a coup d’état in the United States. Would you respect the person who assumes the presidency simply because he/she now has the title of “The King/Queen of the New America”? The idea that, since someone has the authority over someone else we should automatically respect it, is dangerous in my mind. It’s the very definition of a dictatorship.
God has the authority to do whatever he wants. I’ll agree with that. That doesn’t mean I need to respect him or his authority. I disagree with the regulations put forth in the bible on a philosophical level.
Besides, if he wants me to follow him, he can come talk to me and justify his reasons himself. Never has, and I’d imagine never will. The silence is deafening.
It’s not only that I don’t want anyone having moral authority over me. That’s rather childish in my opinion. It’s also that I don’t *need* it. I personally do not care what the creator of the universe might say about what’s right and wrong in his eyes. His views are just as arbitrary as ours. Laws coming from a higher or even the highest authority don’t make them any less arbitrary.
I can think for myself. For me, it is far more admirable to simply apply equality to everyone. I can do fine on my own, and I think it’s an insult to human integrity to suggest that we need a moral monarch in order to be good to one another.
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June 30, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Jerome,
I could further dispute the President example, but it’s not worth it.
If God exists, and even if He was a moral monster, it would be prudent for you to respect and serve Him if for no other reason because he has the power to punish you.
That you think the creator of the universe needs to justify Himself to you is hubris in the highest.
I don’t claim that God must exist for people to be good. People can behave morally without believing in God. What you can’t get in the absence of God is an objective grounding for good and evil. If there is no objective transcendent source of moral values, then what you think is right and wrong is not right and wrong in itself. It’s just your opinion.
If God exists, His views would not be arbitrary. He is the metaphysical ultimate.
Jason
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June 30, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Jerome,
I am interested to know your response to three questions:
(1) Do you want there to be a God, or would you rather that there be no God?
(2) If you were presented with good evidence for God’s existence, would you serve Him, even if you did not agree with Him?
(3) What sort of evidence would you be willing to accept for God’s existence? In other words, what would it take to convince you that God exists?
Jason
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June 30, 2009 at 5:11 pm
ar⋅bi⋅trar⋅y
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one’s discretion: an arbitrary decision.
Did I misuse this word? It seems to me god could make up whatever rules he wants without restriction, based solely on his discretion.
I realize it would be prudent to serve a god that wants me to serve. If I disagree and pretend that I want to serve or whatever, surely an omnipotent power would see through my deceit. Either way, that’s a bad reason to obey authority.
I think I’d take punishment over compromising everything that I believe. This is my first question for you: why wouldn’t a god, who has the ability to see things from anyone’s perspective, reward behavior like this? Why wouldn’t he reward independent and thorough thought?
1. The idea of a god is nice, but if it’s the kind of god who wants me to live forever (in either bliss or torment), I think I’d pass honestly. I don’t want to live forever. So in the case of the Christian god, I’d rather he didn’t exist. I don’t think this affects my views much though for the same reason that just because I think it’d be better if AIDS didn’t exist, that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in AIDS.
2. If it’s the Christian (or any Abrahamic) God, no. He could come to me personally, and I would not serve him, because it would go against everything that I think is important.
3. When we talk about things existing, we usually are able to interact with them in some empirical way. It’d be nice to have a normal conversation with such a being. I’m not talking about a “listen with your heart” conversation. I mean a shake of hands, physically hear with my ears, see the other party conversation. I begged and pleaded for this when I was going through my relapse of religion, and once again, the silence was deafening. How hard could that possibly be?
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July 1, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Jerome,
No, you did not misuse the word. You simply misapplied it to God. If God exists, philosophers agree that He would be the metaphysical ultimate, the greatest conceivable being, a being worthy of worship. A being who is worthy of worship would not be an evil being, but a good being. As the metaphysical ultimate, this being would be The Good. The Good would describe His nature. Since The Good is objective, God could not arbitrarily will evil. And since He is the greatest conceivable being, and it is greater to be good than it is to merely exemplify or choose the good, God must Himself be The Good.
For those of us in the workforce, we have to obey authorities we disagree with all the time! But we obey them because they are our authority. Whether they see through us to know our feelings about them is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are our boss. If God is our creator, then He has a just claim to our lives.
As the ground of all being, God is goodness and truth. If your thoughts do not line up with His, then you are the one who must change. Why would God reward you for “independent” thought, if your thoughts are false?
You make it clear that even if you knew God existed, you would not serve Him if you did not agree with Him. That is surely your choice. Your rejection of God would not be based on any lack of evidence of His existence, but based on your rejection of His authority. At least you are honest about it.
So you want an immaterial being to shake your hand? That doesn’t make any sense. I understand your desire for evidence, but to think that we must be able to know God in a physical, or empirical way is not reasonable given His nature. We can know God exists in much the same way we know atoms exist. We do not interact with them directly, but we observe their effects, and thus know they are there. Of course, there are also spiritual encounters. I have had quite a few in my lifetime. There have been times where the presence of God was so strong in the room that I could barely take it. It was physically overwhelming, like nothing I have ever experienced. And then there are also miracles.
Jason
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