Whenever I make my case against same-sex marriage to a same-sex marriage proponent, invariably they will raise a particular objection to my argument. The objection is so common that I want to devote a lengthy blog post to rebutting it. But before I do, let me briefly summarize my argument against same-sex marriage:
The primary reason human governments across time and cultures have chosen to regulate, privilege, and encourage one particular kind of human relationship over all others is because they have a vested interest in what that kind of relationship can produce: socialized children to perpetuate society. Apart from that, there is no reason for the government to meddle itself in personal, sexual relationships. They are not interested in promoting friendships or romantic love; they are interested in social self-preservation. They are interested in producing a new generation of responsible, socialized citizens to replace the existing generation. Optimal socialization involves both natural parents, so the state is interested in keeping the natural parents together as well. That is why marriage comes with legal responsibilities, and until recently, was difficult to dissolve.
What I have written thus far is not an argument, but a history lesson: Governments regulate and privilege heterosexual unions because heterosexuals procreate. My argument simply incorporates this historical fact as a premise. I argue that if the only reason government regulates private sexual relationships is because of the children such relationships produce, then why should government involve itself with the regulation of same-sex relationships? Same-sex relationships do not produce the thing that necessitates government involvement in the case of heterosexual unions. While there is a practical need to regulate heterosexual relationships, there is no practical need to regulate same-sex relationships anymore than there is a practical need to regulate friendships. Friendships and same-sex relationships may be good, but because those kinds of relationships do not serve the same function in society that heterosexual relationships serve, society need not—and indeed should not—treat them the same as they do heterosexual unions. Same-sex relationships have nothing to do with the purpose for which civil marriage is enacted; therefore, homosexual relationships are not entitled to the benefits of marriage.
Against this argument the same-sex proponent will object, “If the reason civil marriage exists is because of children, and if same-sex couples should be prohibited from marrying on the basis that they do not produce children, then shouldn’t opposite-sex couples who cannot or will not have children be prohibited from marrying as well?” This is a legitimate objection, and it deserves a thoughtful response:
While the government may issue marriage licenses to couples, they are not privileging the relationships of any particular individual(s); rather, they are privileging a particular kind of relationship; a relationship that they know from both experience and biology is capable of delivering on the State’s interest for regulating personal relationships: children. Will there be some couples within that group who cannot or choose not to produce children, and thus fail to fulfill the purpose for which the State agreed to regulate their relationship? Yes. Why, then, does the State issue marriage licenses to those couples?
The reasons are quite practical in nature. It would simply be too invasive, time-consuming, and infeasible on a practical level for the government to pre-screen every heterosexual couple applying for a marriage license to determine their ability/willingness to procreate. It would require medical testing, as well as a legal oath to procreate after being granted a marriage license. What would the State do is the medical test was inaccurate, or if a couple fails to produce a child within a certain period of time? Would they force them to divorce? It is much simpler to regulate a specific kind of relationship than it is to regulate each relationship in particular. Such an approach means a small percentage of marriages will not produce children, but the State knows that on par, privileging this particular kind of relationship will result in the production of an optimal number of socialized children.
One might respond, “If the State is willing to license couples to marry, even though they may not be able/willing to have children, then it is unfair to deny same-sex couples the right to marry on the basis that they are unable to have children. Both kinds of relationships are childless. If one can be privileged by the State—though childless—why can’t the other? After all, the number of same-sex couples wishing to wed is roughly similar to the number of childless heterosexual married couples. If the number of childless married couples is so insignificant that it does not concern the State, why should a comparable number of childless same-sex couples concern the State? Besides, allowing same-sex couples to marry will do nothing to change the number of opposite-sex couples who marry and produce children, so allowing same-sex couples to marry will do nothing to interfere with the State’s interest.”
My response is three-pronged. First, we have to remember why the State is in the marriage business: children. In the case of opposite-sex couples, the State knows children are both a possible and likely result of the union. In the case of same-sex couples, however, they know for certain that no children will result from the union. If the purpose for regulating personal relationships is the creation and rearing of children, and yet no children can be produced by a specific kind of relationship, why should the State involve itself in regulating that kind of relationship? As an analogy, consider a fisherman who lets down his net into the ocean. He knows some fish will escape his net, and yet he still casts his net because he knows it will still result in a great catch of fish nonetheless. But what if the fisherman’s net has a gaping hole at the bottom. Would it make sense for him to cast that net? No, because he knows it is not capable of catching any fish. And so it is with marriage. Regulating the relationships of opposite-sex couples does not guarantee that every couple they license will produce children, but they cast the net wide because they know that regulating that particular kind of relationship will still yield an optimal number of children. Regulating the relationship of same-sex couples, however, will not yield any children whatsoever. If the fisherman would not cast forth such a net, why should the State?
Secondly, marriage is designed to be a burden. The State burdens a couple with legal and social obligations in exchange for certain privileges such as tax breaks and social approval. Why do this? Because they have an interest in keeping a couple together. Why might they be interested in keeping a couple together? Is it because they believe in enduring love? No, it is for the sake of children! They are interested in the optimal socialization of children, and they have deemed that the best way for kids to be socialized is to be reared by the individuals who created them. Marriage obligations exist to help keep parents tied to their children (which is why up until recently, divorces were difficult to obtain).[1] What would the purpose be, then, to regulate the relationships of same-sex couples? If they do not produce children, there is no reason for the State to shackle them with legal and social obligations, nor to provide them with special privileges. This brings me to my third and final point.
The benefits of marriage are not the State’s way of “rewarding” couples for their love or commitment to one another. The benefits that accompany marriage are provided to encourage the couple to stay together so that they will produce and rear children together. If marriage benefits are provided for the sake of children, and same-sex couples cannot produce children, why should they be entitled to those benefits? It makes no sense to provide benefits to a group of individuals to encourage them to do X, when we know in advance that they are incapable of doing X. In fact, to do so would be unfair. To say same-sex couples are entitled to benefits of marriage even though they cannot deliver on the purpose for which those benefits are provided is like saying a healthy person is entitled to disability benefits just because they happen to want them. While same-sex couples may want the benefits of marriage, that in itself does not mean they ought to be given those benefits. Benefits must be deserved. Same-sex couples do not deserve the benefits of marriage — not because homosexuals as individuals are inferior to heterosexuals as individuals — but because same-sex relationships cannot deliver on the purpose for which those benefits are provided.
If you are interested, see my article “I Now Pronounce You Husband and Husband: An Argument Against Same-Sex Marriage” for a more detailed argument against same-sex marriage, and my response to additional objections.
[1]Many men and/or women have been “persuaded” to stay together because the legal consequences for divorce would be too great for them. A divorce may mean hefty alimony and child support payments, and the loss of one’s ability to be with their children to the extent they desire.
September 17, 2010 at 10:34 am
I think this argument against same-sex marriage is sound and seems to make the most sense of the all the arguments against same-sex marriage.
My question is how do we convince opponents of this view, that children really are the reason why governments grant benefits to heterosexual couples? Is documented anywhere? I can see opponents of this view nitpicking this argument unless it can be reasonably proven with some force.
Also, I hear mix answers on whether heterosexuals marriages and homosexual civil unions are offered the same benefits. Are they offered the same benefits?
LikeLike
September 17, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Jason,
Often times things are created for one purpose, but they end up serving another purpose. Our social security numbers, for example, are used to identify us for a myriad of things having nothing to do with retirement. Many medical advances began as unsuccessful applications in one area that prove to be successful in another area, such as penicilin, x-rays and Viagra.
The same is true of marriage. Though it began as a way of regulating child-bearing relationships, it now is used to perform all sorts of functions, such as pension benefits for life partners and determining who gets to visit you in the hospital.
I’m not sure why you’d think that the use of an invention should be limited to its original purpose. In fact, I don’t see what’s wrong with an invention being used only for purpose(s) totally unrelated to its original purpose.
Arthur
LikeLike
September 20, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Jeff,
I think it was Aristotle who said something to the effect that a truly wise man should be able to discern when to seek evidence, and when not to. I think this is one of those issues where only the foolish would seek evidence for the claim that governments have regulated private heterosexual relationships because such relationships typically produce children. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is extensive documentation available, though I cannot say I have searched for it myself. I do have a quote from Justice Cordy of the Massachusetts Supreme Court, from the landmark decision Goodridge v. Department of Public Health (2003) in which same-sex marriage was legalized in Massachusetts. In his dissent, Justice Cordy wrote:
“Paramount among its many important functions, the institution of marriage has systematically provided for the regulation of heterosexual behavior, brought order to the resulting procreation, and ensured a stable family structure in which children will be reared, educated, and socialized. … The institution of marriage provides the important legal and normative link between heterosexual intercourse and procreation on the one hand and family responsibilities on the other. The partners in a marriage are expected to engage in exclusive sexual relations, with children the probable result and paternity presumed. … The marital family is also the foremost setting for the education and socialization of children. Children learn about the world and their place in it primarily from those who raise them, and those children eventually grow up to exert some influence, great or small, positive or negative, on society. The institution of marriage encourages parents to remain committed to each other and to their children as they grow, thereby encouraging a stable venue for the education and socialization of children. … Civil marriage is the product of society’s critical need to manage procreation as the inevitable consequence of intercourse between members of the opposite sex. Procreation has always been at the root of marriage and the reasons for its existence as a social institution.”
As for whether civil unions have the same benefits as marriage, it depends on the state. In most states the benefits are nearly identical, and in a few states (if I recall) they are exactly the same. California is one such state.
Jason
LikeLike
September 20, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Arthur,
It is obvious that a number of things take on new and often unforeseen functions over time. Is marriage one of those things? Well, it could be. But as Frank Beckwith one quipped, we could also eat an ashtray, but that doesn’t make it food. The question is whether or not marriage has an intrinsic meaning to it, or whether it can be made to mean anything a society wants it to mean. If it has no intrinsic, natural meaning, then by all means make marriage whatever you want. Declare the purpose of marriage to be the government’s way of affirming sexual relationships, or society’s way of helping couples feel more secure in their relationship. We could allow all sorts of combinations count as marriage. We could even allow self-marriage for those who love themselves. I’m sure temporary marriages would also be a big hit—they expire after, say, 5 years. But if marriage has an intrinsic, natural purpose, then whatever else we may add to the concept of marriage, its core meaning must remain the controlling reason. And I think it is obvious what the natural purpose of marriage is: the bringing together of two sexual opposites into one sexual whole so that children can be produced and reared in a loving, stable, secure environment.
Jason
LikeLike
September 21, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Jeff S. asks:
In addition to what Jason wrote, you’ll find a convenient summary from California State University.
Also, according to Susan Treggiari’s Roman Marriage (New York, Oxford University Press, 1991), the word matrimonium, the root for the English marriage (matrimony) defines the institution’s main function (mater = mother). The implication being a man uniting with a woman in order to have children. Thus, the purpose of marriage is to produce legitimate children, that is, citizens producing new citizens. See also a synopsis of Women’s Life in Greece & Rome by Lefkowitz and Fant.
As Jason noted, there is a considerable body of literature demonstrating this.
Regards.
LikeLike
September 22, 2010 at 10:01 am
Thanks for weighing in, Scalia. What I would be interested in finding is legal documentation in both the USA and other countries, that actually spells out what should be obvious to all. For example, to find a law that makes it clear that the State saw a connection between marriage and childbearing/childrearing, or to find old judicial opinions that make the same point Justice Cordy made in Goodridge. Are you aware of any sources?
Jason
LikeLike
September 22, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Yes, there are a lot of them, but it requires a lot of reading. I’ll give you a few links and we can go from there.
Firstly, Roman decrees, heretofore referenced, make it clear State recognition of marriage is connected to the rearing of children.
Secondly, the Catholic Church’s influence upon European society with respect to marriage was paramount for a long time. Historical overviews made be read HERE and HERE.
The Geneva Marriage Ordinance of 1546 (with reference to previous ordinances issued in 1541 & 1543), imposed the dual requirements of state registration and church consecration to constitute marriage.
Although there is plenty of material available, I am not aware of any website that reproduces quotations from various Western legislatures tying marriage to children. However, a very good historical analysis that corresponds to what you’ve found may be found in this Concurring Opinion from a state supreme court’s rejection of same-sex marriages. Contained therein are quotations from territorial and state laws relating to marriage. A very good read.
I’ll see about hunting up some more online resources.
Best wishes.
LikeLike
September 23, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Jason, I’ll add a few more and stop for now. See George Contenau’s Everyday Life in Babylonia and Assyria (London. Edward Arnold Publishers Ltd., 1954), and A. Leo Oppenheim’s Ancient Mesopotamia (Chicago & London. The University of Chicago Press, 1964). The first step in creating a family was marriage. This was the husband’s only marriage unless his wife proved to be infertile.
See also The History of Human Marriage, by Edward Westermarck (available for free on Google Books). He makes numerous references to laws regulating marriages throughout the ancient world, and his views are, ahem, decidedly secular. 🙂
LikeLike
October 7, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Jason,
When using a historical narrative as the premise for an argument, one opens himself or herself to a potential trap – that of relying on an outdated model. Arthur hinted at this in his post, but I am coming at this from a different standpoint. When analyzed from a philosophical standpoint or based on natural law principles your argument is sound. However, it fails in the one arena that is currently tasked with making the decision related to this issue – that of the legal system.
Advances in medical technology have made it possible to “procreate” without a couple engaging in sexual intercourse (e.g. in vitro fertilization, surrogacy, etc.). In some of these cases, one or both of the parents who will be rearing the child are not the biological parents of the children. Without getting overly detailed where it does not matter, this has lead to disputes over the legal parents of the resulting children, the biological parent or the parent for which the child was “created.” Again to be concise, the courts (particularly in California) have decided that the legal parent is the parent for which the child was being “created.”
Based on this, same-sex couples are able to have and raise children of their own. In applying your reasoning to current conditions, same-sex couples have just as much reason to have access to a regulated relationship, i.e. marriage, as heterosexual couples.
To me, this is the hurdle that needs to be overcome in order for this argument to be compelling. Unfortunately, short of outlawing these types of reproductive technologies or a new legal decision regarding the legal parents in these situations, this will never be a compelling argument against same-sex marriage.
LikeLike
October 25, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Hi, Paco. Although you addressed your comments to Jason, I intended to reply nonetheless. However, my involvement in other threads and projects led me to forget about this one.
You write,
True, but how does this technological angle count against Jason’s argument? Prior to the technological advances you mention, couples were able to raise children via adoption. Since couples have always been able to adopt children, it appears arguing from medical science is superfluous.
Yes, but the same type of legal dispute occurs between natural and adoptive parents.
Per above, I think this is imprecise. Their ability to raise children isn’t “based on” medical science and court rulings stemming therefrom. A same-sex couple (ssc) may have had children through previous heterosexual relationships or via adoption.
The only difference, then, between you and Jason is what the courts rule; and what the courts rule will depend upon the philosophy of interpretation a judge utilizes when reviewing cases. Since our view of judicial philosophy asserts judges should interpret law, not make law, their rulings will reflect what legislatures enact.
Since your first paragraph acknowledges Jason’s argument is sound when viewed from philosophical or natural law principles, and since your medical technology observation is superfluous, it appears the “hurdle” you mention in your last paragraph is illusory.
Of course, there is another argument with respect to ssc and adoption (in vitro, surrogacy, etc.), but I again fail to see how that decides against Jason’s argument. As has been noted elsewhere:
Similarly, the fact ssc have the capacity to rear children does not imply society should equate that status with marriage. Children are created by heterosexual relationships, including the methods you mention. It is in the government’s best interest to grant privileges to an institution that maximizes the “socialization” (to use Jason’s word) of the next generation. Since children are the product of male-female relationships, the optimal environment for children is in a home wherein they who have brought them into the world are responsible for raising them to adulthood.
Having said that, my argument doesn’t stop there. I think Christians do themselves a disservice to excise the element of morality from their arguments. It is not my intention to elucidate that here (I have argued this elsewhere). Suffice it to say morality is the basis of all law and everybody, whether they are conscious of it or not, brings their moral worldview into the voting booth. Christians would do well to avoid trying to leave theirs at home.
Regards.
LikeLike
November 5, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Paco,
My argument is not based on history per se, by which I mean I don’t appeal to history to justify a particular definition of marriage. Indeed, I argue that marriage has an intrinsic, natural meaning that is wholly independent of the State. Marriage is logically prior to the State, and thus cannot be defined and redefined by the State. So why bring up history? It’s to show what should be obvious: the only reason governments privilege marriage is because of what marriages do for society: create and socialize the next generation.
As for the legal system, laws is a moral enterprise on its face, so the legal system must take morality into consideration. They should also consider philosophy and natural law. If laws are not based on or related to morality, philosophy, or natural law, then it is just a raw exercise of power, and leads to tyranny. Granted, the current trend is to ignore philosophy and natural law in law. So what do we do then? We argue the way I am arguing: given the reason the State is involved in the marriage business, there is no reason to include SSCs in the institution of marriage, and good reasons to specifically exclude them.
While SSCs are able to create children now with modern technology, they are necessarily dependent on both genders. But even if technology advances to the point where, for example, sperm cells could be created from a female’s stem cells and both genders would no longer be necessary to create a child, the fact remains that the State is not under compulsion to give legal recognition and benefits to every sort of parental arrangement just because they happen to be raising children. For example, we don’t give legal recognition and special privileges to single parents. Why? Because we don’t believe that arrangement is optimal for child rearing, and do not want to hold it up as an ideal by giving it State recognition. As Justice Sossman of the MA Supreme Court noted: “Reduced to its essence, the court’s opinion concludes that, because same-sex couples are now raising children, and withholding the benefits of civil marriage from their union makes it harder for them to raise those children, the State must therefore provide the benefits of civil marriage to same-sex couples just as it does to opposite-sex couples. Of course, many people are raising children outside the confines of traditional marriage, and, by definition, those children are being deprived of the various benefits that would flow if they were being raised in a household with married parents. That does not mean that the Legislature must accord the full benefits of marital status on every household raising children. … People are of course at liberty to raise their children in various family structures, as long as they are not literally harming their children by doing so. … That does not mean that the State is required to provide identical forms of encouragement, endorsement, and support to all of the infinite variety of household structures that a free society permits.”
Indeed, if the State needs to legally recognize and bless every sort of arrangement in which children are being raised, then what would we do if two brothers wanted to raise a child together? Should they be granted the right to marry and receive the benefits of marriage?
Jason
LikeLike
November 5, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Scalia,
I read all of the online resources you recommended. The best resource was Justice James M. Johnson’s concurring opinion in Andersen v. King County (MA Supreme Court). There were a few sections where he notes the historic link between marriage and procreation. I’ll quote them here for the sake of other readers:
“The unique and binary biological nature of marriage and its exclusive link with procreation and responsible child rearing has defined the institution at common law and in statutory codes and express constitutional provisions of many states.”
…
“The fundamental right of a man and woman to marry is linked with the
related fundamental right to procreate, as noted in Skinner. Id. at 541 (“[m]arriage
and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race”);
Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374, 98 S. Ct. 673, 54 L. Ed. 2d 618 (1978).”
…
“Here, there are numerous rational bases supporting the legislature’s reaffirmation of marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The complementary nature of the sexes and the unique procreative capacity of one man and one woman as a reproductive unit provide one obvious and nonarbitrary basis for recognizing such marriage. The binary character of marriage exists first because there are two sexes. A society mindful of the biologically unique nature of the marital relationship and its special capacity for procreation has ample justification for safeguarding this institution to promote procreation and a stable environment for raising children. Less stable homes equate to higher welfare and other burdens on the State.”
…
He quotes: “Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple.” Madsen, J., op. at 40. See Lewis, 378 N.J. Super. at 199 (Parrillo, J.A.D., concurring) (“the reasons justifying the civil marriage laws are inextricably linked to the fact that human sexual intercourse between a man and a woman frequently results in pregnancy and childbirth . . . that fact lies at the core of why society fashioned the institution of marriage in the first place.”); Hernandez, 2006 N.Y. slip op. 5239, at *5, 2006 N.Y. LEXIS 1836, at *6 (Observing that “the vast majority of children are born as a result of a sexual relationship between man and a woman” and noting “the undisputed assumption that marriage is important to the welfare of children.”).”
…
“Only opposite-sex couples are capable of intentional, unassisted procreation,
unlike same-sex couples. Unlike same-sex couples, only opposite-sex couples may
experience unintentional or unplanned procreation. State sanctioned marriage as a
union of one man and one woman encourages couples to enter into a stable
relationship prior to having children and to remain committed to one another in the
relationship for the raising of children, planned or otherwise. Although society’s continuing existence depends upon children, marriage has never been considered as solely a mechanism to increase the number of births. Modern circumstances confirm that marriage is needed in today’s society more than ever. As amicus notes: widespread contraceptive and abortion rights may actually make more salient, not less, the traditional role of marriage in encouraging men and women to make the next generation that society needs. The more legal, cultural, and technological choice individuals have about whether or not to have children, the more need there is for a social institution that encourages men and women to have babies together, and creates the conditions under which those children are likely to get the best care. Amicus of Families Northwest at 14-15.”
…
“It was reasonable for the Washington Legislature to conclude that the biological nature of one man and one woman as a reproductive unit provides an objective and nonarbitrary basis for defining marriage. The State’s interests in support of marriage would be undermined if marriage were so malleable in meaning as to include any consensual relationship claimed to be “‘exclusive and permanent.’” Dissent (Fairhurst, J.) at 29 (quoting Goodridge, 440 Mass. at 332).”
…
“See Lewis, 378 N.J. Super. at 197 (Parrillo, J.A.D., concurring) (“Marriage’s vital purpose is not to mandate procreation but to control or ameliorate its consequences—the so-called ‘private welfare’ purpose. To maintain otherwise is to ignore procreation’s centrality to marriage.”).”
…
“Other recent authorities have recognized the State’s compelling interest in marriage as the union of one man and one woman, particularly in light of its exclusive link to procreation and child rearing. As one court noted, “it seems beyond dispute that the state has a compelling interest in encouraging and fostering procreation of the race and providing status and stability to the environment in which children are raised. This has always been one of society’s paramount goals.” Adams v. Howerton, 486 F. Supp. 1119, 1124 (C.D. Cal. 1980) (rejecting the claim that homosexual unions should be recognized as marriages for immigration purposes), aff’d on other grounds, 673 F.2d 1036 (9th Cir. 1982).
“The legislature correctly held the State has compelling governmental interests to promote marriage as the union of one man and one woman. Those compelling interests include interests considered in the “rational basis” discussion, supra, pp. 29-42, and were summarized by the legislature itself (Laws of 1998, ch. 1, § 2). These compelling interests are well identified in United States Supreme Court decisions considering marriage, which are compelling and properly 52 Goodridge, 440 Mass. at 385 (Cordy, J., dissenting) (“It is difficult to imagine a State purpose more important and legitimate than ensuring, promoting, and supporting an optimal social structure within which to bear and raise children. At the very least, the marriage statute continues to serve this important State purpose.”).”
Jason
LikeLike
February 4, 2012 at 10:26 am
[…] I discovered an article that went into detail about this, but the response to the "childless couples objection" seems more like the writer was […]
LikeLike
July 11, 2012 at 9:08 pm
You’ve missed a major point. It’s not about children. Marriage is about love. Even the word itself has nothing to do with procreation. Marriage is a joining of two. Children is something wonderful that sometimes comes from that love, but not always. I love my Husband and I am a man. He loves me. It’s not about sex, it’s not about children, it’s about joining together for life, and whatever that means for you.
If the right to marry were ended today, there would still be too many children for the world to raise up. It’s true. How many have you adopted I wonder? because society will go on, I assure you.
LikeLike
July 11, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Okay. You’ve missed another HUGE point.
The ‘STATE” cares only about making sure that everyone can pay for their lives and be comfortable. Not that they have more children. The “states’ interest is not in the fact that more children are born.
If a couple is created, they have two incomes. Presto. They are more stable. That is why there are marriages. Your religious dogma says otherwise.
I love you. I do sincerely wish that you would understand that a spouse’s love is a spouse’s love, regardless of the gender of that spouse.
Much Love
Christopher
LikeLike
July 12, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Christopher,
Yours is a major historical revisionism. Love may be be a major motivation for couples to get married, but it’s not the reason governments regulate marriages. They don’t care who loves who, or who is having sex with whom. They care about the children that are likely to result from the union. If it were not for children, there would be no such public institution called “marriage.”
Jason
LikeLike
July 12, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Christopher, if you think marriage is about love, then why would you care whether or not the government allows same-sex couples to marry since the legal institution can neither create nor sustain a loving relationship. The love that is experienced by same-sex couples does not depend on the state’s recognition and sanction of their relationship, so why be so concerned that the state do so? I would submit to you, based on the testimony of so many same-sex couples, that the reason you think same-sex couples should be allowed to marry has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with social respect.
Jason
LikeLiked by 1 person
October 28, 2012 at 3:54 pm
“If it were not for children, there would be no such public institution called ‘marriage.'”
Marriage is only considered a “public institution” due to marriage licensing, which is a relatively young concept in the realm of marriage, with government marriage licensing being a still younger concept.
If it weren’t for government licensing of marriages, marriage would still be only in the realm of religion. It is due to this licensing, and the benefits prescribed by law to married couples, that marriage is a “public institution”. So then the question needs to be asked: why did licensing of marriages even begin? Your focus on children overshadows why governments got involved in marriage to begin with.
LikeLike
October 29, 2012 at 9:33 am
Kenneth,
Public approval has always been part of marriage. That’s why there are people present who serve as witnesses to the marriage. It doesn’t have to be a piece of paper.
Why should government involve itself in regulating marriage apart from the general concern for children? Why did they start issuing licenses? Why did they get into this business on your view? Was it because they wanted to know who was having sex with whom? Was it because they wanted to register the amount of public love? The only reason to be involved is because heterosexual unions produce children, and the state has a vested interest in both the production and rearing of children.
Jason
LikeLike
October 29, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Jason, it isn’t my view as to why licensing started and why government got involved in licensing marriages. It’s a matter of historical fact. Here’s a brief overview:
1. Marriage licensing started with churches as a means of bypassing the banns requirement.
2. Government started getting involved to answer the concern about clandestine marriages (commonly known as elopements). Google Lord Hardwicke’s Marrage Act for details. It basically established into the civil code the marriage requirements already used by the church.
3. In the United States civil licensing didn’t start with Lord Hardwicke’s act, as it applied only to Great Britain and not the colonies. Civil licensing in the US began in the middle of the 19th century to shut down interracial marriages, heterosexual interracial marriages.
That is the history of the matter. Government didn’t get involved in marriages for the sake of children. In the US, the various State governments that chose to get involved did so to protect the white gene pool. Licensing only continues because the license provides a government-certified record of a valid marriage, but that was purely a side-effect of its initial racist origins in the US.
LikeLike
November 6, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Kenneth,
You are not getting it. The issue is not licensing, but social approval.
Society has a vested interest in marriages, and the interest is in children. If you disagree, then explain to me why governments don’t regulate friendships.
And it’s not fair to make a distinction between religion and state prior to America since there was no distinction in other cultures. Religious rituals were civic rituals.
Jason
LikeLike
November 6, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Governments have tried to regulate friendships in numerous ways, just not in any direct method wherein any particular government was openly declaring itself to be regulating friendships. Segregation comes to mind, as do the various laws, now unenforceable, that attempted to criminalize fornication. And let’s also not forget about the McCarthy era and what occurred then. Regulation of friendships? Not explicitly, but one could easily argue that such laws and actions did have such implicit regulation.
The issue is perfectly about licensing, as it is only through licensing that the governments within the United States can provide any kind of regulation on relationships. Without licensing, the government must defer its definition of marriage to other organizations. Without licensing, the government has no solid ability to regulate and control marriage.
With the passage of Lord Hardwicke’s Marriage Act, the Parliament of the United Kingdom removed from the Church of England the authority to say who is and is not married and placed such definition under civil control. As such the distinction between religion and state with regard to marriage is perfectly valid. This is especially true given that the United States is not a theocracy.
You might consider it unfair to make such a distinction, but to state that government can regulate marriage implies in such a statement that religion and state are distinct. And the two have been considered separate and distinct for at least the last 1,000 years. True that the church, namely the Catholic Church, was permitted to exercise their own courts within the sovereign lands of a state and thus exercised some civil and criminal authority, but that merely meant a dual sovereignty existed, one based on the laws and taxes of a government (typically monarchical) and another based on the laws of a particular religion. They may have been, by appearance, one in the same, but they were still completely distinct. After all when the King died, the Cardinal did not assume the throne.
LikeLike
May 16, 2013 at 12:08 pm
[…] Same-Sex Marriage: Answering the “Childless Couples” Objection […]
LikeLike
December 2, 2013 at 8:04 am
I just have to comment on this inane essay. The government never had interest in marriage or martial rights until long after the invention of the institution. In its origins we see marriage as a religious institution, and as a religious body may be concerned children or new devout members is an obvious reason for ecclesiastical sanctions of love-based unions. Now that being said, the government had more devious reasons for becoming involved in martial contracts, see if we address the idea out of context we could believe that every government regulates marriage for the same purposes and in the same manner, but they don’t, in some countries multiple wives per husband are okay, but most men in these locales still have only one wife, because dowry after dowry can leave oneself broke. Still in other locales, it is entirely a privately regulated social not legal contract bestowing very little in the way of actual benefits and presided over by persons from a range of chairs of power, religious leaders, clan heads, even militia generals, and in western culture sometimes ship captains, so why the switch from religion as the sole management of marital agreements to social regulation? Well, here is an explanation from a historian: http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-LB-23836
Also; let’s evaluate it ourselves, the institution of state regulation in marriage didn’t come around until the U.S. saw need and utility in the effort, but what changes made the U.S. so different that it needed to set this precedent in society? Well our aforementioned historian states regulation of pensions and prevarication of polygamist lifestyle, but it goes deeper than that, see the U.S. was a new country in a lot of ways, for one we had no state endorsed religion so one couldn’t presume that searching your local catholic churches library would give you a definitive answer on whether the wife you were about to take was in fact ‘decent’ and ‘unmolested.’ For if you did you might find later on that she had been married but under watch of another church, and in those times much the same as ancient times and modern times in some commonwealths, a wife was not a friend and partner but property, and therefore laying with another mans wife was punishable by law. Not to mention a litany of other very big reasons; the risks posed to a missionary trying to establish a Church of England presence in the French commonwealth’s colonial territory, or a Catholic church outside of Spain’s; the fact that black men at this time period were not regarded as human beings and therefore marrying one was abhorrent; that a woman could not own property unless she was a widow tending her dead husbands land; oh and the biggest one if you paid to marry a woman or had a deal with her father and she ran away, you needed proof to get your property back. So there are a lot of reasons why marriage became a social concern rather than an ecclesiastical one, but one of the very smallest was children and their well-being, especially in a time when laws had to be written as to how badly one could beat your own children, and how long you could force them to work to pay your bills. The truth is our country had devious reasons for regulating marriage like blocking a new religions claim to polygamy, and creating a system that allowed men (pronounced white, rich, and greedy sons-of-b******) to protect their property (read wives) from freedom and ideas equally damaging to their ends as other liberal/progressive concepts, so next time you try to point to tradition as why marriage shouldn’t change, think about how your wife might react to you equating her to property.
Now that we have a clear understanding of the historic context of marriage, let us evaluate the modern context, wherein two adults promise the other to steadily protect the happiness, health, and vivacious quality of one another and the thereby established married couple. Now in modern times divorce does occur at alarming rates, so do cancers, diseases, car accidents, bombings, wars, over-consumption of many intoxicants, and simple stupid over use of the freedom of speech with no regard to the consequences. Does this cause us as humans to outlaw: the first amendment; beer, tobacco, pornography, or freedom to bear children; guns/weapons; explosives; automobiles; artificial sweeteners; or cell phones; nope all are still legal, so why should marriage not be. There are plenty of excuses why people don’t want homosexuals to marry but the only truth is that people fear the new, two men co-parenting has occurred in many contexts historically, from a pair of brothers raising one’s children on a family farm after the mother died in child birth, to royal children having little in way of their fathers love and a man-at-arms being the other father figure. It takes a village to raise children, no matter the era, and the big issue that people have with gay and lesbian couples getting married isn’t the lack of procreation, it is the next right bestowed on the least favorite group of the year right after marriage, child rearing, and the last thing ‘traditionalists’ want is more children figuring out that queers are not the devils kin, because then they might be okay with the idea that gay is okay, and there might just be more self-identified homosexuals in a few years. That just doesn’t work for the bigoted minds in charge of religion, does it? So rather than questioning whether or not two men or two women can rear children cooperatively in your condescending poorly founded argument or canned response; which which ever you refer to it as, simply state that you will never regardless of proof give accept that gay parents can do a good job and thusly will use a reductive, pedantic, and presumptuous argument to effort preventing such a thing happening. It is okay we all know you are bigoted and want us to live half lives because you believe in a 6000 year old fairy tales way of things working, we don’t need you to lie to make us feel better.
Sincerely, a happily married gay man who will one day become or cause the creation of a woeful widower.
LikeLike
October 14, 2020 at 5:07 pm
The “major point” is whatever Jason, as the blog administrator, chooses to talk about. You don’t critique a discussion facilitator by accusing him of “missing” a point he didn’t choose to address.
LikeLike
September 12, 2025 at 3:10 pm
Well argued, except for one thing: the State also has an interest in the property of couples who are married, not just their children. History is replete with marriages made solely for the purpose of preserving property within families or transferring property between families. This is of equal importance to procreation, and applies as well to same sex as to heterosexual couples.
LikeLike