Most discussions of religion entail foregone conclusions in search of anything resembling justification. The goal of the participants is not to discover truth, but to leave the conversation with the same beliefs they came with. We can do better. Our beliefs should be properly justified – not just asserted based on what we would like to be true – and our desire for truth must outweigh our desire to be right.
March 21, 2014
Thinking to Believe 
March 21, 2014 at 10:46 am
Yes! A short post, but brimming with vital wisdom with the potential to yield an avalanche of fruit.
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March 21, 2014 at 11:31 pm
I’ve found the goal in most cases, is to prove your right and the other guy is wrong, very few people are searching for the truth IMO. Trouble is different religions each have writings saying there religion is right and the others are wrong. Then different denominations have different interpretations of the same writings saying there denomination is right and the others are wrong.
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March 21, 2014 at 11:52 pm
Well said. I can add that our attitudes should perhaps also be to have a willingness to test every argument against the Word and the voice of the Holy Spirit. I am not sure if this would be considered the correct terms, but I found my belief “evolve” as I engage in conversations with various people around a particular topic. You have to be open to grow in this way though.
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March 22, 2014 at 7:48 pm
This is very noble. However, I think part of truth seeking is leaving with what you came believing. The discussion isn’t the point. It’s the time, post-discussion/debate/argument where one who seeks truth will likely find it. Time to reflect, consider, and reconsider after the fact is essential, even if up front, a person stubbornly holds to a position against truth.
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March 23, 2014 at 7:49 am
Belief can only be justified by knowledge. Jonas Salk had a belief that a vaccine for polio could be found, the proof of the belief was when the knowledge of vaccine was proved; at that point “belief” vanished, replaced by knowledge. Why does the bible say that “the Truth shall set you free”? Because knowledge is truth and only the truth of knowledge can set you free.
Why does the bible say: “prove all things”? Don’t suppress the Spirit, and don’t stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don’t be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what’s good. In other words “Prove all things”. 1 Thes 5:21
What do forty bible Proverbs say about knowledge in so many ways?
To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
You’ll only hear true and right words from my mouth; not one syllable will be twisted or skewed. You’ll recognize this as true—you with open minds; truth-ready minds will see it at once. They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. Receive instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge
knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.
Salk’s belief was justified by knowledge and when he found it he had his reward and his expectation was assured.
“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You took the key of knowledge, but instead of unlocking doors, you locked them. You won’t go in yourself, and won’t let anyone else in either.” Lk 11:52
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March 24, 2014 at 10:25 am
LTG, that’s a pretty good dissertation on knowledge. If I didn’t know any better, I thought you were a believer !
I don’t know where you got the impression that the Christian belief is some pie in the sky belief that is not grounded in reality. The very scriptures you quote in Proverbs are dear to us and provide a solid foundation for our faith.
The Proverbs provide a lot of practical wisdom as you have shown. I would assume by your quoting of them that you agree that these writings are true and contain knowledge.
What do you think of this verse :
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
How do you interpret this verse ? Who is “the LORD”
Naz
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March 24, 2014 at 6:26 pm
Naz: And you won’t mind this reading too much as it contains only 679 words: lol
He is Lord who parts the womb; he is the boss who Lords over his employees; he is Lord who has the gold and makes the rules; he is Lord who defeats the enemy; he is Lord who own the lands; he is Lord who holds your life in his hand to dispense or deny at his will; one man Lords it over other men; there is nothing mysterious about Lord.
According to the Oxford Dictionary of English, the etymology of the word can be traced back to the Old English word hlāford which originated from hlāfweard meaning “bread keeper” or “loaf-ward”, reflecting the Germanic tribal custom of a chieftain providing food for his followers.
According to the Original Greek language translation in Biblical Manuscripts, the word Lord, which is used 722 times in the New Testament, is kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord).
Baal, or Hadad, among the Caananites and most pre-monotheistic religion Semites was “The Lord” with whom only priests were allowed to speak.
The earliest recorded use of Lord in the English language in a religious context was by English Bible translators such as Bede.(AKA Saint Bede or the Venerable Bede. In 1899, Bede was made a Doctor of the Church by Leo XIII, a position of theological significance.
The most common error is the confusion of terms of address with titles. This probably comes from a desire to do all honor to our rulers and fellow subjects, and sometimes the desire to make sure that everyone is aware of every detail of everyone’s personal precedence.
Titles include: King, Queen, Crown Prince, Crown Princess, Prince, Princess, Duke, Duchess, Count, Countess, Viscount, Viscountess, Master, Mistress, Sir, Dame, Thegn, Bannthegn, Baron, Baroness, Lord, Lady. (And their acceptable other language equivalents.)
Until the creation of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom (early 21st century), certain judges sat in the House of Lords by virtue of holding life peerages. They were known collectively as the Law Lords.
There are plenty of things in the Bible of great worth, the Proverbs being one and the Gsopels of Jesus being another. All one has to do to study the Bible in depth is to delete the supernatural and the magic of myth and miracle to increase understanding that far surpasses the common Christian understanding.
Understanding is also significantly increased when common idioms, metaphorical phrases and figures of speech such as similes are used and understood by the reader. This last understanding of language is most obvious in understanding, for example, what Ham really did when Noah and his wife were drunk in their tent and for which the son of Ham, Canaan was accursed by Noah. Most Christians have no idea of what Ham actually did in Genesis 9: 20-27 and why his Ftaher would have cursed the son of Ham.
This I referred to back in March last year when I said:”I don’t know how you can say that I reject pieces of the bible, I don’t reject them, I only interpret them perfectly; the rejection you talk about is that you disagree with my interpretation the same as the clergy (Scribes & Pharisees) disagreed with Jesus interpretation because they would have had to admit they had been wrong all their life and goodness knows how difficult it is to admit when you are wrong but here is quote you may be able to digest, eat as it were like John and Ezekiel, as the taste in your mouth will be like honey but in your belly (mind) it will be bitter. Belly means mind, don’t you think? I reject the supernaturalist’s(Christian) view. The whole bible is great but you have to understand it which I believe few Christians do. Check this out in Proverbs: Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. I accept both Proverbs because both are true; do you accept them both and why?
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March 25, 2014 at 5:52 am
I know the title LORD can be used in a variety of ways and have different connotations, but in the context of the book of Proverbs,
Who is “the Lord” that King Solomon is talking about ?
If you are diligent in your interpretation you must prove your answer by sighting other verses in Proverbs where the title “LORD” is referenced.
Prove all things………
Naz
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March 25, 2014 at 2:33 pm
“Prove all things” to yourself, “hold fast that which is good(true)”; it does not mean “prove all things” to others. I have no idea what “Lord” Solomon was talking about; he could have been referring to himself since he held life and death in his command and would have been aware of that as he made many judgment calls as the King.
Secondly, the object of the Proverbs I cited was about Knowledge not Lord.
You may be able to prove to yourself what “Lord”, Solomon was talking about in this particular instance. There is an old Proverb that “If you put yourself in perishing situation you may very well perish; thus, the “situation” itself may very well be the Lord to fear like Gravity so don’t go to close to the edge of the cliff. For example going out of bounds on the ski slopes because of avalanche or other out-of-bound hazards has resulted in deaths for many who went against the sign warnings or even against their gut instincts and intuition.
I believe fear of death itself is “Lord” enough to begin understanding Wisdom but fear of the supernatural, not so much.the importance of knowledge compared to the importance of belief.
Just as an aside, Proverbs also explains how to answer prayer in a unique message. “Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in the power of your hand to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, ‘Go, and come back, and tomorrow I will give it,’ when you have it with you,” (Prov. 3:27,28, NKJ).
IN OTHER WORDS:
“Never walk away from someone who deserves help;
your hand is God’s hand(The Hand of Good) for that person.
Don’t tell your neighbor ‘Maybe some other time’
or ‘Try me tomorrow’
when the money’s right there in your pocket”.
Read his need even if he doesn’t ask, for shame, modesty or humility; and, whether he asks or not, discern the matter and put your thoughts into action. The power of joy will well up inside of you and your Wisdom will increase, your compensation will return to you in many ways..
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March 26, 2014 at 6:50 am
“I have no idea what “Lord” Solomon was talking about…”
Since the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, I would say it’s pretty crucial to know what LORD Solomon is referring to rather than just blowing it off. But as usual, you skirted the question and went off on a tangent.
Let me show by the book of Proverbs Who the LORD is..there are only a few verses in Proverbs about the LORD 🙂
Pro_1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro_1:29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
Pro_2:5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.
Pro_2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;
Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro_3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.
Pro_3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
Pro_3:11 My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline or be weary of his reproof,
Pro_3:12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Pro_3:19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens;
Pro_3:26 for the LORD will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught.
Pro_3:32 for the devious person is an abomination to the LORD, but the upright are in his confidence.
Pro_3:33 The LORD’s curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous.
Pro_5:21 For a man’s ways are before the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his paths.
Pro_6:16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
Pro_8:13 The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
Pro_8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Pro_8:35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD,
Pro_9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
Pro_10:3 The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.
Pro_10:22 The blessing of the LORD makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it.
Pro_10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs life, but the years of the wicked will be short.
Pro_10:29 The way of the LORD is a stronghold to the blameless, but destruction to evildoers.
Pro_11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.
Pro_11:20 Those of crooked heart are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are his delight.
Pro_12:2 A good man obtains favor from the LORD, but a man of evil devices he condemns.
Pro_12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
Pro_14:2 Whoever walks in uprightness fears the LORD, but he who is devious in his ways despises him.
Pro_14:26 In the fear of the LORD one has strong confidence, and his children will have a refuge.
Pro_14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, that one may turn away from the snares of death.
Pro_15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
Pro_15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, but the prayer of the upright is acceptable to him.
Pro_15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, but he loves him who pursues righteousness.
Pro_15:11 Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD; how much more the hearts of the children of man!
Pro_15:16 Better is a little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble with it.
Pro_15:25 The LORD tears down the house of the proud but maintains the widow’s boundaries.
Pro_15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD, but gracious words are pure.
Pro_15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Pro_15:33 The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor.
Pro_16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
Pro_16:2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
Pro_16:3 Commit your work to the LORD, and your plans will be established.
Pro_16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Pro_16:5 Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.
Pro_16:6 By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one turns away from evil.
Pro_16:7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
Pro_16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.
Pro_16:11 A just balance and scales are the LORD’s; all the weights in the bag are his work.
Pro_16:20 Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.
Pro_16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Pro_17:3 The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.
Pro_17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.
Pro_18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe.
Pro_18:22 He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD.
Pro_19:3 When a man’s folly brings his way to ruin, his heart rages against the LORD.
Pro_19:14 House and wealth are inherited from fathers, but a prudent wife is from the LORD.
Pro_19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.
Pro_19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.
Pro_19:23 The fear of the LORD leads to life, and whoever has it rests satisfied; he will not be visited by harm.
Pro_20:10 Unequal weights and unequal measures are both alike an abomination to the LORD.
Pro_20:12 The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both.
Pro_20:22 Do not say, “I will repay evil”; wait for the LORD, and he will deliver you.
Pro_20:23 Unequal weights are an abomination to the LORD, and false scales are not good.
Pro_20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?
Pro_20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts.
Pro_21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Pro_21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart.
Pro_21:3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Pro_21:30 No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the LORD.
Pro_21:31 The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the LORD.
Pro_22:2 The rich and the poor meet together; the LORD is the maker of them all.
Pro_22:4 The reward for humility and fear of the LORD is riches and honor and life.
Pro_22:12 The eyes of the LORD keep watch over knowledge, but he overthrows the words of the traitor.
Pro_22:14 The mouth of forbidden women is a deep pit; he with whom the LORD is angry will fall into it.
Pro_22:19 That your trust may be in the LORD, I have made them known to you today, even to you.
Pro_22:23 for the LORD will plead their cause and rob of life those who rob them.
Pro_23:17 Let not your heart envy sinners, but continue in the fear of the LORD all the day.
Pro_24:18 lest the LORD see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.
Pro_24:21 My son, fear the LORD and the king, and do not join with those who do otherwise,
Pro_25:22 for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
Pro_28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD understand it completely.
Pro_28:14 Blessed is the one who fears the LORD always, but whoever hardens his heart will fall into calamity.
Pro_28:25 A greedy man stirs up strife, but the one who trusts in the LORD will be enriched.
Pro_29:13 The poor man and the oppressor meet together; the LORD gives light to the eyes of both.
Pro_29:25 The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is safe.
Pro_29:26 Many seek the face of a ruler, but it is from the LORD that a man gets justice.
Pro_30:9 lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the LORD?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.
Pro_31:30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
It would be clear to a young child that the LORD that is referred to in these passages is the Creator God which you deny.
Pro_22:2 The rich and the poor meet together; the LORD is the maker of them all.
I stress the word “maker” here. There is no other reasonable way to understand this verse. Who else could be given the title of the maker of all persons ?
To deny that the LORD of Proverbs is Almighty God is intellectual dishonesty. I have no problem if you simply do not believe God exists, but to take the supernatural God out of Proverbs or any other book of the bible is incomprehensible and puts into question your rational faculties as a human being. How can you even read this book ? Do you actually read the bible ?
If I were an atheist I would not be taking any wisdom from the bible. I would be forced to reject the entire book as “fairy tales” since it is filled with references to God and the supernatural. Most atheists do this. You on the other hand commit textual and intellectual suicide by redefining God as “good”, as you have been known to do, and removing the supernatural aspect of His being within its pages.
I know you’re going to respond and blast me, go ahead. I don’t think anybody on this blog with any common sense would agree with your position, atheist or not.
You deny the God and the bible and use the very Holy scriptures about Him to do it……..please…….
I’m done.
One more thing….I don’t want to here about how the “clergy” distorted the bible…no one buys that conspiracy theory.
Naz
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March 26, 2014 at 12:11 pm
“If I were an atheist I would not be taking any wisdom from the bible. I would be forced to reject the entire book as “fairy tales” since it is filled with references to God and the supernatural.”
Can you please explain then how the God of Moses and all the references in the bible about the same God is not supernatural and not demonstrated by magic through Prophet Magicians? As Moses demonstrated to Pharoah when God told him to do a miracle with magic with the staff that turned into a snake? Show me your intellectual honesty. I asked you this before but you cannot because you cannot regardless of your deliberate suspension of disbelief. Will you again remain silent about this magical God, this fairy tale God of your ancestors??
The bible says:
Exodus: 8-9 Then God spoke to Moses and Aaron. He said, “When Pharaoh speaks to you and says, ‘Prove yourselves. Perform a miracle,’ then tell Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down in front of Pharaoh: It will turn into a snake.’”
10 Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did what God commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his servants, and it turned into a snake.
11-12 Pharaoh called in his wise men and sorcerers. The magicians of Egypt did the same thing by their incantations: each man threw down his staff and they all turned into snakes.
That statement simply shows the limitations of your mind. First of all I am not under the illusion that humans have come into existence based on anything they have done nor am I convicted that life itself has come from sources made by mankind. What I am saying is that however life has come it is nothing personal; I do not believe there is any entity outside your imagination that gives one iota for you or for me or for the ant crawling on the ground or the worm wiggling under the ground or the ebola virus that destroys 90% of the humans it comes into contact with. You blame this all on a personal God and the killing viruses because of sin.
You imagine that a divine God want a personal relationship with you. But if we talk about consciousness and the laws of nature, we won’t be talking about the God that most religionists believe in. Which is a personal God who hears our prayers and occasionally answers them.
Because a God that our neighbors believe in is essentially an invisible person, a creator deity, who created the universe to have a (theistic) relationship with one species of life.
And he’s got galaxy upon galaxy to attend to but he’s especially concerned with what we do, and he’s especially concerned with what we do when naked. And he almost certainly disapproves of homosexuality and he’s created this cosmos as a vast laboratory in which to test our powers of credulity. And the test is this: Can you believe in this God on bad evidence, which is to say on faith? And if you can, you will win an eternity of happiness after you die.
Thus theism is the height of religious insanity based not on the truth of the God(s) incented in their thousands since the year dot but by egotistic human wannabe prophets who used magic to put themselves above their brethren.
Well I am here to tell you that you are not above anyone else because of any God; the only thing that sets you apart from others will be the virtues you live by, the righteouness you espouse and your treatment of others with whom you come into contact.
Now you have only proven to me that the God you claim to believe in and follow ,presumeably, i not much of a God to follow based on your commentaries throughout the times you have commented because most of your commentaries have been derogatory and denigrating from someone who tries to show off his pseudo God knowledge and biblical skills about something you cannot possibly know. Let me ask you. Do you ever read the bible?
Even the God of the Bible only communicated to certain people through wannabe psychic prophets. The God to whom Solomon built his mighty temple talked to him giving him wonderful compliments through prophets which prophets themselves proved themselves liars and one such account is given in recounting the life and wealth and times of King Solomon. 1 Kings 13: Read it for yourself:
14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.
15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.
16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:
17 For it was said to me by the word of the Lord, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.
18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.
19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.
20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back:
21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,
22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.
26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord: therefore the Lord hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake unto him.
If you want to be a friend you can just shake your God Believing Fist in someone’s face and say you’re going to be my friend and believe what I say; did you get your wife that way? I didn’t get my wife hat way. I keep her that way but I didn’t get her that way.
You have never shown yourself friendly since your first comments, you showed neutrality to continue the conversatin until you could not argue your cause in a friendly argumentative way so you pounced, became angry, and negative and succeeded only in showing the God of your real invisible self, through your words, not as a God but as a Goat.
You say “I’m done” too many times. You’ll be done when you accept that there was nothing supernatural about Jesus or the Father he constantly referenced.
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March 26, 2014 at 1:07 pm
“Can you please explain then how the God of Moses and all the references in the bible about the same God is not supernatural and not demonstrated by magic through Prophet Magicians?”
I don’t know why you’re hung up on this magician thing ?
The incident with Moses and the sorcerers shows us there is a supernatural element to the spiritual world and there is good and evil in that realm as well. I have no problem with the sorcerers being able to perform these miracles as we know that the Egyptians worshiped many false gods and called on them. Instead of dismissing this as “magic tricks” you should take it at face value and realize there is power of God and the power of Satan at work in the world. Sometimes, not always, it takes on miraculous proportions as with this snake incident. The best part is when Moses’ snake eats Pharaoh’s snakes. There is a message in that as well.
I’m not going to go through every single miracle, but how could Moses, by magic, split the Red Sea so the Israelites can walk through on dry ground ? From my point of view, if God can create the universe, how difficult is it for him to turn a staff into a snake ? or turn water into wine ? It’s really not a big deal ? I know people who have been healed of serious illnesses by prayer, again, no big deal ? I don’t dwell on these things, its not the focus of our belief, Jesus is.
By the way, I never claimed to be righteous in myself and although my words have been harsh at times, so be it. I am who I am and I’m not going to put on a false piety to try and win you over. You may judge me as you wish, but you’re not my judge. Enough said.
Now that I answered your question, can you tell me :
Who is the LORD of the book of Proverbs ?
Naz
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March 26, 2014 at 3:26 pm
I don’t know why you’re hung up on this magician thing ?
if God can create the universe, how difficult is it for him to turn a staff into a snake ? or turn water into wine ? It’s really not a big deal ?
But that’s just the problem Naz; The staff and the snake is magic and that’s why the other court magicians, AKA sorcerers just like magicians, also known as Prophets were able to do the same; nothing to do with good or evil but obviously the writer had a bias for Moses so it is no small wonder that Moses snakes turned and ate the rivals snakes; he had to come out of the trivkery from his God smelling like a rose so to speak. It is magic; and,
You had to start your premise by saying: “If God can create the universe…..A BIG “IF” ..or ‘turn water into wine’ is no big deal” Turning water into wine IS no big deal, man has been doing that for centuries and today tons of it is still turned into wine and consumed.
The Big Deal is when you assume hocus pocus, poof, poof ! and there you have water into wine. Or Poof, Poof ! and out of thin air you pluck fishes and bread. This doesn’t happen today and it never happened two thousand years ago either. This is the knid of nonsense one must eliminate out of one’s reading and let common sense guide for awhile instead of clerical nonsense whose primary goal is to keep one in belief just as the goal of the prophets and magicians and sorcerers of old had the same goal in order to assure and augment their position in the King’s court which the Kings were the original leaders of the people and the courts, the community centres, churches of the masses.
Sure I can explain the Lord, the God of Proverbs and the bible in general but it will take some time to tell you the story of man civilizing.
You have to remember that all language derives from a person, all concepts derive from a person as does all religion, all things divine, all things spiritual, virtuous, desciptions of Good and Evil. But where these things come from or how they started, who knows? None of us can claim to be the creators of honor, humility, compassion, love, joy, sadness, emotions, understanding, wisdom and because we cannot claim them they seem to have always been with us, so what we can and do create are the symbols, in words and caricatures, to describe the concepts.
It is instinctual for us to exclaim “thank you” when something profound and good happens to us or ARRRGGGGHH when something profound and not so good happens. We credit and debit the caricature concepts accordingly. All animals elicit seemingly involuntary sounds in frightful situations and sounds of gleeful play but we don’t imagine the dogs at play are thanking the Dog God or the frightened squealing rabbit thinks the Rabbit Devil is bitiing them.
Religious preachings and teachings are based purely on belief and nothing that religion says is based on knowledge; otherwise, it wouldn’t be a belief system, it would be a knowledge system.
First of all, in the beginning, nobody was there, nobody heard anybody say anything at anytime to anyone, anywhere; nobody saw anything and statements to the contrary are fraught with assumptions. And without those assumptions nothing serious could ever be said about it.
The first assumption is that there was a “beginning”,
The second assumption is that there was a creator, god,
The third assumption is that someone, (the writer of the bible books) knows what he is talking about and has personal knowledge of what went on in the beginning.
Why does everyone think that there must be a “beginning”? I suppose one could argue that the cycle of life is a series of beginnings and ends, so one might reasonably conclude that everything has a beginning and end. In the universe, stars and planets are born and eventually die. The trees bud, flowers, wilts and dies and the cycle repeats itself. The tide goes in, the tide goes out. The seasons start and end and change is everywhere.
But more than the evidence of the cycles we see in the bottle of fruit flies or the bubble of the atmosphere on earth for example, we extrapolate that the bottle and the bubble, indeed the Universe itself, must have had a beginning and when our brains can’t travel back to the “original” beginning, then we name the Gods and claim, outrageously, that “God said” and “God did” this and that and some humans were privy to this and thus have personal knowledge given to them from this personal God.
None of this is based on anything but speculation, hypothetical, imagination; in other words, a belief. The God Thor pounding his huge hammer in dissatisfaction was based on belief before the knowledge of meteorology showed us that thunder comes from lightening(electricity) heating the air and collapsing in on itself. Then Thor eventually went quietly to his new home in the slot machines at the casino.
Zeus went the same way and is a companion to Thor in the slot machine at the casino and all 10,000 or more gods were created(begun) and supplanted by knowledge (ended) in similar fashion. The truth is that there never was any god but that which was created by man, in man’s image, and perpetuated by messenger wannabe’s through magic and the hoax of the institution called religion which is the child of the supernatural.
The only real and rational way to look at the Universe and all it’s wonders is through the eyes of reason and logic and the understanding gained by knowledge. The only belief that has any credibility is the belief that we can gain the knowledge to prove all things whether they be true or false and that is one of the soundest bits of advice that the Bible actually states.
Yes the Bible does have many statements of sound reasoning and it is in man’s best interest to discern the difference in order to sort out the diamonds from the dung. You can start the sorting by disregarding every sentence that begins or ends or contains any references of: “God said”, God did”, “God declared”, the “Lord wrote”, “thus saith the Lord”, “God”, “the Almighty”. You can substitute the God word for Baal, Zeus, Allah, Apollo, Ra and the meaning of the sentence would not change whatsoever. Think about it.
If you can eliminate these things from your reading, your understanding of culture, symbols, religion, virtue, vice and life before education, knowledge and experience operated in an evolving civilization. We see all the backward ideas from biblical and pre biblical times still operating in countries around the world, particularly Islamic countries that impose death penalties for blasphemy and homosexuality, for example, all in the name of God and Religion and Prophets.
And your god and religion and Prophets are exactly the same only a little more refined, thanks to Secularism in Western Countries that offers opportunity for dialogue without killing each other to make a point.
Supernaturalism is a cancer on the face of the planet, the root cause of all hatred in the world. Religion its child. Religion divides the world in the same way that humans divide the Global Ocean and Nationalism divides the land and its people. It’s difficult to imagine today that few people know that there is only One Ocean on PLanet Earth. the Global Ocean, and yet, ask anyone to name the Oceans and they’ll name four, five or six. Imagine, this is how misinformation educates the world with untruths and nobody seems to mind or care.
The process with which you think about things is based upon indoctrination, what you’re given by society. So your RANGE of thought is limited by the dominant values of your society. We talk about civilization as though it’s a static state but there are no civilized people yet; civilization is a process that’s constantly going on. As long as you have war, police, prisons, crime, religion, you’re in the early stages of what they call, “civilization”.jacquesfresco
Work within the parameters of the GEM Universe(Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism) and may the Force allow you to work within its parameters that make natural sense for inner/outer space, medical exploration, knowledge and understanding; don’t be lured by religious belief systems pregnant with assumptions, rife with superstition amid pylons of supernatural repetitive vain imaginations because the truth is nobody knows everything for certain about any of it, scientists, scientology, theologians, atheists, philosophers, popes or peons and in there somewhere, falls you and I.
Not Islam, not Judaism, not Jainism, not Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, not God, Not Zeus, Brahma, Yaweh or Maweh, Set, Osiris, Baal and Allah. And Not any of the thousands of Gods created to describe caricature concepts since the year dot. The Israelites put the One Lump God into the consciousness of their own tribes and those tribes they conquered but tthe Israelites were no more sure about the truth of their belief than the Conquistadors were of the truth of their belief, Christianity indoctrinated into the Natives of America, Mexico, and Peru in the 16th century.
Who conquered the lands designed the Gods of our Worship. The Bible, the Koran and the Record of Mankind is rife with warring factions overcoming infidel enemies and proselytizing them into conversion.
You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim Army at the Battle of Tours in 732? Want to ask the Venetian Fleet at the Battle of Lepanto why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571? Want to ask the Germanic and Austrian Knights why they were fighting the Muslims at the Gates of Vienna in 1683? Do you want to ask people what happened in Constantinople and why today it is called Istanbul , because they lost that fight in 1453?
Islam is a theo political construct that has been doing wars since 622CE.
Since the 7th century, 1388 years! And all warring factions taking the lands that the Gods told them to take through the Prophets for it was their rightful inheritance.
And it has not stopped in this enlightened era of modernity. Victors write History, promote their Gods, generate their culture with their religions, language, foods, traditions.
All religions divide into cults, believing only they, have the true Religion, the true Church, the true Prophet and the true God; then, in self righteousness denigrate and slander outsiders (the infidels). Supernaturalism=imagination=Religion=division: them and us.
With Religion, divided we are.
Without religion,United We Stand.
Humanity Uniting Humans,(HUH)
Eliminate Religion and WOW! Peace On Earth
Think Atheism for a change and let your mind enjoy the wonders of the Universe free to imagine anything without some personal intervening George (NSA-God) Orwell watching you, monitoring your very thoughts! Very Scary And yet religions use guilt, fear and the unknown(supernatural) to enthrall you and keep you in the tyranny of its grip.
True freedom requires us to liberate ourselves from the tyranny of religion and its Gods as well as from the tyranny of brutal earthly regimes. True freedom involves the freedom to think, to explore, to grow; the freedom to pursue knowledge and learning, wherever they lead; the freedom to be different, not to conform; freedom from bigotry; freedom from ignorance; freedom to love and to express that love as we choose;
freedom to be ourselves, to accept ourselves, warts and all, and to accept others on the same terms; freedom to choose our own meaning and purpose in life, and to make our own decisions on the basis of those free choices; freedom to make mistakes; freedom to change our mind; freedom from fear, especially from phoney fears invented by those whose only aim is to control us in word, thought and deed.
There can be no true freedom so long as religion still keeps the human mind in shackles.
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March 26, 2014 at 5:19 pm
Naz:
OH and about “how could Moses, by magic, split the Red Sea so the Israelites can walk through on dry ground.”
Very simple.
Remember after Moses killed the Egyptian man thrashing the Hebrew slave? The next day Moses found out that Pharaoh knew Moses had killed the Egyptian and planned to kill him. Moses fled to the Land of Midian.
It just so happens that Midian is on the other side of the Red Sea from the hills bordering Egypt. Here is where Mose learned about the tides and studied tide time lines. Moses lived in Midian for 40 years, married and had children until he learned from a traveller that those who wanted to kill him for the slaying the Egyptian had died. The traveller also told Moses that his Brethren were treated badly and that he was needed to lead his people out of Egyptian Bondage.
Using this information Moses formulated his plan to exodus his people on the pretense of worshipping their god three days journey from their home and work sites to the Red Sea. The plan included crossing over into the Land of Midian at the time when the tide was out when the sand bars would be exposed and extend to the other side.
The tide timing was calculated to give Moses and his men enough time for the people on foot to cross over and to lay a corduroy road (or vice versa) and would support the wagon and chariot wheels from sinking into the sand.
By the time the Egyptians arrived at the crossing the tide was well on it’s way in but the Egyptians unfamiliar with tide movements attempted to follow the Israelites. As we know the chariot wheels sank into the sand and got stuck in the middle of the sand bars. Moses would have had the men dislodge the corduroy road of logs and planks as the last of the exodus continued crossing leaving the wood to float, unbound, as the water sea enveloped the sand bar, the chariots horse and soldiers all weighted down unable to save themselves from the mass drownings.
Moses was a common sense man. He lead 600,000 men not counting women and children out of slavery across the Red Sea at the same time defeating the pursuing Egyptian Army at the same time without firing a shot.
Do you know how Moses lead the Exodus 24/7 for 3 days and nights, by a pillar of cloud by day and by a pillar of light at night so they could go by day and night without stopping and without losing sight of the Parade Head? If you can’t understand how that event happened I can reveal that to you as well.
How do I know these things? The Father within; AKA, Common Sense.
Cheers…..LTG
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March 27, 2014 at 6:44 am
LTG, the gulf between us is too great……..
To put it simply, I don’t agree with you. Let’s leave it at that. There’s no point in this discussion at this time.
Thanks.
Naz
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March 27, 2014 at 8:08 am
NAZ:
Sure, no problem but I will say that we actually had some superb Posts in the early days on several Postings but that’s okay. At least this ends with kindness and the spirit of love from where I sit.
LEO
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March 27, 2014 at 9:41 am
Leo, likewise, even though we are polar opposites in our views, I still respect you as a person and harbor no ill will towards you.
I guess to some up this topic, we are both
“leaving what we came believing”
Naz
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March 28, 2014 at 9:51 am
Leaving with more than you came believing:
A woman hears for the first time in her life, she will be 40 years old on her next birthday. The moment a 39-year-old woman heard for the first time, thanks to cochlear implants, has been captured on video.
See a miracle as it happens;
believe it and see it and more importantly, Know it!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2590509/Watch-The-moving-moment-deaf-woman-overcome-emotion-HEARS-time-having-cochlea-implants-switched-on.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-26779079
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