If what’s being taught in church goes over your head, it’s either the fault of the speaker or our own. If the speaker is not communicating complicated concepts in ways that are understandable to the uninitiated, then shame on him. But if he has done his due diligence to make it as understandable as possible, but we give up on the message simply because it is unfamiliar to us, then shame on us.
The solution to the problem of things going over our head may not be for the messenger to dumb down the message, but for us to do our due diligence to raise our heads higher. Let’s raise the bar intellectually. Discipleship requires that we move on from milk to solid meat. We cannot rehearse our spiritual ABCs year after year and think we’ll ever grown in the Lord. We need to challenge ourselves theologically and intellectually to become better disciples of Jesus. So raise your heads high, and so far as it is within your power, do not let another message go over your head.
Thinking to Believe 
March 26, 2014 at 11:27 am
All that was stated is spot on when it comes to communication. A good communicator take the complicated and makes it simple, a Seminary prophesor takes the simple and makes it complicated 🙂 So it seems.
There is another angle. There are times when what is spoken is not for that person at that time, for whatever reason God knows. I believe when the word is spoken a receptive heart will hear from God. That said, I think it is a sin to bore a congregation with a poor presentation of eternal truths. If Jay Leno can spend hours preparing jokes, we aught to be spending days preparing both content and delivery of God’s eternal truths.
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March 26, 2014 at 11:31 am
Study …..toshow,…..yourself……approved
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March 26, 2014 at 12:23 pm
This topic reminds me of a sermon I recently heard. I do not think anyone could not understand exactly what this message is about: With emotion, at times, crackling in his voice Joel Osteen talks about “The Spirit of Honor”.
http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/joel-osteen-ministries/have-a-spirit-of-honor-398895.html
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March 26, 2014 at 1:57 pm
That may not be as fair as some may think brother Jason. The truth is that there are a great many people in our churches that are illiterate and many more who though not quite, still have trouble comprehending technical or college level language. I believe that it is always the speakers obligation to strive to reach every adult, young adult and young person in the audience.
1 Cor. 14:7-11. Although Paul is here talking about tongues in particular, I thing the idea of making sure you speak so that those who hear you can comprehend is there. It is different from what Paul discusses in the third chapter where he contrasts spiritual mindedness with carnality. It is also the pastors obligation to see to it that the members of his church are properly edified. The educated members should also take a more active role in helping the less learned to better comprehend what is spoken. While I agree that we must all strive to raise our level of education and comprehensive ability, I find that far to many who are educated have a tendency to flaunt their intellectual abilities to impress more than to communicate. That is sad. Church of all places should be a place where anyone who comes will get an understanding of God’s truth.
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March 26, 2014 at 2:13 pm
Dan,
Let me make a couple of points in response.
First, as I said in my post, I think the teacher’s job is always to communicate in ways that are understandable. But I’ve seen too often that people just raise the “over my head” flag whenever they are presented with anything they have to think hard about. For example, I know people who, the moment they hear a couple of “big words,” just tune out, even when those big words are properly defined for them. Others just tune out when they begin to hear concepts that are unfamiliar to them. It’s intellectual laziness, not intellectual inabilities.
Second, I don’t think every lesson taught from the pulpit needs to reach the lowest common denominator in the audience. It is appropriate at times to teach lessons that will only reach the intellectual level or spiritual understanding of a portion of the audience. If we continually neglect the intellectual needs of the more theologically educated among us, we are doing them a huge disservice. A pastor’s job is to reach the needs of all people, not just part.
Jason
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March 27, 2014 at 8:24 pm
Hopefully I’ve not misunderstood the post — in my experience this has happened occasionally but usually it’s a total disagreement of interpretation that is the problem not that what I’m hearing is over my head. This is for topics which I have done some study on of course. Responses to my questioning of what those in authority were teaching me has ranged from I’m just confused to I’m deceived by the devil or because I said so. I find it very strange that so many Christians can have very different interpretations of The Bible.
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March 27, 2014 at 11:44 pm
Paul:
IMO, the problem arises because the supernatural is too varied for a “one-size-fits-all”; in the first place, IMO, the supernatural does not exist; but secondly, interpretation of such, necessarily, is a matter of personal imagination because it’s impossible to have any “gold” standard for common reference…..
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March 28, 2014 at 6:19 am
Paul, this is ongoing struggle in the church. I think there are some denominations that are too rigid in their doctrines and leave no room for other interpretations on some of the minor points in the bible. We divide over silly differences instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to the other person and find unity with them in the essential aspects of our faith. This is not to say we should be “wishy washy” and believe everyone’s opinion is right, but it is to say we should exercise sound judgement.
I think this comes with time and maturity. There were certain doctrines that for years I thought I had pegged down, but then one day realized I was way off base. My revelation came because I got a better understanding of “weights and balances” and what was more important to God. Once I realized that, I was able to refresh my understanding of certain doctrines.
Naz
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March 28, 2014 at 10:54 am
Paul:
In my own experience in bible studies, I wondered why Noah cursed Ham’s son Canaan for merely seeing his father’s nakedness. I asked many people: pastors, laymen and born again Christians but never could I reconcile the event with, “oh, that was the culture back then”; or, “it was a act that hinted of homosexuality”, the most common interpretations. And thus did I wonder and search for 20 years until one day like a ton of bricks, it hit me!
I was reading Leviticus 18 one day and the list of “sexual ‘thou shalt not’, sins”. I was suddenly startled to came across the exact phraseology in this passage in KJV as the passage also in the KJV in Genesis 9: 22,24,25: “22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told (boasted to) his two brethren without.
23 …..Shem and Japheth……..took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Their was no doubt that day and I knew exactly what happened that day in the reading of those verses.
Now I also wondered why I had missed that for so long and I began looking thoough several other bible that I studied along with the King James; none of the other bible had the same phraseology in both instances as the King James…the KJV also became special to me on that day.
Then I began researching other places that would support my conclusion:
Seeing the nakedness of a man is a common Hebrew expression for having sex with his wife (Lev. 20:11). Canaan lived a cursed life because he was conceived by a perverse union. A common biblical figure of speech appears in Canaan’s story, and when one rereads the story understanding this figure of speech, the message of this account becomes compelling.
Noah planted a vineyard and became drunk. While Noah was inebriated, one of his sons, Ham, committed incest with Noah’s wife. Taking advantage of his father’s drunkenness, Ham, who had lived before the flood in a sexually perverse society, had intercourse with his own mother, impregnating her and thereby fathering Canaan. So because Noah’s own wife bore Canaan, the story twice clarified for its ancient audience that “Ham was the father of Canaan,” not Noah, as the earliest Canaanites may have misrepresented their heritage!
Of Israel’s nearby enemies, not all were Canaanites. For example, the Moabites and Ammonites were the product of other parent/child relations. Again involving drunkenness, Abraham’s nephew Lot impregnated his daughters who gave birth to the Moabites and Ammonites (Gen. 19:36-38). Any child conceived in this way, regardless of mutational considerations, enters life set up to fail.
As all authors and peoples do, Moses and the Jews used figures of speech. Some of the Bible’s figures of speech are euphemisms that promote modesty. For example, instead of saying that Adam had sexual intercourse with Eve, the Bible more politely says that “Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived” (Gen. 4:1). And Moses writes, “the man who lies with” rather than using the modern and more crude phrase, “has sex with.” The reader who misses these common figures of speech will misunderstand the plain meaning of various passages. Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible and Moses used the same decency when describing other physical relations. For example, when prohibiting incest in the Mosaic Law, rather than saying, a man shall not have intercourse with his mother, Moses wrote that he shall not “uncover his father’s nakedness.”
‘The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness…’ Lev. 20:11
‘If a man lies with his uncle’s wife, he has uncovered his uncle’s nakedness. … ‘If a man takes his brother’s wife… He has uncovered his brother’s nakedness.’ Lev. 20:20-21
Committing incest with any female “near of kin” can be described as “uncovering his nakedness” (Lev. 18:6), referring to the appropriate male relative, including the nakedness of your father (with your mother, Lev. 18:7), or your sister, granddaughter, stepsister, aunt, daughter-in-law and sister-in-law (Lev. 18:9-15). Of course, this can also be described in more literal terms as uncovering the woman’s nakedness, but it can also be referred to, idiomatically, as referring to the husband’s, father’s, brothers, uncle’s, or son’s nakedness.
Ezekiel used this figure of speech in this Hebrew parallelism: “In you [O Israel] men uncover their fathers’ nakedness; in you they violate women…” (Ezek. 22:10). And Habakkuk condemns not the sin of homosexuality but of getting your neighbor drunk in order to seduce his wife, when he warns: “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk, that you may look on his nakedness!” (Hab. 2:15; See also Lev. 18:10, 14, 17-18; 1 Sam. 20:30; and Ezek. 22:10-11.) Habakkuk warns against looking upon a neighbor’s nakedness, which is just the slightest alternate form of uncovering his nakedness.
So, understanding this common Hebrew figure of speech enables the reader to comprehend Moses’ 3,500-year-old account of why Noah cursed Canaan:
Why do Christian readers often miss this real story of Canaan? The undermining of Genesis as literal and rational history leads believers, even many authorities, to neglect serious study of Genesis and much of the Old Testament. Christians read that Ham saw his father’s nakedness and therefore Noah cursed baby Canaan. That may seem capricious and arbitrary to many, but millions of Christians are conditioned to take the Bible with a grain of salt.
Canaan’s true story shows the tragic reality of a child being set up to fail by the wickedness of his father. Thus Noah cursed Canaan as a statement of that reality, not as a hex or evil spell, but as a warning to others against following in Ham’s wicked ways.
So incest set the background for centuries of conflict between Noah’s Hamitic descendants, especially those through Canaan, against the descendants of Shem, the Semites, especially the Jews, to whom was promised the land of the Canaanites.
ltg
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March 28, 2014 at 1:49 pm
Son of Man,
I can not say those who do not believe in the supernatural are wrong and I can’t understand why others (like myself) who believe in the supernatural can’t understand their position.
Regarding Noah; I can’t disagree with your interpretation and it is also a good example of my point. If a certain Christian denomination decided the story was just about Ham seeing Noah naked and I kept asking questions eventually the preacher would respond as per my previous post.
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March 28, 2014 at 2:06 pm
Paul, sounds like you’re not too sure about your beliefs unless I’m misunderstanding you, forgive me.
What do you mean when you said
“I can not say those who do not believe in the supernatural are wrong”
As for the preacher that would shut you down, be leery of those kinds of people as I have had experience with those that would like to take control of your life and your thoughts. Asking questions is not wrong although super-sensitive pastors sometimes interpret that for rebellion.
Naz
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March 28, 2014 at 2:43 pm
Naz,
Noah’s story can be interpreted I believe as stated by Son of Man. Now if I agree with Son of Man and make that known, but my denomination has a different interpretation, you know what’s gonna happen — I’ll get into trouble and maybe asked to leave that Church. In the good old days the people were controlled because we couldn’t read Holy Scriptures, we were told what to believe and the Church leaders probably liked that because they had power and control. Why else would they want to get in the way between us and God? So now people are studying and some are coming to different conclusions and division grows. Usually my experience as a Christian who is a former RCC is that The Church is right so if you disagree you have to be wrong. Some things I think the RCC is totally wrong and other things I disagree but see their point. So this brings up the question why so much disagreement among Christians? Is this division to protect us from the one world false religion?
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March 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm
Paul:
I understand perfectly what you say about contesting or hinting at interpretations that go against life long church dogma….nay, centuries-long interpretations that just don’t necessarily cut it anymore in a more enlightened,modern society. Well look at what happened to Galileo Galilei who was forced to live out the rest of his life under house arrest by the Pope after the Catholic heresy conviction; they were ready to kill him unless he recanted.
I was banned from attending a Pentacostal Church my wife attended after a visit and writing a letter to the Pastor suggesting that parishioners would be better served with sermons that didn’t preach hatred against Mormonism, for example; and, that pitting men and women against each other with a Scales of Justice consisting of two jugs for donations suspended from the ceiling in the foyer where women were encouraged to put church offerings in the woman’s side and the men in the men’s side, clearly trying to pit one gender against the other to increase donations for Sunday collections; I don’t know what was more childish, using the gender competitions for more money or banning me because I wrote a letter about it. The next Sunday my wife told me that the Pastor had tied the ropes together at the centre so that neither one side nor the other would tip the scales and both jugs stayed equal in the balance.
I am looking forward to seeing the new Motion Picture “NOAH”, starring Russell Crowe who defends ‘Noah’ as Critics Argue Over Controversial Film already being banned by Muslims, Christian and Judaists alike since there seems to be some straying from the literal translations of the scriptures that’s causing lots of controvery.
I think my Movie would make billions as boycotts across the world would promote the Movie like no Paid Advertising could. lol
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March 28, 2014 at 7:08 pm
Naz,
I’m a bible believing Christian. However, I don’t believe we Christians have “proved” our case. So unless I can “prove” the supernatural exists how can I say someone is wrong for saying the supernatural does not exist?
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March 29, 2014 at 4:41 pm
Paul et al: A Movie Critique. I read critic’s review earlier who said it was a blockbuster…I thought to myself, that critic is deluded for sure.
I saw the Movie “Noah” last evening and I must say I was impressed.
I was impressed because of what it was not more than for what it was. The movie not only was science fiction but it was so far off-base with the bible story that even the Christian literal translation will be strained beyond credulity by the most devout religionist. I think Darren Aronofsky’s movie was made for a video game audience.
Was the movie worth seeing?; only to show that it was a most ridiculous exercise in movie-making that was nothing short of trying to capitalize on religious folly by using a biblical giant in an attempt to gain movie sales. Based on what the movie showed, I believe Darren Aronofsky has never so much as read the bible story about Noah and knows nothing about the story, at all!
The movie shows Noah having lots of helpers to build the Ark; namely, the “Watchers”, an army of giant rock formations as huge as 50 or 100 feet tall that looked like giant transformers in human form able to talk but walked like old, deformed, crippled humans with a bad case of Osteoarthritis.
The bible speaks of Noah and his wife and Noah’s three sons and their wives entering the Ark but in the movie when the flood came and everyone was on board including the birds and animals that Noah put to sleep for the duration of the Ark adventure with the smoke from an incense burner like the Catholics use in their incense burning at Mass, the only members that were on board was Noah, his wife the three sons (no wives) a young girl Noah’s family found as a lone survivor in a razzed village plundered by marauding bandits I suppose and ONE STOWAWAY who climbed on board with a mission to slay Noah and take over the New World Beginning.
Ham of the Bible is called Noah’s youngest son but the movie shows him as second to the eldest, Shem with Japeth as the youngest. Shem had a relationship eventually with the girl survivor after having lived as an adopted daughter with the family for 10 years(she was about 6 or 7 when found) just before the flood came.
The movie depicts the young girl as being barren because of wounds to her abdomen suffered when her village kin were slaughtered. However, the young girl was met one day by Noah’s grandfather who lived alone in a cave who had magical powers and when he blessed the young girl by touching her womb she became sexually aroused and ran to Shem forcing her sexual excitment upon him; she was with child by two because she had twin daughters on board the Ark. Noah however said he would kill the child if it was a girl when born because Noah became delusional saying his mission changed because God wanted to kill everyone from the face of the earth including Noah’s family. Noah then went berserk in his new mission to make sure his family would never have children, (the reason he believed he needed to kill the girl children) a male child Noah said he would have allowed to live because males would not be able to produce children without females and the human race would die out. Ham and Japeth never had wives, according to the movie version.
When the Ark struck land the family disembarked; Noah found grapes growing just up from the beach, drank the fermented juice, got drunk and slept naked on the beach on his stomach where next morning he was covered up with a blanket by Shem and Japeth while Ham looked on before throwing a symbolic shed snake skin he was saving at the feet of Noah apparently representing the covenant between God and Noah which Ham wanted to carry on with. Then Ham, left the family and struck out for parts unknown, alone and walked into the wilderness.
The End.
If anyone posting here sees the movie I would love to read your review.
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March 30, 2014 at 12:08 pm
Son of Man,
Thanks for the review. Your thoughts on the movie Noah are what I’m also hearing from others. Was thinking of going to see it but now might wait till it airs on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation).
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March 30, 2014 at 12:30 pm
Pail:
Thank you. No, no don’t wait for CBC my goodness. I would encourage you to see it for “knowledge” sake as soon as you can; if you wait for CBC you’ll be stuck in belief limbo for a long time I’m afraid. “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.” (knowledge)
ADMISSION
Format
General Child Senior
(14-64) (3-13) (65+)
General $11.99 $8.99 $8.99
3D $14.99 $11.99 $11.99
UltraAVX $14.99 $11.99 $11.99
IMAX $18.99 $12.99 $12.99
D-BOX $19.99 $16.99 $16.99
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March 31, 2014 at 8:57 am
Paul, you don’t have to prove anything. So many Christians get into this war of words with unbelievers and get deceived into thinking that they might be right.
You said you’re a “bible believing Christian “. That means you believe the bible is a true historical account and it has resonated with your spirit. That’s God working in you to believe in Him. It sounds like you may be untrained with the Word of God since you’re not sure of yourself. Don’t let things you don’t understand trip you, rather, study to show yourself approved before God.
You’re job is not to get into a theological debate to try and prove God exists. You need to build up the faith that God has put in you by growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. If you believe the bible is a true account of actual events, then by default you must believe the supernatural is true. A person of faith doesn’t have to “see” everything to believe and know it’s true.
Look at what Jesus said to Thomas :
Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)
And in Hebrews :
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
All that said………..if I wanted to, I could really get into all the scientific reasons and “proofs” of God’s existence based on the creation and other things but there is a time and place for those types of discussions. This is mainly a heart thing not a scientific thing. Although attempting to convince someone from a strictly scientific point of view might help that person, ultimately the person will only be converted by an act of God through the Word of God. We can’t make believers out of people, God does. This is hard for some to accept but I have found by experience this to be true.
As for the RCC, I used to be RC long long time ago. They have many doctrines and theological interpretations biblically incorrect. But there are a lot of Catholics who have strong faith in the Lord. My only fear is that some of the doctrines may lead Catholics astray in a false sense of security not knowing what the will of the Lord is.
As for all the “disagreement among Christians”. Are you surprised ? Show me 2 people that can agree with each other on all points. There are some minor points I think it’s OK we can disagree on, then there are some majors that we can’t compromise at all. For example, we can’t disagree on whether the supernatural exists or not. If we’re believers, we must agree that the supernatural exists or we will be divided, just like I am with LTG. On the other hand, if I think that Ham only saw Noah’s nakedness whereas someone else believes that Ham slept with his mother, we can agree to disagree on that point because the result has no bearing on the critical aspects of our belief system. The bottom line is that Ham was cursed.
Btw, I saw the Noah movie…..more on that and Ham later………..
Naz
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March 31, 2014 at 8:58 am
I heard a phrase recently, that if someone complains that the sermon went over their head, to respond with “all the better to hit the person behind you”.
My brother (who is not a preacher but has done a couple of sermons) tends to try and produce a sermon that reaches both the illiterate and the intelligent. Basically allowing a simple message to be taught, but with additional complexities in there to try and teach the more intelligent/studied folk.
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March 31, 2014 at 11:30 am
PVV:
Some people misinterpret the bible all their days and think that it’s okay to disagree about small things because it is not critical to the bigger things, yet never accept that they may have misinterpreted the greater things too that does impact their major views and content themselves to continue in the darkness they have accepted in a failed mindset. Yet they point out doctrines and dogma of other sects that lead astray in a false sense of security.
Some people reject knowledge staring them in the face because the confusion knowledge renders ignorance is incompatible with a false system so rather than accept revelation that challenges their view, even teetering them on the brink of a nervous breakdown, they reject the truth of knowledge in favor of the familiarity of falsity. It is no esy switch to turn “on from off” and “off to on”; that dilemma too is dogma difficult to remove.
…….If you are not right in the small riches of the bible how can you be trusted to be right in the higher riches thereof ……..
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March 31, 2014 at 11:57 am
Mat 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Naz
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March 31, 2014 at 4:32 pm
Son of Man,
Maybe I’ll see Noah before it airs on CBC lol. I was hoping they would stay close to the biblical story or if not at least don’t do the fantasy thing (eg. Lord of the Rings). Regrettably it sounds like they did the later.
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March 31, 2014 at 6:45 pm
Naz,
Let me explain further. Sincere people have different opinions from the majority. When this happens over Biblical questions both sides will have proof from the Bible stating opposite sides, each believing they are correct. These disagreements range from major to minor (eg. what day is the Sabbath, what Holy days should we observe, is the human soul immortal, did Joseph and Mary have children after Jesus was born, what day of the week was Jesus Christ crucified, do we take all of the Bible literally and if not what parts, etc…). We know what the Bible says but we don’t all agree on what it means. Because of recent posts and the time of year let’s just talk quickly about the Exodus. The Exodus is a very interesting event that tradition says was recorded at the time it occurred in the written language and culture of the Hebrews, there by it doesn’t have some of the problems people say the New Testament has. I find several things interesting with the Exodus but I just want to mention one for my point. Was there literally walls of water to the left and right of the Hebrews as they crossed? Or as Son of Man mentioned previously, was this some kind of natural occurrence and the Hebrews also utilized some type of planking so their wagons wouldn’t get stuck in the mud? Did Moses have for knowledge this would occur due to say combinations of low tides and strong winds or is it a miracle? God could use natural occurrences for sure to obtain His objectives don’t get me wrong, my point is if there wasn’t walls of water to the left and right then is that a exaggeration or fabrication? In my mind the Biblical account differs from the depiction of the event in the movie The Ten Commandments because when I grew up on the shore of Lake Erie I witnessed a similar event where strong winds caused the lake water to recede in kinda of a low tide event. So why walls of water to the left an right? The story of the Exodus sure sacred the heck out of the Canaanites and helped the Hebrews with the harlot at Jericho. Do I believe in the Exodus story? Yes I do. So why do I care about walls of water to the left or right? Because I’m trying to find the truth for myself not what my parents or priest or teachers told me the truth was. If you’re not RC this might not make sense to you, but before confirmation I asked why are the Ten Commandments on the Church wall different than inside the cover of my Gideon NT and Psalms & Proverbs. Secondly, in my mid 20’s I was surprised to learn (while changing charts on my pick up truck tachograph) from my boss Sunday was the first not last day of the week lol. We always had religious calendars at home and the first day of the week was Monday and the seventh day of the week was Sunday. That was about 30 years ago, I figured if the RCC couldn’t even copy the Ten Commandments properly from Exodus and didn’t know that Saturday was the seventh day of the week what else were they wrong about? and I might as well just study on my own. For me the goal is to get as close as possible to first century teachings.
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March 31, 2014 at 10:00 pm
Growing up in the RC world I was struck that every household had a bible; BUT……..ours had a huge mega bible sitting in the living room on a podium; like this bible as I recall was about a foot and a half long, a foot wide and 6 inches thick BUT……. the weird thing was that while every household had a bible they were discouraged from reading it because it was “too mysterious” and only the priest was able to read it with understanding because priests were well connected, college graduates. OMG. Those were the days you could not eat meat meat on Fridays. lol
Regardless of what day the Sabbath fell on, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man not Man for the Sabbath; therefore Man is master of the Sabbath. This of course just made the Scribes and Pharisees more furious than they already were. Oh well…..
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April 1, 2014 at 5:50 am
Paul, the questions you ask are the same ones I asked myself many years ago when I was a RC. I found the same inconsistencies and had no choice but to leave the RCC. I can tell you confidently that since leaving the RCC my understanding of the bible has grown and a lot of my questions have been answered. I learned a lot of biblical truth in the UPC (United Pentecostal Church) but eventually moved on from there as well. I don’t regret my time in the RCC or the UPC as both experiences taught me so much about God and truth and how to find truth. I found that both the RCC and UPC were right on some things and also wrong on some things.
As for the Exodus from Egypt, I think you have to add too much to the scripture to conclude it was some natural event of tides etc.. It is abundantly clear that it was a miraculous parting of the sea by God just as the 10 plagues were also signs from God. The Psalms and other parts of the bible mention the exodus as a miraculous deliverance by God. Don’t let anybody try to convince you that all the miraculous events in the bible can be explained by “secret knowledge” and natural phenomenon. It is just too much of a stretch for any rational human being to believe that.
You sound like a sincere person who is looking for truth. Do not get frustrated at where you are today, this is all part of the process. God is refining you as He refined me and everyone else. It takes time to grow in the knowledge of God. We will make mistakes, misinterpret scriptures and do all sorts of things that later in life we will look back and say, “what was I thinking”.
If it’s worth anything to you, my advice, with all due respect to those you may hold in high esteem in the RCC, is to leave the RCC. That said, I still believe it’s good to belong to a church group. We all need to study the bible and learn and experience the church world so we can grow. As you mentioned, there will never be a time when self study is not important. No matter what any pastor or preacher says, we must confirm it for ourselves by the Word of God. Some things are easier to decipher than others and some things we may never know and will remain a mystery. But the bottom line is still the same regardless, Jesus rose from the dead so we can have eternal life. Everything else is secondary my friend.
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:1-2)
Naz
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April 1, 2014 at 11:09 am
Naz:
Just to correct your understanding re:”If it’s worth anything to you, my advice, with all due respect to those you may hold in high esteem in the RCC, is to leave the RCC”. Paul has already said that he is a former RCC(member) as per his Post # 12 so your advice for him to leave the RCC is belated.
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April 1, 2014 at 12:49 pm
Leo, thanks for the clarification, I missed that …..
Naz
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April 1, 2014 at 1:20 pm
You’re welcome:
It’s easy to miss things: I argued with someone the other day that Jesus was baptized after the temptations in the desert but it was after the baptism that he went into the desert for thought provoking meditation. After I looked it up again to confirm my position, I was clearly wrong. lol
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April 1, 2014 at 5:55 pm
Naz,
Thanks for your concern but I’m in a pretty good place. Presently, I don’t see the need to belong to an organized religion but if needed I’m sure something will present itself. Because I question many of the majority held modern day Christian beliefs (based on my understanding of the Bible) and can understand many of the problems/concerns others have with the Bible that doesn’t mean I don’t believe or my faith is weak. Actually, if ones faith is solid I highly recommend talking with atheists and followers of other Christian denominations and Judaism. I learned lots more about my faith this way by taking what they said and testing it against scripture.
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April 2, 2014 at 7:46 am
Paul, I pray the best for you in your journey and as you rightly pointed out, we all must make our own way to find the will of God for our life.
As for the “majority held modern day Christian beliefs”, I don’t know if this is a reference to the RCC exclusively or just all denominations in general. I think you will find human error in all churches to some degree, some more than others. As we grow in our understanding of God, we will be able to better discern truth from error. At the same time, I strongly believe that the core truths and principles of the bible are simple and that once a person has a solid grasp of those he can move on to the more meatier matters of the scriptures.
Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
Naz
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April 2, 2014 at 10:27 am
Naz:
Religionists have been sucking and feeding on milk for the last ten thousand centuries and they are still no further ahead in their God delusion than they were back in the stone age…So much for getting to the meatier things in scripture.
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April 2, 2014 at 3:20 pm
Naz,
IMO some errors of the RCC have been kept by other Christian denominations. I see a huge change in Christianity from the first century to when it became the state religion of the holy roman empire. I don’t want to get too legalistic, but our most holy day is called Easter, why aren’t we celebrating Nisan 14 and Passover? I mean we Christians can’t even all agree on who Jesus of Nazareth is. As I’ve said in the past I also get quite a different vibe from the OT compared to the NT. Again, I agree grace without works is not good but Jesus Christ came to set us free and from what I see we’ve just changed our bonds from one set of rules to another.
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April 2, 2014 at 10:20 pm
Paul:
Do you drive a car? I know of few places where Christians tell more lies about Jesus than behind the steering wheel of an automobile.
Nisan 14? Now that’s something that went way over my head, never heard of it. I looked it up and then it was easy to answer. I don’t celebrate Nisan 14; first off, I don’t speak Turkish so it’s too far from reality for me but secondly and more importantly I don’t celebrate EASTER, certainly not a holiday celebrating the crucifixion and being raised from the dead something which never happened. But mind you, I can explain exactly how the “resurrection” appears to have happened, if anyone cares to know the truth. Raise your hand if you have a question. lol
Nisan 14 is supposed to be the day Jesus was crucifed so I can’t figure why anyone would celebrate a crucifixion. I don’t celebrate the supernatural; too far fetched outside of Hollywood. And the two days before Easter as a time to demonstrate guilt because of one’s sins that caused the crucifixion. Uh uh, nada.
But I do celebrate the life and message of Jesus practice when I am waxing angelic, which is what the real celebration should be: a celebration of his life because it is by his life that we learn the truth, the way and the life, are we made aware, especially the compassion part and the forgiveness part which Christian Society gives lip service to but never practices; as their Justice System proves, for example. They would be more truthful preaching what they practice. Do something wrong in the Justice System and you’ll be wearing an albatross around your neck like Galileo did, for the rest of your life.
But then I don’t want to wax totally negative here so remember the real reason for the season and know how Easter should be celebrated, simply by knowing the legacy of Jesus as I have gleaned from all my research, from where I sit.
Jesus’ legacy is one of attitude and disposition, graceful and genuine in compassion and kindness, always ready to forgive those willing to receive it; a man so full of common sense and sound judgment that he had the wisdom to turn insight into foresight and recognizing the Father within everyman, not the supernatural gods created by charlatans, magicians, popoffs and snake oil salesmen selling miracle water in ketchup packages.
No, Jesus was a real man credited with supernatural powers because of his common sense ideas to tackle any problem. Jesus gave the presence of his peace by his life, not through death; the clergy has it all backward by claiming Jesus gave the world life by his death, uh uh. Couldn’t be further from the truth.
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April 3, 2014 at 5:22 am
Paul, I sympathize with you with what appears to be a great deal of confusion in your mind about Christianity. It sounds like you are frustrated because everyone doesn’t agree on all points, the main point being who Jesus of Nazareth is.
That question is one you have to answer for yourself.
Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
Mat 16:14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Mat 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Naz
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April 3, 2014 at 9:52 am
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
(ESV 1John 4:1-3)
A good scripture to go by when filtering out some of nonsense that is being spewed on this blog these days………..
Naz
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April 3, 2014 at 4:24 pm
Naz:
No greater nonsense has been spewed out on this blog than that which has come from you. When I read your comment today to Paul,(34,35) one of the brightest posters here, you saying that you “sympathize with him because of his confusion” made me laugh out loud. But what really made me gasp was the audacity of your self righteousness. Implying that you are the last word on the real Jesus? Forget it. Paul is closer to truth than you can imagine with your constant regurgitating of scripture. OMG Naz I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt you would not recognize Jesus if you tripped over me!
If there is anyone on this blog who does not know Jesus, that someone is you, Naz. Oh sure you can quote scriptures but even the demons can do that much as your scriptures plainly state.
There’s trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, and expect others to follow you saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests—look how many scoundrel preachers there are today and how many were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular.
You have your head in your Bible constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me for the life you say you want. but there’s no eternal life in the bible; if you will not listen to me as I relate to you the life that only I can give, you have a dead bible and if you read the bible long enough with such absolute certainty without coming to the one of whom it testifies, it won’t be long before you have a dead Christ because you will crucify him again and again by your pride of Absolute Certainty and reject my words.
I have no compunction as Jesus had no compuntion to claim heirship based on Psalm 82 that he referred the Scribes and the Pharisees to, when they wanted to stone him because he made them furious by claiming to be the Son of God. That’s no big deal Naz, it’s written in the Bible: “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; why get upset with me because I claim to be the Son of God”?
You would be better advised to offer encouragment to someone who is searching for truth because the very notion of searching to find, is from Jesus; the very notion of knocking for the door of understanding to be opened is from Jesus; the very notion of asking and it shall be given you, is from Jesus.
And when Paul says he is searching, as Jesus commanded, you have the audacity to say Paul is confused. You may as well say that Jesus is confused for encouraging Paul and other like minded individuals to “seek and you shall find”; instead, you just sit there and criticize and offer nothing except maniacal castings of firebrands, arrows, and death with scriptures of condemnation. You and Frank Adamick sound like brothers in the same skin of Absolute Certainty.
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April 3, 2014 at 5:08 pm
Son of Man,
When I first heard about Nisan 14 I thought they were talking about automobiles lol. My surprise came when I looked into the whole brouhaha and found the RCC changed the celebration timing and called it “Easter”, apparently people were murdered because they stayed with the old timing. Sounded like the Empire wanted everyone to celebrate on the same date or else.
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April 3, 2014 at 5:26 pm
Paul
Wow. Yeah the first thing I thought of was Toyota’s competitor too
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April 3, 2014 at 6:24 pm
Naz,
Looks like we just see things differently. You might be a wall of water to the left and right of them kind of a Christian and I’m the wind blew all night and there was a kinda low tide event kinda Christian. This is how I think —- When looking at the Exodus story do any of these things pop out at you? Isn’t part of the promised land supposed to be in Egypt? One part of the story says Pharaoh wants to kill the male Hebrew babies, did he just accept the story of the midwives and then most male babies lived? Or did the next Pharaoh (if it was a different one when Moses came back) not worry about the male Hebrew babies because there were lots of Hebrews at the Exodus, some say up to 3.5 million man, women and children. If they all left right away man, woman, children, young, old, livestock. How fast (kilometers per hour) could they go? How wide was the column? God uses a cloud to protect the rear column of the Hebrews from Pharaoh’s army then fights for the Hebrews by drowning Pharaoh’s chariots but allows the Amalekites to attack the Hebrews? Moses was supposed to take that route to avoid conflict I thought. I’m not sure if I mixed up anything but my point is —– If the story is as miraculous as the Bible states why did the Hebrews other than Joshua and Caleb come back after spying out the land and be scared and cause the people to lose heart? I think I can believe in the big picture but wonder about the details. It seems to me quite possible, but I wasn’t there so I could be wrong, that some of the story was exaggerated at least for propaganda purposes to scare the heck out of the Caananites.
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April 3, 2014 at 9:24 pm
Paul:
Certainly some “Food for Thought” in the Exodus story I’d say. On the other hand I believe that “Food for Thought” for most Christians hint of George Bernard Shaw’s famous quote: “Youth is wasted on the young”.
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April 4, 2014 at 5:32 am
Paul, no problem I understand where you’re coming from. As per LTG’s comments, I did not intend any disrespect to you in my comments. I apologize if I offended you in any way.
I see what you say about the story being “exaggerated” but keep in mind that this is a slippery slope. Once you start going down this path then you can start to look at everything like an exaggeration of metaphor which could make you miss the real meaning of what the scriptures are saying.
That said, by all means we shouldn’t put our heads in the sand but if we are going to try and rationalize every event in the bible and try to figure out or extrapolate every detail where the scripture is silent, good luck ! The bible is really a snapshot of the main historical events of the God’s people Israel, it is not an exhaustive narrative of the history of the world.
“If the story is as miraculous as the Bible states why did the Hebrews other than Joshua and Caleb come back after spying out the land and be scared and cause the people to lose heart?”
As to your question above, it’s a good question, but the bible clearly explains that they saw the people of the land and they were like Giants. This is human nature to fear regardless of what God just did. Also, we don’t know how much time passed since the parting of the Red Sea and this event, so their faith could have waned by the time this happened. Regardless, I don’t see any reason to find fault with this narrative. This is their story not ours. Perhaps if you were there you would have been right there with Joshua and Caleb !
But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.”
Then the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.”
So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.
And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.” (Numbers 13:30-33)
Naz
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April 4, 2014 at 5:35 am
Good morning Leo, nothing like reading a good tongue lashing first thing in the morning from my greatest adversary !
tou·ché !!
Naz
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April 4, 2014 at 6:48 am
Paul, one more thought about the tide theory….
According to Exodus the wind did blow all night as you suggested as it was the wind the made the water move. They probably needed all night to cross over since it was probably pretty far to walk.
“….and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. ”
What is the purpose of this verse ? Do you believe this was added to make it seem miraculous ? Or do you think this was an exaggeration ?
What about this reference in Psalms, was this just a legend then based on the above exaggeration…..
They did not keep God’s covenant, but refused to walk according to his law.
They forgot his works and the wonders that he had shown them.
In the sight of their fathers he performed wonders in the land of Egypt, in the fields of Zoan.
He divided the sea and let them pass through it, and made the waters stand like a heap. (Psalms 78:10-13)
I’m curious to what you think, thanks !
Naz
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April 4, 2014 at 8:27 am
Naz:
Thank you
Chastisement is for two peoples, the fool who hates reproof which today you are not and those to whom correct in love and a wise man hears.
In other words, My dear child, don’t shrug off God’s discipline,
but don’t be crushed by it either.
It’s the child he loves that he disciplines;
the child he embraces, he also corrects.
God is educating you; that’s why you must never drop out. Later, of course, it pays off handsomely, for it’s the well-trained who find themselves mature in their relationship…..” Hebrews 12
ltg
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April 4, 2014 at 8:51 am
The narrowest point in the Red Sea is the Strait Bab el Mandeb in the Land of Midian about west of Horeb(today Yemen) – 29 km. The point unable to be crossed, metaphorically is like a wall; aka, “a mighty gulf”. The Gulf of Aqaba is averages 12 to 17 miles in width and is 110 miles in length. At the Nuweiba crossing area, it is said chariot wheels and bones have been found.
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April 4, 2014 at 4:45 pm
Naz,
I take your comments as in the spirit of charity, I trust you feel the same. There is what the Bible says, what it means and do we take it literally or not in all aspects. That is, can some stories be symbolic only or based on fact or belief but exaggerated? I find people worry about not taking the Bible literally because you get into a slippery slope situation, this doesn’t worry me because I try and find the voice of The Shepherd in the Bible. Regarding the Exodus, my tide event scenario is some thoughts trying to explain the story within the big picture, what really happened I don’t know because I wasn’t there. I would be surprised if Psalms or other references in the Bible to the Exodus story didn’t reflect events as stated. They would take the story of the Exodus literally which doesn’t prove the story as fact IMO. Your points hi-lite my previous issues/concerns with the story. So the Hebrews are trapped between the sea and Pharaoh’s army protected in the rear by God with a cloud. So how many Hebrew’s? How strong was the wind and did it stop? How big a corridor through the sea? How deep was the sea at the crossing? How high of a wall of water to the left and right? What was the length from shore to shore? How smooth is the sea bottom? How long would it take all the Hebrews and their livestock to cross? Does this timing jive with the big picture? Did the chariots enter right behind the Hebrews separated by the cloud or did they only enter when the Hebrews were clear? We know they had to enter in far enough before the wheels got stuck in the mud so all the chariots could get in while the Hebrews are on dry land. Basically we don’t have lots of info and things to me just don’t seem to add up. If the event didn’t happen as stated that doesn’t bother me at all. We know human nature, most people don’t advertise their failures but if they do they were beaten by a hugely superior force and it’s a victory that they weren’t all killed. Like wise in victory, the foe they defeated was the toughest around. My personal guess is some catastrophic events happened in Egypt and the Hebrews returned to their ancestors home in modern day Israel perhaps at various times. Based on traditions passed down they saw this as a sign from God and over time the story grew into a legend. Did Pharaoh suffer some kind of a military defeat I believe so, was it as stated in the story of Exodus possibly but I don’t think likely.
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April 7, 2014 at 1:02 pm
Paul, thanks for your response. We can agree to disagree on the Red Sea crossing, that’s fine. There is no need to go further on this.
Can I ask you another question, do you believe the resurrection account of Jesus Christ as it’s written in the bible ? Or do you have alternative explanation as to how a person can rise from the dead ?
Again, just curious. Thanks for the discussion and as always in the spirit of charity !
Naz
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April 7, 2014 at 2:52 pm
Naz,
Short answer yes I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, as you are aware there are some questions regarding timing and some so called inconsistencies in the accounts. Don’t forget, the resurrection doesn’t just say that Jesus Christ rose from the dead like Lazarus, He was actually transformed as I understand. This is an exceptional claim that I believe as a matter of faith even though I have questions.
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April 7, 2014 at 10:13 pm
Paul:
May I offer my version of resurrected life?
Lazarus had a rare form of disease called, in todays’ world, cataplexy. So when he was incapacitated by this disease he appeared as dead.
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April 8, 2014 at 5:48 am
Paul, yes, he was transformed into His eternal body which we also will have when we are resurrected from the dead. That is, those that are in Christ.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1Corinthians 15:51-52)
Beats worm food…….
Naz
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April 8, 2014 at 9:24 am
LTG, I had a thought for you.
Based on your current belief there is no resurrection and no supernatural aspect to Jesus whatsoever, Therefore after I die, is it just worm food or do you have a hereafter in your doctrine. Anyway, whatever, that’s not my point.
So my point is, I have nothing to lose by maintaining my current belief. You on the other hand have everything to lose if the supernatural exists and the resurrection is true.
So if I am really deluded, after I die so what ? Nobody is going to judge me, I’m not going to any Hell since that doesn’t exist in your doctrine either. So I’m either worm food or something else. In any event there is absolutely no risk keeping my current belief. And don’t worry about my current lifestyle, I strive to maintain purity and have struggles like everyone else. I have a wonderful family and try to maintain integrity in my life. So again, my current belief does not hurt me in any way, rather it greatly helps me in a lot of ways.
For those like yourself, you have everything to lose if you’re wrong. By denying our only Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ you forfeit all the glory of eternity God has for you and are doomed to eternal punishment…if I’m right of course. What are you gaining by maintaining your current position ? I don’t see what you could possibly gain. You don’t come across as one who likes to indulge in the carnality of this life and sell their soul, if you will, like so many do who don’t believe in a Law Maker and Judge. Most people would just rather have “sex, drugs and rock n’roll” rather than God. You don’t strike me as that type of person.
I know you believe what you believe because you think you know it’s true. I can appreciate that and everyone has a belief that resonates with them. That aside, consider the gamble and risk you are taking by maintaining this course. I’m not saying you’re a bad person or that I am more righteous than you in any way, that is absolutely what I am not saying. This is about truth and reality in the here and now and in the here after.
This is just another way to look at things. I don’t intend to trivialize what people believe or don’t believe. But sometimes you need to step back and evaluate what you believe and the consequences of that belief system versus something else. Also, i don’t intend to make this sound like a light switch which you can just turn off or on. For a person to change their belief system there has to be a significant event or life changing perspective that has to take place. I don’t mean to trivialize what you or anybody else believes. The point of this is just to step back and look at the forest for a while….
Again, I want to stress, that IF I’m wrong, I have nothing to lose. IF you are wrong, it’s not a good situation my friend……….
(my usage of the word “if” in this post does not denote that I have doubts as to what I believe. The word “if” is used to illustrate my point in the context of this post)
In charity,
Naz
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April 8, 2014 at 9:30 am
Naz & Paul:
Gee BUT I love raining on your parade Naz; and Paul, I can’t understand how anyone can “believe” something on faith while still questioning it. Oh I know religion tries to tell you that you will rise from the dead but what does religion tell you the reason why you have to die in the first place? Well, because you are a guilty sinner and the only cure for sin is death! It is an age-old hoax.
Imagine! To claim that human obedience is so imperative that the purposes of an omnipotent deity and the very fabric of the planet, if not the whole universe, depend upon it and can be catastrophically disrupted at the first whiff of rebellion – and then to claim that such a religion is the source of human freedom! Religion is the ultimate slavery: it is the slavery of the mind, slavery to the fear of divine judgment and damnation. The devilish irony consists in the fact that ‘divine judgment’ and ‘damnation’ are themselves the inventions of religion: religion creates and perfects the fear, then cynically declares itself the sole and indispensable liberator from it.
Believers believe out of fear, I’m afraid. Do yourself a favor and throw off the shackles of tyranny. Whatever there is, “IS”, regardless what anyone beleives; what happens to one will happen to all and it doesn’t matter what you or what anyone believes. The only way to defy the sleep is not to go to sleep and thus immortality shall be ushered in as the Geneticists rise to the power when the New Bible is written with the First Book called GENETICISTS: In the beginning………………
My hope is that we all will see that day, as we glimpse at hints of it now in modern medicine and religion and belief will have nothing to do with it.
Jesus is comparable to heroic atheism challenging self appointed false authority of institutionalized religion.
Jesus was not transformed with an eternal body and from his own mouth he tells you why.
A Ghost Doesn’t Have Muscle and Bone
They didn’t waste a minute. They were up and on their way back to Jerusalem. They found the Eleven and their friends gathered together, talking away: “It’s really happened! The Master has been raised up—Simon saw him!”
Then the two went over everything that happened on the road and how they recognized him when he broke the bread.
While they were saying all this, Jesus appeared to them and said, “Peace be with you.” They thought they were seeing a ghost and were scared half to death. He continued with them, “Don’t be upset, and don’t let all these doubting questions take over. Look at my hands; look at my feet—it’s really me. Touch me. Look me over from head to toe. A ghost doesn’t have muscle and bone like this.” As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet. They still couldn’t believe what they were seeing. It was too much; it seemed too good to be true.
He asked, “Do you have any food here?” They gave him a piece of leftover fish they had cooked. He took it and ate it right before their eyes.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
**40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
** (Luke 24:40 Some printed New Testaments omit this verse. It is found in nearly all Greek manuscripts.)
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April 8, 2014 at 10:12 am
You assume an “eternal body” does not have “muscle and bone”, why? on what basis ?
I think it’s awesome that with the immortal body we can eat and touch. You forgot to mention Jesus passing through walls with His new body. I don’t know about you but i usually have to knock and have someone open the door before I can come in.
Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!”
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Do you really think that a man that had just been crucified, was taken down from the cross of His crucifixion and just causally walked in and said, “Hey guys how’s it going”. Are you deaf as well as blind man ! This man was just crucified, don’t tell me about your “swoon theories” and such, please. Oh yes, then there is the rich man Joseph and his healing balms. They stuck Jesus with a spear ! Jesus died on that cross like all others who are crucified. Do you think he Romans would let Him live ? He was sentenced to death. What do you think the populace would say if the Romans could not carry out there sentence.
Look, if you want to rewrite the scriptures go ahead. You’ve completely changed the whole story as it’s written like you’ve been doing since day 1. How do you think you can do this and be credible, really Leo please. You never take the scriptures at face value you always change the facts. You’re not interested in truth at all, you just want your way to be true, by force.
“Whatever there is, “IS”, regardless what anyone believes” and there is nothing you or I can do about it, no matter what we believe !
Naz
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April 8, 2014 at 12:00 pm
Well, Naz the supernatural (your god for example) cannot be seen, does not have muscle and bones and need Ghostbuster techniques to register on sensitive instruments. Nor does muscle and bones walk through walls which is the ridiculous that Hollywood makes a fortune in movies from.
And why would you say that he was taken down from the cross and casually walked in the room? Because he “appeared” in the midst of him after they were in the room and the doors were shut and locked? Like Captain Kirk in the “beam me in and beam me out”? Well of course Jesus was already in the secret place waiting for the disciples where they always regularly met and so when the meeting was convened, he walked unexpectedly in among the group and they were scared out of their wits because they did not expect anyone to be hiding in their secret meeting place but it was no secret to Jesus. Don’t you have any imagination at all? If you can imagine the impossibility of walking through walls surely you can imagine that Jesus was already in the place waiting for the disciples arrival! He had the “key” don’t you know? Jesus was the one who set the secret premises up, after all, at Joe of Arimathea’s place. Come on Naz I can’t believe you are so sold on the hoax that your imagination has been totally hijacked from normal thought processes; although I have been known to be wrong on occasion.
Of course there was a healing period after he was “spirited” out of the tomb by Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. Jesus didn’t appear suddenly, even when the girls saw him he told them not to touch him because he was still in the healing stage and had only achieved the scabbing phase.
As far as scriptures go, I do take them at face value, but you cannot because of your supernatural bent. Jesus took the scriptures at face value to and the clergy and religionists of his day were furious and called him a blashemer because they too were supernaturally skewed to the point that they wanted to stone Jesus for telling them what the scriptures actually meant. He(God) called them gods unto whom the word of God came”; “Man is master of the Sabbath”; of all the clerical exorcism and miraculous sham they could not cure their own people let alone the infidel Namaan; could not help the people suffering from drought’s famine let alone the infidel Canaanite widow. You are unfortunately in the “poof-poof”, “hocus pocus” mode of “Rub the Lamp and Genie Appears”.
For all intents and purposes Jesus appeared dead on the cross when Pilate was asked for the body..what? asked for the body? by whom?…yeah, the old rich guy Joe; imagine the power and influence Joe had, to be able to go directly, to an audience with Pilate and request the body for burial in the very tomb that Joe himself had hewn out for more than two years and made ready for the inevitable day of the crucifixion. A tomb engineered in such a way that the escape tunnel would fill in without any signs of it ever having been there, after the escape. An engineering feat that I myself can easily replicate; but you’ll have to see the movie. You’ll see it when you believe it Naz.
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April 8, 2014 at 12:57 pm
“Don’t you have any imagination at all?”
LTG, that’s what this is, your imagination. Everything you are saying is not in the text. You are just reading into it with no written facts to back up your claims. You have made this up because you don’t believe it. You will believe anything but what is clearly written in the bible.
The disciples were surprised and scared because they knew that Jesus was dead. John witnessed the soldier putting a spear in his side when the water and blood poured out of his dead body. Jesus was dead and they knew that and that’s why they were hiding because they thought they were next in line. That’s why they thought they saw a spirit when Jesus appeared.
Everything you are saying is conjecture and here-say, you have no historical facts to back up your claims, not to mention your story holds no water to the rest of the scriptures including the explosion of the disciples of Jesus Christ in the 1st century that started on the Day of Pentecost.
The crucifixion and the re-appearance of Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith and you have no historical proof to prove otherwise. All you have are theories and made up stories to try and fit the events in the gospels. You are not taking account the clear written words right in front of your eyes :
Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:44-48)
You can’t run from the crystal clear words of Jesus in Luke 24……
Naz
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April 8, 2014 at 1:39 pm
Son of Man,
Reviving the dead; We know from the news that dead doesn’t mean dead. And from your post I’m now aware of the condition cataplexy. Most of the dead returning to life in the Bible are people who appear to die a non violent death and although miraculous their revival falls within the realm of the natural IMO. The people of that time would see these events as supernatural though. Off the top of my head 3 of the recorded events in the Bible stand out to me as seeming different. They are: Elijah 1 Kings 17: 17-24, Elisha 2 Kings 4: 20-37 and Acts 20: 7-12. The first 2 it seemed to take some time to revive them when comparing to other accounts and Paul seems to be trying to convince us the boy isn’t dead. It’s not till the next verse (which appears to be the morning) the boy is shown to be alive and well. Why in these 3 accounts the dead didn’t just spring back to life I don’t know but it seems strange to me. And what we are talking about here is just reviving the dead not a transformation into a glorified body.
Resurrection of Jesus Christ; As I interpret the resurrection big picture — No wiggle room here, Jesus either rose from the dead or not. His human body was transformed into His glorious body or not, this event is not in the natural realm as stated. Now this is where I get into trouble — I’ve looked as you have into the evidence and I find no proof other than hear say and accounts that the Apostles appeared to change from cowards hiding to fearless preachers of The Gospel. So big picture, since I have no proof and as you know there are problems with the accounts, all I can say is I believe as a matter of faith because I can’t prove my beliefs as fact. We Christians make extraordinary claims but we don’t have extraordinary proof according to my definition. I watch a lot of legal shows on TV. I’m not sure if this is real law or make believe law but some time a judge will tell the jury you can accept all, part or give no weight to testimony/evidence if there seems to be problems. IMO Jesus doesn’t say the Bible is not correct but He interprets things for us that seem to cause into question the original text (eg. dietary laws, Sabbath rules as you previously mentioned, saying if you hate your neighbor your guilty of murder, say if you lust you’ve committed adultery, not condemning the adulteress). And not to get off topic, but I see some verses that appear to call in question other verses (ie. both can’t be right it appears IMO, eg. those about Hell vs. Matthew 10:28 there are more but for me this one is a knock out punch). The Bible is a strange book, it has the death penalty for worshiping a false God then has verses like Gen 1: 26-28 and Deut 6: 4. So depending what definition the authorities have of the Hebrew word for one in Deut 6: 4 you could be stoned to death. As best as I can, I try and discern the word of “The Shepherd” in the Bible when these contradictions appear to me and that is how I’ve formed my beliefs. So if some of my beliefs appear to be contradictions that is the reason. I’ve looked at numerous possibilities to the resurrection story besides the Gospel account — from make believe, revived in tomb, died but body misplaced/stolen by friends or foes for fraud/prank, Jesus was an extraterrestrial from another planet (no joke, has implications in Bible prophesy IMO). The only one that makes sense to me is the Gospel account. But if someone else has looked at the story and come up with a different conclusion I don’t think my belief invalidates their belief, but don’t confuse that with me saying all religions or beliefs have moral equivalence.
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April 8, 2014 at 5:15 pm
Naz:
Show me the text in the bible where it says that Jesus walked through the wall?
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April 8, 2014 at 5:50 pm
Naz:
While you are at it please tell me where it is written: “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” I mean where is it written in the Old Testament,; I can’t seem to find it anywhere except the New Testament but if Jesus said that it was written, it would have had to be written in the Old Testament because the New Testament was not written when he is alleged to have said it is thus written.
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April 8, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Paul:
Yes indeed dead does not always mean dead; the young fellow who fell asleep while Paul was preaching, which is not difficult to do at times when preachers go on and on in monotone. It was such a time as this that the young man fell down from the third loft and hit the floor hard enough to render him unconscious. Paul rushed to him and fell on him, meaning that he listened to his heart beating and his breathing and was taken up limp as dead weight, like he was dead but Paul said his life was still in him because he was breathing and his heart was beating. Then Paul continued talking, had supper and then talked and talked and talked so much until he finally stopped early the next morning, at which time the boy also woke up from his night of sleep. Now there is nothing supernatural about this IMO.
I know what you mean about trying to discern scriptures when verses seem to contradict other verses and the ones I usually cite are in Proverbs. And while they contradict each other they are both correct and only up to one’s discretion when to use one verse and when to use the other.
Provers 26: 4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. and 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
A lot of the error, it seems to me, is because of the supernatural slant with which most people read the bible. So when scriptures talk about Jesus appearing to the disciples for example, in their secret meeting place, the safe house you mentioned, the context can confuse people because of the sequence they speak does not always jive with the written word. Before Paul says that the boy’s life was still in him, the sequence jumps to the end result in the previous sentence so that the end of that sentence says he was picked up dead. But he was not picked up before Paul heard his breath and felt his heart beating and says the boy is okay although in the sequence it is easy to think the boy was dead and Paul miraculously brought him back but that is clearly not what happened. Clearly to me at least.
And so Jesus knew about the safe house and the regular meetings and was there waiting for the disciples, after he was healed sufficiently enough to meet them. But the sequence of Jesus being in the midst of them after the door was shut and locked seemed hocus pocus and he, as some think, walked through the closed door like caspar the friendly ghost. This does not happen in reality but the supernatural is bent on stopping in the brain stem where the reptile brain cannot discern that a leaf blowing in the wind is not alive; to the lizard’s brain, if it moves, it’s alive. The reptile brain is where ritualism lives and religion focuses on this area because with enough repetition, a lie becomes the truth; discernment only takes place in the higher evolved rational brain and many Chrsitians just never reach that plane.
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April 9, 2014 at 5:43 am
Leo, OK it doesn’t literally say he walked through the wall, I’ll give you that. But it also doesn’t say that He was hiding in the room either 🙂 touché !!
As for what Jesus said about “it is written…”
You must read the previous verse which is key to understanding this passage.
“Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,…”
This was not Jesus trying to regurgitate some Old Testament verse because as you said it is not written verbatim in the OT and yes the OT is all that they had at the time. Jesus is opening their understanding so they can understand what the Old Testament was talking about. In a sense it was hidden until the time that Christ came and gave the revelation.
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
In charity,
Naz
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April 9, 2014 at 5:58 am
Leo, I just noticed this, Jesus appeared suddenly to the disciples twice and in both verses the phrase “doors shut” is repeated. It seems to me there is some significance that both accounts mentions the doors were shut before Jesus appeared.
I think your explanation that Jesus was already there is very weak considering the text.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Peace be to you…….:)
Naz
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April 9, 2014 at 9:14 am
Naz:
some translations say other things:
NIV:”19 On the evening of that first day of the week, the disciples were together. They had locked the doors because they were afraid of the Jews.” 26: ” A week later, Jesus’ disciples were in the house again. Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus came in and stood among them.
MSG: 19-20 Later on that day, the disciples had gathered together, but, fearful of the Jews, had locked all the doors in the house. Jesus entered, stood among them, and said, “Peace to you.”
26: “Eight days later, his disciples were again in the room. This time Thomas was with them. Jesus came through the locked doors, stood among them, and said, “Peace to you.”
PHILLIPS: 19 In the evening of that first day of the week, the disciples had met together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews. Jesus came and stood right in the middle of them and said, “Peace be with you!”
26 Just over a week later, the disciples were indoors again and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood in the middle of them and said, “Peace be with you!”
**WYC 19 “Therefore when it was even in that day [Therefore when eventide was in that day], [in] one of the sabbaths, and the gates were shut, where the disciples were gathered, for dread of the Jews, Jesus came, and stood in the middle of the disciples, and he saith to them, Peace to you [and said to them, Peace be to you]”. 26 “And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, while the gates were shut [Jesus came, the gates shut], and stood in the middle, and said, Peace to you.”
Naz:
No matter which version I read, my mind is never sparked to imagine that Jesus walked, muscle and blood and bone, through the door instead of unlocking it or opening it, after all he was the one who set up this safe house at Joe’s House(his best friend) although the bible does not explicitly state that; but, if he was not already inside waiting he certainly had a key to unlock the door, or had other access to the house.
The fact that he “stood in the midst of them”, one can easily assume he walked to the middle of the room and stood in their midst or “appeared among them” also should not assume a supernatural or science fiction Captain Kirk beaming in and out of places, scenario .lol
Do you remember Philip ministering to the Eunuch and then baptizing him?
There are a multitude of Christians who think that Philip beamed out of the Eunuch’s sight and beamed in at Azotus simply because the sentences follow each other they do not assume that Philip went on his way walking or on his donkey or whatever mode of travel he went, the elapsed a certain amount of time before he arrived at Azotus, He did not “Poof”, GONE and then “Poof” appear at Azotus through some supernatural wormhole.
I think sometimes people cannot understand the English language or normal writing styles that describe the characters comings and goings.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
How do you read this? Did Philip Poof out of sight and Poof into Azotusville?
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April 9, 2014 at 10:05 am
Leo:
Regarding the Philip story, I don’t see how this is a miraculous catching away of Philip. I think he just followed the unction of the Holy Spirit and left.
Going back to the “safe house”, I still find it peculiar that the doors being shut was mentioned in both verses. I know that’s not conclusive proof that He “beamed in” but it it could be.
That said, I submit one more piece of evidence that I think backs up my point.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name
At the end of the same chapter John writes that Jesus performed many other “signs” in the presence of His disciples that were not written. In the context I think this would indicate that His appearance was some sort of miraculous sign, like appearing out of nowhere as I suggested. John said many “other” signs suggesting that what just happened was a sign, that is the “beam in”.
Also, John states the reason for writing these accounts is so that we may believe. in other words, John is trying to tell us the miraculous signs that Jesus is performing to prove to the reader that Jesus is who He says He is, the Son of God.
Btw, I could also mention the ascension, but I won’t ……..
Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight…..
Oops, too late… 🙂
Naz
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April 9, 2014 at 12:27 pm
Naz:
Well you sure do have an imagination. But that’s okay….shows you are thinking more about things that Absolute Certainty may not be so certain after all.
Accordingly, regarding the Ascension I will compose for you a special parable to open the scriptures to your mind show you that I am committed, not to a mental institution as you might first be inclined to think, but to disseminate a priori knowledge in order to provide more foundational information with which to use in your scriptural discernment. It is my mission to open the eys of the blind, to lift up the downtrodden, to set the captives free from a tyranny you may not yet see.
Now I am convinced that you are still a seeker of truth. Having said that however, please consider that, with Christ Clear Comments I shall attempt to fulfill the verse you previously cited “Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,…”
I will be busy over the next few hours and it will take some time to compose a parable but please be patient and on my return. In the meantime I leave you with this thought:
It’s human nature to scramble to be on the side of the majority. We will always try to find connections with others that form cliques and create a power base. Put a diverse group of people in a jury room or a lifeboat, and they will attempt to clump. If there are obvious connecting points like skin tones or gender, majorities will form and subtle biases set in. The women will gather against the men. The tall versus the short. The brown eyes versus the blue. But the same phenomenon will happen even if there are no obvious majorities. The introverts will mobilize against the extroverts. Or the morning people versus the night owls. No one wants to be the minority, and no one wants to be oppressed.
Mark Twain, never afraid of being in the minority himself, observed,
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”
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April 9, 2014 at 12:33 pm
Add this to the long list of good reasons to drink green tea: You’ll do a better job. New research shows that green tea improves working memory, which is the type of cognitive functioning that allows you to grasp what you’re reading, or comprehend instructions and then figure out how many people will activate heaven:(Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven) “as many as” are led by the spirit to do, “be-ing” filled with the spirit .
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April 9, 2014 at 12:49 pm
Leo, I drink green tea on occasion and I like it.
If God so will, I believe Jesus Himself can reveal Himself to you in a supernatural way so that you will believe, just like He did to others. I will pray to this end because I realize that I am flawed and can only give so much in terms of discerning the scriptures.
In the end, I submit myself to God’s will on earth as it is in heaven. I believe there is a purpose to all things, including these conversations. Although we don’t see Jesus the same way, I am glad you admire Him in your own way. It is because of this reason that I continue to banter with you.
Touché !!
Naz
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April 20, 2014 at 7:46 pm
Naz:
Re: post 64:
“Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,…”
As promised:
THE PARABLE.
Some people blog like a Ferrari but lace it with loose, supernatural nuts and bolts, like the Model T of antiquity.
On the Ascension?
Once upon a time an army of strong men entered the city, stronger than the defenders the invading army surrounded the forces protecting it, forced the military into surrendering to the invaders superior strength, captured the city and began a governance resented by the captive population.
There was a man who did not accept the strength of subjugation but was hounded by the town’s bullies who themselves were coerced into siding with the invaders in exchange for preferential treatment, wealth, security and freedom to exercise their virtual police authority to quell any signs of dissension and civil unrest in the population.
The Bullies posted a reward for the capture and arrest of their Adversary(AD). The Bullies, also known as the Pulpit Bullies because of the weekly meetings they forced the people to attend, were finally successful with their reward offering and arrested the man they had been hunting for almost three years.
The PB’s brought AD before the captor’s high court and demanded his execution for sedition. After much wrangling, negotiations and incessant calls for the death penalty by the PB’s the captor’s capitulated and agreed to the PB’s demands. AD was sentenced to the gallows.
Now the common law for seditionists among the PB’s relied on the ancient philosophy mindset that states “Smite the Shepherd and his Sheep will Disperse”. And with that the death of the AD was consented and committed to.
Nevertheless there were several members of the PB’s who privately supported AD because they believed AD was a good man whose simple mission was to bring compassion to the downtrodden, food banks to the hungry, Obamacare for the sick, goods and services for the poor and education for the disillusioned.
Thanks to the several wealthy friends however, knowing several year’s in advance what their colleagues had in mind after the eventual capture, forewarned AD and suggested that when the day inevitably came, they must prepare a plan to intervene in the gallows process and not allow an innocent man to die for the sins of the PB’s self serving dogma. Nic and Joe set their plans. Prep a tomb with escape tunnel by an ingenius feat of engineering that would erase any traces of the escape tunnel and cause the stone to roll away from the tomb entrance on its own as if by magic, like a miracle.
Beforehand however there was the dangerous crucifixion process that would need to be mitigated, possibly by using a Peanius Dioscorides soporific sponge to induce general anesthesia.
Nic and Joe executed their burial plan. Joe had a private audience with Pilate who authorized Joe to take possession of AD’s body for burial. The Stone was rolled in place to secure the entrance. After dark Nic and Joe retrieved the body and rushed out of the tomb. In the early dawn with AD having been moved to the “Safe House”, revived and medicated, the stealthy duo returned to activate the engineering design that would cover their tracks and the healing process began to nurse Ad back to vitality.
When AD was healed from his beatings he met with his friends who advised him that they only way for him to remain safe from another attack was to leave the country. AD agreed. Of course he bade his close friends and companions goodbye but his closest partner, his soul mate and love of his life would travel with him to a new home, along with a trusted support staff, at the end of the long journey ahead.
The day of departure arrived and with the morning sun rising, the dry dusty road invited the entourage of horses, donkeys and wagon wheels to the winding trail. With waves, tears and goodbyes the entourage stirred the desert dust to life rising in the air as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher as they raced up the hill and to the horizon. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon.
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April 21, 2014 at 7:54 am
Leo, thanks for the parable, I’ll stick with the real story as it’s written.
Best regards,
Naz
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April 21, 2014 at 3:34 pm
Naz:
With all due respect you have never read the real story; my story follows the scriptural story, maybe you just need to read it from ancient eyes but you need to read it and so must every Christian who professes to follow Jesus. Sure it’s a challenge.
Matt 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Matt 25-26 Abruptly Jesus broke into thanks: “Thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. You’ve concealed your ways from sophisticates and know-it-alls, but spelled them out clearly to ordinary people. Yes, Father, that’s the way you like to work.”
27 Jesus resumed talking to the people, but now tenderly. “The Father has given me all these things to do and say. This is a unique Father-Son operation, coming out of Father and Son intimacies and knowledge. No one knows the Son the way the Father does, nor the Father the way the Son does. But I’m not keeping it to myself; I’m ready to go over it line by line with anyone willing to listen.
Matt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
15 But when Jesus knew it,(from Nic & Joe, his secret disciples) he withdrew himself from thence:
Luke 11:52 “You’re hopeless, you religion scholars! You took the key of knowledge, but instead of unlocking doors, you locked them. You won’t go in yourself, and won’t let anyone else in either.”
53-54 As soon as Jesus left the table, the religion scholars and Pharisees went into a rage. They went over and over everything he said, plotting how they could trap him in something from his own mouth
Why Tell Stories?
10 The disciples asked, “Why do you tell stories?”
11-15 He replied, “Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears. That’s why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they’re blue in the face and not get it. I don’t want Isaiah’s forecast repeated all over again:
Your ears are open but you don’t hear a thing. Your eyes are awake but you don’t see a thing. The people are blockheads! They stick their fingers in their ears so they won’t have to listen; They screw their eyes shut so they won’t have to look, so they won’t have to deal with me face-to-face and let me heal them.
16-17 “But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.
Whoever Becomes Simple Again
Matt 18:3 Jesus said, “I’m telling you, once and for all, that unless you return to square one and start over like children, you’re not even going to get a look at the kingdom, let alone get in. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matt 26: 17 the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare your Passover meal?”
18-19 He said, “Enter the city. Go up to a certain man (Joe’s Place) and say, ‘The Teacher says, My time is near. I and my disciples plan to celebrate the Passover meal at your house.’” The disciples followed Jesus’ instructions to the letter, and prepared the Passover meal.
John 11: 47,48 The high priests and Pharisees called a meeting of the Jewish ruling body. “What do we do now?” they asked. “This man keeps on doing things, creating God-signs. If we let him go on, pretty soon everyone will be believing in him and the Romans will come and remove what little power and privilege we still have.”
49-52 Then one of them—it was Caiaphas, the designated Chief Priest that year—spoke up, “Don’t you know anything? Can’t you see that it’s to our advantage that one man dies for the people rather than the whole nation be destroyed?” He didn’t say this of his own accord, but as Chief Priest that year he unwittingly prophesied that Jesus was about to die sacrificially for the nation, and not only for the nation but so that all God’s exile-scattered children might be gathered together into one people.
53-54 From that day on, they plotted to kill him. So Jesus no longer went out in public among the Jews. He withdrew into the country bordering the desert to a town called Ephraim and secluded himself there with his disciples.
Gethsemane
(Having heard from Nic and Joe about Judas and the appointed time of betrayal) John 18 Jesus, left with his disciples and crossed over the brook Kidron at a place where there was a garden. He and his disciples entered it. 2 Judas, his betrayer, knew the place because Jesus and his disciples went there often.
Matt 26:31-32 Then Jesus told them, “Before the night’s over, you’re going to fall to pieces because of what happens to me. There is a Scripture that says,
I’ll strike the shepherd; helter-skelter the sheep will be scattered.
Zechariah 13 “On the Big Day,( WHEN YOUR EYES (and heart, OPEN) a fountain will be opened for scrubbing their stained and soiled lives clean.
2-3 “On the Big Day”—this is God-of-the-Angel-Armies speaking—“I will wipe out the store-bought gods, erase their names from memory. People will forget they ever heard of them. And I’ll get rid of the prophets who polluted the air with their diseased words. If anyone dares persist in spreading diseased, polluting words, his very own parents will step in and say, ‘That’s it! You’re finished! Your lies about God put everyone in danger………
4-6 “On the Big Day, the lying prophets will be publicly exposed and humiliated. Then they’ll wish they’d never swindled people with their ‘visions.’ No more masquerading in prophet clothes. But they’ll deny they’ve even heard of such things: ‘Me, a prophet? Not me. I’m a farmer—grew up on the farm.’ And if someone says, ‘And so where did you get that black eye?’ they’ll say, ‘I ran into a door at a friend’s house.’
7-9 “Sword, get moving against my shepherd, against my close associate!” Kill the shepherd! Scatter the sheep! The back of my hand against even the lambs! All across the country”—God’s Decree— “two-thirds will be devastated and one-third survive. I’ll deliver the surviving third to the refinery fires. I’ll refine them as silver is refined, test them for purity as gold is tested. Then they’ll pray to me by name and I’ll answer them personally. I’ll say, ‘That’s my people.’ They’ll say, ‘God—that’s my God!’”
The Crucifixion
Matt 27: 47-49 Some bystanders who heard him said, “He’s calling for Elijah.” One of them ran and got a (sporific) sponge soaked in sour wine and lifted it on a stick so he could drink. The others joked, “Don’t be in such a hurry. Let’s see if Elijah comes and saves him.”
50 But Jesus, again crying out loudly, breathed his last (and went unconscious)
The Tomb
Matt 27:57-61 Late in the afternoon a wealthy man from Arimathea, a disciple of Jesus, arrived. His name was Joseph. He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Pilate granted his request. Joseph took the body and wrapped it in clean linens, put it in his own tomb, a new tomb only recently cut into the rock, and rolled a large stone across the entrance.
Matt 28: 11-15 Meanwhile, the guards had scattered, but a few of them went into the city and told the high priests everything that had happened. They called a meeting of the religious leaders and came up with a plan: They took a large sum of money and gave it to the soldiers, bribing them to say, “His disciples came in the night and stole the body while we were sleeping.” They assured them, “If the governor hears about your sleeping on duty, we will make sure you don’t get blamed.” The soldiers took the bribe and did as they were told. That story, cooked up in the Jewish High Council, is still going around.
Luke 12:4-5 “I’m speaking to you as dear friends. Don’t be bluffed into silence or insincerity by the threats of religious bullies.
Luke 23 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar……
Israel was under Roman rule at the time of Jesus. The leaders of Israel had gotten their position or held their position of rulership in the hierarchy (which is the way that Rome operated) by putting themselves under Roman authority. They were afraid of losing their place—AS they state it here–they realized that the Romans would take away their place–their position–their right to rule over others–which is what they had under Roman control. The Pharisees AKA the Pulpiut Bullies) were rulers by the authority of Rome, and the proof of this is that they were worried about losing their nation, or the rule of it, as stated in John 11.
John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39 And there came also Nicodemus,(also a disciple secretly) which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
………..as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher as they raced up the hill and to the horizon. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon………….into a new world, a new country and the Impact of Truth that testified against the religious world.
John 7:7,8 “The world has nothing against you, but it’s up in arms against me. It’s against me because I expose the evil behind its pretensions. You go ahead, go to the supernatural party. Don’t wait for me. I’m not ready. It’s not the party of truth.”
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April 21, 2014 at 4:01 pm
Naz:
If the following is the real story,
Matt 27: The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
51-53 At that moment, the Temple curtain was ripped in two, top to bottom. There was an earthquake, and rocks were split in pieces. What’s more, tombs were opened up, and many bodies of believers asleep in their graves were raised. (After Jesus’ resurrection, they left the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.)
I submit your sanity is impeached.
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April 22, 2014 at 7:35 am
LTG, I’m not the one changing and editing the scriptures as they were written, you are.
Naz
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April 22, 2014 at 1:32 pm
Naz:
I have given you about 65 verses directly from scripture to support the real biblical story; there are lots more I did not include; however, is there at least ONE particular verse that I have changed and edited from the quotes I provided; I would love to know which one or more verses you claim that has been changed and edited by me from the Bible accounts, to support your allegations?
Can you be specific and quote ANY verse that has been changed or edited? Any?
Writing style does not by itself determine the essence of what the writer is trying to convey, much of essence is how the reader interprets it.
A simple analogy: “See Tom and Betty run. See Tom and Betty play with the ball”.
This says nothing about if they are indoors or outdoors, what they are wearing, are they running alongside each other or separately; who’s in front, in back. Is it sunny, rainy, misty, cloudy. Is the ball red, white or blue or all of the above, or none of the above, is it big, small, average; soccer, softball, basketball, are they using a bat, are they playing catch or kick? Are they on the grass, in the hayfield, on the roadway, behind the barn. What is the season?
If I said they were playing with a volleyball and hitting it over the net, you might object, “But it doesn’t say that”. Yes, and you’d be right.
And if you said they were playing catch, back and forth, then I could say: “But it doesn’t say that”, and I’d be right too.
But another person might say that Betty threw the ball out into the lake and Tom ran so fast to fetch the ball that he skimmed right across the lake, plucked up the ball and brought it back and gave it to Betty. And we might both say, “Hey but it doesn’t say that.” And we’d both be right.
My first account “playing with a volleyball and hitting it over the net” might be boring and your account “they were playing catch, back and forth” might also be boring but the third account:
The third account might be so fantastic that everyone wanted to see Tom run and out of the excitment created a whole new comic book or TV series could be started about Tom who could run so fast that he could run on top of the water and you could sell a quadrillion copies because people wanted to believe in The Champion Runner. The Superman Runner who could run and save you from any disaster…………..etc, etc & etc.
Leo
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April 22, 2014 at 3:07 pm
Here’s one ………..
John 7:7,8 “The world has nothing against you, but it’s up in arms against me. It’s against me because I expose the evil behind its pretensions. You go ahead, go to the supernatural party. Don’t wait for me. I’m not ready. It’s not the party of truth.”
Here’s another ….
………..as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher as they raced up the hill and to the horizon. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon………….into a new world, a new country and the Impact of Truth that testified against the religious world.
Naz
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April 23, 2014 at 6:53 am
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. (2Peter 3:15-18)
Naz
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April 23, 2014 at 5:33 pm
Naz:
PART ONE re: your Post #73
John 7:6-8(MSG)
6-8 Jesus came back at them, “Don’t crowd me. This isn’t my time. It’s your time—it’s always your time; you have nothing to lose. The world has nothing against you, but it’s up in arms against me. It’s against me because I expose the evil behind its pretensions. You go ahead, go up to the Feast. Don’t wait for me. I’m not ready. It’s not the right time for me.”
My interpretive version:
John 7:7,8 “The world has nothing against you, but it’s up in arms against me. It’s against me because I expose the evil behind its pretensions. You go ahead, go to the **(supernatural party). Don’t wait for me. I’m not ready. **(It’s not the party of truth.)
**Based on John 7:1-2 it is easy enough to say that the supernatural Party was not the Party of truth:
7 1-2 “…..Jesus was going about his business in Galilee. He didn’t want to travel in Judea because the Jews there were looking for a chance to kill him. It was near the time of Tabernacles, a feast(party) observed annually by the Jews.
The curse for disobedience:
“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain” (Zech. 14:16-17).
This is the party where the Jews had determined to kill Jesus, not exactly the party of truth and from Zechariah, not the party based on anything but supernaturalism and superstition.
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April 23, 2014 at 6:16 pm
Naz:
PART TWO re: your Post #73
My narrative: ………..as the hooves and wagon wheels kicked the cloud of dust higher and higher they raced up the hill and to the horizon.
From the Bible
Acts 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
My narrative: As the entourage ascended the hill and disappeared into the cloud, dust-filled horizon………….into a new world, a new country and the Impact of Truth that testified against the religious world.
2 Samuel 13:34
Absalom fled. Just then the sentry on duty looked up and saw a cloud of dust on the road from Horonaim alongside the mountain. He came and told the king, “I’ve just seen a bunch of men on the Horonaim road, coming around the mountain.”
Song of Solomon 3:6-10
What’s this I see, approaching from the desert, raising clouds of dust, Filling the air with sweet smells and pungent aromatics? Look! It’s Solomon’s carriage, carried and guarded by sixty soldiers, sixty of Israel’s finest, All of them armed to the teeth, trained for battle, ready for anything, anytime.
Ezekiel 26:10
By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee;
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April 24, 2014 at 6:09 am
Your interpretation is wrong.
Naz
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April 24, 2014 at 6:10 am
Your “narratives” are additions to the text. They are wrong also.
The scripture is not open to private interpretation.
This conversation is over…….
Naz
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April 24, 2014 at 10:51 am
Naz:
Your interpretation is wrong.
Your narratives of walking through walls and doors are additions to the text; defying the laws of physics and disappearing into the clouds in the sky are additions to text; and may be wrong. A billion people may believe a lie but no lie is ever the truth and no truth is ever a lie regardless of how many believe otherwise.
“the scripture is not open to private interpretation” and who says so?
“…knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation….”
Do you not understand that, that statement itself was a private interpretation by whoever wrote 2 Peter 1:19-21?
You use exactly the same kind of rhetoric the Pharisees used accusing Jesus because Jesus interpreted many scriptures privately, saying for example that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath so man can do whatever he wants to on the Sabbath contrary to church dogma, which infuriated the Pharisees.
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