Those who won’t bend their knee to God typically won’t nod their head to truth either. By this, I mean that someone who is unwilling to acknowledge God’s authority over their life is not likely to acknowledge God’s truth either when that truth conflicts with their desire for self-autonomy.
So when we offer reasons and evidence for the truth of Christianity (an apologetic), and those reasons and that evidence are rejected by the unbeliever, it’s not necessarily because our reasons are bad or the evidence isn’t good (although, that’s not to say I haven’t heard bad arguments offered by Christians). It is simply the fact that the same will that is bent against God’s authority is also bent against God’s truth. If the unbeliever acknowledged God’s truth, they would also have to acknowledge that their continued rejection of God is based purely on their obstinate will. So instead, they reject that truth and continue to pretend that their rejection of God is based on intellectual merits. This is not a failure of apologetics, but a failure of the human will.
Thinking to Believe 
May 7, 2021 at 7:20 pm
Jason, I’d say that it is absolutely the failure of the human will.
Anybody with reasonable intelligence who ponders nature, the human body and everything under a microscope and through a telescope will know in their spirit that it was all created by a Creator….a.k.a God Almighty, the One True God of Israel…..a.k.a Jesus Christ who was God manifested in the flesh.
LikeLiked by 1 person
May 7, 2021 at 8:48 pm
TR ……… they only work on the wheat. they don’t work on the tares ….. but that’s because if you are not called you can’t hear. hilariously the bible warns the tares will believe the lying signs and wonders of the false prophet though.
LikeLike
May 10, 2021 at 10:35 am
Apologetics isn’t mainly to help the unbeliever believe… it’s to make the believer more “secure” in his belief.
LikeLike
May 10, 2021 at 12:21 pm
Apologetics can be very effective for a person with an open mind. I recall some time ago listening to a debate which took place in England between William Craig and a fella whose name escapes me (it may have been a team effort—time obscures the details). Anyway, the attending students were asked to vote on who won the debate. They were repeatedly instructed to vote according to debating points and not their personal biases. Taking off my Christianity hat, I listened for debating points only and concluded that Craig had won hands-down. It wasn’t even close. However, though the student body agreed that Craig had won, the final tally was extremely close. It was clearly obvious that they ignored the plea to be objective and voted their biases.
People tend to believe what they want to believe and to hear what they want to hear. For such people, apologetics can be a waste of time. One is best advised to give one’s personal testimony and leave it at that.
Nonetheless, for an unbeliever who is open to the evidence, apologetics can be very helpful in dispelling the doubts they have about the reasonableness of theism. They can also be helpful in solidifying the faith of believers have to endure the withering assault of skepticism at school. At bottom, I think a combination of things lead to a person’s conversion. So, it isn’t wise to look to apologetics as the knockdown method for soul-winning. It is simply a tool in one’s arsenal of evangelism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
May 10, 2021 at 12:28 pm
WOW, so beautifully said Scalia.
The debate that you refer to is a great example of critical-thinking vs bias.
And what you say below is 100% right one…..
Scalia said~~~~
“People tend to believe what they want to believe and to hear what they want to hear. For such people, apologetics can be a waste of time. One is best advised to give one’s personal testimony and leave it at that.”
“Nonetheless, for an unbeliever who is open to the evidence, apologetics can be very helpful in dispelling the doubts they have about the reasonableness of theism. They can also be helpful in solidifying the faith of believers have to endure the withering assault of skepticism at school. At bottom, I think a combination of things lead to a person’s conversion. So, it isn’t wise to look to apologetics as the knockdown method for soul-winning. It is simply a tool in one’s arsenal of evangelism.”
AMEN & AMEN Scalia!
LikeLike
May 12, 2021 at 4:43 pm
“I mean that someone who is unwilling to acknowledge God’s authority over their life is not likely to acknowledge God’s truth either when that truth conflicts with their desire for self-autonomy.”
You really should actually TALK to non-believers to find out what they really think, rather than making assumptions about them. I personally know a LOT of atheists, agnostics and other non-believers, and I can tell you with certainty that literally NONE of them are UNWILLING to “acknowledge God’s authority,” they simply don’t believe he exists. Put it this way: why are YOU unwilling to acknowledge Shiva’s authority over your life? Is it because of your “obstinate will”? No, it’s because you’re not a Hindu and don’t believe Shiva exists, and thus there’s no such authority to acknowledge, right? Well, THAT is the standard you should use for understanding non-believers.
The reason apologetics almost never works is because all the arguments are based on fallacious reasoning. Most typically they use special pleading, arguments from ignorance or incredulity, appeals to consequences, arguments from authority, circular reasoning, shifting the burden of proof, arguments by assertion, and ad hominem arguments. None of them are valid arguments, and thus they are not convincing to most people.
Ultimately, religious belief depends solely on faith, not on arguments, and either you have faith or you don’t. You can’t simply will yourself to believe no matter how much you may want to.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 12:47 pm
Neil Carter was a passionate evangelical Christian in the deep South for 20 years before finally becoming an atheist. In reviewing Tim Keller’s The Reason for God, he provides an excellent example of how the common evangelical claim that atheists “reject” God “based purely on their obstinate will” is simply wrong:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2021/05/11/straw-skepticism-and-the-reason-for-god/
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 12:56 pm
Isn’t it tragic how it was atheists who have tortured & murdered hundreds of millions of Christians & Jews throughout history via Communism?
This is why atheism & rejection of the One True God of Israel is so dangerous and deadly.
Atheists possess no sense of morality…they have nothing to measure morality to.
It’s sad to be an atheist.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 1:20 pm
It is true that some of the mass-murdering dictators like Stalin and Mao (though not Hitler, who was evidently a Christian) were atheists. It’s also true that their atrocities cannot be blamed on their atheism, since atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in gods. It does NOT mean a lack of belief in morality, as the much lower crime rates and social problems found among atheists and low religiosity countries can attest.
The reality is that authoritarian rulers use BOTH atheism and religion as tools to maintain power. The most important characteristic all such rulers have in common is that THEY must be the highest authorities in their land. THEY must control the worship of their people. Since religions have gods that are always the highest authorities, authoritarian rulers need to either abolish religions (by embracing atheism) or control religions (by either speaking for their gods or manipulating the priests who speak for their gods). The real problem is the worship of and blind obedience to authority, not atheism or religion per se. Worship in any form short-circuits rational thinking by requiring unquestioning loyalty.
Furthermore, people often commit atrocities in the name of their religion because their scriptures contain passages that give them justification to commit acts of evil—like murder, genocide, theft, slavery, torture, child abuse, and so on. Atheism has nothing like the Bible to justify atrocities like those committed by Hitler. Stalin, Mao and others were evil authoritarians who wanted to exert absolute control over their people, and they could have used either religion or atheism to do it. As communists, atheism was simply more convenient for them. But nobody commits atrocities in the name of atheism, because—again—atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in gods. It’s NOT a lack of belief in morality, and atheists have plenty of good reasons to be good people—something I would be happy to detail for you, if you are interested.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” — Steven Weinberg
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 1:29 pm
Just the very fact that allude to the fallacy that Hitler was a Christian is enough to make void the rest of your argument.
Belief in the One True God a.k.a Jesus Christ is not the same as “religion”….because even atheism is a religion of sorts….and there are plenty of destructive religions in this world.
Islam being one of them because their religion is based on forced conversions and they glorify death & jihadism.
Witchcraft i& wicca & paganism are also wicked religions……so let’s remove the word “religion.”
Morality comes straight from that same One True God…..without Him, there is no morality….none.
LikeLiked by 1 person
May 13, 2021 at 1:39 pm
Actually, I think I WILL address your claim against atheists being moral. First, if atheists lack a basis for morality, then why do the hundreds of millions of atheists around the world behave so well? Why aren’t they running through the streets committing murders and rapes because, well, why not?
Why are the nations with the best overall health, best education, highest happiness levels, highest life expectancy, highest incomes, highest freedom index, lowest crime rates, lowest abortion rates, lowest teen pregnancy rates, lowest STD rates, lowest infant mortality, lowest unemployment, lowest income inequality, and lowest gender inequality also among the most SECULAR nations in the world. They include Japan, France, South Korea, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Iceland, Australia, Ireland, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Israel, Canada and the UK. The health and crime statistics for those nations are also mostly better than those for the United States, which is one of the most religious nations in the developed world. Meanwhile, the countries that are the poorest, least healthy and most violent also tend to be among the MOST religious nations.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/08/09/these-are-the-10-most-atheistic-and-religious-countries/
http://www.toptenz.net/10-countries-lowest-crime-rates.php
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ranked-20-happiest-countries-2020/#6520c64f7850
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/atheists-countries-list-six-world-most-convinced-a6946291.html
Why aren’t our prisons disproportionately filled with atheists instead of mostly Christians, Muslims and other theists: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/ ? Secular citizens are LESS likely to commit crimes than are Christians. For example, in 2015 atheists represented just 0.1% of the total US federal prison population, which is only a small fraction of the 3-6% of the general population who were atheists. That’s a LOT better than most Christians are doing.
One reason atheists do so well is because the religious often base their morality on ancient scriptures that condone murder, genocide, slavery, rape, theft, torture, etc., whereas most atheists base their morality on treating others the way they themselves would prefer to be treated. They don’t have to tap dance around topics like slavery that the Bible clearly endorses—they know it’s wrong and can condemn it without equivocating. Also, to someone who believes in an eternal afterlife, this life is nothing more than a waiting room before passing though the door to eternity. But to an atheist, this is the ONLY life they have, so they’d better make the best of it. I personally want to live in a world where people treat each other well, not one rife with violence, abuse and destruction…so I work toward making the kind of society I want to live in, just as most atheists do. You don’t need religion in order to understand that. All you need is compassion.
It’s important to keep in mind is that we’re genetically predisposed to care about others. Many species—even primitive ones—have genes that encourage them to be protective of their offspring because it increases their chances of survival. And as we often see in nature, it doesn’t take much to extend that protective instinct beyond the family unit.
Furthermore, there is an evolutionary basis for morality. Social species can cooperate and specialize, which gives them an advantage over solitary species. However, to be social requires codes of conduct to interact safely and effectively…which is why even piranha know not to attack one another. Thus, genes for behaviors that improve social cohesion and cooperation become selected for in nature. Since human beings are among the most social of social species, we have evolved a capacity for complex moral behavior…although how that manifests itself can vary substantially among different societies. The point is, atheists do indeed have a basis for morality, and it doesn’t require any lawgiver or any one set of absolute rules, just normal evolutionary forces that occur in nature every day.
Apologists often claim that without a code of conduct provided by divine decree, morality is purely subjective. Well, nobody enjoys being made to suffer, so it makes perfect sense to avoid inflicting misery on others if you don’t want others to inflict it upon you. So is treating others the way you want to be treated objective or subjective? Who cares? Because either way it WORKS. That’s why it’s always been a key component of so many philosophies and religions.
Ironically, those who believe that GOD determines right and wrong are the ones who believe in moral subjectivity. After all, morality based on God’s whim is morality based on whom you ARE, rather than what you DO…which is the very definition of subjective.
So if you think it’s sad to be an atheist, well, you’ve been gaslighted by your pastors or whatever is your source for information. I think you’ll find most atheists to be a happy lot.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 1:48 pm
“Just the very fact that allude to the fallacy that Hitler was a Christian is enough to make void the rest of your argument.”
Oh REALLY? Well, let’s just have a look at the record, shall we?
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” — Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 46
“I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work.” — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 65
“We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity…in fact our movement is Christian.” — Adolf Hitler, speech in Passau, 1928
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!, was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.” — Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922
Christians often attempt to distance themselves from Hitler by claiming he wasn’t a “true Christian”…but who is to say who is a true Christian? ALL Christian denominations inevitably call many other Christian denominations “not true Christians.” That claim is known as the “No True Scotsman” fallacy because it attempts to dismiss another’s behavior (like Hitler’s) as insufficiently Christian. But Hitler’s behavior was not at all inconsistent with the Bible’s teachings. Keep in mind that the God of the Bible often orders genocide, and Moses claimed that God told him to order the Levites to murder 3000 of their own family members and friends. Who is to say Hitler’s behavior was any less biblical than that of Moses?
• Exodus 32:27-29 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
And just for good measure, here are some more Hitler-like atrocities ordered by God:
• 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. [God orders babies murdered.]
• Ezekiel 9:5-7 “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all—old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with corpses! Go!” So they went and began killing throughout the city.” [God ordered little children murdered.]
• Ezekiel 35:7-9 I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
• Isaiah 13:15-18 Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. [More of God ordering little children murdered.]
• Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
• Deuteronomy 7:16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity.
• Numbers 21:3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns.
Do you STILL think there isn’t a reasonable claim that Hitler was a Christian? If so, the cognitive bias in you must be epic.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 2:01 pm
Yes and we believe what comes out of Hitler’s mouth….right.
And who is it that the Lord commanded His people to kill?
Cultures who engaged in human sacrifice of both adults, children and infants… which is MURDER…..and guess what Derek?……premeditated MURDER is still punishable by death………or is it just the aborted babies that you think it’s OK to murder?
Your argument has no credence with me….thank you very much.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 4:23 pm
Don’t make me laugh Derek.
Antifa = Communism & BLM = Marxism…..BOTH ATHEISTS.
Let’s not forget the biggest organization who kill humans in the womb…Margaret Sanger and planned parenthood, a racist organization who’s purpose was to wipe out the Black race.
…and that is only three of many atheist terrorist organizations who cause mayhem and death
Then we circle back to world leaders who were / and are atheists…..hundreds of millions of people SLAUGHTERED by these atheists.
You are Leo/Leona and the only “gaslighters” I see right now.
It is a total waste of time to engage with you because the mind of an atheist such as you cannot discern good from evil.
Good-bye gaslighting atheist Derek.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 4:55 pm
“Yes and we believe what comes out of Hitler’s mouth….right.”
Oh, but you DO believe what came out of Moses’ mouth, right? Moses claimed to be doing God’s work when he ordered his people to slaughter their own friends and family. Hitler claimed to be doing God’s work when he ordered his people to slaughter the Jews. So what’s the difference? The only difference is you believe one and disbelieve the other…without any credible justification for doing so.
“And who is it that the Lord commanded His people to kill?”
Children. God ordered his people to murder innocent children, as well as slaughtering many himself:
• Isaiah 13:15-18 Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
• 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
• 2 Samuel 12:13-18 “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.” The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the child. … On the seventh day the child died.
• Ezekiel 9:5-7 “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all—old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with corpses! Go!” So they went and began killing throughout the city.”
• 2 Kings 2:23-24 And as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
• Jeremiah 13:14 I will smash them one against the other, parents and children alike, declares the Lord. I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.
• Numbers 31:17-18 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
• Ezekiel 35:7-9 I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
• Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
• Deuteronomy 7:16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity.
• Numbers 21:3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns.
• Joshua 10:40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded.
Clearly you dismiss all those atrocities as just God doing his thing, right? It’s fine for God to treat children like insects to be stepped on at his whim, even though being all knowing and all powerful means he could EASILY prevent the situations that would lead to him ordering his people to hack babies to death.
But abortion? Even though a tiny clump of cells is incapable of thought, incapable of feeling, and is nothing more than potential…that’s somehow far worse than anything God has done in the Bible? Even though the ONLY thing the Bible says about abortion (despite it having been a common process at least as far back as 1550 BC) is is that God TEACHES priests to use abortion as a form of punishment for infidelity:
• Numbers 5:24-27 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her … he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: WHEN SHE IS MADE TO DRINK THE WATER THAT BRINGS A CURSE AND CAUSES BITTER SUFFERING, IT WILL ENTER HER, HER ABDOMEN WILL SWELL AND HER WOMB WILL MISCARRY, and she will become a curse.
I’m beginning to think you’ve never read the entire Bible or studied any of its consequences. So I suspect you are probably not aware that because Christianity shares basically the same Old Testament books as Judaism, Hebrew texts can shed light on early Christian beliefs. According to the Babylonian Talmud (which is a rabbinical discussion of the meaning of the first five books of the Old Testament), the early embryo is not considered human life:
• Yevamot 69b If she is pregnant, until forty days from conception the fetus is merely water. It is not yet considered a living being.
More directly, abortions are acceptable if the mother’s life is in danger. And the fetus isn’t even considered a person until it is half-way emerged from its mother:
• Ohalot 7:6 (ah-he-lot) If a woman is having trouble giving birth, they cut up the child in her womb and brings it forth limb by limb, because her life comes before the life of the child. But if the greater part has come out, one may not touch it, for one may not set aside one person’s life for that of another.
Since Christians follow the same God and the same Old Testament books as the scholars, those passages shouldn’t be ignored. Either way, though, your outrage against abortion really isn’t warranted.
Oh, and one more thing, when Roe v. Wade was passed in 1973, many Christian denominations SUPPORTED abortion rights…until Republicans made it a political issue. Even now, most people, INCLUDING most Christians, are pro-choice. In fact, Christians obtain 70% of abortions. The sad truth is, most Christian conservatives who consider themselves “pro-life” are really just pro-BIRTH, since they generally don’t support programs to make birth control easily available, to reduce child poverty, or to provide child care, nor do they typically support the elimination of the death penalty (THAT would be pro-life). Instead they support “abstinence only” education, which has proven to be a resounding failure:
http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/17/when-southern-baptists-were-pro-choice/
http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/70-of-women-who-get-abortions-identify-as-christians-survey-finds-150937/
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/08/23/545289168/abstinence-education-is-ineffective-and-unethical-report-argues
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 5:25 pm
“Antifa = Communism & BLM = Marxism…..BOTH ATHEISTS.”
NEITHER claim is true. Antifa isn’t even an organization; it’s an ideology against fascism with no religious or political orientation (beyond anti-fascism) at all: https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ap-top-news-elections-james-comey-politics-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e. I remember when conservatives were deeply anti-fascist. Now they support white supremacists and authoritarians, who are FAR more dangerous to America than Antifa or BLM. From https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7:
“in the last 25 years, no murders in the US have been linked to anti-fascists, while 329 murders have been linked to the far-right, according to new research. … The review found that only one person’s death in that period was linked to “antifa,” a leaderless movement dedicated to combatting right-wing and white supremacist groups, and the person who died was the attacker.”
As for BLM, of course the conservative white supremacist media are spreading misinformation about it. In fact, Politifact has debunked all the common claims here: https://www.politifact.com/personalities/black-lives-matter/. And while I suspect you don’t like nuance, calling BLM Marxist is inaccurate. Yes, two of the original founding members considered themselves Marxists, but BLM is now a national movement that has NOTHING to do with Marxism: https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/
I’m afraid you’ve been gaslighted yet again. Again, if you follow the extreme right-wing media, you’re guaranteed to be exposed to highly unreliable and inaccurate data. And again, look up your news sources on the Media Bias Chart to see how they stack up, and you’ll see your sources are unreliable: https://www.adfontesmedia.com/rankings-by-individual-news-source/. Left or right, hyperpartisan news sources are unreliable. Still, there are some media sites that skew slightly right that are nevertheless reliable, including Bloomberg, The Hill, Reuters, UPI, Stars and Stripes and even Christianity Today: https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/. But if you’re getting your information from anything like Fox News or further right, you are misinformed.
“Then we circle back to world leaders who were / and are atheists…..hundreds of millions of people SLAUGHTERED by these atheists.”
I provided the evidence for why it’s TOTALITARIANISM and AUTHORITARIANISM that is to blame for the TENS of millions killed in the past century, and that atheism and religion are merely tools for those types of leaders. That being said, atheism cannot be used to JUSTIFY committing atrocities…but religion can.
“You are Leo/Leona and the only “gaslighters” I see right now.”
Excuse me, but you have consistently made unsupported assertions again and again, and the rare times you provide ANY supportive evidence, it’s from hyper-partisan, low-reliability right-wing news sources, which hardly makes your claims credible. I, OTOH, have consistently provided you with cogent, well-thought-out arguments and supported them with evidence from nearly exclusively low-bias, highly reliable sources. Seriously, look over your posts and compare them to mine. The one who is trying to gaslight people is not me…it’s you.
Clearly you live in a bubble of right-wing misinformation, as I have demonstrated again and again, and so much of the blame for your misinformation can be placed directly on them. But you should know better by now that you’ve been exposed to unreliable news sources and you should be eager to correct that problem. But you seem uninterested in doing so. That’s on you.
LikeLike
May 13, 2021 at 10:36 pm
Derek, you are either incredibly naïve or an incredible liar….or both…I think both, especially in regards to Antifa & BLM.
I born in Oakland and raised in Berkeley and I remember VERY WELL the days of The Black Panther Party, Angela Davis, Bobby Seale, Huey Newton and their inspiration and their true agenda.
I know the true agenda of the democrat party with their domestic terrorists called the KKK and their implementation of segregation which is now evolved into using Black people for their votes, keeping them on the plantation of welfare and robbing them of their dignity.
But many THANK GOD Black people are waking up to the lies of the White Leftists who have used them.
I know very well how domestic terrorists work whether they are black, white or brown groups.
We have 2 kids in Law Enforcement and one in Military Cyber Security and I learn first-hand from them of domestic terrorism, besides what I witnessed mysewf back in Oakland & Berkeley.
Our other son had his duffle bags packed for 3 months before the 2020 election in case he had to be deployed stateside if riots broke from Antifa & BLM because of a Trump victory.
And of course there WAS a Trump victory, but the election was 100% rigged,,,,,and the proof is here but you are either too stupid & too stubborn to look at the FACTS.
If you are foolish enough to parrot what JERRY NADLER said about “Antifa being just an ideology” then you are a major league FOOL.
Antifa is completely organized, members are recruited, they are paid, and they have access to technology and arms to carry out their wicked acts….and it is all financed from a higher source and we all know who that is.
BLM IS a Marxist organization and it has nothing to do with helping Blacks, instead it’s primary goal is to wreck chaos, cause racial division and defund the police, so law-enforcement becomes federalized……which is what dictatorships do.
Furthermore, I have not made one unsupported assertion….not once.
So take your lies and left-wing delusions to somebody else.
I have no time or patience for you anymore…….your comments have now become a waste of my time.
LikeLike
May 14, 2021 at 6:13 am
Derek, you and I both know that Hitler was not a true Christian.
Hitler committed genocide, God meted out justice. There is a big difference.
God protected Israel from her enemies who would have done the same to them unless God intervened.
You can disagree with God’s methods but you’ll have to take that up with Him. I’m not responsible for how God does what He does and why He does it. He never asked my opinion 🙂
If you want my opinion, I am fully OK with God wiping out the enemies of Israel in the old testament. Just like I am fully OK with the allies defeating the armies of Germany in WW2. How do you deal with a brutal enemy who wants to wipe you off the face of the earth ? You need to understand that back in the OT days of war, it was kill or be killed. It was a matter of survival. There was little or no chance for peaceful negotiations. It’s easy for us to sit here and judge those events thousands of years later not understanding the context of the time period those people were living in.
The last thing I’m going to do is blame God or accuse Him of doing something wrong. I know God is just and God is good. He has demonstrated that through the cross. The world you’re looking for is not here, it’s in the Kingdom of God.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Naz
LikeLike
May 14, 2021 at 2:40 pm
Naz, have you seen the trailer for “Kids Chasing Paradise” by The Clarion Project?
The minds of these poor kids have become so poisoned from a wicked religion who worships death.
Go back before Islam and in the Arab regions, the pagan mindset of the people were no different.
The children of Baal and all of the other pagan gods were trained in much the same way as Hamas trains their young.
Back then and still today, it is nearly impossible to change the minds of these kids who were and are still so satanically brainwashed & abused…..only a miracle can save these children from all of the hatred that has been instilled in their hearts, from birth.
This is why back in the Old Testament, God included the kids to be wiped out.
My own opinion is, all babies & little children are saved because of their innocence. And by God allowing the killing of the children of the enemies of Israel, they are safe with Him, because they would have no future on Earth if they grew to be violent as their culture taught them to be.
That’s the mercy of God for the little ones.
All traces of empathy, compassion and love for their fellow human beings are vanquished through the intense brainwashing of radical Islam.
This is why Hamas has no conscience when they fire rockets from school yards, knowing the Israelis will fire back, in which Palestinians kids are blown up. Life is expendable……kinda like how the atheist communist regimes treated millions & millions.
LikeLike
May 14, 2021 at 7:19 pm
Derek, I just want you to know that I am scrolling past your comments and not reading any of them and I’m deleting them just like Leo/Leona’s.
So if per-chance you are taking all this time to cut & paste out of your lengthy pile of misguided “come backs” please don’t do it on my account, because I’m not reading any of it.
But thanks anyway.
LikeLike
May 17, 2021 at 5:47 pm
“Derek, I just want you to know that I am scrolling past your comments and not reading any of them and I’m deleting them just like Leo/Leona’s.”
That is what is known as “willful ignorance,” and it’s precisely why you and Paul believe unsupported and demonstrably false claims. You seek out information that confirms your own beliefs–a behavior known as “confirmation bias”–which means your perception of the world is guaranteed to become skewed, biased and false.
Look at the few sources you’ve provided for your many claims on the various threads–sites like americanthinker.com and rumble.com. Your “evidence” is blogs and vlogs! These sources have no credibility because they have no standards for journalistic integrity. Their “reporters” don’t get fired or even admonished for presenting false information, and they don’t have fact checkers tracking down their claims.
But you believe their unreliable, hyper-partisan claims because they fit your beliefs. That approach to determining the truth is anathema to an informed mind. You’re interested only in voicing your opinions, and your refusal to even think through my arguments shows a lack of intellectual curiosity. That can only mean you will continue to live in a bubble and internalize false beliefs. This is the same kind of thinking that led to the January 6th insurrection, where many Qanon, white supremacist and other Trump supporters were shocked when their certainty of overthrowing the government and reinstating Trump evaporated. This is not how a democracy functions.
Thus, there is evidently little point in trying to engage you in rational conversation. Sad but true.
LikeLike
May 17, 2021 at 6:19 pm
Derek,
You think way too highly of yourself to label me “willfully ignorant” just because I do not care to engage with you and your comments.
Please let go of your arrogance….it’s very unattractive.
It is pointless to further engage with you because you will never convince me of your view regarding….
#1. The existence of The One True God who is Jesus Christ
#2. The FACT that there was Election Fraud in 2020
So give it up and please go lecture somebody else who wants to hear you.
LikeLike
June 1, 2021 at 4:49 pm
“Derek, you are either incredibly naïve or an incredible liar….or both…I think both, especially in regards to Antifa & BLM.”
On the contrary. I provided you with the fact checks against your claims. You present, well, nothing, no credible supportive evidence. All you have is assertions, and as the saying goes, assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
“I know the true agenda of the democrat party with their domestic terrorists called the KKK and their implementation of segregation which is now evolved into using Black people for their votes, keeping them on the plantation of welfare and robbing them of their dignity.”
I’ll bet you you read this on some right-wing conspiracy theory website, rather than ANY credible news source. I provided the fact checking, you didn’t.
“Our other son had his duffle bags packed for 3 months before the 2020 election in case he had to be deployed stateside if riots broke from Antifa & BLM because of a Trump victory.”
Ironically (for you, not for anyone paying attention to credible news sources), it turned out to be the right-wingers who not only rioted, but attempted to overthrow the legitimately elected government confirmation, attacked and killed our police (so much for blue lives matter…), and hunted for the vice president in order to hang him. That’s insurrection, which means traitors to this country.
And before you start in on the unreliable right-wing media claims that the insurrection was a left-wing false flag operation, I’m aware of only ONE person who was identified to have any connection (and a tenuous one at that) with antifa, many of the rioters were spotted at various previous Trump rallies and have a long history of right-wing posts on social media (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-capitol-mob-antifa-undercov/fact-check-men-who-stormed-capitol-identified-by-reuters-are-not-undercover-antifa-as-posts-claim-idUSKBN29E0QO), many were Proud Boys and other known white supremacists, and most obviously: Congress was confirming the election of Joe Biden, so why in the world would the left want to disrupt that process? How would that make any sense at all?
“And of course there WAS a Trump victory, but the election was 100% rigged,,,,,and the proof is here but you are either too stupid & too stubborn to look at the FACTS.”
LOL! Don’t you think credible facts would have been PRESENTED by now? Instead we have claim after claim…and NO EVIDENCE to support those claims. You’re being convinced by ASSERTION, not by evidence, otherwise you would PRESENT that evidence. But instead all there is are unsubstantiated claims. That’s how conspiracy theories work.
“If you are foolish enough to parrot what JERRY NADLER said about “Antifa being just an ideology” then you are a major league FOOL.”
Really? Can you name even ONE Antifa leader?
“Antifa is completely organized, members are recruited, they are paid, and they have access to technology and arms to carry out their wicked acts….and it is all financed from a higher source and we all know who that is.”
Again, meaningless assertion unless you can provide evidence from a credible news source.
“BLM IS a Marxist organization and it has nothing to do with helping Blacks, instead it’s primary goal is to wreck chaos, cause racial division and defund the police, so law-enforcement becomes federalized……which is what dictatorships do.”
Evidence? Oh, that’s right, you have none.
“Furthermore, I have not made one unsupported assertion….not once.”
Pretty much ALL your assertions are unsupported. Supported means you PROVIDE evidence from a reliable, low bias media source. As far as I can tell, you’ve NEVER done that. This is precisely what makes you a conspiracy theorist.
“I have no time or patience for you anymore…….your comments have now become a waste of my time.”
Yes, I’m sure it’s frustrating when someone challenges your baseless assertions. Oh, I don’t doubt that you BELIEVE your claims…but belief based on insufficient evidence is by definition irrational. If you’d follow up on the sources I’ve provided, you’d see that my claims are supported, while yours are not. It’s all about high reliability and low bias sources. Anything else is just noise, because if your claims were substantiated, they would quickly be reported on these sources.
LikeLike
June 9, 2021 at 3:34 pm
“Derek, you and I both know that Hitler was not a true Christian.”
No, Naz, I don’t know that. Moses believed he was doing God’s work by eliminating his own people. Hitler believed he was doing God’s work by eliminating his own people. If you question whether Hitler was God’s man, then you must question whether Moses was God’s man.
Who is to say what is a “true” Christian? I can name many people who believe they were “true” Christians by following God’s orders and lessons learned from the Bible. Here’s just a small sample:
• 1960s Father Lawrence Murphy molested 200 deaf boys, often claiming God had him do so as a form of confession.
• 1981 and onward, Army of God, Christian Identity, Lambs of Christ and other Christian Patriot movements committed a number of terrorist attacks, including attacking abortion clinics and doctors across the United States.
• 1985 Debra Lynn Gindorf killed her two-year-old daughter and three-month-old son, believing she and her babies would be reunited in heaven, where they would be safe and happy together for eternity.
• 1993 Michael F. Griffin shot and killed abortion provider Dr. David Gunn based on his Christian views.
• 1994 Reverend Paul Hill murdered an abortion doctor and expected to be rewarded for it in heaven.
• 1996 Eric Robert Rudolph carried out the Centennial Olympic Park bombing as well as attacks on an abortion clinic and a lesbian nightclub.
• 1998 Khoua Her strangled her six children, believing she would be reunited with them in the afterlife.
• 1998 Christopher Turgeon murdered a man, as ordered by God.
• 1999 Marilyn Lemak murdered her three children, perceiving herself as a loving mother tenderly taking her children to a happier existence.
• 2001 Andrea Yates believed her children to have “unrighteous standing before God,” and she killed them so they would not grow up and become sinners.
• 2002 Sherry Marie Delker murdered her daughter by running her down with her car outside a church. Her intent was to send her daughter to a “better place.”
• 2002 Brian Mitchell, who believed he was God’s servant, abducted 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart and used his religious belief to justify showing her pornography and giving her drugs and alcohol.
• 2004 Dena Schlosser killed her 10-month-old baby by slicing off her arms as an offering to God.
• 2005 Magdalena Lopez beat her two sons to death because she thought they’d be better off in heaven.
• 2009 Scott Roeder shot Dr. George Tiller in the head as he was in church.
• 2010 Ugandan Rev. Martin Ssempa, supported by American evangelical Christians, supported a bill to have homosexuals hanged.
• 2010 Nine “Hutaree” (Christian warriors) militia members were arrested for plotting to kill various police officers, whom they believe will support the Antichrist.
• 2015, Robert Doggart planned to attack a Muslim enclave with guns, Molotov cocktails and a machete.
• 2015 Evangelist Robert Lewis Dear shot 12 people, killing three of them, in front of an abortion clinic. He believed he was doing God’s work.
• 2015 Ivory Coast man chopped off the heads of at least 20 children because God told him to do it.
If you automatically assume God is good and trust the Bible, no matter what, then you can end up embracing evil without a second thought.
“Hitler committed genocide, God meted out justice. There is a big difference.”
A better comparison is Hitler and Moses. But who is to say God didn’t order Hitler to kill the Jews? God abused the Israelites repeatedly in the Bible, and he ordered Moses to kill his own people:
• Exodus 32:27-29 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
God wanted Moses to order the murders of thousands of Israelites. Who is to say that God didn’t want Hitler to order the murders of millions of Jews? Just because Hitler isn’t mentioned in the Bible (at least not yet)? There is good reason for the following quote:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. — Steven Weinberg
“God protected Israel from her enemies who would have done the same to them unless God intervened.”
6 million Jews died. How is that God protecting his people?
“You can disagree with God’s methods but you’ll have to take that up with Him. I’m not responsible for how God does what He does and why He does it. He never asked my opinion 🙂”
Fair enough! But if he wants my vote, he needs to explain how his actions are not atrocities.
“If you want my opinion, I am fully OK with God wiping out the enemies of Israel in the old testament.”
I don’t know why you would be okay with that. An all-powerful, good God would never have had to let it get to that point. He deliberately created the situations that he knew would lead to untold atrocities being committed, which would then lead him to commit further atrocities against those who committed atrocities, and then compound the problem by sending nearly everyone to burn in hell. That doesn’t sound like any form of justice to me; it sounds like bloodlust and cruelty.
“How do you deal with a brutal enemy who wants to wipe you off the face of the earth ? You need to understand that back in the OT days of war, it was kill or be killed. It was a matter of survival. There was little or no chance for peaceful negotiations. It’s easy for us to sit here and judge those events thousands of years later not understanding the context of the time period those people were living in.”
It’s easy to sit here and judge those events because God is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful, meaning he could have EASILY prevented things from spinning out of control. He could have prevented eventual killers from being born, he could have arranged for people be raised to be good, he could have changed the minds of those who would commit atrocities, etc. And yes, God did change people’s minds when it suited him. He even made people behave badly when they weren’t planning to do so:
• Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord’s hand THE KING’S HEART IS A STREAM OF WATER THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL WHO PLEASE HIM.
• Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I RAISED YOU UP FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
• Romans 11:7-8 What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
• Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I HAVE HARDENED HIS HEART AND THE HEARTS OF HIS OFFICIALS so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.”
• Exodus 12:35-36 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. THE LORD HAD MADE THE EGYPTIANS FAVORABLY DISPOSED TOWARD THE PEOPLE, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.
• Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD HAD MADE HIS SPIRIT STUBBORN AND HIS HEART OBSTINATE in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
• Joshua 11:20 FOR IT WAS THE LORD HIMSELF WHO HARDENED THEIR HEARTS to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally.
• Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT?
“The last thing I’m going to do is blame God or accuse Him of doing something wrong. I know God is just and God is good. He has demonstrated that through the cross.”
But HOW does that demonstrate God is good or just? Justice is getting what you deserve, but how does ANYONE deserve to be born inherently sinful for something somebody did thousands of years ago? How can it be just to mete out infinite punishment for finite crimes? How does God sacrificing himself to himself in order to save us from himself anything good? Why don’t Christians believe in accountability for one’s actions?
“Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.””
It also says people won’t be able to sin in heaven:
• Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful.
• Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse.
And since Christians claim that sin is the necessary consequence of free will (which isn’t even mentioned in the Bible), that would mean everyone will lose their free will in heaven (so what is the point of having ever had free will in the first place?). Furthermore, their memories of life on this Earth will be erased:
• Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.”
So what good is an eternity in heaven if you forget everything about your life on Earth? How can you remember your friends and family if the former things will not be remembered? (Well, maybe that’s the answer to how anyone can be happy in heaven when most people will have friends and family burning in hell…)
LikeLike