Many attempts have been made to ground morality outside of a personal God, but all fall miserably short. At best, non-theistic ethical systems offer a rationale, or principle by which one can justify a system of prescriptions and proscriptions, but in what do they ground the rationale? The guiding principle may provide for a consistent system of ethical thought, but just because a system is consistent does not mean it is true, or that anyone is obliged to adopt it. Offering a rationale for saying one ought to do X is very different from grounding that moral imperative itself.
The only way to ground a moral imperative is to anchor it in some transcendent source. Any system that is grounded on principles created by man cannot transcend man because it has no objective value. It is entirely subjective; a social convention; morality by the people, of the people, and for the people. Society could choose to adopt a totally different rationale that supports a totally different set of prescriptions and proscriptions without violating any moral truths, because non-theistic moral systems are not representations of moral reality. Indeed, there is no such thing as moral reality (moral anti-realism). In the end, non-theistic moral systems provide no ontological basis on which to hang objective moral rules, and thus offer no compelling reason to abide by the rules of the system.
Some atheists believe objective moral rules exist as part of the fabric of the universe (they are moral realists). These moral laws are said to exist as inexplicably as the laws of nature itself. If so, the grounding problem would be solved, because there would be an objective basis for moral prescriptions and proscriptions. But why think we are obliged to align our lives with these moral rules? Obligations are grounded in relationships, and relationships entail personal agents. If moral rules are not grounded in a transcendent moral being, it makes no sense to think we are obligated to follow them. They can be safely ignored without enduring consequence.
But what if we chose to follow them anyway? Would it matter? No. Our moral choices would be insignificant because the finality of the grave allows for no moral accountability. I will not be rewarded for having obeyed the natural moral laws, and you will not be punished for having ignored them. The outcome is the same. In the end, it becomes meaningless. A moral realism that is meaningless is no better than a moral anti-realism that is meaningless. Only theism can ground objective moral values, our duty to submit to those values, and supply us with a rational reason to fulfill our moral obligations.
I should make it clear that the question is not whether non-theists can recognize objective moral laws apart from belief in God, or even keep them apart from belief in God. They can, and do. The question is how they can make sense of that which they recognize, and make sense of that which they do. Apart from theism, I think the answer is negative.
January 25, 2010 at 12:57 am
[…] under Apologetics, Atheism, Moral Argument Leave a Comment Theists often offer the moral argument in support of God’s existence. While the argument can take many forms, the essence of the […]
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April 28, 2010 at 4:20 am
Just because you can not comprehend a morality based on the evolutionary need to cooperate to survive doesn’t mean it isn’t reality. Superstitions are not needed to feel a love for your fellow man, all that is needed is compassion.
A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
~ Albert Einstein
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April 28, 2010 at 10:25 am
Scott,
Who said anything about a lack of imagination? For something to be objective it must be mind-independent. If morality is just a way of behaving that helps us survive and evolve, then morals are mind-dependent. That makes them subjective, not objective. Indeed, on an evolutionary account, if man had evolved differently, or if the environment in which we involved had been different, we would have evolved a different set of moral values. Clearly, evolution cannot provide us with transcendent, objective moral values.
Jason
Jason
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May 30, 2010 at 6:36 am
Morals are based on the situation otherwise “Thou shall not kill” includes war and to be righteous you must abstain from it even when your country is invaded or attacked.
“Honor thy mother and father,” does that include the parents who use their children as prostitutes or cook meth with the children in the other room?
The world is not black and white. There are no absolutes.
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May 30, 2010 at 9:52 am
Scott,
I’m not sure if you are trying to say moral values are not objective, or simply that there are times that they do not apply. If you just mean the latter, I agree. But if you mean the former, or think that the latter implies the former, I disagree.
I agree that the situation determines which moral rule applies, but that does not make morality subjective. The moral values themselves are objective, and every person who finds themselves in the exact same situation is beholden to the exact same moral rule.
The examples you brought up merely show that moral principles can be superceded by higher moral principles. Why is it ok to break the command to honor your father and mother if they are asking you to prostitute your body? Because there is a higher moral law that says one should not have sex with others that are not your spouse. But that does not make the command to obey one’s parents subjective. It simply shows that there is a hierarchy of moral values. The situation merely tells us which applies.
For example, the NT tells us that we are to obey the government. And yet, when the governing authorities over Israel told Peter and John they could not preach the Gospel, they disobeyed. Why? Because they said “it is better to obey God than men.” In other words, the moral rule to obey the government still applies, but when the situation is such that it is in conflict with a higher moral rule, it is superceded. But when there is no conflict, the moral rule to obey the government applies, and it applies to everyone.
In fact, the only way one can recognize that a child does not have to obey her parents if they tell her to prostitute herself is because s/he recognizes that such moral values are objective, and some are more weighty than others.
Jason
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February 4, 2013 at 10:55 am
[…] Can Morality be Grounded Outside of God? […]
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October 1, 2014 at 7:34 am
[…] Can morality be grounded outside of God? […]
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March 9, 2015 at 3:37 pm
[…] Can Morality be Grounded Outside of God? […]
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April 3, 2015 at 2:16 pm
[…] God as the best explanation for the existence of objective moral values elsewhere (here, here, and here), I will limit my thoughts to why moral Platonism fails as an adequate moral theory. Here are […]
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December 6, 2015 at 11:29 am
I cannot comprehend why a “higher order” is required to be acknowledged for morality. Just distill it down to the basics. Religion presents commandments with the consequence of violation being the wrath of God (in the worst case, you are banished to hell for eternity). I doubt most religious followers are perpetually dwelling on the concern of suffering retribution from God if they aren’t living a precisely moral life. I know from discussing this with some people that they feel God is pleased by their doing the right thing, striving to be moralistic. Without God, is there no incentive?
I posit that people can look upon being moralistic as contributing to the good of humanity. That doing good deeds won’t result in immediate payback, but instead contribute to the “pool” of human benefit (paying it forward) that makes a positive difference for the many in the long run. Does that morality require a religious text to be ingrained? No. It requires instructors, such as parents, guardians, and academic teachers. They are the ones who convey the morality, regardless of the source being God or simply good sense.
Admittedly, this is subjective. The fervently religious will say no, you need the structure of religion to convey morality, otherwise there’s no inherent obligation to follow. The power of God is required. Perhaps for some… but not for all. And yes, prior to the present age of enlightenment I would have to agree. But given what we know today, this is not a requirement.
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December 31, 2015 at 4:34 pm
Cytherian, you are missing the argument. The argument is not that we need God to motivate people to be moral, but that God’s existence is necessary for anything to be moral in the first place. If there is no transcendent grounding for what we call morality, then moral behaviors are subjective rather than objective. They are just socio-cultural preferences or ways of acting that allow us to achieve certain results that we deem valuable. If there is no God, people may choose not to rape women because they believe it is best for society if they don’t rape them, but that’s not to say that if someone did rape a woman they would be doing anything actually wrong. At best they would simply be violating the cultural mores, similar to wearing white socks with a black tuxedo. We may not like it when someone violates our cultural norms, but if God does not exist we can’t say they have done anything truly wrong in a moral sense. Only the existence of God can actually make rape wrong. Without such a transcendent source, we’re just left with human preferences. Atheistic systems of morality could provide good motivations to keep the rules, but they cannot make it actually wrong in an objective sense to break the rules (or actually good to keep them).
Jason
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January 1, 2016 at 8:43 am
Morality is a matter of a combination of geography, culture and religon; subjective adherence or not. Where religious decrees prevail man made Gods were used to justify “God’s” Laws.
Legislators make the laws, Police enforce the police-y, Judges make the decisions, Moses began the system as religious tradition reveals, Moses’ Father in law, Jethro, started the Judiciary, detainment was the penalty, death for the most serious penalty for subjective disregard for civil peace and “order” against their invisible God’s decrees and instructions.
Jethro said to Moses: this thing is too much for you; you are not able to perform it by yourself.20 And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do. 21 Moreover you shall select from all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers
24 So Moses heeded the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. 26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves.
The laws came through man but were claimed to be from God and of course God “concept” had to remain invisible for the captivating belief to prevail. Knowledge that it was the “Oracle” ( a man ) speaking on behalf of God may have wreaked chaos among the people.
Religious theologians (people who are experts in the unknowable) and philosophers have been debating the invisible God, using terms such as “morality” and “grounded in” for thousands of years and just cannot give up argument for the concept of belief to continue to prevail.
But religion has been slowly dying since the days of mythology consciousness, when people began awakening from belief as they transited to their common, intuitive sense.
And we sang hallelujah for evolving intellect that took us out of the ignorant ditches of stupefaction.
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January 2, 2016 at 11:00 am
God was conceived, created and made in the Image and Likeness of man which explains why God is full of war and evil deeds according to the scriptures. The patterns of God follow the likenesses of man in both good and evil and includes the longing for virtues of goodness and righteousness that men hold and demonstrate on occasion.
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January 2, 2016 at 11:06 am
This is also the full explanation for the Problem of Evil which is no problem at all once you understand that God was the created not the creator. It does not however, account for natural disasters: quakes, floods, tsunamis that is the Laws of matter and energy and universal forces in operation.
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November 17, 2016 at 8:01 am
If God was not the creator, who or what was?
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May 7, 2018 at 7:09 pm
There are no objective moral values outside of the human condition which nature produced.
“Obligations are grounded in relationships, and relationships entail personal agents. If moral rules are not grounded in a transcendent moral being, it makes no sense to think we are obligated to follow them. They can be safely ignored without enduring consequence.”
As such we are not obligated to follow – thta’s many people don’t. We do so for very practical reasons – biological and social reasons. This is why morality is not objective – out there – it is within the sphere of human relationships – their actions and consequences. Moral values such as rape and murder being part of God’s ontology does not make much sense – why does he need such values? Is he potentially a rapist or a murderer of other gods?
Last I checked, if God requires his creatures to be duty bound to his moral law – obligated – then why, when it is broken (ignored) does he not render justice? He is the one who by such standards is duty bound to render justice when his law is broken but as you noted justice is postponed into the future – how convenient. And frankly all the religious mumbo-jumbo you do to get yourself out of this fact is itself unjustified and simply asserted.
If god exist then objective moral values exist – right. Well demonstrate that he exists or else you have no foundation for saying that they do or that your values have any authority outside of mere force, consensus based upon reason or logic, or a combination of the two.
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May 30, 2018 at 2:29 pm
Maximus writes:
Then, as I remarked on another thread, one man’s atrocity is another man’s progress. Rape and genocide merely break our social convention; they have nothing to do with right or wrong in any objective sense. Since Iran’s culture says it’s okay to throw gays off buildings and stone them to death if they survive, that’s just the way they do things, right?
Ok, so your complaint is that God doesn’t do it quickly enough for you, and that’s sufficient ground to question objective morals. That’s some pretty sloppy logic.
Frankly, your refusal to engage a person’s argument is itself unjustified and your hand-waiving dismissal is simply asserted. You’re the one who asked why God doesn’t render justice, and theists answer that He will. The fact that it doesn’t happen on your timetable has no bearing on the validity of the argument.
It doesn’t make much sense because you obviously don’t understand the argument.
Since a good is something desired for what it is, the basic premise is that something is good to the degree to which it actualizes its essence. For example, a squirrel with a tail is better than a squirrel without one because it actualizes its “squirrel essence” to a greater degree. Hence, the more something actualizes its nature, the more actual reality it is and the more good it is considered to be. This is the ancient idea of perfection—the actualization of essence. So, there is a necessary connection between the degree of reality in X and the degree of goodness in X. That is also why there is the idea that everything that exists must have some goodness, simply by virtue of the fact that it exists, and since God is Pure Actuality, He is infinitely Good by virtue of His essence. No aspect of His existence is dependent on anything to make Him what He is which makes Him the standard of all goodness. Since it is impossible for Him to suffer any diminution of being, He cannot be evil in any sense of the word.
We thus see that evil is privation of being, because goodness is associated with actual being, and since the privation of goodness is evil, then evil must be the privation of actual being. It is the prevention of something to actualize its nature or to take away what has been actualized and thus for it to fall short of its full potential.So, just laws aim to preserve the well-being of every individual regardless of culture or geography and are thus grounded objectively.
Now, you may certainly disagree with all of this, but these arguments have been around for a very, VERY long time. Your ignorance of them is telling on your lack of integrity. It’s one thing to ask about something you don’t understand. It’s quite another to denigrate it in your ignorance. To sneer at something you don’t understand is the height of arrogance. If you understood the argument, you would engage it rationally. You thus demonstrate yourself to be irrational and unworthy of respect.
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May 30, 2018 at 4:51 pm
MAXIMUS is correct:
Oh sure, Christian can assert “God’ll punish them” Problem is nobody will ever know about it: it’s just another baboon belief. Believers can assert anything they can’t prove and believe assertion alone validates the belief. But it doesn’t. And then they criticize the unbelievers being ignorant of the argument. There is no argument; your talk is baboonish.
There is no such thing as objective morality and you don’t have to talk about Muslims throwing gays off building just go back a few hundred years and talk about your Christian Ancestry and objective morality there wasn’t any then and there aren’t any now.
Countless thousands of people whose only crime was to reject Christianity were judicially killed in Europe over the course of several hundred years. They owed their untimely deaths to men like Pope Gregory IX who explicitly authorised the killing of witches in the thirteenth century. In Germany a priest called Conrad discovered that torture could elicit the most astonishing confessions. The more he tortured people the more astonishing the confessions they were prepared to make. They could be induced to implicate others, and when in turn the people who had been implicated were tortured they confessed as well. The obvious fact that almost anyone can be induced to confess to almost anything under torture does not seem to have impinged upon Conrad’s Godly mind. His only explanation was that witchcraft was rampant, and Christendom was in danger.
Pope Innocent VIII perceived the threat. His ‘Witches Bull’ Summis desiderantes affectibus of 5th December1484 called for the utmost severity against witches.
Malleus Maleficarum is an inquisitors’ handbook, giving practical instructions for the discovery, examination, torture, trial and execution of witches. It was furnished to Inquisitors and judges throughout Western Christendom, from its publication in 1486. It was one of the earliest books to be printed, and had been reprinted fourteen times already by 1520.
If a squirrel tail is better than no squirrel tail then why don’t rats have squirrel tails. What a ridiculous argument in support of goodness, a squirrel’s tail?
Yeah let’s go back to the ancient ideas of perfection; I’m glad we are out of the hellhole of the ancients. And I’ll be glad when the hellhole of the ancients you still cling to are supplanted, better sooner than later.
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May 31, 2018 at 9:35 am
Dr. William Lane Craig supports Theosophical Ruminator in the followirng syllogism:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.
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May 31, 2018 at 11:51 am
inthebeginningiam:
Dr. William Lane Craig and Ruminator are most probably wrong, not so much as to presume that objective moral vales exist, as much as that, objective moral value are attributed by the created concept of man’s god.
However there is no evidence whatever that there are objective moral values at play in the animal kingdom, instinctual drives notwithstanding. The closest evidence that moral values exist is the demonstration thereof by man himself thus making the reasonable observation that moral values are subjective in nature.
Only rarely do we see events in the animal kingdom where one species seem to help another species in a time of imminent peril; a gorilla scooping out a flailing bird unable to scale the embankment and surely on the way to exhaustion and drowning is one example; a baboon scares off a cheetah that has just downed an antelope…as the cheetah runs away from a fiercely attacking baboon the antelope regains its breath and strength and escapes back into the herd.
Dr. Craig’s Sillygism:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
A presumptive assertion that rules out every other aspect of the cosmic entirety except for a created concept entity called God. The presumption, at best, allows only for the remotest of possibilities supported only by the premise that is, more likely than not, false and itself based on as much a fantasy myth as the created entity concept.
Sillygism 2:
Objective moral values and duties do exist.
This sillygism has no basis in fact and alludes only to the created concept entity fantasy by implying the premise and the conclusion to be mutually inclusive. Objective moral values may indeed exist and if so may indeed exist by means other than the created concept god. And indeed, which god of the 45,000 or more created gods would be the instigator be, assuming (again of course) that there ever was an objective moral value system, it would have been introduced rather than always present, both of which is as far fetched as the paranormal activity the author equally must support.
The farcical analysis reveals that the Sillygisms reverse engineering reads thusly:
1. If God exists, objective moral values and duties exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.
Sillygism 1. based on assumption by the word evidenced by the word “if”.
Sillygism 2. based on assumption from Sillygism 1. evidenced by the word “if”.
Sillygism 3. conclusion is an assumption based on 1, & 2. Sillygism presumptives both utilizing the word “if”, straining for the audience to accept a non knowledge, belief system of reasoning
Conclusion. This Sillygism is based enitrely on wishful belief devoid of any reasoning and therefore is without merit.
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May 31, 2018 at 12:38 pm
inthebeginningiam:
As you can see from Posts 18 & 20, Leo is disconnected from reality. He’s a well-known troll on this site. He either pretends to understand what he doesn’t or he simply dismisses what he doesn’t understand because he either can’t or won’t take the time to digest it.
Anyway, though Craig’s syllogism is both valid and sound, his theistic personalism undermines the conclusion he seeks to draw.
I have a lot of respect for Craig, but his rejection of Thomism has led him to describe God in, we shall say charitably, strange ways (likening God to Cerberus) in order to defend the Trinity.
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May 31, 2018 at 2:35 pm
To whom it may concern:
Scalia agrees with himself and is unanimous in that; nobody is above his criticism. If you do not agree with him you are in for a denigratory
tongue-lashing…ha ha ha ha.
Scalia suffers from a mental disorder called Misery and just can’t bring himself around to a logic, reason state of knowledge; he therefore, rants the day away fantasizing a belief system for self aggrandizment, honing his crooked tongue for those who would dare offer a view different from his self deception.
Honing away in his supreme state of misery.
His full User ID handle is: Scalia Thomas Alito Roberts; soon his handle will appear as an acronym, “S*T*A*R”, brightest in the heavens.
Way to go Scalia……you get ’em Star.
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May 31, 2018 at 5:14 pm
Scalia: I understand. I should have simply used the syllogism without mentioning Craig.
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May 31, 2018 at 6:14 pm
inthebeginingiam:
Oh, I don’t have issues with citing Craig. He’s certainly been an effective force in the apologetic arena, and I’ve cited him on occasion. Bro. Jason is a big fan of his and often repeats his arguments. I just think that too many Apostolics swallow his theology without adequate caution.
By the way, I checked out your site. You’re a good writer!
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May 31, 2018 at 6:54 pm
Scalia: Thank You! My paper: In the Begnning Was the Word took a very long time to put the puzzle pieces together.
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May 31, 2018 at 8:55 pm
The First Christian.
All the world still believes in the authorship of the “Holy Spirit” or is at least still affected by this belief: when one opens the Bible one does so for “edification.”…
That it also tells the story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the apostle Paul–who knows this , except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity…
That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans–that was due to this one man, a very tortured, very pitiful, very unpleasant man, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea–or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never-resting question: what about the Jewish law? and particularly the fulfillment of this law?
In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive – this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded in creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness.
(Most notably the sin of sexuality, the necessary precursor of all humanity. Very life itself became the sin of every human creature conceived, the epitome of evil)
Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honor; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed towards them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments.
And now he found that–hot-headed, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was– he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the law, and he had to yield to this thorn.
Is it really his “carnal nature” that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove itself unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistable charm? But at that time he did not yet have this way out. He had much on his conscience – he hints at hostility, murder, magic, idolatry, lewdness, drunkenness, and pleasure in dissolute carousing – and… moments came when he said to himself:”It is all in vain; the torture of the unfulfilled law cannot be overcome.”… The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it! how he searched for some means to annihilate it–not to fulfill it any more himself!
And finally the saving thought struck him,… “It is unreasonable to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way out; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law!”… Until then the ignominious death had seemed to him the chief argument against the Messianic claim of which the new doctrine spoke: but what if it were necessary to get rid of the law?
The tremendous consequences of this idea, of this solution of the riddle, spin before his eyes; at one stroke he becomes the happiest man; the destiny of the Jews–no, of all men–seems to him to be tied to this idea, to this second of its sudden illumination; he has the thought of thoughts, the key of keys, the light of lights; it is around him that all history must revolve henceforth. For he is from now on the teacher of the annihilation of the law…
This is the first Christian, the inventor of Christianity. Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.
from Nietzsche’s Daybreak, s.68, Walter Kaufmann transl.
And so Paul concocted the story about the vision of Jesus and etc etc etc….in order to satisfy his desire to infiltrate the Jesus following and rise to the pinnacle in a hierarchy he himself conceived and marketed to the few, rising to the top of the throne he created to become the Christians’ rack upon which to hang their coats as they left their Messiah Jesus to fend for himself as they began to extol, quote and follow the teachings of Paul as the champion of the virtues of christianity, “in Jesus name”…based not on the revolutionary Jesus, but on the philosophy of Paul to explain away his way.
And here we see over and over and over again, Christians declaring Paul’s interpretation about Jesus and his life, although Paul never personally met Jesus, as far as anybody knows, except perhaps in the hidden recesses of the shadows looking on as Jesus was crucified and of course the fabricated story of the “vision” to hold spellbound the supernatural flock, left without a shepherd, without the revolutionary shepherd of whom the worse persecutor was wretched Paul and now the persecutor would champion the cause. The die was cast to ensnare those who wanted to expound the basic foundation of understanding according to Paul, The Proud Pharisee of Tarsus.
Until the vision lighted Paul’s mind and swooned him to his own idea that the law was supplanted and finally, Paul’s tortured life began to subside; his focus shifted and he played the part magnificently in the ruse about the “encounter” on the Road to Damascus. And so Christianity continues perpetuating the hoaxes on which it was built by the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the revolutionary and extraordinary man Jesus Christ, not Paul I’m sorry to discourage you, Jesus Christ!
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June 1, 2018 at 10:21 am
inthebeginningiam:
I’m reading your paperIn the Beginning was the Word. Again, I like your writing style. Since the subject matter is not the topic of this thread, I’ll comment under Jason’s Credo thread. I’ve linked it here. It may also be accessed via the tab at the top of this page.
All the best.
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June 1, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Scalia: Thanks again! I’m trying to circulate my paper as far and wide as possible.
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June 1, 2018 at 1:50 pm
Just a heads-up: I disagree with some of your conclusions.
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June 1, 2018 at 2:35 pm
inthebeginningiam:
Like I said, “S*T*A*R ” agrees with himself and is unanimous in that; nobody is above his criticism. If you do not agree with him you are in for a denigratory
tongue-lashing…ha ha ha ha.”
He is preparing you for the fall; he knows everything……….good luck.
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June 4, 2018 at 11:28 am
inthebeginningiam:
Morality is grounded in subjectivity and if ever there was a man who walked this earth who knew the truth about a man’s humanity and that relationship that must govern that man’s humanity, with God, Evolution, Nature (GEN) and GEN with him, that man was Jesus Christ. He just happened to understand his humanity as a product of GEN who engineered man and who deliberately insisted of his own free volition, something he need never ever have done, being never ever less than a product of GEN came into this world to behave as though he were never ever more than that product, man. As opposed of course to man, who being never ever more than that product, man, struts across this planet and behaves as though he were never ever less than GEN. That’s the essential difference. Jesus Christ never ever less than a GEN product behaved as though he were never ever more than man; man never ever more than man behaves as though he was never ever less than GEN.
You have a big decision to make and is not a small matter. So let me help before you get to the big choice:
How could one man, who lived all his life within a small area of the Middle East, have achieved such an encyclopedic knowledge of mankind? The answer of course is by looking inside himself. In his own head and heart he found every possible trait of character and twist of emotion. His dialogue rings true because Jesus knew that he himself was Everyman. He had only to consult his own soul to imagine how any character would react in a given situation because he—-as a human being—-a product of GEN…. was also a microcosm of the whole human race. Since each of us is a human being, each possesses within himself the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all. This is not just idle philosophizing, it’s a fact of key importance to your own personal life and to your understanding of Jesus as the Son of Man.
PICK YOUR POISON: Scalia the critic; it’s his way(and Paul’s) or the highway vs Jesuspeake the Advocate, it’s Jesus way(not Paul’s) or the highway.
Luke tells us that Jesus was “……..raised from the dead………”; in other words, raised from the place of the dead. You see, if you cannot read beyond the literal text, you have limited understanding, If you have no idea how authors write except your own writing of course, your limited perception is skewed only to your own pot of stew.
Christians have been living in a Trojan horse world manned by a Pharisee infiltrator savior of “the Faith”………..a Faith of their own devise that Jesus life and message tried to revolutionize. Paul said “……faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…….”. What a ludicrous statement that is! Faith(optimistic belief) may inspire you to seek, look for and perhaps eventually find, knowledge, as it did for Jonas Salk in the pursuit of a polio vaccine but belief is never evidence; if faith was the evidence then knowledge could not supplant it but knowledge supplants belief every single time; once you have knowledge belief vanishes; in fact, belief is already supplanted by something Jesus parabled about, he called “persistence”. It wasn’t faith or belief that rewarded the widow her justice, it was persistence, that’s what Jesus said, not Paul.
It is stunning how pseudo Christians accept ancient moronic teachings. The Ancients were “one bunch” in an “evil Cliche”. Paul was a murderer, grew up a murderer, practiced murder, applauded murder persecuted the followers of Jesus and more likely than not acquiesced in the plot for Jesus’s crucifixion, yet every Christian quotes Paul on the big questions instead of Jesus, as if Paul were the epitome and philosopher-in-chief of Jesus’s revolutionary message. What’s that all about?
It was Paul who acquiesced in the stoning death of Stephen and infiltrated the small group of followers to lead them back into the Pharisaical fold from which Jesus was trying to save them. And now with the news that Jesus escaped the tomb and was seen alive, Paul’s “set-in-stone” resurrection doctrine was all the more furiously promulgated to gain the confidence of the small band of men without a shepherd.
If Christians cannot read the bible without supernatural eyes and with secular scrutiny like Jesus did, they are not followers of Jesus Christ and they may just as well read ‘Three Blind Mice’ for all the good their interpretaton does anybody especially themselves.
Writing about the “Father” of Jesus through the eyes of Paul is useless; reviewing the writing based on the philosophy through the eyes of Paul is worse than merely useless.
Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So I ask, how can you understand the Father without understanding Jesus, the son?
Jesus also said,
“Don’t bicker among yourselves over me. You’re not in charge here. The Father who sent me is in charge. He draws people to me—that’s the only way you’ll ever come. Only then do I do my work, putting people together, setting them on their feet, ready for the End. This is what the prophets meant when they wrote, ‘And then they will all be personally taught by God.’ Anyone who has spent any time at all listening to the Father, really listening and therefore learning, comes to me to be taught personally—to see it with his own eyes, hear it with his own ears, from me, since I have it firsthand from the Father. No one has seen the Father except the One who has his Being alongside the Father—and you can see me.”
Paul says: listen to me “I’d rather speak five words you can understand rather than thousands of words in Scalia-speak”.
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June 12, 2019 at 4:25 pm
[…] Ruminator, 2009. Can Morality be Grounded Outside of God? [Online] Available at: https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/can-morality-be-grounded-outside-of-god/ [Accessed 17 October […]
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