Matthew reports a guard being stationed outside of Jesus’ tomb (Mt 27:62-66; 28:4,11-15). While it is often assumed that the guard was a Roman guard, the text does not say this. While it may have been a Roman guard, it is also possible that it was a Jewish guard seeing that the temple in Jerusalem employed its own guards. Which was it?
Reasons to think the guard was a Jewish temple guard:
- The guards return to the chief priests rather than to Pilate or a Roman officer
- It is unlikely that Roman guards would agree to spread a story for which they could be executed (execution was the punishment for Roman soldiers who fell asleep on watch).
- While the mention of the governor in Mt 28:14 may indicate this is a Roman guard, if it was a Roman guard then it is difficult to see how the Jewish leadership could have done anything to keep the governor for killing his own soldiers. What influence would they have in Roman military affairs?
Reasons to think the guard was a Roman guard:
- Why would the Jews make a request to Pilate to secure the tomb if they did not need his soldiers to do so?
- The word used by Pilate, koustodia, is a word commonly used to refer to Roman soldiers
- Why would the Jewish leaders need to soothe over the governor if they weren’t his soldiers?[1]
Personally, I don’t find the reasons for thinking the guard to be Roman entirely persuasive. While koustodia could refer to Roman soldiers, it could refer to any guard, Roman or Jewish. Indeed, if these were Pilate’s soldiers, they would have secured the tomb and put on the Roman seal, not the Jews (Mt 27:65 – Pilate tells the Jewish leaders to “Go, make it as secure as you know how). It seems, then, that the Jews were not requesting Pilate’s soldiers, but rather his permission to set up their own guard at the tomb (just as Joseph needed permission from Pilate to obtain and bury the body of Jesus—Mt 27:57-58). With Pilate’s permission, they had the backing of Rome for their actions.
If the guard was Jewish, however, why would the Jews be concerned about soothing over the governor if word of the event reached his ears? As anyone in leadership understands, when something goes wrong, it is always the leader’s fault even if it wasn’t the leader’s fault. Pilate was ultimately responsible for what happened in his province. The Jews went to Pilate seeking permission to guard Jesus’ tomb so as to prevent further trouble relating to Jesus. If their failure to keep the tomb secure led to public unrest, Pilate would ultimately be held responsible by Rome. While the guard did not consist of Roman soldiers, they were Pilate’s subjects nonetheless, and could easily become the object of his wrath if it were not for the intervention of the Jewish leaders to appease him. It is reasonable, then, for the Jews to be concerned about Pilate’s reaction if he were to hear about the “tomb theft.”
What do you think? Do you know of additional reasons to support either conclusion? Have you come to a different conclusion? If so, why?
[1]See William Lane Craig, “The Guard at the Tomb”; available from http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/guard.html; Internet; accessed 27 February 2005.
December 17, 2011 at 6:32 pm
I remembered reading this article, but I never really pondered it much until now. I started working on a Sunday school lesson, and our motif for our lessons has been caves. For our last lesson, I was going to use the story of how Jesus was buried in a tomb (a man-made cave), and rose again. I was going to mention the guards when I remembered this article, which sparked an intrigue to search this matter out.
I believe the guards to be Jewish for one simple clue offered by the text, and for the reasons you have mentioned.
Matthew 27:63-66 ESV and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first.” 65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.
You see, I get the feeling, from Pilate’s response, that he believed Jesus to be who He said He was. Granted, it may have been a manner of speech to grant the priests and Pharisees permission to use his soldiers, but he said, “You have a guard of soldiers” as if they already had their soldiers. It almost seems as if Pilate is telling them to use their own soldiers because he has washed his hands of the matter, wanting nothing else to do with the death of Christ. I looked at Robinson’s Morphological Analysis Codes, and the tense of the word “have” is present and active in the Greek. It seems most likely to me that the guards were Jewish, not Roman.
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May 9, 2012 at 7:06 am
“God’s Word” version has this: Mat 27:65 Pilate told them, “You have the soldiers you want for guard duty. Go and make the tomb as secure as you know how.”
Mat 27:66 So they went to secure the tomb. They placed a seal on the stone and posted the soldiers on guard duty.
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October 28, 2012 at 7:10 pm
I am inclined to think the guard were Roman. My guess is that there was at least a “contubernium” of eight Roman soldiers assigned to this detail to handle the four, three-hour watches of the night–likely more. There were known to be at least 11 disciples of Christ in the city, plus quite a number of sympathizers. Probably the Sanhedrin were not given an entire century of 80 Roman professionals, though–that would seem to be overkill. A smaller number of Romans, acting in concert as they had been trained to do, could handle a significantly larger number of frenzied “rabble,” as other military engagements had repeatedly demonstrated. The rotation may have involved several contubernia, since it needed to cover a watch schedule possibly spanning several days until the Feast was over– maybe 32-40 in the rotation? With eight watches in a 24-hour period, that would leave 4-5 soldiers awake & on guard at any one time. That might have been considered enough, given the level of threat (the disciples were pretty disheartened by what had just happened).
The tone of Pilate’s permission to “make [the tomb] as secure as you can” suggests two things to me: 1) he was now thoroughly disgusted with these envious, scheming murderers; 2) he was convinced enough about who Jesus may have been, from his own interviews with him, from his wife’s unsettling dream & warning, and from subsequent phenomena connected with the execution, that he doubted that anyone could actually keep Jesus in the tomb. Permission to use some of the world’s best soldiers to attempt it may have afforded him a moment of wry humor. He certainly was smarting from the political corner they had put him in during the drama of the trial & sentencing.
If they had simply used the Temple guard, their deployment at a Jewish tomb would have been under their own purview. As officials of an occupied province, they needed Roman permission to execute the death penalty upon Jesus. They didn’t need it to set their own employees over a Jewish tomb. Also, when things went awry–meaning the terrifying angelic appearance & the moving of the massive entrance stone, revealing that Jesus had, in fact, risen & left his collapsed grave clothes behind–there was no reason to offer a bribe to their own Temple guard to spread a lie about it: all they had to do was to threaten them if they did not, which would certainly have been consistent with the behavior & attitudes they displayed both before & after this incident.
They could not, however, threaten members of the Roman garrison “graciously” (sardonically) loaned them by Pilate: bribery & an asserted protection from Roman punishment for allegedly falling asleep on duty were the only options available to them. Also–although the issue had become something of a political “hot potato”–Pilate would not have threatened the High Priest’s Temple police with punishment for bungling their guard duty at the tomb–simply chalked it up (probably with a bit of smug satisfaction) to Jewish unprofessionalism. The bribe money & promise of immunity “if Pilate heard the [idiotic] story about Roman professionals sleeping through the snatching of the body they had been ordered to prevent” both, in my opinion, clinch the argument that the guard were Roman legionaries, because Pilate certainly did possess the authority to flog or even execute his own soldiers for improperly executing their guard duties without exciting any criticism from the authorities above him in Rome.
The marvel is how Matthew–a follower of Jesus–found out about this secret, high-level “crisis” meeting between the powerful Jewish religious leaders–who were clearly hostile to the budding Christian movement– & the confounded Roman guards. When I think about who was apparently present at that meeting immediately after the incident at the tomb, I wonder who became a Christian & “leaked” this sensitive information to Matthew. Was it one of the Jewish “elders” who was present? One of the soldiers? Or did one of the religious leaders tell his wife about it at home with a slave present; and since slaves were often ignored as though they were a piece of furniture, did the slave who overheard the story of this remarkable incident & the subsequent “cover-up” meeting become a Christian, & later share it with Matthew before he compiled & promulgated his gospel?
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April 12, 2014 at 3:28 pm
[…] https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/jewish-or-roman-guard/ […]
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October 25, 2014 at 8:23 pm
Bible students should know very well of the background of Jesus Time. I strongly believe that temple gurd is the one who gurd the tomb. However it is necessary to report the great things God to High priest and the chief priests of Israel. It is because Jesus even healed people like lepor and he said go and she’s yourself to the high priest.
A temple gurd is not a non Jew and they are Jewish and the Gospel must be preached first to Jew.
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October 25, 2014 at 8:26 pm
October 25, 2014 at 8:23 pm
Bible students should know very well of the background of Jesus Time. I strongly believe that temple gurd is the one who gurd the tomb. However it is necessary to report the great things God to High priest and the chief priests of Israel. It is because Jesus even healed people like lepor and he said go and she’s yourself to the high priest.
A temple gurd is not a non Jew and they are Jewish and the Gospel must be preached first to Jew. Jesus was arrested by temple police and Gurded the tomb by the temple gurd or troop. Only pilot given permission and it was necessary
Only Roman soldiers excut the crusifiction
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February 3, 2016 at 8:14 pm
Roman guard! Only by seeking the help of the Jewish authorities could the guard avoid execution for dereliction of duty, the tomb was empty! The Jewish leaders needed an explanation for the absence of the body, one hand washed the other! To allow all the events to take place, the Crucifixion had to take place on Wednesday, the eve of a High Sabbath. Jewish days went from Sundown to Sundown, not Midnight to Midnight, very confusing. Jesus was in the tomb sundown Wednesday to sundown Saturday, 3, 24 hr days!
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March 24, 2016 at 2:29 am
[…] Jewish or Roman Guard? […]
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June 26, 2017 at 7:53 am
Ian Harley:
“Jesus was in the tomb sundown Wednesday to sundown Saturday, 3, 24 hr days!”
To save arguments over what day the crucifixion took place, regardless of what day it was, M T W TH F SA SU what we can say for sure…..Jesus was in the tomb on day one the “First Day”, that is all one can assume accurately. The second thing we can know is that on the “Third day” Jesus appeared to Mary who thought Jesus was the gardener.
When Jesus was removed from the tomb (moved; e.g., “raised from the place of the dead”), according to my theory, that would have been the “First Day” regardless if anybody arguments for the actual day as M T W TH F SA SU, it was nevertheless, the “First Day”.
The only two people who went into the tomb to “prepare” the body, under pretense, to pack the body with sweet smelling spices in order to “Fabreeze and mitigate” the odors of decomposition and revive him, was who? Why none other than his two secret disciples, the only ones in the tomb at the end, who were working with Jesus throughout his campaign, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea.
And who had such a position of influence to actually go in to talk to Pilate requesting the body of Jesus?….why it was, Joseph of Arimathea. And who, of all people, was the owner of the tomb into which Jesus was placed and who had hewn the tomb out over two years; and, to whom did the tomb belong?? If you said Joseph of Arimathea you’d be right. And, can you then imagine that when Joseph and Nicodemus entered the tomb “……bringing a mixture of about 75 pounds of myrrh and aloes. … he brought with him spices of myrrh for Yeshua and of aloes about 100 pounds. … a mixture of myrrh and aloes, in weight about seventy or eighty pounds……” that perhaps, just maybe, hidden within the fragrances was medicine and bandages for the wounds to help the healing process take place immediately so that by the “Third Day”, Jesus having survived the trauma of the crucifixion, healed sufficiently to disguise himself and appear to Mary who did not recognize him at once? But when Mary heard Jesus’s voice, she recognized Jesus: …..”My Lord” ….but Jesus cautioned her not to “cling” to him (for he was still healing and others may see the embrace and become suspicious and investigate)?
If you are a believer, on the church dogma drug of Absolute Certainty, you may claim “Blasphemy!”
If you are a person of common sense you will find that this scenario is not at all unreasonable to assume just as you must assume what you believe that the eve of the High Sabbath was on a Wednesday and that Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days X 24hrs and somehow supernaturally or like a Star Trek Transporter Jesus was beamed out of the tomb as the Tomb Stone rolled away on it’s own without the use of the laws of gravity.
I rest my case of common sense logic for those who can receive it and say along with me and a few others……. Amen!
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August 10, 2018 at 11:11 am
Just stumbled on this. My opinion: The “guard the tomb” episode is Matthew’s imagination at work. Matthew likes to insert “drama” to accentuate his narration, and he adds it wherever he can. None of the other evangelists even hint at such as this episode, and, given that Matthew spends quite a bit of time on it, one would think it’s a detail that wouldn’t escape the circulating “death and resurrection” traditions. Consider this Matthew’s attempt to underscore the theology of Jesus’ resurrection, and don’t try to shoehorn it into “history.”
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August 10, 2018 at 2:24 pm
Joe, your underlying principle seems to be that if a detail isn’t mentioned in more than one gospel, it must not be historical. That’s not a good principle, and would throw out a lot of the information in the gospels. Each author is choosing what to focus on, among many things that they could have mentioned. It’s not surprising that some mention something the others don’t, particularly given that each author had his own focus.
Matthew’s information evidences a back and forth between Christians and Jews. The Jews explained the empty tomb by saying Jesus’ disciples stole Jesus’ body. The Christians countered, “How could we do that if it was guarded by soldiers?” The Jews countered, “You stole his body while the guards were asleep!” The Christians countered that the guards were bribed by the Jewish leadership to lie and say they were sleeping.” Why would Matthew invent an argument that detractors of Christianity were not making (Matthew’s hearers would know this, not to mention his detractors)? That makes no sense. The evidence is in favor of its historicity.
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August 10, 2018 at 2:57 pm
Jason:
I am glad you understood what Joe was getting at, I had trouble uderstanding what he was getting at.
In the meantime I did read an account one time that made the case that the Guard soldiers were Roman Centurions, the reason being that the Romans made a number of their centurions available to the Jew Council Sanhedrin to use as they saw fit in the management of the masses and for their own security as well as the security of the places they frequented.
And that it was a centurion or several that were at the disposal of the Jewish Council for security and control. The Jews may have had several centurions. each consisting of 100 men that Pilate was referring to when he said to the Jews you guard the tomb as you know how, that is using the forces the Romans were already providing them.
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August 10, 2018 at 4:08 pm
Dear Ruminator… First: Nope. My “underlying principle” is that for a number of reasons, the Gospels shouldn’t be seen as “history,” but as theological statements about Jesus. The statements are formulated and arranged by people who have already committed to that theology. That doesn’t, in my mind, diminish the Gospels in any way, but it does change the view.
And second: Yep. I’ve heard your arguments before, and I find (please note that I’m offering this as MY OPINION, and nothing more) that the arguments depend on having accepted the conclusion (i.e., that the episode is historical) in advance of the arguments. For example, your comment that “The Jews explained the empty tomb….” is valid only if you’ve already concluded that the episode is history, that the Jews actually did try to “explain the empty tomb.”. (I would phrase it that “Matthew proposes to explain the empty tomb by…”. I don’t see that as lessening in any way the impact of the doctrinal resurrection.)
And Jason, I’m sorry you missed my point, so let me make a second stab: Matthew is using this episode to underscore the remarkable nature of the resurrection. None of the other evangelists feel they need such support; the resurrection itself is all they need. And while they each have slightly different versions of the event, each views this as the pivotal event of Christian theology. The historical detail is irrelevant to that belief. We Christians accept the resurrection as real. Period. If Matthew wants to show a little imagination, well, that’s Matthew (he does the same things in other parts of his Gospel).
It’s worth noting that at this remove from the event, it is impossible to “prove” the resurrection in any sense that would be acceptable to all parties today. It is essentially an article of Faith. Believe it and act on the belief, and don’t worry about the details. If you want to shoehorn it into history, well, have at it, but that’s irrelevant to the dogma. Am I being clearer?
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August 10, 2018 at 7:06 pm
There is a huge difference between meaning of a word and the definition of the word.
Christians have always had a habit of changing language. They are not happy until they can change word definition into word meaning dispensing with long held definition altogether.
They take a word, change its the meaning and totally disregard the definition of the word to non christians. They then tend to only use the word they change in the context of the meaning they want it to reflect and with religious repetitious ritual they finger bead word with such obsessive fervour, the words take on a significance of something that only christians get turned on by in a world of their own devise.
They do it with such nonchalance as to render nonchalance a synonym for arrogance.
Some very common words Christianity has appropriated to use exclusively, within and without their cliches, are familiar to you………..Common words like: resurrection, baptism, even the word “word” came to depend on the meaning the cliche desired, to the neglect of word’s actual definition and alienated all non christians. Not atypical of a religious cult’s modus operandi.
Even the word baptism that is defined as vocation, lifework, occupation, career, profession, function, calling, pursuit. Even Jesus used the word baptism in the context of its definition, unlike christianity who can only accept its meaning they want it to be, with water, dunking, sprinkled whatever. But Jesus when asked for certain favours of him, replied using the word baptism as it was meant to be used by definition and here’s the story from Mark 10:
The Request of James and John
…James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37 They answered, “Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory.” 38“You do not know what you are asking, Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?”
A word is a word except when it is not a word as normal language defines it. A word becomes an entity, an entity becomes a person, the person becomes a word and the word becomes a person.This is the nonsense of belief. Changing the definition of the term “word”, meaning a component of language, into being a person, being an entity, being a being, being God. Turning language into a mythological creature of caricature supernatural quality whatever that means to anybody with a christian imagination marked on their forehead, is what shall we say, aahhhh……. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
just to think the thought of it
is something quite atrocious.
There have been times when a term actually transformed and became a part of language when it otherwise was not intended to become a part of language but it did so as evolution demanded. Such a word from a trade name term actually became so popular, it became a word of the language and that word is “kleenex”.
However this “word snatching” proved good in one instance of recent history some will be familiar with, if you’re old enough. When the word was a pejorative, a term of rebuke, a word of dishonour, a word of shame a word to bow one’s head at the sound of it. And then in whirlwind of wonderful wisdom a spider spun a different weave and the web no longer caught the group off guard. from a devojuring crowd of self righteous gideons.
Wisdom came to a group despised and served them with a marvellous design and here’s how they did it. The group en masse, as ants in the hill, as bees in a hive,at-one-ment, in atonement, expropriated the pejorative and appropriated the word as their own. They put it in their collective mouth, they chewed it, they rolled it round and round, they savoured the bitterness of it, as the bitterness of humanity they accepted it and then in miraculous unison they turned that bitterness into the sweetness of honey, they ate it, were filled with the joy of humility in it—they swallowed their pride— and the word they expropriated, appropriated and changed, to the chagrin of many a christian was the word “QUEER”.
And then with the world in a state of shock, the psychological metamorphosis began and transformed a world society in a daze by a spectral world that dazzled an Era, And the world of Queer enveloped the spirit and the spirit enveloped the world (well, with religious exception and who would have thought the religious, would be the last ones in?)
Queer Magazine, Queer Culture, Queer Television, Queer Entertainment and for the first time in the history of mankind Queer humanity was finally accepted as as essential part of the human experience and truly humanity began accepting each other: Humans Uniting Humanity. Who would have thought?
And now you know, without belief, the rest of the story.
Amen for the woman in your life
Awoman for the men in your life
As last equality.
The prophecy, “Parable of the Rooster”, prevails. for thos who have not yet learned to recite the Parable of the Rooster, here it is in all its splendid truth.
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August 10, 2018 at 7:11 pm
Hear the Parable of the Rooster:
Religious Scholars dread the advance of knowledge as vampires do the approach of daylight, scowling at the rooster heralding the fatal end of darkness and the end of the deceptions on which they feed.
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August 11, 2018 at 9:52 am
Leo the Greater… Wow. Impressive. But I’m missing something (not an uncommon failing for me). What is your point? The meanings of words evolve. New words come and old words go. Language is dynamic. It’s not a new thought. How does that apply to the comments on whether Matthew’s “guard the tomb” episode is, or even needs to be, historical?
And just by-the-bye, in Mark 10. the Greek word that Mark puts in Jesus’ mouth (Mark wasn’t there; he doesn’t really know what Jesus said, and in any case, Jesus would have used Aramaic, not Greek) is “baptizmo,” which means “to dip, or plunge (into water, or some other liquid).” It’s a wonderful and evocative metaphor. But I confess that I don’t know where you get the “vocation, occupation, etc.” meanings for “baptism”: I don’t find any hint of that in the Greek lexicon. But maybe I’m just missing something again.
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August 11, 2018 at 10:56 am
Joe:
Reading has a curious effect on the brain’s activity and elicits an array of connective musings and so when I write I tend to bring forth those apparent tangential deviations nut who am I to deny the spirit as I am lead?
How could you possibly miss the point about language? I know you’re smarter than that, mislead to be sure, nut smarter than that but nice try Joe.
I am not talking about general living, evolving language; I am talking about specific words surgically extracted by cultish organizations to push their cause.
“….They take a word, change its the meaning and totally disregard the definition of the word…….”
Now come on Joe, you mean to tell me that when Jesus said “Can you ……………..be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” He was talking about
“…….a “dip, or plunge….” in the water?
And as to whether Mark was there or not is not an argument to say he never said the words, somebody was there which can hardly be said of anything contained in Genesis but Christians don’t discount Genesis because nobody was there, they are mislead to be sure, but they don’t discount it. And of course that goes for a huge percentage of anything written in the bible which is why Christians are basically mislead and misguided about most of what they read in the bible…..Christians for the most part are only “texually active”, they are not “tangentially active”. They don’t, unfortunately, in my opinion, seem to have any tangential thoughts about anything they read; they seem only to be focussed on the myopic blinders like a horse being guided without extraneous influence, even from their own spirit elicits and so common sense does not factor into it because the tangential thoughts sparked are merely the spirit of common sense, among other things, assessing, evaluating what the author is writing.
Practically no Christian who has ever read the story of Jonah floundering in the sea, reads it with anything less than a supernatural slant. You’re familiar with the story; the story is recounted in the Quran as well so there are some four billion people mislead and misguided by that fairytale type of story.
As with any good narrative, the story of Jonah has a setting, characters, a plot, and themes. And relies heavily on the tangential elicits of the reader’s predispositioned belief system to make its points. But the point you made that Mark was not there; well, who was there to describe Jonah’s plight and which prompted Jesus to state that the only sign he would give the perverse religious world of his day, was the sign of Jonah, in that Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the place of the dead but raised FROM “the place of the dead”, not that he was raised from the dead but raised from the “place of the dead”, from the belly of Sheol?
I don’t know where you get the “vocation, occupation, etc.” meanings for “baptism”:
But Joe don’t you see? You have been duped by the water thing because that word’s definition has been usurped for the meaning Christians want it to be to the exclusion of synonyms and definitions found in any dictionary, Greek lexicon notwithstanding.
And you talk about “We Christians accept the resurrection as real. Period.”
Man oh man, that’s a sweeping statement especially after Jesus said his only sign would be the sign of Jonah, escaping from the place of the “dead”.
You can’t actually believe that Jesus was dead when he was entombed by his two best friends and secret disciples Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea
anymore than you can believe that Jonah was inside the belly of the big fish can you? Really?
But I digress; well, in my case as I explained, I tangentialize; but, I thank you for your comments and request to explain my writings. We may do it yet again.
Thank you. Peace to all men of good will, I remain, ………..
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August 11, 2018 at 2:23 pm
Leo the Greater…. Oh boy. Too much to unpack, at least in one session.
First, my new-found pen-pal, I’m not sure you read closely what I wrote. I wrote that Mark’s use of “baptism” in Mark 10 was, and I’ll quote myself, “a wonderful and evocative metaphor.” Did you miss the “metaphor” part? Of course I wasn’t offering that Jesus was suggesting a dip in the lake; that would be silly.
And I’ve checked the OED (the “bible” for English words) and I still can’t find anything about “baptism” being a “vocation, etc.” What dictionary are you using?
And I thought that I DID get your point about language — words are in many cases fungible. People adapt words for specific uses (but “baptism” probably isn’t one of those words) — for example, Paul’s consistent use of the Greek “public meeting” — “ekklesia” — within a “Christian” context to mean what we now call a “church.” (This shows up as well in Matthew’s Gospel — “upon this rock I will build my church” [Mt 16:18].) And my question still is, what is the application of this discussion on words to the original post about Matthew’s guard-the-tomb episode?
But, it seems that I am easily duped and misled, so I eagerly await your next post to get me back on the right track.
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August 11, 2018 at 3:50 pm
Joe Maher:
Putting you on the right track….”what is the application of this discussion on words to the original post about Matthew’s guard-the-tomb episode?”
I believe you missed the very first sentence of my post as I apparently missed the “metaphor” term that Mark used for the Jesus statement to the Zebedee boys.
My very first sentence explained the discussion of words thusly: “….Reading has a curious effect on the brain’s activity and elicits an array of connective musings and so when I write I tend to bring forth those apparent tangential deviations….”
So it was these tangential deviations that transitioned from the topic “…the original post about Matthew’s guard-the-tomb episode…” to the word discussion that was related indirectly to the original comment by tangential deviations elicited by the spirit (which I could not deny).
That should satisfy that query.
Now regarding the metaphor Mark put in Jesus’s mouth: while it may be true that Mark was not there although we don’t know if he was or if he wasn’t ; on the other hand the gospel of Mark is considered anonymous since nobody really knows who wrote Mark’s Gospel. But let’s put that aside for moment and consider Matthew’s account @20:20; starts the same story about the Zebedee boys asking to sit the one on the left and the other of the right of Jesus in his glory and by association presumably they would bask in the warm glow of Jesus glory.
Now we know that John and James were both disciples of Jesus and we know that Matthew was a disciple and we know that Matthew was the twelve were travelling with Jesus, because in verse 24 in says: “….And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers…..
Now to me baptism was not use as a metaphor because that wouldn’t have made sense; but, as a “vocation” or a “mission” a “calling’, baptism’s synonyms, that would have fit in very well with the mindset of Jesus in his campaign (his mission).
I used the same definition of baptism as Jesus meant when he used it, at least I thought I was using it in the same way but you think that was wrong:
A dictionary definition not the biblical/Christian definition.
But at least we can agree that we understand our terms if nothing else: my example:
“….a person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult.
“this event constituted his baptism as a politician”
synonyms: initiation, debut, introduction, inauguration, launch, rite of passage, vocation, calling, to be baptized by fire,
“his baptism as a politician”
Part of Jesus baptism, mission he identified in John 7:7
“…..7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil…..”
This he said to his brothers about why he was not going up to the Festival, after the opening of John’s chapter 7:1 that disclosed ….The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.”
That was Jesus’s baptism and the consequences it begat, not the baptism by water by which jesus underwent the ritual for show and support of John’s mission (read John’s Baptism) “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” he said, when John tried to deter him, because the people believed John was a prophet and Jesus by bestowing his blessing, dignified and glorified his cousin John.
Don’t you just love tangential discussions and a free ranging spirit?
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August 11, 2018 at 4:19 pm
Leo the Greater …. You wrote: “That should satisfy that query.” And I’ll respond, no it certainly does not. Basically, as I understand what you wrote, your comments have nothing to do with the “guard the tomb” post. In which case, I’m wondering why you opened the discussion. It is, as you suggest, merely your random musings about how words are used within a Christian context (I think). You simply appended your musings to a subject without a word about how or why the “transition” (as you put it) took place.
OK. Let’s drop the subject of the original post.
I’ll go back to the first sentence you offered in this line: “There is a huge difference between (the) meaning of a word and the definition of the word.” No, Mr Leo (Greater or not), that is most surely not the case. I’m not at all sure we’re even on the same page here.
The “definition” of a word IS its meaning. The meaning may vary as the context varies (“gay” meant one thing in the 1950s; it means something else entirely today), but a good dictionary will provide “meanings” within the contexts applicable to the word. I have not a clue as to what you’re talking about. The “spirit” is apparently leading you in directions that aren’t immediately available to me.
You’re sticking with this “vocation, etc.” as synonyms for “baptism,” and I’ll ask one more time: What dictionary are you using for these synonyms? I’ve asked twice before, and gotten nada but tap dancing. Without some “source” for your “meanings,” I think this discussion may be over. If the “meanings” are only what you have decided fits your interpretations, then we really have nothing to talk about. These are your “meanings,” and no one else’s. They are not mine, nor do I see any reason for adopting them. We seem to have reached an unbridgeable gap.
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August 11, 2018 at 5:12 pm
You said Mark wasn’t there and put the word in Jesus’s mouth as a metaphor.
I told you Matthew used the same word in his Gospel and he was there.
Jesus did not use a metaphor.
Then you resort to continually ask stupid questions like a school kid. “What dictionary are you using for these synonyms?”
You can change the name of a fool but you can’t change the fool by a name.
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August 11, 2018 at 5:21 pm
You Belief: I see because I believe.
Me Knowledge: I believe because I see.
Give me 3 minutes of knowledge and you can have 3 millennia of belief; I will advance and you will not.
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August 11, 2018 at 5:25 pm
When one reaches an unbridgeable gap it’s time to jump off, you’ve lost already.
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August 11, 2018 at 7:20 pm
OK. We’re done here.
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August 11, 2018 at 8:25 pm
No we’re not done. You’re done, because you’re lost.
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August 11, 2018 at 8:33 pm
Yes, we are done. I wasn’t playing a win-lose game; I was (or so I thought) having a discussion about, well, I first thought it was about the “guard the tomb” episode in Matthew’s Gospel, then it seemed to morph into a discussion of the meaning of “baptism,” then it veered off into God knows where. And I decided an open-ended discussion about something trapped in your mind wasn’t worth my effort. So I quit. If you want to see that as you “winning” and me “losing,” well have at it Bro’. I’m done with it.
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August 11, 2018 at 9:54 pm
I was not referring to a win-lose game. I said you are lost; that is, “You (contraction) (a)re) —–lost. You’re lost.
It’s not a question of winning a post commentary debate. There is something greater at play here than mere ego rattling. Everybody in the tyranny of belief is lost. We can niggle about semantics and word meanings and definitions but truth is more than an academic exercise. People don’t die and rise up from the grave alive; believers are in thrall by the resurrection;
Lazarus was not dead
the graves did not open at the crucifixion
graves did not open
the dead did not rise and return to their loved ones.
Jesus said touch me feel me I am alive not a ghost with flesh and bones. Common sense does not allow normal people to believe that people can rise up on a vaporous cloud and go out of sight. Fish and bread do not just appear out of thin air; there are other explanations for such stories and you just have to use your brain to figure them out; i.e., get knowledge and supplant belief. Then you’re free!
No belief system can ever be justified, belief can never set you free and while proponents of belief systems try their best to defend the tyranny by arguing against knowledge it cannot accomplish anything of value; it’s meaningless. Belief is as worthless as a degree from Trump University.
Many Christian comments argue against Jesus unwittingly and use Paul’s philosophy to justify it.
This is the substantive meat I would really like to discuss. What value is there in talking about guards at the tomb; if you knew what really happened and why Jesus was not there and how the stone rolled away on its own seek knowledge instead of the lazy religious way with the supernatural catch all basket. If you know what happened and how it happened you would know how useless guards at the tomb was. But you can’t have knowledge and belief at the same time they’re incompatible.
But if you don’t want to open your mind to let knowledge in, you choose to remain in non knowledge, in ignorance; AKA, belief. I chose knowledge and I know almost exactly what took place in every case about those things Christians readily accept as mysterious miracles of the paranormal. Makes for box office movie hits and fills the collection plates but your mind is desensitized of common sense and sucked out of its cranial cavity like egyptian mummies….the walking dead among us. That’s the tyranny of religion.
The devilish irony consists in the fact that ‘divine judgment’ and ‘damnation’ are themselves the inventions of religion: religion creates and exquisitely perfects the fear, then cynically declares itself the sole and indispensable liberator from it. And yet we are invited to credit religion as the source of true freedom? It is a laughable claim, a disgraceful claim, a claim that makes a mockery of language as well as of truth and of human dignity.
True freedom requires us to liberate ourselves from the tyranny of religion as well as from the tyranny of brutal earthly regimes. True freedom involves the freedom to think, to explore, to grow; the freedom to pursue knowledge and learning, wherever they lead; the freedom to be different, not to conform; freedom from bigotry; freedom from ignorance; freedom to love and to express that love as we choose; freedom to be ourselves, to accept ourselves, warts and all, and to accept others on the same terms; freedom to choose our own meaning and purpose in life, and to make our own decisions on the basis of those free choices; freedom to make mistakes; freedom to change our mind; freedom from fear, especially from phoney fears invented by those whose only aim is to control us in word, thought and deed.
I hope you can glean something useful from this.
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August 12, 2018 at 10:52 am
You’re right. I misread your comment. Read it too fast, I suspect, and jumped to a conclusion. Mea culpa.
Anyhow, having read the above I can only offer that had you written this first off, I would have had a much better idea of what you were talking about and been better able to follow your train of thought. We may actually have something to talk about. Wanna try again?
You seem to be very much anti-(organized) religion — it’s too restrictive, too intent on funneling “belief” onto a proscribed path, too anti-intellectual. I would generally agree with that, but only “generally.”
For example, “belief” and “knowledge” are not enemies. (You seem to equate “belief” with “ignorance”; I wouldn’t be quite that facile with the ideas.) Both are ways of dealing with the real world: “knowledge” is the acceptance that comes with direct experience; “belief” fills in when that direct experience is absent. There’s a very wide range of entry points for “belief,” from justified and almost certain (evidence-driven), to unjustified and perhaps unjustifiable. But, broadly speaking, there’s nothing wrong with “belief”: it is in fact necessary for us to get from day-to-day.
The problem comes when folks assume that “direct experience” is the only valid way of operating, and “belief” is of no value. Or, conversely, when folks assume that “belief” invalidates direct experience. The relationship between the two is a dynamic one. There’s a push-and-pull that is part of both our intellectual and physical life.
And that relationship changes with changing contexts. It’s one thing when we consider, for example, the existence of God, quite another when it’s the reliability of written texts (the “guard the tomb” passage, for example), and yet another when we do day-to-day planning. And we can probably come up with dozens of other “contexts” that change the knowledge-belief equation.
I wouldn’t be quite as dismissive about “belief” as you seem to be — at least in a “religious” context. Religious belief is a human invention that is intended to help people deal with the world. If it helps you, go for it; you don’t have to explain yourself to anyone. But if you try to force others into the same path, then the bar gets a lot higher; you have some explaining to do — particularly, I would guess, when the two seem to conflict.
Absent the recognition that different people think differently, “organized” religion becomes a blatant power-grab; and without the defined “path,” it’s no longer an “organized” religion. It is a conundrum for organized religionists. (I think (maybe) that you’d agree with that.)
Given that, you and I might have some differences on some religion concepts — the existence and “nature” of God, for example, or the reliability of texts, or theologies, a few other things. But, those are reasonable discussions. (I am, however, still confused about your “baptism” issues. Somewhere along the line, you’re going to have to explain that one to me.)
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August 12, 2018 at 11:54 am
Thank you for your uplifting comment and thank you for reopening the discussion. I will be pleased to further our understanding; I think we have more in common than otherwise. We can winnow the chaff and the wheat in a willingness with intellectual compromise and diplomacy.
I am going to take some time away from the computer now but will answer some of your points in our next engagement, In the meantime I’ll leave you with the following about friendship, which “I believe” from your last post, that you have opened that door to an invitation and I don’t mind taking it.
The only thing that requires friendship is to be befriended. And you can’t compel another person’s friendship and you can’t compel another person’s love. You can’t go to somebody with your fist clenched and say you’re going to be my friend. Did you make friends like that? I didn’t get my wife that way; I keep her that way but I didn’t get her that way.
Later/
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August 12, 2018 at 8:39 pm
J Maher
I’ll make an effort to stick to the points without veering off with tangential thoughts. Mea Culpa.
1. Mea culpa…………consolationes spirituales sint vobiscum…
2. Wanna try again?……yes
3. Religion is good as a channeler, like the Red Cross. Religion has several functions one of which consists of good people using community resources to channel their goodness in food kitchens, shelters and resource distribution. Traditional religion…gee I just went tangential and forced myself to erase 15 line of text!
4. For example, “belief” and “knowledge” are not enemies…..broadly speaking, there’s nothing wrong with “belief”: it is in fact necessary for us to get from day-to-day. I AGREE. When belief is a companion to an end but not the end itself.
5. It was belief after all that led, even guided, many people to do great things; the one that comes immediately to mind: Jonas Salk became a national hero when he allayed the fear of polio with his vaccine, approved in 1955. After the vaccine belief vanished like a spent rocket that launched the satellite; nevertheless, although it was the first polio vaccine, it was not to be the last; Albert Sabin introduced an oral vaccine in the 1960s that replaced Salk’s.
6. There is a difference in belief of Santa Claus/the existence of God
the reliability of written texts (the “guard the tomb” passage, for example), With the text: we’ve got second and third hand accounts which have been doctored and edited, translated and revised and re-written interpreted, through, ahead, backwards so many times that the truth may no longer bear any resemblance to itself if it ever did. The various versions of the Bible is a good example in our modern time. Indulge me for a moment as I insert the following from the American Bible Society web page regarding biblical text:
“………I am afraid no one can give you an exact number for the English translations and paraphrases of the Bible printed since Tyndale’s New Testament of 1526.(King James 1611) In part this is due to the difficulty of determining what should be defined as a new translation as opposed to a correction or a revision of an existing translation. There is the additional question of how we should count translations that include not a complete Bible or Testament, but just a group of books or even a single book. And then, of course, there is the difficulty of sheer numbers. With all these caveats in mind, the number of printed English translations and paraphrases of the Bible, whether complete or not, is about 900……..”
7. Belief is not an invention but religion that exploits it is. Belief a naturaI fallback without knowledge; all religion derives from a person and exploits the non knowledge that gives rise to imaginations of the boogieman, gremlins and angels, devils and gods. Belief can help you in Salk-like ventures but as an end it cannot help
8. I agree with that from first hand knowledge. My brother born Catholic became a Pentecostal, during those days I accompanied him occasionally in his church of choice. After several months a cliche was formed and the cliche began holding prayer meetings at the houses of the various cliche members, in turn, while still attending the regular church services. Then one of the cliche members said they were going to start their own church and hired a hall on a regular basis where all the cliche began to congregate and moved to with most of the group in tow. It was within a year or so that another member decided to start his own church and so another cliche followed him including my brother
and still remain with the second startup. He;’s been there several years and everybody of course is encouraged to recruit their friends and relatives and friends and relatives of those friends and relatives and then a regular service saw attendance on Wednesdays and Sundays and other “special events upwards of several hundred regular members. Collection plate records were diligently kept along with tithing records and in recognition of those records and a track record of a couple of years, the bank bankrolled the building of a new church with state of the art stage and television facilities and man oh man what a Bible Base Belief Business it Became. Brother is a collector/treasurer and keeps the business books quite secret. My best friend at University was the former Dean of Men, a Jesuit Priest, from the days of the teaching administration in charge of the facility.
9. Ahh yes baptism.
So Jesus said, “….“Can you …be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?……” AND Jn 7:7 “The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.” FOLLOWING Jn 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him.”
That was Jesus’s baptism Jesus was referring to and the consequences it begat eventually…………
Definition excerpt taken from Oxford Dictionary
Definitions 1, / 1.1, / 1.2. The 1.2 definition was the definition Jesus was talking about. following the definition 1.2, Click on (example) sentences; and click on (synonyms)
“….a person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult.
“this event constituted his baptism as a politician”
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/baptism
Thank you
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August 13, 2018 at 10:20 am
“consolationes spirituales sint vobiscum” — et idem tibi. (“et tecum” would also work.)
(And, to pick a nit: “vobiscum” is “(with) you” plural, and there’s just one of me; “tecum” may have been the better choice. As I say, a nit; I get — and appreciate — the meaning.)
” I AGREE. When belief is a companion to an end but not the end itself.”
Tough point. I’m having a hard time imagining what “belief” — or “knowledge,” for that matter — would look like as an “end” in itself. Both belief and knowledge are “states of mind” that generate the context for our behaviors (and our “goals”). I would think that, almost by definition, it would be impossible for belief (or knowledge) to be an “end” in itself. Believing something just for the sake of believing something would seem a non-rational exercise.
(Yes, I’ve heard of “knowing for the sake of knowing.” But I would argue that it may be a nice thing to say, but it’s essentially meaningless. Knowledge of ANYTHING changes how you think — and how you act. In the same way, I can’t imagine a “belief” that wouldn’t change either one’s goals or one’s behavior, or both.)
“Ahh yes baptism.”
Well, I know I seem obsessed with this, but… words are important.
In a couple of your initial posts to me, you seem to have used “baptism” as a synonym for “life’s work.” I’ve looked at the definition you pointed to, and I would point out, first, that this refers to the current “English” interpretation of the term. And second, even there, it refers to the “initiation” into some endeavor, not to the endeavor itself.
In any case, its meaning in the Gospels is limited to its Greek (and underlying Hebrew) meanings in the first century — For John, Jesus, and his followers, it meant “to dip or immerse in water.” Its first-century Hebrew purpose was “purification”; for John, it was a symbol of “repentance”; for later-first-century Christians, it was an initiation rite.
In Mark 10:38, Mark is putting on Jesus’ lips a metaphorical use of the Greek “baptizmo,” and probably within the new “Christian” context for the word: can you take on the same challenges as I am about to encounter (“can you be baptized with my baptism”)? This captures the transition from John’s repentance (and renewal) to Christian initiation (and renewal); it embodies the “commitment” that the baptized was expected to make — either to a Jewish “renewal” or to a new “Christian life.”.
I realize that we’ve both arrived in about the same place with this. My “complaint” is with the path. I am too invested in the way words are used to simply passively accept what I perceive as a… well, as a misdirection. (We can both drive to the same church for the same service, but if I drive on people’s lawns, you would be entirely within your rights to complain about my “path.”) Did I mention that I was obsessive about this?
Carry on.
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August 13, 2018 at 1:16 pm
Just one further note on baptism. When I mentioned earlier the same story (post 19 par 6,7,8…..) with only a slight variation at Matthew 20:22 “….But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?….” Did Matthew also use the term as a metaphor since Matthew was indeed there? Although there are scholars who think Matthew’s Gospel was written by a second generation Christian and not Matthew one of the 12 of which the Zebedee sons were two. The only difference I can see is that Mark says it was the sone who asked, and Matthew says it was the sons’ mother who asked the favour.
Once upon a time I walked in belief, sure in my mind I could go to the location I wanted to fetch a needed product. So I walked up and down the several vegetable aisle shelves to pick up an asparagus bunch. Now this story actually relates to my comment of knowledge vs belief as an end in itself and you clearly pointed out that neither belief not knowledge is an end in itself, and I concede that you are right about that.
So I walked in belief up the aisle and down the aisle sure I would find the product at least sure that I would stumble upo0n it since I did not know where it was exactly. After going back and forth two or three times I thought they must be sold out as I remained empty handed. However not to be deterred I decided to take a different approach and committed myself, not to a mental hospital mind you but I began looking for the grocery attendant who happened to be in plain sight as I wheeled around. When I was close enough to catch his attention with my wave, I asked if the store was sold out of asparagus to which he replied he didn’t think so and said where it was. I went with confidence of knowledge to the area and presto, sure enough there it lay. Why didn’t I see it? I went blindly in belief? Others may have gone blindly as I had and spotted it straight away. It’s a simple analogy.
So if Mark used baptism as a metaphor for what Jesus actually said what do you suppose metaphor replaced; and why would you assume baptism was a metaphor , for what? in the context of the questions he asked, what did Jesus actually say; what could Jesus have possibly said that would be a viable inference for the context of “….can you drink the cup that I shall drink….” or be – – – – – – – with the – – – – – – – that I shall be – – – – – – – with. And more importantly, why would baptism be inserted as a metaphor or do you suppose the entire story was fabricated? By Mark, by Matthew?
A quick tangential note, The term God is a metaphor.
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August 13, 2018 at 2:14 pm
(A) You’re assuming that Matthew was “there” (when Jesus said something like, “Can you be baptized with the same baptism as me?”). Not many main-stream NT scholars would agree with that (and I would agree with the majority opinion).
The arguments for the Gospel authors being our old friend “Anonymous” are too long for a post like this, but if you’d like…. I don’t think such a discussion would be short. (There are more than a few books available that deal with the subject.)
The bottom line. however, is that “Matthew,” whoever he was, was not the Apostle Matthew. This “Matthew” wasn’t an eyewitness; he copied Mark’s text, with some minor variations. (The jury’s still out on Mark’s “source,” with agreement only that his Gospel isn’t an eyewitness report.)
(B) I’m not sure you’ve got “metaphor” pinned down. Metaphors don’t “replace” anything. They are literary devices used to refer indirectly to another idea, usually in more descriptive and poetic (and therefore more emotional) terms than the original. If you want to see it as” replacement,” then it replaces the more mundane language of the original — in this case, let me try: “Can you face the same challenges that I will be facing when I get to Jerusalem?” That’s certainly more “direct” than the metaphor…. but remember, Mark is telling a story, and his concern is not with the “exact language” but with the idea. Metaphors often have more emotional impact than the “exact” language.
I would note that Mark’s “drink the cup” language is another metaphor: neither Mark nor Jesus means “drink from a physical cup.” The “metaphor” is part of a good writer’s toolbox. Mark uses it well here, and Matthew copies him (although Luke does not, despite that he seems to have had Mark’s Gospel in front of him).
And onward we go.
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August 13, 2018 at 4:15 pm
I accept your arguments about Mathew not being there if you dispense with the scriptures altogether; what value are they otherwise?
Or, if not dispense with them, disagree with them enough as to render scriptures meaningless and that’s the problem with trying to have an intelligent conversation about the bible: “And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers.” This, in both Matthew and Mark,no matter who copied who or who wrote the text; if it means something else; well, what is it?
There’s nothing you can’t read into the bible or take from it. So whatever attitude, experience, upbringing, environment that you harbour. it will find justification in scripture because, like the sands of the desert, fixed and immutable, yet, ever shifting, the words (of god) are infinitely versatile. Open that book and watch them dance across the page like ninjas, each one a soldier for you and your prejudices.
Because scripture depends on interpretation, because it is so ambiguous, the way you choose to interpret it, reveals who you are in your heart.
So if all we do is niggle about authorship, or words, or text, we’ll accomplish
little by searching using only the fumes of belief slanted without exception to supernatural imaginings. You may just as well follow the wisdom of the oracles of Greek mythology and harken therewith.
I was born with a mission. Despite hardships and backslidings I followed with zeal the bible that much of the world focussed on; especially the Christian world into which I was birthed, with hundreds if not thousands of denominations all following the same Book, going down different paths communicating different messages. Though none of them knew what they were doing, always fighting with and arguing against, enemy denominations; but hey, if you know the truth you don’t have to argue or fight with the malcontents following the wrong path. If you truly know you do not have to debunk the others. The best you can hope for is that you will find a soul with a thirst from the truth and who luckily has been spared the indoctrination of snake-oil salesmen selling miracle water in ketchup packages. Not proselytizing but opening up to let sincere others in, seeking, asking, knocking
What I discovered was that what Christians believed for the most part did not come from the bible, it came from church. When I attended church as a kid of 12 years old, I didn’t listen to the priest preaching; I read the gospels instead. And from those gospels I gained an insight into the life and messages of Jesus that I have never heard any other Christian describe, except ONE. Of all the people I have ever heard talk about the essence of Jesus message not more than one person ever understood Jesus in the same way that I did, not one.
And of course that is a challenge for me as it was a challenge for Jesus. But if Jesus ever came back, which he won’t, and he saw what people had made of his teachings, he’d quickly realize that nobody had listened to a word he said, that he was wasting his breath and that he’d wasted his life.
Except it was not wasted on the few who have not succumbed to, or followed the crowd of, golden delusionists.
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August 13, 2018 at 5:01 pm
–“I accept your arguments about Mathew not being there if you dispense with the scriptures altogether; what value are they otherwise?”
OK. The New Testament is a valuable record of people trying to get their arms around the idea of “God.” Pulling away from their Jewish roots, influenced by Greek thinking, they were literally inventing a new way of looking at “God.” Their insights, debates, mistakes, and conclusions can be a “foundation” for our own exploration of a Transcendent God. That “God” is certainly not the imaginings of those earliest Christians (any more than God is the “Yahweh” of the Hebrews). We have to “update” our notions of a “creator God” to fit in with what we know about twenty-first century philosophy, science, and society. It is no mean task — but the Scriptures (ours, as well as those of other approaches to God) are a valid starting point.
I was asked, a long time ago, about the diversity of “religious” societies (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc.). “They can’t all be right,” I was told. “No,” I agreed, “but they can all be wrong.” Each may have a piece of the “truth,” but only a piece. Finding that piece is another story altogether. (And, truth be told, an explanation of “God” may be so far beyond our present capabilities, that our best present course may be to pick an approach we can deal with (Christian, non-Christian, agnostic, atheistic…) and stick with it.
–“What I discovered was that what Christians believed for the most part did not come from the bible, it came from church.”
Good insight. Christian “theology” is a product of the discussions and debates, prayerful and otherwise, of the first few centuries after Jesus. Such “doctrines” as Incarnate God, or the Trinity, or Virgin Conception, or pick-your-favorite are not in the New Testament.However, once the doctrines are in place, it’s not hard to read them all back into the literature. Doesn’t make things any easier.
–“So if all we do is niggle about authorship, or words, or text, we’ll accomplish
little by searching using only the fumes of belief slanted without exception to supernatural imaginings.”
Holy cow! If who wrote the books, where they got their info, what the words mean… and all that — if that means nothing, where can you start in building a belief system? Do you honestly think you can build it straight out of your own mind? Do you really think you can THINK your way through this? Alone?
That’s a tall, tall order, Mr Leo. If you can do it, “the Greater” is too weak an epithet.
–“And of course that is a challenge for me as it was a challenge for Jesus.”
Whoops. Careful. It gets a little dicey when you start thinking of yourself in terms of “Jesus.” I think I can assure you that it’s unlikely that your understanding of Jesus is unique. But, then, I don’t know what your understanding of Jesus is, or why you think it’s unique.
Carry on.
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August 13, 2018 at 10:17 pm
Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as Exodus, Book of Leviticus, Numbers and most of Book of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
Nobody was there keeping the record of mankind in Genesis. Where did the information to chisel out Genesis come from except the imagination and hand me down stories mouth to mouth and from other imaginations.
The yearly cycle that characterized the ancients living 700, 900 years old is pretty far fetched; more likely than not a year was actually a moon cycle and anyone doing the math would find that the average yearly lifespans ranging from 700 – 900 divided by 12 moon cycles would work out to 58 years to 75 years.
Proportionately, the female period of fertility – today 12-13 years 144 t0 156 moon cycles. Adam is said to have been 130 years (moon cycles) of age when Seth the third child is said to have been born at 130 years(moon cycles) Adam would actually have been about 11 or so years of age but the age would seem to be more in line between 144 and 190 moon cycles (12yrs -16yrs)
But where did Moses get his information to chisel Genesis, as well as Exodus, Book of Leviticus, Numbers and most of Book of Deuteronomy, except from word of mouth from his predecessors, imagination and cave drawings in the pyramids.
Excerpt from the Book of Moses by LTG:
Regarding the Ten Observations. Using imagination for a moment. Here we are 6, 7, 10, 100,000 thousand years ago, no one knew what the heck thunder was except it was the caricature concept of the god myth Thor, pounding his hammer in displeasure at the behavior of the human race in the cave mode society and all hell’s breaking loose.
You’ve got people kicking and shoving, spitting and gouging and getting their come-up-ins and the whole society is in an uproar without a system of containment; it’s every man for himself, dog eat dog and everyone getting while the getting’s good. Imagine for a moment that you are in this scenario and wondering what is going on and why are people going crazy, it seems, and no one has any more sense than the next guy. Surely this is a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye mentality and why wouldn’t it be; after all, who knew any better how to handle life when it seems to come upon the human race suddenly?
THE TEN OBSERVATIONS
[ 1 ] IN WALKS Moses. Whoa fellow, hold on and let’s assess what’s happening here dude.
[ 2 ] LET US figure this scene out as the current way is just too crazy and makes no sense.
[ 3 ] SO MOSES did some thinking and decided to do a survey. That was the beginning of keeping records.
[ 4 ] WHICH today is the truest indication of a civilized society. Why? Why was Moses bothered by this?
Moses wanted to determine the root causes of all the violence in society; what things people did that caused retribution and killing and maiming and utter chaos it seemed, all around in the community in their daily lives. There’s got to be some way to understand the workings of the human mind so as to adjust and live in harmony and peace, thought Moses, but what did that magic might look like?
SO MOSES SCRATCHED his head and determined he would research by thinking (meditating on and) with God about the cause of the havoc in society; in particular, Moses wanted to explore why there were so many capital penalties taking place, so the task came to Moses and he knew what he had to do. The answer must come direct from the God and so Moses THOUGHT GOD.
In those days all thoughts, it was thought, came from God to God’s representatives and Moses gave quiet thanks for the thought that was leading him this day to go on a retreat in the mountain.
On top of Mt Sinai one could get closer to the spirit as one surveyed the vast expanse of land. The Mountain was like being in the desert or being alone on the seashore where one’s mind could get away from the bombardment of daily life. Looking out over the expanse Moses thought about life and death, not so much about birth and natural death as much as about the life and unnatural and untimely death of the citizens by the hand of their fellows.
Moses could have been the precursor to the David Letterman’s The Late Show with a list of the TOP TEN REASONS FOR…………. So Moses began concentrating on the top ten reasons that people kill each other.
Number One Moses reasoned was when people rebelled against religious teachings that dictated the way to live; you must believe and love the Lord thy God with your whole heart and soul and spirit and mind and if you did not accept that you were cursed and put to death, much like Muslims do today to apostates if they convert to another religion like Christianity for example, or deny the true spirit of Islam, for that is a blasphemy the ego of men will not allow.
The number one reason then for untimely death was people denying god and not only denying but setting up their own statues of worship and idol…Idols of animals representing the beast of labor for the harvest and food and idols of women representing the natural evolution of life, in birth, by a woman, as in the case 2000 years ago when Diana was the idol of choice for worship and fed the economy as people flocked to the ancient Dollar Stores to get their Diana statues and bookmarks and prayer beads like the Bible Stores one sees today selling religious wares and medals and statues of modern day religious idols.
Tradition says that Diana was born in the woods near Ephesus, where her temple was built, when her image of wood (possibly ebony; Acts 19:35) fell from the sky (see also ASTRONOMY, sec. I, 8 (2)). Also according to tradition the city which was later called Ephesus was founded by the Amazons, and Diana or Cybele was the deity of those half-mythical people. Later when Ephesus fell into the possession of the Greeks, Greek civilization partly supplanted the Asiatic, and in that city the two civilizations were blended together.
The Greek name of Artemis was given to the Asiatic goddess, and many of the Greek colonists represented her on their coins as Greek. Her images and forms of worship remained more Asiatic than Greek Her earliest statues were figures crudely carved in wood. Later when she was represented in stone and metals, she bore upon her head a mural headdress, representing a fortified city wall; from it, drapery hung upon each side of her face to her shoulders.
The upper part of her body was completely covered with rows of breasts to signify that she was the mother of all life. The lower arms were extended. The lower part of the body resembled a rough block, as if her legs had been wrapped up in cloth like those of an Egyptian mummy. In later times her Greek followers represented her with stags or lions standing at her sides. The most renowned of her statues stood on the platform before the entrance to her temple in Ephesus.
As the statues indicate, she impersonated the reproductive powers of men and of animals and of all other life. Many merchants became wealthy buying and selling the idols of choice but alas in the days of Moses, you could pay with your life if you were found out worshipping banned idols. The Number one REASON FOR AN UNTIMELY DEATH MOSES OBSERVED, WAS SIMPLY THAT.
And so Moses penned his Observation in such a way as to be a caution to the people that they ought not to do such things if they valued their life from the religious zealots (this zeal for religious adherence is still present in the Middle East as temples and buildings are destroyed and people killed) so Observation number one was written in a way to suggest that. AND thus the First OBSERVATION was written as a preventative religious caution:
1. I AM THE LORD THY GOD. THOU SHALT NOT HAVE FALSE GODS BEFORE ME. THOU SHALT NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that represents anything in heaven above, or represented on the earth beneath, or that is represented in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
The Ten Observations to be cont’d……..
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August 14, 2018 at 7:43 am
Leo, let me save you some trouble. The above simply makes no sense to me. It seems to have no “proposition,” no “development.” no “conclusions” — no “point.” You’re simply rambling, going from topic to topic, bible to myth to archaeology (cave drawings in the pyramids? — really?) without transition or connection — stream of consciousness stuff. I’m sure YOU know where you’re going with this (at least I hope you do), but I surely don’t know what you’re after, and I won’t know if you get there. Unless you can clean this up, give it some shape, you’re wasting your time with me. I guess I’m just not smart enough to keep up with you….
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August 14, 2018 at 8:33 am
Joe:
You seem to forget what you say from one post to another. I am following and replying to one of your comments in post 35.
In your previous post you said:
“Holy cow! If who wrote the books, where they got their info, what the words mean… and all that — if that means nothing, where can you start in building a belief system? Do you honestly think you can build it straight out of your own mind? Do you really think you can THINK your way through this”
and I accommodated your position that one cannot write directly from the imagination about an event and
to show that supposition wrong I proceeded to offer you an example
And I did just that …………by writing how Moses came to write the Ten Commandments which I re-wrote to explain how he arrived at that point on Mount Sinai and re-titling the Ten Commandments as Moses’s Ten Observations.
Is your imagination asleep, void even because academia hase you stymied?
I could have written a different analogy if I would have focussed on another paragraph in a similar style to show that your paragraph needs to be rebuffed from your presumptive imperatives: You’re spirit cannot guide my writings, don’t you know that. So let me demonstrate to you once again about another of your presumptive paragraphs.
“…..Whoops. Careful. It gets a little dicey when you start thinking of yourself in terms of “Jesus.” I think I can assure you that it’s unlikely that your understanding of Jesus is unique. But, then, I don’t know what your understanding of Jesus is, or why you think it’s unique…….”
Why, I ask, would I need to be “…..Whoops. Careful……..” And you certainly cannot “….assure me…..” of anything.
I TRAVELLED WITH HIM:
He left for the desert after meeting with his cousin, John The Baptist, for a public baptism that would mark the beginning of his ministry to the world.
I was with him when he went into the desert to ponder his mission, what course of action he should follow with his passion for truth, his common sense for understanding the reality of nature and what was this thing called supernaturalism? He thought about how the Clergy deceive the masses with magic and trickery to gain their wealth; Christians call this the temptation but it was not temptation; it was merely meditating and recognizing the way of the religious world as the clergy operated.
I was with him when he contemplated the clergy, how they deceived the masses at every turn, at every opportunity they deceived for material gain regardless of the poor they hurt, despite the downtrodden when none of them mattered to the religious except for tithing; when the fitting and usual practice of the day clergy used sleight of hand, trickery and magic to deceive and confuse and deny the truth to everyone, preventing them from knowing the truth about the Kingdom, understanding the Kingdom, where it was, going to the Kingdom and refusing to go themselves for deceit cannot enter the Kingdom of Good; ( FRAUDS: “I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religious scholars, Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.” Matt 23:13, rendered slightly different in the KJV: “woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.” Tricking the masses to rely on supernatural quackery instead of the Kingdom of Love within them.
I was with Jesus when he thought “how easy it is, to use the ploys of deceit to devour the property of widows and for a pretense make a long and lengthy show of prayer words and excuses to rationalize greed’s insatiable appetite; to encourage the poor to give all they could afford and patiently wait for a supernatural miracle from on high to reward them for giving their all to the clergy; but no, he could never use his talents to do as the clergy did”.
These were just some of the thoughts of Jesus that are called the “Temptations”. However the Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness, to be tested by his innermost common sense thoughts and the best way to begin his campaign to change the way people viewed the Kingdom and open the minds of people to the reality of humanity must play to live fruitfully and meaningfully in compassion, forgiveness and integrity with core love.
“Sure you can take these stones and with a little magic and sleight of hand you too can cunningly devise a way to switch the stones to loaves of bread and feed the hungry and sure everyone would grovel at your feet and they would all give you their wealth for a touch of your garment for a piece of the supernatural power you have surely been given that might rub off on them by the great supernatural god of religious men.”
Yes, the ego was high when the realization came that one so powerfully motivated and the brightest candle in the room compared to the average villager; in fact, as smart as the wealthy members of the Jewish Council but for all their deceit you could see right through their guise and yes they would welcome your you and your intelligence onto the fold. OMG you could apparently throw yourself down the cliff and survive with your physical prowess and strength…… but no! He could not nor would not have any of their common deception.
Jesus was a man of common sense and he would work on behalf of and for, the common man, the poor man, the downtrodden, he would not be part of the deceptive clergy taking people for a ride all their lives under falsehoods and lies about the rewards and treasures in the supernatural heaven they preached, in the afterlife they promoted, which Jesus knew no such supernatural afterlife existed.
BUT he did know and accept that the Kingdom of God, the real god he called Father, did exist but existed, not externally in the supernatural of the there and then but indeed existed internally; internally, within you, in the here and now, in a place where all men could enter into spiritually but flesh and blood cannot enter and neither partake of, without the conduit spirit; if only, if only, the masses knew. Then would they see that heaven is not a place you go to but a place that you bring here to earth from within and so he coined the famous Lord’s Prayer, with that in mind when he stated Father who art in heaven, (within), hallowed and holy and revered is your name for you are the true God that exists; your Kingdom come, and we ask that thy will be done, on earth as it is in the Kingdom heaven within you.
And with these enduring thoughts in mind Jesus accepted the directive from the indwelling spirit of the highest powers, the Immanence within, knowing full well that the religious establishment would hate him for trying to change what they knew to be true but which they refused to teach nor practice themselves . And which Jesus lamented in John 7:1, “After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him”; AND, 7:7 “The (religious) world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Perhaps if you only make one point at a time for me to respond to then you can follow your own train of thought.
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August 14, 2018 at 11:45 am
Leo…. Ah, me I. can’t beat someone who believes he’s smarter than anyone else. I won’t try.
Your’e interpreting the Gospels in ways that suit you, Mr Leo, and ignoring that the Gospels are the evangelists’ interpretations of what they have heard from others, who are themselves interpreting what they heard about Jesus, probably from others….. Interpretation of interpretations of interpretations…. Far too tenuous a thread on which to hang a historical account — or to hang a theology, no matter how you rewrite it to fit your thinking. But, if it works for you, m’friend, then good for you; go for it. It doesn’t work for me. At all.
We’re talking past each other, Leo. Not a productive path.
(As an example, I might suggest that Moses did not write the Ten Commandments [by your words, you were “…writing how Moses came to write the Ten Commandments…”] As I read the OT passages, Moses wrote what God told him to write. Unless, that is, you’re interpreting the Book differently from the Book’s language. From my perspective, I would suggest that neither Moses nor God wrote the Ten Cs. Perhaps some later scholar or scholars, maybe starting in the time of the Judges and firming up around the 700s BC, adapted and formalized the accepted rituals and behaviors of the Israelites. I think the evidence for the latter view is overwhelming.)
–“Perhaps if you only make one point at a time for me to respond to then you can follow your own train of thought.” (You’re not the first one to make that observation, Leo.)
Right. I’ll make one last point. It’s been nice talking with you Leo. Have a good day.
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August 14, 2018 at 1:26 pm
And may my last points stir your soul to strive to get back to where you belong and take back that which you have apparently surrendered, common sense.
Who follows the mythological God(s) of the ancients is not smarter than the one who follows the God of Jesus, they are not the same; the Pharisees tried it and Pharisee Paul took over the Christians and continued the Pharisaical way duping Christians worldwide (Recall what I said in post 27: “….’Many Christian comments argue against Jesus unwittingly and use Paul’s philosophy to justify it’…..”) duping Christians worldwide who did not KNOW any better and had nothing going for them except belief in the ancient myths, which is to say they had nothing going for them.
God is a metaphor and so were the other approximate 45,000 precursor Christian deities and references, all created by man. None of the Metaphors ever talked to anybody.
To be ordained or graduate as a Priest or Minister is no different today than it was to graduate as a Prophet from the Sons of Prophets Academic Schools (The schools of the prophets were established by the prophet Samuel. The first mention of the “sons of the prophets”, as all the young men educated that way were called, we find it in 1 Samuel 10, when Saul is anointed as king. (1 Samuel 10:5) where one learned to be the messenger of God and everything thereafter that you thought, spoke or heard was communicated as God told me, God said, the Lord guided, everything credited or debited to God, it was ancient tradition that predated the writing of the Book 1 Samuel about 630 BC.
Even today the Pope is considered God on Earth. Throughout the centuries of Rome’s existence, the popes have regularly claimed to be divine. As the supposed successor of Peter, the Pope claims infallibility, the position of God on Earth, and ability to judge and excommunicate angels. He could easily make a decree and exclaim “God told me to decree”, as the Old Prophets did but that wouldn’t go over the same way amidst the secular world that education and knowledge has raised up, unlike the despised masses the religious hierarchy tyrannized.
A letter from Cardinal Giuseppe Sarto (who became Pope Pius X in 1903) as quoted in Publications of the Catholic Truth Society Volume 29 (Catholic Truth Society: 1896), said this:
The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself…i
This belief has so assimilated into society’s thinking that it is believed by many beyond Catholic circles. According to TIME, Pope John Paul II’s assassination attempt prompted a young Jewish man to say, “shooting the Pope—It’s like shooting God.”
TRADITIONAL RELIGION
Neglects the benevolence of its members that made it wealthy, for the advancement of its administrators, who obsess themselves with the ritualism and offerings taken from the ancient tradition to mesmerize the congregation with guilt while holding the hierarchy as the only absolvers of the guilt the masses are indoctrinated to carry……….that’s religion in these days.
Ancient religion was far more obsessed with enforcing the Laws of Ritualisms by penalties to show and maintain dominance. And as today they were everywhere indispensable.
Ancient/Modern Religious Tradition:
God’s will, so called, is revealed in the “holy” scriptures. The sacred book formulates the will of God and specifies what is to be given to the clergy. Clergy become parasites. All things of life are so ordered that the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. Natural values become utterly valueless. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience to God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power.
You believe God told Moses what to write but as I already mentioned tradition in those days followed that even thought was from God and all thought from the appointed prophets and self appointed prophets was referred to as God did, said, directed, told, etc…The only reason you and anybody believes this nonsense is because you don’t know any better either by brainwashing or by self desensitization.
And of course you believe that God tricked the Moses at the burning bush and not the elders and you believe it was God that told Moses to go before Pharaoh and when Pharaoh asks for a miracle perform a miracle with the staff turning into a serpent. And after the miracle from God was it that THE COURT MAGICIANS DID exactly the the same magic trick; aka, god’s miracle.
You are textually active unfortunately, either for pence and power, possibly by indoctrination or self deception; I don’t know which or why but while your belief system is like shearing a pig, lots of squeals but little wool.
Give me 3 minutes of knowledge and you can have your 3 millennia of belief, I will advance and you will not.
God, the metaphor is also credited with saying:
“Listen to my Message, you Sodom-schooled leaders. Receive the Higher Power revelation within you, the common sense you were born with, you Gomorrah-schooled people.
“Why this frenzy of sacrifices? Don’t you think I’ve had my fill of burnt sacrifices, rams and plump grain-fed calves? Don’t you think I’ve had my fill of blood from bulls, lambs, and goats? When you come here, whoever gave you the idea of acting like this, running here and there, doing this and that-all this sheer commotion in the place provided for worship, reflection and meditation of what is good for humanity?
Quit your worship charades. Your pretentious self righteousness. I can’t stand your trivial religious games: Monthly conferences, weekly Sabbaths, special meetings-meetings, meetings, meetings-I can’t stand one more! Meetings for this, meetings for that. I hate them! You’ve worn me out! I’m sick and tired of your religion, religion, religion, while you go right on sinning, playing church instead of praying for guidance to do what’s good, right and proper for all the people in all the land, in every way.
When you put on your next prayer-performance, I’ll be looking the other way. No matter how long or loud or often you pray, I’ll not be listening. And do you know why? Because you’ve been tearing people to pieces, and your hands are dirty. Go home and wash up. Clean up your act. Sweep your lives clean of your evil doings so I don’t have to look at them any longer. Say no to wrong. Learn to do good. Work for justice. Help the down-and-out. Stand up for the homeless. Go to bat for the defenseless, the downtrodden, the dreamers.
Oh My Goodness, OMG! Can you believe it? The chaste city has become a whore! She was once all justice, everyone living as good neighbors, And now they’re all at one another’s throats. Your money is as worthless as counterfeit. Your wine is watered down. Your leaders are turncoats who keep company with crooks. They sell themselves to the highest bidder, grab anything not nailed down and boast of the bribes that make them wealthy. But they never stand up for the homeless, never stick up for the defenseless.” Isaiah 1:10 Woe to you who stumble to your end, caught unawares.
May some day my talking will not go past you. Meanwhile I will continue to look forward to any future comments.
Best regards, as to all men of goodwill.
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August 14, 2018 at 3:44 pm
OK, Mr Leo. You can have the last word. Amen.
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October 29, 2018 at 12:58 pm
“Lascia un commento”
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October 30, 2018 at 9:31 am
Emile… On this subject in this line of posts, “Amen” is il mio ultimo commento. E tutto,
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October 30, 2018 at 12:16 pm
Joe Maher
Ti dispiacerà vederti andare. Non parlare più, non ascoltare più, non imparare più, non progredire più. Rimanendo bloccato tra le pagine non capirai e non capirai mai fino a quando non ti libererai delle catene di inclinazione soprannaturale.
Sono triste sentire la tua decisione di fare il tuo ultimo commento.
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October 30, 2018 at 1:12 pm
dear TAKEAWAY… OK, I get your point (I think — I don’t speak Italian; I rely on Italian-English translators). But the posts by “LeotheGreater,” even though they were in plain English, left me scratching my head in confusion. I wasn’t getting any sense of “discussion” from him; he simply was trying to impress me with his “thinking,” and I was far from impressed. I spend too much time spitting into the wind of folks like “Leo.” I have better things to do with my time — listen (to people who have something to say), learn (from people who know more than I do) and move forward, for example. But thanks for the thought.
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October 30, 2018 at 3:08 pm
Joe Maher:
OKay Joe, here’s the deal. Ask me anything you do not know about the bible or anything in the bible you would like to know what it means. For example I have just begun a new series of a “New Understanding Commentary” about the bible and the reason of Good and Evil starting….where else? Genesis. This New Understanding Commentary was in reply to the post preceding it.
Here’s the link:
https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/what-was-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-adam-and-eve-gained-after-the-fall/#comment-108552
Post 94
Hover over my Icon and you will see that I don’t speak Italian either.
Take care.
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October 30, 2018 at 6:37 pm
TAKEAWAY … Well. that’s an impressive claim. Do you actually know what the Bible — the whole thing — really means? There’s a gaggle of Bible scholars who would like to talk with you…
I’ll have to admit I’m a bit skeptical (if not outright suspicious) of anyone who makes such a broad and all-inclusive claim. Or (and I hope this is the case) did you mean that you have an OPINION about various thorny biblical issues, and you would be willing, if asked, to share that opinion?
I don’t have any burning questions at the moment, but if you would like to open up a discussion point, well, have a go….
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October 30, 2018 at 10:39 pm
OKay Joe I’ll accept your challenge to start the communication. Been busy fighting with the government who denied a compensation claim of a work related injury of my wife so I apologize for the 4 hour before answering you.
I do however appreciate the opportunity to communicate some of the things that I have learned and I call them revelations instead of opinions.
Let’s start with the miracles. I am of the opinion/revelation that the so called miracles never occurred but were called miracles for about three reasons, one was a miracle by magic tricks and the bible actually supports that back in the days of Moses and the Pharaoh in Exodus.
Now I have actually designed a Graphic animation to explain one miracle the feeding of the multitudes and I was planning series of miracle animations on YouTube to explain all the miracles to give knowledge and to help people out of their superstitious/supernatural shackles of foolery but the animation didn’t impress anybody enough to ask for more so I only published one. I did have a few comments calling me a blasphemer and some who said it was better than the church version.
So here is the youtube link for your viewing/listening pleasure:
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October 30, 2018 at 11:06 pm
IN the video top of the comments section you can click on “show more” to reveal lyrics of the story and follow along in case you can’t get the gist of the Avatar’s accents ….lol.
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October 30, 2018 at 11:19 pm
By the way, skepticism is healthy but if it makes you more approachable; sure, I’ll share my opinions. From Genesis to Revelation I’ve got the full package and it’s fantastic. Of course Intellectual Property and proprietary considerations so everything cannot be revealed.
If I find an Executive Producer the movie will be boycotted across the globe, make millions at the box office and release billions from the shackles of religious tyranny.
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October 31, 2018 at 6:58 am
TAKEAWAY… You and I probably agree on the “miracles” business, but since we can’t “prove” it one way or the other, any discussion we have will be preaching to the choir. Too self-referential, I think.
By-the-bye, calling your opinions “revelations” doesn’t help. Direct communications from the divine? Whoops. My skepticism (and suspicion) just went up a notch or two.
Maybe I should wait for the movie.
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October 31, 2018 at 9:37 am
Maher
“Miracles” business? not me.
I do not accept the resurrection from the dead……… period! I do accept the Resurrection from the place of the dead just as Jesus alluded to when they asked for a sign (proof) regarding the son of man . And Jesus answered and said unto him, “Blessed art thou, Takeaway: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”.
“Too self-referential” who? Me or Jesus or both?
Jesus did not accept the death of Lazarus in the tomb anymore than he accepted Jonah’s death in the Belly of Sheol; aka, during the sea storm. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection; Jesus did not.
Your own “self referential” shows self deception because an article of faith and a form of mental illness is a distinction without a difference.
Tell me this; as a Christian, do you think your understanding of “divine” is the same as Jesus’s understanding of “divine”? In my humble revelation, I submit you do not have the same understanding as Jesus……. or myself. But you’re not alone; half or more of the world’s population live by the billions in baffle belief bubbles.
Maybe you should wait for the movie, but if you wait for the movie as long as you wait for the second coming, you will not see either one I’m afraid.
Ti dispiacerà vederti andare. Non parlare più, non ascoltare più, non imparare più, non progredire più. Rimanendo bloccato tra le pagine non capirai e non capirai mai fino a quando non ti libererai delle catene di inclinazione soprannaturale.
Sono triste sentire la tua decisione di fare il tuo ultimo commento.
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October 31, 2018 at 7:40 pm
“Sometimes I think I AM too unkind;at other times,I just don’t think about it” ltg
PROFOUND REVELATION:
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
TO DESTROY a person’s life both, by and too the righteous and by and too the unrighteous, alike, use the same tactic. Whether it is a lie or the truth is incidental to the process; they strive for the common outcome. You may ask yourself why is that? How can the righteous and the unrighteous find common ground? It’s actually quite simple when you think about it. We think we are unique but we are not really and that very fact is why and how religion exploited and exploits the human race.
THE COMMON denominator that shames the soul, crucifies the body and purges the mind is sex; sex the cause and sex the effect: the cause of its own effect. Nakedness and the Cover Up.
AFTER ALL, it was Judaism with its heartfelt resentment against life, that first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw Filth on the origin, on the Essential fact of our life. And wrote the story of Genesis to support the narrative.
REALIZE THIS has been the modus operandi of the rich and powerful from the beginning. “The Story”, fantasized, practiced and chiseled in stone. The Story of Genesis was designed to play upon the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all. No one escapes it, from Judaism down to the offshoot Sects, Islam and Christianity; and, since the beginning of CE to 2018 Islam and Christianity have led the parade and have unashamedly exploited sexuality as the harbinger from which all guilt will and must come, since they all circled the same wagon of Genesis; it was the precursor that launched total control of mankind, starting from the beginning of time for all mankind, from birth to the awakening, Pubescence; AKA, you shall not eat of theTree of Knowledge; in other words, do not partake of the uncontrollable urges the awakening visits upon the human race every day in every way: before and after David and Bathsheba.
THERE IS only one way to free oneself from the influence of religion of the last 10,000 centuries, the only way to accomplish this is to release religion’s own anathema, it hates, back into religion’s court but hates to talk about and despises to discuss because the Rooster Parable belongs to them in perfect form:
PERFECT PARABLE for Halloween, the “Eve” before All Saints Day:
SCOUNDREL RELIGIOUS Soothsayers dread the advance of knowledge as vampires do the approach of daylight, scowling at the rooster heralding the fatal end of darkness and the end of the deceptions on which they feed.
RELIGION CANNOT stand communications about the scapegoat it has invented and will discourage it, condemn it and attack by all means necessary to hide the knowledge of profound revelation they have used life by sex innocence as a scapegoat to infect the minds of babies; so, hear this Profound Revelation loud and clear; the only way for the freedom fighter to escape religion’s grip, shackles and tyranny forever is to unfuck oneself from religion by the Absolution of Knowledge, reclaim one’s birthright and shed any guilt and all shame imposed by religion on the human race this past ten thousand centuries simply because you were born through active, natural procreation in the human experience. We know the deceptions religion promoted, we know they called it Church, AND we know they Covered it up.
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November 1, 2018 at 7:47 am
Wow. You’re not in my ballpark. Nice talking with you.
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November 1, 2018 at 10:55 am
A typical Christian reaction; besides which, wherein the ballpark in all these matters, there is a might chasm set between us so that no one can go from our to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from your side to us.
And though you claim the resurrection is real, you are not convinced; yet, you do not have what it takes to forsake the comfort zone of your standing in the Dead Christ Church and follow the message of the LGHTNG Christ Life without the Church which is what you need to do in the one sentence that tells you the only way to accomplish that change.
Have a nice eternity.
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November 1, 2018 at 11:00 am
You’re not a “church”; you’re a cult. And a bloody dumb one at that. Have fun on the lunatic fringe. But count me out. Between “LeotheGreater” and you, I think I’ll retire from this Quora site…. Over and out.
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November 1, 2018 at 12:04 pm
You are a “church”, like a believer; I am an Independent, like Jesus. I progress; you can not.
Ad hominems (Latin for “to the person”[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided, by instead, attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
Ad hominems is a sure fire way to lose the argument for by it you capitulate to the logic and common sense of the sound reasoning the argument puts forth. Which makes you a loser in the debate argument. Like pleading guilty without a trial, without a defense.
My argument in your ballpark therefore is called a Grand Slam Home Run.
BY THE WAY this website is not a Quora website, Quora is a Cuckoo Parasite Site: cuckoo: a largely grayish-brown (Cuculus canorus) parasite given to laying its eggs in the nests of other birds which hatch them and rear the offspring:
WordPress, on the other hand is a substantial stand alone site for your information although I know that knowledge is anathema to Christians and believers in general as light to a vampire.
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November 1, 2018 at 1:09 pm
OK. You win. Now leave me alone. Please.
By-the-bye, you may be a good friend, nice guy, and fun to be with. But the stuff you write is drivel. My “argument” is hardly ad hominem; I simply have better things to do than waste time reading your gobbledygook.
Now, do I have to explain what “over and out” means?
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November 2, 2018 at 8:46 pm
Hi Joe!
“Over and out,” are two words that contradict one another in Personal Mobile Radio (PMR) protocol. “Over” means you’re expecting a response. “Out” means you are both finished and neither party says anything further. The link below clarifies further for anyone who may be interested:
https://www.dcs2way.co.uk/news/two-way-radio-etiquette–tips-for-clear-communication.htm
Peace to all,
Dinos Constantinou
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November 3, 2018 at 4:53 am
dinoconstant:
Oh oh. You just away some knowledge. that’s sure to him feel like a fly on a toilet seat…-issed off.
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November 3, 2018 at 10:49 am
Dinoconstant (and takeaway) — y’all screwed it up. “over” means “I’m finished talking”; “out” means “the conversation is finished.” Sheesh. Why am I wasting my time here? Over and out.
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November 3, 2018 at 12:48 pm
Joe Maher
Your understanding is flawed. In the same way as the following EXAMPLE is flawed:
Well, I suppose atheism is a religion in the same way that creationism is a science or Islam is a religion of peace; in other words, when language no longer really means anything………….
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November 3, 2018 at 6:16 pm
Joe Maher:
I’ll give you this, Mr Mayer; if not bright, your are educated.
And you cannot resist this post.
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May 13, 2021 at 10:12 pm
more resources
Jewish or Roman Guard? | Theo-sophical Ruminations
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