Several months ago the Discovery Channel aired a television series featuring Stephen Hawking called Curiosity. Whereas in his book The Grand Design Hawking claimed that God is not necessary to explain the origin of the universe given the existence of physical laws such as gravity, in Curiosity he argued that God could not have created the universe because there was no time in which God could have done so:
[D]o we need a God to set it all up so a Big Bang can bang? … Our everyday experience makes us convinced that everything that happens must be caused by something that occurred earlier in time. So it’s natural for us to assume that something—perhaps God—must have caused the universe to come into existence. But when we’re talking about the universe as a whole, that isn’t necessarily so.
…
The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop [at the singularity]. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”[1]
Expressed in deductive form, Hawking’s core argument appears to be as follows:
(1) Causes must precede their effects in time
(2) There is no time prior to the beginning of time (the origin of the universe)
(3) Therefore, the universe cannot have a cause
By extension he argues:
(4) Theism requires that God be the cause of the universe
(5) The universe cannot have a cause
(6) Therefore, theism is false
If this argument is successful it would disprove the existence of a Creator God.[2] But is it? I think not. Both premises are dubious.
Before I assess the premises of Hawking’s argument, it is important to note that Hawking seems to be responding to premise 1 of the kalam cosmological argument (KCA) for God’s existence. The KCA argues as follows:
(1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause
(2) The universe began to exist
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause
While Hawking agrees that everything within the universe that begins to exist has an external cause, he does not think the universe itself could have an external cause because, he says, causal entities must precede their effects in time, and since there is no time prior to the origin of the universe, there is no opportunity for a causal entity to exert its causal influence. But is this true? Does this provide a genuine defeater to premise 1 of the KCA? To answer that question let us turn to an examination of the key premises in Hawking’s argument.
Must causes precede their effects in time?
The first premise in Hawking’s argument is that causes must precede their effects in time. Said another way, causal relationships necessarily entail temporality. If this assessment of causality is correct, then the causal principle does not apply to the question of cosmic origins because the principle came into being in tandem with the universe, thereby exempting the origin of the universe itself from its influence. I think we have good reasons, however, for rejecting this premise. While temporal priority may be a common property of causation—and even common to our experience of causation—that does not mean it is a necessary feature of causation as Hawking assumes.
1. Two types of causality
Causes can be prior to their effects in one of two ways: temporally or logically. As an example of logical causal priority, Immanuel Kant invited us to imagine a heavy ball resting on a cushion from eternity past. The physical proximity of the ball and cushion will form a concave depression (indentation) in the cushion that is coeternal with the ball and cushion. What is the cause of this concavity? Neither the ball nor the cushion enjoys temporal priority over the other (the ball never began to rest on the cushion, and the cushion never existed apart from the ball’s resting on it), so if Hawking is right, then there can be no cause of the concavity. But this is absurd. As a contingent property, the concavity of the cushion begs for a causal explanation. It is obvious that the weight of the ball resting on the cushion is the cause of the cushion’s concavity (surely the concavity of the cushion does not cause the sphericity of the ball), and yet it never began to do so. We have, then, an example of a cause that does not precede its effect in time. It precedes its effect in a different manner: logically. If the ball did not exist, the concavity of the cushion would not exist. The ball is logically prior to the concavity, though not temporally prior to it.
This demonstrates that the concept of causation outside of a temporal framework is coherent, and if causation is possible outside of a temporal framework, then the absence of time prior to the origin of the universe does not exclude the possibility that the universe also has a cause. Hawking rightly points out that the universe cannot have a temporally prior cause, but falsely concludes that this excludes the possibility of any cause whatsoever because Hawking falsely believes that there can only be one form of causation. Philosopher Alexander Pruss says it is “dubious” to suppose that causation requires temporal priority because “apart from full or partial reductions of the notion of causation to something like Humean regularity and temporal precedence, …there is [not] much reason to suppose that the cause of a temporal effect must even be in time.”[3]
2. Why is time necessary to causal relationships?
A moment’s reflection on the nature of time and causation should make it clear that causal relationships do not entail temporality. After all, does time cause anything to happen? While our experience of cause and effect surely occurs within a temporal framework, time itself is not involved in producing the effect. Time is not part of the causal equation. Time is incidental to cause and effect, not essential to it. So how could the absence of time eliminate the possibility of causal relationships? If time is not part of the causal relationship itself, then there is no reason to think causation is dependent on time. The only relationship required between cause and effect is one of explanatory priority. The cause must be explanatorily prior to the effect, but something can be explanatorily prior to an effect in a logical and/or temporal manner.
3. What about simultaneous causation?
We might even question the assumption that causes necessarily precede their effects in time even within the temporal framework of the universe. Perhaps it is better to understand some instances of cause and effect as being simultaneous with each other. As William Lane Craig points out:
Imagine C and E are the cause and the effect. If C were to vanish before the time at which E is produced, would E nevertheless come into being? Surely not! But if time is continuous, then no matter how close to E’s appearance C’s disappearance takes place, there will always be an interval of time between C’s disappearance and E’s appearance. But then why or how E came into being when it does seems utterly mysterious, for there is no cause at that moment to produce it.”[4]
Arguably all causal relationships entail some sense of simultaneity between cause and effect. If that is so, then it is perfectly rational to understand God’s causing the universe to come into being as occurring simultaneous to the universe’s coming into being. God’s causal act of creation constituted the first moment of time, being simultaneous to the effect of the universe coming into being (See “Creation was a Temporal Act”).
4. Hawking’s argument proves too much
Hawking argues that “since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything.” But wouldn’t “anything” include physical laws as well? How, then, could the law of gravity cause the universe to create itself as Hawking claims? Wouldn’t it have to exist before the universe existed in order to cause the universe to come into being? And wouldn’t it have to exert causal influence prior to the beginning of time in order to cause a temporal universe to come into being? It seems so. So why is it rational to see gravity as preexisting the origin of the universe and exerting causal influence “before” time began, but not rational to extend the same privilege to God? Hawking seems inconsistent. He will not allow for God what he allows for in the case of gravity.
Is it impossible for time to exist independent of the material universe?
Hawking’s second premise is that “there is no time prior to the beginning of time (the origin of the universe).” But he just assumes that the only kind of time possible is physical time. It is possible that in addition to physical time is another kind of time: metaphysical time. For example, we can imagine God existing prior to the universe—in the absence of matter, space, and physical time—counting down to the moment of creation in His mind: “3, 2, 1, Let there be!” Even a sequence of mental events requires the existence of time. If it is even possible to imagine counting in the absence of the material world, then it proves that it is at least possible that time could exist apart from physical time.[5] And if that is possible, then Hawking’s second premise can also be undercut.
In summary, there is ample reason to think Hawking’s first premise is false. Temporal causation is not the only kind of causation possible, and it may not even be the case that temporal causation requires temporal priority. As for his second premise, there is good reason to think that physical time is not the only kind of time possible. And if there can be time apart from physical time, then it is possible for God to have existed before the universe, and to have exerted causal influence to create the universe that was temporally prior to the universe. There is no good reason, then, to adopt Hawking’s conclusion that the universe cannot have a cause. It can, and arguments such as the kalam cosmological argument and the principle of sufficient reason give us good reason to think the universe does have a cause, and that cause is God.
See also:
- Answering the “Temporal Necessity” Objection to the Kalam Cosmological Argument
- Creation was a Temporal Act
[1]See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhd05ZVYWg&feature=player_embedded#!, 32:45—33:09 and 37:25—41:17.
[2]It’s important to note that Hawking’s argument only serves to disprove the existence of a creator God, not all gods. It is still possible that a deity of some sort exist—so long as that deity did not create the universe, and/or does not stand in any causal relationship to the material world. But Hawking thinks that the absence of time “prior” to the Big Bang not only eliminates the possibility for causal activity prior to the origin of the universe, but also the possibility of existence itself: “We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed.” Unfortunately for Hawking, it does not follow that if causality is impossible in a timeless state, that existence is also impossible. Even if causal activity requires temporality, why think that existence does as well? Causality and existence, while related, are distinct concepts. The impossibility of one does not imply the impossibility of the other. Indeed, I would argue that it is possible for causally effete entities to exist. Many scientists and philosophers think abstract objects such as logical laws and mathematical principles existed timelessly “prior” to the origin of the universe. The defining feature of abstract objects is that they are causally impotent; i.e. they do not stand in any causal relationships. If it is even possible that abstract objects exist, then it is illegitimate to assume that the impossibility of causal relations implies the impossibility of existence itself.
[3]Alexander R. Pruss, “Leibnizian Cosmological Arguments” in Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Chapter available via pdf at http://bearspace.baylor.edu/Alexander_Pruss/www/papers/LCA.html; Internet; accessed 15 July 2011.
[4]William Lane Craig, “Causation and Spacetime”; available from http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7935; Internet; accessed 17 Deceber 2010.
[5]My personal view is that God existed in a timeless state without the universe, but became temporal when He created the universe. This does not pose a problem for God’s casual relationship to the universe because God’s causal act to create the universe was simultaneous with the origin of the universe, and constituted the first moment of physical time. See Does God Know When Now Is?: Revisiting God’s Relationship to Time and Creation was a Temporal Act.
January 4, 2012 at 8:27 pm
One wonders how long the supposed singularity existed before it went bang?
One also wonders why scientific concepts of God always portray Him as material, limited, and contained within the confines of the natural universe. Isn’t that a self-defeating concept of God to begin with?
The Judaic-Christian perspective has always been 1 Kings 8:27,
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee…”
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January 4, 2012 at 10:55 pm
According to the BB theory, the singularity is not something that pre-existed the universe, and from which the universe sprang forth, but the boundary of the universe. So it literally existed for an infinitesimal amount of time. And to be honest, it’s more of a mathematical idealization than a physically possible reality. Let’s just say the universe started out infinitesimally small. 🙂
The very notion of a “scientific conception of God” is nonsense since God is an immaterial being, and scientific concepts deal with the physical.
Jason
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January 5, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Excellent post Jason. As you pointed out, Hawking’s argument assumes that gravity somehow existed before the Big Bang, yet Hawking then goes on to maintain that nothing, including God, existed before the Big Bang. What? Your observation destroys his premise and is precisely on point – Hawking’s logic is selective.
Hawking has an unstated premise that also suffers a serious flaw. It is the same flaw that so many atheists embrace: That this universe is all there is. As large as this universe is, we know, logically, that it cannot be “all there is”. If this material universe is all there is then it must be infinitely old. As one of your readers once pointed out, we cannot go back infinitely in time any more than we can go forward an infinite amount of time. Infinite cannot be reached in either direction. That being a logical certainty, then, we know, logically, that, at some point in the past, there was a “point of beginning.” If there was a point of beginning, then it had to be caused by something or someone independent of and outside this universe. What or Who caused that point of beginning? What or Who caused the universe to exist? What or Who was the first cause?
Hawking can simply state that the “Big Bang” was the “point of beginning” but he is not solving the problem. He is ignoring the basic question that even a smart 6th grader will ask: “What was before the Big Bang?” Hawking tries to answer the 6th grader’s question by claiming there was no time before the Big Bang, but Hawking is just begging the question. Oh, I know, there are some mathematical formulas that have been offered that Hawking would maintain demonstrate his contention that time started at the point of singularity, but those formulas are not in any way proved or demonstrable – nor are they logical. Those formulas and Hawking’s selective logic are only grasping at straws – futile attempts to get past the brick wall.
Maybe the greatest of all questions is “Why does anything exist?” Hawking understands that profoundity and he knows that a materialist cannot find a satisfactory answer – unless he uses the kind of selective logic that you pointed out. Any attempt to answer the question using only the logic of this universe will meet the same brick wall that Hawking is trying to ignore. Go around in all the circles one wants, and the brick wall will always be there. There must have been an absolute beginning of this material universe. It will never be logical to say “The universe has always existed”. That there was a beginning, means there must be a power that is independent and outside this universe. Something or someone outside this universe caused this universe to begin. This universe cannot be “all there is.” Randy
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January 6, 2012 at 8:52 am
As usual Jason you are on point and I love it.
I have been dealing with atheist scientists for some time now and it amazes me to see how desperate they are to get rid of God.
However, your biblically sound critical thinking is extremely important because Hawking’s kind of anti-theism and a host of other “get rid of God” philosophies have been finding their way into prime time and Hollywood for many years. That along with the same ideas being a standard part of academic training on many if not all levels constitutes an anti-God epidemic that is clearly affecting the thinking and life styles of our youth and many adults. And it does have serious consequences.
Thanks so much for your dedication.
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January 6, 2012 at 9:11 am
In December we had the honor of hosting Dr. Jerry Bergman PhD and Dr. Donald Johnson PhD at our Religion and Science Symposium. Dr. Johnson who says he came to believe in God from studing real science has an amazing DVD “Programing of Life” that can be viewed online free. You will not see this kind of science information on the Discovery Channel, the Science Channel, PBS, BBC, National Geographic or the History Channel.
All of which seen to have a strict anit-creation/ID programing policy.
But check this amazing 44 minute video out and see why they want to silence us.
http://programmingoflife.com/watch-the-video
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January 6, 2012 at 9:19 pm
As usual, love the post. The problem with this debate is congruent agreements of what is true and what is not true. In my Amateur Christian theology I look at it this way: Faith is something real to the believer, false to the unbeliever. If I can explain away the creation, faith is no longer required, and that to me just isn’t ok. Obviously there is a need for apologetics and the defense of the faith, however, these debates are largely unheard by the unbeliever as there is little to no faith in their lives. With that said, I prefer Ted Koppel’s recent statement on the BB theory, “Bangs have bangers!”
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January 7, 2012 at 4:31 am
@Randy – Spot on. I would only say that Hawking is write to contend that time began with the big bang, if by time he means physical time, since you can’t have physical time before the existence of physical reality. But as I pointed out in the article, that would not preclude the existence of a metaphysical time. Of course, I don’t believe any sort of time is necessary for God to exist in, or for God to create the universe. God didn’t need time in order to create the universe. Rather, His act of creation constituted the first moment of time.
And you are right that atheists never seem to grasp that if the universe had a finite beginning, it requires something non-physical beyond itself to cause it to exist. In a way he does understand that since he appeals to the law of gravity, which is not physical. But of course the law of gravity logically depends on the existence of physical stuff since physical laws only describe physical things, so the law of gravity cannot pre-exist physical reality itself.
@Danzil. Thank you. And I agree, Hawking’s ideas are affecting people because they reason that a smart person like him must know what he’s talking about. And yet, when you look at his ideas, it’s total nonsense. He is dealing with philosophical matters, all the while pretending to be doing science. He may be a great scientist, but he’s a poor philosopher.
I’ll have to check out that link.
@Josh, are you saying that if we have evidence for God, then faith is no longer necessary? If so, I would disagree. It presupposes that reasons to believe X eliminates the ability to believe X. But quite the opposite is true. Biblical faith is “trust,” and when we speak of trust we always presuppose that there are reasons to trust. Evidence is not antithetical to faith, but integral to faith. I would contend that the more reasons one has to believe, the more they are able to believe. There are a host of Biblical passages in support of this notion of faith. But perhaps when you said “If I can explain away the creation, faith is no longer required, and that to me just isn’t ok” you were speaking from the atheist’s point of view.
Nevertheless, your larger point is true about unbelievers not getting it. But I don’t think it is because they lack faith, but because they do not want to believe. Their problem is volitional in nature, not intellectual.
Jason
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January 7, 2012 at 11:08 am
No. Not saying evidence negates the need for faith. Rather in my opinion, there are a few items within scripture that require faith to be true. Creation being one of them. The development of the earth and all the things within the earth is beyond comprehension. There is scientific evidence of how the creation was fulfilled and that strengthens my faith in what I do not know for sure; how the rest of it was done. I find strength in knowing that God did it. I place my faith in such a notion. But if there ever came a time on this side of heaven I figured out exactly how God did it, that, in my opinion, would reduce the need for faith. Faith being evidence of things not seen, or things unknown.
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January 8, 2012 at 1:52 am
Josh,
Thanks for clarifying. I’m still not sure I agree, however. I think the scientific evidence for the beginning of the universe is powerful evidence that God created the universe. How exactly He did it may never be known (whether it started as an infinitesimal speck as in the Big Bang theory, or something else), but even if we came to know exactly how God did it, I don’t see why that would eliminate the need for faith. Through our study of nature we have come to learn all sorts of things about God’s creation, but rather than negating faith, it inspires faith. Again, faith is not “eaten up” by evidence. Rather, it is strengthened by evidence.
Jason
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January 8, 2012 at 9:38 am
Jason and Josh,
Only a couple of years ago, I took faith for granted. I considered it a gift from God and I believed I had been given that gift, but I did not understand at all what the Bible means by faith. I considered faith and belief two sides of the same coin. And, I thought that the more I studied apologetics, the stronger would become my faith. I now believe that faith is a separate concept than belief.
Jason, you have studied Immanuel Kant. Consider his classic “Critique of Pure Reason.” In that work, he demonstrates, powerfully in my opinion, that we humans can know only that which we experience with our 5 senses. We sometimes build upon experiences and from that we shuffle those experiences and come up with rather new ideas, but those ideas are still firmly based upon our experiences. The easiest way to understand this concept is to consider the color red. A person blind from birth can never understand, not even vaguely, what we mean when we use the word red. We can talk about a red apple, and he might associate red with sweetness. Or we can talk about a red convertible and he might associate red with wind in his face. Never, though, will he understand what we mean because he has never experienced red. Kant developed this idea extensively and I think he conclusively demonstrated the principle.
In my opinion, faith is something we have deep inside our soul or spirit. It is not something any human on this side of the curtain has yet experienced with any of his senses. Faith is in our soul or maybe in our spirit and it cannot be experienced with senses. Our senses tell us only about the material world. Just as the blind man does not know the color red, we do not know faith. (Paul described the effects of faith, he did not give us a definition.) Faith cannot yet be understood, because it is not something anyone has yet experienced with his senses.
I am a strong believer in Christianity and the Bible. My belief is based upon extensive study of apologetics and Bible study. I am certain, at least in my own mind, that the truth of each is overwhelmingly proved by the evidence. It is just patently false when men such as Hawking claim there is no evidence for God or that the Bible is just a collection of stories. However, I also believe there are uneducated Christians who’s conviction and Christian walk is much stronger than my own. Those Christians often have a great deal more faith than me. Their strong faith, of which we can see the effects, is quite independent from their knowledge.
Having said the above, I think I agree with both of you. I believe that study will increase our belief, but it cannot, ultimately, increase our faith. Faith, I think, is increased when God increases it and I think that is related to our genuine attempts to follow His commands and Christ’s example.
Randy
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January 8, 2012 at 10:30 am
I think Randy may have been much more eloquent and expressive of my view. To “know” something it has to be experienced within the senses. Faith cannot be known as it is “senseless”. (That’ll preach! LOL) To make sense of it, means faith is no longer needed. With that said, that which we can sense bolsters my faith in that which I do not know.
I would also like to submit some study from James Sire, Professor at Denver Seminary. He wrote a book a few years ago called “Naming the Elephant” It is a development of Christian World-views. It is a really good read. However, at the beginning he tells a story of a boy who asks his dad “What holds up the earth?” His dad starts a string of answers. “A mouse holds up the world.” “Then what holds up the mouse?” “A Cat” “A Horse”, and finally when the son has asked a few times the father ends with the largest animal he can think of, “An elephant holds up the bear!”.
The father obviously has created a huge problem, just as BB advocate create: What created that infinitesimal speck? That is where faith comes in. If we settle on the BB it does not negate creation. It requires an answer to “What holds up the elephant!”
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January 9, 2012 at 8:22 am
Josh seems to be having trouble with two things, one, expressing his point and the other forgetting or at least not taking into account God’s omniscience. I could be wrong but for instance, when he says:
“there are a few items within scripture that require faith to be true”
I think you mean “require faith to accept” not “to be true”, since truth is truth regardless of faith.
When he says:
“But if there ever came a time on this side of heaven I figured out exactly how God did it, that in my opinion, would reduce the need for faith.”
I think he is referring to that aspect of faith that in the words of Hebrews is “the evidence of things not seen”. That is, taking things by faith when you can’t “see” or “understand” them fully.
However, when he said: “But if there ever came a time on this side of heaven I figured out exactly how God did it”, I think he is forgetting that such knowledge would perhaps require a level of knowledge that only God has. If I am correct, he would have to be God to know the details of how God actually did it.
This in my opinion is one of the main problems with evolutionists who mandate methodological naturalism as the only means of determining truth on science matters. (But that is another matter).
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January 9, 2012 at 9:06 am
When Randy uses Immanuel Kant as a standard for understanding Biblical Faith that concerns me
.
Immanuel Kant’s ideas cannot be the standard by which to understand the Bible, the Bible is the standard by which we examine Immanuel Kant’s idea.
When he says:
“In my opinion, faith is something we have deep inside our soul or spirit. It is not something any human on this side of the curtain has yet experienced with any of his senses.”
How does that line up with Jesus’ words to the centurion in Matthew 8:10
“When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”
Or to the women of Canaan in Matthew 15:28
“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt.”
Or how do you understand Acts 6:8
“And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”
When Randy says:
“However, I also believe there are uneducated Christians who’s conviction and Christian walk is much stronger than my own. Those Christians often have a great deal more faith than me. Their strong faith, of which we can see the effects, is quite independent from their knowledge.”
I am concerned that he seems to think he knows that their level of faith was independent of their knowledge. How does he determine their level of faith in relation to their level of knowledge?
Is it not possible that they have learned something about having faith in God though lacking other biblical knowledge that he may have missed or failed to apply in his personal life that accounts for their greater faith?
I have personally heard testimony of uneducated Christians giving greater explanations of Bible texts than Bible degreed Christians. This had more to do with their relationship with God than their Academic training.
Am I missing something on this?
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January 9, 2012 at 10:49 am
Concerning Josh’s comment:
“I would also like to submit some study from James Sire, Professor at Denver Seminary. He wrote a book a few years ago called “Naming the Elephant” It is a development of Christian World-views”
“To make sense of it, means faith is no longer needed.”
This seems to be the result of someone’s incorrect interpretation of what biblical faith is.
While I like you Jason, love reading books and gaining new insights and exploring various views, (though I have limited myself to certain kinds of material), I try to be very careful how the work of others influence my thinking.
It is very easy to allow the thinking of others to become the authority and the Bible to be nothing more than a reference tool. But that is a costly mistake.
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January 9, 2012 at 5:01 pm
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January 10, 2012 at 8:21 pm
Perhaps Josh is moving toward the Romans 8:24-25 explanation regarding hope (which of course relates directly to faith, vis a vis Hebrews 11:1)???
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I assume him to be saying that, if there was ever some unseen aspect of God suddenly seen and realized, one would move away from faith, i.e. having to trust that that unseen aspect was a reality without experiential knowledge, toward perfectly knowing that aspect was true, thus not needing to “trust” in it, as it were, as true.
For example, I can tell you all my eyes are blue and you can all take me at my word and believe/trust me. This is faith (at least the kind I think Josh is talking about). However, apart from meeting me personally, you can never prove what you cannot see, ergo, you don’t know if my eyes are blue or not. But should we ever meet, and my eye color is proven to be blue, suddenly you no longer have to believe apart from knowledge. Now you know for sure, and that knowledge establishes your prior held faith as true. Faith, in this sense, has graduated, if you will, from mere belief to proven knowledge.
Am I helping, Josh? Hope so.
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January 11, 2012 at 3:43 am
Aaron, Josh and Jason, I appreciate your edifying and thought provoking comments.
Danzil: What I said was that one cannot touch, taste, hear, smell or see faith. You were concerned with that.
Let me make a few more comments:
First, I do place the Bible first. I have for more than 35 years read 3 chapters of Scripture each and every morning which means I have read the Bible more than 35 times. In contrast, I took one college course on Imanuel Kant. I do think a mention of Kant on a site about Theo-sophical Ruminations is appropriate. I do not consider Kant a “standard” by which to measure Scripture, nor would I consider the scholars you mentioned, Jerry Bergman and Donald Johnson, to be standards by which to measure Scripture. I will add, though, that I think Bergman and Johnson are great scholars and well worth reading. I am very acquainted with the Institute for Creation Research and have read extensively about Creationism. I have attended seminars and met and corresponded with some of the leaders in that movement including Henry Morris and Dune Gish. Furthermore, my mention of Immanuel Kant was a pivot from an earlier comment by Jason who before cited Kant on this web site.
Second: You asked how I would line up my opinions with Mat. 8:10; Mat. 15:28; and Acts 6:8. Well, my simple answer is that those cites line up precisely with what I was saying.
Last: One of your interests appears to center around the topic of Creationism. I have read and listened to the greatest Creationist scholars and one thing that always impressed me was the way those dedicated Christians handled the insults that were constantly thrown their way. When they were insulted, they never insulted in return. They never returned evil for evil. I would suggest you follow their examples and be more careful with your responses to those with whom you disagree. “Being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” Ephesians 4:3
Randy
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January 11, 2012 at 8:48 am
Randy, thanks for your response and correction of my misunderstanding of your intentions and points.
It seems that I have unintentionally given you the wrong impression of my intentions by my comments. So let me say at the outset that no insult was intended and if taken you have my honest apology. My comments were sincere observations (albeit if in part in error).
On your first point, perhaps I should have said that from your comments you “seem” to place Kant’s view as the standard above the biblical view.
You say that you do place the Bible first and I accept your statement and stand corrected.
On your second point you said:
“Second: You asked how I would line up my opinions with Mat. 8:10; Mat. 15:28; and Acts 6:8. Well, my simple answer is that those cites line up precisely with what I was saying.”
Perhaps I should have included a few more of your comments to clarify my question. My question was as a result of your following comments as well as the one I used in my original question:
“Jason, you have studied Immanuel Kant. Consider his classic “Critique of Pure Reason.” In that work, he demonstrates, powerfully in my opinion, that we humans can know only that which we experience with our 5 senses.”
“In my opinion, faith is something we have deep inside our soul or spirit. It is not something any human on this side of the curtain has yet experienced with any of his senses. Faith is in our soul or maybe in our spirit and it cannot be experienced with senses. Our senses tell us only about the material world. Just as the blind man does not know the color red, we do not know faith.”
If we cannot “know” faith yet it is clear that we can have faith and that we are accountable for our “little” faith and for showing “no” faith, I was only trying to understand how you understood the scriptures I cited. If you feel they line up precisely with what you were saying I accept that you believe that is so, I only ask for clarity so I can understand how, since I am unable to see it now. It is quite possible that I am missing something and I am willing to be corrected on this.
As to your last point, I have already apologized for any unintended offence and I mean that sincerely.
I guess my understanding that this thread was for throwing around ideas and having them scrutinized may have made me carless of the feelings of those posting. I will try to use greater caution when posting. However, you may be assured that I will not take offence at any comments that you make to me and that I do appreciate you pointing out my offence to you and thereby allowing me to correct my fault.
This apology goes to all viewing this thread whose posts I have commented on.
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January 12, 2012 at 1:28 pm
It’s great that you address these issues and provide an intelligent response Jason. Far too many in the church seem to think that such matters are irrelevant to the church when in fact our failure to appropriately address them gives the enemy the appearance of credibility while at the same time discourages believers who are not prepared to respond because they have not been taught sufficiently.
I did not see the Discovery Channel “Curiosity” program but I am quite aware of their anti-Christianity programing so I am not surprised.
While I have not read Stephen Hawking’s new book “the grand Design” John Lennox in his small book “God and Stephen Hawking Whose Design is it anyway?” has provided a wonderful insight into the flaws of Hawking’s thinking in the book on the origins issue.
Hawking seems to suddenly be on a mission to rid science and the world of God and I wound why? I am curious as to who is encouraging him in that direction of attacking God as he has of late.
I can’t help thinking that someone in the New Atheists crusade group has convinced him to use his celebrity statue to help them with their crusade against God. I also suspect that they are counting on public sympathy for his physical condition to shield him from accountability for his hostility towards God and Christianity, and allow him to trash God’s existence with little literary retribution from the Christian community.
While I do indeed sympathize with his physical condition I do not feel that he should be spared warning of the consequence of rejecting God nor spared arebuke for his arrogance or ignorance expressed in writing or lectures. If he is bold enough to speak it and write it, he should be able to take the rebuke without the messenger being accused of meanness or disrespect.
I will comment on the John Lennox book in my next post.
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January 12, 2012 at 2:20 pm
John Lennox has done the believers a service in publishing his 2010 book “GOD and Stephen Hawkins Whose Design Is It Anyway?” In it, Lennox keenly links the new atheist movement’s frustration and frantic activity to the secularization hypothesis and Marx and Weber’s presumed inevitable death of God failure. While Lennox is unwilling to connect the new atheist campaign with Stephen Hawking’s latest book as I am, he nevertheless does a commendable job pointing out the illogical and contradictory content of Hawking’s book which ventures into philosophy in order to “scientifically” expel God while at the same time proclaiming Philosophy is dead.
I think Lennox is to kind in his analysis of Hawking. I don’t believe Hawking is operating in ignorance of his violation of logic or the ramifications of his eulogizing philosophy. It is quite possible that these atheist scientist plan to rewrite the rules of logic and philosophy as they have tried to do for defining science. These men are far too intelligent to miss the illogic of their arguments; therefore I believe they are intentionally chipping away at the very foundations of logic and philosophy with the goal of reinterpreting them to accommodate their illogical faith in atheism and evolution.
Another important observation by Lennox is the fact that Hawking ignores the Hebrew and earlier view of God in history in order to dismiss the false versions of deities to get science on the throne.
I just started reading the book as I commute to and from work on the train but so far it seems to be time well spent.
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January 12, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Danzil,
I appreciate your response. No harm done.
Regarding my views about faith, I don’t have a lot more to add. It is a very difficult subject to study, and I have not studied it to any great degree. My opinion is that faith is a different concept than belief. We believe things because we experience with our senses and we believe our senses. We use our senses, for instance, to prove that there really is a God. And I do believe that the reality of the existence of God is a proven fact. It is proven by a number of facts, which I a sure you have studied when you studied Creationism. These are facts that we can see, touch, hear, taste and smell. It is faith, though, not belief, that tells us that our senses are truthful. And, it is faith that tells us that God is good. When a person says he has faith in God, he doesn’t mean that he believes there is a God, he usually means that he knows God is good.
I believe that faith is a gift from God. As you and I both indicated, that gift is probably related to our relationship with God. Thus, even though salvation is a gift we cannot earn, faith may be one that we can work for. Again, all of this is just rumination, none of this is concrete in my thinking.
Good comments above about the church not providing enough direction when it comes to attacks against Christianity.
Randy
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January 13, 2012 at 8:42 am
Thanks Randy, it is refreshing to talk with believers who are actually taking the time to explore Biblical issues and gain a better understanding of what the Bible says.
As you I am still striving to gain a more concrete understanding on some importnat Biblical topics and I am far from having arrived. But the journey is quite a blessing.
Please pray for me as I pray for you that our God will grant us greater understanding in these matters that we in turn will be better able to edify and encourage others both within and out side the body of Jesus Christ in the time we have here.
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January 13, 2012 at 10:11 am
I find the response to Hawking wholly unsatisfying. As to Kant’s ball on a cushion, it would be undeniable that the ball did not create the indent. Rather, the indent always was and has no cause. Much as if I created a ceramic cushion with an indent and a ceramic ball that fits it perfectly – the ball did not create the indent. Furthermore, no such cushion and ball exists. It’s no more helpful than asking if a toy were made by Santa’s elves, what would it prove about the existence of elves. Hawking is correct.
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January 14, 2012 at 3:32 am
[…] Stephen Hawking: God Could not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So- Jason Dulle provides an analysis of Hawking’s argument against creation. This is an excellent post and I highly recommend it. […]
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January 14, 2012 at 5:30 am
This interests me.I’ve just come across Theodore Drange’s exposition of this naturalist argument.
Anyway, science has the say on this. God did it adds no ultimate explanation.And per Reichenbach’s argument from Existence, as Existence is all, no transcendence exists and thus no God exists!
Per Angeleis intinite regress argument, cause,event and time presuppose previouis ones. This accords with what most astro-physicists maintain as the Big Bang was just a transformation of pre-existent reality
The quantum fields, the void with all that activity as Craig notes, is eternal in accordance with the law of conservation.One would beg the question to argue that He could affect that law,and indeed He couldn’t be the Primary Cause,because, as with morality per the Euthyphro, He’s depend on the natural causes!
Peradventure, J.W., you might get Drange to further comment on that argument!
Peradventure,others would like to see you in debate with atheologians1
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January 14, 2012 at 5:57 am
Arthur, that comports with Angeles’s argument. His and Reichenbach’s appear in his ” The Problem of God: a Short Introducton to the Philosopny of Religion,” yet a comprehensive work.
Even more comprehensive, are Graham Robert Oppy’s ” Arguments for Gods” and Howard Sobel’s ” Lgic and Theism.” Michael Martin’s tomes are also comphrehensive.
These are the philosophical horsemen, heavy-htitting atheologians!
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January 14, 2012 at 6:01 am
And thanks J.W. for this blog! I’m going to reblog this excellent article at many of my blogs.
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January 14, 2012 at 6:06 am
[…] viaStephen Hawking: God Could not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So « The…. […]
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January 14, 2012 at 6:07 am
[…] viaStephen Hawking: God Could not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So « The…. […]
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January 14, 2012 at 6:08 am
[…] viaStephen Hawking: God Could not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So « The…. […]
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January 14, 2012 at 11:16 am
Arthur, are you saying this because you wish it to be true or because you have carefully thought through it and it is perfectly logical to you?
How about interacting directly with Jason’s original commentary and explaining to us where you feel Jason has failed to adequately respond to Hawking.
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February 6, 2012 at 9:06 am
Griggs, i see you are at it again. You have avoided responding to refuted points that you have been making, you have not resonded to questions asked you and yet you are still posting comments about other peoples work without providing brief statements to clarify your point which can then be examined and responded to.
I am curious as to your purpose here as it seems that it is not to engage in meaningful dialogue on ideas.
Why haven’t you responded to my questions and comments to your posts?
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February 10, 2012 at 3:22 am
Arthur,
Why do you find it unsatisfying? Counter-arguments to my arguments would be appreciated.
As for Kant’s cushion, you can’t just change the through experiment to make it fit your liking. In the experiment, the pillow is soft, and the concavity of the pillow is formed by the weight of the ball. Appealing to a ceramic version that comes pre-dented does not answer the implications of the thought experiment, but rather introduces a wholly different thought experiment with wholly different conclusions. While I would agree with you that the concavity in the kind of cushion you have asked us to envision may not need a cause, that is not the kind of cushion we are discussing. In the kind of cushion we are discussing, the concavity in the pillow does require a cause, and that cause cannot be a temporally prior cause. Since the only form of causation possible for this phenomenon is a cause that is logically prior to the effect, it establishes the legitimacy of logically prior causes. As such, it is invalid to argue as Hawking has that since there is no time before the Big Bang, there could be no cause to the Big Bang because such an argument completely ignores logically prior causes.
You pointed out that “no such cushion and ball exists.” Obviously. It is a thought experiment, but thought experiments are valuable for revealing what is possible and what is not. This is standard exercise in modal logic.
Jason
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March 12, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Again, silence from the opposing camp. It seems that they really just want to talk to people that they can verbally beat up on and intimidate. Which is why it is so refreshing to have this kind of blog online. Thanks Jason!
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April 13, 2012 at 4:50 am
100 years from now, humans will be much smarter and will finally be able to prove once and for all that there is a natural explanation for the existence of the universe and there is no magical God. We are not smart enough yet to see it.
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April 13, 2012 at 10:52 am
Kevin,
Your faith in science is greater than my faith in God. At least I have reasons to believe God is the creator, whereas you must rely on blind faith and hope. The fact of the matter is that your faith is misplaced. As Alexander Vilenkin recently made clear, there is no scientific evidence for an eternal universe. All the evidence points to the beginning of material reality, whether it be our universe or the multiverse. Science can never explain how something can come into being from absolutely nothing. Why? Because there are no physics of non-being. It is intellectually incredible to maintain that material reality just popped into existence from nothing and by nothing/no one. If there was truly nothing, then there could never be somethign because nothingness has no properties, and hence no potentiality to ever become something. If there was ever nothing, then there would be nothing still. But there is something, even though we know at one point there was no material reality. How can this be? It can be if there is something that existed prior to material reality that is not itself material, and that has the power to bring material reality into being from literally nothing. That is God. There are good reasons to affirm the existence of God, and no good reason to think that science can ever explain existence. Indeed, there is good reason to think it can’t (not just that it hasn’t).
Jason
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April 13, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Good comments, Jason.
To me, it is incredible that very smart people cannot see that there really is a God. Science, Philosophy, and everything in between proves beyond any reasonable doubt, way beyond reasonable doubt, that there is a creator. Yet these very smart people insist we we Christians have no evidence – only wishful thinking – only unreasonable hope. And I am astounded when I hear them say that. Why can they not see the truth? The evidence, the overwhelming proof that God exists fills the universe.
A Christian (Catholic) on another blog has a byline that made me smile yesterday: ” Unbelief is Unbelievable ”
Randy
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April 14, 2012 at 4:44 am
My friends, you are not too smart, aren’t you? A simple comparasion of how universe created himself out from nothing, is just like can be obtained an infinite numbers, from zero. Second of all, if god is immaterial and minds are materials, how can god think, create, etc? If good and bad, beautiful and ugly, etc, exist only in this plane of reality because it is created by our minds, how can god decide what is good or wrong? Based on what premise did he take decisions, listen to prayers, etc if all this duality are just a point of view, depending only on the observer? And why he fulfils only some of our wishes? Think a little at what happened in history: our ancestors thought that is a god for everything and they are responsable for what is happen with the son,the moon, etc, yet it was all wrong. now, we repeat history, only that we think that is a single god, instead of a lots of gods. If science does not have an certain and secure answer now, this doesn’t mean that they will not find the absolut truth in the future. Look at how things evolves; try to understand more than what you see and break your mental barriers. You have a brain, use it!
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April 14, 2012 at 6:59 am
SonGokul,
If your argument is that all Christians are dumb, you will lose that argument. There are and were many brilliant Christians. Isaac Newton, for instance. Can you not tell that Jason is very bright? If you want to compare IQ’s with me, you will almost certainly lose. I score one out of 100,000 on the Mensa Test, plus equally high on two other IQ tests. Sorry if that seems immodest – however that so many brilliant people are atheists has nothing at all to do with their intelligence.
Randy
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April 15, 2012 at 1:43 am
Randy,
Maybe you do have that IQ, maybe you don’t; i don’t know and i don’t care. I have no reason to believe you. There are many type of intelligence and my argument is not what you said. your deduction lack (or maybe you did that intentionally). Logic has almost nothing to do with your iq; it depends more on what you know… and what you understand from what you know.Some of my arguments are what i have said in my previous post. If you think that science has no proof, then what should we said about you (all that “believers”)? God have nothing to do with all that misery you drag him into. From all the stupid things you say, you made from God a human. It’s more like a genius, who should fulfill our wishes if we pray or if we ask him to do so (especially if we kiss him ass. What the fuck, you think it is a president, or something?) You should be ashamed.
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April 15, 2012 at 9:51 am
SonGokul,
You are right, I reacted to your first sentence and didn’t answer your post.
If I understand you correctly, your first point is that Hawking’s pivot around the point of singularity of the big bang is similar to a simple comparison of the mathematical concepts of infinity and zero. I think you are right about that.
Hawking uses Quantum Physics to claim that all matter was condensed to a point of “singularity” which he and others claim is a point in time at which all matter in our universe occupied zero space. (Now, on its face that is quite absurd, but not the point of this thread.) Since the classical Newtonian definition of time is that time is a function of matter moving through space, and since Hawking claims there was a time when all the matter in the universe was in zero space, that would mean that time had not yet begun – matter can’t move through space if it is infinitely condensed to a point that it occupies no space in which to move.
. Keep in mind what Hawking has done. He first defines time using classical Newtonian Physics then he leaps to the realm of Quantum Physics to claim that all matter once occupied a point of zero space. Therefore, concludes Hawking, time did not exist before the big bang. He then goes on to further conclude that since time didn’t exist, then there was no time for God to create anything. He then translates all that to English by saying “so when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense.” Well, Hawking can use a lot of confusing language to make his deductions, but I believe he has simply given us a book length example of circular reasoning.
Second, you asked how it could be that an immaterial God could think or create or know the difference between good and bad or beautiful and ugly. Well, that is an excellent question. Christian philosophers have tried to provide an answer and in summary the answer is that God is Spirit. The Spirit is something that actually exists and it is far superior and more complex than our material bodies. Humans also have spirits and our individual spirit is housed inside our material body. We know very little about what a spirit is other than our Scriptures clearly teach the spiritual realm is real. The spiritual realm can observe the material world, so God can observe the material universe, although, most Christians believe that humans cannot directly perceive the spiritual realm. (Some Christians might disagree.)
However, to put the shoe on the other foot, the materialist is really the one who has the biggest problem with good vs. bad and beautiful vs. ugly. If you think deeply about that, you might agree with Jason and many others that the materialist has no basis upon which to make any distinctions between good and bad or beautiful and ugly.
I disagree with your contention that believing in One God is a repeat of history – that it is the same as the ancients’ beliefs in multiple gods. The Bible has a lot to say about that. It was a serious mistake made by the Israelites from the time of Solomon until the first exile and it is the same mistake as made by multiple other nations – the Aztec Indians, the Greeks, etc. Christians believe there is only One God. He really exists.
It is very difficult to attempt any kind of complete answers to your questions because they are very deep questions. And yes, I realize that your questions were not really meant to be questions – they are meant to be statements. My point, though, is that there are well thought out answers that Christian intellectuals have provided. My overall point is that there are Christians who are just as smart and just as educated as Hawking who disagree with him. If you want more thorough answers, though, you will have to do a great deal of research and study.
As an aside, may I ask you what is your native tongue? Is it Finnish or one of the other languages around the Baltic Sea?
Randy
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April 15, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Nope, I’m romanian and Romania is a Christian country. Yet i’m pretty sure that this conception of God is all wrong. After all, everyone is free to believe what they want, but if you are really sure that that God exists, then you should remain with it (with that God) and all this topics should not exists; we, the “atheists”, skeptic, etc. will see after we will die that we was wrong.
But it seems that you are not that sure after all and you feel threatened by what science might discover (maybe you are not aware of that, but all that argue starts from subconscious when our beliefs are threatened. Is a natural reaction of our brain). Until the final truth will be revealed, all that books (especially bible) remains only books.
Sorry if I can’t be that blind and not let me directed by some fairytales. If I am wrong, then I will support the consequences (whatever that means).
Just because i read a lot leads me to these beliefs (plus many things that i observed directly and with other’s help). I think that the most pertinent (and realist) spiritual leader was Buddha. If i had something good and practical thing to learn, was from him.
A meditation session makes more than 1000 prayers, kissing icons or give money (for nothing) and spend (meaning losing) a lot of time in church.
In my relations ship with god, i don’t need an intermediate!
And concernind Stephen Hawking, it understands and thinks more than we (from monkey onwards) do. I think we should let him aside. But it’s pretty hard to respect other’s decisions and beliefs… plus that, in our misery, we dare to invoke God. A lot of talk and almost no REALLY good deeds or thoughts.
A bunch of hypocrites!
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May 29, 2012 at 2:04 pm
SonGokul, since the others I have been trying to dialoguewith here seems to have abandoned me an I have some free time now, I would like to engage you in your line of thought starting on post #38. I am on my way home now but I will address some of your comments and I hope you will reply. You should know that I am not unsure about my convictions and I am quite willing to field your questions and arguments. Talk to you soon.
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June 7, 2012 at 11:04 am
.People think worshiping God is tough thing but when i really understood the bible i saw it was easy people think you need to follow the ten commandments to be able to worship God but does not the case.God die for our sins and the ten commandments.thats why there is a old testament and the new testament.God die for the old testament and now we just have to believe and should be able to tell the difference between right and wrong.Did you think you have study science to the highest degree you can say .all this God gave everybody his /her will but dont use your wil, wrongly.God could have killed you the day you wrote this but bcs of your will he left .God sent all through your elemenatry state ,middle school,high school and college .But you just earned this few degree and little knowledge you think you can convince people thank you.Am just a normal kid who have been through times of n ot believing God anymore but i came back on to my feet whena group of people saved me .may God richhly bless you and changed your mind i will like to have your email so we can chat.byee
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June 7, 2012 at 11:12 am
so you believe in smaller gods not the God who created you go back to sleep and think how the world cam e to existence if there was no God .sorry for you
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June 30, 2012 at 7:18 am
Ehy, Existence perforce exists eternally! And no, it still does not require God the Sustainer and so forth. Billy Lane and Rick Swinburne’s personal explanation reflects reduced animism and like full animism, ti’s superstitious!
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July 29, 2012 at 2:40 pm
What Big Banged To Produce The Universe
From : http://universe-life.com/2011/12/10/eotoe-embarrassingly-obvious-theory-of-everything/
A commonsensible conjecture is that Universe Contraction is initiated following the Big-Bang event, as released moving gravitons (energy) start reconverting to mass (gravity) and eventually returning to black holes, steadily leading to the re-formation of The Universe Singularity, simultaneously with the inflation and expansion, i.e. that universal expansion and contraction are going on simultaneously.
Conjectured implications are that the Universe is a product of A Single Universal Black Hole with an extremely brief singularity of ALL the gravitons of the universe, which is feasible and possible and mandated because gravitation is a very weak force due to the small size of the gravitons, the primal mass-energy particles of the universe.
This implies also that when all the mass of the presently expanding universe is consumed by the present black holes, expansion will cease and be replaced with empansion back to THE Single Universal Black Hole.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century) http://universe-life.com/
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July 29, 2012 at 11:14 pm
What Big Banged To Produce The Universe
From : http://universe-life.com/2011/12/10/eotoe-embarrassingly-obvious-theory-of-everything/
A commonsensible conjecture is that Universe Contraction is initiated following the Big-Bang event, as released moving gravitons (energy) start reconverting to mass (gravity) and eventually returning to black holes, steadily leading to the re-formation of The Universe Singularity, simultaneously with the inflation and expansion, i.e. that universal expansion and contraction are going on simultaneously.
Conjectured implications are that the Universe is a product of A Single Universal Black Hole with an extremely brief singularity of ALL the gravitons of the universe, which is feasible and possible and mandated because gravitation is a very weak force due to the small size of the gravitons, the primal mass-energy particles of the universe.
This implies also that when all the mass of the presently expanding universe is consumed by the present black holes, expansion will cease and be replaced with empansion back to THE Single Universal Black Hole.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
tags: big bang, mass energy, gravity, inflation expansion, singularity, black hole
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July 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm
The real query is how did Nature form the Bang from herself? I find that quantum fluctuations answers that, and the quanta are eternal in line with the description-law- of conservation, and please don’t beg the question of whence come the descriptions!
Adding God as the ultimate answer is just God did it, that rather uninformative tautology.
Aquinas, with his superfluity argument unwittingly,
reveals the real reason for God- assuagement and superstition! He rightly states:” It is moreover superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles but produced by many. But it seems that everything in the world can be accounted for by one principle, which is nature.,,,Hence, there is no reason to suppose God exists.”
In the name of that superfluity has come so much strife and so many murders, even more than the rare, restricted Roman persecutions!
Yet, he goes ahead with his failed five ways- suggestions- to try to overcome the presumption of naturalism,which is akin to the presumption of innocence as Antony Garrard Newton Flew notes in his better days!
[1] Newton’s law of motion overcomes Aquinas’ Prime Mover argument.
[2] His Primary Cause- Explanation- argument that a series of hierarchical, efficient causes cannot overcome the superfluity argument: Aquinas eviscerates himself! He begs the question of that primary cause as Howard Jordan Soble notes in ” Theism and Logic,” by stating that should one take away the primary one, one takes away all the intermediate ones. Why then add an unnecessary redundancy,despite Alister Earl McGrath?
[3] He begs the question of the Necessary Being in contrasting the contingent with the necessary in his argument from contingency as Malcolm Diamond notes in his book the philosophy of religion.
[4]He reifies the continuum amongst the degrees in his ontological perfection argument. In ” Primary Philosophy,” Michael Scriven leaves it to his readers of how do debunk this silly argument.
[5] And his form of arguments to design has the archer God put the bull’s eye around the arrows after it lands! Per Carneades’ atelic argument, he begs the question of directed outcomes! And he goes against science as the Flew-Mayr-Lamberth the teleonomic argument notes.
Begged questions,superfluity arguments, arguments from personal incredulity and from ignorance, faith and postulation cannot instantiate God!
Leibniz uses the argument from personal incredulity to query why does anything exist rather than nothing, that Edward Feser rightly notes, focuses on the something rather than the nothing, but again the quanta belie that pseudo-question with its pseudo-answer!
William lane Craig and Richard Swinburne proffer that we need a personal explanation, which I deem a superstitious one, Craig prattles that as more than one outcome comes forth, it would take Him to decide which comes forth!
The the teleonomic argument argues that as no divine intent exists, to proffer one is to use implicitly the new Omphalos argument that why, as John Hick notes, He makes it ambiguous for us to discern Him -his epistemic distance argument- so as not to overcome our free wills!
No divine intent comes forth!
So, then without that intent, He becomes as the spirits of full animism nothing and thus theism is just reduced animism and just as superstitious!
Theists unwittingly with their unsubstantiated arguments from happiness-purpose and from angst affirm our naturalist arguments as to why they believe: assuagement in the face of death and so, the need for that superfluity!
Alexander Smoltczyk, German journalist, argues that God is neither a principle, nor an entity nor a person, but then how could He than instantiate Himself as such without being an entity or some kind of person!
So, Aquinas acknowledges the obscurantism,yet rushes to judgment nevertheless with it!
Lamberth’s the ignostic-Ockham illuminates that needless redundancy!
Fellow naturalists, what more do you proffer to this discussion of the superfluity?
By the way, I came upon the superfluity argument yesterday in reading one of Peter Inwagen’s on-line papers.He does grant us naturalists the justified use of the superfluity with amended premises, but by denying that God can be an hypothesis, he mires himself in the superciliousness of theism!
So, Fr. Copleston proffers superstition on the basis of his personal credulity whilst Lord Russell can only reply that Existence just is, which stops no further natural investigations but whence those investigations proceed!
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September 2, 2012 at 7:28 am
All The Mass Of The Universe Formed At The Pre-Big-Bang Singularity
The universe is a two-poles entity, an all-mass and an all-energy poles.
The elementary particle of the universe is the graviton. The gravitons are compacted into the universal inert singularity mass only for the smallest fraction of a second, when all the gravitons of the universe are compacted together, with zero distance between all of them. This state is mandated by their small size and by their hence weak force.
The big bang is the shattering of the short-lived singularity mass into fragments that later became galactic clusters. This is inflation. The shattering is the start of movement of the shatters i.e. the start of reconversion of mass into energy, which is mass in motion. This reconversion proceeds at a constant rate since the big bang since the resolution of gravitons, their release from their shatters-clusters, proceeds at constant rate due to their weak specific force due to their small size.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
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October 29, 2012 at 4:06 am
wtf? does it really matter?? when we die, there’s either an afterlife or no afterlife. I was dead for millions of years before I was born and i saw it as no inconvienience to me. If there is an afterlife, thats brilliant. If theres a God, thats wonderful. However if there’s not, the world will go on. life will go on. and if when we die there is no God to take us into a heavenly paradise, were not gonna care because were dead. Im not saying there is a God. However, im also not arguing that there isnt one. All im saying is that enjoy life while you have it, you’ll find about what happens afterwards when you’ve crossed over.
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October 29, 2012 at 7:59 am
Georgia,
I think the possibility of God’s existence and an afterlife require more thought and energy than you are willing to give these topics. A world created by God is a very different kind of a world than one without God. If God created the world, and He created us, then the world and we have a purpose. Our moral actions make an eternal difference. Indeed, if God exists, how you live this life could determine what kind of afterlife you experience. So I don’t think the best approach to these questions is to say ‘Ignore them in this life and we’ll see what’s true later.’ We need to devote our best thinking to these issues now.
Jason
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December 3, 2012 at 6:59 am
Very interesting post.
I was browsing the web investigating epistemology out of curiosity.
For some reason, your post came up high in search results and I was intrigued because I’ve red Mr. Hawking’s book and I was left unconvinced with his reasoning.
I’ve given some thought on existence or lack thereof of God and concluded that it is a fool’s errand to try to prove his nonexistence. God as he is defined by modern theology could not be disproven, and Hawking haven’t moved me with his reasoning: for what is time to a timeless entity?
I however do not believe there is a God, let alone that the books from the ancient history cary in them His word.
My reasoning is: Since the God is undisprovable but not unprovable I should require some proof of His existence, in absence of such proof I should provisionally assume He does not exists.
In fact my position is even stronger than stated, for although I’m quite unsure about the existence of Creator I’m as sure as one can reasonably be about such things that the said books are not divinely inspired.
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December 11, 2012 at 4:43 pm
kalifumestokalifa,
Actually, one can disprove the existence of a particular God (like the God of theism) by showing that there is something inherently contradictory about the very concept of God, similar to a square circle. Atheists have tried to argue against God’s existence on this basis in the past, but without success. But at least it’s possible in principle to disprove God’s existence.
As for your reasoning, I find it flawed. Why think that in the absence of evidence for God one should assume He does not exist? If there is no evidence either for or against His existence, then one should be neutral with respect to the question. The only reason to move to the “probably not exist” end of the spectrum is if there was evidence that God does not exist. Agnosticism, not atheism, is the default position.
Which books do you think are not inspired? Why? What sort of tests have you set up to determine whether or not a book(s) is divinely inspired?
Jason
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December 12, 2012 at 9:06 am
In fact, the logical premise is “no”. That’s why a prosecutor must prove that a crime was committed and then who committed that crime before he can make the arrest. You can’t just make judgments, and act in consequence, based only on some fairy tales who can prove … nothing.
Since there in no concrete and irrefutable prof that god exists, we must assume that he doesn’t (especially when there is a lot of profs that demonstrates the opposites).
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December 12, 2012 at 2:08 pm
SonGokul,
If the absence of any evidence for or against the existence of some X, we can’t presume it doesn’t exist anymore than someone else can presume it does exist. Only if there is evidence to support either X or -X can we presume X or -X. In the absence of evidence the default position is agnosticism. This is basic logic.
And we don’t need irrefutable proof. We only need sufficient evidence. Don’t raise the epistemic bar higher for God than for any other entity.
Jason
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December 12, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Actually what I’ve wrote was: “God as he is defined by modern theology could not be dis-proven”, particular gods can be dis-proven.
As for my reasoning it’s just a rehash of Ocam’s razor.
My contention is if we have an undisprovable but provable hypothesis it is a reasonable stance to assume it wrong until otherwise indicated.
You said: “Agnosticism, not atheism, is the default position.”
And you are right, however, just because one is agnostic about something does not mean one should not have any opinion about something. A somewhat unfair example would be finding a rock in a meadow. You don’t know it was not put there by some supernatural entity but it’s not unreasonable to assume it isn’t.
And again proving some book isn’t inspired by God is foolish how would you go about that? How for instance can I prove Alice in Wonderland was not inspired by God: cannot God if he exists as proposed influence someones thoughts, give him/her an inspiration?
Proving a book is wrong on some factual claim does not prove it’s not divinely inspired: God could have intentionally made it wrong for he works in mysterious ways.
What I do know however is: Anyone can claim he is divinely inspired, every such claim should be dealt with healthy skepticism until otherwise indicated.
As for particular books the largest monotheist religion believe are divinely inspired I find them self-contradictory, full of dubious claims, and dubious morals and most of all easily explainable by our insight in human psyche, mainly the tendency to attribute agency especially when lacking concrete evidence.
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December 12, 2012 at 11:47 pm
Think how your life will be without gravitational force even for a minute. These are even proven miracles that everything is happening according to gods will. True that if you are trying to prove something you also have your own theories. But that doesn’t mean you are right.
Look at the entire galaxy. The sun giving us light during day time, and the moon during the night with perfect timing. What will happen if the moon comes more closer to earth? and the sun is just few inches away from earth?
How perfect could our entire galaxy and earth be? Without a creator how can everything move in a sequence with a proper timing?
Times are perfect:
Distance are perfect as well as energy.
Science and politicians are the real killers of man kind giving false information and brainwash people to promote their own stupid propaganda. Some humans act like they are GODS too is the real problem with our world.
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December 13, 2012 at 12:00 am
If you are alone, in middle of an ocean who would you ask for help? When those massive big waves are moving on top of your head who would you ask for help?
These are the times your true inner self comes out, when you are weak and hopeless, and this is the only time most of you would believe and think about the word “GOD”
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December 13, 2012 at 12:55 am
The Moon was closer to Earth, it’s getting slowly but surely away from it :-). Besides: of course we live in a part of the universe hospitable to life otherwise we would not be here to wonder why that is so..
To go form that to even deistic view of world is not warranted let alone to go from that to specific religious claims of divine authorship of certain books.
As for the who would you ask for help argument… I find it unconvincing at the least. If you find your self in the middle of the ocean too far away from the land to even attempt swimming; and praying and hoping for divine intervention helps you keep your spirits up allowing you to not panic, despair than by all means do so: maybe you last a bit longer thus increasing your chances of being found. Placebo is a powerful thing and should not be discounted if it helps you to pray, to believe I’m not here to dissuade you in any way or form. I’m not proselytizing, I have no agenda, I believe a religion can be and often is a force for good.The religion of my people helped us not be assimilated into the Otoman Empire despite being under their rule for centuries, I’m just cursed with analytical mind.
Peace.
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December 14, 2012 at 6:57 am
kalifumestokalifa : Do you think the world is perfect? If so, how can the world be so perfect without a creator? See how balance it is.. why not people and animals live in other planets then?
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December 14, 2012 at 11:08 am
I don’t think the world is perfect, and we don’t know there is no life on other planets, it’s a Huuuge universe out there.
But I will grant we and the other denizens of this planet of ours are very well adopted to it, and this very fact was pretty good theological argument before we learnt about the evolution and it’s mechanisms.
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December 14, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Kalif,
How do you think God is defined in modern theology? And if he is defined, then that means He is assigned specific attributes, and those attributes are testable for logical consistency, etc. So why could such a God not be disproven, at least in principle?
You said, “just because one is agnostic about something does not mean one should not have any opinion about something.” But if you have an opinion, then you are not agnostic. This is a matter of definition. You can’t claim to be neutral while making a knowledge claim.
How can we test whether a book is inspired by God? Easily. If God is the author, and God has all knowledge, then we would expect for the book to be without error. If we find errors in it, then we conclude that God must not have inspired it. To say God would intentionally make an error because he works in mysterious ways is meaningless. I don’t even see how that is a valid response. Mystery cannot make a perfect being commit an error.
Jason
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December 15, 2012 at 7:02 am
I’ll try to answer your questions point by point.
1. You could with little trouble propose a hypothesis that is unfalsifiable. First and foremost you make sure it makes no testable predictions and what theologians do is just that. God is timeless and spaceless, eternal all powerful creator of the universe, etc. There is nothing one can do to disprove that. Yet, God if it exists can easily prove him self.
2. You CAN have an opinion about something and not know about that at the same time, we do this all the time in day to day life.It’s how we form opinions about people we interact with, that is how we make business decisions in dynamic stochastic situations etc.
And just to make sure we are communicating using mutually understandable terms (I only learnt English in school and never had the chance to speak it in my daily life) Agnostic = not knowing, or thinking it’s unknowable.
3. Why would you expect the book inspired by God to be without errors? Could not God be writing in metaphor, or better yet intentionally, letting some errors in in order to achieve something?
Could not have God given a true inspiration to original author and the text being changed in subsequent generations, especially if we’re talking about ancient books?
What if only parts of those books were divinely inspired, the rest being just literature and philosophy of the people who wrote it?
Proving that something in Bible is not true does not prove there is no God, it does not even prove that this very same God haven’t inspired these books and that there’s no wisdom to be gained if red the right way.
What I think about these books having carefully red them is that they are a compelling early literature, showing no real sign of knowledge that would be unavailable to it’s authors in any earthly way. And besides it’s so full of really questionable morality that if it were the true word of the Creator of Universe that would make me very uncomfortable with my creator.
Peace.
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December 16, 2012 at 2:48 am
One believes through faith, I feel for Hawking 30 years of work and at the end of that,all he has faith in his opinion just like anyone else, who turns back wise men and makes their knowledge foolish Isiah 44 : 25
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December 16, 2012 at 3:01 am
How silly is the hypothysis, God could not exist before time, you try to put God in the same dimension as the big bang, that, to the best of my knowledge, all faiths obliviuosly state that he is not, Hawking himself talks about the possibility if not probability of multiple dimensions.
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January 6, 2013 at 3:39 pm
1. “Immanuel Kant invited us to imagine a heavy ball resting on a cushion from eternity past.” To get to an example of something which defies temporal causality we have to imagine something without cause? BUT, you are using this to prove that everything has a cause? That seems problematic!
2. If the William Lane Craig simultaneity argument is correct then it would be impossible to tell which is the cause and which the effect. This has interesting possibilities.
Thanks for the thought-provoking blog,
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January 9, 2013 at 3:15 pm
Kalif,
I’ll respond in kind to your points:
1. You ignored my point. I never denied that it would be possible to come up with an unfalsifiable idea of God. But we are talking about the God of theism here, and I am arguing that the properties of this God can be tested for logical coherence. If they are not logically coherent, then the theistic God could be disproven.
Even if one could not disprove that God has the properties of timelessness, spacelessness, and immateriality, one could show that it is impossible for a being to possess these attributes simultaneously because there is some inherent conflict between them. And in so doing, one would actually be able to demonstrate that there is no God possessing those properties. So there is a way of testing the idea of God, and thus, in principle, of disproving God’s existence. Just because one is not able to show any logical inconsistency in God’s purported properties does not mean that God is unfalsifiable. Indeed, it may just mean that He really exists!
2. Yes, we are defining agnostic in the same way. If agnostic means “not knowing” what the truth is about some X, then how can one have an opinion about the truth of X? Opinions require knowledge.
Perhaps the disconnect is due to a different definition of “knowing.” I suspect that you think certainty is a prerequisite of knowledge, and then reason that if one is not certain of the truth of X, that one is agnostic about it. If so, you are using a flawed definition/standard of knowledge. Knowledge is justified, true, belief. One does not need to be certain of a proposition to be able to have knowledge of it. One merely needs justification for their belief/opinion concerning that proposition.
3. I would expect a book authored by God to be without error because God is perfect and has all knowledge. Such a being is incapable of a mistake.
Speaking in metaphor is not a mistake. It’s just a different way of conveying truth.
God couldn’t “let errors in” as if it were an accident. He would have to intentionally say things that are false, in which case God is lying, which is impossible for a being of moral perfection.
Partial inspiration is possible, but the test would remain the same. The only thing that would differ is the results. If a book was partially inspired, we would expect for certain parts to pass the test and others to fail it.
The Bible doesn’t display knowledge unavailable to the authors in an earthly way? What about knowledge that the universe began to exist from nothing a finite time ago? No one else in antiquity claimed that. And science did not discover this until 100 years ago. And what about knowledge of the future? Humans do not have the ability to see the future.
Jason
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January 9, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Ian,
Faith is not a way of knowing some X, but a disposition we have after we come to know X. Biblical faith is essentially trust. Once I come to know God exists, then I put my faith/trust in Him.
Your point about making God out to be something subject to physical laws is an important one, and a mistake that many atheists and agnostics make. In this case, however, Hawking is not actually doing that. He is speaking of what is logically possible rather than physically possible. The problem is that his logic is wrong.
Jason
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January 9, 2013 at 3:33 pm
Neil,
1. It’s not an example of something that “defies temporal causality,” but rather an example demonstrating that something can be caused in ways unrelated to temporality. Not all causation has to be temporal in nature. So just because the universe cannot have a temporally prior cause does not mean it cannot be caused.
2. Not necessarily. In the temporal world we would know which is the cause and which is the effect because entities endure through time. If entity X begins to exist at time t1 and endures through time t2, t3, and t4 before causing entity Y at time t4, and then entity Y endures through time t5, t6, etc., we know X is the cause of Y because X endured before Y endured.
Your point may apply to eternal entities, however, since the entities involved exist have always existed, and one does not endure for a different period of time than the other (earlier than, later than). And yet, even then it seems that we would still be able to identify which is the cause and which is the effect. After all, we are dealing with logical causation. One would have to know what caused what to know that a logical causal relationship exists between the two. In the ball and cushion example, while the effect is simultaneous to the cause, it’s obvious that the ball is the cause of the indentation in the pillow rather than vice-versa.
Jason
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January 16, 2013 at 11:50 am
i agree with stephan even i want to include 1 more point that when any of 2 planet were collides that create a new planet called earth now.god wasnt created the world.this is the simple way to find how the earth was created.even if how our galaxy made.simple when 2 galaxy collide with each other it formed our galaxy.
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January 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm
Ashish,
Not only does your comment have nothing to do with this post, but it has no bearing on the question of God’s existence. God is not invoked to explain how our planet formed, but to explain a host of other issues including:
1. The origin of all physical reality
2. The origin of contingent reality
3. The fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
4. The ontological foundation of moral values
5. The ontological foundation of logic
Jason
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March 8, 2013 at 9:18 pm
The ”universe” never began,”god” couldn’t have created it because ”god” IS the ”universe”… ”atoms” and ”galaxies” are actually the same thing..there should be an equasion for the speeds of the different levels ,but …concepts are just means to communicate,the ”universe” is the means to ”understand”
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March 8, 2013 at 9:30 pm
sadly the confusing title ”scientists” translates to ”people using only certain concepts,mostly math” …thats the world for ya 😉 enjoy the ”age of satan”
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March 22, 2013 at 10:58 pm
Wait.. If Hawking’s theory that God could not have created the universe because time did not exist prior to the “big bang” is true, then wouldn’t that defeat the possibility that the “big bang” came into existence?
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March 23, 2013 at 12:52 pm
Gino,
No, because BB cosmology does not postulate any cause that brought the universe into being. They simply start with the fact that the universe came into being. It came into being with time, not before time.
Jason
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March 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm
Jason,
Because time, cause, and effect did not exist prior to the Big Bang then I find it impossible for the Big Bang to come into existence in the first place.
Before the Big Bang there was no oxygen or any other type of matter that can cause an explosion such as the Big Bang. Thereby once again defeating the possibility of the Big Bang. There are very little facts to be able to come into conclusion that the Big Bang ever existed.
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March 23, 2013 at 3:11 pm
If I can understand this at only 16 then 70 year-old Stephen Hawking should be able to understand this furthermore
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March 23, 2013 at 5:00 pm
The BB wasn’t an explosion. It was simply the coming into being of matter space and time. When it came into being, however, it began rapidly expanding.
What the atheist is forced to say is that there was simply no cause for the universe. It just popped into being out of absolutely nothing with absolutely no cause. Of course, that’s absurd. I don’t doubt that the BB happened. We have good reason to believe it did. But we also have good reason to believe that it DID have a cause: God’s creative act.
Jason
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March 24, 2013 at 4:43 pm
I agree however I am not fully convinced that the BB happened. But then again, who cares? Would it change our lives at all to know for sure if it happened or not? No it would not. What matters is that we are here now. Just in case the way we live does determine our faith, we should make the best of our lives and live it as best as possible according to the Bible once again, just in case.
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April 2, 2013 at 10:39 am
oh wow, how wrong Hawkins is. there was no time before big bang, so therefor God would not have time to create. God lives outside of time. He is internal. For someone to believe that truth, they need to have faith. You always need someone or something to create something. just like moving an object. you need to apply force to have some motion. Lets say we have a leaf on the ground in a motionless state. you can look at it as before the big bang. now lets say the leaf begins to move. would you say that it just moved on its own? or there is just a simple explanation that there was some force acting on it that made it move? that force is called the “wind”.
same with this big bang. I believe God created everything. doesnt necessarily mean that it just all popped into place. Although I believe and know he can easily do it. From what I realized and learned is that God likes for things to have a process even thought everything is under his control. How can you say that something magnificent as the universe, just happened to be.
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April 3, 2013 at 7:30 am
“Your faith in science is greater than my faith in God. At least I have reasons to believe God is the creator, whereas you must rely on blind faith and hope”
I hope the above is a joke…
There are no reasons to believe in a god, it is purely hope.
What good does believing in him bring? A family of 5 recently committed suicide in the expectation that they would meet ‘god’. That included two children who were stuck in that situation due to the way they were brought up.
Of course they didn’t meet god, when you die your energy is released back into the Earth, no afterlife – nothing.
Science is fact, religion is just a comforting hope.
And why do each religion have different gods, I honestly cannot believe it is still debated in this day and age.
Science is based on facts, no one can believe the Earth is 6,000 years old or so because evolution and carbon dating has proved the Earth is roughly 4.6 billion years old.
Why would god wait til this point for us to exist?
Why have dinosaurs only to make them extinct by a huge floating rock?
Why would he/it whatever you want to call it make our time on Earth limited due to the Sun expanding and one day engulfing the planet?
If you happen to believe god is omnipotent and omniscient, research the double slit experiment… when an observer is watching the experiment, the particles behave in a different way to when there is no observer… if god is everywhere surely they would always be acting as if an observer was watching?
Anyway, I don’t want to cause an argument, just a debate based on relevant reasoning.
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April 3, 2013 at 7:48 am
“I agree however I am not fully convinced that the BB happened. But then again, who cares? Would it change our lives at all to know for sure if it happened or not? No it would not. What matters is that we are here now. Just in case the way we live does determine our faith, we should make the best of our lives and live it as best as possible according to the Bible once again, just in case.”
Gino, you say you’re only 16? Please do not have that naive outlook on life…
Firstly, there is solid proof there was a big bang. You can’t suggest it didn’t happen because regardless of how it started there was a big bang.
Secondly, you say who cares? Everyone should care… how could you not want to know how the universe came to be. When people just say ‘who cares, I’m here now and that’s all that counts’ is such a naive and silly thing to say. Also before you criticise Hawking, think about the research he has done over the years compared to your thought of ‘I am not fully convinced that the BB happened’ – Research it and look it up rather than come to your own opinion and accuse him and scientists alike of being wrong.
Lastly, you say ‘live life according to the bible just in case’. In case of what? Are you suggesting if the bible was not around you would be a bad person? That is often a reason why people apply faith to their lives because they believe without it there is no reason to not go around killing etc. What’s wrong with just knowing the facts and being a nice person!?
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May 19, 2013 at 5:11 pm
Hawkings is a miserable old quack spending the rest of his days sharing his misery with the world. He has been proven wring more than any physicist working today, it’s a mystery to me why he still gets airtime on major networks. It must be because his luciferian friends own those networks and they like the brain dead garbage he dispells to the masses.
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June 1, 2013 at 9:20 pm
I myself am a well struggling Christian I believe there is a “God” but not one who created everything I believe in this that the big bang happened and thus GOd came into existence hence making space but Earth was barren because life can’t just up and run itself I do believe he created man i do believe there is a place where people burn in hell and live in heaven to do whatever it is that they do up there I’m not entirely sold its good cause you cant have good without bad the whole idea of good is based on the lack of suffering or will we all just become heartless mindless robots when we reach heaven i doubt that i could be happy in a place that doesnt allow you to do anything but be “holy” i mean what is heaven just sit in a white room for eternity talking with relatives do you see your wife and kids? are you allowed to have physical interaction with them? it is for eternity i doubt anyone can go for eternity just being bored the whole premise of heaven is that theres no suffering right with no suffering comes no joy. and also who created God even if you say Metaphysical time it doesnt explain the consciousness required to create an all powerful being christian science doesnt explain it nor does physical science magic doesnt even explain it things just dont “poof” into existence sorry to be skeptical i really want to try to believe but if i could get a reasonable answer as to how he’s everything and nothing and somehow managed to poof into vacuum of space without dying or anything and essentially creating himself idk a quote from Angels and Demons applies very much to me “Faith is a gift I have yet to receive”
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June 5, 2013 at 2:56 am
Zane… You kind of contradicted yourself there by saying you believe was god created yet life cannot just ‘poof’ into existence.
Regardless, god was not created out of the big bang, the big bang created spacetime and over time matter as know it formed and over billions of years stars were formed due to gravity.
I find it hard to believe people still believe in god. I understand it might be a comfort thing but it is just such a random idea. When science can tell us the basics of the universe there is no need for a god.
You are right to be sceptical about what you believe, as you say, it’s effectively a ridiculous idea to believe god just came into being. Furthermore you can argue what created god etc etc etc.
As for why there is anything at all instead of nothing – there is effectively no such thing as nothing. Even if you imagine the closest thing to nothing possible, this ‘thing’ would still have laws allowing nothing to exist within it. And if this ‘nothing’ has such laws then it is effectively something. Such a strange thought yet perhaps the reason there is a universe at all.
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June 8, 2013 at 9:27 am
Jason, I stumbled upon this page while doing some research and I take issue with your arguments which are demonstrably false.
1. You attempt to disprove Hawking’s thesis by introducing “Logical Causality” which makes use of an ad hoc “cushion and ball” example. The main flaw in your argument is that a cushion in its NATURAL STATE does not have a concave depression. Kant’s example is no different (and no less absurd) than pieces of a broken bottle floating around space for eternity. Such a thing is impossible in reality without there being a sequence of events (bound by time) in which there was initially a whole bottle that was then subsequently broken. A depressed cushion cannot arise in reality without the prior event of a heavy ball being placed on it. You cannot arbitrarily start your clock with the ball already on the cushion. By observing the current state of something, coupled with knowledge about its natural state, we can infer “Temporal Causality” in all cases, unless you produce a better example that can actually exist in reality.
Secondly, space-time is finite. The ball and cushion example makes use of infinite time and cannot be extrapolated to a principle based on finite time.
2. To argue that time is not essential to “causal relationships” is the same as arguing that the three physical dimensions (length, breadth and height) are not essential to the bouncing of a ball. Time is the fourth dimension (hence the “space-time continuum”) and I do not see how events (causal relationships) can occur minus time, just like a ball cannot bounce – let alone exist – unless there are (at least) 3 dimensions. Any causal relationship between two events necessarily implies time and space.
3. If two events occur simultaneously (ie at EXACTLY the same time), it is impossible to prove that either one caused the other. You are producing a circular argument by starting with the unproven assumption that one of the two simultaneous events caused the other and then you use that very assumption to prove that the events are causally related.
4. The Laws of Physics arise as a direct consequence of existence itself. They cannot “exist” independently of the universe. If there was no universe, there would be no laws, no atoms, no energy, no time, nothing…. You make a Strawman argument by stating that “the law of gravity cause[d] the universe to create itself”. To my knowledge, Hawking has never made any such claim. Hawking’s actual position is that the laws of Physics and even Causality itself break down at the Singularity that produced the Big Bang. If all the laws of Physics break down just prior to the Big Bang, how can they cause anything, since they are inapplicable? If Causality itself is also inapplicable, then the Singularity and the Big Bang require no cause.
You then introduce the thoroughly dubious concept of “metaphysical time”. Time by definition cannot exist outside the universe and your concept is no more credible than claims that there are intelligent invisible aliens on earth. You cannot have it both ways, attempting to use Physics to disprove Hawking but not using the same standard to test your own propositions.
The first Axiom in Philosophy is that “Existence Exists” upon which ALL knowledge rests and every statement implicitly assumes. If there is no space, time, energy or matter, then NOTHING exists, not even Physical Laws and by inference, even God himself cannot exist. Non-existence is the opposite of Existence and the Law of Contradiction does not permit both to be true at the same time. The very idea of God counting down to creation in his mind already implies existence because you cannot have a mind outside existence. If you claim that God “exists” in some non-physical dimension in which thoughts and actions that affect the physical world are possible, then you are in the realm of Mysticism, because you can never prove it.
As a final point, I have heard of a version of the multiverse theory that postulates that there are Big Bangs happening all the time, some leading to a universe like ours and others disappearing, a little akin to bubbles in boiling water. Perhaps one can argue that the Singularities that produce those Big Bangs are caused by some entity (God). Or you can take the view that the “water” that produces those Singularities already exists and is self-contained, making God irrelevant to the process.
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July 14, 2013 at 9:01 pm
My humble question to everyone
If god z dere why do people suffer everywhere?
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July 16, 2013 at 4:53 am
There is god the big bang theroy was made by god the hole unvirse was created by god even sicence cannot prove that god dosent exist and if your saying that the big bang theory made the unvrise then who made us and people are suffring because of there crimes.
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July 19, 2013 at 3:54 am
Let me ask you this then Isayas… Who created God?
Science doesn’t need to prove God doesn’t exist, that’s such an absurd statement to make, that is like me saying to you ‘prove this invisible cake in my hand doesn’t exist’. Science allows us to use facts to come to logical conclusions about how we came to be here. The bible (whichever one you believe in) has changed many times over the years to allow for scientific facts. It will continue to change until the scope of what is preached in the bible becomes very small.
There will be a day when almost no one on the planet believes in religion, I am sure of this. Sadly it won’t be for a countless number of days.
I read this statement the other which could not be more spot on:
‘If people were not taught religion and if it was suggested as an idea today, the person who suggested it would be declared a lunatic. Religion only exists today because of tradition.’
And in answer to your question… no one made us, life stemmed from the conditions on Earth allowing us to do so. From here single-celled organisms evolved allowing us to eventually (over millions and millions of years) become an intelligent species. This is also known as evolution.
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August 1, 2013 at 4:46 pm
This has to be wrong and this is why: time means that materialistic things age, right? So before the big bang something must have been aging to create this bang. If we were to say a particle made the big bang then it had to go through a series of aging to conclude with an explosion. We, as humans have only put time into a perspective and it will always be beyond our capabilities to distinguish time before time, because time itself doesn’t age, but the materialistic things do, a particle for example….
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August 2, 2013 at 11:55 am
The following argument assumes Einstein was right about time. It also assumes that causality (Hen, Egg, etc.) is a real concept: not an illusion like time. If it is not real, then the words “First”; “Before” and “Beginning” have no meaning in the greater scheme of things. Anyway, to have Cause and Effect, it takes two or more interacting entities to do it: and we assume that the Prime Mover was unique and alone.
Assuming that there was something in the “Beginning” before the Big Bang,
it must have always existed. To always exist, according to Einstein, it could not be subject to time. Yet he says time is generated by energy and change.
If the first thing was an immortal unique singularity with no internal components, with what could it react and create energy, mass and space?
If it had no energy, what fueled the Big Bang? And even if it had stored energy, what component triggered the Big Bang? It would be like a grenade with no percussion cap or explosive.
It seems to me that an immortal Prime Mover cannot create and a creating Mover cannot be immortal.
The only way out of this is either to deny Einstein; assume that a dynamic expanding/collapsing universe always existed or to dispense with all currently accepted scientific laws about its origin. The problem there, of course, is that the Prime Mover would become unscientific by definition.
Thinking about it is going to give you the mother of all headaches. No wonder religion thinks that Faith is better than overdosing on aspirin.
However mindless and chaotic the universe may have been in the beginning, it created intelligence (or what we fondly call intelligence) within in it with us. If it can do so now, why not earlier?
Regarding Hawking: obviously he has the best brain hardware. But even the best computer needs to get good data past its firewall. The human firewall is emotion and preconceptions. As the computer geeks say: garbage in-garbage out. He assumes, as a matter of faith, that we apes, after descending from the trees and being experts on bananas, now miraculously occupy the Great High Ground of Perception and Reason. The soul is now available as an App?
Scientific empiricism itself may be flawed. Humans and other animals are granted a range of perception and reason deemed appropriate to their needs by Evolution. We usually never see intrinsic causes, only effects processed by our local physical laws and interpreted by our brains. There may laws, perspectives and priorities above these. I’ve illustrated this with a cartoon. It depicts four ants reacting to a can of bug spray. The first says “Duh – wassup?”. The second says “Oh no – greenfly TB!”. The third says “Spareth thy people, O Lord!”. The last says “Dang – bloody Fred Smith again!”. So it’s all really a parochial point of view in the greater scheme of things and we will never know otherwise.
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August 16, 2013 at 1:24 am
On The Essence And Matrix Of The Universe-Life
Natural Selection/ Self Replication/ Gravity
Self-replication is the ultimate mode of natural selection is the essence and drive and purpose of the universe. Period.
The pre-Big-Bang singularity is the ultimate self-replication of the cycling mass-energy universe. Period.
Earth’s RNA nucleotides life is just one of the myriad modes of self-replication.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
http://universe-life.com/2012/11/14/701/
-The 20yrs development, and comprehensive data-based scientism worldview, in a succinct format.
-The Genome is a base organism evolved, and continuously modified, by the genes of its higher organism as their functional template.
– Everything in the universe derives from mass-energy duality, from the universe cycle between the two poles all-mass-all energy.
– The Origin Of Gravitons is the ONLY thing unknown-unexplained in the Scientism Universe.
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August 29, 2013 at 3:26 pm
As usual a creationist gets it wrong. Nothing is not nothing as laymen terms percieve it in physics. The developments over the last few years and tests have revealed that nothing has a weight. Weight = Gravity.
God is a spiritual being? Do you have evidence? Didn’t think so.
Your god would need to be made of something maybe not physical matter but something in order to have an intelligence at all therefore god did not create everything therefore he is not a god.
Creationism is idiotic at best.
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August 29, 2013 at 6:06 pm
The, above, following three sentences are the shortest data-based TOE…seriously:
– Self-replication is the ultimate mode of natural selection is the essence and drive and purpose of the universe. Period.
– The pre-Big-Bang singularity is the ultimate self-replication of the cycling mass-energy universe. Period. (the SR mother-format…)
– Earth’s RNA nucleotides life is just one of the myriad modes of self-replication.
Respectfully,
DH
see:
http://universe-life.com/2013/08/27/tryptophan-to-serotonin-to-swarm-to-neural-system/
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August 30, 2013 at 7:05 am
Hawking is just another Einstein worshiper who has altered physics into metaphysics. Hence, his metaphysical statements masquerading as science. His research into black holes void of observational and experimental data.
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August 30, 2013 at 7:48 am
Actually you can see black holes in the same way you can see tornadoes.
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September 5, 2013 at 2:32 pm
There are many theories about the Big Bang. Here nasha-vselennaia.ru/?p=10056 presents a new hypothesis on the origin of the universe.
For a distant observer, the Big Bang is a result of the collisions in the universe of all galaxies – substances with the speed of light – (C).
For an observer, who is in the middle of the action – Big Bang in the center of the black hole is a result of the collisions in the universe of all galaxies – substances with the speed of 0 km/s.
Because of the great gravity, processes in the center of the black hole slow down in a split second before the Big Bang and the time stretches. On this basis, an observer in the center of the black hole sees that the collision rate between galaxies is 0 km/s.
An observer, who is far from the middle of the action – far from the center of the black hole sees that all galaxies collide with the speed of light – (C).
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September 10, 2013 at 9:52 am
My response to all of this is we simply just don’t know who or what created the universe. All we can know is theories. The wisest people are the ones who admit to knowing not even a fraction of what there is to know about our beautiful universe.
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September 10, 2013 at 10:21 am
Well done article! I found it interesting, but let me play devil’s advocate here… Our knowledge of God (not *a* god, but God) comes from the Christian Old and New Testaments as well as the Jewish Torah. Now, suppose we had been born and raised in a country dominated by some other religion, such as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, China, India or any number of predominantly non-Christian religion. Would we still believe that God (Jehovah) created the universe, or would we believe wholeheartedly that it was the work of Allah, Vishnu or any of the others? What if, hypothetically, you had been born in the middle of Africa 200 years ago and not only was none of the above, but had never even HEARD of God (Jehovah), Jesus, any bibles or any religious doctrine at all?
Sure, you might still have some notion that a great power created everything – most civilizations do, although they seldom agree – but it would NOT be the same supreme being that you currently believe in. So, you have to ask yourself the question: How likely is MY information to be true, since being born into this belief was pure chance – unless you want to entertain the unpleasant ideas that God chose to have you born into the wrong belief system… to be condemned from birth.
Even if we just say, generically, that *a* god created the universe. Why set up all these natural laws that even He has to obey? Why go through all the round-about trouble of setting up all the variables so that, under their own rules, the universe as we know it came into being? More and more of the veil that used to cover the unknown is being uncovered and revealing an endlessly fascinating, but UNDERSTANDABLE, world. We may not YET have a definitive for every and all answers, but that doesn’t mean that those answers will NEVER come.
If you’re really and truly interested in what is actually true, science is the best tool humans have to get those answers because it does not depend on where or how or by whom you were raised. As someone once said, “The Bible tells you how to go to heaven. Science tells you how the heavens go.”
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October 22, 2013 at 7:54 am
“Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah “…This is Hadits Qudsy.
All physics laws obey time.
Time can be perceived by mind; but not by senses.
Our senses only perceives ‘creation’ around us; which actually just vacuum.
Which is nothing but Him… Single in Existence..
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October 22, 2013 at 9:05 am
Update comprehension of the universe…
.
The Nobel Prize Committee Is Wrong. There is Definitely NO Higgs Particle. Gravitons are the elementary particles of the universe.
Origin and nature of “may be gravitational waves” are continuously released gravitons since the last big-bang as singularity mass reconverts to energy.
============================
On The Essence And Matrix Of The Universe-Life
The following three sentences are the shortest data-based TOE. Seriously. Very seriously.
The clearer the shorter
Natural Selection to Self-Replication is Gravity
– Self-replication is the ultimate mode of natural selection is the essence and drive and purpose of the universe. Period.
– The pre-Big-Bang singularity is the ultimate self-replication (SR) of the cycling mass-energy universe. Period. (mother of universal SR mode…)
– Earth’s RNA nucleotides life is just one of the myriad modes of self-replication.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
http://universe-life.com/2012/11/14/701/
-The 20yrs development, and comprehensive data-based scientism worldview, in a succinct format.
-The Genome is a base organism evolved, and continuously modified, by the genes of its higher organism as their functional template.
– Everything in the universe derives from mass-energy duality, from the universe cycle between its two poles all-mass/all-energy.
– The Origin Of Gravitons is the ONLY thing unknown-unexplained in the Scientism Universe.
PS: Spoon feeding
The universe is a (circa 20 hillion yrs?) cyclic affair between all-mass and all-energy poles. NATURAL SELECTION of a mass format mandates energy intake because since the big-bang the resolved mass is reconverting at a constant rate from inert mass to energy, to moving mass. The mass that reconverts to energy SELF-REPLICATES to mass, in black holes, for the eventual re-singularity. The energy-to-mass SELF-REPLICATION process is GRAVITY. All this is enabled and goes on and mandated by/due to the small size and shape and inter-attraction of the gravitons that enable zero distance between them to re-form singularity.
I hope that now it is understood what gravity is and why it is the monotheism of the universe…DH
=================================================
Black Holes Whence and Whither
A.
Black Holes Whence
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/345481/title/Cohabiting_black_holes_challenge_theory
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/351747/description/Milky_Ways_black_hole_pulling_in_gas_cloud
From
http://universe-life.com/2011/12/13/21st-century-science-whence-and-whither/
http://universe-life.com/2012/09/02/all-the-mass-of-the-universe-formed-at-the-pre-big-bang-singularity/
Galactic clusters formed by conglomeration?
No. Galactic clusters formed by Big-Bang’s fragments dispersion, evidenced by their Newtonian behavior including their separation acceleration.
The big bang is the shattering of the short-lived singularity mass into fragments that later became galactic clusters. This is inflation. The shattering is the start of movement of the shatters i.e. the start of reconversion of mass into energy, which is mass in motion. This reconversion proceeds at a constant rate since the big bang as the resolution of gravitons, their release from their shatters-clusters, proceeds at constant rate due to their weak specific force due to their small size.
B.
Black Holes Whither
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/345421/title/Team_glimpses_black_hole%E2%80%99s_secrets
From
http://universe-life.com/2011/12/10/eotoe-embarrassingly-obvious-theory-of-everything/
A commonsensible conjecture is that Universe Contraction is initiated following the Big-Bang event, as released moving gravitons (energy) start reconverting to mass (gravity) and eventually returning to black holes, steadily leading to the re-formation of The Universe Singularity, simultaneously with the inflation and expansion, i.e. that universal expansion and contraction are going on simultaneously.
Conjectured implications are that the Universe is a product of A Single Universal Black Hole with an extremely brief singularity of ALL the gravitons of the universe, which is feasible and possible and mandated because gravitation is a very weak force due to the small size of the gravitons, the primal mass-energy particles of the universe.
This implies also that when all the mass of the presently expanding universe is consumed by the present black holes, expansion will cease and be replaced with empansion back to THE Single Universal Black Hole.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
===========================
The Universe, Some Updates
What Big Banged To Produce The Universe
From : http://universe-life.com/2011/12/10/eotoe-embarrassingly-obvious-theory-of-everything/
A commonsensible conjecture is that Universe Contraction is initiated following the Big-Bang event, as released moving gravitons (energy) start reconverting to mass (gravity) and eventually returning to black holes, steadily leading to the re-formation of The Universe Singularity, simultaneously with the inflation and expansion, i.e. that universal expansion and contraction are going on simultaneously.
Conjectured implications are that the Universe is a product of A Single Universal Black Hole with an extremely brief singularity of ALL the gravitons of the universe, which is feasible and possible and mandated because gravitation is a very weak force due to the small size of the gravitons, the primal mass-energy particles of the universe.
This implies also that when all the mass of the presently expanding universe is collected and stored at very low energy level in black holes, expansion will cease and be replaced with empansion back to THE Single Universal Black Hole.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
====================
Universe Inflation And Expansion
Inflation on Trial
Astrophysicists interrogate one of their most successful theories
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/342219/title/Inflation_on_Trial
Commonsense:
Inflation and expansion are per Newton.
Since the Big Bang galactic clusters loose mass at constant rate. Mass, gravitons, continue escaping at constant rate from their Big Bang fragments-clusters thus becoming energy, mass in motion, thus thrusting the clusters. Constant thrust and decreasing galactic clusters weight accelerate the separation of clusters from each other.
Common sense.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
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October 22, 2013 at 11:05 am
No, Nothing in this universe is evidence of gods.
Are rainbows proof of unicorns?
Is lightning proof of thor
You’re attributing without a base and it’s full of crap.
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October 23, 2013 at 3:03 am
The God is not a being.
But you’re…
It’s even hard to prove your existence too. Go deeper inside your micro cosmos. Separating from atoms to atoms.. just vacuum.
Separating proton and electron; relative to scale of Sun and Neptune… just vacuum.
Zooming into sub-particles… again just vacuum…
Mirage after mirage after mirage
Space that defines everything is just vacuum.
Forces appear and disappear. From nothing to nothing; from no where to no where.
Instead of keep looking for particle… why don’t you try to understand the vacuum ?
Which makes 99.999999999999999…. percent of the whole universe.
Upon the existence of Zero dimension… (what.. does not exist?)
Otherwise won’t make up the 1 dimensional world… (what… still impossible to exist?)
From 1 dimension we define 2 dimensional… (suddenly you get the picture?)
Then suddenly out of nothingness you get the 3 dimensional world as valid ‘existence’. What a strange mathematical equation there.
It would be easier if you within the scientific community can accept that energy is your God’s attribute.
Universally one God who’s not created and never be destroyed; only changing His attributes. The supreme intellectual game of time.
No god but The God.
It’s harder to prove that’s there’s no absolute God; except by ignorance.
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October 23, 2013 at 7:31 am
On Religion – Science – Intelligence…
It takes a change of culture, of the mode of reactions to circumstances, to effect a change of habit. Genetics is the progeny of culture, not vice versa. This applies in ALL fields of human activities, including economics, to ALL personal and social behavioral aspects.
Since the early 1900’s ALL “science” has been taken over by the Technology Culture of the religious Americans, represented by the trade-union-church AAAS. Plain and simple. There has not been any science in the world since then except “religious-American-science”.
On the blissful religious science ignorance…:
USA-World Science Hegemony Is Science Blind
Since the early 2000s I have been posting many articles on science items surveyed and analyzed by me, without religious background-concepts. I have been doing this because I was deeply disturbed by the religiosity of the 1848-founded AAAS trade-union and by the consequent religious background-tint of its extensive “scientific” publications and activities.
On my next birthday I’ll be 89-yrs old. I know that I’m deeply engaged in a Don Quixotic mission-war to extricate-free the USA and world Science from the clutches and consequences of the religious-trade-union-church AAAS, adopted strangely by the majority of scientifically ignorant religious god-trusting Americans and by their most other humanity following flocks…
But I am sincerely confident that only thus it is feasible and possible to embark on a new, rational, Human culture (Scientism) and on new more beneficial and effective technology courses for humanity…
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
Energy-Mass Poles Of The Universe
http://universe-life.com/2012/11/14/701/
============================
Decide Humanity: Scientism Or Natural Selection
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/special/conflict/index.xhtml http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/05/roots-of-racism.html?ref=em
Scientism:
A doctrine and method characteristic of scientists, and the proposition that scientific doctrine and methods of studying natural sciences should be used in all areas of investigation and in conduct of politics-social-cultural-civil affairs in pursuit of an efficient practical, as fair as possible, civics framework.
Natural Selection:
All mass formats, inanimate and animate, follow natural selection, i.e. intake of energy or their energy taken in by other mass formats.
All politics and economics, local, national and international, are about evolutionary biology, about Darwinian evolution, about survival, about obtaining and maintaining and distributing energy.
Religion:
is a virtual factor-component in human’s natural selection. Its target-function is to preserve-proliferate specific cultural phenotypes.
Natural selection-religion are compatible with technology-capitalism but are obviously incompatible with science-scientism, that targets preservation-proliferation of the genotype.
Science-scientism is an obvious threat to the survival of a cultural phenotype.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
Universe-Energy-Mass-Life Compilation
http://universe-life.com/2012/02/03/universe-energy-mass-life-compilation/
For A Scientism Culture
http://universe-life.com/2011/06/11/for-a-scientism-culture/
==================================
On religion-accommodating AAAS science: How can science be more theosophized than by regarding life-brain-mind-spirituality as being mysteriously apart-different from other mass formats?
Life is just another mass format. Self-replicating.
Most phenomena attributed (erroneously) to life only are ubiquitous, including culture, natural selection and (apparent) intelligence…
Why RNA genes are the heart of medicine…
Life underneath the academEnglish verbiage…
Intelliget Life
Life:
self-replicating mass format of evolving naturally selected RNA nucleotide(s), which is life’s primal organism.
Natural selection:
ubiquitous phenomenon of material, a mass format, that augments its energy constraint.
Mass-Energy:
inert-moving graviton(s), the fundamental particle of the universe, inert extremely briefly at the pre-big-bang singularity .
Intelligence:
learning from experience.
Intelligent Life
Life is an evolving system continuously undergoing natural selection i.e. continuously selecting, intelligently, opportunities to augment its energy constraint in order to survive i.e. in order to avoid its own mass format being re-converted to energy.
Dov Henis
(comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
PS:
Genome is a base organism evolved, and continuously modified, by the genes of its higher organism as its functional template.
DH
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October 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm
Zane,
I would have to wonder what your concept of God is. The God of theism is a perfect and necessary being, who has all power and all knowledge. Given such a being, how could anything come into being without His will? Your description of God as coming into being with the Big Bang is not a Christian conception of God. Indeed, that’s the kind of god the Greeks believed in, or pantheists. A created being is hardly deserving of the title “god.”
On the Christian worldview, God is pure goodness, and prior to creation, God was alone. So the moral dualism you espouse to has no place in the Christian worldview. Why think the existence of goodness also requires the existence of evil? Evil is a deprivation of the good, and thus is parasitic on goodness. This makes evil metaphysically dependent on the good, but goodness is not parasitic on evil. Pure goodness can exist in and of itself. See http://bit.ly/17Ja1mH for more information.
No, we will not be heartless, mindless robots in heaven. We will continue to have free will. But once we have been glorified, and once we are in the presence of the ultimate good, no one will want to choose evil anymore, similar to how even now, though I have the freedom to choose to eat feces, I will never choose to do so. My failure to ever eat feces does not mean that I lack free will, but that I possess good sense! As for your conception of heaven, this is a popular conception, but is not what the Bible has to say about heaven. See http://bit.ly/18cnFhp for more information.
Who created God? This is a common question, but meaningless once you think a bit about the kind of being God is. As I said, on Christian theism God is the metaphysical ultimate. He is uncreated and eternal. It doesn’t make sense to ask who created an uncreated being, anymore than it makes sense to ask what sound silence makes.
Jason
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October 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm
MJC,
1. The cushion and ball example is not ad hoc. It’s an example of an established principle: logical priority. Of course the cushion is not have a concave depression in its natural state. The illustration depends on that being true! It’s because the depression is not natural to the pillow that we know it is caused by something external to it. And given the physical proximity of the ball to the pillow, as well as the shape of the ball, it’s obvious that what is causing the concavity is the ball. And yet, since the ball has been resting on the pillow from eternity past, there was never a time when the concave depression began to exist. And yet, it would be nonsense to say that this means the ball can’t be causing the depression. It is, but the causation involved is not based on temporal sequence, but logical sequence.
No, the ball and cushion example does not require the concept of infinite time. It works whether you think of them existing in infinite time or a timeless state. All it requires is that the relationship of the ball to the cushion has always been the same, with the ball resting on the cushion forever.
You say this example cannot be used to say anything informative about finite time. First of all, it’s not meant to say anything about time at all. It’s meant to show that temporal causation is not the only form of causation possible. Whether or not logical priority applies within a temporally infinite world or not is irrelevant, particularly for the question at hand. When we are talking about the origin of the universe, we are not talking about events transpiring within time, but an event that began time. Indeed, the creation of physical reality from nothing would be the boundary point between timelessness and temporality, not an event in time. The universe came into being with time, not in time.
Other examples could be used as well. Consider the idea that physical laws came into being with physical reality. While both our universe and the physical laws came into being at the same time, the universe is logically prior to the physical laws because in the absence of anything physical, there could be no physical laws.
2. No, it’s not the case that arguing “time is not essential to ‘causal relationships’ is the same as arguing that the three physical dimensions (length, breadth and height) are not essential to the bouncing of a ball.” Of course the three dimensions of space, plus time, are required to bounce a ball. But the same is not true of causation. Time is not required for causation. Of course, in a world infused with time and temporal becoming, the causal relationship between events will be ordered by temporal relations, but the question is not what kind of causation do we experience in this temporal world. The question is whether or not there could be any causal relations before time existed, and I think philosophical reflection on this subject has been quite clear that they could exist. In the absence of time things could be causally related to one another in a logical manner, rather than a temporal manner. And since the creation of the universe by a God would be something that takes place in the absence of time.
3. Really? If there was an eternal ball resting on an eternal cushion from eternity past, are you telling me that you could not determine which caused which? Would it really be a toss-up for you? Would you really think it’s possible that the pillow had a concave depression in it to begin with, and that depression caused the concavity of the ball, rather than the other way around? Obviously not. Of course we can tell where the logical priority lies.
4. Hawking has claimed this. Many scientists do not view natural laws the way you and I do. We see them as being dependent on physical reality. No physical reality, no laws. But there are scientists who understand natural laws to be eternal, and the cause of physical reality. From what I have read, Hawking is one such scientist. So for him, natural laws are metaphysically and temporally prior to our universe, and thus can serve as the cause of the universe.
You described “metaphysical time” as a “thoroughly dubious concept.” I’m assuming you don’t read much philosophy, because this is not some new concept I came up with. You are simply wrong to say that time cannot exist outside of our universe. This is a question of what is logically possible, and logically speaking, it is entirely plausible for there to be time apart from any physical reality. Time is related to sequence. We can imagine a scenario in which God is counting down to creation from eternity past: “10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, Let there be….” Such a countdown would require the passage of time, even in the absence of physical reality. Mental events can be ordered by the “before” and “after” relations even in the absence of anything physical. That is what is referred to as metaphysical time. Personally, I do not think metaphysical time exists. I think God was timeless without creation. But we’re not talking about what is actual, but what is logically possible. Metaphysical time is logically possible, and thus cannot be described as “dubious.”
“Existence exists” is not an axiom of philosophy. It’s a tautology, and thus meaningless. Perhaps you just mean that “there is something rather than nothing.” That would be true, but it hardly justifies your claim that if matter, space, and time do not exist, then nothing exists. Such a statement presupposes that for something to exist, it must be physical in nature (which is why it is absurd to say that even God could not exist, because clearly God is not a physical being. Since God is not material, special, or temporal, how in the world would the absence of those things entail the non-existence of God?). That just begs the question in favor of atheism; it does not demonstrate atheism. If materialism is true, then your statement is true, but you first have to demonstrate that materialism is true. You can’t just declare it by fiat. It is at least logically possible that God exists, and if so, He would be an example of an non-physical reality.
You wrote, “The very idea of God counting down to creation in his mind already implies existence because you cannot have a mind outside existence.” Of course! Where you go wrong is when you say, “If you claim that God ‘exists’ in some non-physical dimension in which thoughts and actions that affect the physical world are possible, then you are in the realm of Mysticism, because you can never prove it.” Being unable to prove something does put one in the realm of mysticism. Consider Krauss’ example of the evidence for the Big Bang. Billions of years ago all of the evidence for it will be gone. There would be no way to prove it empirically. Would you claim that those in that day would be appealing to mysticism if they discovered Krauss’ book and believed what he said about the origin of the universe? Empiricism as an epistemology is bankrupt. That’s not to say we shouldn’t have evidence for our claims. It’s just to say that the absence of evidence = mysticism. But the theist does have evidence that an immaterial mind can affect the physical universe. First, the evidence for anthropological dualism would demonstrate that our own immaterial mind can have a causal influence in the material world. Second, philosophical arguments like the kalam cosmological argument are evidence for an immaterial mind having a causal relationship and causal influence on the material world.
Yes, one could say a lot when one is dealing with speculations like multiverse theories, but what matters is not what one can say, but what one can demonstrate empirically. Science could never do so since each universe in the multiverse would be causally isolated from the other universes. So this idea will forever remain in the area of scientific speculation. As one person said, materialists prefer a multitude of universes to a single god. Any physical theory that gets rid of God will do, despite its physical or metaphysical outrageousness.
Jason
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October 23, 2013 at 1:22 pm
Lawrence,
Knowing the “biographical details” of the divine being who created physical reality is a second tier question after one has established that there is such a being in the first place. While I think there are ways to arbitrate between competing theistic worldviews to determine the character and nature of the creator God, it’s important that we first establish His existence before we establish His identity.
So what if I was born in Afghanistan? Would I believe the creator was Allah instead of Yahweh? Perhaps so, particularly if I just accepted what my religious authorities told me and did not do my own personal study. If I did engage in my own personal study, I tend to think I would reject my Islam and convert to Christianity because of the evidence. Regardless of what I would or would not do, this has no relevance to what is true. I may believe it was Allah, but if it was Yahweh, then it was Yahweh. This whole thought experiment is an example of the genetic fallacy, where one’s belief is discredited because of its origin. The origin of one’s belief has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of their belief.
Why think that God has to obey natural laws? Natural laws apply to nature, not God. Besides, it’s a bit odd to think that God creates something, and then that something in turn binds God. As a sovereign and omnipotent creator, God is not subject to His own creation. One final thing to consider if your view of natural laws. Natural laws are not rules that God created, but merely descriptions of how God upholds the universe. See http://bit.ly/1h9pROv for more details.
I agree that science can tell us what is actually true, but it is limited in the kinds of truths it can elucidate for us. It is limited to physical truths. It does a great job in telling us how the physical world works, and to a lesser degree, the history of physical reality. What it can never do is tell us anything about ultimate origins; i.e. how something came into being from nothing. There are no physics of non-being! Neither can science tell us anything about God, angels, souls, morality, logic, mathematics, etc. since these are all metaphysical truths, not physical truths. Don’t be beguiled by a naïve scientism that sees science as the source of all knowledge. It’s a great tool that can provide us with great insights about certain aspects of reality, but not everything, and to be honest, it doesn’t tell us anything about the most important questions humans ponder. Only philosophy and theology are equipped to explain these things.
Jason
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November 14, 2013 at 6:38 pm
and the principle of sufficient reason give us good reason to think the universe does have a cause, and that cause is God. —-> but why a God? Maybe there was a cause but it could be a mathematical one and the Big Bang just a part of something extremely more complex… There could be infinite other explanations rather than God… This universe might have a cause, but you transform your wish that that cause is God into a fact, when it’s just a possibility, and there could be several other explanations…
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November 22, 2013 at 1:39 am
Leandro,
Why God? You say there could be an infinite number of explanations other than God, but this is mistaken. The only one you propose is a mathematical entity of some sort. The problem with this is that mathematical entities, like all abstract objects, are causally impotent by definition. That is a sine qua non of abstract objects. So no mathematical entity could serve as a cause for the universe, nor any other abstract object. What other option do we have? Well, to determine our options we have to look at the properties required of the entity that causes the universe:
First, the cause must be a necessary being which means it is eternal and imperishable, and its being is not derived from, or caused by some entity outside of itself. The very nature of such a being requires its existence. It cannot not exist because it is logically and metaphysically necessary in every world. Sidenote: Even if one argued that the cause of the universe could be another contingent being, the POSR ultimately requires that one reach a stopping point in a necessary being whose very nature requires that it exist, so apart from any reason to think the cause of our universe is another contingent being, Ockham’s Razor should cause us to consider that cause to be the necessary being).
Secondly, the cause must be external to the universe since any entity within the universe is part of what needs to be explained, and thus cannot serve as the explanation. If the universe encompasses all physical reality, including matter, time, and space, then the cause of the universe must be immaterial, eternal, and spaceless.
The only two candidates that match these properties are abstract objects and an unembodied mind. I’ve already discussed why abstract objects cannot be the cause, which leaves an unembodied mind. This is the theistic understanding of God, and hence in stands to reason that if the universe has a cause, that cause must be God. So if you are convinced of the POSR, then the only rational conclusion is that a theistic being of some sort caused the universe.
Jason
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November 28, 2013 at 4:01 pm
Yes because god is bound by the laws of us worldly humans. Shucks!
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December 1, 2013 at 11:05 pm
he is correct. according to the bible, god did not create the universe. that is modern theologian bs that’s seeped it’s way into the churches since the days of columbus and before. biblically, the universe is eternal. god exists, but he only made earth habitable.
the biblical definition of heaven(s)=firmament
firmament=heaved waters/atmosphere.
keep in mind folks the “big bang” is still just a theory. just because all the top scientists make theories around this theory doesn’t make either theories FACT.
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December 3, 2013 at 1:36 am
what mr hawking did there just proved God , after I finished reading his latest book all I can say there is NO way that there is no God and God did not simply create the universe He is the One who is constantly creating the universe there is also a biblical reference to this ‘In Me you move and have your being’ but this is just one simple example , God not accident is the One who sustains the whole creation from nothingness He created it from. Only an infinite power could not some accident .
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December 5, 2013 at 12:28 am
Jason,
1. Consider this statement derived from your statement about the cushion: “…the bottle has been broken from eternity past, there was never a time when the bottle’s breakage began to exist.” Do you not see the absurdity in having broken bottle pieces without a whole bottle as a PRIOR event?
2. Please produce an example from REALITY where causation occurred without time.
3. “…an eternal ball resting on an eternal cushion from eternity past” or anything remotely close to it can never happen in reality with the laws of nature that exist. You cannot invent something that defies reality and then use it to prove your point.
4. Stephen Hawking said “The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition.” This does not sound like a definitive statement that the natural laws are eternal, in the absence of the universe (or whatever led to it) but rather a conditional statement.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
Can laws operate minus existence? Are laws actually “real” in the same way as a stone or energy? I posit that laws are just mental constructs that allow us to understand things and make predictions. They are not real per se. What is real are physical entities acting according to their “nature”. Therefore, the idea of laws causing reality seems ridiculous to me because it presupposes that existence itself is the product of these laws. But how can laws “exist” if there is no existence? Existence has to to do with what is there (as opposed to what is not there). If there is NOTHING, it must necessarily include the laws of nature because how can something exist without existence?
Metaphysical time: It makes no difference who came up with it. It is still nothing more than speculation and is no more valid that any other wild speculations which I can also invent.
Time: How can you have a “sequence” with nothing physically existing to sequence? How can you you say “X happened after Y” when there is no X or Y that exists? Even God “counting down” in his mind already implies he exists. How can you order “mental events” if nothing exists? How can “mental things” exist apart from a mind? How can a mind appear without existence?
Existence: If we magically removed everything from the universe (or universes), including time, space, atoms, energy, dark matter, dark energy, etc, how could anything be said to “exist”? What would be left that qualifies for existence? Or do you believe existence is some abstract concept divorced from reality? Materialism I think is self evident. How can you even argue against it without running into a self-contradiction? If you do not exist, how can you make any argument?
How exactly do you know that God is not physical? Because the Bible says so? That is hardly a rational reason. How different is God from Dark Matter or Dark energy? We cannot detect or observe them directly but we see evidence of their existence just like you have never seen God but you derive your belief in him from traditions you were taught and from what you observe in the physical world. What if I also claim that Dark Matter is not “physical in nature”?
As for using books as the basis of evidence for something, do you also believe what the Book of Mormon says? Point is that it is irrelevant what any book says. What matters is if it can be proved. So if I find a 100,000 year book saying that I can go through a wormhole situated in the North Pole, I will simply go there and test its claims.
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December 5, 2013 at 12:42 am
truthtalk,
It is ironic you do not see the absurdity of your position. You say the big bang is just a theory but you then confidently use the Bible as an authority without realizing that aside from historical facts, the Bible is also just another source of theories that are not necessarily fact.
This is the trouble with you believers. You operate on double standards. You use Science to disprove Science but you brazenly refuse to apply the same scientific method to your own theories. That is the height of intellectual dishonesty. Imagine if we applied Science to Noah’s Flood or the story of Joshua stopping the sun. The absurdities are endless.
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December 18, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Everything that human beings deal with in our perceptive reality is based on theory. As in the theory of gravity, if the subject is detected, or it holds sway over some other thing and this sway can be detected, it has a theory. If one must argue a position for anything, one needs a workable theory in order to reference one’s premise’s possibilities.
Science has reasonable, workable theories and postulations based upon some viable and some tested perceptions from which a person can argue successfully for the position stating that no “god” had time in which to construct a universe. This fact leaves the religionists struggling for a toehold “arguing” from an emotional position, for the lack of a viable “god” theory.
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February 6, 2014 at 2:13 am
Yes, there can be a super natural power which existed before the physical time; probably in the meta physical time.
However, we the humans have not kept the definition of god proper.
If god exists (or even existed) as a super natural power then there is no reason for us in we believing god in various fictional characters which have created which have no legit proof.
If we don’t have enough evidence about god’s existence then, we, judging his behavior, nature as well as his apparent looks is a waste of time.
The “GOD” theory is not fully satisfactory to the facts of science known to us till date. Moreover the discoveries in this field have not kept up with the developments in science, especially physics.
But there might be the case that god is nothing but the DARK MATTER.
It doesn’t interact with light.
But it for sure that religion has ruined our moral values.
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February 27, 2014 at 6:04 pm
If anyone studies Islam (which means submission to God) logically, scientifically and open minded, he/she will not only have in faith in God, but also know God.
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March 5, 2014 at 10:31 am
“It is self-evident that only Mind can create mind.” I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith were simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God’s existence … In other words, in my assessment the Christian worldview accounted for the totality of the evidence much better than the atheistic worldview.”Science and philosophy have disproven the concept of an eternal universe.
You do not get something from nothing.
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March 5, 2014 at 10:33 am
the laws that surround causation speak against the universe being the ultimate cause of all we know for this simple fact: an effect must resemble its cause. This being true, no atheist can explain how an impersonal, purposeless, meaningless, and amoral universe accidentally created beings (us) who are full of personality and obsessed with purpose, meaning, and morals. Such a thing, from a causation standpoint, completely refutes the idea of a natural universe birthing everything that exists. So in the end, the concept of an eternal universe is eliminated.
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March 5, 2014 at 10:35 am
The atheist who derides the believer in God for believing in an eternal Creator must turn around and embrace an eternal universe; it is the only other door he can choose. But the question now is, where does the evidence lead? Does the evidence point to matter before mind or mind before matter?
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March 8, 2014 at 6:33 pm
Hawkings seems to employ circular reasoning.
Something happened 14 billion years ago. If the universe is mechanical, there is no reason it should choose 14 billion years ago instead of it just be “still waiting”. If the universe is manifesting itself continually or regenerating itself back and forth from other dimensions or whatever the theory du jour is there is a problem of infinite regress as well as a problem of why it exists in any way as opposed to not existing at all. An infinite series of things existing still has an “ultimate and absolute” TRUTH, REASON or EXPLANATION.
That ultimate truth of the matter transcends: time, because absolute truth does not require time or space. Leibniz calls it absolute necessity. Truth is > than time or the infinite. There is a reason and its transcendent and has agency. This is irrefutable.
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March 14, 2014 at 8:03 pm
I’ll take science over superstition any day……..We will all find out in the end. Just like creationism cant explain the age of the earth. After all, God made the heavens and earth in 6 days didn’t he? No mention of vast numbers of giant creatures in the bible is there? Seems kind of significant to us small minded science believer atheists. I read that Einstein, when asked about the existence of God at a dinner party, replied he doesn’t believe in a being that both rewards and punishes. To him God would be the universe its self and the know laws of physics. But who is he to say? In the end logic will prevail or the dark ages will return once more. Truth hurts sometimes.
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March 14, 2014 at 8:14 pm
One more thing I don’t see in these comments. Has anyone ever read Hawkins book? Does any one know the name of his book. Do you even understand what he is talking about. These aren’t just his opinions. They have scientific evidence to back them up……He also mentions that there is, according to quantum mechanics, no perfect vacuum. Matter has been shown to spontaneously appear and disappear. And has been proven in lab experiments.. I don’t see that mentioned in here either. Go on and hold on to 2000 year old bronze age beliefs. After all Galileo was proven wrong, right?!?
So go on and believe what you want. I sleep just fine with fact over fiction.
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March 15, 2014 at 4:34 pm
like i said before-It is self-evident that only Mind can create mind.” I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Science and philosophy have disproven the concept of an eternal universe.
• Therefore, an eternal Creator exists.
To date, all key scientific and philosophical evidence points away from an eternal universe and toward an eternal Creator. From a scientific standpoint, honest scientists admit the universe had a beginning, and whatever has a beginning is not eternal. In other words, whatever has a beginning has a cause, and if the universe had a beginning, it had a cause. The fact that the universe had a beginning is underscored by evidence such as the second law of thermodynamics, the radiation echo of the big bang discovered in the early 1900s, the fact that the universe is expanding and can be traced back to a singular beginning, and Einstein’s theory of relativity. All prove the universe is not eternal.
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March 16, 2014 at 5:56 pm
Idriverldrive…..read about the “holographic universe theory” Also might want to read about the largest survey of the universe conducted my NASA. It points to the possibility that the universe is not in actuality as we perceive it. We might be 3 dimensional representations of a 2 dimensional universe. Also look up the unusual fact that black holes cant be accurately explained using 3 dimensional equations, but in fact seem to exist in a 2 dimensional realm.
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March 16, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Oh, and not quite so fast on the eternal universe thingy. The NASA survey I mentioned points to a very real possibility that the universe goes on in infinity. Read more than just the bible to gather your facts. Please! As far as the universe can be traced back to a singular beginning is in question now. With new facts from the NASA survey just released. We in fact cant determine where the center of the universe is. Its not in our realm of understanding at our current technological level.
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April 5, 2014 at 10:37 pm
God dwells in the eternal now and it was from there that He created the universe. He didn’t need to precede it in time in order to create it.
Hawking has dug a hole for himself. If, as he says, there was no time for God to cause the big bang then there was also no way the singularity could have exploded. Remember time is a consequence of that explosion – it didn’t precede it.
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April 5, 2014 at 10:46 pm
Sean C, what do you say about the discovery of gravitational waves in the CMB confirming the inflation that took place in the first second following the big bang? Didn ‘t see that coming, did you?
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June 25, 2014 at 5:56 am
…and man was afraid for he saw death all around him,every living thing and being he ever knew eventually died. That strange things existed he could not explain (for he had not yet learned science ) like fire and the lights of the night sky, seeming to move with out cause. So man invented gods and his thoughts were filled with them. Over time he refined his idea to that of a sole creator and men of authority spoke of him as real and the people believed. Thus god became real (being created by man) and went back in time to create the universe. As time past the people performed horrible atrocities in his name though god did nothing for man. After too much time and too many horrors man realized the error of his ways for science had shown him that he did not require god to exist. Realizing how dangerous god was man slowly, but surely, stopped believing in god and he ceased to exist. Man then turned to the task of ensuring that every human life was cared for and each life was lived to the fullest because it was so short. Man learned to respect his fellow man for who they were and violence stopped.Then he set out on an endeavor truly worthy of his hard fought evolution. Man began to spread out and explore the vast and wonderful universe learning along the way that there were many worthwhile ideas other than his own,that evil had never existed, only fear of his own mortality. And mankind existed until the end of time. Now you know the true story of the universe. (Wow! This theism stuff is easy!)
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June 25, 2014 at 9:21 am
Nice storytelling Stopbeingafraid. Why should we believe your story is true? And why should you think that your story falsifies the arguments for theism? What you are guilty of is thinking if you can offer a psychological explanation for why someone might believe in God, that you have demonstrated that God does not exist ontologically.
Jason
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June 27, 2014 at 4:23 pm
Yeah then what created the big bang dork -_-
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July 20, 2014 at 3:19 pm
Knowledge is god lack of it creates god amen.If Stephen only knows what beer drinking competition has done to him.
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August 15, 2014 at 6:28 am
“a heavy ball resting on a cushion from eternity past.” Kant’s example requires eternal cause and effect, which invalidates the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. You’re simply hijacking our parochial understanding of a ball causing the indentation in a pillow because we consider the normal state of a pillow as not having the indentation. But if there never was a point when the indentation did not occur, then in what sense can we say that the ball caused the indentation? And if you remove the eternality of the scenario and suggest that the ball and pillow were created simultaneously at some fixed time, then surely the pillow could have been created with a spherical indention that matched the ball’s radius. The ball as the cause of the indentation is then not logically necessary.
“God’s causal act of creation constituted the first moment of time” Again, you’re creating a contradiction by suggesting that God can “act” without time. In our common usage we consider “acting” to mean receiving information, considering it, and then initiating some subsequent response. But what information is there? What could possibly be different about a spaceless and timeless entity that would trigger a “decision” to do anything?
And of course nobody ever offers the “how” of the creation of the universe. In the end we’re left with pure speculation about an event for which our conceptual tools completely fail. To suggest the Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, answers this question is arrogant and foolish.
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September 13, 2014 at 7:28 pm
I’m about to make one of those statements that push atheists further away from Christians but I cant help myself… The irony here is that in the end, Jesus will have to heal Hawking so that he is even able kneel and confess that Jesus is Lord, only to hear “depart from me, I never knew you” and be cast into a lake of fire for eternity.
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September 13, 2014 at 9:08 pm
That won’t necessarily push atheists and Christians farther apart. Atheists tend to put a fair bit of stock on science, and science is beginning to reveal why Christians imagine such events. So as an atheist I don’t consider such ideas crazy or stupid, just our evolved sense of intent playing out within a cultural context. And as the saying goes… there, but for the grace of god, go I.
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September 14, 2014 at 4:30 pm
We have never, ever observed an effect occurring at the same time as or before its corresponding cause. It’s interesting to think about as a philosophical notion, but until we actually observe it, it can be nothing more than a cool hypothetical. Hawking is a scientist; they rely on experimental confirmation. Until we actually observe causality being violated (i.e. an effect occurring before or at the same time as its cause), the argument is moot. Without experimental confirmation, this is nothing more than a thought experiment, and thought experiments don’t prove anything.
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October 14, 2014 at 12:23 pm
But, God doesn’t need time. He is every where at no time. And He doesn’t necessarily take our kind of body(physics), and process accomplishment steps.
After all there is no time in nature.
Therefore, “there was no time for Him “-is meaningless because we cannot evaluate the non-physical God that way. That way this goes to baseless reasoning category.
Right?
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October 14, 2014 at 12:32 pm
But any body has the right not to believe in God, even to do what ever we want to, because God doesn’t control us directly unless we pose universal destruction danger, that God doesn’t like to happen. Otherwise we live by free will.
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October 14, 2014 at 1:06 pm
To claim that God does not exist in time (or space for that matter) is to say that God does not exist. Existence, by definition, denotes a temporal dimension. “He is every where at no time.” In other words, He is neither in the past, present, or future. Or you could simply say that God doesn’t exist, which goes even further than I would go. I simply say that there is no coherent definition of God for which to determine existence.
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October 18, 2014 at 4:48 am
Here is a bit of a problem with Hawking ‘ s reasoning as well. The effects of gravity are expressed over time. In other words, gravity is the acceleration of massive bodies towards each other. The earth’s gravity is experienced as acceleration towards earth’s center of mass at 9 meters per second per second. Gravity ‘ s effect is always experienced over time, for it is equivalent to acceleration (as Einstein elaborated). Without time, there is nothing through which gravity can be experienced. In other words, without time it seems that there can be no gravity (or at least it has no external effect as we understand it). It seems to this layman that gravity could also not exist before time does. Due to gravity ‘ s nature, it cannot create a temporal universe, because gravity has no effect until the clock starts to run. Therefore gravity must come after time does, or at the moment time does. It cannot come before time does. Therefore it cannot be the cause of the universe coming into being.
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January 30, 2015 at 11:48 am
The concept of time is a human notion. A second, a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year and so on and so on.
If our world was the size of of our sun or as small as our moon, then our time would resemble something vastly different. Time has been invented by humans to give meaning, understanding and most importantly measurement.
God & Heaven are beyond comprehension in the terms of the human brain/mind.
To create the Universe is not rocket science, 73% Hydrogen, 25% Helium, everything else roughly 2%?
Scientist in the world can now clone animals and humans. There’s even talk of being to re-create dinosaurs from the genes of frozen mammoths. So why is it so impossible that the universe was created, by an all knowing God?
God & Heaven has always existed beyond the realms of science – a parallel universe perhaps?
Time is not a Godly, Heaven or Spiritual device – it is a human device, a tool for measurement. There is no measurement in Heaven, there is no time – you just ‘are’.
We know very very very little, in fact we know less than that. There are powers and forces that we cannot and potentially we are unable to ever comprehend.
Science is about evidence, something tangible, proof and when in 50 years time something is dis-proven, then a plausible excuse is given and all scientist trot along with that idea until the next grand awakening.
Faith on the other hand, needs no evidence or proof. Humans are afforded free will and freedom of choice. For those that need evidence in order to believe – just open your heart a little more and allow yourself to believe for a moment, you’ll be amazed at how empowering it will be.
One final comment, for those that blame God for illness, famine, war and as Shawn C has written, ‘rewards & punishes’, is it not humans who are rewarding and punishing ourselves? God has allowed us the good fortune of free will, freedom of choice – I sense that we have got it drastically wrong. Is this life not a test? Is Heaven not the idea of tranquility, peace, enjoyment, happiness, eternity (not measured)?
God bless you all, I hope to see all those that don’t believe in Heaven over an ice cold beer, living happily ever after!
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January 30, 2015 at 12:23 pm
“God & Heaven are beyond comprehension in the terms of the human brain/mind.”
And yet here you are saying, “God & Heaven has always existed beyond the realms of science”. As Sam Harris says, this is how you play tennis without a net.
The power of science that people like Stephen Hawking understand is that you don’t simply assert something that you want to be true and then hide that something behind an eternal veil of ignorance. You provide evidence for your position and then open that position up for scrutiny and possible falsification.
You are correct that appealing to faith (belief without evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary) is not scientific. It’s also completely worthless as a means for assessing the correspondence of a proposition to reality.
I hope to see everyone that believes in heaven start valuing this life as more than simply a waiting room for something better. We have just one lifetime in which to love each other and make the world a better place for those that come after us. Dealing with reality on its own terms is the first place to start.
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January 31, 2015 at 10:53 am
Dan Courtney:
Bravo! Kudo!
What you have stated is my Axiom of Reliance.
What Axiom of Reliance springs forth?: A self-evident and necessary truth, or a proposition whose truth is so evident at first sight that no reasoning or demonstration can make it plainer.
If there was a God, generation after generation, would never have to say, ‘If there was a God’, again;
………generation after generation would not be counting the number of ribs of a man and a woman to determine the number of ribs each of them have;
………or answer the question, Did Adam and Eve have remnant “belly buttons” from an umbilical cord? Or did they have an umbiblical cord?
Scientific/Mathematical Axioms cannot be proven, but they can always be observed and verified. e.g. the axiom that any 2 points in Euclidean space lie on exactly one line. There is no way to prove it. But take any 2 points in Euclidean space and you will always be able to verify that
1) They can be connected by a line
2) You cannot find any other line to connect them
Although it seems to make sense that an axiom verified is an axiom proved by the verification, a philosopher may niggle anything using their own preferred Axioms.
Religious dogma on the other hand, has nothing to observe or verify. It is only to be accepted on faith. There are no experiments to be conducted there. And that is the fundamental difference between the two.
Events will inevitably be seen through the filter of preferred axioms. For example, in time of drought people naturally enough pray for rain. If rain fails to come, it is God’s will and the people suffer. If it comes, it is a “miracle”, and God’s response to the prayer. The same events, seen through the axiomatic filters of science might conclude that the drought, and its ending, had to do with El Niño, solar activity cycles, currents in the Pacific, and so forth and was totally natural, inevitable, and utterly unaffected by prayers or the lack thereof both.
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January 31, 2015 at 11:18 am
Believers can come up with many answers why God is not self evident: testing us to see who really loves him, prove us through suffering; but, offering excuses is, reality, reason, logic and knowledge, denied.
Religion is Pregnant with Assumptions:
1st. If there was a God it would be self evident;
2nd. Religions would not have to proselytize;
3rd. There would not be a fractured human race, each faction promoting their
God Brand and Messenger and making extravagant claims of miracles;
4th. And why would any believer presume that the Creator needs or desires
to be defended by the Creature? Is not defense of territory, children,
mind memes and ego the mammalian’s domain?
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February 2, 2015 at 2:54 am
Dan Courtney
Why do you care so much? I sense you are closer to God than you care to admit.
If in your mind God is so fictional, why care what anyone else thinks? Do you rampage about Voldemort from Harry Potter – you know that fictitious character, who in your eyes must be as fictitious as my God?
I sense you are obviously searching for God yourself, otherwise why would you spend so much of your valuable time trying to argue against His existence?
I value life more because of my relationship with God and the enjoyment he brings to me and those around me. The world is experiencing some very dark times, is that God’s fault, is it the work of the devil or just general ignorance and desperation of humans and the fact we are not controlled by God? If you believe those who do atrocious things around the world and claim to be doing it in God’s eyes are really religious, then you are hugely mistaken. There is way more good around the world, however this is not reported as you can’t sensationalise good news!
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February 2, 2015 at 6:54 am
Kool:
“Why do you care so much?”
A very uncool caustic opening sentence to Dan Courtney.
Do you suppose Theists care more for their fellow than Atheists? I don’t think so; Atheists want to open eyes and minds with knowledge and facts for a “good” life, not beliefs and fantasy of the loneliest people in the world following a myth. As a matter of fact, Jesus was an “A-Theist” who came out of the closet and derided religion, supernatural theism and clergy perpetrators many times during his campaign. He pointedly and repeatedly emphasized religious nonsense after coming out of the closet many times in his quest to set the downtrodden believers under the tyrannical spell of supernatural clerical types, free, from those who “value life more because of” (their) “relationship with God and the enjoyment he brings to” (them) “and those around……” (them) in a pseudo-humanity.
Do you love only those who agree with you?, even sinners do as much.
You must remember the parable of how Jesus captured the essence of smug theists of Absolute Certainty: read it again for the first time.
Defining “Neighbor, relationship, enjoyment, humanity.”
Luke 10:25-37
Just then a religion scholar stood up with a question to test Jesus. “Teacher, what do I need to do to get eternal life?”
He answered, “What’s written in God’s Law? How do you interpret it?”
He said, “That you love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and muscle and intelligence—and that you love your neighbor as well as you do yourself.”
“Good answer!” said Jesus. “Do it and you’ll live.”
Looking for a loophole, he asked, “And just how would you define ‘neighbor’?”
Jesus answered by telling a story. “There was once a man traveling from Jerusalem to Jericho. On the way he was attacked by robbers. They took his clothes, beat him up, and went off leaving him half-dead. Luckily, a priest was on his way down the same road, but when he saw him he angled across to the other side. Then a Levite religious man showed up; he also avoided the injured man.
“A Samaritan (you know, the atheist, infidel kind) traveling the road came on him. When he saw the man’s condition, his heart went out to him. He gave him first aid, disinfecting and bandaging his wounds. Then he lifted him onto his donkey, led him to an inn, and made him comfortable. In the morning he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take good care of him. If it costs any more, put it on my bill—I’ll pay you on my way back.’
“What do you think? Which of the three became a neighbor to the man attacked by robbers?”
“The one who treated him kindly,” the religion scholar responded.
Jesus said, “Go and do the same.”
Why even the writer of Romans 2: endorses and supports atheism and affirms what Jesus told in parable:
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles(you know, the atheist, infidel kind), which have not the (religious) law, do by nature the things contained in the (religious) law, these, having not the (religious) law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law (of humanity) written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else justifying one another;)
“The world is experiencing very dark times….” When in the history of mankind has that not been true? If there was a God , yes it would be his fault. As it is it is religious man by invoking the created version of a scapegoat God in order give himself credibility and project debits and credits to the scapegoat so man need not take blame for the atrocities he commits in the name of his own invention. And so it is man believing in supernatural myths that justifies the world’s dark times forever and ever until he finally awakes to the reality that the supernatural he prays to supercaliritualisticexpialidociously can not stop the madness and mayhem fornever and never.
Theists expecting God to come and intervene instead of taking responsibility TO BE the champion they wish for will remain like the famous battery – NeverReady!
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February 2, 2015 at 12:33 pm
Well Mr. Kool J, I care a lot about the world I live in and the world that my children will raise their families in. I derive meaning from helping my fellow man live emotionally and intellectually healthy lives. Yes, I would like to think that I am close to God, but not the God of the bible. Not a primative anthropomorphic representation of some cosmic intention, but rather more like Spinoza’s god; the sum total of reality itself. If that sounds a bit mystical it’s not. We are in fact from and part of the universe. Perhaps even the first part of the universe to actually contemplate the universe itself.
No I’m not concerned with Harry Potter precisely because people recognise that it is fictitious. People are not organizing their lives, passing laws and discriminating against entire populations because of passages found in the Harry Potter series. If they were, then I might find meaning in pointing out their error as well.
I’m glad that we agree on one thing. We agree that the world is more peaceful and more prosperous than at any time in human history. Not that wars and crime and corruption have been eliminated, they have not. But a higher percentage of the population is living peaceful, productive lives in relative freedom than at any point since our species emerged. The real question, however, is why?
There are many reasons, but among the most important is the enlightenment era. This is a time in which a concerted effort was made to embrace reason over tradtion, and individual autonomy and rights over collective religious servitude.
Why do I care? Because just like Kant, Voltaire and Locke made my life better by helping to shed bad ideas and embrace new, better ideas, I hope to make life better for those that follow me.
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February 3, 2015 at 11:14 am
Can’t comment on Kant, am I wrong thinking that both Voltaire and Locke were both believers in God and the teachings of Jesus? I’m certain that Locke was an avid believer?
I can understand your liking to Spanoza’s god as an alternative to my God.
SonofMan, you seem very aggressive in your style of argument. I simply wanted to ask why people care about something they don’t believe in, why take time out your day to reply etc (you don’t need to write another aggressive rant on this subject)
I have never told an atheist they are wrong, I simply let them know I don’t agree. Your/their choice on what to believe. You should not be so offended that I believe in God, the creation and Jesus.
One thing you are both wrong about is the very FACT that religion gives me so much joy, purpose and direction. I probably live my life very similar to both of yours – kind, considerate, loving, caring, love thy neighbour etc I just believe and you don’t.
Amen
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February 3, 2015 at 12:31 pm
LL – I never suggested that you did not derive meaning from your religion, I’m sure you do. I think many theists see themselves as cogs in the machinery created by and for God. In this sense they take meaning from the role they play in acheiving God’s objective, which is somewhere between a total mystery and the glorificationof God himself.
On the other hand, I derive meaning by seeing myself as both part of the machine, and the machine itself. I’m an intentional agent within an intentionless universe. Instead of just being along for the ride down a mysterious path, my meaning comes from helping to create the path and taking responsibility for its direction.
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February 3, 2015 at 2:05 pm
LL Kool J:
Am I aggressive? By trying to wake you from your sleep? Maybe like beauty sin and art, it’s in the eye of the beholder; however, the message of disagreement is simple:
Atheism: “I’ll believe it when I see it”
Religion: “I’ll see it when I believe it”
If you want to read about aggression though you can re-read what Jesus said to the “Believers” of his day in Matthew 23 The “Woe to You indictment” and in a few other choice tidbit of tactical theology words in other encounters with religious believers.
Jesus did not “believe” in the supernatural God or the creation, of religious believers nor do I but I accept (believe) Jesus by the wisdom in his words and the reasoned, revolution he began that replaced the old Mosaic Law of Revenge: “tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye” with “kind, considerate, loving, caring, love thy neighbour etc” words you use; if you have those virtues within you, you’re doing good, by Jesus.
I marvel at the use of the word “rant”, that believers use as a kind of expression but not a kind expression. Jesus defined the “rant” of believers as: “….for a pretence make lengthy prayers….”.
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February 5, 2015 at 9:11 pm
hi There is no time for Creator because it is his creation like everything.
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February 6, 2015 at 4:50 am
Hi Osman:
Your comment is like shearing a pig; a squeal but little wool
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February 20, 2015 at 10:54 pm
I couldn’t read every reply, since time does exist now, so if I repeat something said already, I apologize.
The Flaw in Mr. Hawking’s statement, is that God exists out of time, from a biblical standpoint. So time is something we deal with, not God.
And more simply, from a 5 year olds questions, about why, why…..
So God had no time to create the big bang, yet it happened, while having no time to occur in.
How did it happen then, if there was no time for it to occur?
If you ask “Where did that come from?” enough times, you’ll get an “I don’t know”
Which makes nearly every scientist an Agnostic, unless they have the Faith of the Atheist.
And truly believing there is no God, is as delusional as those who know for certain there is a God.
Energy can not be created or destroyed, a basic rule of physics, then how is there any energy, if it can never be created, yet it exists?
It came from a bigger universe! Where did that Universe come from?
It came from another bigger universe! Where did that come from?
Repeat forever.
It’s a pointless argument, if we’re here, even though we cannot be created out of nothing, then how are we here?
It tends towards a being, who exists out of time, and is not constrained by time.
But, we who are constrained by time, have no way to know for sure, thus, Agnostic.
Admitting that you have no way of knowing, is not a cop out, but embracing reality fully, it is what it is.
Atheists, and those of any religious belief, are people of Faith, they believe something that can never be proved.
There is great comfort in Faith, thus most people gravitate towards the opposite poles of faith.
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February 20, 2015 at 11:01 pm
And SonOfMan, the wise do not try to get wool from a pig, as they know better, a lot of hog hair makes a very uncomfortable sweater, the better choice is to shear a sheep.
I’m not wise, though, but still, I’d go with the sheep!
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February 20, 2015 at 11:12 pm
I’m a little confused, SonOfMan, since Osman was confirming what you’d said earlier, yet you put him down.
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February 22, 2015 at 5:20 pm
Carl:
Osman’s comment supports the God theory (theism, personal god who must necessarily be from the paranormal world of supernaturalism) and that is not my position. I do not accept (believe) the Creation theory or the Big Bang Theory. Creation is too abrupt with its beginnings and ends; Big Bang is also too abrupt; Evolution is more sound but only when change is always evolving not blasted into existence by creation or Big Bangs. On the other hand Creation(change) could be Evolution speeded up and Evolution(change) could be Creation slowed down.
Odd you should think of making a sweater from shearing a sheep though; I would have thought a blanket maybe, a covering at least but not shearing the wool, washing the fleece, skirting the fleece, washing the wool, picking the wool, carding, roving, spinning the wool, wind or skeining the yarn and finally. Finishing
There are many ways of finishing the yarn. It is sometimes necessary to remove the lubricant by washing, which also “sets the twist” which allows the fibers to open up, fluff out and make a loftier yarn. Sometimes the wool is woven or knitted directly from the cone and is washed and blocked in its final form (as cloth, socks, sweaters, etc.) The Knitting. Then you can put it on and wear it.
Sometimes as much as 50% of the weight of the fleece is not wool.
I think I might have stopped at Skirting the fleece.
The wool from the back end of the sheep, their legs and sometimes their belly is too full of manure to use. These are referred to as “tags” (as in the phrase “tag end”). These are removed first before washing the fleece; this process is called skirting, as all the edges of the wool coat are removed. The fleeces are also sorted into the various types: fine from coarse and short from long.
Nevertheless thanks for your comment because the sheep is the way I would go too; but believers, believers trying to defend their God Belief System in light of mythologies from past world cultures; well, that’s where the shearing of the pig comes in…lots of squeals but little headway in proving the evidence by the wool one ends up with at the end of the day. Not much after ten thousand centuries of trying to turn magic into miracles.
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March 8, 2015 at 5:21 pm
[…] the smart aleck out there who thinks Steven Hawking adequately addresses this, I’ve read Hawking’s refutation, and even though he’s probably lots smarter than me, he misses the entire point. He […]
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April 15, 2015 at 6:07 pm
Anyone who claims they know what can or can not exist outside of our universe (which includes Dr. Craig by the way, who claims only God or abstract numbers can exist outside of space and time) can not be taken seriously. I would think it was obvious, but apparently even (otherwise) incredibly smart people like Prof. Hawking can be arrogant enough to claim that it is impossible for God to exist before the universe.
You could easily speculate a new form of time, or heck some new dimension that we simply don’t understand in which universes may be formed through processes beyond causality. We simply don’t know…I can not believe the arrogance of some people in this. We regularly hear from scientists (Einstein) and theists (Dr. Craig) how miraculous it is that we **understand** our universe. And people quote them all the time…agreeing with them completely. And then they turn around and assume that whatever exists outside of our universe, or whatever could have been the cause is completely comprehensible to us, and that we can somehow make completely, 100% accurate predictions from nothing but our faulty intuition. The same faulty intuition that thinks matter is 100% solid when it is more than 99% empty space.
There is nothing wrong in having a hypothesis, but that is *ALL* you have. We have no empirical evidence from outside of our universe to judge the validity of our claims, including the claim that we are even able understand reality outside of our universe. What is so wrong with admitting what should be obvious? We don’t know. We don’t know if our minds can comprehend the reality outside of our universe, or what could have caused it, so we should logically make no assumptions about it.
That means there is no “best theory” that you can use in the absence of more evidence, because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to begin with. These are all completely unsupported claims made by people who so desperately want to know the truth that they will commit egregious errors in logic to do so.
Kudos to Jason Dulle for writing this. Though I have to say his example of a heavy ball resting on a couch is a bit silly. One could easily say that the whole situation is absurd, like that of an unstoppable object hitting an unmovable wall. The whole hypothetical could easily be absurd, but for some reason that is not considered. The rest of his post is quite reasonable.
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April 17, 2015 at 7:22 am
Thanks for the marvelous posting! I actually enjoyed reading it, you could
be a great author. I will ensure that I
bookmark your blog and may come back someday. I want to encourage continue
your great work, have a nice evening!
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April 17, 2015 at 11:33 am
“I will ensure that I bookmark your blog and may come back someday.”
Wow Jason, what a compliment, as the ego flies “………and may come back someday”, must have you doing cartwheels in anticipation from marketing automation that “may come back some day” lol 🙂 Can hardly wait for the next posting
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April 23, 2015 at 3:53 pm
If God made the world, then who created God. You can turn this around saying: If the universe made the world, then who made the universe, making your point false.
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April 23, 2015 at 6:45 pm
If there was no cause for the Big Bang could that mean now that our universe doesn’t exist meaning we don’t exist and were only a concept or an idea of say nothing?
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April 23, 2015 at 6:48 pm
What I mean is nothing could be living or like a god that I don’t believe in is what we’re an idea frim
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April 30, 2015 at 5:27 pm
So was movement created before the big band or the big bang created inertia.. Yet in the bible says that the Spirit of God hover in the water(so before light was created movement was already there) if movement inertia were proved to exist before the big bang wouldnt that explain many questions… But oh well atheist are atheist .. And seems like they want to prove something by taking the most important factor(God) of life away..
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June 3, 2015 at 1:28 am
The ONLY scientific elucidation/implications of gravitation are by Dov Henis
The Difference Between The Universe And Earthlife Cyclic Evolutions
April 18, 2015
A. The Universe And Earthlife Cyclic Evolutions : Whence, whither and how nature drives life/humanity מאין ,לאן ואיך מוביל הטבע את החיים/האנושותGravity is the monotheism of the universe
(Hebrew and English)
September 15, 2014
Whence, whither and how nature drives life/humanity
http://universe-life.com/2014/09/15/again-the-universe-life-relationship/
מאין ,לאן ואיך מוביל הטבע את החיים/האנושות
Again, The Universe/ Life Relationship, embarrassingly obvious/simple elucidation…
B. The Difference Between The Universe And Earthlife Re-Cyclic Evolutions
April 18, 2015
Earthlife re-cyclic evolutions are innately evolutionary genome-based memory-continuums, whereas the universe re-cyclic evolutions (approx each 20 billion, 20X10^9,years ) are each fresh, completely devoid of earlier memory via singularity, dual- poles mass-energy systems.
Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century, one of the many humans with highly exaggerated self-esteem)
http://universe-life.com/
Earth Life Genesis
http://universe-life.com/2011/09/30/earthlife-genesis-from-aromaticityh-bonding/
Seed Of Human-Chimp Genomes Diversity
http://universe-life.com/2011/07/10/seed-of-human-chimp-genomes-diversity/
Genetics is modifications of genome’s expressions in response to cultural variations, i.e. to behavioral modifications in response to circumstantial variations. DH
ומערך הכסף והבנקאות הם התחכמות האדם לדרישת הטבע להצטיד באנרגיה ולהשתמש בה להישרדות… דה
Beyond historical concepts natural selection is E (energy) temporarily constrained in an m (mass) format. Period.
Money/banking system is the system-based human circumvention of nature’s drive of the ruthless natural selection melee… DH
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June 3, 2015 at 12:10 pm
” You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang.”
This is utterly sad!!! Stephen Hawking is explaining himself and acknowledging the existence of God and he doesn’t see it. This is more ironic than Iron Man’s suit, which is NOT iron. The laws of physics do not lie. Stephen Hawking can give you a speech on that subject.
OF COURSE there was no time before the big bang. Time started counting once God said, “Let there be light.” BANG. Time as we know it started counting. Stephen Hawking’s brain cannot comprehend BEFORE the main event. He can only muster to understand the main event FROM the time it started.
Stephen Hawking can only understand that a movie was played from 00:00:00:00, which in this case is The Big Bang movie. He cannot understand that someone OUTSIDE of the movie inserted the movie in the player and hit Play before it started, which was God. God is the Director that recorded the Big Bang Movie, which is the plane of existence where we exist.
If you put a VHS tape in a VCR and hit Play, did the time started counting after you hit Play or before you put the tape in? What time? The time in the COUNTER of the VCR. It started counting after hitting Play. But it was the time of the MOVIE that stared counting, not the time of being or existing when putting the VHS inside the VCR. God lives outside of time. That concept cannot contain Him.
How can The Eternal God exist in time when HE invented? God has never begun to exist or ceased to exist. He exists. Has existed. Will exist. He is the one that invented existence. HE is the one counting, or acknowledging that you are and that you exist. That SOMETHING that your brain cannot process and your mind cannot understand IS God. The mental “clutch slippage”, that lack of logical mind grip you can’t quite describe, is your inability to click on the understanding of God. You cannot fathom Him, unless you have a personal relationship with Him and then He enlightens you and you understand Him.
In 2014, God took me outside of time and showed me the counter of my life. No joke. This is as science-fiction and fantasy as you can imagine. But it happened to me…in a hospital. It was so surreal being alone in that “tape room” watching that screen. There was a counter counting, and Jesus Christ was in another room, in a higher level of existence, watching me absorb what was happening in front of me. It was scary just accepting that reality. I can feel God’s presence just typing this. Wow. I still remember. It was so real. Our reality is not even real, brother. This is just a dream compared to the real reality. Why did God do that to me? Because I disrespected Him, and He took it upon Himself to show me that He indeed existed outside of our little sandbox we call time.
Now understand this: only something that CAN cease to exist lives under the concept of time because someone above, in this case, God, is counting.
Why would He need time when He invented the concept and He has BEEN always? He just IS. Forever. And ever. Something has to be BEFORE the nothing. If not, nothing could not exist because how do you know it’s nothing? It’s something because you’re pointing at it. You’re referencing it with your limited mind, which has a counter ever since it started being, regardless of when you became aware that you existed, or how far back you remember being. The Eternal God needs no time. That little concept is too micro, too nano, too pico…too limited and inadequate for Him. Eternal is eternal for a reason. God is Eternal.
But better than being Eternal, He wants to give you eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Christ IS the life that is making you breath air in and out RIGHT NOW so the spirit that is the real YOU, your soul, does not perish eternally without the sponsorship of life that is Jesus Christ. Who are you? What are you? Because you know or someone told you? What is obvious? What is a given?
If He wanted, you’d cease to exist RIGHT NOW, but He loves you so much, He wants you to know Him. You are a genius when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart, not when you deny God because He is too big for your little, handicapped intellect to understand.
You attain maximum enlightenment when the Holy Spirit moves in and lives inside of you, which is the Spirit of God yearning to have a relationship with you. Then you get the point of what life is. You’re not the independent body and mind and entity you truly believe you are. But you need to be washed with the blood of Christ by accepting Him in your heart right now to experience the realization of BEING alive, not just knowing or believing that you are alive. Love you guys in the name of Christ our Lord. Whoever deletes this comment WILL have to deal with God. I promise you.
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June 3, 2015 at 10:09 pm
Antoio Resto:
“Stephen Hawking’s brain cannot comprehend BEFORE the main event.”
Actually Antonio nobody’s brain can comprehend BEFORE the main event simply put we do not even know what the main event is except to say that the Main Event was when the Concept made man. And that is why the ancient mind developed the concepts that you call God, they invented many god concepts to describe the many things they could not understand. They invented the Rain God until we discovered Meteorology and then the Rain God was sacrificed on the altar of Science in knowledge and died a faded demise from man’s memory it seems.
Nobody can understand the concept of Absolute Certainty although religious types always assert that they know all about Absolute Certainty. Believers would just as well tear down the Hadron Collider because religious believers know it all.
And even though you make the assertion it is not even your assertion, it is the assertion of Ancient man who knew less than you yourself know today and less than any child in elementary school. You should really think for yourself and try to be original at least.
“You have to be washed in the blood of of Christ”. Where in the world did you learn this idea? Did you invent it? You who now know the mind of god, did you come up with this notion of being washed in the blood? I hardly think so you have been well brainwashed by others and it just so happens that this personal relationship you speak of empowers the ego of people who just cannot admit they do not know.
“Whoever deletes this comment will have to deal with god”. Wow, so clergy-like, so religious, so threatening, said like a true follower of religion.
Well if it works for you, that’s your placebo; everyone needs a placebo when they can’t bring their ego to simply say “I don’t know”.
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July 12, 2015 at 5:06 am
Nicely put.
The only criticism I can make is that using logic around god is less than ideal – god is beyond logic. Arguing with a scientist is pointless and time wasting – trying to use logic is even more so. it is like teaching a pig to sing.
a couple of points from my perspective.
according to scientists:
1) nothing existed, then it did but somehow that is different to god.
2) life didnt exist but somehow it magically happened through chemical
means.
3) in an infinite universe anything can exist – except god. what they mean is a
lot more of what their little part of the universe can cope with.
food for thought – in this argument.
1) you cannot prove or measure love – so according to a scientist it should not exist either. a little hypocritical of them I would say.
2) time is NOT a dimension. it is the SUBJECTIVE time between 2 events. hence it is not a static value but when it suits them, science needs something to measure… oh dear.
3) we live in a small part of a big universe and have been “smart” for a short period of time.science is kinda like a mayfly dismissing winter as some thing that couldnt possibly exist because they have not personally experienced it.
4) to a blind person,a rainbow does not exist. does the covenant still stand?
Other thoughts for everyone.
1) faith is something special you have and it needs no explanation.
2) you cannot adequately pass on your experiences with god to others.
(what you experience is different from others. ask 2 people about a movie
they just watched. both have different experiences. just accept it).
3) the road to hell (and arrogance) is paved with good intentions.
so if you are lucky enough to have those experiences, remember to be
humble.
4) most religions are now political constructs. remember that at their heart,
the original message should still be there and they are trying to hold onto
the original message in a different space and time.
5) without the dark, the light is not seen. the dark is not necessarily a bad
thing.
6) live, love and breathe deeply. the world is a good place.
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July 12, 2015 at 8:54 am
I agree that “god is beyond logic”… therefore it would be irrational to make any comment about god, even a comment about god’s existence or non-existence. Of course the comment “god is beyond logic” implies that god exists, which is not rationally supported.
I know of no biologist that suggests the life began by “magic”. That’s a theistic position.
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July 17, 2015 at 10:33 pm
Cannot you all see the insanity of your argument “Gods” man invented way back to explain every cause and effect. It’s insane to even use such a word. You live a brainwashed reality. Ask any other animal about ‘gods’ and refer to the scene in the simpsons when Bart was pleading with ‘ santa’s little helper’ to change his behaviour so to avoid being removed from the simpsons home.
“the dog is every other animal except you” That’s what brainwashing does.
Finally… ” Don’t you see? if no one told you this crap, ( gods) it would not exist” It’s only in your brain by stealth. Cheers.
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July 18, 2015 at 5:50 am
Many insist there is no evidence for God. Each time I read or hear such a statement, I am left shaking my head . Those who make such comments are just incredibly wrong. There is absolutely overwhelming evidence for a Creator. Study the field of apologetics.
Very bright people, such as Stephen Hawking keep insisting there is no reason to conclude there is a God – that science can explain all of creation without need for a Creator. Study the human body. The human body was created by an Intelligent Designer. That is a stunningly obvious fact that is backed up by tons of proof. Randy
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July 18, 2015 at 8:08 am
Randy: This might give your head a shake.
Study the flu viruses that mutates and adapts in order to attack and overwhelm its host and the immune system that sytematically comes to the rescue, raising defense mechanisms to rid itself of the ravages of the insidious pathogens.
Does the God believer believe God is operating in the human body via the immune system?
Does the God believer believe God is operating in the pathogen’s body via the mutation process?
Does the God believer believe Satan is operating in the pathogen body?
Is sin operating in the pathogen body?
Is it knowledge or belief that intervenes in the life cycle to create vaccines for things like ebola?
It seems to me that Knowledge is more Godlike than Belief.
When the hornet inadvertently flies through the open door on a bus, why, after the door closes, does it keeping banging into the windows trying to fly back out into the environment? By belief, not knowledge.
By belief Jehovah’s Witnesses die, lack of blood; by belief suicide bombers go blindly to their demise, spilling blood.
Eighty percent of the world’s population operate on a belief system and that eighty percent directly or indirectly cause disease, destruction, hunger, thirst, anger, hate, war and death; and yet, the eighty percent still gather every Sunday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday to mourn the effects the direction of their humanity takes, week after week, shooting after shooting, bomb after bomb, bullet by bullet, month after month, year after year. And the Irony of it? they’re all waiting for the Messiah to come to change the world THEY made. Sin is the believers’ scapegoat.
In the day that the eighty percent become the Messiahs they pray for, hope for, wish for, that will be the day the world changes! In the meantime the twenty percent plod incessantly onward trying to undo, diminish and prevent the Belief System, the eighty percent operate on, from obliterating life on the planet.
How possible do you think it might be that Mars was once a bustling sister planet to Earth before religious insanity gained a toehold, a foothold, a worldhold that has rendered planet Mars a lifeless, barren desert?
How many other planets and civilizations have been wiped out by a Pompeiian Vesuvius-like religion?
Are you looking for Noah’s Ark? Try looking on Mars for it !
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July 18, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Hi Take Away
You lost me, and I have been to many county fairs and the state fair twice. 🙂
Maybe you are saying that the evil you see is often caused by those who believe in God? I agree.
Maybe you are saying that those who believe in God are often misdirected, or misinformed or mistaken? I agree.
Maybe you are saying that if there is a God, then he would intervene and stop the evil you have witnessed? My answer to that is very complicated, but I am convinced there is a very good answer.
Are you saying you believe that sister planet Mars was once suffered a Pompeiian Vesuvius-like religion or are you making irony against some group who believes that? Like I said, you lost me. Never heard about that at any of the fairs. 🙂
My point, and I am 100% serious: I am absolutely convinced there really is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator. And, very importantly, He is also Good. All Good. No kidding, I do believe that. I believe it because my independent study of that question, which has been a life long search, has convinced me beyond any doubt.
Randy
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July 18, 2015 at 7:20 pm
I went to the local book store today and spent about 3 hours reading Jane Hawking’s “Traveling to Infinity.” Jane was the first wife of Stephen Hawking and was married to him for 25 years. She appears to be a very intelligent and wonderful person. I found it interesting that she apparently is a woman of faith and she comments (words to the effect) that it always sank her heart when she would hear Stephen deny there is a Creator. Here is the person who knows first hand how brilliant is Stephen Hawking – much of the book is a chronology of his brilliance – yet, apparently, Stephen has not convinced her there is no God. Randy
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July 18, 2015 at 10:30 pm
Well Randy:
If you base your belief on scripture it is not unusual to believe that your God is the cause of everything including evilas it says in But I am not talking about the evil caused by mankind but the evil that we are exposed to because of pathogens. I thought that was pretty clear. The pojt being that pathgogens are constantly mutating and adapting in order to defeat the defenses that immune systems, for example, pose and develop to defeat the pathogens. So my question is are they both functioning as the result of Godly dirction. My easy answer is NO! They are not.
Then that leaves something else, like evolution, that constantly evolves to counter the forces that come against the defenses.
Now I do get your sarcasm about the County Fair but you have to rise above that. Scientists also say that at one time Mars had oceans just like ours, a robust environment, just like ours, and quite possibly a civiliization, just like ours. I do not discount that for a minute. But over a million, trillion years things chang and possibly the remnant of Martian Society were able to migrate to Earth among the dinosaurs and all………
How would we know? We wouldn’t.
So imagine the possibilities and get out of the mindset of religious insanity that explains everything based on what? Imagination. There is nothing sound about imagination; we can think about several scenarios without believing that any one is better than another; we just don’t know.
When I was thriteen years of age I felt compelled to go into the forest without telling anyone, cut down a tree, make a cross and start carrying it through the forest to identify with Jesus; I asked myself in later years why that was and concluded that it was a desire based on the belief system of religious indoctrination that I was exposed to. I had no ideas to counter that. And so my search for truth began in earnest as I would not become a pawn in someone else’s imagination.
Consider your book that says Isaiah 45 1-7: “Besides me there are no real gods. I’m the one who armed you for this work, though you don’t even know me, So that everyone, from east to west, will know that I have no god-rivals. I am God, the only God there is. I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”
So if you believe …….”there really is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator….” then it seems to me you have a lot of explaining to do about the evilo IT creates and why it is GOOD!
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July 19, 2015 at 12:00 pm
Hey Take Away,
The part about the county fairs was meant to be self-deprecating humor, certainly not directed at you. I like the way you make your case and was not being sarcastic.
My very strong belief in an all-good Creator is based upon my study of Scripture and Christian Apologetics. Yes, I do believe the Bible. Since about 1975, I have read 3 chapters each day. I have seen Scripture work in peoples lives, mine included, and the evidence that is covered by a study of Apologetics is absolutely overwhelming, even conclusive.
You stated:
“‘So if you believe …….’there really is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator….’ then it seems to me you have a lot of explaining to do about the evilo IT creates and why it is GOOD!”‘
Absolutely. Christians, for the most part, and especially the organized church does a woefully poor job of explaining how it is that we believe in an Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, when all of us witness, on a daily basis, the great evil in this world. How can it be that an good God would allow this evil to exist and continue? Why do pathogens exist that destroy lives? Why was Hitler allowed to kill millions of people and wreck the lives of their families?
I cannot answer that in a paragraph or two. As I mentioned before, if you want the answer you will have to spend considerable time on the subject. I recommend Alvin Planting, Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Notre Dame University.
In short though, in order to answer that question, one must consider several points:
1. This age and our individual lives are temporal. Evil will be defeated.
2. We humans have true free will. We have radical free will. We are able to create evil and we have done that and the world, even all of this universe, is suffering the effects, including the pathogens you mentioned.
3. Why did not God create us unable to create evil? Well, If He would have, we would be puppets. Robots. He decided to create us with the ability to choose good. We did not always choose good, and now He is fixing the problems we have created.
4. The final result will be one where existence is greatly enhanced. We will be more like God than we would have been if we had not went through the trials and tribulations of this age.
Randy
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July 19, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Randy:
Did you not read the biblical veres I sent or are you discounting it? here it is again.
Isaiah 45 1-7: “Besides me there are no real gods. I’m the one who armed you for this work, though you don’t even know me, So that everyone, from east to west, will know that I have no god-rivals. I am God, the only God there is. I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. 7 I form the light, and create darkness:I MAKE PEACE AND CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.”
Sure I believe the bible too but you have to have understanding, I am not looking for answers, I believe I have the answers; but I am looking for explanations by apologists to support what they “Believe”; furthermore, when it comes to apologists here’s what I think about the way they carry their skewed biases: (noting here that you said you have read three chapters a day, you may get a kick out of the following: originally posted 3 days ago on Jason’s WordPress in the title “Are all christological heresies truly heretical”:
If I were to come to your home and found you reading a book, and it’s my first visit to your home I probably wouldn’t be discourteous and ask you what the book you were reading. I’d just notice you were reading a book. And you’d look up maybe and engage in conversation. But next time I visit you, you’re still reading the same book. Maybe even on that occasion I don’t happen to mention it but I notice it’s the same book. And I come again and you’re still reading that book, and every time I come you’re still reading the same book; well finally, I’d pluck up enough courage and say that book must be very fascinating.
“Oh yes you see, I get up at six o’clock every morning; I get up and I read several chapters; as a matter of fact I’ve analyzed several chapters.”
“Well”, I’d say, “it must be very, very intriguing and….”
“Oh it is”, you’d say; “as a matter of fact I’ve set several verses to music, I bought a guitar and I sing it”.
“Well great”,
“As a matter of fact I’m training a choir”.
“Well fine. What is the book”?
“Why, it’s the manual on my new car. And you see, we’re going to sing at the next motor show”.
“Well great. Tell me about the car. Tremendous acceleration? Great braking power? Rides smoothly over all the bumps?”
“Uh uh”, you might say, “I really don’t know. Because you see it’s in the garage; I’ve never been for a ride”.
Well wouldn’t that be an exercise in stupidity? To analyze a book, read it every morning, sing it, set it to music, memorize it, and never go for a ride.
There are countless converted men and women who can say I made my decision for Jesus. And now they read the bible, memorize some verses, set it to music, buy a guitar, train choirs but quite frankly, never been for a ride. This was like the Scribes and the Pharisees. The Lord Jesus said to them: “You search the scriptures.” In the original it’s the imperative. Or rather it’s a categorical statement of fact, not just the imperative. He didn’t say “search the scriptures”, he said, “You search the scriptures” because he knew they did. This was their stock in trade; this was their text book.
“You search the scriptures; in them you think you have eternal life.”
There’s no eternal life to be found in the bible. I believe the bible from cover to cover, I believe it to be divinely inspired, I believe it is authored by the holy ghost. But there’s no eternal life to be found in the bible. Said the Lord Jesus:
“These scriptures are they that testify of me and you will not come to me that you might have life.” So you’ve got a bible you study and you flatter yourself on your biblical scholarship. You derive from it your theological and philosophical propositions but you examine that book without any revelation of the one who authored it and you fail to recognize the one of whom it testifies and because you will not come to me, that in me you might have that life that only I can give you, you’ve got a dead bible and a dead religion and it won’t be long before you have a dead Christ because you see if you study the bible long enough without coming to the one of whom it speaks you’ll crucify him. And then you’ll say,
“We buried him in our generation”.
Said the Lord Jesus, your word is truth. It contains those vital principles that must govern man’s relationship to God and God’s relationship to man. Sanctify them Father, through this truth. As thou Father has sent me into the world even so have I sent them into the world. Because Father when I came into the world, by agreement, between yourself, myself and the holy spirit, I deliberately stepped out of eternity into time, I came from heaven to earth and I assumed their humanity. That those principles Father that we designed should govern man’s relationship to God and God’s relationship to man should be operable. In my humanity Father in terms of my relationship to you and your relationship to me. And so for their sakes Father, having been born a human being, have assumed their flesh and blood for their sakes, I sanctify myself that they also may be sanctified through the truth because if they can’t grasp the truth, if they can’t just understand what it’s all about Father, all they have to do is look at me. And they’ll see demonstrated in my humanity and in my disposition Father that I adopt toward you that let’s you be God in the man, they’ll understand at last that I one day, as God, will demand to be God in them, they’ll know the truth. He sanctified himself.
Well how’d he do it?
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July 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm
Randy:
Isaiah clearly says that “I God……..create evil”. Now if evil is going to be defeated wouldn’t that mean you will have to defeat God himself if he did indeed say that, as Isaiah says he did.
You have to take the bible with discernment, discretion, understanding, knowledge and wisdom and that’s why when lay people come across such scriptures that seem to be contradictory how can Christians explain it, (for example:
Prov 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
Prov 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.);
usually they can’t because they’ve only come to know the bible textually but being textually active is not sufficient; parrots can mimic what someone says too.
The Scribes and Pharisees were also textually active, they just didn’t know what they were talking about and argued with Jesus all the time about his interpretation….. and there are lots of examples which even today Christians jump over because they can’t explain the text. Theyn regurgitate John 3:16 as if that’s enough to convert anybody….it’s not only ridiculous; it’s pathetic.
Jesus speaking:
How can believers do what is right, know what is right, hear what I say, when they constantly look to each other for approval and are not concerned about the true approval that comes from the authority within of which I said, “the Kingdom is within you”. And where does the Father reside? In the Kingdom! Axiom of equality. The Father and I are one. Where do you fit?
Luke 6:26 ”There’s trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests—look how many scoundrel preachers were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular. :-?
John 5:41-44 ”I’m not interested in crowd approval. And do you know why? Because I know you and your crowds. I know that love, especially the Father’s love, is not on your working agenda. I came with the authority of my Father, and you either dismiss me or avoid me. If another came, acting self-important, you would welcome him with open arms. How do you expect to get anywhere with the Father when you spend all your time jockeying for position with each other, ranking your rivals and ignoring the Father?
John 12:42-43 On the other hand, a considerable number from the ranks of the leaders did believe. But because of the Pharisees, they didn’t come out in the open with it. They were afraid of getting kicked out of the meeting place. When push came to shove they cared more for human approval than for the Father’s glory. Leo: Have a nice eternity
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July 22, 2015 at 7:59 pm
Is “time” subjective to scientific deduction, “no time before the big bang”. Are we not measuring something by an imperfect concept of what is known?
Has science to look further?
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July 23, 2015 at 2:16 pm
ERIC:
Can you please explain what you mean? I can’t (figure out) what you’re trying to say. Maybe I’m obtuse but I just can’t wrap my head around what you are trying to communicate.
“Is “time” subjective to scientific deduction, “no time before the big bang”.
and
“Are we not measuring something by an imperfect concept of what is known?”
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August 2, 2015 at 11:41 pm
I think (figure of speech and a little humility… But i KNOW) that the problem in Hawking’s argument isn’t logical, but perceptual.
We, who have always existed and lived subject to time (not that I am saying life outside time is a possibility) can not perceive the idea that time itself once didn’t exist. I myself can not. No matter how much I twist it in my mind I can not imagine time to have a beginning. Because beginning itself is a product of time. I concluded thus to myself that it is not possible to perceive it, but rather just arrive at a logical solution, which Hawking has done.
A big flaw in your argument is that you argue against the eternity of the universe, while saying the same thing about God. Who created God? How did he come to exist? Hawking is simply reducing the argument ‘God is eternal’ to the ‘Universe is eternal’.
Now to move on to specific points in your argument.
I don’t think logical causality actually exists in any way other than a thought experiment paradox. In the example of the heavy ball resting on a cushion, you assume that there is a logical causality. But the depression itself is caused by gravity, which is a subject of time. But, as you said, since the objects existed since eternity, the idea itself is a paradox. The only way to resolve this paradox is by thinking of the heavy ball and depressed cushion as one object, such that they aren’t causal at all, either logical or temporal.
Your second argument, forgive me for sounding rude, isn’t even a real argument. When you said, “after all, does time cause anything to happen?” and whatever followed that sentence, you were simply forming vague assumptions posed as arguments. Time is absolutely essential to causal relationships. Causal relationships exist in the dimension of time. It is like saying that the writing on a piece paper does not necessarily need paper.
About the argument about simultaneous causation, I have to say I did not understand it at all. I invite you to explain it more clearly, if possible.
Next. Hawking’s argument doesn’t prove anything. It eliminated the NEED for a creator. It is an attempt to understand how the universe can possibly exist. He can not, and nor can any individual that ever existed, explain how, even in the dimension of time, the Universe came into existence. After all, why did the big bang have to happen? Why couldn’t the universe have existed as an infinitely small singularity forever? I know the word ‘forever’ isn’t the perfect one in this sentence, but you get my point.
You should check out the book, ‘Why does the world exist?’ by Jim Holt. It covers various ideas on the existence of the universe. But like I said, and like the book concludes, it is impossible to know.
Let’s say that in fact, there is a creator who created the universe residing in his metaphysical time. But the only way to understand the origin of this creator, again, is to imagine this metaphysical time itself as having a finite beginning. And if your arguments are indeed correct, wouldn’t they apply for god as well?
And I didn’t, at all, like the argument:
“If it is even possible to imagine counting in the absence of the material world, then it proves that it is at least possible that time could exist apart from physical time.”
First of all, it isn’t possible to imagine counting in the absence of the material world (I am assuming you meant in this ‘metaphysical time’). Just like it isn’t possible for a blind person to imagine colour. If you think you are imagining it, then you are deluding yourself.
Secondly, imagining the idea of it (since you can’t possibly imagine the thing itself) can hardly prove the existence of this metaphysical time.
I’m open to further arguments.
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August 3, 2015 at 9:56 am
peripheralmuser
very worthwhile commentary.
Although I am not a “believer” type person I can say with a fair degree of uncertainty that I believe I know that Stephen Hawkings did not create the Universe; and how would I know that? Well I cannot know that, therefore I can only believe it, but that doesn’t make it so.
I have thought however with some degree of intrigue, I must admit, the words attributed to the fantasy God invention of the bible: “Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, and as I have purposed, so it shall stand.”
Is it possible that thought itself can materialize at will? But that would lead to other fantastic dimensions which even a quantum mind would fail to understand. So I am left with the conundrum. God only knows. The end.
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August 11, 2015 at 10:41 pm
I was in pre med in college with a plan to finish med school & do a 5 yr residence in Psychiatry however I did graduate studies in clinical psychology. I took algebra 1 & 2, advance math & physics incl anatomy, physiology. I’ve always pondered about how we arrived here on this earth & I’ve read all of steven Hawkings theories & though hes probably tops in his field he knows no more than me about how it all began. Hawking goes on about Singularity & no time could exist before the big bang or there was no time before that time.
This doesn’t prove anything new any more than what hubble, Kepler or Aristotle & Plato many yrs ago knew.
I’ve always been of mind that there’s something going on in our universe about time & space we’ve as yet to discover & it’s obvious to me this is what must be discovered if we are to ever know what’s happening in our universe.
Joe G Bowen
Miss Gulf Coast
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August 13, 2015 at 12:51 am
I have to laugh……..Oh why am I here.? I mean hear writing to this rubbish?
I see that people who have an entity in their brainwashed mind, cannot relate to any other thing including science without this ‘thought’ taking precedence to thwart any attempt at intelligent conversation. My profound fear and sorrow is that people who have this ‘ thouht’ will play a part in the world that I live in. But only till I die and disappear forever ‘ never to return….. get it?’ Unlike a brainless bit of rubbish in the greatest joke publication in history, so far. peace.. is good.
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September 1, 2015 at 2:15 am
Jake, ridicule is not an argument. Ridicule is typically a tactic for those who don’t have a reasonable response. Do you have an argument? Do you have a critique of the arguments in the post? Or is ridicule all you have?
Jason
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September 3, 2015 at 2:20 am
The universe did not “begin to exist” it just exists, it is existence, beginnings and ends are within the universe not outside of it therefore a universe does not have a beginning and an end. We don’t even know what happened before the ‘big bang’, perhaps the universe compressed to a singularity and then expanded only to do it again in the future.
Cause and effect are a human way of thinking, as mere humans we cannot comprehend something beyond cause and effect, it’s like trying to imagine the whole of infinity, it’s impossible, infinity has no beginning or end unless you create a starting point and an ending point, but it is still infinite outside of that range.
Why not ask: “Does the universe need a cause or reason to exist.” Before assuming it does.
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September 12, 2015 at 10:24 pm
Name,
You claim the universe didn’t begin to exist, but is an eternal brute fact, but then go on to say that we don’t know what happened before the Big Bang (which is clearly the beginning of the only universe we know). If we don’t know what came before the Big Bang as you say, then how can you know it’s not truly the beginning of physical reality?
Speculative physics is no substitute for what we actually know from science. We have numerous reasons to conclude that physical reality had a beginning, whether in our universe or a larger multiverse. A beginning is inevitable. And it’s about as unscientitific as you can get to claim that there is an effect without a cause.
Cause and effect are not human ways of thinking. It’s the way physical things behave.
Why not ask, “What reason would I have to believe that the universe did not have or does not need a cause” before you assume this is an intelligible option?
Jason
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September 17, 2015 at 12:16 am
Let’s start with “pulse theory” that the earth is at a constant state of explosion and implosion it spits and it sucks constantly.
Effect and cause. In modern every day life without the ” big Q” You can’t take the effect and turn it into a cause, yet seem to do so anyhow..pulse theory ugh I haven’t.the patience
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September 17, 2015 at 12:19 am
Let’s start with “pulse theory” that the earth is at a constant state of explosion and implosion it spits and it sucks constantly.
Effect and cause. In modern every day life without the ” big Q” You can’t take the effect and turn it into a cause, yet seem to do so anyhow..pulse theory ugh I haven’t.the patience. Why don’t you just eat peyote they planted and dive right in?
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September 17, 2015 at 6:37 pm
The questions posed by the Big Bang do not all go away even if people make up stories about oscillating universes and multiple universes. We still have to confront the fact that all the talk about universes presupposes the existence of an even more fundamental reality, namely the existence of physical laws governing the course of the universe. What are these laws, and where do they come from? This question about law increases the mystery. We need to ask, not only about the galaxies and the stars, but about the laws. The galaxies and the stars can be traced back to the concentration of energy in the Big Bang. But what about the laws, which are just as essential to our understanding? In a sense they are even more essential, because even the postulation a universe or universesbefore the Big Bang presupposes the existence of these laws, which govern all time.
The laws, it turns out, have the attributes of God. They reveal God. But that is another story.
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November 11, 2015 at 3:33 pm
If God created the universe, then who created God? Science will never be able to explain everything, but it sure is easy to explain who created God!
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November 12, 2015 at 1:24 am
nomoregolf, you need to stop listening to the drivel of Dawkins and the new atheists. To even pose such a question reveals ignorance of what you are attacking. It makes no more sense to ask who created God than it makes to ask what sound silence makes. When we are talking about the concept of God, we are talking about an eternal being. It doesn’t make sense to ask what caused an eternal being. Only temporal, contingent beings require causes.
Jason
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December 16, 2015 at 2:25 pm
Creationism nor atheism is possible, yet I believe that creationism is how we were created. It is both scientifically impossible for God to exist and impossible for him not to exist.
In this argument,
C=Constant T=Time Or=Origin ‘ ‘= Specific time frame & >I is a stoppage. In simple geometry an
O equals Step 1 after Step 2. Example – 2-4 O 4*8. The O says do 4*8 FIRST then 2-4 SECOND.
– A in this argument means, if I have a generalist timeframe, and I add A I add —time to the time that existed, without knowing how long the original time was.
Lastly, before I argue, —-> equals a transition, and Y, Z & W are all unknown periods of time in my argument, all we know is they are AFTER what the variable is before, not knowing any exact measure.
x ‘ ‘ + a —-> y —-> z —-> w O x -∞ —> x ‘ ‘ —-> x ∞
T———————————–>I —————->
C———————————–>I —————->
– X has time added to it, without knowing how much time it was started with, —- then eventually, turns into Y, then, Z finally W.
–However, this is AFTER x -∞ —> x ‘ ‘ —-> x ∞. In the middle, a point on the –
–timeframe is selected, any random point, since it can not hit negative infinity
–or positive infinity because they are both theoretical. I came up with
–something that many scientists already proved, chronological gap flaw.
–Something had to create something else in a time based order, or the thing
–created could not be created. But something had to always exist to create the
–things after it. This kills the Quantum Foam and Big Bang theory, also, the
–God theory. Because while something had to make something else, ————
–something always had to exist. However the thing that always existed had to
–be created by something else. “There can not be time before original time”
–That isn’t true though, for something always had to create something else,
–or else it would never be created in the first place. This is why in my equation
–there was a breakage at negative infinity.
If it is impossible, how do we exist Matt? Simple, something, had to be
excluded by the Chronological Gap Flaw. However, while something HAD to
be excluded, it is impossible for it to be excluded and exist.
Quantum Physics says that if a cat was poisoned, the probability being 50 to
50% either life, or death, the cat is neither dead nor alive, but both at the same
exact time. Reality collapses on itself, when you take a look at the Cat.
Saying that time always existed until the original point in time begs the
question to the answer itself, for time had to exist before the ‘original time’
for time to go past the ‘original’ time.
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December 22, 2015 at 3:35 pm
I like this article but just like Hawking can’t really prove that there is no god… the same goes for the other side of the coin… you can’t prove that there is a god… or that there is no god… it all comes down to faith and beliefs… Faith has no evidence to prove nor science has no evidence to disprove… So it all comes down to belief… what is time, what is cause and what is effect… this are all things man has given names to such occurrences… Science and Religion will never be able to prove that one or the other is right… because there is just nothing we can do to prove or disprove so this will always and forever be a battle… like someone mentioned before… there is always a wall… and we have no way to see what’s on the other side… so no one side will ever be able to prove what’s on the other side… it again all comes down to faith/beliefs. but just because your believes are stronger then other doesn’t necessarily make them right. So the right answer to this question is “We Don’t Know!!!!” The sooner we accept the fact that we don’t know and WE’LL never know… everything will be much better…
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December 23, 2015 at 3:47 pm
Rolando, I disagree with your assertions about the ability to prove or disprove God and the nature of faith, but rather than showing why I think you are wrong I would like to know what your arguments are for these conclusions. Why do you think we can’t know whether or not God exists, and why do you think faith is the commitment of the will in the absence of evidence?
Jason
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January 9, 2016 at 10:52 am
In Islam, Allah is the Time
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January 19, 2016 at 7:20 am
Question: when you say, “The ball is logically prior to the ball, though not temporally prior to it.”, did you mean to say, “The ball is logically prior to the CONCAVITY, though not temporally prior to it.”?
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January 19, 2016 at 7:49 am
JR, yes, that is what I meant. I’ll fix that. Thanks.
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January 19, 2016 at 4:59 pm
Rolando,
When you state that one cannot “prove” the existence of God you are restating what most scientists say. They say that because when a scientists says something can be “proved” he means it is reproducible in his laboratory, or reproducible under the scientific method. Obviously, no one can reproduce God. Most of the more ancient scientists, such as Isaac Newton, would not agree that the existence of God is a matter to be doubted. They would not agree that His existence is only a matter of faith.
Philosophers also say that one cannot prove God, but philosophers seriously (and accurately) believe that absolutely nothing can be proved. It cannot be proved that you and I each see the same color when we look at a red apple.
Mathematicians have a definition of “proof” that uses logic, however they will admit that all of mathematics is based upon certain assumptions, so mathematicians are really saying “it is proved as long as our assumptions are correct.” There assumptions are quite common sense (the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.) And, incidentally, the theory of Relativity has thrown the mathematician’s assumptions a curve.
In general, when the educated community, whether scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, school teachers, or etc. etc. are talking about the “provability of God” they simply repeat what the scientists claim the word “prove” means. They claim, categorically, that God cannot be “proved” and that believing in God is only a matter of faith.
Well. Nonsense. Most educated people got that way because to get through lots of school one must do very little thinking for one’s self and a whole lot of repeating what one learns from his teachers.
When most normal people are talking about other than the existence of God, including the normal people who are in the highly educated class, they usually use the word “prove” to mean much what the legal community means: “beyond a reasonable doubt”. If you will honestly study the field of Christian Apologetics, you will discover, I believe, that the existence of God can, absolutely can, be proved beyond any doubt whatsoever.
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February 2, 2016 at 5:07 pm
And to think… Hawking is viewed as the smartest man alive. How can someone so smart be so inept at thinking critically, even about one’s own theories? How can he be so ignorant?
The other posters are correct when they say that Hawking has a misunderstanding of God, he is limiting God to the physical. Sure, this may destroy many ‘Gods’ but it doesn’t affect the Judeo-Christian God who was never described as being a physical entity and never described as being contained within the Universe but rather, the Judeo-Christian God is described, always, as existing outside of it.
To speak of God, one must actually know something about the subject. What Hawking shows is a pop-culture, ‘The Simpsons’ view of God.
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February 7, 2016 at 2:51 pm
Well the time molecules and particles create out time and within out then being so accurate we wouldn’t have time but the big bang – being so powerful as to collide an astroid and an planet together and creating the earth – could not be so delicate as to get time molecules and parties right on point and only someone such as God will be able to create this sort of thing so it is proving right against your ‘facts’ as to why it is practically impossible for god to not exist
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February 9, 2016 at 9:07 am
well lets say that there was no time before the big bang . lets say that if we went to the edge of thee universe by using some kind of a light speed spaceship what are we going to see after the edge ? . and how come that in a black hole there is no time ? . and how could something like a black hole that has an infinite gravity but no volume ? . and how did time began before moments of the big bang ?
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February 9, 2016 at 9:39 am
THE OUTRAGEOUS THEORY:
There was no big bang; there is no edge to the universe just as there was no edge of the earth to fall off as was supposed in the medieval era; the default position of the universe is spherical as are its bodies; the shape of the spherical universe is the shape of an inner tire tube, donut shaped, telescopes “see” only in straight lines, light from heavenly bodies cannot be seen at the “edge” because the curvature of the sphere to gravitational influence cannot be seen like the tall sail across the ocean disappears. By earth standards the event horizon is approximately 3 miles depending on how tall you are or the height from which to look out. The universe is the same and the max distance we can measure is about 13 to 14 billion light years beyond which we cannot see that event horizon would remain constant in a speed of light spaceship; theoretically we would travel full circle and land back at earth eventually.
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February 10, 2016 at 12:38 am
Abrahim, before the Big Bang there was no time. Time came into being with the Big Bang. The “bang” was the first moment of time.
Jason
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February 10, 2016 at 11:02 am
“Our” time began 😉 We do not have the intel about what was before. Couldn´t even imagine
Our intelligence Almost Zero compared to?
And now this unverified news http://truenewz.com/breaking-news-hawking-admits-god-does-exist/
“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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February 10, 2016 at 11:22 am
Jason:
One of the great delusions in modernity is that “Time” actually began; that the Big Bang actually happened.
The most amazing thing is this: only believers can accept that there was a first moment of time and no pre-creation because believers are like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed lots of manure.
And the reason they can’t grow out of that demise is because they don’t have too mush-room to think for themselves outside the Ancient Box. That would be a blasphemous sacrilege according to the Law of Moses.
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February 10, 2016 at 11:27 am
Adj@ “Only believers or UNbelievers”?
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February 10, 2016 at 12:00 pm
Only believers. Unbelievers will not accept theories without evidence upon which to base the theory after looking at all the possible imaginations of reason and logic.
The concept of the Big Bang Theory is as unprovable as the concept of God and so for that simple reason alone is sufficient for the believer to jump on that huge bandwagon of the Big Bang.
Now please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that there is not a supreme element to the universe or its interactions and laws and life itself but for any group to try to delve into that supremacy and come up with the idea they have found the Absolute Certainty of that supremacy; that in and of itself, defies intelligence as humanity can understand it.
To label those who disagree with us as motivated by malice is to miss the point that we are not enemies as outsiders but friends in humanity trying to interact with intelligent discourse.
And so I respect your question, make no mistake about that. Thank you.
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February 13, 2016 at 8:25 am
[…] [2] Jasondulle; Stephen Hawking: God Could not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So; https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/stephen-hawking-god-could-not-create-the-universe-beca… […]
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March 9, 2016 at 12:13 am
Stephen Hawking is acting as a hypocrite by not accepting the fact of big bag theory that there were simgularities before big bang. Where did these infinite singularities came from. Mr. Hawking deliberatelt trying to sway the readers from this universal truth.
No scientific fact can prove that there was nothing before big bang, because there must be something in which big bang initiated and occured. If there was nothing before big bang how cud this enormous phenomenon which every physicist believe more than himself.
Mr. Hawking just dont want to admit the fact of presence of God by manipulating the words and improper and incomplete explation of big bang.
If science believe there must be a action before reaction then there must be creator before creation.
Thnaks and please think without being biased and partial.
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March 9, 2016 at 7:35 am
Here is a Universal truth:
Man created the Gods with logic based on man without common sense. How then can any common sense God be conceived by man without logic?
And from where does this truth come? Why the BIble of course:
Ecclesiastes 8: 17 Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, they cannot. Even if wise people say they understand, they cannot; no one can really understand it.(NCV)
17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea farther; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.(KJV)
16 When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should [a]never sleep day or night), 17 and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, “I know,” he cannot discover.(NASB)
16-17 When I determined to load up on wisdom and examine everything taking place on earth, I realized that if you keep your eyes open day and night without even blinking, you’ll still never figure out the meaning of what God is doing on this earth. Search as hard as you like, you’re not going to make sense of it. No matter how smart you are, you won’t get to the bottom of it.(MSG)
16 When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe the labor that is done on earth—people getting no sleep day or night— 17 then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it.(NIV)
17 then I considered all the work of God, that man is not able to find out the work that hath been done under the sun, because though man labour to seek, yet he doth not find; and even though the wise man speak of knowing he is not able to find.(YLT)
17 then, on looking over all of God’s work, I realized that it is impossible to grasp all the activity taking place under the sun; because even if a person works hard at searching it out, he won’t grasp it; and even if a wise person thinks he knows it, he still won’t be able to grasp it.(CJB)
And I never found, in any of the translations of the Bible, the adjunct that says: “…….even if a wise person thinks he knows it, he still won’t be able to grasp it, except Frank and Kevin and other pseudo-intellectuals posters on Theosophical Ruminations!
Give me 3 minutes of knowledge and you can have 3 millennia of belief; I will advance and you will not.
If you have one tittle of evidence that belief supplants knowledge, please, let us receive it.
Religious people, trying to prove the existence of the supernatural in the face of god myths, miracles and magic, is like shearing a pig – lots of squeals but little wool.
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March 12, 2016 at 8:30 pm
Here’s something you may be interested in. Time itself is illusory, derived from quantum entanglement:https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/quantum-experiment-shows-how-time-emerges-from-entanglement-d5d3dc850933#.66s1e94t5 In other words, we don’t exist in time. Time exists in us. It’s an epiphenomenon of relationships within quantum information. This is of key importance, because in quantum gravity, there’s a point in the universe’s history at which the idea of time becomes absurd, and all that exists are atemporal causal relations. Moreover, if we accept the idea that minds are just information processes, and that time is emergent from information (along with space), then space and time, and thus the universe, emerged from quantum information, which is ontologically identical with our minds. This is true whether we accept the singularity boundary or reject it the way Hawking does. Lastly, Hawking’s model derives the universe from psi, the universal wavefunction, behaving atemporally, essentially projecting information backwards in time so as to rebound and create the universe. This sounds like a nice atheistic solution, only there’s a significant problem. Phi is an entangled whole (necessarily for quantum gravity), containing all the information in the universe, and constantly processing it. Phi is also eternal in the mathematical formalism. Furthermore, phi is in superposition and is quantum coherent- and is thus a quantum computer. I think you can see where this is going. With over 10^92 qubits, it has vastly more computational power than any brain, and is thus conscious. Since it processes all information, it has full omniscience and omnipresence. As far as we have free will, it necessarily possesses it, and thus omnipotence. Thus phi, the thing Stephen Hawking attributes the creation of the universe to, is actually God. Thus Steven Hawking has basically stated “We don’t need a creator God, because I have a model in which the creator God created the universe from he Creator God.” WLC didn’t go there because this could sound like pantheism or panentheism, but I did, and now you know that to ask what God was up to “before” creation in terms of our temporality is meaningless with respect to our universe.
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March 12, 2016 at 8:36 pm
Sorry, when I said “phi”, I meant psi. Psi refers to the universal wavefunction.
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May 17, 2016 at 6:19 am
I think “man” has been debating the existence of God, and how the Universe began, for thousands of years. We will never know the answers to these questions, and I don’t believe we are meant to know the answers. Whether there is, or isn’t a God is beyond man’s comprehension, and reasoning. Sure, when we see the horrors, cruelty and suffering which are happening on a daily basis all around us, we may question our personal belief in God, but then, when we see and hear of the huge number of “good” things (miracles if you like) which happen, our faith in God is restored!
I really don’t think it is productive to try and “prove” beyond doubt these arguments one way or another. We should concentrate on the real purpose we were put on this Earth for – and that is to do as much “good” (in however small a way) for others, and for the planet, as we can during the very short time we are here. We shouldn’t waste a precious minute of that time.
Faith in God (however tenuous) can inspire, and carry us through the worst of times. Asking God to act to stop all the suffering is I believe the right thing to do. I’m sure that God would want us to do this as it shows that we are believing in Him!
Best wishes to all from a “questioning” believer. (does it matter what religion I follow – as we are all worshipping the same God!).
Anonymous
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May 21, 2016 at 8:41 pm
Stephen Hawking is wrong.
I don’t have the education that he does however I can explain his flaw.
Stephen States that God doesn’t exist, He would be unnecessary for the Big Bang and the Universe. Stephen also states that time began at the Big Bang.
Flaw:
We measure TIME as beginning at the Big Bang.
God measures time from His earliest memories.
Science cannot prove what was before the Big Bang.
God was before the Big Bang. God chose at some point in His time to create the Universe.
If God didn’t create everything on planet earth (not counting the Universe) then why aren’t there at least one other species on Earth that has intelligence above general animal behavior.
I don’t understand how he could not get the concept of God existing before the big bang.
I have also found that with great intelligence there is usually lowered common sense.
No disrespect meant to Mr. Hawking, only a logical opinion.
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May 21, 2016 at 10:24 pm
Oddly enough, it was the Theory of Steady State of the Universe proposed by Fred Hoyle who coined the term Big Bang.
Born in Yorkshire, England, in 1915, Hoyle was one of Britain’s best-known mathematicians and astronomers in the last half of the 20th century. He spent decades searching for answers to questions of the origins of life and the origin and age of the universe. In the 1940s, he, along with Hermann Bondi and Thomas Gold, proposed the ‘steady state’ theory, a belief that the universe had no beginning or end, but always existed and would continue to exist.
But because the evidence of the rapid expansion of the universe exceeded the predictions of Hoyle’s theory, and because of the reluctance to believe that fundamental laws were violated, many astronomers began to postulate that an explosion of highly dense matter was the beginning of all space and time. In his 1950 BBC radio series, The Nature of the Universe, Hoyle mockingly called this idea the ‘big bang,’ considering it preposterous.Yet the theory—and the derisive term—have become mainstream, not only in astronomy but in society as well.
Secular scientists blast the big bang
What now for naïve apologetics?
by Carl Wieland
It’s amazing to see how many Christian leaders have not merely tolerated the ‘big bang’ idea, but embraced it wholeheartedly. To hear their pronouncements, believers should welcome it as a major plank in our defense of the faith. ‘At last, we can use science to prove there’s a creator of the universe.’
However, the price of succumbing to the lure of secular acceptability, at least in physics and astronomy, has been heavy. We have long warned that adopting the big bang into Christian thought is like bringing the wooden horse within the walls of Troy. This is because:
The big bang forces acceptance of a sequence of events totally incompatible with the Bible (e.g. earth after sun instead of earth before sun—see Two worldviews in conflict and How could the days of Genesis 1 be literal if the Sun wasn’t created until the fourth day?)
The big bang’s billions of years of astronomical evolution are not only based on naturalistic assumptions, they are contrary to the words of Jesus Himself, who said people were there from the beginning, not towards the end of an interminably long ‘creation’ process (Mark 10:6)—see Jesus and the age of the world.
The slow evolution of the stars, then solar system and planets (including earth) in big bang thinking means that ‘big bang Christians’ are invariably dragged into accepting ‘geological evolution’ (millions of years for the earth’s fossil-bearing rocks to be laid down). So they end up denying the global Flood, and accepting death, bloodshed and disease (as seen in the fossils) before Adam. This removes the Fall and the Curse on creation from any effect on the real world, as well as removing the biblical answer Christians have always had to the problem of suffering and evil (God made a perfect world, ruined by sin). See Terrorists and Death and The god of an old earth.
Marrying one’s theology to today’s science means that one is likely to be widowed tomorrow.
In fact, the signs are strong that exactly that is happening, and that those who have ‘bought’ the big bang for its allegedly irrefutable science have been ‘sold a pup’. A bombshell ‘Open Letter to the Scientific Community’ by 33 leading scientists has been published on the internet (Cosmology statement) and in New Scientist (Lerner, E., Bucking the big bang, New Scientist 182(2448)20, 22 May 2004). An article on http://www.rense.com titled ‘Big bang theory busted by 33 top scientists’ (27 May 2004) says, ‘Our ideas about the history of the universe are dominated by big bang theory. But its dominance rests more on funding decisions than on the scientific method, according to Eric Lerner, mathematician Michael Ibison of Earthtech.org, and dozens of other scientists from around the world.’
The open letter includes statements such as:
‘The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed—inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory.’
‘But the big bang theory can’t survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation. … Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory’s explanation of the origin of the light elements.’ [This refers to the horizon problem, and supports what we say in Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang.]
‘In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory [emphasis in original].’
‘What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory’s supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centred cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.’
The dissidents say that there are other explanations of cosmology that do make some successful predictions. These other models don’t have all the answers to objections, but, they say, ‘That is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined.’
Those who urge Christians to accept the big bang as a ‘science fact’ point to its near-universal acceptance by the scientific community. However, the 33 dissidents describe a situation familiar to many creationist scientists: ‘An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences … doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.’
Evolutionist and historian of science, Evelleen Richards, has noticed that it’s hard even for rival evolutionary theories to get a hearing when challenging the ruling paradigm—see Science … a reality check. This should give some idea of the difficulties biblical creationists face.
But don’t we read, even in the daily newspapers, about many ‘observations’ that only ever seem to support the big bang? In fact, these prominent secular scientists say:
‘Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed.’
Science is a wonderful human tool, but it needs to be understood, not worshipped. It is fallible, changing, and is severely limited as to what it can and cannot determine. As CMI has often pointed out, instead of a scientific concept, the big-bang idea is more a dogmatic religious one—based on the religion of humanism. As these big-bang opposers point out:
‘Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method—the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible.’
Furthermore, contrary to the naïve pronouncements of many who should know better, it is not in any sense a matter of ‘looking into a telescope and “seeing”? the big bang billions of years ago.’ As always, observations are interpreted and filtered through worldview lenses. Those who developed the big bang were guided by secular worldview filters just as much as those who are now crying that the emperor has no clothes. They wanted a universe that created itself; their opponents want an eternal, uncreated universe. From a Christian perspective, both are in open defiance of their Creator’s account of what really happened.
SOURCE: http://creation.com/secular-scientists-blast-the-big-bang
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June 8, 2016 at 3:01 am
Why do you talk so much when you know so little? Job 38:2
How did I lay the foundation for the earth?
-Were you there? Job 38:4
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June 11, 2016 at 5:12 pm
I congratulate and respect the attempt to scrutinize and criticize the argument of Stephen Hawking using logical reasoning rather than faith-based assertions — at least to an extent.
With that said, your counter arguments have various logical fallacies contained within them, invalidating your stance. I will demonstrate why.
1. “Two types of causality”
A• You present a situation in which Immanuel Kant “invited us to imagine a heavy ball resting on a cushion from eternity past.” You proceeded to use the imagination as asked and used the aftermath as a counter example to the premise that causes always precede effect temporally. The problem is that counter examples are only valid when they can be proven to exist in reality, and this scenario, while it can be imagined, cannot occur in our universe by definition, since it requires an eternity past, and the evidence suggests no eternal past exists. It may be the case that the scenario is possible in another universe, but no evidence exists to suggest that there are any other universes besides this one, and even if there were, there is absolutely no reason to assume this scenario is possible in any other universe either. This makes your premise completely arbitrary. Arbitrary claims should be dismissed because they are logical fallacies. Being able to imagine the scenario presented does not mean it applies at all to any arguments. I can imagine pink fire-spitting dogs, but that does not make them valid examples in any argument of any sort.
B• The term “eternity past” on its own assumes the existence of time, so this cannot be an example of timeless causality whatsoever. In any case, the concept of eternal past is not very logical in our context.
C• The existence of an indentation and of physical contact implies the existence of space, which also implies the existence of time due to space-time. Because there exists some space between the ball and the cushion, there exists some time to traverse from the ball to the cushion, or vice versa, which implies that the indentation must temporally precede the occupation of the ball, or vice versus. Every case of causality is temporal, and you will see why.
2. Why is time necessary to causal relationships?
Time is necessary by definition. The terms “cause” and “effect” become illogical when you remove “time” out of the context. Cause and effect are related by time, because determining which is which requires a timeline on which to relate them. Otherwise, what is a cause? What is an effect? Both are events, or in some way related to. Events occur within timelines, not with out. Placing an event outside a timeline creates a self-contradicting idea of event or time.
3. What about simultaneous causation?
Simultaneous causation is fallacious because every example given to support its plausability assume that cause and effect are instantaneous events, which does not occur in reality. Cause and effect undergo a transition, not a discrete process. Cause undergoes a transition into the effect. Transitions necessarily imply a time lapse higher than zero, which renders simultaneity impossible. You also mentioned the word “vanishing” which is something that while may occur in an illusory form in reality, it is not true vanishing. Remember that nothing can be created or destroyed in this universe, so vanishing is out of the ranks. Cause and effect may overlap, but that does not imply simultaneity for the reason I gave above.
Another reason why it is fallacious is because, in an scenario where the cause is some starts to create the universe, and the effect is the existence of the universe, simultaneous causation would imply that while the universe is being created, thus not existing, the universe is at once and at the same time existing, which is a contradiction.
4. Hawking’s argument proves too much.
This is the only argument that I agree with and that makes sense. Stating that the universe can have no cause is irreconcilably conflicting with the law of gravity providing a cause for the universe. The universe must either be self-existing, or it must come into existence without a cause.
5. Is it impossible for time to exist independent of the material universe?
A• By introducing metaphysical time, you are indirectly begging the question. You cannot simply arbitrarily introduce the concept without there being any reason to assume the concept can be manifested within reality. You are providing an argument that proves the existence of God, and that is the First-Cause Argument; Hawking proceeds to counter it by asserting the universe cannot be caused, and you try to rebut that assertion by introducing metaphysical time. That leaves the burden of proof on you: what arguments exist to support the existence of such thing, assuming that the concept is even logical?
B• Of course, assuming “metaphysical time” is logical is the first mistake. The term is self contradictory, because by definition, time is physical. Time is a dimension of the space time continuum curvature that exists due to the presence of energy and fields interacting, and this space time was created in the Big Bang thanks to the break down of singularity which allowed for a spread of energy and fields. There may be more than one temporal dimension, but by definition, these dimensions are still phenomena of the physical world. Hence, the term “metaphysical time” is on its own right, illogical.
Anyhow, even if you did successfully counter Hawking’s arguments, your conclusions would still be wrong. Namely, the universe could not possibly have a cause. The reason is that causality is a law of nature that applies to everything contained by the universe, and the law itself is also contained as a part of the universe. However, if it is contained by the universe, then that must imply that the law of causality cannot apply to the universe itself. Because applying causality to the universe is fallacious, that means that assuming the universe has a cause brings about a meaningless claim.
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June 11, 2016 at 8:05 pm
Angel:
I am of the belief that the universe had no beginning or end, but always existed and will continue to exist.
Yet you say that space time can only exist in the universe already existing but applying causality to the universe is fallacious, that means that assuming the universe has a cause brings about a meaningless claim. Now why I do not believe the universe has a cause and Hawking proceeds to counter the causality by asserting the universe cannot be caused.
“Anyhow, even if you did successfully counter Hawking’s arguments, your conclusions would still be wrong. Namely, the universe could not possibly have a cause.”
But then you say the energy and fields interacting was created in the Big Bang thanks to the break down of singularity which allowed for a spread of energy and fields. What is the difference between creating the interaction that allowed for the spread of the energy and fields interacting or “causation” the universe? id this Big Bang not cause the universe to become the “effect” of the breakdown of the singularity, the “causation”.
“…….applying causality to the universe is fallacious, that means that assuming the universe has a cause brings about a meaningless claim.” but of course you are saying that the big bang preceded the universe “be-cause” of a breakdown of the singularity.
One other thing I can’t understand by your reasoning is the transition period argument that simultaneous causation is fallacious……….because ……”Transitions necessarily imply a time lapse higher than zero, which renders simultaneity impossible.”
I believe you wrongly use the term “imply”….referring to “a time lapse higher than zero”, instead of “infer”. If you imagine a steel ball on a string in a vacuum held at a 45 degree angle to a steel ball on another string in a stationary vertical position, the angled steel ball following the arc of the trajectory will collide with the stationary ball demonstrating the law that “for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”, the action/reaction is a simultaneous causation with no time lapse and no zero…..this “no time” lapse is not fallacious. This reasoning is demonstrated in the same sense that registers no Zero Year in the transition between 1 BCE and 1 CE in the calendar transition
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June 11, 2016 at 8:50 pm
Leo:
No, I do not think the breakdown of the singularity is the same as the causation of the universe. If a singularity exists, that means the universe exists. I never said the Big Bang preceded the universe, you are putting words in my mouth and you should be ashamed for that.
I never actually said anything about the Big Bang, but what I think is that the Big Bang is the event that broke down the singularity into becoming and evolving the universe as we know it. The ending of the singularity is the Big Bang, but that still occurs with the universe. The singularity IS the universe at its initial form, not what was there BEFORE the universe. Instead of taking about a Big Bang Theory you are not informed about, you should study it.
As for simultaneous causality, you seem
to not understand what “time” itself means. Or rather, you do not know what simultaneous means. Simultaneous means “at the same time”, and in this context, it is literal. If two events occur at the same time, then there is zero time in between the two events. If the time between two events is 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second, that’s an insanely small amount of time, but it is still greater than zero. That logically means the two events are not simultaneous.
Now, your example of the steel ball hanging at a 45° angle and hitting another steel ball that is also hanging in a statically vertical position is actually not an example of simultaneous causality. It is also not an example of equal but opposite reaction. A equal but opposite reaction is when two opposing forces collide. Your scenario is not one of those because the ball that is being hit has zero velocity, so it does not carry an opposing force, it simply carries no force.
The scenario is not opposite causation because when the vertically positioned ball bounces, it will use time. The angled ball all hit one side of the vertically positioned steel ball, and the atoms of the latter will receive energy from the impact. The energy will eventually reach the other side of the ball, and the kinetic energy of the system will apply force to the ball, creating momentum and that is what makes the ball bounce. All this happens within less than 0.01 second, but the time lapse is still greater than zero. The energy will travel from one side of the ball to the other before the ball bounced, and that traveling takes more than zero time. If it could happen in zero time, then that implies that the energy would be traveling at a speed of Diameter/0 which is presumably infinity from a non-negative perception. Infinite speed does not actually exist: we know the fastest energy can travel is at the speed of light, which is 299,792,458 m/s, which is huge, but definitely finite. So time does actually elapse in your example. Time always elapses. Simultaneous causality is impossible. Why? Because it requires events to happen in periods of zero time. But if an event lasts zero time, that leave the event did not actually occur because zero time is exactly equal to no time. The event lasted nothing, ergo it did not happen. By definition, an event takes time to occur. There is no why around that, and if you keep trying, that can only mean you haven’t understand the concept of event or of time. Also, you oversimplify situations too much and ignore the physics and chemistry behind every reaction. Those chemistry and physics require space and time.
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June 11, 2016 at 8:52 pm
Also, your calendar analogy is invalid because calendars are not an accurate representation of how time works. Calendars are discrete, whereas space time is continuous.
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June 12, 2016 at 12:47 pm
Angel:
Chill out. This is a discourse of dialogue not an ego shaming game. I bear no shame for asking questions, making observations or offering opinions. If you act as a teacher for the Big Bang Hypothesis, which you are doing in writing with presumed authority on the subject, your suggestion the student should bear shame in any learning process is not nice approach.
You said: “……this space time was created in the Big Bang….’ but you also said: “Placing an event outside a timeline creates a self-contradicting idea of event or time.” and “The singularity IS the universe at its initial form, not what was there BEFORE the universe.” Well, which is true? if the singularity is the Universe at its initial form is true, then the Big Bang could not create space time which you stated, by saying “space time was created in the Big Bang”. Both that the Big Bang created space time and that space time already existed within the universe that already existed in its initial form is a contradiction and both cannot both be true.
I quote: “Time is a dimension of the space time continuum curvature that exists due to the presence of energy and fields interacting, and this space time was created in the Big Bang thanks to the break down of singularity which allowed for a spread of energy and fields.”
You did talk about the Big Bang without saying that the Big Bang directly caused the Universe but what you said amount to the same thing and here’s why. That the Big Bang broke down the singularity and that breakdown caused the fields and energy to spread from the singularity “by allowing the fields and energy to spread”: Now if you strike a match and the match ignites causing the energy of the matchhead to spread what is the cause of the fire that ensues? Does the match cause the fire or does the strike of the match cause the fire? Depends on your point of view doesn’t it?
But it seems that every black hole has a singularity: In the centre of a black hole is a gravitational singularity, a one-dimensional point which contains a huge mass in an infinitely small space, where density and gravity become infinite and space-time curves infinitely, and where the laws of physics as we know them cease to operate.
It is most difficult to study something like the big bang that does not make sense.
Equal and opposite force does not refer to the stationary object; it means that the stationary object takes on the energy of the moving body and is propelled in equal but not necessarily opposite direction but opposite to the mobile body in transference of energy. I will concede however that there is a loss of energy by the friction of the impact but I believe that a solid ball does not take time for all of the steel ball atoms to absorb the kinetic energy before the steel ball moves. The atoms are not like a train of a hundred cars on a railroad track with a portion of space in between the couplings which need to become taut for all the cars to move at once.
To put it into perspective, Scott Diddams and Tom O’Brian of the Time and Frequency Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, explain.
Just how fast an event is depends somewhat on your point of view. In nature around us there are various physical events that occur on time scales from the yoctosecond (10-24 second) to the exasecond (10-18 second). In the time it just took your heart to beat once, the computer on the desk next to you completed about one billion clock cycles, whereas the electron of a hydrogen atom could have circled its proton about 1 quadrillion (1015) times. On the other hand, that very slow heart beat is actually quite fast and fleeting if one considers it relative to the 500 quadrillion (500 x 1015) second lifetime of our universe. Within this tremendous range of time scales, science and technology, which are constantly improving, determine how accurately different events can be measured or inferred.
What is a singularity in space?
In the centre of a black hole is a gravitational singularity, a one-dimensional point which contains a huge mass in an infinitely small space, where density and gravity become infinite and space-time curves infinitely, and where the laws of physics as we know them cease to operate. This Big Bang created the conditions for the universe to come into its current state.
If one can describe a singularity it must necessarily describe the effect and cause because a definition would include of how a black hole comes into being. I believe that the universe is without cause and as the cause of its own effect has always existed. This makes more sense than a universe coming into being by a Big Bang without a cause or caused by some Big Bang Creator God or a piece of leavened dough breaking away from another dimension loaf..
It is all so bizarre since we know so little and only know how to speculate about the little knowledge we have.
Can any of it be proved? No!
Doesn’t every Post potentially generate questions which inevitably lead to other tangents than the original Post? Through a series of questions and answers and tangents we can hopefully flow along serenely without taking our talking points as personal slights. It’s rare for two or more persons to speak with one understanding so we should try using terms of endearment that give agency to our humanity, do you agree with that?
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June 12, 2016 at 4:40 pm
Leo:
I never said you should bear shame in asking questions. I said you should bear shame in putting words in my mouth.
Before I correct myself regarding singularity and time, let me tell you why the universe is not eternal and must have a beginning, contrary to your premise.
1. All evidence suggests that the universe has finite age. It can be approximated to be 13.798 thousand of million years.
2. All the evidence suggests the universe’s expansion is accelerating, so if we go back in time, we see a contraction. The further in time we go back, the evidence seems to show the universe was more and more condensed, such that at a point it had to be a singularity. No other explanation exists. This singularity existed at the beginning. It was the primal phase, and it represents the beginning of the space time curve itself. So that means nothing can be before it.
3. Quantum mechanics shows a break down of the space time continuum at singularities.
These are the main premises that constitute the Big Bang Theory, and they can be proven as opposed to just speculated. It is for this reason we call it theory and not hypothesis or conjecture.
As for my statements of the singularity, I will concede I did explain it wrong originally, I miscommunicated my thoughts. Let me rephrase everything correctly so that my point is understood.
Black holes well described by you. They curve space time infinitely, such that this curve basically breaks down, (ergo stops) at the singularity. If you were to be “located” at the singularity of the black hole, you would be in an infinite amount of spaces due to the infinite curvature, and time would no longer flow, you would be captured in the picture of eternity. Hence, at the singularity of the beginning of the universe, the space time curve is folded infinitely and there is no time flow. That lack of time flow explains why it does not make sense to say the singularity proceeds the universe. However, singularities naturally collapse, they naturally break down, spontaneously. So this collapsing is what begins the space time curvature. So while the Big Bang starts this, the singularity does not precede the Big Bang because time begins at the Big Bang. The singularity is at time = 0, and going further backs is impossible because when you travel backwards, you become frozen at that moment of the Big Bang.
As for the ball hitting the other ball, there definitely is a time lapse in the reaction occurring. You say you do not believe that the energy has to travel through all of the atoms of the ball before the ball bounces. The issue with science is that your belief is irrelevant. It does not matter what you belief, science tells you the way things actually work, regardless of your beliefs. Unfortunately, you do not believe it, but fact take precedence over your belief. Evidence and common sense do prove that indeed it does happen that way. You can measure it. The energy must travel through all of the atoms because it needs to the other side. Why? Because in order for the ball to move, there has to be energy such that a force is imposed on the ball. Once the energy reached the other side, the energy will pull the atoms, creating force, and that force ultimately makes the ball bounce. That force cannot be created in the middle of the ball because there are atoms to the left the energy would just be transferred. It is only when the energy stops being transferred that there is force. If there is no time lapse for the energy transfer, that implies the energy teleported, which is non sense.
You stated time depends on perspective, but your example is not a good one. Using the clock cycles and the electron orbit proves nothing because those are merely two different units of time. However, the frame of reference is exactly equal, so time is being measured to be the same once you convert units. And in neither case is time equal to zero there, so my point is proven.
Relativity theory does say time is perceived differently depending on your frame of reference, but in none of the cases do any of those events occur in zero time.
The strike of the match creates the fire due to friction force, which, in order to act upon the molecules of the match, requires more than zero time, so this is not a case of simultaneous causality either.
Note: I can foresee that you will say the Big Bang was an act of simultaneous causality, but let me tell you in advance that is not case. In order for cause and effect to be simultaneous, space time are required to exist because otherwise, the concept of simultaneous makes no sense. Simultaneous means “at the same time” but there is no such a thing in the absence of space time. There is a singularity, that simply exists, it simply does, there is no why. And it just breaks down arbitrarily, and this breakdown is the beginning of of the universe. The singularity is trapped frozen is some sort of timelessness (tempted to use the word “eternity” maybe I did earlier, bug that is a little inaccurate) just like an immutable image or picture you hold in your hand.
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June 14, 2016 at 11:17 am
Your prophesy that I would say the Big Bang was a simultaneous causality was a guess at best because I also accept the theory Hoyle was advocating that used the perfect cosmological principle called the Steady State theory.
What evidence, that you are going back in time? You cannot go back in time. The age is estimated based on how far back you can view light sources and the CMB but light sources that have burned out would not be visible any longer yet the CMB emitted by those light sources and planets and galaxies and bodies, long since dimmed, are pervasive and was formed what is called the CMB; AKA, Relic Radiation. But relic radiation is merely left over remnants of earlier universe activity like a decaying forest base that become the nutrients for new sapling birth and so on and so forth does the universe go back and forth.
Some scientists calculate the expansion of the universe and extrapolates backward to a finite point but that assumes only an expansing universe, not a contraction. Now if we can extrapolate the expansion, can we not also extrapolate a “breathing” universe and that we are merely living in the expansive phase in the now time?
The expansion rate has slowed down over time some say, because of the force of gravity. This means that the early expansion was faster than it is now. Extrapolating back to a point without interruption into contraction, then one must assume the start of the expansion at the Big Bang point. And while it seems logical enough a conclusion to reach, it is just as logical to conclude the Steady State of a breathing, expanding/contracting Universe. All the same evidence you rely on for the Big Bang can be relied on for the Steady State so it is only a consensus that makes one theory of another to be in vogue. What we call the age of the Universe may also be described as the life span of the Universe at a moment of time…anytime. In 14 billion or so years, scientists may look upon their universe and see the very same things and measure the very same things as we see and measure today but they like us can only see what we can observe in our lifetime unless before then we master the broncing horse Universe and live through a complete Universe cycle. Then we would have knowledge instead of theories n’est ce pas?
Where is the universe expanding to? Will it ever slow to a point where it reaches critical mass and it stops, remains for a time and slowly begins to enter the contracting phase? And contracts to the point where it reaches critical mass, stops, remains for a time and begins the expansion phase yet again as gravity pull and energy thrust reach their respective equalizing points?
All the while stars continue to form, live and die and super nova and gamma rays and other radiation sources appear filling the universe from radiation sources of black holes and planets and galaxies and we end up calling it the CMB and that fits the big bang model, or the age of the Universe that also seems to bias toward a beginning and quite possibly an end, as people are wont to glamorize beginnings and ends even as they try to justify Creation and to a lesser extent Evolution, for some reason beyond my comprehension.
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June 14, 2016 at 1:05 pm
Leo,
1. Hoyle’s Steady State Theory DOES NOT postulate a breathing universe. I do not know what that is, but I know for sure that is now what the theory postulates. Perhaps you should study astrophysics before you start talking about stuff you do not know?
2. People assume the expansion of the universe is decelerating due to gravitational forces – it is logical. However, this is a false assumption. It has been proven multiple times already the expansion is actually accelerating. See Hubble’s Law for more information. The unexplained acceleration is accounted for by what we call “dark energy”. Astrophysicists introduced this idea not that long ago, but it is quite a prominent idea in sci fi.
3. You are correct: we cannot go back in time – not yet anyway, but our observations can. Your postulation is correct: we use electromagnetic radiation from the stars and the properties of the curvature of temporal space continuum to calculate how the past was. This, along with Hubble’s Law, and the existence of the cosmic microwave radio background is evidence of the Big Bang Theory. The astronomical structure of the celestial bodies and what we know about their formation also supports it. Some equations too suggest it.
4. No evidence exists that suggest a contraction has occurred or that will start occurring – especially since the expansion is accelerating increasingly.
5. No evidence suggests that there is such a thing as a critical mass. In fact, assuming there is such a thing is a fallacy, because we know, from the conservation laws, that energy and mass are not created, only changed in structure. The universe is therefore not increasing in mass, so there cannot be such a thing as critical mass.
6. The question “where is the universe expanding into?” is illogical. You cannot expand into a place. That thought is nonsensical. You can expand into a particular direction, but that still is nonsensical because you are assuming directionality makes sense outside of the universe: it does not. Every dimension of the universe is contained by the universe. The evidence suggests this. So there is no dimension like the ones of space time outside the universe. They would be different, (if they existed) but in that case directionality still does not make sense because directionality is framed around this particular three-space dimensions, not framed around any other dimension.
As you can see, the evidence does suggest there was a beginning to time and space and the universe itself, it is not mere speculation. It is a scientifically approved assumption, so there is nothing wrong with buying into it. If you are against the idea and think the universe is eternal, then the burden of proof is on you to show evidence that the universe is eternal.
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June 14, 2016 at 2:13 pm
I asked “where is the Universe expanding to”, I did not ask “where is the universe expanding into” your response is illogical based on your misinterpretation.
Critical mass is used as a metaphor like the straw that broke the camel’s back; like elastic after being stretched to it’s capacity rebounds; like gravity pulling at the rocket shooting straight up until the strength of the rocket reaches it’s max velocity and gravity pull’s it back down to earth.
You use concepts and theories because they suggest, what you think the evidence may indicate. You’re like the believer that takes literal what you think others say but speak as though your belief is somehow superior because of academia about what scientists postulate.
I did not say that Hoyle’s steady state theory postulates a breathing universe; you said that.
I don’t have to study The Art of Egg Marketing or The Art of Raising CHickens to know if eggs taste good.
The evidence does not suggest there was a beginning to time and space and the universe itself, it is speculation.
The evidence actually suggests the Breathing Universe Theory that always existed as did space and time itself and the evidence is twofold.
1. Proof of the Breathing Universe is evidenced because the universe is now in the expansive phase. Science has proved the Universe is currently in the Expansion Phase. You will have to wait until the phase reverses for proof of the Contraction Phase.
2. Secondly the CMB evidence supports the Breathing Universe Theory, a slight variation of the Steady State Universe in that the Breathing Universe is the Steady State Universe Hoyle postulated. The Breathing Universe is the Steady State of the Universe. Hoyle in his time could not come up with a reason to explain the CMB for his Steady State Theory and thereby was rejected in favor of the Big Bang Theory….a theory popularized by scientific consensus, but not by evidence.
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June 15, 2016 at 7:07 am
“Where is the universe expanding to?” is an invalid question because it is grammatically incorrect and does not make sense. “Where” and “into” correspond to one another in the grammatical sense, but “where” and “to” do not. Maybe you wanted to ask “what is the universe expanding to”, but once again, the question is a logical fallacy because it assumes that the universe can be categorized as another class of objects according to its shape, but such a categorizing implies there exist other objects like the universe. So far we only know one object like our universe and that is the universe itself.
[Critical mass is used as a metaphor like the straw that broke the camel’s back; like elastic after being stretched to it’s capacity rebounds; like gravity pulling at the rocket shooting straight up until the strength of the rocket reaches it’s max velocity and gravity pull’s it back down to earth.]
You have no reason to suggest that the universe has capacity rebounds or that it behaves like an elastic. You keep proposing these ideas but have zero evidence for them, and ideas with no evidence are called fantasy. I provided evidence for my ideas: Law of Hubble, the isotopic structure of the universe, the existence of dark energy and dark matter, and the CRMB. You have not provided evidence for your claims with the exception of CRMB, but you used it wrongly because the CRMB is not supportive of your stance. Hubble’s Law in particular contradicts the idea of a contractive phase. Just accept: it does not exist, and it will not. You are ignoring the evidence. Science is not religion. Science needs evidence, which is what you do not have.
[I don’t have to study The Art of Egg Marketing or The Art of Raising CHickens to know if eggs taste good.]
Of course, but that is because the taste of eggs and egg marketing are unrelated and not dependent upon one another. However, you do need to study quantum mechanics in order to understand quantum entanglement. So that argument simply is nonsense.
[The evidence does not suggest there was a beginning to time and space and the universe itself, it is speculation.]
I am sorry, but you do not get to decide what does the evidence suggest and what does it not, logic is what decides. When you approach the limit of infinite density and infinite curvature, there is a break down in the continuum of space and time, virtually stopping in the beginning. Meaning there is no time beyond that. The existence of the event of horizons supports this because it means there is no going back from it, so if the universe in the past did crunch itself into a singularity, it would either collapse and not exist, or it would remain a singularity. The fact that we are neither shows your speculations are wrong. The only possible way the universe can exist out of a singularity is if, within the region of infinite density, there is a quantum fluctuation, but this quantum fluctuation is only possible with a broken space time, or a with a quantum of space time, and this quantum of space time basically must expand to a universe spontaneously based on Dirac’s equations and the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg. But that must also mean it had a beginning because it does not make sense that space time contracted all the way to a quantum and then expanded back. It does not thanks to General Relativity.
Another thing that suggests it all had a beginning is the standard model, which says all the forces of nature were originally only one force in the singularity, and there was a breakdown of forces into four kinds. The forces are independent of space time, but the reason the forces broke down was because of space time expansion. So that means space time must have originated there because otherwise, the forces would not have been one at the singularity, but four.
Among many other things. There is incredible amounts of evidence supporting the Big Bang and the assumption that it represents the beginning of the universe. While there exist hypotheses that suggest otherwise, they are not accepted because they do not have evidence that cannot be explained by the Big Bang Theory.
[1. Proof of the Breathing Universe is evidenced because the universe is now in the expansive phase. Science has proved the Universe is currently in the Expansion Phase. You will have to wait until the phase reverses for proof of the Contraction Phase.]
That is not “proof”. In science, there is no such a thing as a “proof”, because it implies finality, which does not exist in science.
With that said, the expansive phase can be better explained by the Big Bang Theory, and all the evidence suggests there will never be a contractive phase. The expansion of the universe is not decelerating, but accelerating. Once again, dark energy and Hubble’s Law.
If you want to show that the Breathing Universe Theory (which is definitely not a variation of the Steady State Theory, you are very wrong about that) is the best theory, you need to explain how does all of the evidence I provided not support the Big Bang AND how it does support yours. I will bet $100 you cannot achieve that, only because no scientist with credentials has been able to despite the efforts.
[2. Secondly the CMB evidence supports the Breathing Universe Theory, a slight variation of the Steady State Universe in that the Breathing Universe is the Steady State Universe Hoyle postulated. The Breathing Universe is the Steady State of the Universe. Hoyle in his time could not come up with a reason to explain the CMB for his Steady State Theory and thereby was rejected in favor of the Big Bang Theory….a theory popularized by scientific consensus, but not by evidence.]
The CRMB is suggestive of the Big Bang Theory. You need to explain how is it suggestive of the Breathing Theory.
This is what you need to do:
1. Need to demonstrate that all the evidence I provided (all, not some, all of it, 100%) is somehow not suggestive of the Big Bang Theory.
2. Need to explain how is the evidence I provided suggestive to your theory.
3. Need to provide evidence that a contraction of the universe MUST occur.
4. Need to provide evidence that once there is a contraction that occurs down to the quantum and sub quantum level, it is possible to expand again out of that level with an intact space time continuum.
Until then, your theory cannot be considered as more truthful than the Big Bang Theory.
The funny thing is that you are trying to be scientific about your theory, but the way you present it suggests you believe for religious purposes. Ergo, you believe the Breathing Theory to be true not because of the evidence, but because you want to.
Anyway, there you have it. If you cannot those four things I mentioned above, then I am afraid this conversation is over. Good luck.
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June 15, 2016 at 10:30 am
You believe the BIg Bang and Singularity to be true not because of the evidence, but because you want to. Your arguments are circular, illogical, false assumptions, misguided and fallacious.
There was no singularity in the beginning and no Big Bang; therefore the Contraction Phase of the Universe will never return to something that did not exist in the first place. Gravitational pull and Energy Push form the Forces interaction of the Breathing Universe.
“You need to explain how is it (CRMB-Crumb Rubber Modified Bitumen) suggestive of the Breathing Theory.”
I never said CRMB is suggestive of the Breathing Universe; I said that the (CMB-Cosmic Microwave Background) supports the Breathing Universe.
The evidence you cite as evidence is actually a circularity, not fantasy: ideas with no evidence are called fantasy. I provided evidence for my ideas: Law of Hubble, the isotopic structure of the universe, the existence of dark energy and dark matter, and the CRMB.
Law of Hubble: Usually cited as supporting the Big Bang but cites only the expansion of the Universe, not it’s Contraction which would never go back to a singularity because it would nullify Newton’s third law of motion. All the forces that are interacting within the universe expansions will at some point
Isotopic structure of the universe: Proves the Isotopic structure of Isotopes not the Universe
Dark Energy and Dark Matter: (NASA) The expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.
Eventually theorists came up with three sorts of explanations.
Maybe it was a result of a long-discarded version of Einstein’s theory of gravity, one that contained what was called a “cosmological constant.”
Maybe there was some strange kind of energy-fluid that filled space.
Maybe there is something wrong with Einstein’s theory of gravity and a new theory could include some kind of field that creates this cosmic acceleration.
Theorists still don’t know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy. More is unknown than is known. We know how much DARK ENERGY there is because we know how it affects the Universe’s expansion.
One explanation for dark energy is that it is a property of space;
Another explanation for how space acquires energy comes from the quantum theory of matter;
Another explanation for dark energy is that it is a new kind of dynamical energy fluid or field, something that fills all of space but something whose effect on the expansion of the Universe is the opposite of that of matter and normal energy;
A last possibility is that Einstein’s theory of gravity is not correct.
There are candidate theories, but none are compelling. Other than that, it is a complete mystery.
AND We are much more certain what DARK MATTER is not than we are what it is.
Now if “what we do not know” is more than “what we do know” how can you say what we do not know suggests the Big Bang? Are you kidding? You cannot because you have no evidence, just a bunch of “what ifs” and Circularity trying to get back to a Singularity.
CRMB: Crumb Rubber Modified Bitumen
Understanding your comments gets less and less as your circularity grows more and more.
The truth is that your ideas are organized exactly like a faith based cult. Is too little faith the problem with your ideas organization? Is too much skeptical inquiry what is wrong here? I don’t think so. You seem to have no skepticism with suggestions, maybes, I think, perhaps, suppositions, just a healthy, robust acquiescence to conventional scientific wisdom of that day that defines Genesis according to imaginative ideas generated 14 billion years later, like Moses of Modernity.
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June 15, 2016 at 2:49 pm
Leo,
[There was no singularity in the beginning and no Big Bang]
Provide the evidence for that statement.
[therefore the Contraction Phase of the Universe will never return to something that did not exist in the first place.]
You have not provided one single piece of evidence suggesting there is such a contraction phase, so this statement is invalid. The accelerated universal expansion suggests the contraction phase is impossible. Provide evidence, or else you are just an irrational silly child who argues for the sake of annoyance.
[Gravitational pull and Energy Push form the Forces interaction of the Breathing Universe.]
This is a circular argument because gravitational pull is a force interaction, and so is energy push. Thus, your statement is saying, “force interactions create force interactions”, which roughly translates to, “A creates itself”, which is a circular argument.
[I never said CRMB is suggestive of the Breathing Universe; I said that the (CMB-Cosmic Microwave Background) supports the Breathing Universe.]
CRMB and CMB are the same thing. CMB is the wrong name because it ignores that those microwaves are in the frequencies of radio waves. The correct name is the cosmic radio microwave background, or CRMB. You need to explain how that supports the Breathing Universe Theory, because it also supports the Big Bang Theory. It shows there is a border to the observable universe, which means light only started to act as a force upon the universe a limited amount of time ago, which suggests there was a beginning to the universe. You MUST explain otherwise, and you have not.
[The evidence you cite as evidence is actually a circularity, not fantasy: ideas with no evidence are called fantasy. I provided evidence for my ideas: Law of Hubble, the isotopic structure of the universe, the existence of dark energy and dark matter, and the CRMB.]
You cited the exact same evidence I cited. Therefore, by declaring that the evidence I cited is not actually evidence, but a circularity, it follows that everything you cite is also circular, leaving you with no evidence for the Theory of the Breathing Universe.
[Law of Hubble: Usually cited as supporting the Big Bang but cites only the expansion of the Universe, not it’s Contraction which would never go back to a singularity because it would nullify Newton’s third law of motion.]
The Law of Hubble postulates that the curvature of temporal space continuum is expanding. This matches one of the premises of the Theory of the Big Bang, which is that the universe should be expanding if there was once a singularity. Therefore, the Law of Hubble does suggest the Theory of the Big Bang, not because of interpretation, but because of logical agreement. Interpretation does not exist in science, it is an illusion that exists. The evidence only suggests certain things, and logical correspondence in premises allows you to determine what are those.
You say it supports the Theory of the Breathing Universe, but it does not because it only provides an explanation for the expansion. You have not cited evidence stating that a contraction can occur or will occur. Therefore, it cannot support that theory because it does not match the fundamental premise.
[All the forces that are interacting within the universe expansions will at some point.]
That statement needs clarification because it does not make sense.
[Isotropic structure of the universe: Proves the Isotopic structure of Isotopes not the Universe.]
Wrong. Isotopes are not related to astronomical objects. Isotopes refers to elements that have different atomic mass. That is unrelated to the astronomical structure of the universe.
Isotropy refers to the uniformity in all directions, which is related to general relativity and to the Law of Hubble. It is also related to the homogeneity, which is also concluded from general relativity.
Large scale structure is supportive of the Theory of the Big Bang as well. It would too be supportive of the Theory of the Breathing Universe if there was evidence suggesting that a contraction phase can occur, but there is none, so it is only suggestive of the former. That is, of course, unless you can prove otherwise. You claim I am using circular arguments and not evidence, but you have not been able to explain how are my arguments circular, so that statement is invalid.
[Dark Energy and Dark Matter: (NASA) The expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.]
Actually, dark energy and dark matter are two completely different phenomena. Dark energy is a not-yet observed form of energy which has negative density and negative pressure. Dark matter is non-baryonic matter that exists and it accounts for 70% of the matter in the universe, satisfying Fermi’s critical density equations.
[Eventually theorists came up with three sorts of explanations.]
They only came up with one, and that is dark energy. Dark energy does not need an explanation, at least not for the moment. Dark energy IS the explanation. It must exist for the natural laws to make sense.
[Maybe it was a result of a long-discarded version of Einstein’s theory of gravity, one that contained what was called a “cosmological constant.”]
No. The cosmological constant was actually an arbitrary construct by Einstein in order to account for some countering force. He assumed that his theory of general relativity would yield a universe that is contracting and collapsing due to gravity, but he knew this contradicted the theory of the steady state. In order to reconcile the two, he added a cosmological constant to his equations. He discarded it later on because George Lemaitre, Edwin Hubble, and other prominent astronomers managed to provide evidence that shew the universe was expanding, so the constant could only ruin his equations, and the steady state theory had to be wrong. However, the funny part is that Lemaitre managed to demonstrate that an expanding universe can be extrapolated from the theory of general relativity itself, without needing the Law of Hubble.
[Maybe there was some strange kind of energy-fluid that filled space.]
This energy (not fluid, because fluid implies matter, and it cannot be matter because we can show that through Dirac’s equations and the Fermi equations) is what we term to be dark energy.
[Maybe there is something wrong with Einstein’s theory of gravity and a new theory could include some kind of field that creates this cosmic acceleration.]
Maybe, but there is no logical reason to assume that because every single premise of the theory of general relativity is supported by evidence, and the accelerating expansion does not contradict it, so there is no need to modify Einstein’s theory. So, unless we find evidence directly contradicting his theory, we cannot assume this premise, and there is not evidence that does contradict it, so this premise is arbitrary, and hence, scientifically unfounded.
[Theorists still don’t know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy.]
The explanation is dark energy, we merely do not know the exact properties of it.
[More is unknown than is known. We know how much DARK ENERGY there is because we know how it affects the Universe’s expansion.]
This claim is arbitrary. You cannot know how much do you know about a topic.without verification, and knowledge alone is not scientifically verifiable. That is a philosophical discussion to have.
[One explanation for dark energy is that it is a property of space;]
Cite your source for this claim.
[Another explanation for how space acquires energy comes from the quantum theory of matter;]
Space does have energy of its own. It is called energy of the vacuum, but it is in every way different from dark energy.
[Another explanation for dark energy is that it is a new kind of dynamical energy fluid or field, something that fills all of space but something whose effect on the expansion of the Universe is the opposite of that of matter and normal energy;]
The principal characteristic of dark energy is that it is opposite of gravity-imposing energy, which is why it is extrapolated that it must have negative pressure: it exerts the opposite effect of gravitational-force pressure.
[A last possibility is that Einstein’s theory of gravity is not correct.]
I already discussed this above.
[There are candidate theories, but none are compelling. Other than that, it is a complete mystery.]
There are no candidate theories. A theory in science is a set of testable hypothesis that are supported by the observational evidence and that are mathematically and logically coherent in relation to one another; additionally, these hypotheses need to make testable predictions. What you meant to say is that there are candidate conjectures, or at best, candidate hypotheses. They are not theories because they have not been tested yet.
Also, theories do not need to be compelling in order to be correct. The fun thing about science is that, as Neil deGrasse Tyson often says, “it is correct whether you believe it or not.” Science is not about whether a hypothesis is compelling, science is about what does the evidence suggest.
[AND We are much more certain what DARK MATTER is not than we are what it is.]
Again, you cannot know how much we know about some scientific matter because knowledge itself is not scientifically verifiable, so that statement is arbitrary, and thus invalid.
[Now if “what we do not know” is more than “what we do know” how can you say what we do not know suggests the Big Bang?]
Never did I suggest the unknown supports a theory.
What I did say is that the existence of dark energy, insofar, and hence the accelerating expansion of the universe, is evidence that suggests that a contraction phase cannot occur, because the expansion is acceleration. Your contraction phase, which is similar to what Einstein had in mind presumes the expansion is decelerating, but the evidence confirms that the expansion is accelerating, so that suggests the theory of the breathing universe must be wrong, and thus, supportive of the Big Bang.
[Are you kidding? You cannot because you have no evidence, just a bunch of “what ifs” and Circularity trying to get back to a Singularity.]
I do have evidence, and I provided it and explained in thorough detail. My statements contain no “what if”s, they contain solid scientific principles and laws.
[CRMB: Crumb Rubber Modified Bitumen]
Assigning random arbitrary definitions does not prove your point.
[Understanding your comments gets less and less as your circularity grows more and more.]
You have been unable to prove my arguments are circular, and I explained why they are not circular. Your difficulty in understanding my comments are not arising from circular arguments, they are arising because you do not understand what the evidence is and are under educated regarding astrophysics.
[The truth is that your ideas are organized exactly like a faith based cult.]
They are not because faith-based cults do not use evidence, they merely trust the authority arbitrarily. I am analyzing the evidence and using it to reach conclusions. None of your conclusions are based on evidence because I can cite every single one of your comments and any scientist will agree you have none.
[Is too little faith the problem with your ideas organization? Is too much skeptical inquiry what is wrong here? I don’t think so.]
I am not saying you are wrong for being skeptical, I am saying you are wrong for being dogmatic, which is different. Skepticism consists of challenging claims that are based on faith and not evidence. However, skeptics do not deny claims supported by evidence. Denying the evidence itself is not skepticism, it is dogmatism, which is anti-empirical and therefore, anti-scientific.
[You seem to have no skepticism with suggestions,]
I do have skepticism. I am skeptic of every claim you have made regarding the hypothesis of the Breathing Universe, because you have not shown evidence for them.
[maybes, I think, perhaps, suppositions, just a healthy, robust acquiescence to conventional scientific wisdom of that day that defines Genesis according to imaginative ideas generated 14 billion years later, like Moses of Modernity.]
You still have not shown how does the evidence I cited not support the Big Bang Theory, and you have not shown that the same evidence is supportive of the Breathing Universe Hypothesis.
In fact, both theories agree on one premise: the universe is expanding. The evidence I presented suggests an expansion. However, because there is no evidence for a future universal contraction, the Theory of Big Bang stands. The evidence suggests that a contraction cannot happen, so that proves my case.
End of argument.
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June 17, 2016 at 8:29 am
Fantastic read, I redesigned our blog and after that the rankings took an enormous
fall
Added to Reddit, it will be useful to people over there!
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June 20, 2016 at 7:25 am
Angel:
Evidence: something which shows that something else exists or is true.
Synonyms: proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration,
affirmation, attestation
The only thing the “evidence” you put forth confirms is, the data…but data is not evidence that confirms anything more than the data itself.
“In science, there is no such a thing as a “proof”, because it implies finality, which does not exist in science.”
The bulk of your commentary debate consists of descriptors against opposing views: logical fallacies, invalidating, arbitrary, not very logical,
self-contradicting, does not occur in reality, nothing can be created or destroyed in this universe, (including the Universe) being created, thus not existing, space time was created, illogical, The universe must either be self-existing, or it must come into existence without a cause, singularity exists which is the universe existing and always existed, the universe could not possibly have a cause, causality is a law of nature, meaningless claim, If a singularity exists, that means the universe exists, you seem to not understand what “time” itself means, they can be proven as opposed to just speculated, They curve space time infinitely, infinite speed does not exist………….
Are the galaxies, stars, planets; i.e., the components of the Universe bigger now than 13 billion years ago? Or smaller? Could it be exactly the same size because the expansion is not the bodies of Universe expanding but merely the distance between the bodies of the Universe expanding. Are the orbits of planets around stars larger now than billions of years ago? As the bodies expand away from each other? that would seem logical. Are the orbiting bodies growing larger so that their mass grows proportional to the mass of the star around which they orbit and thus gravity remains the same but the orbits grow larger as the expansion continues?
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June 20, 2016 at 8:03 am
[Evidence: something which shows that something else exists or is true.]
False. Evidence is a piece of information or data which, when weighed against other pieces of evidence or logical premises, lead to a tentative conclusion that is expressed as a suggestion. One piece of evidence, when weighed against the current background, may suggest one thing, but one month from today that background of data may be different, and so, this piece of evidence, when weighed against this other background, may no longer suggest the previous conclusion. This is why proofs do not exist in science: proofs imply finality, but finality is not possible because new evidence can be discovered and the probability of the evidence contradicting our prior assumptions is always greater than zero.
[Synonyms: proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration,
affirmation, attestation]
Half the terms you provided are not synonyms with evidence. Proof is not synonym with evidence. A proof is a deductive argument that, by using premises, determines that a particular conclusion is always true and it can never be proven wrong. That is why proof implies finality. For example, once you are provided with the proof that 7 is a prime number, that’s it: that is the end of the discussion. That proof can never be proven otherwise: not matter what logical argument you try to formulate, if the premises are correct, you will always end up concluding 7 is a prime number. This is not what happens with evidence however.
[The only thing the “evidence” you put forth confirms is, the data…but data is not evidence that confirms anything more than the data itself.]
False. The data does not need confirmation: the data is gathered from observations of natural phenomena. A set of data regarding something always implies a behavior about that something. If you have a set of data of temperatures over a decade in Arizona, and you see that the temperature increases over time, then this particular set of data about the temperatures in Arizona tell you that Arizona is getting hotter. That is a conclusion suggested by the evidence. The data is the evidence itself. There is a corresponding behavior associated with the set of data. Any person who succeeded in basic statistics in college knows this. The sets of data confirm something. The Law of Hubble is the expression of a trend that is seen from the data, and this trend tells that the universe is expanding. The scientists provided a set of data from observations, and this data, when substituted into equations that were mathematically proven independently, yielded results that show that the behavior corresponding to the set of data is that of an accelerated expansion in the space time curve.
[“In science, there is no such a thing as a “proof”, because it implies finality, which does not exist in science.”]
[The bulk of your commentary debate consists of descriptors against opposing views: logical fallacies, invalidating, arbitrary, not very logical,
self-contradicting, does not occur in reality, nothing can be created or destroyed in this universe, (including the Universe) being created, thus not existing, space time was created, illogical, The universe must either be self-existing, or it must come into existence without a cause, singularity exists which is the universe existing and always existed, the universe could not possibly have a cause, causality is a law of nature, meaningless claim, If a singularity exists, that means the universe exists, you seem to not understand what “time” itself means, they can be proven as opposed to just speculated, They curve space time infinitely, infinite speed does not exist………….]
False. The bulk of my commentary consists of the evidence you declared I provided, debunking your arguments that are full of logical fallacies, and confirming the burden of proof is on you: you still have not explained why is my argument wrong, and you HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTING A CONTRACTION PHASE. The idea of a contraction phase, without any evidence, is simply an opinion, a fantasy. You need the evidence in order for it to be a scientifically approved hypothesis.
[Are the galaxies, stars, planets; i.e., the components of the Universe bigger now than 13 billion years ago? Or smaller?]
13 billion years ago, there were no planets as we know them or galaxies.
[Could it be exactly the same size because the expansion is not the bodies of Universe expanding but merely the distance between the bodies of the Universe expanding. Are the orbits of planets around stars larger now than billions of years ago? As the bodies expand away from each other? that would seem logical. Are the orbiting bodies growing larger so that their mass grows proportional to the mass of the star around which they orbit and thus gravity remains the same but the orbits grow larger as the expansion continues?]
As a matter of fact, stars are constantly losing mass due to the massive amounts of energy they expel to their systems. Other than that, mass does not grow in proportion to space and time. It is a very basic scientific principle, and you should understand it. Mass only grows if there is mass being added to the system from some other component, but that is not the case if every part was increasing. Of course, we now know stars are decreasing mass and planets maintain constant mass, but that is unrelated to expansion.
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June 20, 2016 at 10:45 am
You’ll have to take up the definition of Evidence & Synonyms with Merriam-Webster.
“13 billion years ago, there were no planets as we know them or galaxies”
Is that because there were none or because those that did exist have expired over the 13 billion years; for example, the stars that nova and supernova can you say they did not exist or can you only say they did not exist because they have already disintegrated and you cannot observe them and not being there you assume falsely they were never there?
And how can you know unless you were there following the birth and death of stars, planets, galaxies?
The data you use to fit into your Singularity Conclusion and Big Bang Breakdown box, can the Data not suggest radiation residual of the CMB microwave radiation produced by the energy expended and reconstituted?
And can the deceleration you point to have been the contraction phase misinterpreted by dogmatic focusing only on the conclusion you have locked into?
And can the Universe not be shaped like a giant inner tire tube such that when the bodies flow around the tube; in one instance, the bodies are going from the inner side to outer side and therefore the expansion seems to occur and after a few billions of years the flow from the outer tube begins its journey back around to the inner side. If you can imagine that you can see that the inner to outer flow would appear to be expanding while the outer to inner flow would appear to be contracting. If that was the case science instruments would only be able “see” in a straight line to the event horizon like the sight of a ship receding across the ocean while you are watching from the shore…eventually you lose sight, not because the object was gone but because of the curvature of the tube. Then no matter what phase the Universe was science could only measure to the event horizon and then assume that all there is to determine the age of the Universe…the false assumption notion because you assume the Universe is not in the shape of the giant inner tire tube and of course this could explain why the breathing Universe Concept only appears to be breathing because of the expansion / contraction phases. I am free to believe that this may be true because I am not dogmatic.
And all the data at your fingertips could just as easily be adjusted to fit the fantasy giant inner tire tube Universe rotating from inner to outer, not rotating as it would rotate on a wheel on the street for distance travel but from inner to outer and we are in the inner to outer phase………..at this time period.
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June 20, 2016 at 12:22 pm
[You’ll have to take up the definition of Evidence & Synonyms with Merriam-Webster.]
Oh, I did, and there are several problems with your definition.
1. It was a citation of only the first definition in the simple section that dictionary in particular, which is in no way authoritative for all the use of the word, and the dictionary is authoritative of all official English either.
2. You overlooked the full definition section of the dictionary.
3. These definitions are only applicable to the context of daily usage, not scientific jargon. The same problem occurs with the word “theory”. Most definitions in both the Merriam-Webster dictionary and Oxford English Dictionary refer to a theory as a hunch, in the daily usage context of, “Hey, dude, I have a theory regarding the Illuminati”, which is a gross misconception of what the term originally meant. Dictionaries tend to include the non-official definitions of words as well as definitions of non-official words or non-English words because dictionaries are most practical when serving daily usage. Because people will want to most often know how to use the words in the daily usage context, dictionaries are compelled to include them even if this usage is officially or technically wrong. IN fact, the only reason why the word theory does have included the officially correct definition is because the daily usage context and the scientific usage is always confused, and that confusion needs to be eliminated. That confusion does not occur as often with most other terms, so the official uses are omitted since only those who need to use the official usage will use it, and they will hence know it beforehand, not needing a dictionary. Such is the case with evidence, which will either be used in courts and law, or science, and those who will us ethe term will know the definition a priori. People don’t actually use this word in daily usage often.
[“13 billion years ago, there were no planets as we know them or galaxies”
Is that because there were none or because those that did exist have expired over the 13 billion years; for example, the stars that nova and supernova can you say they did not exist or can you only say they did not exist because they have already disintegrated and you cannot observe them and not being there you assume falsely they were never there?]
It is because the universe as we know it today was still in very early formation 13 billion years ago. Again, the universe experienced an evolution just the same way life did on The Earth. Large scale structure is evidence that indicates this. I already had told you earlier, but you chose to deliberately ignore that evidence, just like the rest of the argument because you do not want to face the fact that there is no evidence available that disproves the Big Bang, which demonstrates that you are dogmatic.
Also, if a galaxy expires, you can still detect and measure its waves and know whether there was indeed a galaxy and when was it there thanks to the frequencies and the behavior of the waves. So your argument that a galaxy that expired can no longer be detected is bogus.
[And how can you know unless you were there following the birth and death of stars, planets, galaxies?]
Scientists know because they can know thanks to the cosmic microwave background radiation. They can also measure the oldest galaxies just as I described above.
[The data you use to fit into your Singularity Conclusion and Big Bang Breakdown box, can the Data not suggest radiation residual of the CMB microwave radiation produced by the energy expended and reconstituted?]
No, the data cannot suggest that the CMB radiation was produced as a residue of energy expended and reconstituted because this radiation is the oldest radiation that exists according to the data. If it were a residue, there would have to be even older radiation showing energy activity as you proposed, but there is none older.
[And can the deceleration you point to have been the contraction phase misinterpreted by dogmatic focusing only on the conclusion you have locked into?]
There is no deceleration. Do you understand written English? Because I have said at least six times already that the expansion is accelerating, not decelerating. So no, your question is nonsense.
[And can the Universe not be shaped like a giant inner tire tube such that when the bodies flow around the tube; in one instance, the bodies are going from the inner side to outer side and therefore the expansion seems to occur and after a few billions of years the flow from the outer tube begins its journey back around to the inner side. If you can imagine that you can see that the inner to outer flow would appear to be expanding while the outer to inner flow would appear to be contracting. If that was the case science instruments would only be able “see” in a straight line to the event horizon like the sight of a ship receding across the ocean while you are watching from the shore…eventually you lose sight, not because the object was gone but because of the curvature of the tube.]
Your description makes no sense. You will have to explain it better because what you are proposing is not imaginable to me.
Regardless of that, whatever shape of the universe you are proposing is most likely not possible because the cosmological equations confirm that there are only three possibilities for the shape of the universe, and that shape will depend on the critical density. The three shapes are a quadrimensional hyperbola, a hypersphere, or a hypertorus. Maybe the shape you are proposing resembles any of those three, but I cannot know because your description makes no sense. You will have to re-describe it in more imaginable terms. The current observed data yields a value of critical density that determines the shape of the universe to be a hypertorus, a.k.a a 3-torus. If you do not know what that is, maybe you should try a search engine, although I will warn you there exist no accurate images of what that looks like because it is a shape in four dimensions, and we can only understand shapes in three dimensions.
[Then no matter what phase the Universe was science could only measure to the event horizon and then assume that all there is to determine the age of the Universe…the false assumption notion because you assume the Universe is not in the shape of the giant inner tire tube and of course this could explain why the breathing Universe Concept only appears to be breathing because of the expansion / contraction phases. I am free to believe that this may be true because I am not dogmatic]
I assume the shape of the universe is NOT what you described simply because there is no evidence suggesting it. You can imagine what the shape of the universe is, and it may be plausible, but there is no evidence to suggest that is what is actually happening. Imagination does not mean truth.
No, you are not free to believe it may be true because doing so requires religious faith, since there is no evidence and no reason to believe it. It is an arbitrary assumption. So if you believe in it, then you are proposing a religious belief: which is exactly what I said earlier: your hypothesis is being put forward as a religious belief. Your confession just confirmed my prediction. You have an imagination, and then assume this part of your imagination exists in reality. This is the basis of religion.
[And all the data at your fingertips could just as easily be adjusted to fit the fantasy giant inner tire tube Universe rotating from inner to outer, not rotating as it would rotate on a wheel on the street for distance travel but from inner to outer]
Again, you have to fix your description so that it can be understood.I am glad you admit that your shape inner tube whatever is a fantasy. Fantasy does not belong in science, it belongs in religion.
[and we are in the inner to outer phase………..at this time period.]
No, not period, because there is no evidence suggesting it.
NOT BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT DOES THAT MEAN IT IS TRUE.
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June 21, 2016 at 9:14 am
And again: IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT, IT MEANS NOT THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, THAT ONE’S UNBELIEF IS TRUTH.
period.
note: SINGULARITY NEEDS TIME TO EXIST (not mention space, eve in the ‘smallest’ possible concept of space and time) BUT IS STILL TIME AN SPACE’
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June 21, 2016 at 10:18 am
Hello Ivan:
Welcome to the conversation.
Only knowledge can set you free belief never can.
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June 21, 2016 at 10:20 am
I am a layman and only speak in layman’s terms so please bear with me as I have not had any formal studies in Astronomy or Physics.
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June 21, 2016 at 10:27 am
Angel:
“It is because the universe as we know it today was still in very early formation 13 billion years ago.”
This is what you believe and then you look for evidence to back it up.
Everything works that way…Salk believed he could find a vaccine for polio and this belief led him to pursue his dream(imagination) until he succeeded. You grab at the label and look for evidence to support the label you grab. You will never explore the mountain unless you believe you can scale the heights to get there.
“…..there is no evidence available that disproves the Big Bang…..”
Neither is there evidence that disproves God, Leprechauns or Angels dancing on the heads of pins. You cannot disprove something that doesn’t exist.
Hoyle believed the Steady State UNiverse Theory and coined the term “Big Bang to describe the imagination. It is odd that you can imagine the Big Bang but do not have the capacity to imagine a giant inner tire tube rotating around its own shape. There’s nothing wrong with my description; it is your lack of imagination.
Now of course it’s fun to speculate and it’s been human nature ever since the first cave man watched an eagle soaring above the clouds and thought to himself, I wonder what that tastes like? That might be nice with potatoes and gravy.
We’ve always speculated about what might lie beyond the stars, an activity not unlike theology only without all the cast iron certainties. And it’s fun to speculate about the big questions like the meaning of life because you never know somebody might actually come up with the answer; so far nobody has which would explain why there are so many expert opinions on this subject.
But there’s just something about human beings when it comes to the unknown, that we just don’t seem able to wonder about something and speculate creatively maybe have a bit of fun with it. No, not us. Instead we like to decide beyond all possible doubt, without a single shred of evidence.
We prefer to nail our colors to the mast before we know if there’s a ship attached to it. And often we’ll defend that position to the death. Now if that doesn’t qualify as serious mental illness, I would love to be briefed on what exactly does qualify and why.
It’s unfortunate that many people on this planet seem to believe the very first thing they’re told and stick with it for the rest of their life. Not only does it remain unexamined but any attempt to challenge it is taken as a grievous insult.
Now here’s one for the imagination:
As you look at galaxies further and further away, they appear to be moving faster and faster away from us. And it is possible that they could eventually appear to be moving away from us faster than light. At that point, light leaving the distant galaxy would never reach us.
When that happens, the distant galaxy would just fade away as the last of the photons reached Earth, and then we would never know it was ever there.
This sounds like it breaks Einstein’s theories, but it doesn’t. The galaxies themselves aren’t actually moving very quickly through space, it’s the space itself which is expanding away, and the galaxy is being carried along with it. As long as the galaxy doesn’t try to move quickly through space, no physical laws are broken.
One sad side effect of this expansion is that most of the galaxies will have receded over this horizon in about 3 trillion years, and future cosmologists will never know there’s a great big Universe out there.
Sounds to me like we are the cosmologists and the future is already here; that’s why we can’t see any light beyond the 13.8 billion years circumference of the universe…note: the “known” Universe. Why is it the “known Universe? Because we can’t see over the 13.8 billion year horizon. We are already the future but can only see to the event horizon and there we will stay forever unable to see beyond the 13.8 billion year range……
I rest my case.
You make the evidence you cite sound like the evidence is yours but it is not your evidence at all, most of the evidence for the Big Bang Singularity was collected before you were born…and one more important point to note:
NASA. A NEW MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE suggests that spacetime recedes infinitely into the distance, rather than starting from a single event:
Two physicists are trying to revive one of the great debates of twentieth-century science, arguing that the Big Bang may never have happened. Their work presents a radically different vision of the universe from the one cosmologists now work with.
The term Big Bang was created by astrophysicist Fred Hoyle as a way to mock the theory. Hoyle thought of the universe as like an endlessly flowing river, saying “Things are they way they are, because they were the way they were.” However, the weight of evidence—particularly the discovery of the cosmic background radiation—led the scientific community to overwhelmingly favor the idea that the universe came into being from a single, infinitely dense point.
Nevertheless, the problem of what, if anything, came before the Big Bang has continued to trouble many scientists, along with questions about how it actually occurred.
“The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there,” says Dr. Ahmed Farag Ali of Benha University, Egypt. In collaboration with Professor Saurya Das of the University of Lethbridge, Canada, Ali has created a series of equations that describe a universe much like Hoyle’s; one without a beginning or end. Part of their work has been published in Physics Letters B, while a follow-up paper by Das and Rajat Bhaduri of Manchester University, Canada, is awaiting publication.
Ali and Das are keen to point out that they were not seeking a preordained outcome, or trying to adjust their equations to remove the need for the Big Bang. Instead they sought to unite the work of David Bohm and Amal Kumar Raychaudhuri, connecting quantum mechanics with general relativity. They found that when using Bohm’s work to make quantum corrections to Raychaudhuri’s equation on the formation of singularities, they described a universe that was once much smaller, but never had the infinite density currently postulated.
The quest to unite the two great theories of modern physics into quantum gravity has been one of the major projects of some of science’s greatest minds in recent decades. Ali and Das are not claiming to have constructed a complete theory of quantum gravity, but think their work will be compatible with future paradigms.
In another proposal that harks back to a now-discarded theory, Das and Ali propose that the universe is filled with a quantum fluid made up of gravitons, particles that probably have no mass themselves but transmit gravity the way photons carry electromagnetism. The follow-up paper suggests that in the early universe these gravitons would have formed a Bose-Einstein condensate, a collection of particles that display quantum phenomena at the macroscopic scale. Moreover, the paper argues that this condensate could cause the universe’s expansion to accelerate, and so explain dark energy, and might one day be the only surviving component of the universe.
Although Das and Ali’s vision appears to resolve a number of problems with the dominant cosmological models, it still requires extensive elaboration to test whether it has even larger problems of its own.
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June 21, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Ivan M,
[And again: IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT, IT MEANS NOT THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, THAT ONE’S UNBELIEF IS TRUTH.
period.
note: SINGULARITY NEEDS TIME TO EXIST (not mention space, eve in the ‘smallest’ possible concept of space and time) BUT IS STILL TIME AN SPACE’]
Sorry pal, but no, I am afraid you are wrong.
I do agree that my unbelief is not significant of me being correct. However, in the context of this conversation, I am holding the default stance, the one that does not need defense. The burden of proof was and still is on Leo, and he failed his argument in the light of that burden. He provided no evidence for his claims, but instead admitted that his belief is the product of a fantasy regarding the shape of the universe.
That said, even though my stance was a priori, I still did provide evidence and managed to defend it. Leo never rebutted that evidence, simply meaning that my argument stands.
Thus, Leo did not have an argument, and I successfully did support my argument. Unless you are able to debunk my stance, this means that, in the context of the conversation, I am correct.
BY the way, singularities do not need time or space to exist. They are devoid of those. This is the reason why the laws of physics break down – because of the lack of time and space in a singularity.
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June 21, 2016 at 4:23 pm
Leo,
[Only knowledge can set you free belief never can.]
Yes, indeed. You should stop believing in something for which there is no evidence, and instead opt to inform yourself and obtain knowledge about the sciences and the universe.
[I am a layman and only speak in layman’s terms so please bear with me as I have not had any formal studies in Astronomy or Physics.]
You declare you have no formal studies in astrophysics, yet you have claimed to have knowledge superior to those who have studied astrophysics. You have not supported that claim though. That is quite irrational.
[“It is because the universe as we know it today was still in very early formation 13 billion years ago.”
This is what you believe and then you look for evidence to back it up.]
This is a bad representation of my stance. The evidence suggests that the universe was in very early formation 13 billion years ago. Because the evidence suggests this, I believe it. I did not make any assumptions beforehand, and if I did, I rejected them after reading the evidence.
[“…..there is no evidence available that disproves the Big Bang…..”
Neither is there evidence that disproves God, Leprechauns or Angels dancing on the heads of pins. You cannot disprove something that doesn’t exist.]
1. There is evidence suggesting the Big Bang occurred. Because we presume evidence as reliable, this means the Big Bang existed. You can disprove things that exist or existed.
2. Actually, you can disprove things that do not exist, because in order to conclude that they do not exist, you must first have evidence disproving their existence. Otherwise, no conclusion can be made. You are correct: there is no evidence disproving the existence of God. Hence which is why scientists do not claim God does not exist. God is a probability: God may or may not exist. We have no evidence to support the hypothesis of Go, so we do not take that hypothesis seriously. I am not taking your hypothesis seriously because it has no evidence, but that does not mean it is wrong. It only means it is illogical to consider it. However, I can obtain evidence that could suggest that your hypothesis is plain wrong. For instance, some astrophysicist could find evidence that suggests that a contraction is not possible, which would simply destroy your hypothesis, with no comebacks.
[It is odd that you can imagine the Big Bang but do not have the capacity to imagine a giant inner tire tube rotating around its own shape. There’s nothing wrong with my description; it is your lack of imagination.]
There is something wrong with your description: an object rotating over its own shape is an illogical object. It matches nothing recognizable. Either way, you already admitted that this model is a fantasy, which allows the dismissal of it as merely a belief on faith, not a scientific truth. Discussing this further is beyond moronic.
[Now of course it’s fun to speculate and it’s been human nature ever since the first cave man watched an eagle soaring above the clouds and thought to himself, I wonder what that tastes like? That might be nice with potatoes and gravy.]
I do not know, but you surely know what it tastes like, for your entire argument has been based on a speculation supported by no evidence.
[We’ve always speculated about what might lie beyond the stars, an activity not unlike theology only without all the cast iron certainties. And it’s fun to speculate about the big questions like the meaning of life because you never know somebody might actually come up with the answer; so far nobody has which would explain why there are so many expert opinions on this subject.]
1. You are completely avoiding the argument that I have posed over and again.
2. The question of the meaning of life has never been answered because it cannot be answered properly. Namely, the question constitutes a logical fallacy, implying there is a purpose to life implies there is something beyond life for which life was made for. However, if there was a purpose to meet for life, this would imply some extra-biological consciousness for which we are meeting some requirement. Because there is no evidence that such a consciousness exists, and it probably does not anyway, the question is arbitrary and it begs an even bigger question.
[But there’s just something about human beings when it comes to the unknown, that we just don’t seem able to wonder about something and speculate creatively maybe have a bit of fun with it. No, not us. Instead we like to decide beyond all possible doubt, without a single shred of evidence.]
This is what you are doing: believing a hypothesis without a shred of evidence. This is called faith, and that makes it a religion.
[We prefer to nail our colors to the mast before we know if there’s a ship attached to it. And often we’ll defend that position to the death. Now if that doesn’t qualify as serious mental illness, I would love to be briefed on what exactly does qualify and why.]
It qualifies as religion.
[It’s unfortunate that many people on this planet seem to believe the very first thing they’re told and stick with it for the rest of their life. Not only does it remain unexamined but any attempt to challenge it is taken as a grievous insult.]
I totally agree. Which is why every belief needs to go through analytical scrutiny, and your belief does not stand that scrutiny.
[As you look at galaxies further and further away, they appear to be moving faster and faster away from us. And it is possible that they could eventually appear to be moving away from us faster than light. At that point, light leaving the distant galaxy would never reach us.
When that happens, the distant galaxy would just fade away as the last of the photons reached Earth, and then we would never know it was ever there.]
This is not for the imagination. Scientists have actually found evidence confirming this phenomena. Every galaxy that travels faster than the speed of light is located in what we call the unobservable universe. The reason why such a movement is possible is because of the expansion of the space time curve, which is not bound to a physical speed unlike baryonic matter.
[One sad side effect of this expansion is that most of the galaxies will have receded over this horizon in about 3 trillion years, and future cosmologists will never know there’s a great big Universe out there.]
We already know there is a Big Universe out there. We as a legacy will leave the evidence so that future scientists will know too.
[Sounds to me like we are the cosmologists and the future is already here; that’s why we can’t see any light beyond the 13.8 billion years circumference of the universe…note: the “known” Universe. Why is it the “known Universe? Because we can’t see over the 13.8 billion year horizon. We are already the future but can only see to the event horizon and there we will stay forever unable to see beyond the 13.8 billion year range……]
This is quite inaccurate. The circumference and size of the universe is not 13.8 billion light years. 13.8 billion years is the age of the universe, and we know this thanks to the calculations of the expansions rates of the universe at different given times as well as the CMBR. However, due to the expansion of the curvature of temporal space, the size of the universe is much more formidable than that. The diameter of the observable universe by itself is more than 92 billion light-years.
[You make the evidence you cite sound like the evidence is yours but it is not your evidence at all, most of the evidence for the Big Bang Singularity was collected before you were born…]
I never claimed the evidence as my own.
[NASA. A NEW MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE suggests that spacetime recedes infinitely into the distance, rather than starting from a single event:
Two physicists are trying to revive one of the great debates of twentieth-century science, arguing that the Big Bang may never have happened. Their work presents a radically different vision of the universe from the one cosmologists now work with.]
1. Attributing a model to NASA does not mean that NASA actually did such a model. You could be lying, so I suggest that if you want to refer me to NASA, you should provide me with a way to easily access the information.
2. There are many physicists out there who are skeptic of the Big Bang theory, but that does not mean the Big Bang theory is false. Physicists can at times be wrong and sometimes be overwhelmed by their convictions. The hypotheses they presented may be plausible and logical, but they have received little support in the community simply because when they test these hypotheses, the evidence does not support them. There have been physicists who have proposed that our universe is in reality only a digital simulation created by beings of a bigger mega-universe. The hypothesis is plausible, but that doe snot mean it is true. Because the proponents have not been able to provide evidence, those hypotheses have not been taken seriously.
[However, the weight of evidence—particularly the discovery of the cosmic background radiation—led the scientific community to overwhelmingly favor the idea that the universe came into being from a single, infinitely dense point.]
Exactly! You are admitting that the evidence favors the Theory of the Big Bang more and better than any other set of hypotheses.
[Nevertheless, the problem of what, if anything, came before the Big Bang has continued to trouble many scientists, along with questions about how it actually occurred.]
There is evidence suggesting that time and space itself at the Big Bang. If that is the case, then there is no answer to question regarding what was before the Big Bang. However, there is the Theory of Superstrings which suggests the multiverse which an analogue of hypertime and hyperspace. This could respond to what was before the Big Bang, although I already suggested that question is not very logical for reasons I mentioned in my first comment. If we can find a better explanation other than saying that time and space did not originate at the Big Bang, then we can proceed.
Regarding how did the Big Bang actually happen, we need a quantum gravity theory to grasp such a knowledge.
[“The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there,” says Dr. Ahmed Farag Ali of Benha University, Egypt. In collaboration with Professor Saurya Das of the University of Lethbridge, Canada, Ali has created a series of equations that describe a universe much like Hoyle’s; one without a beginning or end. Part of their work has been published in Physics Letters B, while a follow-up paper by Das and Rajat Bhaduri of Manchester University, Canada, is awaiting publication.
Ali and Das are keen to point out that they were not seeking a preordained outcome, or trying to adjust their equations to remove the need for the Big Bang. Instead they sought to unite the work of David Bohm and Amal Kumar Raychaudhuri, connecting quantum mechanics with general relativity. They found that when using Bohm’s work to make quantum corrections to Raychaudhuri’s equation on the formation of singularities, they described a universe that was once much smaller, but never had the infinite density currently postulated.]
This is an honest and admirable attempt to unite quantum mechanics with general relativity. It could be plausible, but they need to revise those equations so that they can match the evidence. Many scientists have tried to unite both theories and failed. That is because there are many factors in those equations current technology cannot account for.
Either way, the hypothesis is valid, but the evidence to support is scarce, which again, falls back to my point.
[In another proposal that harks back to a now-discarded theory, Das and Ali propose that the universe is filled with a quantum fluid made up of gravitons, particles that probably have no mass themselves but transmit gravity the way photons carry electromagnetism. The follow-up paper suggests that in the early universe these gravitons would have formed a Bose-Einstein condensate, a collection of particles that display quantum phenomena at the macroscopic scale. Moreover, the paper argues that this condensate could cause the universe’s expansion to accelerate, and so explain dark energy, and might one day be the only surviving component of the universe.]
This is the exact problem you presented: you presented a hypothesis that, in order to be true, relies on an assumption which needs to be confirmed. They are proposing the existence of gravitons, and so is the theory of superstrings. The problem is that such gravitons have never been discovered. They are speculated. There is no evidence saying they exist. Without the existence of those gravitons, their models fall apart. They can imagine a universe filled of gravitons, but not because they can imagine does it mean the universe is indeed filled with those. If we ever discover gravitons, this will be a huge advancement in astrophysics and science because it would be a huge progress in the quantum gravity theory. Their theory would be correct in that case. Until then though, we need to rely on the only theory for which there is evidence, and that is the Big Bang theory.
Oh, but even if they discovered gravitons, that does not mean their theory would be correct. Gravitons may exist, but that does not mean they form Bose-Einstein condensates, and it does not mean this condensate is the dark energy of the universe. In fact, Bose-Einstein condensates are a form of matter that has already been detected in Earth, and it is made of regular atoms. It is an incredibly cold state of matter. The kind of condensate tehy describe is entirely different. They will need that much evidence to support their theory. Until then, The Big Bang stands.
[Although Das and Ali’s vision appears to resolve a number of problems with the dominant cosmological models, it still requires extensive elaboration to test whether it has even larger problems of its own.]
Exactly my point.
—
Just to recap the discussion:
– We have both admitted that the evidence is all suggestive of a singularity which underwent fluctuation that caused rapid cosmic inflation and the evolution and formation of the actual universe. This model is what we call the Big Bang Theory.
– We have both concluded that, while alternatives models exist, including those which suggest that the universe is infinite, these models have no supporting evidence and are still mainly to be tested and revised. Therefore, the only model that is plausible and for which there is evidence so far is the Big Bang Theory.
This was my stance since the beginning of the discussion, and it seems that we have both concluded the exact same stance.
This is then formally the end of the discussion. It was a pleasure.
Good bye.
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August 28, 2016 at 8:57 pm
This shows such a lack of wisdom. God is outside of time. The most unintelligent people know that. Not Steven Hawking, I guess. As soon as he says “God has no time to make time, since no time existed before that. Everyone should say, God created the universe, he is outside it. He created it. Past, Present and Future is at the same time for God. Why is that so hard to understand? Not hard for me. What is hard for me to understand is how anyone cannot believe in God. The proof is all around. It’s like saying, I can’t see the forest because all the trees are in the way! Let me use my intelligence to explain how you cannot see the forest because of all the trees in the way. No matter what you say, or how intelligent you seem to be, death comes to us all, and your lack of wisdom will haunt you for all eternity. You want to be wise? Think about Pascal’s Wager, not this. Eternity is a very, very, long time. Time on the earth is short. Stop wasting it not believing. Take the leap of faith, before it’s too late. God want’s you to love him. You cannot love God unless you trust him, you cannot trust God if you must require proof before you believe. YOU WILL NEVER FIND ABSOLUTE PROOF EVER! Unless it’s too late. Hurry up and take the leap, when you do, everything will make sense. Pray – God you said all those that seek will find, I’m seeking, I want to believe, help my unbelief. Keep doing that and pretty soon, if you are honest, and are good, and want to know God, slowly, everything starts to make sense, when you seek with the right attitude.
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September 20, 2016 at 5:34 pm
It is amusing that theists will have faith despite innumerable times their God is disproven. They have never and will discover nothing in their lifetime. Earlier they refused to believe that sun is centre of solar system. Then still after thousands year they now believe in big bang, earlier it was creation in 7 days. Now when Hawking is telling that space and time were created after big bang the theists are postulating some other kind of time for their God. Faith in any thought stops human to even look into other option.
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September 21, 2016 at 2:08 am
The thing is – Stephen Hawking appears to assume his logic is the highest form of comprehension there is (by his logic I mean the level of comprehension man operates in). But I think there are levels of comprehension. We see it when we look at lower levels of life than our own – a dog for example is not capable of understanding a internal combustion engine, but mans mind can. We make the mistake of thinking we are at the apex when more correctly a question like ‘what existed before the big bang’ actually proves there must be a higher level of comprehension than ours – otherwise that question has no possible answer beyond ridiculous ones we attempt to jam through. Time has no beginning or end. Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Its all impossible – there must be a higher level of comprehension than ours – and that’s fine.
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September 21, 2016 at 9:09 am
dale jackman
According to the law of conservation of mass, during any physical or chemical changes, the total mass of the products is equal to the total mass of the reactants. But in nuclear fusion reaction if considered an example, energy that sun emits in its core is due to collision of hydrogen nuclei and formation of helium nuclei. Here conservation of mass is not obeyed as certain part of mass is converted into energy. So, law of conservation of mass is violated here. Then law of conservation must be redefined as: during any physical or chemical change, the total mass of the reactants is equal to the total mass of reactants provided mass has not undergone conversion into energy.
SOME POINTS TO PONDER:
If you consider the mass-energy equivalence that Einstein discoverd there is no contradiction: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence – Philipp Sep 18 ’13 at 15:29
Consider e=mc^2 !! – ashu Sep 18 ’13 at 15:36
1
This law apilicable only chemical reactions. If gases are products ,reactants shuld be take in closed system. – user4748 Mar 7 ’14 at 11:38
1
Since nuclear physics is physical the first sentence should read; “According to the law of conservation of mass, during any mechanical or chemical changes,…” – Taemyr Jul 7 ’14 at 9:07
4
The mass loss/gain in chemical reactions is extremely small, but it exists according to relativity. For example, the complete detonation of 100 g
100g of TNT produces approximately 99.99999999 g. 99.99999999g
of chemical products, with the remaining 0.00000001 g.
0.00000001g of the initial mass transformed into energy. In chemical reactions, the mass difference between all the reactants and all the products is on the order of 0.1 parts per billion or less, so mass may seem conserved, but it is not. Compare this to nuclear fusion, where the mass difference can reach the order of 1%. – Nicolau Saker Neto Jun 21 ’15 at 15:56
Nuclear reactions appear to violate both the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy because mass is converted into energy or vice versa.
However, the concept of mass-energy equivalence that emerges as a consequence of Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity makes the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy special limiting cases of the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy. Since mass is now a form of energy, we can convert back and forth as long as there is no net loss between the two.
The equivalence of mass and energy comes from Einstein’s famous E=mc2
E=mc2
where c is the speed of light (in a vacuum). answered Sep 18 ’13 at 18:54
Ben Norris
26k357116
The Law of Conservation of Mass is no longer valid in its original formulation under the mass-energy equivalence given by E=mc2
E=mc2 – not only is it not violated, it no longer even applies. – Ben Norris Sep 19 ’13 at 1:40
… However, Conservation of Mass is still taught in elementary chemistry, because chemical reactions do not result in the changing of atoms from one element to another (or even one isotope to another) as nuclear reactions do. As such, CoM and CoE hold for chemical reactions, and the laws remain useful teaching tools in this capacity. – KeithS Sep 19 ’13 at 18:22
By considering that mass and energy are the two faces of the same coin then the conservation is valid according to Einstein concept.
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September 21, 2016 at 11:27 am
Dear James,
1. Eternity does not exist. If eternity was a possible form of existence, then the universe could have an infinite past, and a creator would be unnecessary.
2. There is no proof of God. You have a pre-concieved belief in God, so everything will be erroneously interpreted as evidence of it even if it isn’t. it’s called confirmation bias.
Dear Dale Jackman,
Conservation is violated in the quantum scale. Regardless, you cannot apply conservation at t=0 when the Big Bang occurs since at that moment the universe does not exist. Creators are unnecessary and impossible in fact. Anyway, levels of comprehension are a lot a BS. It all reduces down to evolutionary theory.
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October 2, 2016 at 11:06 pm
Although I agree that Hawking’s explanation has many flaws, I don’t think it’s right to assume God created the universe. Both Hawking’s and the writer of this blog beg the question. How did gravity come about and who or what created God? How do you know it wasn’t multiple Gods? To say the universe or God has always existed begs the question. What excuses God from the notion of infinite regress? You have no scientific evidence if you say God was the prime cause. Also if God is the creator of the universe then how did he obtain the knowledge to do so? The suggestion that God is omniscient means that God also knows every single thing that every human will ever do which in turn makes the notions of free will and Heaven incompatible. I don’t see why we can’t accept that we just don’t have a scientific answer to everything yet. I am an agnostic atheist. I can’t fully disprove that God doesn’t exist but I most likely think that the universe wasn’t created by him. To put aside science and say that God existed within some sort of reality outside the realm of physical time is logically fallacious. It is an argument from ignorance. Although I loved this blogs very logical counter-argument to Hawkings assertions, it still does not provide a satisfactory answer to how the universe came to exist.
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October 3, 2016 at 12:28 pm
Andrew:
In my opinion:
How the universe came to exist? is a fallacy question. Mainly because one must assume that something came into exist but beginnings and ends are human mind frailties based on life and death cycles as we know it to be……they start and they end and while everything in the garden comes and goes, does not the garden remain to provide the cyclical romance to the procreative effect?
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November 8, 2016 at 6:35 pm
Einstein once said “Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better”
There is nothing in reality, nothing on this earth, nothing within our grasp or within the cosmos that isn’t created and beyond that everything has multiple creators. From the gasses you breath to the sun that warms you and the dirt that grows food that feeds you to the server your site is on is created. And to the simple non understanding mind one just may consider those creators to be gods.
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November 9, 2016 at 7:13 am
To believe in a creator is to imagine the ship that brought you to earth. I cannot imagine that ship.
To believe in a creator is to believe there was a first ship; I cannot imagine a first ship.
The essence of wisdom is knowledge, the essence of knowledge is knowing what you do not know as much as it is to know what you do and the humility of ego is admitting when you do not know. Only the Drug of Absolute Certainty leads man to claim they know the Creator.
What we do not know nor can we know a creator different than ourselves and apart from ourselves.
Consciousness is being aware you are alive; reason tries to understand how life exists but cannot reason a first life; I cannot reason a first life. First life does not make sense; that life can only come from life puts life in the realm of infinity and I cannot imagine infinity.
I can only imagine infinity if I have it or was part of it.
And so I begin my discourse with the Seven Point Plan introduction:
[1] MAN imagined God, created God in his own image and gave Him the Perfect Attributes of Deity.
[2] THESE are those attributes which Man aspires to but the likes of which Man has also determined to be impossible to achieve
[3] MAN sets the highest standards for his God and then pre-ordains those standards to be unreachable by Man using the phrase “God Willing” thus insuring
[4] THE justification for Man as he goes about his business of being just the opposite of the attributes he has given to his God
[5] BEING stupidly obtuse, unforgiving, greedy, a liar, a cheat, a stealer, a killer, a deceiver and a most hateful and
[6] MURDEROUS character of which even among his own kind many cannot believe
[7] HE IS capable of the worse acts of atrocity on his fellow man, the environment and the life forms which support him
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November 9, 2016 at 7:20 am
Raven:
THE GATES OF ZYGOTE:
Once upon a time I was floating in a beautiful milky cloud of peace when suddenly, I received a telepathic communication, no words, no signs, just an understanding that: “The time has come”. Immediately upon receiving the communication I was thrust into a wormhole and emerged out into the dazzling light of a distant shimmering angel, it was an irresistible invitation and I hastened to propel forward.
I reached the angel; the essence of my being enveloped the embrace: we became as one; as suddenly as in the milky cloud, I was yet again overwhelmed with understanding: I had reached a destiny; I was in warmth and security; I was Home: The Gates of Zygote, from whence I would eventually be birthed so that all there is of Good is available to s/he who is available to all there is of Good. And that’s all it takes for you to dream the dream too when you see the Son of Man returning to retrieve men from their folly.
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November 20, 2016 at 5:20 pm
This is absurd!! He didn’t have time to create the universe?? Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth! And since the earth isn’t as old as people say it is, it’s about as old as what the Bible says it is, God had plenty of TIME to make the universe.Considering the fact that he did it in 66 days!!
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November 23, 2016 at 1:17 am
I’m sure someone has made this observation, but lets see if Hawkings’ really is a genius as far as philosophical logic. “God couldn’t have created the universe because there was no time for him to do so”. Hawking is actually asserting that the creation of time was beyond God’s ability but”if” creating time wasnt beyond God’s ability the universe could have been created by God? Simply brilliant. Hawking believes creating time is more difficult than creating the universe. First this is a fallacy of equivocation. The universe is observed, tested, identified as to what it is made up of. Observable matter and energy. Time however isn’t observed so it as a thing isn’t analogous to creating some other things.
Creating time is too difficult for God, but he could create the universe if time was created first. Sorry sir, but you simply have the most logically inept example of an argument as to why God could not have created the universe.
Btw, I have read many stories of students telling Hawkings how inconsistent his philosophical views are, basically they are logically bereft of any reasoning that would reflect genius.
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November 23, 2016 at 9:37 am
1. The creation of time is equally as difficult as the creation of the universe because creation is a causal force, and causality requires the preexistence of time, so time cannot be a created property of the universe. Therefore, the universe could not be created. The law of causality states: the cause of any occurrence must precede its effect. The act of preceding requires the existence of time: to precede means to be before. There cannot be a before if time does not exist: time exists because one can place the cause and the effect one after the other in a timeline. If God is a First Cause, then God is by definition not timeless, because the Law of Causality requires any cause to not be timeless. However, if God is not timeless, then God cannot be the First Cause, as God would then require a cause. If God is timeless, then God cannot be a creator of time or of the universe. There is a contradiction in proclaiming that God is the First Cause and that God created time and the universe.That is the authentic logical fallacy of the creationist argument.
2. Time actually is observed, in opposition to what you stated. Time is not a mathematical construct, but a kinematic property that can be observed when objects are in motion and one can measure time dilation as a function of their velocity relative to the frame of reference. This is thanks to the theory of special relativity by Albert Einstein.
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November 23, 2016 at 9:40 am
Dear Candy Smith,
1. The Earth is as old as people say it is, and it can be attested given the scientific evidence.
2. The Bible is not a scientific book and there are no sources confirming the Bible is a truthful book.
3. You misunderstood the concept of not having time. God did not have time to create the universe because did not exist at the moment of creation. God did not have 66 days, and the scientific evidence proves Genesis was wrong. Days did not exist when the universe first existed because a day is the rotation of the planet earth on its own axis, but the planet Earth did not exist.
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December 1, 2016 at 7:11 pm
Hawking! Your wrong! Lol Before time there was ONLY God, so everything is made of God! There isn’t anything else to make up anything!
And time is created by YOU! Shifting in and out of parallel universes, a billion times a second according to your vibrational choices, and choices are based on beliefs and definitions that we believe service us. So our beliefs effects our DNA, and our DNA is the antenna to heaven, telling heaven where you deserve to align. Positive and closer to GOD, or down at the bottom, with your fear-based beliefs znd definitions that YOU believe serve you!
BTW, fear-based beliefs are mental blocks to clarity that allow you to equate Cosmic ideologies like math problems Or music.
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January 1, 2017 at 2:34 pm
Could I use an excerpt from this in a video I am making?
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January 1, 2017 at 9:33 pm
Questions to baffle the Establishment theory of the Big Bang or an actual beginning of the Universe.
1. If the visible universe is almost 45 billion light years in radius Earth then must be the center of the universe.
2. The Hubble telescopic view of the universe has clawed all the way back 13.2 billion years to visibly observe the universe when it was only 500 million years old. When technology gets a little better than its current capacity my theory is that we will begin to see back further than the estimated theorized age of the universe @13.7 billion years and we will see ourselves before we were birthed!
3. Einstein’s special theory of relativity states that nothing with mass can go faster than the speed of light, and as far as physicists can tell, the Universe abides by that rule. IF that were true then how can the universe, which is composed of cosmic mass, of planets, of stars and galaxies and the like expand faster than the speed of light and I wonder how much faster than the speed of light is that expansion presumed to be expanding?
4. Is the cosmic microwave background (CMB) being constantly diluted because of Entropy?
5. Is the normal evolution of the universe; e.g., birth and death of stars, galaxies and nebulae formations and nuclear fusions generating cosmic background radiation? Methinks it is.
Cosmic background radiation is electromagnetic radiation from the sky with no discernible source. Electromagnetic waves, hence cosmic background radiation, are produced whenever charged particles are accelerated, and these waves can subsequently interact with any charged particles. EM waves carry energy, momentum and angular momentum away from their source particle and can impart those quantities to matter with which they interact. This indicates to me that cosmic background radiation may not be from a Big Bang Singularity but from normal evolutionary processes of the Universe unfolding as it should. It would seem reasonable to assume that minus the Hubble discovery of expansion the universe has been going through for years, the early universe would appear more dense and less diluted because of entropic effect.
Think of it this way. In a mansion of thousands of square feet of air volume and you flatulate (fart) a huge baked bean bubble of methane, why the odor would very sweetly and quickly fill the bathroom but when you opened the doors to the other rooms in the mansion allowing for the radiating methane to be absorbed following the Law of Entropy, the escaping, expanding methane would dissipate rapidly as the greater volume of air absorbed the molecules of methane and one could imagine that as the air molecules grew in volume the methane odor molecules would become less discernible and less perceptible because of the greater volume of air absorbing it. And by the time you reached grandma’s room to wake her for dinner, she would in all likelihood be spared the olfactory essence of aroma radiating from the downstairs bathroom. On the other hand if you continued to stream methane bubbles as you walked to grandma’s room by the time you opened the door she might be overcome by the sweetness of smell casting its spell and force her to hide under the blankets until the air conditioner normalized the environment.
Another example of this definition of entropy is illustrated by spraying perfume in the corner of a room. We all know what happens next. The perfume will not just stay in that corner of the room. The perfume molecules will eventually fill up the room. The perfume went from an ordered state to a state of disorder by spreading throughout the room.
Thus could this analogy apply to the cosmic background radiation being theorized as less dense today than yesteryear be explained by the same principle yet be constantly generated by the interaction of gases and elements within the evolving system rather than from a Big Bang Singularity and would be logical. In another words, CMBR is generated from cosmic sources but would have less impact for scientific research funding for instance, than the more spectacular MEGA Big Bang theory in the case of science or the GODLY creation in case of religion.
Anybody?
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January 20, 2017 at 10:10 am
Out of interest, do you read any search engine optimisation bloggers?
I can’t find useful help which I can action
Shared on Reddit, it will be useful to people over there
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February 10, 2017 at 6:21 pm
In short reply to Hawking: the earth is a container; the universe contains it, and is itself a larger container. If Hawking is going to talk about theism he should cite a reference. Here is one from Paul the Apostle who also was highly educated and prolific in writing:
2 Corinthians 12:2
“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.”
There is something that contains the universe (a third “heaven”) and so there was something that contained the singularity.
PS: Also worthy of review are psalms 50:4, and Ephesians 4:10. The assumption that there is nothing beyond the universe is challenged over millennia by diverse authors.
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February 10, 2017 at 6:59 pm
Thanks for finally talking about >Stephen Hawking: God Could
not Create the Universe Because There Was No Time for Him to Do So | Theo-sophical Ruminations <Liked it!
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April 11, 2017 at 9:52 pm
This is entirely flawed, because it implies that God must exist within our universe, and that he can not possess any divine power that is outside the boundaries of logic and all-knowing human existence. For all we know, God could have made it physically impossible for us to figure out how he went about his creation, because if we did learn about it, then there could be more than just disaster on this planet. Entirely galaxies could be wiped and torn apart due to human greed. It is to be assumed that if there is a God, then he possesses qualities which we can’t determine due to not being as powerful.
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April 25, 2017 at 12:32 pm
I am A student of science still I am saying that there is something about this creation which is behind all of us only GOD can answer
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April 25, 2017 at 2:35 pm
Science will discover what’s behind all of sand this talk about creation if we can outlive North Korean Type Nuclear Dictators who’s egos are too big for discipline to control in which case we will be left unto Karma to recompense their idiocy.
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April 26, 2017 at 5:17 pm
Dear Richard,
[Before time there was ONLY God, so everything is made of God!]
This is impossible, because there cannot be such a thing as “before time”, since in order to exist before anything, time must exist so that there can be a ‘before’.
[There isn’t anything else to make up anything!]
There’s no logical reason to assume that there needs to be anything to make up anything else.
[And time is created by YOU!]
Relativistic mechanics disprove this.
[Shifting in and out of parallel universes, a billion times a second according to your vibrational choices, and choices are based on beliefs and definitions that we believe service us.]
1. There is no evidence suggesting there exist parallel universes.
2. What is a vibrational choice? That isn’t a thing.
3. Choices are indeed beliefs that serve us, just like the belief in God, which can be proven equally as fallacious as any other belief.
[ So our beliefs effects our DNA, and our DNA is the antenna to heaven, telling heaven where you deserve to align.]
1. Beliefs don’t affect our DNA, our DNA affects our beliefs.
2. The antenna to heaven can’t be a physical object.
3. All the evidence suggests heaven, as described by all the Abrahamic religions, doesn’t exist.
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April 26, 2017 at 5:32 pm
Questions to baffle the Establishment theory of the Big Bang or an actual beginning of the Universe.
[1. If the visible universe is almost 45 billion light years in radius Earth then must be the center of the universe.]
The Earth is the center of the observable universe because the observer is by definition the center of the observable universe. However, the complete universe, which also includes the non-observable universe, has no center.
[2. The Hubble telescopic view of the universe has clawed all the way back 13.2 billion years to visibly observe the universe when it was only 500 million years old. When technology gets a little better than its current capacity my theory is that we will begin to see back further than the estimated theorized age of the universe @13.7 billion years and we will see ourselves before we were birthed!]
The reason we can only see back 13.7 thousand million years in the past is not due to telescope limitations, but because of the properties of the rate of expansion of the universe.
[3. Einstein’s special theory of relativity states that nothing with mass can go faster than the speed of light, and as far as physicists can tell, the Universe abides by that rule. IF that were true then how can the universe, which is composed of cosmic mass, of planets, of stars and galaxies and the like expand faster than the speed of light and I wonder how much faster than the speed of light is that expansion presumed to be expanding?]
Space-time itself has no mass, so it can expand faster than light. The expansion is given by Hubble’s Law.
[4. Is the cosmic microwave background (CMB) being constantly diluted because of Entropy?]
No. The CMBR is not a closed system, so it does not abide by the Laws of Thermodynamics, which only apply to closed systems.
[5. Is the normal evolution of the universe; e.g., birth and death of stars, galaxies and nebulae formations and nuclear fusions generating cosmic background radiation? Methinks it is.]
Everything generates radiation, but background radiation of the CMBR type is unique due to its isotropy, homogeneity, and the wavelength of its radiation.
[Cosmic background radiation is electromagnetic radiation from the sky with no discernible source.]
The source is discernible. It is the cosmic inflation that occurred due to the Big Bang.
[Electromagnetic waves, hence cosmic background radiation, are produced whenever charged particles are accelerated, and these waves can subsequently interact with any charged particles.]
The cosmic microwave background radiation is a form of electromagnetic wave, but not all electromagnetic waves are CMBR.
[EM waves carry energy, momentum and angular momentum away from their source particle and can impart those quantities to matter with which they interact. This indicates to me that cosmic background radiation may not be from a Big Bang Singularity but from normal evolutionary processes of the Universe unfolding as it should.]
The CMBR was discovered by subtracting the radiation from such evolutionary processes from the data.
[It would seem reasonable to assume that minus the Hubble discovery of expansion the universe has been going through for years, the early universe would appear more dense and less diluted because of entropic effect.]
You just stated what George Lemaitre stated when he proposed the Big Bang Theory.
[Think of it this way. In a mansion of thousands of square feet of air volume and you flatulate (fart) a huge baked bean bubble of methane, why the odor would very sweetly and quickly fill the bathroom but when you opened the doors to the other rooms in the mansion allowing for the radiating methane to be absorbed following the Law of Entropy, the escaping, expanding methane would dissipate rapidly as the greater volume of air absorbed the molecules of methane and one could imagine that as the air molecules grew in volume the methane odor molecules would become less discernible and less perceptible because of the greater volume of air absorbing it. And by the time you reached grandma’s room to wake her for dinner, she would in all likelihood be spared the olfactory essence of aroma radiating from the downstairs bathroom. On the other hand if you continued to stream methane bubbles as you walked to grandma’s room by the time you opened the door she might be overcome by the sweetness of smell casting its spell and force her to hide under the blankets until the air conditioner normalized the environment.]
The density of the universe is in fact decreasing. You’re not contradicting the Big Bang Theory, you’re supporting by using this argument.
[Another example of this definition of entropy is illustrated by spraying perfume in the corner of a room. We all know what happens next. The perfume will not just stay in that corner of the room. The perfume molecules will eventually fill up the room. The perfume went from an ordered state to a state of disorder by spreading throughout the room.]
[Thus could this analogy apply to the cosmic background radiation being theorized as less dense today than yesteryear be explained by the same principle yet be constantly generated by the interaction of gases and elements within the evolving system rather than from a Big Bang Singularity and would be logical.]
That is an interesting observation, but the argument is flawed simply because, as I said, the CMBR is not a closed system. Plus, electromagnetism behaves nothing like matter or heat does.
[In another words, CMBR is generated from cosmic sources but would have less impact for scientific research funding for instance, than the more spectacular MEGA Big Bang theory in the case of science or the GODLY creation in case of religion.]
But science isn’t about funding. If it were, every scientist in the world would work for oil companies.
[Anybody?]
I’ve addressed all of your questions.
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April 26, 2017 at 5:36 pm
Dear Dan young,
[In short reply to Hawking: the earth is a container;…]
In what context?
[…the universe contains it, and is itself a larger container. If Hawking is going to talk about theism he should cite a reference.]
The references are unnecessary for his argument.
[Here is one from Paul the Apostle who also was highly educated and prolific in writing:
2 Corinthians 12:2
“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.”]
He may have been educated in writing, but extremely uneducated in science and philosophy.
[There is something that contains the universe (a third “heaven”) and so there was something that contained the singularity.]
There is no evidence to suggest such.
[PS: Also worthy of review are psalms 50:4, and Ephesians 4:10.]
The Bible can’t compete against science.
[The assumption that there is nothing beyond the universe is challenged over millennia by diverse authors.]
And these authors have been debunked and disproven over the millennia by even more educated authors.
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April 26, 2017 at 5:42 pm
Dear Luis,
[This is entirely flawed, because it implies that God must exist within our universe, and that he can not possess any divine power that is outside the boundaries of logic and all-knowing human existence.]
1. It is impossible to exist without the universe, because the property of such existence can itself be constructed in terms of nature.
2. If divine power is outside the boundaries of logic, then it’d be impossible to claim such a thing in the first place since that property in itself is a logical argument and formalism, and divine power would’ve to remain an undefined phrase.
[For all we know, God could have made it physically impossible for us to figure out how he went about his creation, because if we did learn about it, then there could be more than just disaster on this planet.]
How would there be any destruction?
[Entirely galaxies could be wiped and torn apart due to human greed.]
This’d happen regardless of our knowledge of how God created the universe.
[It is to be assumed that if there is a God, then he possesses qualities which we can’t determine due to not being as powerful.]
The problem is that the claim that God possesses qualities which can’t be determined logically is itself a quality God possesses that we determine logically, thus being a self-undermining statement and thus a complete absurdity.
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April 27, 2017 at 10:43 am
Angel:
Absurdity indeed but Believers know no absurd hole to jump into that supports their belief…..just look at the history of mythology from whence modern religions sprang or are offshoots of that absurdity.
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June 11, 2017 at 6:23 pm
Time to one who has ever existed is meaningless. The fact that not even Hawking can conceive of a past infinite reality is hardly proof of anything. Think about it. The universe had a beginning of some kind or a point of transition from a singularity. So, it is intuitively logical to acknowledge that a greater reality exists which no beginning and has ever existed which most likely prompted the finite reality we can perceive.
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June 12, 2017 at 7:43 pm
Kimberly:
You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about I certainly don’t!
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June 14, 2017 at 6:20 am
Kimberly:
One cannot exist before time. U misunderstand what time is. Time is merely a relationship between two events. For an event to exist before another, that event must have a lesser time coordinate than the latter. However, we have evidence that suggests that time began with th beginnng of the universe itself, hence that has the null coordinate. There are no negative-valued coordinates because that is where time BEGINS to exist. So one cannot exist before time because that requires a negative coordinate, which is not real.
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June 14, 2017 at 9:46 am
the relationship between two events is consequential rather than chronological
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June 14, 2017 at 9:51 am
@Kimberly,
That is obviously inaccurate. Two relatively acausal events are by necessity and definition unrelated consequentially, only chronologically. You’re confusing time with causality. Time is required for causality to exist, but there exists restriction conditions for causality to occur, whereas time itself exists independently of causal relations. So no, an event that wasn’t caused by another still have a period in between them, and that’s a chronological relationship expressed by time.
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June 14, 2017 at 11:34 am
No event exists without causality and all are related in some manner. Time is irrelevant within that relationship. Thus, one can intuitively acknowledge that reality exists but in summation is irrespective of time and space. The fact that we have the capacity to intuitively acknowledge that such reality exists doesn’t extrapolate to the existence of time OR space.
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June 14, 2017 at 12:50 pm
@Kimberly:
Except U’re wrong, because there literally is scientific evidence showing that time and space are an integral part of reality, and it is a fact that causality requires time. Causality is the phenomenon of an event that precedes another event directly, and the act of preceding or occurring “before” requires the concept of time. Without time, there is no such a thing as a before of an after. And the proof that the universe is causal is literally only scientific.
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June 15, 2017 at 8:13 am
What you haven’t taken into account is the reality of an infinite past (obviously something we as beings with a beginning cannot possibly comprehend). The potential that reality has EVER existed negates any requirement of time or space other than for a subsequently temporal contrivance. You (and I) easily perceive the temporal contrivance but NOT the reality of permanent existence (not only an infinity of future but an infinity of past) which is more intuitively acknowledgeable than any specificity of time and/or space.
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June 15, 2017 at 12:47 pm
Kimberly, there isn’t an infinite past, the evidence that consistently has been found since Lord Kelvin and thermodynamics has shown it isn’t real. U’re merely speaking fiction here.
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June 16, 2017 at 5:45 am
without an infinite past there can be no infinite future. Logically, if one were to live forever, then one has always lived. There can be no beginning. For example, you perceived no passage of time prior to you conception although billions of years passed from the beginning of what we can perceive around us. And, you will not perceive the passage of time once you’re dead. That in no way “proves” anything relating to reality.
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June 16, 2017 at 6:55 am
That reasoning is wrong because it is fallacious. The existence of first coordinate of a temporal sequence is independent of the existence the last coordinate of a temporal sequence. It is possible to show that a sequence can have a beginning, and not an end, and viceversa. For example, the set of all positive numbers exist, and there is a beginning to this sequence: 0, but there is no end to it. Sure, I cannot perceive time before my birth, and I cannot perceive time after my death, but those two events are causally unrelated. What if I never die? Then I’ll never’ve perceived the time before my birth while able to perceive all time afterwards. Death is merely a physical accident of biology, not a mathematical-logical necessity.
Also, even if ur argument were correct, it’d be irrelevant: there is much scientific evidence that shows that the universe won’t’ve an infinite future either.
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June 16, 2017 at 9:12 am
A paradox is not fallacious. If one lives forever (OR if one approaches the infinite number in the set of all positive numbers) then one has ALWAYS lived forever (OR the set of all positive numbers approaches infinity on both ends) and thus there is no beginning when there is no ending. Regardless, your perspective is based solely on the measurement of time rather than time itself. Time exists whether measurable or not. And, time measurement is based on rates of decay. The logical fallacy is then that a zero rate of decay negates time existence when precisely the opposite is intuitively obvious based on the laws of Boolean logic.
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June 16, 2017 at 9:19 am
Kimberly, U’re failing to comprehend the very nature of Infinity. Infinity has not one fixed size, but several. It is possible for infinite objects to have a beginning and not and end, thus being infinite. This is the difference between a line (no beginning, no end), and a ray in mathematics (beginning, end). Time isn’t a line, it is a ray, because we can PROVE time has a beginning, which occurs at the Big Bang. We can show it experimentally.
Time measurements aren’t based in rates of decay, U’re very wrong. U’re clearly not educated formally in science. No, time measurements are based in electromagnetic waves and general relativity, because the rates of decay themselves are dependent upon the above, but the above are constant and independent, they exist as part of the fundamental physical fabric of spacetime itself. So once again, U’re wrong. Also, a paradox BY DEFINITION IS fallacy, because paradoxes are what render contradictions fallacious in the first place. Ur understanding of the laws of logic isn’t great at all.
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June 16, 2017 at 11:49 am
Again, you’ve mistaken time to it’s measurement (ie/time measurement began (ie/decay) with the beginning of the universe) and NOT inferred time itself. The concept of infinity is that it has no size (ie/it is limitless). And again, you fail to see the paradox of the Boolean idea that IF there exists an infinite to the positive there must of necessity be an infinite to the past). Consequently, if you see time as a ray then, it is an infinite ray and thus has no beginning, which makes the ultimate ray a line. Actually, I’m a chemist and mathematician.
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June 16, 2017 at 12:10 pm
I must have lived forever otherwise I could not be alive now…I just don’t remember my previous forever because either I didn’t have a brain or it was rebooted when my current life took over and erased the memories in order to take a new bundle of experiences in. Maybe our dreams are previous life fragments rushing by as the sleep cycle reboots our daily experiences while continually purging the old.
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June 16, 2017 at 12:14 pm
Angel:
Who in this world understands infinity? Most of us can’t find our way around the city in which we live! .
Who can understand spontaneous generation? Life?
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June 16, 2017 at 1:55 pm
I’m also a mathematician, a philosopher, and an astrophysicist, also formerly student of theology.
No, I’m not confusing time with its measurement. Time measurement DID NOT begin with the Big Bang, and once again you are wrong about how time is measured. Once again: TIME is a necessary property of the physical world which itself began with the Big Bang.
There is no Boolean principle that states that if there is an Infinity towards the positive, there must necessarily be an Infinity towards the negative. If that were true, rays wouldn’t exist. And rays aren’t identical to lines, so you’re wrong.
As for infinity and sized, you’re also wrong. Cantor PROVED mathematically that infinities with multiple sizes exist. If you were an authentic mathematician, you would understand this. I agree with Leo that you really have no idea of what you’re talking about. I suggest you study general relativity, transfinite numbers and cardinals, mathematical philosophy and Boolean logic before you continue commenting. Not only is there a flaw in your logic, but your description of how time works isn’t even scientifically accurate.
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June 17, 2017 at 7:56 am
You’ve contradicted yourself when you state time began with the origination of the universe but time measurement did not begin at that event. One cannot measure what doesn’t exist simply because measurement must be based on observable phenomena. Consequently, you’ve again confused time measurement with time itself and related it only to the universe as we know it. However, that completely ignores the concept of infinity past and infinity future which are intuitively acknowledgeable but obviously incomprehensible from our limited perspective. So, when one perceives that decay exists within our reality, it is the measurement of that decay one naturally perceives as time itself and what you continue to do (not that I fault you). For example, your “ray” is finite only as long as the length of it is measurable but as a ray approaches infinity, it no longer becomes measurable and consequently, the paradox of an origin to the ray existing becomes less and less probable (ie/infinity forward must of necessity mean infinity backward). Even Cantor had to admit there were paradoxes within transfinite numbers. And, the only way to account for such paradoxes is to postulate the concept of extra-universal influences. Which leads us directly to infinity and the concept of a reality without decay in which the time between events is meaningless and all events are inter-related (ie/including the intuitive acknowledgement that the existence of an infinite reality was related to the origination of a finite universe event). Such an intuitive acknowledge appears to be hard-wired into the human genome at an almost instinctive level. I suggest you consider Boolean functions relative to infinity.
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June 17, 2017 at 9:01 am
There is no contradiction in what I claimed. Time exists independent of observation. The observation of time only began when humans conceived of time as a concept, but time itself preceded the existence of observation itself. What originated at the Big Bang wasn’t the measurement of time, but time itself. There is no negative time, it doesn’t exist, that’s the end of it. U’re trying to say that the Boolean laws say time should exist negatively too, but what logic declares is irrelevant as long as we can empirically disprove it. See, deductive logic doesn’t determine how the physical world works, it only allows U to formulate valid arguments, but the premises of the argument themselves should be empirically adequate in order for the necessary logical implications to be empirically correct. Decay is a measurement of time, and an outdated measurement based on the cosnologically and quantically inaccurate classical mechanics. However, time is not a function of decay, it is a function of the laws of electromagnetism which are true in all frames of reference in the universe because they are intrinsic to energy and the fabric of spacetime itself.
In Cantorian mathematics, there is no such an object as an extra-universal influence, that is just nonsense that U’re saying. The paradoxes are resolved by acknowledging that 1: Infinity isn’t by necessity symmetric and 2: Infinity can exist in multiple different sizes simultaneously. So the Boolean law U’re citing simply doesn’t apply in this situation.
Saying time and infinite are beyond our comprehension is a self-contradiction and thus a fallacy: if it were truly incomprehensible, it’d be impossible to declare it is incomprehensible in the first place.
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June 23, 2017 at 3:53 am
[…] of the universe that avoid this obvious conclusion of a God-like being. Some, like physicist Stephen Hawking and philosopher Daniel Dennett, assert that the universe created itself! Dennett calls it “the […]
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June 28, 2017 at 1:10 pm
Obviously, one can only acknowledge that infinity exists without any comprehension at all. This acknowledgement is without any proof at all. None of us can comprehend the endlessness of infinity. If that were so, it would not be infinity. And, infinity is NOT a perpetual continuation. It encompasses what is, what always was and what always will be. Yet, not even that explanation is an approximation simply because of our perceptual limitations. Cantorian math speculates different “sizes” of infinity presuming a relationship between two infinities. However, this does not presume comprehension for infinity itself. It only describes the relationship between two datasets at a finite level and extrapolates to what “appears” to be infinity. Yet, such extrapolation is itself impossible simply because any extrapolation is by necessity limited to the limits of comprehension. The better approximation is that what always is and always will be has always been. The universe is a bubble in infinity (not time) and size. Consequently, if it began (with the big bangle) or as the creation of God (which I acknowledge), it will end. And, I also acknowledge that the event with which it will end will be what the Bible calls the “great and terrible day of the Lord” when this existence will simply coalesce into one giant sea of slag. And, whatever passes through that day will attain not only an existence in infinity. Both future AND past as well as “present”.
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June 30, 2017 at 8:20 am
Kimberly, your entire argument is based on the illogical, unproven proposition that one cannot have comprehension of Infinity at all, which is obvious not true. By definition, being able to formulate the different sizes of infinity in terms of Cantorian sets IMPLIES comprehension of infinity, which suggests you lack any comprehension of what the definition of comprehension is to begin with. Also, it is astoundingly irrational and illogical to deny the evidence that the universe will have no end in pose of an assumption that isn’t even based on logic declaring it must. Logic isn’t a determinant of reality. Physics is. Get over yourself now.
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June 30, 2017 at 9:34 am
Quantum mechanics deals in probabilities. Classical physics deals in finite measurements. Calculus deals in approximations of infinity based on limit functions. All are based upon the presumption of a reality that already exists in finite form/function. And, even logic is pretentious in that it is nothing more than an extrapolation of what already is to what is presumed to be. Consequently, there is no scientifically derived determinant of non-finite reality. Yet, each of us maintains the intuitive acknowledgement that infinity exists in some form with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Why? Because it is hard-wired into the human genome to do so. But, where did that “instinct” come from? Obviously, the conclusion must be that such an intuitive acknowledgement must necessarily originate from the origination of humanity itself. An origination that IF it includes the intuitive acknowledgement of infinity THEN some form of infinity must exist. That is our only proof from the perspective of this reality that infinity exists but it is enough. Because, such proof that infinity exists, means God exists and where God exists, there is more than nothingness in infinity, which science tries to tell us. The crux of the matter is that it makes more sense intuitively to acknowledge existence over non-existence when there is no determinant proof of either.
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June 30, 2017 at 10:43 am
That argument has a few misconceptions regarding how logic and science both operate.
1. Several scientific fields do deal with infinities in a physically consistent and mathematically rigorous understanding. Generally relativity, for example, creates the conscious that at the exact singularity of a black hole, there is exactly an infinite amount of spacetime curvature, and the mathematics workout without contradiction AND an intuitive understanding of it.
2. Laboratories have also managed to play with negative absolute temperatures, and hence infinitely cold or infinitely hot objects, and we also have a mathematical understanding of this, although it isn’t necessarily intuitive because intuition is in fact very subjective.
3. I think you misunderstand what limits in calculus are. Limits aren’t approximations. The area of a circle isn’t approximately πr^2, no, it is EXACTLY πr^2.
4. Logic isn’t an extrapolation of our physical reality. Logic is a language describing the relationship between different propositions based on the assumed axioms, such axioms MAY or MAY NOT be intuitive, depending on the choice. Mathematics, all of it, is a consequence of formal logic, and physics is merely the choice of applicable mathematical systems that allow us to describe physical reality. However, a choice of a mathematical model isn’t acceptable if it fails to satisfy the initial conditions that are stipulated by the physical reality. Your logical – or very illogical model, since there are no proofs this presumption – model that claims that because our universe had a beginning, which isn’t actually all that well established either, it must also have an end, isn’t supported and fails to correspond to physical reality much in the same way that the Newtonian model of F=ma fails to correspond to physical evidence and is substituted by the Einstenian F=mv’γ(v)^3, which gives you the exact quantity for zero spacetime curvature spaces, which pretty much do exist in intergalactic vacuums.
4. The debate of whether we exist or not is completely unrelated to any debate about the comprehension of Infinity.
5. Our notions of Infinity are created by ourselves, not by God. Humans CREATED logic and humans CREATED mathematics. We created the concept of infinity because it is useful both on a mathematical abstract level and on a physical level. However, this usefulness and creativeness is a trait we evolved from our proto-primate ancestors. Our concepts and thoughts are all constructs we created by way of biological evolution due to their practicality and due to their usefulness in our survival as a species. This is also why we can indeed comprehend Infinity: we created it. And every disagreement that comes from asserting its non-existence comes down from axioms or failures to see the fallacies in a particular argument.
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July 2, 2017 at 6:01 pm
First, any mathematical function relative to infinity must of necessity remain an approximation. For example the function f(x) = m/a where m approaches infinity can only approximate infinity. Just as f(x) = m/a where a approaches infinity can only approximate zero. And, zero spacetime curvature just means zero gravity which has nothing at all to do with the concept of infinity. Nothingness means nothingness. Not infinity. Humanity has created nothing (not nothingness). Rather, humanity has uses its abilities to reason to define what already exists and to extrapolate from that. This isn’t the result of primate instincts. Such a statement is pure fallacy. Humanity was instilled with such abilities and the fossil record shows that at some point in human history, the gene-pool became so degraded and damaged that what science perceives as ancestral primates were in fact a dead-end gene-pool of gene-damaged humanity that were driven from men and eventually died out. Humanity survived as we are today because the gene-pool was purged of these “Neanderthal” men. They were not pre-cursors of modern man. They were the consequence of eugenics by people who were somehow able to live for thousands of years and who bred with hundreds of their own progeny in an attempt to breed supermen. These prehistoric people are only known today by the mythologies of multiple ancient peoples. The “gods” of the Romans, Greeks and other ancient peoples were in fact based on such prehistoric men and women.
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July 2, 2017 at 9:46 pm
The dishonesty in ur reply is astonishing to say the least.
1. Yes, U are correct: Neanderthals weren’t pre-cursor of humans, they coexisted with humans. That proves nothing.
2. No, reason IS a primitive human instinct. It necessarily is a creation of humanity, because it would not exist exclusively in humans otherwise. Besides, there literally is biological and psychological evidence that is a construct.
3. No, it isn’t a fallacy, U obviously lack understanding of what a fallacy is. A fallacy is a form of deductive reasoning which relies upon a set of contradiction, incoherencies or unsound arguments. It’s exclusively an ontological-logical phenomena. U can’t declare claims that are inherently empirical & inductive to be fallacies. Please take a course on logic before U throw around terms U don’t understand.
4. I never said zero gravity implies infinity. U obviously don’t understand what I’m saying, or U are not reading it. I said there is INFINITE DENSITY. Look, it’s freaking capitalized: density. And when I mean black holes have a singularity with infinite DENSITY, I literally mean infinite. Jesus Christ, look it up in Google, it’s literally something any middle schooler can learn. It isn’t advanced astronomy.
5. Once again, U obviously fail to understand what limits are if U think they’re mere approximations. U claim to be a mathematician, but I know U’re bullshitting. Do U want me to provide to U the emails of ACTUAL mathematicians who understand the concept of limits so they can explain it to U? I’d be glad to. But long story short, here is why limits AREN’T approximations: they already incorporate surreal numbers in their definition, they have infinitesimals. This is why the area of a circle is EXACTLY what it is: one can integrate the equation x^2+y^2=r^2 with respect to x to obtain the area, and integration gives the exact value for the area under a curve, but that exact value is the product of a limit to Infinity of a sum. There are thousands of similar examples. U need to retake calculus.
Seriously, this isn’t an intellectually honest conversation, because U’re pretending to understand concepts U clearly do not. But then U actually refuse to verify the information U spew with real scientists and mathematicians because U want to believe U actually know everything U’re saying, so of course ur argument won’t change. If U want to have an intellectual conversation, U need to understand the concepts. U use the terms logic, instinct, and especially fallacy without understanding what they are. And ur understanding of Cantorian sets is not all that great, I spend a huge amount of time reading essays written by mathematicians and discussing the topic with mathematicians, and while I don’t necessarily understanding everything nor do I agree with every single statement postulated, I have a solid base, and I can tell that U think Cantorian sets are something entirely different. U’re also throwing unjustified assumptions such as Infinity behaves symmetrically or Infinity has one exclusive nature, and blah blah. I wonder what ur understanding of this all goes beyond Boolean logic since it’s the only thing U actually seem to grasp well
P.S.: declaring something a fallacy without any justification is a fallacy. It’s called dismissible arbitrariness. Look it up too.
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July 3, 2017 at 7:14 am
The fallacy is to presume the precursor to humanity was a monkey. And, that the intricacies of reason and logic originates from monkey instincts, and began with men. It is intuitively acknowledgeable that reason and logic have ever been and will always be regardless of mankind’s existence. Please elaborate on the faith it takes to propose such antics without evidence of proof. Such a proposal establishes my point that science has the ability to acknowledge existence over non-existence without scientific proof when it wishes to do so. But, that’s beside the point. Infinite density remains an approximation simply because density is a fractional equation (Density = mass/volume). Again, such an equation can never achieve infinity simply because volume can never be zero, which is a numerical value just as any other. All math prohibits division by zero. Consequently, the alternative is that volume can only approach zero and thus infinite density remains an approximation in every scenario. With respect to circular trigonometry, a circle is finite regardless of how many subdivisions one introduces. If one were to approach an infinity of subdivisions, it would have no effect upon the circle itself. Consequently, that scenario is not related to the subject of infinity. It is an exercise in futility. And finally, having to re-take calculus, differential equations, set theory, quantum mechanics and whatever other math I happened to find myself in in college would be the worst sort of hell. Laughing.
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July 3, 2017 at 8:49 am
1. Once again, declaring an statement a fallacy without explaining why is a fallacy itself.
2. U also committed the straw man fallacy. I never said humans came from monkeys. However, all the evidence there is demomstrates that both humans & monkeys evolved from a proto-primate species.
3. Density is only a ratio in classical mechanics, not in general relativity. Once again, U show how ignorant U are on these topics. Get a scientific education & we’ll talk.
4. Circular trigonometry isn’t an approximation. Ask any mathematician. A circle IS an infinite polygon by definition, because the circle is a line of which all the points are equidistant from the center of curvature, which implies a radius equivalent to its apothem, which only occurs with exactly an infinite number of sides. No, it doesn’t occur as an approximation, a shape whose radius is only approximately equal to the apothem doesn’t have an area of pi*r^2. More ignorance. U make me laugh. I wonder ur age.
5. There is evidence that logic is created by primates. The fact it doesn’t exist in other animals is some evidence. But here is why logic is created by humans: it correlates exactly with human instinct AND logic depends upon definitions we assign to words and objects. The fact that such human-made definitions are necessary is the ultimate proof.
6. Re-taking those courses would be hell? U mean actuallly bursting ur little fragile bubble & using logic like a normal human being is hell? U hate to abandon ur indoctrinated, baseless dogma? Oh, poor little baby.
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July 3, 2017 at 8:53 am
The fallacy is to presume the precursor to humans was not life, be it Evolution from Mouse, Monkey or the Monarch Butterfly. YET everything without an apparent precursor; e.g., “spontaneous generation” is not understood and can neither be explained by by common sense or by academia addicts. How can finite knowledge be expected to speak knowledgeably about infinity?
Angel Méndez Rivera and Kimberley sound like one patch of cloth speaking to the other patch of cloth from the same piece of fabric of absolute certainty as though matter and anti matter are arguing with itself one being the devil’s advocate for the same fabric.
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July 3, 2017 at 9:02 am
“……….There is evidence that logic is created by primates. The fact it doesn’t exist in other animals is some evidence………..”
Are crows logical primates? I don’t think so yet a crow will see a tasty morsel floating on the surface of water in a container to tall to beak at so will find pebble to drop into the container thus displacing the water raising the level of the water and the floating morsel until it comes within the beak capture of the crow to eat. HUH?
The New Caledonian crow (Corvus moneduloides) is an all-black, medium-sized member of the family Corvidae, native to New Caledonia. The bird is often referred to as the ‘qua-qua’ due to its distinctive call. It eats a wide range of food including many types of invertebrates, eggs, nestlings, small mammals, snails, nuts and seeds. The New Caledonian crow sometimes captures grubs in nooks or crevices by poking a twig at the grub to agitate it into biting the twig, which the crow then withdraws with the grub still attached. This method of feeding indicates the New Caledonian crow is capable of tool use. They are able to make hooks. This species is also capable of solving a number of sophisticated cognitive tests which suggest that it is particularly intelligent. As a result of these findings, the New Caledonian crow has become a model species for scientists trying to understand the impact of tool use and manufacture on the evolution of intelligence. ( logic / reason ? )
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July 3, 2017 at 11:11 am
1. You present an argument from ignorance, which is a fallacy. Not because your mind, which is finite, cannot understand infinity, does it mean no one with finite knowledge can understand infinity. The fact that infinity represents an endless amount or quality may not require infinite knowledge at all, that is a non-sequitur fallacy. Mathematicians understand infinity better than they do wheel algebra or differential geometry. They understand infinity better than the abc conjecture. To say that infinity cannot be understood is absolutely ridiculous! Besides, that statement could not be true simply because in order to logically assert it, you must have a large enough comprehension about infinity to realize that it is impossible to comprehend anything about infinity because our minds are finite. I repeat, these are many a contradiction.
2. The fact that crows and other animals can use tools is not necessarily evidence that they use logic. In fact, logic and tool usage are not even synonymous or related! You conflate several concepts together.
3. I never asserted we came from matter or non-life. Stop putting words in y mouth, that is intellectually dishonest.
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July 3, 2017 at 11:13 am
Also, Kimberly, math does not prohibit division by zero. You obviously have never heard of wheel algebra, only further proving your ignorance concerning mathematics. You still don’t understand limits either.
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July 3, 2017 at 11:47 am
I do present an argument from ignorance; I know that and that is not a fallacy. Fallacy is more often than not a subjective perception that people like to throw out to sound educated.
The logic of the crow is to place pebbles into the container displacing the water until the water level reaches a height sufficient for the crow to catch the floating morsel but that is not a tool, that is logic. The tool aspect of the example is holding a twig in its beak and probing the small area so the grub bites and holds onto the probe. Chimps use this same technic to probe and pick up ants on the tool to tongue them into its mouth as they also use tree branches to beat their neighbors or enemies.
You are more argumentative than common sensical; if tools were not associated with logic, reason and memory could not prevail for the next meal catch; it would then be mere coincidence all over again and then again and then again. The reptile brain cannot learn the difference between a twig blowing in the wind along the forest floor and a live critter that might fight or fight and eat it si it readies for fight for flight or fight until the twig blows away.
Of course tool is not synonymous with logic, I never said it was, and I don’t think you meant to put the words in my mouth anymore than I tried to put words in your mouth, nest ce pas?
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July 3, 2017 at 12:27 pm
Okay. So you don’t know what a fallacy is to begin with. Yes, people who use the word fallacy sound more educated because they objectively ARE more educated: any person who has taken a philosophy or logic class in high school knows what it is, and if you don’t, then you’re simply not in a position to be discussing this topic anymore than I’m in absolutely not in any position to tell my doctor he’s wrong about the diagnosis he makes on me. That’s the end of it, you’re not being intellectually honest if you declare otherwise.
Yes, I’m more argumentative than common sensical because the world DOES NOT operate on common sense. Most of science is contradictory to common sense, most of mathematics are contrary to common sense (except, you know, arithmetic and elementary geometry). Hell, most religions are contrary to common sense. The world doesn’t operate with common sense. Common sense: all it is is a set of programmed instincts and mindsets that allow us to achieve very basic survival skills that will allow us to be alive for at most another month. That’s the extent to which common sense is practical. Beyond that, most of the world is very counter-intuitive. And if it weren’t, education and schools wouldn’t be necessary. Religions wouldn’t have ever existed. Because religion was made exactly for the purpose of explaining everything that wasn’t intuitive… which turned out to be most things! So of course I’m argumentative, it’s called critical thinking, and as far as I’m concerned, this is the year 2017, not the year 6503 before the Common Era. Most of technology isn’t based on common sense either. Sure, the most basic tools that exist such as hammers, scissors, spears, those have common sense incorporated into their creation. The usage of basic tools for survival isn’t logic, it’s common sense, it’s purely primitive and instinctual. But I challenge you to create a lamp using common sense, to create injections using common sense, to create a car using common sense, to create a pulley using nothing but common sense. I wish you good luck. In fact, i wish for positive divine intervention in that case, because such tasks are literally impossible if using common sense only.
And I can play that game too. You want me to be “common-sensical”? Okay then: it’s common sense to not ask about the origins of the universe, and it’s fundamental common sense to not believe in a God that hasn’t been seen ever in human history. It’s fundamental common sense to not believe in a book that was written like thousands of years ago. Oh wait, you think that isn’t common sense? Then what prevents me from believing in the Lord of the Rings saga? Huh? See, I tell you that religion is not common sensical. No argument you make can be common-sensical if you’re trying to discuss the origins of the universe, the origins of logic, the origins of humanity, and the existence of God and the universe, All of this? This is what we call philosophy. So yes, logic is very distinct from common sense, and it is apparent to me you don’t know what it is all that well, since you don’t think fallacies are a legitimate concept to begin with.
Since you don’t believe in fallacies, let me destroy your argument in the simplest way possible. You don’t think infinity can be understood by finite consciousness (even though there literally are many out there who do, so you literally have to be delusional or live under a rock to think that), and you argue that on the basis that you don’t understand it. Okay then: God couldn’t’ve created the universe simply because I’m ignorant about it and I don’t understand it and it doesn’t make “common sense” to me. Therefore, God didnt create the universe and God isn’t real.
Checkmate#
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July 4, 2017 at 7:42 am
Quantum density deals with probability relative to gravity and other observable factors. It does not correlate with mass density; it merely adds detail. Regardless, it remains that infinite density (like any other infinity concept) remains an approximation simply because zero volume is an impossibility, as well as infinite mass. Just as with any other infinity principle based on observable phenomena. One may not assign an infinite presumption to a finite observation, even with extrapolation. Simply because, if a realistic phenomenon exists, such as black holes then only finite conditions have been observed. Not infinite conditions. And, this is to be expected in the known Universe relative to matter and energy. The paradox remains however that when extrapolation indicates true infinity rather than an approximation then such infinity must of necessity be multi-directional. In other words, what always is and always will be, always was. So, this is a universe, we can all see exhibiting finite principles that might function based on approximations of infinity but it is a universe that is in reality finite from one direction or the other. Consequently, since the universe had a beginning, it stands to reason that it will also have an end. Interestingly enough, science is just now coming close to exploring the beginning of matter by postulating the force associated with the Higg’s boson (aptly named the “god particle”). A force which appears to tie all matter together. This should be significant to those who espouse creationism (including myself) because such a force applied to the most fundamental particle of matter can be viewed as the will of an Originator of extra-creational and truly infinite existence. Consequently, the creation of matter makes scientific sense from such studies of particle physics because if matter were brought into existence by an effort of will then it was purposeful rather than random. The conclusion then correlates perfectly with the infinity concept. The will (force) holding matter in existence can just as easily be removed, meaning that all matter will simply dissipate like smoke from a candle while the existence of extra-creational (infinite) existence remains as it was before. So, it becomes ever more difficult to not acknowledge the existence of God and Mankind’s destiny as science progresses. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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July 4, 2017 at 9:09 am
So Kimberley:
How do you square 2 Peter 3:10 with 2 Peter 3:11-13
“11-13 Since everything here today might well be gone tomorrow, do you see how essential it is to live a holy life? Daily expect the Day of God, eager for its arrival. The galaxies will burn up and the elements melt down that day—but we’ll hardly notice. We’ll be looking the other way, ready for the promised new heavens and the promised new earth, all landscaped with righteousness.”
If we’ll be looking the other way, untouched, waiting for the New Heaven and the New Earth, does that not imply that a new creation will begin immediately and the righteous sheltered from the conflagration in the same twinkling of the eye that comes unannounced like a thief?
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July 4, 2017 at 9:32 am
You’re an adequate example of how the Dunning-Krueger effect manifests itself in dogmatists such as yourself. This probably explains why those college courses were hell to you. I’ll not waste more time in trying to have a conversation with a human wall.
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July 4, 2017 at 2:05 pm
College wasn’t hell…to repeat what I’ve already been through would be though. The difference is obvious. Much of the new testament was written by Paul to specific people who at that time were destined for death by the Romans. He wrote to prepare and encourage those people in the face of their death. Not for religion to come along and take such specificity for its own agenda. “New” in such a scenario as what that passage mentions would not mean a morphological change but an encounter with what had previously been unprecedented. Clearly, Paul was describing what even science postulates…an encounter with infinity when the finite ends. The encouragement was that Paul revealed some might pass from the finite to take on the infinite. Not by evolution to godhood as science presupposes but by survival in the face of the only alternative available…oblivion (Darwin wasn’t all wrong). I simply choose to acknowledge the latter possibility rather than the former. Otherwise, the concept of infinity is itself a fallacy.
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July 16, 2017 at 2:10 am
Faith is akin to feeling of shame. Humans have been taught shame from childhood so if a time comes when clothes are shorn by present men still a shame reflex shall occur (despite this being dismissed off as unscientific /or being without faith – considering which part of the divide you are in) the opposite of this existed during the time of cave men when they did not contrive shame (and also god).Stephen Hawking got retribution of living with a physical condition which did not invite proportional merit – thus inviting doubt about the beneficence and magnificence of the divine So do many people. If it is assumed that the grand plan was to create a process of progressive unbundling of knowledge about divinity and creation – that only the context and comprehension capable by men the subject at the given time would be dispensed in order to reveal about divinity and creator, and once the idea took roots it would be taken forward even with progress in knowledge (and science), But looking back with the benefit of the knowledge science has gifted, the narrative of the ancient religious texts do not extrapolate that such narrative and philosophies would be enacted by a creator of such complex quantities such as time gravity matter and antimatter and space transience .All religions preach peace which is essential for survival of the species thus working through Darwinian principles and religion developed post the period of cave man when men developed intelligence to systematically exterminate his race through poison, weapons and tact, so perhaps now is the age to understand what religion does, quite apart from what religion was, as in the past. Charles Darwin and later people of his ilk up to the present are relevant preachers , now that global warming and polar ice caps melting and erratic lethal weather patterns and growth of antibiotics resistant superbugs for men animal’s and crops and replacement of human skills (but not depopulation of the workforce by some ethical miracle) in the work force becomes a reality
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July 17, 2017 at 11:16 am
Far too many of us make the simple mistake of equating religion with the biblical record. What religion teaches (yes, even the most fundamental orthodox Christianity) is literally in direct conflict with the very book it claims to live by. There is no shame in faith, which is nothing more than acknowledgement that our resources are limited when speculating about extra-universal conceptions and that one must then acknowledge existence rather than non-existence since such an acknowledgment is hardwired into the human genome. It is that acknowledgment that one cannot ignore, even in the absence of evidence that can be quantitatively measured. Consequently, religion’s “faith” is nothing less than a lie in that it takes the specificity of the biblical record and applies it generically for it’s own agenda. Usually, that agenda is to seek power over others and/or to obtain another’s physical goods. Yet, when one looks into the Bible, one sees that it is not written as a “way to live” but as a record against mankind. And, from the perspective of what obviously is someone who exists outside of the normal flow of what mankind perceives as time and reality. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One (not three) that inhabiteth eternity, whose name (Son) is Holy……………..
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July 17, 2017 at 11:28 am
Kimberly:
Indeed there are two different “Faiths” the first is the acknowledgment of existence on faith without resources to speculate further than we can without going into berserk insanity. There is no shame in that Faith
The second is the Faith of religion which is actually religious dogma that claims to know the why, where, when, how and what of that existence and must necessarily be a big lie because of the limited resources you cite. There is shame in that faith and leads to berserk insanity.
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July 17, 2017 at 11:42 am
No, Kimberly. Faith is problematic simply as it is, regardless of any distinctions. Faith is problematic because by faith, all things can be simultaneously true. Which is evidently a problem.
Regarding your old comment about infinity density being a ratio and thus being only approximately infinite as opposed to exactly infinite, you commit a mistake. The problem is there is no such a thing as approximate Infinity.
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July 17, 2017 at 11:50 am
DEFINITION OF A CONUNDRUM:
ÁNGEL
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July 17, 2017 at 11:57 am
Definition of a conundrum: having faith AND thinking Infinity can be “approximated”
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July 17, 2017 at 12:04 pm
Man coins words to define what he wants to communicate…that’s what Faith is and that’s what Kimberly meant as I understand the comment.
Having faith is like having love, having compassion, having passion, having emotional, soulish sentiment. We have sorrow in grief.
The dictionary is full of words coined and definitions displayed.
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July 17, 2017 at 10:12 pm
The conflict of religion (which now appears like a work of art which happened a couple of thousands of years ago on the deserts of the Middle East) and science is that science has established with irrefutable evidence that men had indeed developed from apes – and the efficiency of science gives it not just the merit for faith in science (because by extrapolation of finite experience accumulated from just 300 years of scientific observation and analysis on physical phenomena on just our planet Great claims about what creation ought to be over infinity of trillions of years in time and trillions of light years across space is being made and gleefully accepted) but science has become the craft of our very existence, this making faith in science a necessity. This conflict has got wider and shall get wider because religion now does not have the manageable means to evolve and adept in the light of present knowledge from science, because by some quark it had been dispensed as indisputable (and not open ended) The yearnings of men to the contrary – for accepting only what is convincing to the self and not being marshalled into accepting is manifesting in the form of the proliferating fellowship and sects. The great problem was that religion precluded that mankind would later develop science as his craft for existence and this would give him the tools to unravel the truth even if it involves unmaking what religion propounded about the creation of the universe or of the human race (and animal kingdom)
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July 17, 2017 at 10:54 pm
Mr. N J Chetia
“………science has established with irrefutable evidence that men had indeed developed from apes………” Where in the world do you come to that conclusion? What a cockamamy idea that is; so ridiculous.
Science does not offer irrefutable evidence of any such thing. All science is telling us is that there were and are a series of similar species evolving akin to each other; in other words alongside each other. That doesn’t mean that the cheetah came from the jaguar or the leopard evolved from the lion. This is a feline species as there are canine species….the donkey and the horse, and cattle.
By the same token chimpanzees evolve alongside the gorilla, the mandril, the macaque, black howler, proboscis, baboon, squirrel monkey, rhesus..more than 260 monkey species and mankind was simply one of the species evolving alongside other species.
There could never be one single ancestor life in spontaneous generation develops according to the environment that envelops it. A single species fish that all fish sprang from is ludicrous and it is just as ludicrous to say that man came from ape because he is ape-like or that apes came from man because apes are man-like
Man is ape-like and apes are man-like as a wild dog is wolf-like a hyena is dog-like and most birds are chicken-like. crow-like and eagle-like.
All life is separate but resemble one with the other, a rose would be a flower by any other name and a dandelion is flower-like or apple blossom-like, different species of hornets are hornet-like….and look at the piss ant, the piss ant is army ant-like and vice versa.
The Fake news about irrefutable evidence is so much hysterical mockery to denigrate evolutionary processes.
Use your common sense, a common sense that man has like no other but there are varying degrees of common sense in different species and much of that is what we conveniently cal instinct, the spider weaves, the scorpion stings, the snake slithers..most every snake slithers but that doesn’t mean the rattler in anything more than python-like and the grass snake is merely garter snake-like.
The oyster is not a clam but it is clam-like and a mussel is oyster-like. Every species has it’s species-like appearance but a shrimp is not a lobster.
Get over your irrefutable evidence about man evolving from ape and ape from man..there’s no such thing. Did the carrot come from the turnip or the beet or the potato..what silly nigglers some humans are even parrot-like.
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July 18, 2017 at 12:05 am
Science has established that homosapiens erectus had evolved from from a lineage whose ancestors were the apes, the process took millions of years and not in a day
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July 18, 2017 at 7:04 am
By such ridiculous statements, my case about approximations of infinity is proven in that a so-called “scientist” considers “millions” of years a panacea for godlessness (God, being the absolute singularity in infinity). The probability of any kind of ape morphing into modern mankind is so small that “millions” of years is mathematically indecipherable from the probability of a single ape morphing into a man in a single day. And in ignoring this obvious fact (obvious in that all permutations of such morphology approach infinity), the so-called “scientist” equates a relativistic small (finite) amount of time to an approximation of infinity. Nothing could be further from any attempt at actual science.
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July 18, 2017 at 8:27 am
SCIENCE HAS ESTABLISHED THAT homosapiens evolved from and ancestry of homosapiens, whose DNA is close to the apes and monkeys, not apes, not monkeys…the apes and monkeys are still here and the homosapiens are still here, nest ce pas?
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July 18, 2017 at 11:32 am
1. Infinity cannot be approximated. This a proven principle in mathematics. This is because for any finite number N, there always is another finite number M such that M >> N, or equivalently, N/M ~ 0. Yet if M is always finite, then M << Infinity, so there is no approximation.
2. A number cannot approach Infinity, only functions can. A number is not approaching anything, a number is a fixed value.
3. No, the probability of evolution from proto-apes to humans occurring are not small, because probability only applies to random processes, whereas evolution is not a random process. Given the particular geological, atmospheric, and oceanic changes of circumstances at a given time for a particular set of species, evolution either will occur based on these conditions, or it won't. The process is guided by the laws of nature, not by probability.
4. No scientist equates the eonic scale with an infinite time scale, that is a ridiculous absurdity you invented.
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July 18, 2017 at 9:56 pm
Worshipping popularly held theories of science (not terrestrial science which gives the scope to be conclusively experimented in lab condition) but extra extra terrestrial science and extra dimensional science as absolute brings it’s risks. An important element gravity could not be defined terristrialy as regarding what mechanism causes it, so the benefit of this knowledge misses when applied to extra terrestrial phenomena. Worshipping singularity at an alter is even more risky – what with black hole information paradox. Even Stephen Hawking changed his views on black holes, thus proving that the archetacture or creation is still evolving
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July 19, 2017 at 1:31 am
Typological correction of the last line “thus proving that the architecture OF creation is still evolving “
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July 19, 2017 at 8:51 am
Again, these posts provide clear evidence that infinity is not (and cannot be) understood and have only been acknowledged without any evidence of proof in reality. Any mathematical contruct that includes infinity is consequently an approximation of what “could be” rather than “what is”. Yet, such posts continue to acknowledge (clearly without any proof) the existence of infinity in reality. The opposite (that infinity cannot possibly exist because there is no proof in reality) is not even contemplated! Such logic fully contradicts atheism with atheists even realizing it. Functions can approximate infinity but it does not take a function for a set of finite numbers to be infinite. Set theory does not necessitate a function for all mathematical sets. For example, the set of all numeric values does not contain a function. The concept of evolution (even though it is false, based on entropy) fully depends upon random sequences and thus probability plays an enormous part of the theory due to propagation of error with each successive randomization. The fact that “millions” of years were mentioned proves this because it infers a random sequence of events with extremely small occurrence probabilities. So, don’t be obtuse in attempting to retract such statements.
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July 19, 2017 at 12:37 pm
No, this isn’t an architecture of creation because creation isn’t real. The universe couldn’t’ve been created because the laws of logic make it impossible.
Your comprehension of evolutionary theory is so bad it isn’t even worth discussing the topic with you.
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July 19, 2017 at 12:39 pm
Also, black holes have been directly observed.
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July 19, 2017 at 1:01 pm
“Again, these posts provide clear evidence that infinity is not (and cannot be) understood and have only been acknowledged without any evidence of proof in reality.”
This is obviously false. 1. If it is impossible to comprehend Infinity, then it is impossible to declare it is incomprehensible, because such a declaration would require justification that can only be met with sufficient comprehension of Infinity, hence a contradiction. 2. There is evidence of it existing in reality, both mathematical and empirical. You may reject it because you fail to understand the topic, but that does not imply it isn’t there.
“Any mathematical contruct that includes infinity is consequently an approximation of what “could be” rather than “what is”.”
Wrong again. Mathematical constructs are, by definition, exact, because mathematical thought is by definition deductive.
“Yet, such posts continue to acknowledge (clearly without any proof) the existence of infinity in reality.”
No, there is proof, you’re just too dumb to acknowledge this. I’ve already provided the evidence, you haven’t provided any rational objections.
“The opposite (that infinity cannot possibly exist because there is no proof in reality) is not even contemplated!”
1. Fallacy. Not because there is no evidence for some object does it mean the object cannot inherently exist. Non sequitur atgument, hence a fallacy.
2. THERE IS EVIDENCE, THAT IS WHY THE POSSIBILITY OF IT NOT EXISTING MUST BE REJECTED. Jesus Christ, how much does your brain malfunction on a daily basis?
“Such logic fully contradicts atheism with atheists even realizing it. Functions can approximate infinity but it does not take a function for a set of finite numbers to be infinite.”
Straw man fallacy. I never mentioned a relationship between function and sets.
“Set theory does not necessitate a function for all mathematical sets. For example, the set of all numeric values does not contain a function.”
Still a straw man.
“The concept of evolution (even though it is false, based on entropy)…”
No. Entropy does not contradict evolution. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that closer systems increase in entropy. The Earth isn’t a closed system, so the laws of thermodynamics make no predictions about how entropy should operate on Earth, so it can’t contradict evolution.
“…fully depends upon random sequences…”
No, it doesn’t. Natural selection, which yields evolution as an outcome, is a process that takes a set of species and a set of environmental conditions and the function returns the species that survive as an outcome. So it isn’t random.
“…and thus probability plays an enormous part of the theory due to propagation of error with each successive randomization.”
Mutations are driven by quantum thermodybamics. They occur randomly, but the formation of mutations is irrelevant to the function that relates the environment and its corresponding set of species to the evolutionary outcome.
“The fact that “millions” of years were mentioned proves this because it infers a random sequence of events with extremely small occurrence probabilities.”
No, it doesn’t. Your understanding of this topic is null. The mention of millions of years simply implies a gradual process rather than an instantaneous one, it implies dynamics rather than statues. It doesn’t imply anything about probabilities and one has no relation to the other.
“So, don’t be obtuse in attempting to retract such statement”
No, I’m not being obtuse, I’m just being factual and acknowledging reality as it is rather than trying to create my own set of universal laws and then trying to pretend they apply to the real world, dummy.
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July 19, 2017 at 5:57 pm
Quantum thermodynamics are solely based on probability and deal with the relationship between light and matter (NOT the theory of “evolution” but two other theories). Throwing around cool-sounding studies does little in responding to the “elephant in the room”, which is that there is no end to infinity and such an “end” cannot in reality be acknowledged to exist. Consider the unattainability principle included in the study mentioned, which is in direct opposition to the concept that achieving what is an exponentially small probability of occurrence that such an occurrence can be achieved at finite time. Consequently, the statement that “evolution” actually happened ( in spite of its probability approaching zero) to “make” modern man from apes within the finite time of “millions of years” denies any aspect of thermodynamics and/or quantum mechanics. Consequently, neither theory applies to “evolution”. Such false logic dictates that watching a movie backwards can’t be recognized! Or, that a cup of coffee will heat up rather than cool down! Even at the quantum level, any specific fluctuation that breaks any law of thermomdynamics can only occur with exponentially low probability. And, consequently, cannot occur at ANY finite time, especially in the relatively small span of “millions of years”. And, if it did happen, it would be overshadowed by the rest of reality. Face facts.
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July 19, 2017 at 6:45 pm
“Quantum thermodynamics are solely based on probability…”
No, they’re not.
“…and deal with the relationship between light and matter (NOT the theory of “evolution” but two other theories).”
…and you don’t even know the names of the theories. Yes, proves my point about the ignorance.
“Throwing around cool-sounding studies does little in responding to the “elephant in the room”, which is that there is no end to infinity and such an “end” cannot in reality be acknowledged to exist.”
You’ve provided no proof that Infinity cannot exist in reality. Also, they do much: they prove my point. You’re literally denying reality here. These studies ARE the evidence you wanted.
“And there Consider the unattainability principle included in the study mentioned, which is in direct opposition to the concept that achieving what is an exponentially small probability of occurrence that such an occurrence can be achieved at finite time.”
Unattainability principle isn’t a scientific conjecture.
“Consequently, the statement that “evolution” actually happened ( in spite of its probability approaching zero)”
A probability cannot approach zero if it is merely a number. Only functions can “approach” stuff, numbers don’t approach things, numbers don’t change value, numbers have fixed values. That’s why they’re called numbers and not variables or functions. Also, you can’t assign a probability to a process that isn’t random, and I already showed it isn’t random.
“…to “make” modern man from apes within the finite time of “millions of years” denies any aspect of thermodynamics and/or quantum mechanics.”
No, it doesn’t. Quite ironically, scientists have piles of evidence based on thermondynamics that show evolution must have occurred and that it still is occurring.
“Consequently, neither theory applies to “evolution”. Such false logic dictates that watching a movie backwards can’t be recognized!”
No, it doesn’t dictate this, and this is such a false equivalence mixed in with straw manning.
“Or, that a cup of coffee will heat up rather than cool down!”
A cup of coffee is only 100% guaranteed to cool downif and only if the cup of coffee is a closed system, which is never true. So there actually is a probability greater than zero based on thermodynamics that it will heat up, although it is tiny.
“Even at the quantum level, any specific fluctuation that breaks any law of thermomdynamics can only occur with exponentially low probability.”
Not true actually. See virtual particles.
“And, consequently, cannot occur at ANY finite time, especially in the relatively small span of “millions of years”.”
This claim has no evidence. If the probability is larger than zero, which it is, then it is by definition possible and given any sufficiently large yet finite time it WILL happen.
“And, if it did happen, it would be overshadowed by the rest of reality.”
Nonsense LOL.
” Face facts.”
I AM facing the facts, you’re the one denying reality, rejecting evidence that literally shows Infinity exists.
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July 19, 2017 at 9:36 pm
An inflexible order that commands submission without itself submitting for audit shall find itself phased out. The development of the universe is a complex process and cannot be generalised with high school maths, besides set theory offers the scope of script writing and probablity theory the predetermined plot, One doesn’t have to go very far to even solve equations with these. Regarding the comment millions of years – it cannot be a random process but an evolving process. All DNA is twisted on one and the same direction for all living beings including plants even amino acid – life’s building blocks which could not have occurred if the process was random. Religions view of the universe is human centric, cosmology views the universe as assymetric in itself, but if the human centric view is considered then why was a giant set (consisting of the galaxies and interstellar space all the physical properties they exhibit) had to be created when these have no influence whatsoever on the life and wellbieng of humans the focus subject, and of course a tiny subset ,of the set. Do i see the world dummy somewhere in the blog
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July 25, 2017 at 5:14 am
Think outside the box maybe?
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December 27, 2017 at 1:34 pm
Is it not foolish for ourselves to claim possibility over anything? How can we, as humans living inside the space time continuum, claim that there is nothing great enough to possibly exist independently, without the concept of time? It would be inexplicable to us to define how God could possibly cause something without the need of time, but instead time is his cause. We operate on time, and so therefore nothing can be beyond it? For me to say how Jehovah lives and causes physicality is like trying to explain to a 1st dimensional creature how you or I live within length and depth. It would blow them away and it would be impossible for them to understand.
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December 30, 2017 at 12:26 pm
kotaguy:
Is it not foolishness to describe the nature of our source, call it god, give her characteristically human qualities, the highest virtues, claim to be likened unto that image and behave like a bunch of serenghetti creatures bereft of any of the attributes we so easily demand out children to follow and regurgitate the useless pledges of peace on earth once to twice a year for pretense.
It’s like trying to tell humans the senselessness of their caricature concepts, myths and marauding madness who, never ever more than man struts across this planet as though he were never ever less than god; while messengers like Jesus, never ever less than achieving some semblance of the image of his concept of goodness, walked on this earth as though he was never ever more than man.
That’s the essential difference:
Now if ever there was a man who walked this earth who knew the truth about a man’s humanity and that relationship that must govern that man’s humanity, with Good and Good with him, that man was Jesus Christ. He just happened to be Good who realized that Good engineered man and who deliberately, though never himself never less than Good and insisted of his own free volition, something he need never ever have done, being never ever less than Good came into this world to behave as though he were never ever more than man.
As opposed of course to man, who being never ever more than man, struts across this planet and behaves as though he were never ever less than Good. That’s the essential difference. Jesus Christ never ever less than Good behaved as though he were never ever more than man; man never ever more than man behaves as though he was never ever less than Good. The truth about Good and the truth about man; in other words, the Lord Jesus and the one who assumed the office of the man knew exactly what that relationship would be that would govern his humanity on earth…and even Jesus said of himself “Why call me Good? There is only one that is Good…”
The Source he called Father.
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March 13, 2018 at 6:07 pm
“Now if ever there was a man who walked this earth who knew the truth about a man’s humanity and that relationship that must govern that man’s humanity, with Good and Good with him, that man was Jesus Christ. He just happened to be Good who realized that Good engineered man and who deliberately, though never himself never less than Good and insisted of his own free volition, something he need never ever have done, being never ever less than Good came into this world to behave as though he were never ever more than man.
As opposed of course to man, who being never ever more than man, struts across this planet and behaves as though he were never ever less than Good. That’s the essential difference. Jesus Christ never ever less than Good behaved as though he were never ever more than man; man never ever more than man behaves as though he was never ever less than Good. The truth about Good and the truth about man; in other words, the Lord Jesus and the one who assumed the office of the man knew exactly what that relationship would be that would govern his humanity on earth…and even Jesus said of himself “Why call me Good? There is only one that is Good…”
The Source he called Father.”
Nice narration, but completely irrelevant to any semblance of discussion about the Big Bang, the evolutionary synthesis, the existence of God as a supernatural entity, and the beginning of existence of the universe.
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March 13, 2018 at 6:15 pm
kotaguy:
“Is it not foolish for ourselves to claim possibility over anything?”
Why would it be?
“How can we, as humans living inside the space time continuum, claim that there is nothing great enough to possibly exist independently, without the concept of time?”
We are not claiming that nothing exists separate from the continuum of space-time, we merely are claiming that any entity separate from such a continuum can create it, because the act of creation necessarily engages in causality due to the necessity of change, and causality is necessarily obtained by the continuum of space-time.
“It would be inexplicable to us to define how God could possibly cause something without the need of time, but instead time is his cause.”
Are you somehow implying God can create causality itself, and thus time? This is self-contradicting though.
“We operate on time, and so therefore nothing can be beyond it?”
Every existing idea operates on time.
“For me to say how Jehovah…”
God’s true name is not Jehovah, according to scholars.
“…lives and causes physicality is like trying to explain to a 1st dimensional creature how you or I live within length and depth.”
Not at all. Humans are capable of comprehending 4 and 5 dimensions through mathematics. We are even able to comprehend tensor set spaces with infinitely uncountable dimensions in mathematics, yet we live in a universe that is presumably finite with creatures that cannot even draw three dimensional figures in a paper.
“It would blow them away and it would be impossible for them to understand.”
Maybe for them, not for us. Never.
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March 13, 2018 at 9:24 pm
Angel Mendez Rivera:
(CNN)Stephen Hawking, the brilliant British theoretical physicist who overcame a debilitating disease to publish wildly popular books probing the mysteries of the universe, has died, according to a family spokesman. He was 76.
Considered by many to be the world’s greatest living scientist, Hawking was also a cosmologist, astronomer, mathematician and author of numerous books including the landmark “A Brief History of Time,” which has sold more than 10 million copies.
With fellow physicist Roger Penrose, Hawking merged Einstein’s theory of relativity with quantum theory to suggest that space and time would begin with the Big Bang and end in black holes. Hawking also discovered that black holes are not completely black but emit radiation and will likely eventually evaporate and disappear.
Hawking suffered from ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), a neurodegenerative disease commonly known as Lou Gehrig’s Disease, which is usually fatal within a few years. He was diagnosed in 1963, when he was 21, and doctors initially only gave him a few years to live.
The disease left Hawking wheelchair-bound and paralyzed. He was able to move only a few fingers on one hand and was completely dependent on others or on technology for virtually everything — bathing, dressing, eating, even speech.
Hawking used a speech synthesizer that allowed him to speak in a computerized voice with an American accent.
“I try to lead as normal a life as possible, and not think about my condition, or regret the things it prevents me from doing, which are not that many,” he wrote on his website.
The amount of people trying to see Stephen Hawking’s thesis crashed Cambridge University’s website
“I have been lucky that my condition has progressed more slowly than is often the case. But it shows that one need not lose hope.”
Hawking was married twice. He and his first wife, Jane Wilde, wed when he was still a grad student and remained together for 30 years before divorcing in 1995. Hawking was later married for 11 years to Elaine mason, one of his former nurses.
Hawking was born in Oxford, England, on what turned out to be an auspicious date: January 8, 1942 — the 300th anniversary of the death of astronomer and physicist Galileo Galilei.
Stephen Hawking: ‘I may not be welcome’ in Trump’s America.
In an exclusive interview with CNN in October 2008, Hawking said that if humans can survive the next 200 years and learn to live in space, then our future will be bright.
“I believe that the long-term future of the human race must be in space,” Hawking told CNN’s Becky Anderson.
“It will be difficult enough to avoid disaster on planet Earth in the next 100 years, let alone next thousand, or million. The human race shouldn’t have all its eggs in one basket, or on one planet. Let’s hope we can avoid dropping the basket until we have spread the load.”
At Cambridge, he held the position of Lucian Professor of Mathematics — the prestigious post held from 1669 to 1702 by Sir Isaac Newton, widely considered one of the greatest scientists in modern history.
Yet Hawking once said if he had the chance to meet Newton or Marilyn Monroe, he would opt for the movie star.
Hawking became a hero to math and science geeks and pop culture figure, guest-starring as himself on “Star Trek: The Next Generation” and “The Simpsons.”
He had at least 12 honorary degrees and was awarded the CBE in 1982. A CBE, or Commander in the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, is considered a major honor for a British citizen and is one rank below knighthood.
Despite being a British citizen he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the US’s highest civilian honor, in 2009 by President Barack Obama.
In September 2016 Hawking joined 375 “concerned” scientists in penning an open letter criticizing then-presidential candidate Donald Trump, citing the threat of climate change and blasting his push for the US to leave the Paris Accord.
Hawking leaves behind three children and three grandchildren, according to his website.
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March 13, 2018 at 9:51 pm
A M R
space time continuum is just a bunch of words that mean what the theorists speculate about.
The Big Bang is a speculation; no time and space, just another speculation, mainly because we are cultured that everything has a beginning and an end; well; accept God that is, as religious believers believe it.
But just as believers can speculate about God always existing, I can speculate that the Cosmos has always existed and the Cosmos is the life Force that causes all manner of evolution, including life forms like human beings.
What then is the difference between the belief in the Father called God and the Father called Evolution or the Father Cosmos?
Common sense will tell you that there is nothing about the Father, by any name, has a personal relationship to the created and/or evolved species mankind?
Time is a man made word that merely slices and ties distance from one point to another…there was at first the sun dial; then came the clock. Man is constantly slicing and dicing. Take the Global Ocean for example; we cut into the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and so on, the China Sea, Southern Ocean but there is only one Ocean, the Global Ocean yet we have a need to designate sections of it.
A God that our neighbors believe in is essentially an invisible person, is a creator deity, who created the universe to have a relationship with one species of primate. Lucky us.
And he’s got galaxy upon galaxy to attend to but he’s especially concerned with what we do, and he’s especially concerned with what we do when naked. And he almost certainly disapproves of homosexuality and he’s created this cosmos as a vast laboratory in which to test our powers of credulity. And the test is this: Can you believe in this God on bad evidence, which is to say on faith? And if you can, you will win an eternity of happiness after you die.
The Big Bang is the Science’s God, more or less, but from where I sit, neither the Big Bang nor God ever existed; we simply slice and dice speculation for what we do not know, and that is the way of mankind from ancient mythology to modern Big Bang Theories.
That’s the way it is as far as we know today regardless of how we slice and dice technology to support one theory or hypothesis over another on. And the bandwagon rolls along and we learn as we evolve and we unfold as we must.
May the forces of GEM (Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism, et al, yet still be unfolding for Stephen Hawkings.
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March 13, 2018 at 9:56 pm
To not believe in God, or the Big Bang for that matter, is to know that it’s up to us to make the world a better place. We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism. It’s not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world; it is hard work to climb down out of the trees, walk upright and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project and progress is difficult.
Just picture going back a hundred generations within your own family, maybe just a hundred people. Picture your father’s father’s father, mother’s mother’s mother’s father, father’s father, on back. I don’t care how cultured you are, how well educated your family, you can be Matthew Chapman whose great great grandfather was Charles Darwin but if you just keep going, in no more than a hundred conversations you’re going to meet someone who thinks that sacrificing your first born child just might be a good way to control the weather.
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March 13, 2018 at 11:00 pm
“…space time continuum is just a bunch of words that mean what the theorists speculate about.”
Not at all. We can show it exists. We have physical evidence for it.
“The Big Bang is a speculation;…”
Not at all. We have plenty of evidence for the Big Bang.
“…no time and space, just another speculation,…”
Time and space exist. It is fairly easy. Science isn’t really needed for that either, it is just intuition that they exist too anyway.
“…mainly because we are cultured that everything has a beginning and an end;…”
No: because we have PROOF that the universe must’ve had a beginning.
“well; accept God that is, as religious believers believe it.”
The difference between the Big Bang and God is that there is evidence for the Big Bang, and mathematical proof that provided the laws of the universe as we know them, such as the laws of Newton, the universe had to have a beginning.
“But just as believers can speculate about God always existing, I can speculate that the Cosmos has always existed and the Cosmos is the life Force that causes all manner of evolution, including life forms like human beings.”
The cosmos isn’t a force. The cosmos is simply the universe itself. As for God existing, you cannot prove God exists. Also, we know the universe is real.
“What then is the difference between the belief in the Father called God and the Father called Evolution or the Father Cosmos?”
The difference is that the Cosmos is NOT our Father, nor it is a divine being.
“Common sense will tell you that there is nothing about the Father, by any name, has a personal relationship to the created and/or evolved species mankind?”
The cosmos has no special relationship to any beings of any sort at all. The cosmos just is.
“Time is a man made word that merely slices and ties distance from one point to another…there was at first the sun dial; then came the clock.”
This is where scientific evidence proves you wrong. The fact that a clock runs slower in the Everest than in the Equator proves that time is more than just a construct.
“Man is constantly slicing and dicing. Take the Global Ocean for example; we cut into the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and so on, the China Sea, Southern Ocean but there is only one Ocean, the Global Ocean yet we have a need to designate sections of it.”
This is because the Ocean is very different in salinity and properties depending on which section you are.
“A God that our neighbors believe in is essentially an invisible person, is a creator deity, who created the universe to have a relationship with one species of primate. Lucky us.”
Yes, but it is possible to prove that it is actually impossible for any supernatural entity to create a universe such as ours at all, as I have proven before multiple times.
“And he’s got galaxy upon galaxy to attend to but he’s especially concerned with what we do, and he’s especially concerned with what we do when naked. And he almost certainly disapproves of homosexuality and he’s created this cosmos as a vast laboratory in which to test our powers of credulity. And the test is this: Can you believe in this God on bad evidence, which is to say on faith?”
Not really, why would I?
“And if you can, you will win an eternity of happiness after you die. The Big Bang is the Science’s God, more or less, but from where I sit, neither the Big Bang nor God ever existed;…”
The difference is that we do not believe that the Big Bang occurred based on faith, we do it based on evidence, and I already presented the evidence in previous discussions.
“we simply slice and dice speculation for what we do not know, and that is the way of mankind from ancient mythology to modern Big Bang Theories.”
Except we do know the Big Bang happened, it is not speculation. I already explained this.
“That’s the way it is as far as we know today regardless of how we slice and dice technology to support one theory or hypothesis over another on. And the bandwagon rolls along and we learn as we evolve and we unfold as we must.
May the forces of GEM (Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism, et al, yet still be unfolding for Stephen Hawkings.”
We support theories with evidence.
“To not believe in God, or the Big Bang for that matter, is to know that it’s up to us to make the world a better place.”
Not at all. There is no need to deny science to make the world a better place. In fact, science is required to make the world a better place. Human history is evidence of this.
“We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism.”
Yes, because only recently this people begin to use science as the tool it is supposed ot be.
“It’s not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world; it is hard work to climb down out of the trees, walk upright and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project and progress is difficult.”
Yes, but more progress would be made if there were less science deniers such as yourself.
“Just picture going back a hundred generations within your own family, maybe just a hundred people. Picture your father’s father’s father, mother’s mother’s mother’s father, father’s father, on back. I don’t care how cultured you are, how well educated your family, you can be Matthew Chapman whose great great grandfather was Charles Darwin but if you just keep going, in no more than a hundred conversations you’re going to meet someone who thinks that sacrificing your first born child just might be a good way to control the weather.”
Yes, which is why denying science as you are is very problematic. You’ve proven my point. Thank you very much. Now that that is over…
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March 13, 2018 at 11:29 pm
AMR:
I am not a denier of science; I am a denier of the supernatural but science is being used to support the speculation of the Big Bang Theory; that’s why it is called the big bang theory. What evidence can you cite that proves the Big Bang?
You might say “The cosmic microwave background (CMB) is electromagnetic radiation as a remnant from an early stage of the universe in Big Bang cosmology.” but I believe you’d be wrong, as that radiation only fuels the speculation to the neglect of other factors that need to be taken into account.
The Cosmos as a universe is in flux and it is from that flux that we and the stars are birthed.
Just because you deny my points doesn’t make your denial correct, in your mind your denial may be true but only in your mind, as a robot of protocol without discretionary insight, used to support in vogue scientific speculation.
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March 13, 2018 at 11:40 pm
The temperature of CMB is uniform to better than one part in a thousand! This uniformity is one compelling reason to interpret the radiation as remnant heat from the Big Bang; it would be very difficult to imagine a local source of radiation that was this uniform. In fact, many scientists have tried to devise alternative explanations for the source of this radiation, but none have succeeded.
Please Note the phrase: “……..This ……….. is one compelling reason to interpret the radiation as remnant heat from the Big Bang;”
Notice the words “to interpret” does not translate into “to prove”.
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March 14, 2018 at 6:55 am
At least science in speculating the “big bang”, uses intuitive logic to not interpret such an origin as the “big tri-bang”.
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March 14, 2018 at 9:54 am
“I am not a denier of science; I am a denier of the supernatural but science is being used to support the speculation of the Big Bang Theory…;”
1. It is not speculation, since there is evidence demonstrating it must have happened, as well as the mathematics that we use from the laws of nature we currently have. No other phenomenon which fits the mathematics can explain the evidence.
“..that’s why it is called the big bang theory.”
Yes, it is called a THEORY because there is multiple independent sources of multiple forms of evidence to verify that the assertions are true with a confidence level so high that it is absurd and irrational to deny its truth: it’d be equivalent of denying the claim 2+2=4 as true.
According to http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scientific-theory
scientific theory: noun
-a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation
The word theory means it has been verified. If it were speculation, it would have the name hypothesis. It is not a hypothesis, it is a theory, because it has been verified.
“What evidence can you cite that proves the Big Bang?”
Plenty. Hubble’s Law, General Relativity, the CMBR, the presence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, the Standard Model, isotropy and homogeneity at grand scales, and finally our understanding of galaxy formation and nucleosynthesis. I’m sure there is more, but this is the mainstream.
“You might say “The cosmic microwave background (CMB) is electromagnetic radiation as a remnant from an early stage of the universe in Big Bang cosmology.” but I believe you’d be wrong, as that radiation only fuels the speculation to the neglect of other factors that need to be taken into account.”
This is where you’re wrong. All factors are taken into account for mathematically. If there were multiple possibilities, then the mathematics would reflect it by leaving a single parameter as indeterminate, but this is not the case. We know that the horizon of the observable universe has been aligned with the CMBR since cosmic inflation occurred. This means that any source that created it had to be moving according to said expansion. But nothing can actually move as fast as the expansion, as we can show with relativity, so the only option is that it had to result from the expansion consequent by the Big Bang. You can claim we’re missing some factors, but you’d be wrong. Just because you claim science is wrong (science-denier) it does not mean you are correct. Go right ahead and go against the experts as much as you want to. You surely should stop going to the doctors. You know more about medicine than they do, even though they have decades more of education and research knowledge than you do. They’re missing so many factors in diseases they’re not accounting for that you are accounting for magically. In fact. this makes you a god. There is no need for you to go to a doctor, because you can just cure cancer, because you know something no trained doctor in the planet does.
“The Cosmos as a universe is in flux and it is from that flux that we and the stars are birthed.”
You have no idea of what a flux is, because that sentence is pure nonsense.
“Just because you deny my points doesn’t make your denial correct, in your mind your denial may be true but only in your mind, as a robot of protocol without discretionary insight, used to support in vogue scientific speculation.”
Just because you deny the evidence doesn’t make your denial correct; in your denial may be true but only in your mind, as a robot of ignorant dogma with critical thinking, used to support bogus conclusions. Just stop talking and teach me the secret to the world already. Since science is incorrect (because if the Big Bang Theory is incorrect, then it is only incorrect because science is incorrect and unreliable, because it is impossible for one to be correct without the other since one is produced by the other), I’m going to abandon it and I’m going to follow your religion. Teach me, Lord.
On a serious note though, you’re a fool. Acting like you know more than science does and pretending you understand the topic better than the experts on a conversation you have done 0 research on whatsoever, and yet you criticize people for being dogmatic and religious? You’re literally being dogmatic by your stance. What a hypocrisy. How boring.
“The temperature of CMB is uniform to better than one part in a thousand! This uniformity is one compelling reason to interpret the radiation as remnant heat from the Big Bang; it would be very difficult to imagine a local source of radiation that was this uniform. In fact, many scientists have tried to devise alternative explanations for the source of this radiation, but none have succeeded.”
This is wrong. This is not about interpretation. Data is objective. Mathematics is objective. The scientific method is objective. These can be applied regardless of age, sex, culture, or music preference. If we want to know what a set of data implicates for the laws of nature, we simply plug it into the mathematical models that we have to see what it represents mathematically. Then we find the physical situation corresponding to the results of the mathematical model, and we confirm the theory. If we do not find it, then the mathematical model is flawed, and we must modify or replace it. We propose a new model, we use the data, we compare again, we look at what it represents, and try to fit it to reality with more data that we find. If we fail again, we try again until we find a mathematical model which fits. The model that fits best given all the data is the Big Bang Theory. So it is the best true explanation. You can choose to deny this, it does not make it less true.
“Please Note the phrase: “……..This ……….. is one compelling reason to interpret the radiation as remnant heat from the Big Bang;”
Notice the words “to interpret” does not translate into “to prove”.”
Agreed, they do not translate to this. However, you missed the point. Science isn’t literature. Science isn’t a book you read and you interpret with metaphors following your own heart. No, science is a method that works universally, and history has taught us this.
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March 14, 2018 at 11:49 am
I can’t believe that “Angel” is actually your name but if it is you should stop using it because there is nothing angelic about the way you communicate to people.
You are the one who knows everything so why don’t you tell the doctors how to cure cancer.
Of course that is a ridiculous comparison but you gravitated to using it like a mentally ill teacher likening a student’s suggestion about physics to curing cancer because she knows everything. Scientific ideas are not ludicrous but your ideology about it is.
You have no idea what flux means; you need to take English as a second language (ESL)
Here’s another “nonsense” sentence for you to deride in your scornful style of communication. You communicate in the style of Donald Trump towards those who disagree.
FLUX: The noun flux describes something that constantly changes.
The Cosmos; hence the Universe, is in a state of flux.
A blowhard who tries to build oneself up by denigrating others only demonstrates that person’s low esteem and insecurity.
narcissism definition:
IN PSYCHOLOGY
extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one’s own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
IN PSYCHOANALYSIS
self-centeredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder.
Based on the evidence of your writing style, I interpret you to be suffering from a form of mental illness, not unlike that of a believer defending mythomania; aka, pseudologia fantastic.
And so I leave you to work out your own devise. This is not “good”bye; this is just “bye”. There is nothing I can do further for you; my wish you however, is an eternity without infirmity.
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March 14, 2018 at 12:43 pm
“I can’t believe that “Angel” is actually your name but if it is you should stop using it because there is nothing angelic about the way you communicate to people.”
You should stop using the username LeoTheGreater because there is nothing great about you.
“You are the one who knows everything so why don’t you tell the doctors how to cure cancer.”
I never claimed to know more than any scientist in the world. This why I trust the scientific method and follow the evidence. You’re the one who thinks scientists are wrong in their “interpretation” of evidence (which, by the way, is nonsense, because evidence isn’t interpreted, it simply is compared with hypotheses and mathematics), so you’re therefore the one implying you know better than scientists.
“Of course that is a ridiculous comparison but you gravitated to using it like a mentally ill teacher likening a student’s suggestion about physics to curing cancer because she knows everything.”
To stupid ideas, stupid responses. My comparison was absurd because the belief which lead to it, called science-denial, which is what you presented, is absurd.
“Scientific ideas are not ludicrous but your ideology about it is.”
No. My only ideology about scientific ideas is that they are correct as long as the scientific method is correctly followed, and it is easy for anyone to corroborate that in this particular scenario, it is being used correctly.
“You have no idea what flux means; you need to take English as a second language (ESL)”
I’m trilingual. Flux is the quantity of stuff traveling through any given surface per unit area. Very different from what you said earlier. Maybe you need to take ESL, even though presumably English is your first language.
“Here’s another “nonsense” sentence for you to deride in your scornful style of communication. You communicate in the style of Donald Trump towards those who disagree.”
This is coming from the arrogant person who thinks that everything they say is automatically true by default, even if it can be demonstrated false easily, such as the idea that science is flawed and that there is no evidence for the Big Bang, even though you can literally go on Google and type “evidence for Big Bang” and you’ll be given a long enough list and the explanations. I’m not the ignorant one here. We also had a long conversation months ago in which I showed you all of the evidence and you simply had conceded and stopped opposing me until you started opposing me again recently. You’re the dogmatic one here.
“FLUX: The noun flux describes something that constantly changes.”
Nope.
“The Cosmos; hence the Universe, is in a state of flux.”
Nope. There is nothing coming in or out of the universe. I already gave you the definition of flux. Giving me a wrong definition changes nothing.
“A blowhard who tries to build oneself up by denigrating others only demonstrates that person’s low esteem and insecurity.”
I never denigrated you, I merely made a comparison to demonstrate the absurdity of your thinking. If you think the act of using logic and facts to make an idea seem absurd is insulting and offensive, then you’re too immature to have a civil exchange of ideas.
“narcissism definition:
IN PSYCHOLOGY
extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one’s own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.”
Yeah, I don’t consider myself particularly talented, I simply follow scientific evidence, which, when someone does not do it, it is inherently absurd and irrational.
“IN PSYCHOANALYSIS
self-centeredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder.”
Jokes on you, psychoanalysis is not a science and all their analysis was disproven centuries ago. Also, I do have the capacity to distinguish myself from other objects. For example, I’m capable of distinguishing myself from the universe itself.
“Based on the evidence of your writing style, I interpret you to be suffering from a form of mental illness, not unlike that of a believer defending mythomania; aka, pseudologia fantastic.”
Not a mental disorder according to the DSM-5. Also,you’re not a doctor, so your diagnosis is inaccurate and irrelevant to me. As for you, your writing style shows that you’re simply immature and unable to accept that you’re wrong when evidence is presented to you showing that you indeed are wrong.
“And so I leave you to work out your own devise. This is not “good”bye; this is just “bye”. There is nothing I can do further for you; my wish you however, is an eternity without infirmity.”
My wish for you is that you grow up one day and learn to accept evidence rather than your own ego as a source of knowledge. I’m glad you’re done here, I don’t need to waste time discussing knowledge with someone who doesn’t want it.
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March 15, 2018 at 7:33 am
jeepers….that’s the most extensive personal attack I’ve ever seen.
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March 18, 2018 at 9:58 am
If some day we establish the existence of some kind of multiverse as scientific fact, we will have to rethink if our universe is indeed an isolated system. This will, of course, depend on the exact nature of this multiverse and, in particular, how the different universes interact.
Scientists have been rethinking the universe since the year dot.
Hawkins claimed that black holes leak radiation and therefore will eventually dissolve; clearly rethinking the former theory that whatever is sucked into the black hole can never escape. Then Hawkings did some rethinking.
First agreeing with the general thinking, Hawkings said that everything ever sucked into a black hole would be lost forever; however, in his rethinking after stating that the black hole leaks radiation, one wonders if the leaking is merely a recycling phase of everything sucked in previously and pops out as cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) because of its temperature, like so many Mount Vesuvius eruptions over billions of years and which the Laws of entropy force the expansion of the universe. hmmmmm. Slowing the disorder or putting the brakes on the expansion.
While the first phase of the Black Hole recycling process sucks everything into itself, including light and energy, the emission phase returns the recycled energy back into the system and the entropy.
Which leads me back to the beginning:
“If some day we establish the existence of some kind of scientific fact, we will have to rethink our universe”
Will we ever have to stop rethinking the universe? I think we will rethink if we live long enough to rid the desire of ego to disengage the thinking that a limited nuclear conflict is possible to consolidate power into a singular oligarchy; or, on the other hand are we on the verge of civilization wipeout out of which will come another phase in the recycling process of human extinction, pathogens growing to dinosaurian proportion, the mammalian evolutionary processes, the final first phase of the mammalian dynasty as the control of fire is discovered and contained never to be left unattended once harnessed in the ark of the covenant that was not allowed to go out by day or night.
And more slowly but eventually, when the science of flint sparks and the tinder box (precursor matchbox) revolutionized the safety and protection of upright man from the predator dinosaurs and other evolving pathogens that grew so huge they became the big predators of the Serengeti. IN other words, the predators that have survived grew from microscopic pathogens that had no controls on appetite but its own evolutionary processes and so they grew and became the dinosaurs and natural predators that lived and reigned in days of old and remnants that are still with us today, lions and tigers, rhinos, elephants, hippos, alligators, crocodiles, lizards, reptiles, birds and fish, uncompelled growth that turned microscopic fleas, virus, bacteria and fungi led to giant pathogen dinosaurs.
Is civilization on the cusp of ancient conflagrations, nuclear deserts and uncontrolled spread of evolutionary life forms? Are we on the verge of virtual “Groundhog day” based on the movie Groundhog Day about a man reliving the same day over and over and over. Every time he wakes up it’s Groundhog Day again, and people always say the same things and do the same things over and over, and he’s the only one who is aware of the infinite repetition.”
In other words history repeating itself and we have no recollection of the past other than what we have discovered through archaeology, remnant dinosaur bones that form whole skeletons, digs, deserts and uranium radiation and some ancient cave drawings, chiseled scratching and primitive writings.
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March 19, 2018 at 6:54 am
What Hawking never saw……………….
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct); and shall (in the future) ascend out of the bottomless pit (oil wells), and go into perdition (be used for combustion..burning): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (invent things), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (a population explosion), when they behold (discover) the beast that was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct), and yet is (fossil fuels).
The irony of the greatest world civilization is that the epitomy of mankind’s efforts have been founded on a black ooze originating from the death of an entire prior ecosystem. Dinosaurs were large for a reason. To be a vast repository of organic matter. Fossil fuel, a black ooze primarily used for gasoline, and identified by 6 6-sided (organic) molecules of the 6th element (carbon). Carbon, the element of life. The molecules being benzene, toluene, ethyl benzene and 3 isomers of xylene.
And, why does fossil fuels even exist? Because of the devil’s rebellion in which a great struggle killed nearly all prehistoric life on the planet. And, then the Genesis creation begins and mankind comes into being to REplenish the planet.
What does any of this show? It shows that WE were anticipated. Not through a series of happenstance but through careful planning on the part of Someone. Planning indicated by a series of events spanning billions of years that come together in a story so shocking as to leave no doubt as to the existence of Someone out there. Planning that indicates the sequence has yet to be completed.
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March 23, 2018 at 11:17 am
“jeepers….that’s the most extensive personal attack I’ve ever seen.”
He took the time to write an essay diagnosing me with several mental disorders, along with my name and other aspects of my life based off the fact that I made an analogy to show how ridiculous his already-disproven argument was. My response should have been expected, and what I told to him is well deserved.
“What Hawking never saw……………….
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct); and shall (in the future) ascend out of the bottomless pit (oil wells), and go into perdition (be used for combustion..burning): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (invent things), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (a population explosion), when they behold (discover) the beast that was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct), and yet is (fossil fuels).”
There is no reason to think the Bible is correct or accurate, since many of the books within the Bible have been disproven by science, mathematics, history, or logic. Although, even if the Bible were correct, providing a verse in English from a very specific translation among thousands of inconsistent, contradictory translations of a Book that was originally not translatable is misleading. If you use an original verse from the original scripture with a working, peer-reviewed translation, then maybe the verse will be worth discussing at all on whether it is scientifically and historically accurate or not.
“The irony of the greatest world civilization is that the epitome of mankind’s efforts have been founded on a black ooze originating from the death of an entire prior ecosystem.”
Fossil fuels are not an ooze, and in many cases they are not even liquid.
“Dinosaurs were large for a reason. To be a vast repository of organic matter.”
No, they were large because it was evolutionarily advantageous. There is and was no purpose behind their existence, there was only evolutionary explanation. Dinosaurs were the dominating class of animals in the Earth because of their size, something which they probably would have not been able to do without the size. They were big because they needed to survive. Biology 101.
“Fossil fuel, a black ooze primarily used for gasoline, and identified by 6 6-sided (organic) molecules of the 6th element (carbon).”
A fossil fuel is not a pure molecular substance, so your description is not quite correct.
“Carbon, the element of life. The molecules being benzene, toluene, ethyl benzene and 3 isomers of xylene.”
There are many molecules, but sure. Also, carbon is not the only molecule necessary for life.
“And, why does fossil fuels even exist? Because of the devil’s rebellion in which a great struggle killed nearly all prehistoric life on the planet.”
No, fossil fuels exist thanks to the bacteria who decompose organic matter to form these fuels as a by-product of their feeding on carbon-products. This has nothing to do with the devil, who probably does not exist.
“And, then the Genesis creation begins and mankind comes into being to REplenish the planet.”
Except the Genesis narration is false. Science has proven it to be false, and even certain denominations of Orthodox Judaism acknowledge that the true purpose of Genesis was literary tribute to creation mythology from their ancestor communities as part of their foundation of their religion.
“What does any of this show?”
It shows that the Bible is inaccurate, and that as such, there is no reason to think any of the core tenets of Christianity or any of the consequential doctrines are true.
“It shows that WE were anticipated.”
No, we were not anticipated. The evidence shows humans evolved from other ancestral extinct species, and fossil fuels had no purpose in existence. The same is true for dinosaurs. In fact, to say that life has a purpose is nonsense, because the notion of a purpose implies there is some need or desire to be satisfied from creating it, but we know that the creators of fossil fuels, bacteria, have no consciousness, and as such cannot have intent of creation, so they had no purpose. As for life having a purpose, there is no evidence that it does have a purpose, or that it can even have one. The idea of life having a purpose is fallacious because it assumes design, which cannot be proven, and it assumes that there is desire which life’s creation must meet, assuming we could show it was created, which the evidence disproves, but there cannot be such a desire due to the fact that in order for a being to have had such a desire, they would have had to know what not being lonely or what having other conscious, living creatures meant, and this not possible because there was no life to begin with for this feeling to exist.
“Not through a series of happenstance but through careful planning on the part of Someone.”
No one said life occurred by happenstance. As far as we understand, life arose not randomly, but rather deterministically. This is to say, the laws of nature to some extent guaranteed that life had to exist under the conditions in which it did. This would be true regardless of whether a god, deity or creator exists or not.
“Planning indicated by a series of events spanning billions of years that come together in a story so shocking as to leave no doubt as to the existence of Someone out there.”
They leave plenty of doubt of this person’s existence because they fail to suggest this existence in the first place. There was no planning involved.
“Planning that indicates the sequence has yet to be completed.”
Again, the scientific conclusions we can arrive at with our models and evidence, as well as what logic can tell us, indicate that there was no planning involved. If you want to claim that there was planning involved, you either need to provide evidence, or prove it without fallacies, which you have not done because I managed to explain every anomaly you discussed without appealing to planning, implying that it proves not that planning occurred.
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March 23, 2018 at 11:52 am
“If some day we establish the existence of some kind of multiverse as scientific fact, we will have to rethink if our universe is indeed an isolated system.”
Not necessarily, but possibly.
“This will, of course, depend on the exact nature of this multiverse and, in particular, how the different universes interact.”
Indeed.
“Scientists have been rethinking the universe since the year dot.”
Not quite. Scientists have rethought the universe several times, but only due to the presence of new evidence which contradicted their previous conclusions. However, without any such evidence, there is no reason to rethink the universe.
“Hawkins claimed that black holes leak radiation and therefore will eventually dissolve; clearly rethinking the former theory that whatever is sucked into the black hole can never escape.”
Not true. You misunderstand what his claims actually mean. The fact that Hawking radiation exists is not a contradiction to the fact that no object, including traveling photons, can escape the gravitational field of a black-hole when located near the event of horizon. Hawking radiation is not an object escaping the gravitational field of a black-hole, but rather it is a decay of the black hole itself.
“Then Hawkings did some rethinking.
First agreeing with the general thinking, Hawkings said that everything ever sucked into a black hole would be lost forever; however, in his rethinking after stating that the black hole leaks radiation, one wonders if the leaking is merely a recycling phase of everything sucked in previously and pops out as cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) because of its temperature…,”
No. 1. The cosmic microwave background of radiation and black-holes are 100% unrelated, one has no effect on the other. The radiation which is emitted by a black hole is not microwave radiation. In fact, it is not electromagnetic radiation at all. 2. The radiation which comes from black holes is not radiation produced by the objects inside the black hole.
“…like so many Mount Vesuvius eruptions over billions of years and which the Laws of entropy force the expansion of the universe.”
They’re not laws of entropy, they’re laws of thermodynamics. Also, there is no law of “entropy” or of thermodynamics which forces the universe to expand. The 0th Law of Thermodynamics indicates that, if two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics indicates that the energy content of an isolated system is always conserved. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics indicates that for any isolated system, which is to say for the universe, the total amount of entropy increases for every thermodynamic, natural interaction. The 3rd Law of Thermodynamics indicates that for a perfect crystal, as the temperature approaches the absolute zero, the entropy approaches a constant equal to the natural logarithm of the product of quantum states, which is approximately equal to 0. None of these laws say anything about expansion, because expansion is completely unrelated to thermodynamics. I suggest you study the definition of entropy before trying to make absurd claims next time.
“hmmmmm. Slowing the disorder or putting the brakes on the expansion.”
We can slow the increase of disorder in the universe, but disorder and expansion are completely unrelated ideas. Get this out of your head already.
“While the first phase of the Black Hole recycling process sucks everything into itself, including light and energy, the emission phase returns the recycled energy back into the system and the entropy.”
It is not recycled energy, and it does not return it back to the system because it never left the system. Black holes are part of the universe, so they are inside the system. Also, entropy is not a physical object, neither is energy. So your last sentence is nonsense.
“Which leads me back to the beginning:
“If some day we establish the existence of some kind of scientific fact, we will have to rethink our universe” ”
Not necessarily. A god could very well exist currently, and our universe would not operate any differently than it already does. A universe with a god can operate differently, but it need not do so.
“Will we ever have to stop rethinking the universe? I think we will rethink if we live long enough to rid the desire of ego to disengage the thinking that a limited nuclear conflict is possible to consolidate power into a singular oligarchy; or, on the other hand are we on the verge of civilization wipeout out of which will come another phase in the recycling process of human extinction, pathogens growing to dinosaurian proportion,…”
Pathogens cannot grow to dinosaur proportions because pathogens typically never have more than a few thousand cells at once.You’d know this if you actually knew what a pathogen is to begin with. If you want to discuss scientfic topics, then please educate yourself in those topics first.
“the mammalian evolutionary processes, the final first phase of the mammalian dynasty as the control of fire is discovered and contained never to be left unattended once harnessed in the ark of the covenant that was not allowed to go out by day or night.”
What?
“And more slowly but eventually, when the science of flint sparks and the tinder box (precursor matchbox) revolutionized the safety and protection of upright man from the predator dinosaurs and other evolving pathogens that grew so huge they became the big predators of the Serengeti.”
I think you just have no idea of how evolution works. Evolution is a deterministic natural process which produces species which are unique to the genetic pools, epigenetic expression, and the climatic environment in which the species inhabits. It is impossible to recreate any of these exactly as they were when humans originated, so no species like us will arise in the evolutionary future. Humans weren’t bound to exist just because, but rather they were a consequence of a process based on the environment.
“IN other words, the predators that have survived grew from microscopic pathogens that had no controls on appetite…”
100% false. Please review biology 101. At this point, you’re making absurd claims you wouldn’t make if you weren’t ignorant on this topic. I’m not a professor, and I’m not going to teach you a middle-school biology course with the basics. That is your responsibility, not mine. If you want to have a debate, please come educated.
“…but its own evolutionary processes and so they grew and became the dinosaurs and natural predators that lived and reigned in days of old and remnants that are still with us today, lions and tigers, rhinos, elephants, hippos, alligators, crocodiles, lizards, reptiles, birds and fish, uncompelled growth that turned microscopic fleas, virus, bacteria and fungi led to giant pathogen dinosaurs.”
Again, not how evolution works, and not how evolutionary history went. I repeat: just retake biology. For your own sake. You’re making this discussoin much harder than it needs to be.
“Is civilization on the cusp of ancient conflagrations, nuclear deserts and uncontrolled spread of evolutionary life forms? Are we on the verge of virtual “Groundhog day” based on the movie Groundhog Day about a man reliving the same day over and over and over?”
No. Groundhog day is a movie, it is fiction. Events of that type do no occur in reality. Seriously.
“Every time he wakes up it’s Groundhog Day again, and people always say the same things and do the same things over and over, and he’s the only one who is aware of the infinite repetition.”
Again, a movie. No one cares. In science, things don’t just repeat themselves.
“In other words history repeating itself and we have no recollection of the past other than what we have discovered through archaeology, remnant dinosaur bones that form whole skeletons, digs, deserts and uranium radiation and some ancient cave drawings, chiseled scratching and primitive writings.”
There is no evidence that history is repeating itself. Furthermore, it is provably impossible for history to be repeating itself exactly as you describe it. We have evidence to look into fossils as far back as the creation of the Earth itself. Our fossil record is evidence that species throughout evolutionary history don’t just repeat themselves with exact civilizations and all. How absurd.
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March 23, 2018 at 1:08 pm
Hahahahahhahahahahha……….OMG
Hahahahahahahaha
Knowing everything? It must be a terrible burden to bear the loneliness.
Tell us why the spectrum is not the spectrum.
How evolution works.
Why we are here?
Why you are here for a different reason.
Where are we going? Where are you going?
And why?
Will Man achieve immortality why or why not.
When will immortality arrive on earth?
When will all disease be irradiated from humanity.
Why it will not.
And then
Why it will.
You can answer yes or no anything, and both answers will be correct ……
Hahahahahahahahahah omg
Hahahahahahahah
Credibility is surpassed only by ludicrity.
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March 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm
“Knowing everything? It must be a terrible burden to bear the loneliness.”
I’m not lonely, and I never claimed that I know everything. In fact, I’m aware that it is impossible to know everything. However, I’m a scientist, and I know plenty of scientific facts, many of which are being misrepresented in this conversation, and many of the claims here either reflect lack of understanding of a certain topic, or are just false. I’m simply correcting this.
“Tell us why the spectrum is not the spectrum.”
I cannot answer this without first knowing which spectrum you’re asking about.
“How evolution works.”
I can try to explain how evolution works, but any intellectually honest empirically adequate explanation of evolution would require several book lengths worth of text, so I will prefer to leave this for another occasion.
“Why we are here?”
This question fundamentally assumes that the notion of purpose of existence is logically meaningful. Purpose is only logically meaningful as it applies to constructs and entities subject to causality, but existence is neither, so the notion of purpose of existence is not logically meaningful. Therefore, your answer cannot be meaningfully answered as the question itself is meaningless.
“Why you are here for a different reason.”
See answer above.
“Where are we going?”
Wherever we choose to go.
“Where are you going?”
The answer is not interesting, so I will refrain.
“And why?”
I know not why humanity chooses to go where they go, but the reason I go the way I go is because I think it is the most appropriate choice for me.
“Will Man achieve immortality why or why not.”
It is possible to achieve immortality in hypothesis, but if we evaluate the probabilities, then most likely not. There is not deterministic answer though, so it is impossible to know for certain.
“When will immortality arrive on earth?”
I’m not sure what this question means, but there is no reason it should ever arrive at all. It will arrive when someone makes it possible for it to arrive.
“When will all disease be irradiated from humanity.”
Never. Evolution makes it impossible for all disease to be eradicated. As we eradicate the existing diseases, new ones will be formed.
“Why it will not.”
See above.
“And then
Why it will.”
It won’t.
“You can answer yes or no anything, and both answers will be correct ……”
This is impossible. A question cannot have both yes and no as correct answers, this is impossible by the principle of non-contradiction.
“Hahahahahahahahahah omg
Hahahahahahahah”
Why is this funny?
“Credibility is surpassed only by ludicrity.”
I’m not sure how this is relevant. I never made an appeal to credibility, I only made an appeal to understanding.
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March 23, 2018 at 4:24 pm
You don’t have to claim to know everything; your writings speak louder than a than an unclaimed boast and if that is not the case,,,,,,,,,,,
Tell one thing you don’t know, Two things? hahaha
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March 24, 2018 at 7:34 am
quoting the laws of thermodynamics and evolution toward increased complexity is contradictory to chaos theorem. Speculation about “multi-universes” is simply an admission that science has no clue about reality. Hawking was also wrong about black holes “leaking” when the inverse is obvious. Even a black hole exists in nothingness and the laws of thermodynamics dictate that equilibrium relative to an infinite void must take precedence over the finiteness of black hole gravity. So, Hawking radiation isn’t “leaking”. As with the universe in general, it is dissipating into that infinite void by an emptiness greater than gravity. Science should not have been surprised that the rate of expansion of the universe is increasing and will continue to do so, being pulled apart in a vain attempt to fill infinity. As simple classic physics dictates, this rate of expansion will be exponential rather than linear and has nothing directly attributable with the questionable existence of dark matter.
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March 24, 2018 at 8:21 am
hmmmm….I see nothing in your diatribe that directly contradicts the passage I quoted. Fossil fuels did not occur by bacterial action. Quite the opposite. It was generated by an ecosystem cataclysmically buried with the subsequent consequence of heat and pressure. Bacterial action conversely breaks down organic molecules. And the “goo” that comes from the ground is an incredible mix of literally thousands of organic molecules. These are separated by “cracking” into dozens of different sub-mixtures. The primary extraction being gasoline but even non-volatile residuals are used as road material (asphalt). What we then have is a world civilization built upon the many uses of that “goo” that has resulted in an exponential human population explosion and an increase in life due to the many inventions directly related to fossil fuels (medicines, clothes, pesticides, herbicides, food, etc). However, gasoline is the primary use which is scientifically identified within a mixture of “gasoline range organics” by 6 hexagonal molecules called “BTEX”. Look it up if you don’t believe me. And, there’s more. Roads are based on fossil fuels (“mark” or path of the “beast”) in the form of skyways, roads, shipping lanes which determine where civilization goes and commerce is based almost exclusively on transportation (may only buy/sell in accordance with the “beast”…..Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark (roads, etc), or the name of the beast (sub-mixture), or the number of his name (gasoline)) and all based on the “image” of the “beast” which are cars, planes, ships and all manner of transport which mimic what was once life. Have you ever wondered why many of our cars are named after animals? These are our beasts of transport which is what the “beast” represents..transportation. And when we get into a vehicle, don’t we use our “heads” and right hands to turn the key, to start the motor and drive? (Revelation 13:16 And he (it) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand (car keys), or in their foreheads (driving license):). We think all this as “normal”. But, it is not. And, the further into John’s prophesy we get, the more his predictive parallel correlates. Even to smoke coming from the pit to darken the skies (combustive smog and air pollution)…Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit (oil wells); and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit(air pollution).). If you deny such predictive parallel you deny our own reality my friend. The statistics of correlation dictate the impossibility of such details being happenstance. By simple statistics, mathematical certainty correlates today’s reality to John’s visions with a probability of nearly 100% due to the number of correlative inferences with what John saw. Such a correlation can be made with only 3 points and at a probability as low as 85% but I’ve show literally dozens. And there’s even more than what I’ve briefly described. The Bible isn’t some mamby pamby ancient religious tome. Its as real as we are. Christianity hasn’t a clue.
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April 4, 2018 at 1:25 pm
“You don’t have to claim to know everything; your writings speak louder than a than an unclaimed boast…”
This is not true. It is not logically possible to derive such a conclusion from my premises, and if you do, then you’re bad at performing deductions.
“…and if that is not the case,,,,,,,,,,,
Tell one thing you don’t know, Two things? hahaha”
I’ll go a step further and provide with a list of things I don’t know rather than just providing one or two things to prove a point.
1. I don’t know whether there is a multiverse or not.
2. I don’t know whether intelligent extraterrestrial exists for certain or not.
3. I don’t know what will happen if I get thrown inside a black hole.
4. I don’t know if the hypotheses of string theory are true or false.
5. I don’t know whether the continuum hypotheses is true.
6. I don’t know what was it that my best friend ate at 9:00 a.m., or whether he ate anything at all.
7. I don’t know if you’ll ever stop being a disrespectful person who makes assumptions about what other people think, say or mean without any actual evidence. Now get off my neck.
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April 4, 2018 at 2:22 pm
To kimberly,
“quoting the laws of thermodynamics and evolution toward increased complexity is contradictory to chaos theorem.”
It isn’t. For starters, there isn’t such a thing called ‘the chaos theorem’. The only two theorem-like or theories of chaos that exist are the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKelvey%E2%80%93Schofield_chaos_theoremor the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory. The former is a theorem concerning social policy, which is completely unrelated to our discussion. The latter is the study of the sensitivity to initial conditions of a system and the fact that small changes make systems immediately unpredictable and entirely chaotic. It has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics and evolu