There are many illegitimate critiques of Intelligent Design (the hypothesis that some features of the world are best explained in terms of an intelligent cause rather than undirected natural processes). One example is the charge often leveled against ID that it improperly uses probability statistics to infer design. For example, in a BBC documentary titled The War on Science, Ken Miller accused IDers of making the mistake of calculating probabilities after-the-fact, making the unlikely seem impossible:
One of the mathematical tricks employed by intelligent design involves taking the present day situation and calculating probabilities that the present would have appeared randomly from events in the past. And the best example I can give is to sit down with four friends, shuffle a deck of 52 cards, and deal them out and keep an exact record of the order in which the cards were dealt. We can then look back and say ‘my goodness, how improbable this is. We can play cards for the rest of our lives and we would never ever deal the cards out in this exact same fashion.’ You know what; that’s absolutely correct. Nonetheless, you dealt them out and nonetheless you got the hand that you did.
Miller is arguing that even the most mundane of events—events we know are truly random—can be made to seem impossible in the absence of an intelligent agent to order that event if we look at the probability of that event taking place after-the-fact. The problem with this analysis is that it attacks a straw man. As Barry Arrington has written in response to Miller:
Miller blatantly misrepresents ID theory, because…no ID proponent says that mere improbability denotes design. Suppose, however, your friend appeared to shuffle the cards thoroughly and dealt out the following sequence: all hearts in order from 2 to Ace; all spades in order from 2 to Ace; all diamonds in order from 2 to Ace; and then all clubs in order from 2 to Ace. As a matter of strict mathematical probability analysis, this particular sequence of 52 cards has the exact same probability as any other sequence of 52 cards. But of course you would never attribute that sequence to chance. You would naturally conclude that your friend has performed a card trick where the cards only appeared to be randomized when they were shuffled. In other words, you would make a perfectly reasonable design inference. What is the difference between Miller’s example and my example? In Miller’s example the sequence of cards was only highly improbable. In my example the sequence of cards is not only highly improbable, but also it conforms to a specification. ID proponents do not argue that mere improbability denotes design. They argue that design is the best explanation where there is a highly improbable event AND that event conforms to an independently designated specification.[1]
See also Signature in the Cell, Part 1: Information
[1]Barry Arrington, “Ken Miller’s Strawman No Threat to ID”; available from http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ken-millers-strawman-no-threat-to-id/; Internet; accessed 14 December 2011.
February 6, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Carneades keel hauls this begged question in response to Chrysippus. I call his argument Carneade’s argument.All teleological arguments beg the question to desing. Lamberth’s teleonomic and Hume’s dysteological arguments keel haul all. Without intent, no design is possible. Other analogies come forth.
Google Lamberth’s naturalistic arguments for God to fathom why He means no more than unicorns and square circles. As a personal explanaton, despite Craign and Swnburne, He is no more useful than some spirit of full animism: theism is reduced animism to one spirit and thus, just as superstitous!
http;//skepticicality.blogspot.com
LikeLike
February 6, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Sorry for the typos.
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 6:41 am
Lord Griggs, while Jason may understand all that jargon you’ve just written, do you fancy reducing it towards the layman reader – While I have a degree in engineering and a diploma in Surveying, your comment went way over my head and so I can’t really comment on it. Also, I tend to read this in my breaks in work and so cannot spend time trying to chase around your arguments online. An easier method would be to explain briefly the arguments, and then link for further information.
Thanks.
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 9:28 am
Scottspeig, thanks for getting me to do that! I find it troublesome to read somethng that breaks into symbolic logic as that is for me no more than higher math that is beyond me. So, I can share your frustration and will try to do better.
I want us all not to talk past each other. I’ve amassed much on the internet in the seven years of using it. Google Lamberth’s naturalistic arguments to see them under various nicknames. I combine and permute them. I didn’t have spell check when I started and didn’t proof read as well as I should have anyway.
Cortical deficits account for some of the language problems people noted.
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 9:33 am
scott please don’t set the bar too high for our atheist friends. They do not believe in Intelligent Design so their arguments naturally follow the unintelligent design of words without purpose or truth. They just hit and run on with their copy and paste arguments and call names so they can feel intellectually superior. I’ve read their arguments, or lack thereof, and have witnessed you and many other IDers reaching out and trying to reason with them. Yet, like there dying day, their arguments only cease to exist. There have been logical discussion from the ID supporters side but the atheists only can hit and run. It seems they are filled with a special hatred against God. However, there is still a God in heaven who loves you.
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 4:02 pm
Christians use code words like “design” when they really mean “magically created out of nothing”.
They are not fooling anyone. No matter what they call magic, it’s still magic and it’s still childish.
Magical Intelligent Design Creationism: If something looks too complex to have evolved, the Magic Man did it.
I copied and pasted this a long time ago. It was written by someone named Mike Toreno:
ID creationism is misrepresented by its adherents, not its critics.
The various statements of what ID creationism is are simply obfuscations of the following argument:
I don’t understand the reason for X phenomenon. Therefore X phenomenon originated by magic.
For example, take the contention that the bacterial flagellum could not have originated through a step by step process. That’s an obfuscation of the true argument, which is “I don’t understand how the bacterial flagellum could have originated through a step by step process.”
The response, of course, is:
Well, maybe you not understanding something doesn’t mean it can’t be understood. There are other reasons why you might not understand something. Maybe you’re just stupid.
Dembski gave some talk in Oklahoma, and he got totally pwned. He talked about the bacterial flagellum, and some guy in the audience, during the question and answer session, said, I can explain how the bacterial flagellum could have originated through a step by step process, and did it. Of course, then Dembski wanted more steps. No matter how many steps you present, the ID creationist wants more. This is a slight variation of the ID creationist argument, and reads as follows:
I won’t admit that X phenomenon could have originated through natural means. Therefore, X phenomenon must have originated by magic.
And the answer, of course, is: Well, maybe you’re just a liar.
The idea that proponents of ID creationism have been discriminated against is based on a misconception – namely, that every idea is of equal merit. ID creationists aren’t able to gain acceptance for their ideas not because of philosophical resistance, discrimination, or conspiracy, but because their ideas are stupid. I mean, when a real scientist explains phenomena that an ID creationist says is unexplainable, is the ID creationist still entitled to a respectful hearing for his claim?
ID creationism adherents believe in ID creationism because they haven’t considered, or don’t want to consider, the possibility that they’re just retarded. Well, it’s time for them to consider it.
— Mike Toreno
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 4:15 pm
From a previous comment: “It seems they are filled with a special hatred against God. However, there is still a God in heaven who loves you.”
Wow.
You don’t understand the definition of the word atheist.
Atheist: not a theist.
Now do you understand?
Why do you think a person can hate something that he or she is certain is just a fantasy for gullible idiots? How is it possible to hate something that doesn’t exist?
There’s a heaven? Really? Got any evidence for your childish fantasy which by the way makes terrorism possible?
Of course you don’t have any evidence for your magical paradise. It’s nothing more than the wishful thinking of cowards.
Your supernatural magic, which you dishonestly call intelligent design as if that makes it less childish, has not one shred of evidence. If you want normal people to take your magic fantasy seriously, you got to do better than “I don’t understand therefore magical design”.
You also wrote “They just hit and run”
How much precious time do you think should be wasted on people like you who are so afraid of reality they are willing to throw out all of science so they can have their magical heaven for dead people? Trying to reason with Christians is like trying to reason with terrorists.
Show an ability to understand and atheists won’t hit and run so much. They would love to knock some sense into a Christian but they know that the Christian disease is almost always incurable.
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Then rebut our arguments! First show that the argument to design does not beg any questions and then show that teleology rules in the Cosmos without begging the question of intent.
Otherwise, you are engaging in pushing the superstition of reduced animism, one spirit behind all Nature rather than the many of full animism, but still the same superstitious adherence to occult causes.
The Azande know of germ theory but still insist on the germ spirit as that primary cause. God performs no function any better than gremlins or demons and is no more than a square circle!
Human Aloe, fellow great ape, amen and indeed!
Atone of my Hub pages blogs, a lady keeps asking how do I naturalistically that the sun will shine tomorrow? Instead of answering my points, she insists on positing Him as that necessary being and primary cause for the sun to do so when supernaturalism is a parasite on naturalism as to what happens in the Cosmos.
Inanity is not profundity!
Try these two blogs:
http://carneades-georgia
http://hubpages.com/hub/Fr.Meslier-Today
LikeLike
February 7, 2012 at 5:34 pm
i see I took down the wrong http addreses. The first one does show my ickname there as owner.
LikeLike
February 9, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Human Ape
Why should I even give you half an effort when your name reveals your flawed logic? A human is not an ape and an ape is not a human. Do I need to reference the dictionary? And you tell me I do not understand the word atheist… 🙂 Actually it isn’t the word that I am writing against but the very idea and those that have bought into the atheist religion. Dictionary.com does not define atheist as “not a theist”, it says, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Now, there may be other dictionary’s that define it differently; so either reference the dictionary or admit you are wrong.
Perfectly well, I understand you do not know the definition of Human, Ape, or Atheist. 🙂 (I’m being light hearted.)
So are you saying that EVERY atheist believer is EXACTLY like you in their belief? You can only deny or disbelieve but you can’t be certain. If you feel certain then why don’t you just be content with knowing that you alone are the only atheist that defies the definition. Why do you even debate the issue? In your constructs of faith it is all meaningless anyway.
I’m as certain in my faith in heaven as you claim to be that there is not. The difference is I’ve had a personal experience that solidifies it in my mind. You can’t experience your faith because you believe in nothing.
On to your terrorism comment. Do I understand you correctly, belief in heaven causes terrorism? So if everyone were atheists like you then their wouldn’t be any terrorism? Is that the conclusion you are trying to help me arrive at? History has already proven you to be wrong, Communist China – an atheist regime- has killed untold millions and some of those millions were killed for their faith. Again, your argument is blown away by a blast from a gnats wing and has folded like a badly stacked house of cards. (It amazes me that for all your high talk you still can’t make a logical argument.)
Magical is probably not the best word to use since it means slight of hand and doesn’t match any of the other definitions of magic. You could accuse a make believe land but not magical. People who believe in Heaven are cowards, again, history would illustrate different. George Washington, don’t think he was a coward. Jesus Christ himself, no coward either. The early christians were burned at the stake and beheaded… such cowardly acts huh? How about Abraham Lincoln? Sir. Isaac Newton… yeah both were intellectually challenged because they were cowardly – both opposed the opinions of the majority of their day. How about the nurses and doctors that treated their enemy’s wounds and treated? Or some of the christians that risked all for the sake of saving Jews? I think the point is made… you paint with a broad brush, so why should I trust your science of cosmology or naturalism or anything else you write?
LikeLike
February 9, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Griggs
LOL… what argument. You’ve trolled these comments on several of Jason’s articles without hardly a shred of responses to their patient and logical discourse. You continue to name drop and hit and run. And please, please stop posting links if you can’t get them right. Engage in the discussion without all of the other nonsensical words.
Square Circle depends on your perspective a square could contain a circle and your small perspective may only allow you to see the circle but you can’t see the square.
LikeLike
February 11, 2012 at 4:56 am
Humans are apes.
LikeLike
February 16, 2012 at 9:30 am
You claim that taking an existing example and working backwards is a straw man then in your rebuttal you step up with your own existing condition strawman. No offence to God, mind you, but your irrational flailing is getting in the way of progress and your infantile demands for God’s undivided attention are wearing thin. Don’t you make God pull this world over.
LikeLike
February 16, 2012 at 10:34 am
ID,fails, because science finds no divine input and designs -those pareidolia for mechanism and patterns. Google the teleonomic argument and also the argument from pareidolia or just lamberth’s naturalistic arguments about God to fathom why God explains nothing and means no more than a square circle, or demons and gremlins as that primary cause!
Allah and Yahweh suffer from low self-esteem so they as narcissist demand continuous praising! We owe putative God nothing,but instead per Fr. Meslier’s [Google:] the problem of Heaven, He faces a one-way street!
I do recommend this site at my blogs.
LikeLike
February 16, 2012 at 10:36 am
Arthur, geat ape;,perhaps, the third chimp. Please support the Great Ape Project!
LikeLike
February 17, 2012 at 9:59 am
Human life is not specified. That is, it’s very poorly designed. There are countless design flaws (eg, breathing and eating combined) that strongly refute any intelligent design. If humans were intelligentlyvdesigned, they’d be very different.
LikeLike
February 17, 2012 at 3:31 pm
Arthur, yes, that fits Hume’s dysteological argument. Then there is his from analogy.
LikeLike
February 19, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Dysteleological argument is a poor design because it assumes what was designed has never changed and that our knowledge can determine the perfect way something should be designed. We can’t even design a car perfectly how can we know how to design the perfect human? Name the scientist that has created life from non living matter. Oh wait… that would be intelligent design because it take intelligence to create life. After all the attempts at creating life from non living material we still do not have a living complex organism, or did i miss the announcement?
Abiogenesis theorize that the basic building blocks to life were present billions of years ago but not those basic building blocks can’t exist because life would gobble it up. The problem with that in my mind, is that the supposed basic building blocks are so damaging to life that it would kill it before it ever began.
The watchmaker argument still follows the natural conclusion of a design/designer.
LikeLike
February 19, 2012 at 6:18 pm
css, to the contrary as the dysteleological notes that evolution itself accounts for the imperfections of living things as adaptation makes only for the near fittest.
Scientists can suggest that perfect human,but we would find her homely as to build as one picture shows. We know about how octopedes’ eyes don’t have a blind spot as ours do, and how the appendix, that vestige, can make for pain.
Science gainsays what you state in that it is at the edge of knowledge about abiogenesis and as with other matters, not an argument from ignorance, but instead from induction, that science will find the necessary knowledge whilst God as the only cause or just the Primary Cause is just in the first case the god of the scientific gaps and in the second, the god of the metaphysical gap.
No, to that gobbling back then, as the conditions were vastly different!
All teleological arguments- to design,from reason, probability and fine-tuning beg the question of divine intent per Carneades’s argument, and Lamberth’s teleonomic/atelic notes science finds no divine intent behind Nature so that He can have no intent as Grand Miracle Monger, Creator and so forth in the Cosmos and thus cannot exist, and He has contradictory,incoherent attributes that again He cannot exist.
Google lamberth’s naturalistic arguments about God for further details.
Clinton Richard Dawkins’s ” Climbing Mount Impossible” belies the design argument. No divine intent happened for the meteorite causing the demise of the dinosaurs that led to primates evolving to us and all the necessary mutations – life came about by randomness as to the needs of the organisms, applied by natural selection, the non-planning, anti-chance agency of Nature. And that randomness depended itself on necessity in the end as Leucippus would have noted.
As an atheologian, I find that theology is the subject without a subject!
Fr. Griggs http://fathergriggs.wordpress.com
And again, rebut my arguments! They are detailed. They answer the hit and run complaint.
LikeLike
February 19, 2012 at 6:22 pm
http://skepticicality.blogspot.com
http://carneades-georgia. hubpages.com
LikeLike
February 19, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Google http://carneades-georgia.hubpages.com directly as I just now did.
http://buy-bull.posterous.com hard-hitting as name suggests
From now on, lamberth’s naturalistic arguments about God -will do as to the blogs.
LikeLike
September 29, 2012 at 3:23 pm
“Intelligent Design (the hypothesis…)”
Note: HYPOTHESIS. Not theory. As for Kenneth Miller’s deck of cards response, this is really the only way can get things through to you intelligent design numbskills because you think it’s “random” and therefore is “impossible without an intelligent designer” when the exact OPPOSITE is true. Also, I am not an Atheist and neither does intelligent design prove a deity’s existence. Aliens could have done it. Time travelers could have done it. Shove intelligent design down my throat and I’ll convert to Atheism then. Who else could have mercilessly wiped out the dinosaurs? Or created things so poorly that we would have things that we DO NOT NEED? Think logically you intelligent design dumb-dumbs!
LikeLike
November 3, 2012 at 10:37 am
Dulle,
Your argument on theistic evolutionism is essentially gibberish. You state:
“Theistic evolutionists find themselves estranged from Christians who see evolution as incompatible with a Biblical view of creation, and shunned by the scientific community who dismisses theistic evolution as religion in the disguise of science. Scientists are quick to point out what many theistic evolutionists do not seem to grasp on their own: TE is not evolution.”
First off, the majority of theistic evolutionists do oppose intelligent design. Second off, theistic evolutionists understand that the God part of theistic evolutionism is NOT science. But it is evolutionism and theistic evolutionists do defend (and strongly defend) the theory of evolution (Kenneth Miller for example).
Your statement:
“Darwinian evolutionists (naturalistic evolutionists) do not consider the form of evolution postulated by theistic evolutionists to be genuine evolution, or even scientific for that matter because scientific evolution (i.e. naturalistic evolution) necessarily excludes the idea of God.”
is also bunk! As a theistic evolutionist, I do believe in a creator, yes, but I also believe in natural selection! How is this possible? Yah created the naturalistic processes! You are describing evolutionary creationism (which is unbiblical and unscientific).
I really have no idea whether you are a young earth creationist or not but either way, if you reject evolution, then you are scientifically backwards!
LikeLike
November 16, 2012 at 11:26 am
newenglandsun,
My statement you quoted had nothing to do with ID (nor with this post since it doesn’t even appear on this post). You brought ID into the conversation.
Secondly, there is nothing incompatible between ID and theistic evolution. Indeed, an older generation of theistic evolutionists would have embraced ID. It is only more recent, more vocal theistic evolutionists (and I am speaking of academics as opposed to the common TE sitting on a pew) who see the two as in opposition. And for good reason: modern TE have no place for God or teleology in their system. God’s role is superfluous. They think material processes are fully adequate to account for the history of life. At best some reserve for God the role of front-loading the whole system, but after that it’s hands-off. Their version of TE is virtually indistinguishable from the fully materialistic account offered by Darwinists.
My second quote had nothing to do with your response to it. Who said that TEs don’t believe in a Creator? The point of my statement is that any person who says “the evolution of X was caused by God” will be rejected by Darwinists because on their view, evolution is a fully naturalistic process – no God needed. Even if someone only subscribes to the “front-loading” version of TE known as “fully gifted creationism,” they are still subscribing to a different theory than Darwinists because Darwinists require that even the initial conditions be explained in terms of fully naturalistic processes. The bottom line is that if one is adding God to the equation at all, they are offering a different theory than Darwin’s, and they will not be accepted as equals in the scientific community.
None of this is to say that evolutionary beliefs must be atheistic. Far from it. The co-discoverer of evolutionary theory – Wallace – was a theistic evolutionist. But Darwin’s atheistic version has come to be the reigning paradigm and scientific orthodoxy against which all other views are measured.
Jason
LikeLike
August 27, 2013 at 1:21 am
Wow. What a bunch of banter. Let’s see if you can all agree on something…anything. Let’s try: 2 apples + 3 apples =
LikeLike