What do you think of the pericope of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16? Do you think it is a parable or a historical event? Why?
March 28, 2012
Lazarus and the rich man: parable or not?
Posted by Theosophical Ruminator under Hermeneutics, Theology[29] Comments
Thinking to Believe 
March 28, 2012 at 8:58 am
I have heard that it is not a parable because usually on parables the names are not mentioned.
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March 28, 2012 at 5:35 pm
The rich man is obviously in hell, and he has family members still on the earth. How can this be reconciled with Revelation when judgment does not come until the end?
The name Lazarus means “whom God helps”, so He may have used the name to reinforce the notion of God’s protection.
What do you think Jason?
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March 29, 2012 at 5:16 pm
There is a hell and it would be a frightening, horrible place to go. However, hell is not eternal. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated as “eternal” mean age long or a time of indefinite duration. I have personally studied this issue extensively. The scholarship on the side of Ultimate Restoration is overwhelming. Study it for yourself, Jason, you are plenty smart enough to understand the arguments. They are not nearly as complicated as most of the issues you have touched on this site.
Is it not true that you have personally studied a couple of apologetic questions and found that the consensus opinion can be wrong? If you give this question about eternal damnation an honest and thorough study, you will be as totally convinced as I am. As I said, the scholarship is overwhelming. It is beyond one-sided, it is conclusive.
Hell is for purification. There are those who will leave this world unrepentant. God will not give up on them. The Bible says all this very, very clearly. For example:
“..we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” 1 Timothy 4:12
Note the above says God is the Savior of ALL men. Especially believers, but clearly, not just believers. That’s right, Griggs. You too. One day you will, by your own free will, accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Why? Because you will one day realize who He really is. You will want to follow Him and you will.
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March 29, 2012 at 7:39 pm
I was actually just thinking this very thing the other day. This should be a good discussion.
It appears to be a historical event. These are my reasons for thinking so…
1.) Jesus said, “There was a rich man…” Each time Jesus has used this phrase throughout the gospels he was talking about actual people who had lived, or are living.
2.) The detailed emotions are liking telling an actual event. Jesus said there was a woman with a issue of blood and then began to disclose the emotional and physical realities of what took place next.
3.) The two destinations are very Jewish, the grave. The rich man was at torment because he was not a keeper of the law of Moses. Lazarus most likely rested in the bosom of Abraham, not heaven, but in a place of rest in the promise that God made to Abraham, “I will bless who blesses you and curse who curses you.” God blessed Lazarus in the faith of Abraham but cursed the rich man because he did not trust in God or keep His Word.
This does not conflict with Revelation.
This is just my thoughts over the last few days but I haven’t studied it in depth.
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March 30, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Hello again, css! Did you change your email address? I tried to contact you the other day, but I got a notification your email address no longer exists.
With respect to the question at hand, the argument over whether or not this account is a parable often stems from the argument over the existence of Hell. It appears rather obvious that angle is a red herring because parables never appeal to nonexistent or mythological things. Mustard seed, treasure in a field, a net, a sower, etc., are actual things/persons. If the account of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, the fact that the underlying message may emphasize something other than Hell cannot impeach the fact that such a place exists; and if the account is historical, then the objection obviously collapses.
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March 30, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Randy
Just curious. What scripture are you referencing that says hell is not eternal? The word eternal is referenced in Matthew 25:46 for both eternal punishment and eternal life. According to the Strong’s Concordance the Greek word is αἰώνιος (aionios) and means – perpetual.
Scripture does not teach that hell purifies. Please demonstrate with scripture not with claims of scholarship.
Thanks.
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March 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm
Blessing brother! Sorry… I will notify you now… I though I had sent out a notification but apparently I missed several! Opps….
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March 30, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Css,
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word עולם (Strongs 5769) is translated in the New American Standard as “eternal” at Ecclesiastes 12:5 “For man goes to his eternal home…” The same Hebrew word is translated as an “ever pregnant” womb at Jeremiah 20:17. If you have a Hebrew –English Lexicon, look up 5769 and you will see it defined as “long duration” and translated in the NAS as “and he shall be your servant forever” (Deut 15:17) and “the everlasting hills “ (Gen. 49:26), etc.
Now, we know of course, that we do have an eternal home. So, 5769 can mean “eternal” in the same sense as it is used in English. But, we also know that wombs are not eternally pregnant and we know that hills last a long time, but they do not last for all eternity. The Hebrew word 5769 means “indefinite duration.” And, incidentally, even those scholars who believe in never ending punishment concede this point.
In the New Testament, The Greek word αιων (Strongs 165) is often translated as eternal, such as “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God…” However the same Greek word is also translated as “an age” as in Mat.13:39 “..and the harvest is the end of the age”
The above are only brief examples. My favorite book on this subject is the classic “Christ Triumphant” by Thomas Allin. His scholarship is beyond reproach. He gives numerous ancient sources which clearly show that the ancient fathers believed in Universal Reconciliation. Just one quote from his book:
“Indeed, beside Origen, Gregory of Nyssa also, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil, Ambrose himself, and Jerome, taught everywhere the universal restitution of things, asserting simultaneously with it an end of eternal punishment.”
If you want to look into this further via the web, I suggest a site produced by Auburn University:http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
One quote from that site:
“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known.”
“The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge”
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
I will end this by simply quoting Scripture: “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22)
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March 30, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Randy
Certainly it seems that you have plenty of words and circumstantial evidence but you’ve not addressed aionios(G166) the word that is specifically mentioned by Jesus concerning punishment and it means, literally, perpetual. It does not mean age. To build an entire doctrine on a loose definition of “age” the the doctrine is on shaky ground. As you’ve demonstrated to Jason, just because someone is in the majority doesn’t mean it is right, nor just because something is in the minority does it become wrong. However, any kind of slight of hand on the words used by Jesus concerning an actual place is not a good practice to follow.
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March 31, 2012 at 3:10 am
css,
It is mildly disconcerting to me when a Christian accuses me of “slight of hand”? What are you talking about? I gave a brief overview of the scholarship involved. Your comment was made an hour and 25 minutes after my post. I have spent thousands of hours and 30 years on this subject. Many great ancient and modern scholars have spent a lifetime. It is not a subject that lends itself to an hour and 25 minute analysis. If you are interested in it, I suggest you do some personal research. You will find that I am simply agreeing with some of the greatest Christian minds that ever lived, including, it seems almost certain – Paul.
Your entire point of view – endless, never ending torment of the unregenerate depends upon a premise that is nowhere found in the Bible – that once a person leaves this earth, he has left his last chance to obtain salvation. That premise, although it is preached from many pulpits, is not found in the Bible.
Strongs 165 and 166 are not different words. They are different forms of the same word.
Psalm 115:21 “My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord;
And all flesh will bless His Holy name forever and ever.”
How could Scripture be more clear? “All flesh” “forever and ever”
1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.”
The “all” who die in Adam includes every man woman and child who ever lived, does it not? In the exact same sentence Paul tells us that same group of “all” will be made alive in Christ.
And, again, my favorite: 1 Timothy 4:10 “…we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”
Did Paul not say in the above that God is the “Savior of all men”? Of course he did. If you want other passages to demand that the vast majority of mankind will be eternally tormented, then you have to find a way to explain the above passages. They simply cannot be ignored. And, there are hundreds of other verses and passages you will have to ignore.
And, you can cite a few passages that seem to make your point of view. The Bible, therefore, on a cursory level, seems to contradict itself. To understand how to reconcile passages and verses that seem to contradict each other, one must go back and study the Hebrew and Greek words.
This subject, however, in the broader sense, is not only about the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. At its core it is about whether or not Jesus Christ was triumphant. That is why Thomas Allin named his book “Christ Triumphant.” Scripture tells us clearly that Christ came to save the world. Did Jesus succeed or not? Yes, He did.
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March 31, 2012 at 3:21 am
“For it is written,
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me.
And every tongue shall give praise to God.” Romans 14:11
Those who insist on the unregenerate spending eternity in torment have to take the above rather simple statement and claim that most who are bowing to Christ will be doing it only because they have been defeated – as if God were an earthly king who conquered them in a war and now they are bowing to a sword over their heads.
Then why would they be praising God?
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March 31, 2012 at 6:01 am
css,
If you want to read a brief study of the Greek words involved, read this link.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/vincent.html
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March 31, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Randy
Slight of hand was not an outright accusation more or less, it was showing that you’ve not addressed the actual word that was used by Jesus to speak of two very real places. I realize that G165 is close to the same word but it isn’t the same word. Technically speaking.
It didn’t take an hour and 30 minutes to see that you may be missing some details. You continue pointing to scholarship and less to scripture. Not one place does the bible ever say hell is a place of purification, yet, you’ve continued to state such. Slight of hand is a fair statement when someone asserts an opinion without backing it up.
You said,
(Rev 20:10 [ESV2011])
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev 20:14 [ESV2011])
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 [ESV2011])
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(emphasis mine)
This describes a place that is perpetual where death and the grave will be cast into it and anyone who is not found in the book of life. The book of life is a record of the citizenship of heaven.
With all due respect toward your 30 years of study, you can’t get around what John said. To make such a bold proclamation of ” endless, never ending torment of the unregenerate depends upon a premise that is nowhere found in the Bible” is not true. John wrote clearly enough.
In looking at the scriptures you referenced I need to know where Psalm 115:21 is located because Psalm 115 only has 18 verses.
I am assuming you mean (Ps 145:21 [NET])
My mouth will praise the LORD. Let all who live praise his holy name forever!
(Ps 145:21 [KJV])
My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
(Ps 145:21 [ESV2011])
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, and let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever.
All three of these very literal translations have “let all flesh”. It didn’t say all flesh would praise forever and ever besides the simple fact that flesh will not be in heaven. We will be glorified bodies. But I digress.
You said (a) concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22:
Yes, it certainly does because all who are born are born under Adam. Not everyone is born under Christ that is why we must be born again. 🙂
(b)
You are making a dramatic leap. Read the next verse.
(1Cor 15:23 [ESV2011])
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Not all of Adam’s seed will be “in Christ”. Those who belong to Christ is differentiated from those who do not. Basically “in Christ” if you are not in Christ you will not be made alive you must belong to him!
Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10 you said:
God’s title of Savior extends out even though some are not saved by him. for instance he is King of kings even though other kings may claim the title! Savior of all people is pretty clearly put that God is our Savior and everyone should look to him. Why would Paul say, “especially those who believe”? It seems to me that you are saying Paul meant God is going to save all men and especially those who believe. This doesn’t make sense in the least, please explain.
I’ve taken your scripture references and have studied them and found nothing that merits your claim that hell is a place for purification, a temporal punishment. I’ve not ignored anything but let the scriptures speak. As for studying Greek and Hebrew words we have ample translations that do a pretty good job of it. Each time they’ve translated G166 it was eternal. Enough said.
(2Thess 1:8 [ESV2011])
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
(2Thess 1:9 [ESV2011])
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
(2Thess 1:10 [ESV2011])
when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Oh, Christ is Triumphant and the price he paid for those who believe was astonishing. There is not any other way into heaven then the door and Jesus is that door. There is not a back door and at the core of your argument you are trying to say there is a back door in and it is through hell. It is the blood of Jesus that makes us heaven worthy or not, in Adam all will die but those who have been born again are now In the Triumphant Christ! Praise God!
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March 31, 2012 at 8:04 pm
Randy
To your #11 comment.
(Rom 14:10 [ESV2011])
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
(Rom 14:11 [ESV2011])
for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
(Rom 14:12 [ESV2011])
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Let’s look at the context… where would they be at when they bow? The Judgement Seat of Christ. What will happen when each person appears before the Seat? They will bow and confess or give praise! Even a sinner will confess of God’s greatness on that day! Each one of us will give account.
What will happen next? For those who are not In Christ he will say,
(Matt 25:41 [ESV2011])
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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April 1, 2012 at 5:42 am
Css,
The point of my post was not about the purpose of Hell. Whether or not Hell is for purification or punishment, is just simply not my point. Furthermore, your digressions about the judgment seat of Christ have nothing to do with my point. We agree, there will be a judgment.
My point is very narrow – that the word “eternal” as it is used in the English language, does not mean the same as the Greek noun aion (165) or its adjective aionios (166). I provided a good link that explains this by a scholar, here it is again: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/vincent.html Here is another one: http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html
However, It seems you aren’t interested in my point, because you said:
” As for studying Greek and Hebrew words we have ample translations that do a pretty good job of it. Each time they’ve translated G166 it was eternal. Enough said.”
Ok, enough said. My point is that to understand all this, we need to look at what the scholars say about the Greek words and your point is that we don’t need to look deeper than the translations.
I do not intend to argue this with you. Study it for yourself and if you want, make your own post.
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April 1, 2012 at 6:31 am
If anyone is reading this, I urge you to read the two links I provided in post 15 above. Also, consider the verses I provided, 1st Corinthians 15:22; 1st Timothy 4:10; and Psalm145:21, since if they are taken at face value, seem to teach that Christ will save all mankind. This is a very, very important point isn’t it?
Decide for yourself whether or not the following Scripture (and hundreds more) can simply be taken at face value:
John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself”
Romans 5:18 “So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
Romans 11:32 “For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
1 John 2:2 “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
Randy
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April 1, 2012 at 7:10 am
Randy
You said in Comment #3
It seems you’re trying to open a back door into heaven. The Judgement Seat has everything to do with your point because it is there that eternal destruction is announced. G166 is used in Matt 25:41, 2 Thess 1:9, and G165 is used in Revelation 20:10. This all takes place at the Judgement Seat. I understand you believe in judgement but you say it is only a temporal thing.
When I spoke about the ample translations you should know that I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar, just because I can look up words doesn’t make me anything close to a scholar on the subject of ancient language. I trust the translators and even G166 has one simple meaning, perpetual. They didn’t have to do a ton of linguistic analysis to see that G166 means eternal. What else was mistranslated? Maybe they got it all wrong about heaven as well?
There isn’t much more to understand when the scripture is crystal clear on the matter of an eternal lake of fire. We both know there is such a place and in describing that place it is described as perpetual.
Thanks for the discussion wasn’t trying to argue the enough said comment was to clearly draw the lines what the translators translated. When I have time I may read the links. Thank you.
Chad
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April 1, 2012 at 8:01 am
Randy
I also meant to add when you point to scholars you are suggesting there are scholars that are more scholarly than the scholars that were experts in ancient language. In the three translations I posed there are many scholars involved, what reason would I have to say to them they are unreliable and therefore I need to turn to two web addresses?
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April 1, 2012 at 9:41 am
Also, again I failed to add… 🙂
Taking scripture at face value should not suggest taking a verse out of context. It is like taking one sentence out of a paragraph and building on that one sentence something that the paragraph doesn’t support. Anyone can grab one sentence from the Word of God and try to demonstrate something the scripture doesn’t teach. Context is the king of biblical learning.
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April 1, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Christian Universalism is sometimes called Ultimate Restoration, Ultimate Reconciliation, The Larger Hope, and several other names. It should not be confused with “Universalism” which is a word that now carries meaning and baggage that a Christian Universalist would not carry. (Although a hundred and fifty years ago, the term Universalist meant what we now call Christian Universalism). There is very large group of Christian Universalists alive today and we have many extremely competent scholars in our group.
Christian Universalism was the predominant view in the first 500 years of the Church. The more predominant view today, that of “eternal torment” for most of mankind, was popularized by Augustine and his followers in about 400 AD. Augustine is known for his persecution of those he deemed heretics. He had them subjected to hideous torture including being burned at the stake with green wood so the torture would last longer. Augustine claimed his torturing was done in “love” since the tortures might induce the heretic to repent before death. There is a lot in the history of the Church that no Christian should be proud of: the inquisition of heretics, the crusades, various Papal misdeeds.
There is very ample reason to believe that God, through the death of our Jesus Christ, indeed will save us all. Look over the links I provided and you may agree. Again, those 3 links are:
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/vincent.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html
The doctrine of eternal torment depends, quite simply, on inadequate translations. The inadequacy of those translations have been powerfully demonstrated by numerous Hebrew / Greek scholars. I pointed out a few verses that teach Christian Universalism. Those verses clearly, on their face, provide powerful witness to the doctrine of Christian Universalism. We Christians, like the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) are told to investigate and read the Scriptures for ourselves. That is all I am saying. Investigate and read for yourself.
And I will add, does Christian Universalism not make far more sense than eternal torment? How can one read the entire Bible and believe that our Loving Father would send most of His children to an eternal blast furnace? No earthly father I have ever known would do that.
Jason asked whether we think the passage about the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable or whether it depicts an historical event. Well, Martin Luther, John Lightfoot, and E.W.Lightfoot each considered it a parable. I think it reads like a parable. Probably a satirical parable about the Sadducees. The Sadducees did not believe in life after death. That is why they were sad, you see.
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April 4, 2012 at 12:32 am
I’ve always thought of the pericope as a parable. Although I admit that is it not announced as a parable as many of the other, obvious parables are announced, but I believe it still.
One reason is “Abraham’s bosom”. While paradise/heaven is a real place, and may symbolically be called Abraham’s bosom as a idiom, to think or say that all who die just and true before God go to Abraham and not to God, and that Abraham speaks to those in hell as something literal makes no sense to me. Yes, Abraham is alive (for God is the God of the living), but the main point in the pericope is to show the Jews and Pharisees that if they truly believed the words of Moses, then they would automatically accept the testimony of Christ, especially since He would, in time, be raised from the dead.
Apart from that, the other main point or reason for the pericope seems to be stated in verses 14-15,
14. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Since the Lord knew them to be covetous and that they were willing to deride Him for His previous statements, and because, as He said of them, that they justify themselves, etc. Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man to make a point, comparing the Pharisees to the rich man who ends up in Hell. I don’t think anything about it has to be understood literally as in it really happened. I think the point is that anyone who, like the Pharisees, does what verses 14-15 says, is in danger of Hell-fire come their death, and that those they deride (like Jesus) will, like Lazarus, have a place waiting for them in paradise/heaven, i.e. Abraham’s bosom.
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April 4, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Hi, Aaron. Persons on either side of this issue can agree with most of what you write. The only evidence you offer for your assertion this is a parable is that it “makes no sense” to you (2nd paragraph) and that you “don’t think…it has to be understood literally…” (5th paragraph).
Against this you acknowledge this account is not usually the way parables are given. Moreover, you did not engage my observation that every parable given by Christ involved existing things. The Lord never employed non-existent or mythical beings/places in His parables. In addition, the notion “Abraham’s Bosom is a literal place predates Christianity (see link). It appears then that even if we acknowledge it is a parable, we are not justified in concluding that there are not literal places called Abraham’s Bosom and Hell.
The fact you may not understand how communication takes place in that realm cannot count against its literalness. Disembodied intellects self-evidently appear to communicate in non-material ways, so how does your objection amount to something decisive?
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April 4, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Hi, Scalia
Just to be clear, I wasn’t engaging you at all (no offense). I was merely answering Jason’s question with some initial thoughts. Nor was I trying to be overly dogmatic. On this particular issue, to take a hard line, to me, doesn’t seem worth it, since, it’s really more of an academic issue that doesn’t require one to believe either direction in order to be and/or stay saved.
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May 9, 2012 at 6:26 am
In Abe’s bosom was to be reclined at table in the honored seat, lying in the bosom of your host: Joh_13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. The angels carried Lazarus to dine with Abe. This story is one of several viewpoints in the scriptures about the afterlife.
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August 1, 2012 at 2:22 pm
At first this seems like the most difficult parable to understand. To say this is literal is absurd. Lazarus goes to “Abraham’s Bosom” not Because he is good or faithful but just because he is sick and sore. The Rich Man does not go to “hades” because he is evil, just because he is rich. If one were in a burning fire, he would want a firehose on him, not just a drop on his tongue. If you would like a clear understanding of this scripture, email bhille777@gmail.com for a scripture by scripture uncoding of the parable. It is exciting to see it unfold!
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August 1, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Bill, why not just post it here or provide a link?
The rich guy was not in “Hell” but rather in “Hades”. The most influential text on the NT writers was the Pentateuch, but after that, it was the Enoch scrolls. In this passage we have reference to an afterlife, which was not present in the Jewish scriptures, but emerged from the Hellenized Jews during their time in Alexandria, Egypt.
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February 7, 2013 at 1:44 pm
Wow, it has been a long time since posts. Is it still open? The reason i would not post it here is because it is long and there are so many scriptures that unfold into it. And I guess I am link-illiterate.
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March 17, 2015 at 8:57 pm
Wow, even after one year you are still a top candidate for the title of “Retardate of the Year”. Congratulations.
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