It is often said that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE). This does seem to be the straightforward meaning of Genesis 3:22a: “Then the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.’” (ESV) There are a couple of problems I see with this interpretation, however:
- The text does not say Adam and Eve only gained knowledge of evil after the Fall, but knowledge of “good and evil.” If we understand “knowledge” in a cognitive sense, this would mean God originally created human beings as amoral beings, having no knowledge of moral concepts or moral categories. If we were created as amoral beings, then our moral intuitions and our capacity for moral reasoning are not part of the imago Dei (image of God) in which we were created, but rather a consequence of the Fall. That’s a tough pill to swallow for two reasons: (1) Moral reasoning is one of the unique characteristics of God that among God’s creatures, humans alone exhibit. Since humans alone were created in the imago Dei, it stands to reason that moral reasoning was part of that original imago Dei; (2) How is it possible for an act of disobedience to produce in us the knowledge of good? Evil, yes, but good?
- If Adam and Eve could not think in moral categories before the Fall — i.e. they did not have the cognitive awareness of what good was, what evil was, and the difference between the two — then how could they have understood God’s command not to eat of the TKGE? Minimally they would need to understand that it was wrong to eat of the TKGE, and that disobeying God is evil.
So in what sense could it be said that Adam and Eve came to know good and evil after the Fall? If they were created with an understanding of moral categories and had the ability to engage in moral reasoning, what did eating from the TKGE give them that they did not already have? Perhaps the solution is to look more closely at the Hebrew word for “know,” yada. It has a range of meanings. It can refer to both cognitive knowledge, as well as experiential knowledge (which is why yada is used as a euphemism for sexual relations). To illustrate the distinction, consider sight. A blind person can have knowledge of the biochemistry involved in sight, and thus be said to know about sight (cognitive knowledge), but they do not know what it is like to experience sight (experiential knowledge). While Adam and Eve had cognitive knowledge of good and evil before the Fall, they came to know evil in a new way after the Fall because they experienced it personally.
While I am inclined toward this explanation, it is not without its own significant problems:
- Genesis 3:22 doesn’t say humans came to know evil, but rather “good and evil.” If we understand yada as referring to experience, then we have to conclude that Adam and Eve not only lacked experience of evil prior to the Fall, but experience of the good as well. That seems counterintuitive. Surely they experienced good when they walked with God in the cool of the day and in their interactions with each other. Surely they experienced goodness in their observations of God’s good creation.
- God said “man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” Since man’s knowledge is like God’s knowledge, if man’s knowledge was an experiential knowledge of evil, then God must also have an experiential knowledge of evil. This is absurd, since it would mean God has committed evil.
Both views have significant theological problems, and I don’t want to be forced into picking my poison. Is there another explanation? What are your thoughts?
July 20, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Tough one Jason. I think if we look at it from the perspective of an infant growing up into adulthood we might have a bit more to go on. When an infant reaches a certain age they have knowledge of good and evil, not that fully grasp what either are in their fullest capacity, but as they grow older they become more acquainted with the rudiments of both and has the ability to choose between them. Their moral capacity is engaged, therefore they can make informed decisions as whether they are going to do good or evil, so neither is a knee-jerk reaction but carefully thought actions made by rational people. So it could very be that now Adam and Eve gain that rationality of understanding the nature of both good and evil as opposed just the innocence of infant naivety they might have had prior to the fall. Remember that the serpent told Eve that the fruit would make her wise (not that she was stupid before) and that she would have knowledge like God and become like him knowing good and evil. How do we consider God to know good and evil, isn’t to its fullest? So it could be in that wise. Just a thought.
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July 20, 2012 at 5:08 pm
[…] It is often said that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE). This does seem to be the straight… […]
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July 20, 2012 at 6:48 pm
I see this as perspective/comparative, ie, good compared to evil. One can understand good and experience good, yet without the knowledge of evil, so good stands alone pure and innocent. So they had knowledge of good, just not the knowledge of good + evil. If God says “do not”, then this implies a mental understanding that God does not want something to happen (boundaries), and if the command is violated one will “surely die”. This was understood by Eve and she repeated it to the Serpent. In this dialogue alone, before the fall, a concept of a right and wrong, of, “can do” and “can’t do” was understood. I do not see Eve oblivious to understand “Do” and “Don’t do” as if this concept was void of moral value. That Eve somehow did not understand that doing the “don’t do” was neither good nor bad; She knew doing the “don’t do” was bad. Yet, this “do not” command, with its moral value understood, did not carry the perspective of evil. So in this sense evil was understood, but relative to its evilness. Not completely related, but as Paul said, “sin became utterly sinful.”
They did experience good before the fall (and understood it) without evil, but once evil was experienced, good become “apparent” and understood from a different perspective. So “good” now had a counterpart after the fall. It is a whole lot different looking into the pit of roaring lions, than it does looking out of the pit of roaring lions. Perspective is everything.
I believe that this evil could have been understood without experience. God knowing evil is relatively simple; it is the opposite of his moral character. Evil is not evil because God deems it so, it is so, because evil is any variance from His moral character. This variance is separation from the source of life (God), and that death is evil. For in God there is no shadow of turning. God knows what happens when one is unplugged from the source of life. God knows because he is omniscient. We came to know evil through rebelion.
My 2 cents 🙂
Dane
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July 20, 2012 at 7:53 pm
I think you are on the right track with “know” being the experiential type. And perhaps, the explanation is that the (experiential) knowledge of evil is in addition to their pre-existing knowledge of good. Just as I can say that I know you. If I were to meet your cousin, I could say that I now know “you and your cousin”…this includes the possibility that I already knew you.
To know God is to know goodness. So perhaps it is just a lack of inflection.
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July 20, 2012 at 8:08 pm
I also agree with dane. Evil is not a thing unto itself. It is the opposite of good which is a thing. Much like darkness has no substance…its just the absense of light.
So after the fall, Adam and eve now knew that there can be an opposite of good. Being people that lived for their entire existence by God’s Word, they never knew anything else…which is consistent with John 1 when it says that by the Word “all things were made and without him was not anything was made that was made”
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July 21, 2012 at 1:55 am
My particular view, academic as it may be, is that the knowledge of good and evil has to do with the realization that their wills’ were free to choose between the two.
Prior to Eve’s deception and Adam’s willful disobedience, while existing as free moral agents, I submit that Adam and Eve didn’t know they were such, until the serpent awakened them (specifically Eve) to the concept.
A similar thing occurs in children. At some age, a child realizes they can choose to disobey a parent, i.e. that they are free to choose between good (obedience) and evil (disobedience). The Law of Sin being what it is, children by nature choose, often and eventually, the latter.
Then, at that moment, when such a choice is made, the knowledge of good and evil enters, and as it reads in Romans (regarding the knowledge of sin through the law and that without the law, sin is not imputed; 3:20 and 5:13, respectively) the Law of Sin manifests, comes alive, and slays (7:5-11).
So, to me, free will is death. The only life God offers is through a complete submission of the will to His. That’s why God warned them that in the day they eat, they would surely die. Not physically, of course, but the moment they became self-aware of their own freedom to choose between the two, and so ate, they died. Had they refused the serpent, they would have ostensibly chosen good, but the damage was already done. Self-conscious freedom of the will was established. This is why it’s a package deal: good and/with evil, not one exclusive to the other.
Then, to rescue humanity from such a death, God sent Jesus to taste death for every man, pre-destinating His Son to suffer the same fate as we, so that, through His complete submission to the will of God, Jesus could effect our salvation. This, I believe, is the essence of Paul’s argument in Romans 5:15-21.
As to the morality vs. amorality of Adam and Eve, I think we can only conclude that they were innocent prior to the Fall. Their conscious’ were completely devoid of defilement or enlightenment. On the surface, this may appear to make them amoral, but I would argue that their morality, instituted by God, was merely dormant, awaiting a trigger. This is why God put the tree in the garden and gave them the freedom to choose. He knew they were going to need that moment of enlightenment in order for their dormant morality to kick-in. He just also happened to know the cost of that moment, and so, provided from time immemorial, the plan or solution/payment of that cost, i.e. the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Regarding imago Dei, I think an understanding of the Hebrew concept of image is important here. Does it mean a similitude of God? Does it mean that Adam was to somehow be like God (perhaps even God-like) by virtue of being such an image?
I think not. My understanding of tselem is that being the image of God made Adam His representative figure on earth, and nothing more. A representative in this case is merely someone who operates by proxy, not someone who takes after or is like to the one which they represent (Compare this to the Greek word for image regarding Jesus being the image of the invisible God in Colossians 1:15. The word is eikon, and means a likeness or to have a resemblance, i.e. to be a representation of. Semantically, it may appear to be only a slight difference, but doctrinally, the difference is quite significant).
Now, regarding likeness (Genesis 1:26), I understand this adjective to mean an embodiment or manifestation. If this is so, we don’t have to automatically assume that Adam was the embodiment or manifestation of God’s moral nature. As the first son of God (Luke 3:38), Adam could very well embody or manifest other aspects of God, like, for example, God’s creative or redemptive power. As such, Adam (and by extension all of humanity) serves as a symbol of God’s awesome ability and might in the universe to create and/or save, and not necessarily be a copy of the divine holiness and righteousness of God in the earth in human form. Make sense? See the difference?
Finally, just to say again, this is all just academic reasoning as I’ve come to so far think. I’m persuadable here, i.e. not overly dogmatic about it. So, to each their own on whatever they feel is true. Peace
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July 21, 2012 at 3:37 pm
Google First Scandal. When you get there, go to the top of the page and click on “Can you explain…”
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July 22, 2012 at 10:29 pm
Jason, Thank you for providing this blog concerning the Fall of Adam and Eve. I wanted to add my input and please let me know if I confuse anybody. Concerning the Knowledge of God and evil, God explained it to me this way. God is the creator of all things and the source of all creation, he has power that the human can not contain nor come close to unless he allows it. God know what is opposite or contradiction of his character. The opposite of light is darkness(in a spiritual sense). Not to say God is evil but he knows what is not of him. The Fall of Adam may have opened that gateway to experience(as you mentioned earlier using the Blind Man analogy) evil and live in sin. With this causing God to separate from man for he is not a God that is evil and opposite of nature. Hope this makes sense.
Quick Questions to add my 2 cents in the tithe bucket as well. In the Old Testament in Proverbs 16:4, it says: The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. What does this mean fully? Any thoughts?
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July 23, 2012 at 9:40 am
“While Adam and Eve had cognitive knowledge of good and evil before the Fall, they came to know evil in a new way after the Fall because they experienced it personally.”
Jason, I agree with your above statement 100%.
“Genesis 3:22 doesn’t say humans came to know evil, but rather “good and evil.” ”
I think this is just semantics here, the experience of evil was “added” to their experience of good which they already had.
“God said “man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” Since man’s knowledge is like God’s knowledge, if man’s knowledge was an experiential knowledge of evil, then God must also have an experiential knowledge of evil. This is absurd, since it would mean God has committed evil.”
You’re right, it is absurd. Therefore the premise of this statement must be wrong. I think it is quite impossible for us know how God “knows” things – let’s leave it at that. 🙂
Naz
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July 23, 2012 at 11:28 am
Dane,
You seem to be echoing my preferred explanation, but if the knowledge they gained of evil after the fall was based on their experience of evil, then how could their knowledge of evil (experiential) be the same as God’s since God does not know what it is like to experience evil.
Perhaps it’s just a matter of having experienced evil, not necessarily perpetrating it. Indeed, with the rebellion of the angelic hosts God did experience evil.
Jason
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July 23, 2012 at 11:36 am
Nico,
I had the same thought. It’s quite possible that God did not mean to say they did not experience good previously, but merely that now they have experienced both good and evil.
But the problem would still remain about how God could be said to know evil in the sense of experiencing evil, unless, what I said in comment #9 is true.
Jason
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July 23, 2012 at 11:45 am
Aaron,
But if they did not realize that they had the ability to choose before the Fall, then how did they exercise that ability in the Fall? Also, wouldn’t Adam and Eve know that God would have no reason to command them not to eat of the TKGE is they weren’t capable of doing so?
But the concept of submission entails free will. So how can free will = death if free will is required for submission to God = life?
Jason
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July 23, 2012 at 11:50 am
Naz,
You agree with Nico on this, and I think you are both right. This is a good way to solve the problem.
What do you think of my proposal that the knowledge of evil in view is experiential knowledge, but that experiential knowledge can result from either having perpetrated the evil or having experienced the effects of evil? God did not have the experience of perpetrating evil, but He did have the experience of the effects of evil (angelic rebellion).
Jason
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July 24, 2012 at 6:28 am
Jason, I’m not smart enough to make a comment about whether the knowledge of evil was experiential knowledge or not. How can we classify the knowledge of an Omnipotent God ?
Aside from that, I accept your statement since it does makes sense.
Naz
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July 24, 2012 at 7:54 pm
When Satan said, you shall be as God knowing good and evil, was not that introduction to forbidden knowledge? That knowledge itself was introduced by Satan and is what compelled Eve to take the fruit. And notice God said if you eat of this fruit you shall surely die not “you shall be like me knowing Good when you eat of this fruit but you shall surely die. Was that portion left out by God for a purpose? I believe it was because he was looking out for the well being of humanity. Why was it the only tree that was forbidden was it because the knowledge of good and evil was the “experience of sin? Just a thought, please clarify if I am not making sense.
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July 24, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Aaron:
As to the morality vs. amorality of Adam and Eve, I think we can only conclude that they were innocent prior to the Fall. Their conscious’ were completely devoid of defilement or enlightenment. On the surface, this may appear to make them amoral, but I would argue that their morality, instituted by God, was merely dormant, awaiting a trigger. This is why God put the tree in the garden and gave them the freedom to choose. He knew they were going to need that moment of enlightenment in order for their dormant morality to kick-in. He just also happened to know the cost of that moment, and so, provided from time immemorial, the plan or solution/payment of that cost, i.e. the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
May you please explain this again, are you saying God was waiting for Adam and eve to commit sin? I understand God has foreknowledge for he knows the beginning from the end but the way you described is that God organized the fall of man? May I am not understanding, please elaborate.
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July 25, 2012 at 8:22 am
@Reginald – surely if you hold that God knows the future, then he did organise the fall in that it was available and he foreknew that they would fall.
On the other hand, failing to do this removes the notion of free-will.
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July 25, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Reginald,
My own view is that there was nothing inherent within the fruit itself. What gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil was their experience of evil. How did they experience evil? By disobeying the command of God. In my opinion, God could have equally said, “You can say anything you like, but do not say “wow,” for in the day you do you will die” and the effect would have been the same. The object was not what mattered. It was the act of disobedience that mattered.
Jason
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July 25, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Reginald,
I would agree that they were morally innocent, but that does not mean they did not have knowledge of moral categories. It just means they had no experience of evil. When they disobeyed God, they experienced evil and its effects: something they did not know before the Fall.
Jason
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July 27, 2012 at 12:54 am
“But if they did not realize that they had the ability to choose before the Fall, then how did they exercise that ability in the Fall…?”
The ability to choose, or rather, the realization that they had the ability to choose occurred concurrently to the when the option was presented to them by the serpent. Prior to the serpent’s interference, because of the innocent natural of their conscience’s, I think we can safely assume that Adam and Eve had no reason to question, doubt, or disobey God. For them, in their innocence, there wasn’t another option. The only thing that informed their minds on the matter was God said no. But when the serpent spoke and created doubt in what God had said (or meant), and so, presented a second option, the realization of the existence of their already free will came about.
It was at that point that they exercised that ability in the Fall, but not prior.
“…Also, wouldn’t Adam and Eve know that God would have no reason to command them not to eat of the TKGE is they weren’t capable of doing so?”
Not when they are innocent. I think we have a hard time imagining what their mindset was like prior to eating from the TKGE and the subsequent enlightening of their minds. The best analogy is a child. Very, very young children believe everything, doubt nothing, question nothing, and take to heart all that they are told, regardless of veracity. It’s only when “sin revives” in them and they becoming actively aware of their freedom to doubt, question, disobey, and etc that they realize just what they are and are not capable of.
As an example: When my daughter was a baby, she had no fear of heights. Now that she is two, and has fallen and been hurt, she thinks twice about how high she wants to climb. What made the difference? Innocence, i.e. lack of knowledge. When she was a baby, she had no ability to understand height, distance, falling, or being hurt should she fall. So no fear existed. It’s only as knowledge entered into the picture that fear developed. So it is with the TKGE.
Adam and Eve knew only what God told them. In their innocence, they accepted all things. When the serpent came to beguile, he began a process that eroded their innocence. First, he created doubt in God and His Word. Second, tricked Eve into thinking something as true that was not true. Last, once convinced, she exercised her newly realized freedom to choose, and so, ate. Then, once Adam saw that Eve was free to disobey, he also realized his own freedom to do so, and so did.
“But the concept of submission entails free will. So how can free will = death if free will is required for submission to God = life?”
To submit to God is to “die”. To kill the freedom of the will and die to this death, as it were, is to submit to God, taking the death that is freewill to its furthest (dare I say deadly) point: freely surrendering oneself to God, even as the will, and the person, metaphorically speaking, on a spiritual level, dies. Nothing less than this is actual submission to God.
But, for believers, to gain the life in the Spirit that God offers, God must resurrect, but only after a person has “died”. Life from God doesn’t come before then, anymore than Jesus resurrected prior to dying.
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July 27, 2012 at 1:09 am
To Reginald:
“May you please explain this again, are you saying God was waiting for Adam and eve to commit sin? I understand God has foreknowledge for he knows the beginning from the end but the way you described is that God organized the fall of man? May I am not understanding, please elaborate.”
Not waiting, per se. But God knew it was going to occur, and when. Did God organize it? Better yet, did God orchestrate it?
Well, all the players involved in the Fall were put there by God, were they not? God made Adam and Eve, made the garden, put them both there, made the serpent, put that there, made the tree, put it in there, too. And He gave the command, knowing full well what was eventually going to happen once all the players came together at the right time and moment.
Did God make or force it to happen? No. But we can’t say God didn’t create the conditions that allowed it to happen. It comes with the territory of creating beings with free will. In order to have freedom of the will, there must be a setting or environment where that freedom can be exercised, otherwise it’s just a charade, a virtual demo, if you will, that has no bearing in the real world.
And since God created the conditions that allowed it to happen, it only makes sense that God had a plan for solving the mess that Adam created once it did happen. But that freedom to choose/disobey had to be there, so, by necessity, there had to be something that Adam could do to disobey, which, in this case, was eat from a forbidden tree, otherwise there were no means available to Adam to exercise his freewill.
It’s like this: If God had told Adam that he could eat from every tree in the garden except for one, but then never placed that one tree in the garden to begin with, then there would be no way for Adam to choose, meaning whatever freedom God had given him was fake. Only when something is truly testable can it actually be tested.
Make better sense?
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January 30, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Adam and eve were kicked out of the garden because “Genesis 3:22 – Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”–
Genesis 3:23 – therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Genesis 3:24 – So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
So the knowledge of good and evil makes us like God. Adam and eve did not have that before the “deed”
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February 17, 2013 at 7:30 pm
Adam and Eve did not know the true nature of good and bad. They naturally assumed that good is good and bad is bad. When Eve saw that the fruit was not poisonous, she assumed that because it was physically good it must therefore be actually good. So she ate it.
The knowledge of good and bad is that good is bad and bad is good: physical good is really bad, and physical bad is really good. In a pure sense, physical pleasures are temptations for dysfunctional behaviors. While long and hard toil for ultimate achievement is the essence of true goodness.
Adam and Eve should have gained the tree’s knowledge just by looking at it and avoiding it by God’s command. This showed that physical good without God’s approval is bad. And physical deprivation with God’s approval is good. But they instead gained its knowledge in sin, and that had a calamitous affect.
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March 4, 2013 at 3:32 pm
I was interested to find this thread. I’ve been contemplating this topic for the last year or so. Here’s sort of how I see it.
I think God made Adam and Eve perfect. When he finished his work he said everything was very good. So it seems to me that God created them only with the ability to do good and nothing else. But, he didn’t make them with a way to self-analyze themselves. In other words, they didn’t know they were doing good; they were just naturally doing good without knowing it. Like a bird doesn’t need to analyze its ability to fly; it just does it.
Satan had introduced sin into the universe. he was no doubt accusing God of mismanaging the universe (suggesting he could do better). He he really wanted to be worshiped himself and had already seduced a good number of the angels with the same type of subtle lies he was now telling Eve.
To Eve he was telling her that God had withheld something from them that was necessary for their advancement. He was making it seem as though God was arbitrary. He focused on Gods prohibition instead of what he had freely given.
God had said: Of all the trees in the garden you may freely eat. Satan said this: Has God said that you shall not eat of every tree in the garden? The spin he put on Gods words drew Eve into the conversation. She felt obligated to correct him and tell him what God had really said. Once she engaged with him in the conversation his task was easy.
Once they ate of the tree, they immediately gained the ability to look at themselves and determine that what they did was wrong, and as a result felt guilt and shame.
God had not withheld anything from them that was for their own good. The were perfect without the ability to know they were doing good. If anything, the tree was a protection for them. It was the only place where Satan had access to them.
If God had not placed the forbidden tree in the garden, Satan would surely have used this to further his claims against God; proving to the other angels who hadn’t sided with him that his accusations were true.
Once they had this knowledge they immediately went to work to rid themselves of their guilt; and this has been mans problem every since.
I can think of no better definition for the Law than – the knowledge of good and evil. Now, its as if God sets out to answer the accusation Satan had made against him.
Its as if he says: You thought this knowledge was so good and necessary? OK then, let me give you an abundance of it. And so he creates a people, and gives them the knowledge of good and evil in abundance. He not only gave them Ten Commandments, but a total of 613 laws, and then he let them run with that program for about 1800 years.
When the fullness of time came, he sent his Son. Had they benefited from the law? Had it mad them good people? Certainly they were the best law-keepers in the world; but it had produced no righteousness.
So God makes them an offer. I’ll take away the law and give you back what you forfeited in the garden. If you choose my Son, you wont need the law because you’ll have it written on your heart.
His desire is to bring us back to our innocence where we do good without knowing it; like the sheep in the parable who feed, clothe, and visit; all without knowing their doing good.
I believe we are faced with the same choice today as were our parents in the garden. Christ is the Tree of Life, and the Law is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Sorry for such a long post. I didn’t know how to say in in a shorter version.
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April 1, 2013 at 9:14 pm
How long were Adam and Eve and Eve in the garden before partaking of the fruit? It could have been millions of years or a few months. Either way they seemed to stay away from it until Satan was allowed to tempt them. The tree was in the middle of the garden, not in a separate orchard. It was one tree of good and evil, not two trees, one of good and one of evil. It stood as the bitter fruit of death as opposed to the tree of life.
Adam and Eve did not understand death at the time. There had been none die before. This is why they were able to be tempted by the concept of not dying. The idea of wisdom may have been curiosity but they were not capable of pride.
Adam and Eve could not have sinned in choosing the fruit. They knew no other law to establish sin. There was no adultery, stealing, bearing false witness etc. The tree of death (good and evil) was as has been said an innocuous tree. Not bad in itself but was set as a rule or boundary God had given. The penalty for breaking the rule was mortality and death. God chose the penalty to suit his purposes.
The choice was to leave innocence. To become adults in a sense, now capable of exercising faith in their Redeemer and the glorious eternal life he would deliver. It would appear that Adam had pretty much decided not to eat the fruit on his own so God allowed the enemy to hasten the process of Adam’s making the decision that God needed in order to begin the real salvation of Adam’s and Eve’s souls. Their bodies wouldn’t be perfected until they were resurrected. Their character would also be perfected through choice, repentance, mercy and grace.
They would now have to find humility with the existence of pride pushing on them and voluntarily living with good and evil with an opportunity to forsake evil by choice. The continued existence of mankind with the tempter present would bring sin and sorrow. Redemption would be wrought by faith in a redeemer, even the Son of God. Adam and Eve were the world’s first Christians. God gave them laws applicable to mortality and they taught their children.
Many theologians don’t understand what happened in the garden. They make Jesus a contingency (if they think man was to remain in the garden and the fall was a mistake). Satan induced what Adam and Eve resisted on their own. God saw his evil intent and used it against him. Jesus was the only plan for salvation all along, from before the beginning of the world. He was not a plan B as misguided doctrinal conclusions about the fall would imply.
Satan was cast to earth and allowed into the garden to make sure the fall took place. He was the contingency to Adam’s obedience. Misguided as he was, he thought he was causing the Father’s plan to derail when he was actually putting it into effect. The plan B effect seems to be the thinking of theologians of classical theism as well. It just isn’t so.
Jesus was foreordained to be our savior before the earth was established. He came because mortality was an essential element of salvation. Another necessary element is freedom, which also allowed for sin and necessitated an atonement. The reason the garden setting existed was so that the sorrow of mortality and death was chosen voluntarily by Adam and Eve, though induced by a tempter. It was not forced upon them. The two choices before them were the limit of their freedom at the time. Their choice brought Jesus Christ to the earth.
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April 10, 2013 at 6:51 am
An interesting discussion indeed. We do all know that the original Hebrew had Adam listening with great interest as Eve spoke loudly and often to him on the subject and that he ate of the fruit with gusto. What does this suggest as Adam sat between the two trees (both in the middle of the garden) and deliberately chose as he did. And, when the punishment came he did not choose to ask for forgiveness but very willingly chose separation from God (He renamed his wife “Eve”- from “woman”- which means “mother of all the living”) seeming to say “I am the father of all the living”). Adam was walking with God daily and yet he did this.
This was not an everyday arguement. From the words, God could not permit Adam to continue in the garden as he would specifically have access to the Tree of Life. Why would this have been such a problem?
My theory is that Adam may have seen things in the garden that he did not agree with and yet God permitted them to happen.
For example, we know that Adam was the gardener. This seems to say that the garden needed a gardener. Is it possible that this gardener did not like it when a fire destroyed some of his precious trees (as we know, fire replentishes the chemicals in the ground so further growth can take place). He might see this fire as bad and want to prevent it in the future. The problem here is that the trees get older and drier and eventually all of Eden would burn, or the ground would become so depleted of minerals, the trees would all die, or stop producing nuts and fruit.
In other words, Adam came to think that he had a better solution than God (short sighted), became angry and rejected God’s authority (the opposite of Jesus Christ). God could not permit Adam to cuntinue in Eden because, as the servant king, He would have had to accept Adam’s decisions which would lead necessarily to destruction. God could not do this or He would not be God.
I see this as interesting today. We all want to know what is good or identify ourselves with “doing good things for God”. However, not even Christ did “good things for God” (no one is good except God). Christ simply held fast to the original commandments which was to first submit fully His God and then to “Love your God with all your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind and all of your strength; and love your neighbour as yourself.
This is the message throughout the Bible. Only God knows the concequences of any action. We must trust Him totally that His decisions are perfect.
So, when we say that we are doing good things or that somone else is or has done good things, we a flying in the face of God. We must simpply “do the RIGHT thing each and every time, thinking fist of God and then of everyone else in humanity. Only then may we think of ourselves.
We learn all of this in the first few chapters of the Bible.
Enoch is interesting in this regard.
Therefore, the
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April 11, 2013 at 8:27 pm
“To know”meant they would determine good and evil based upon human reasoning and standards learned from the Devil rather than accepting what God previously instructed them was good and evil.
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April 12, 2013 at 7:35 am
Then you agree with me, we have two different aspects of good and evil, God’s perspective and man’s perspective; as you said: “they would determine good and evil based upon human reasoning and standards learned from the Devil rather than accepting what God previously instructed them was good and evil.”
In other words there are two kinds of evil, one intentional and the other consequential. The fundamental consequences of disobeying/disregarding God’s commandments (based upon man’s definition of good and evil) lead to evil, destruction and death. God “prophesied” the demise (death) of Adam, fully knowing in his Godly knowledge but understanding in his Godly understanding of what would be the result of Adam’s action i.e. the knowledge of “good and evil”.
The evil that Adam did was to fundamentally understand the consequences of his action yet choose to act in a way that destroyed the future. This is the “devil” fully at work. He used man’s need to do good against man by using man’s feelings of pride in accomplishing something that God was not doing. There are more examples in history than you can count of this. Man does good, or at least what he thinks is good, and the result is famine, war and death.
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April 12, 2013 at 10:02 am
I don’t see how there could be two kinds of evil. Evil is based on law. There is only one law giver, that is God. There is no sin without a law. God’s laws are based on eternal principles of order and good. He doesn’t change. The law protects us from evil. The consequences of breaking the law is spiritual death, being cut off from God. Through repentance and subsequent forgiveness the spirit can be regained. This happened with Adam and Eve.
Other consequences of sin are emotional and physical, the same as breaking a natural law. Violate the law of gravity and you will suffer some injury. Violate the law of chastity, kill or steal and you may suffer emotionally and physically. All mankind have the light of Christ to begin with to guide them unless they ignore it. John 1:9
Adam and Eve did not have another law as they were not mortal at the time and walked with God. They had one opposing choice with a consequence chosen by God. They, the God’s (plural, the Father and the Son) did not say that Behold, the man has become like Satan because they chose to eat. God said ” The man has become as one of us, to know good and evil”. That was the consequence God wanted and attached to that one tree. Now God could instruct the man and his posterity in the ideals of freedom and choice.
Partaking the fruit was not evil. The fall was the consequence of taking it. Sin and sorrow followed because mankind would now multiply with evil and a tempter present. Freedom would allow all to choose good or evil. Sorrow would multiply as well because of sin and the numbers of people choosing evil. Death would free man from Satan. Christ would free man from death. Evil would be overcome and every man would be held accountable for his own choices.
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April 13, 2013 at 4:29 am
I have always taken that scripture to mean that they gained the desire to compete with each other on who was better and who was worse. I see it as a shift from being committed to each other and to god to one of being a competitive “betterthan”. It the old “Would you rather serve in heaven or rule in hell” problem. Humans take the latter at alarming rates. Mostly, because they are afraid of each other. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of judgementalism, If there is a devil, it is the notion that you need to be better than everyone else or have a really good excuse for not being that way.
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April 13, 2013 at 11:04 am
Hello Charlie
“I don’t see how there could be two kinds of evil. Evil is based on law. There is only one law giver, that is God. There is no sin without a law.”
I did not mean there were two kinds of law at all. What I meant was our idea of where evil comes from and my interpretation is that more evil comes from man trying to do good than form man trying to do evil. In fact, I believe that all evil comes from man trying to do good!
That said, I also believe that all of the conclusions or ideas that we have should be reckoned against the Truth and the Truth is Christ, and Christ is God. If God does not seem to be Christ, probably we have the wrong answer and probably the wrong original premise.
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August 8, 2013 at 2:55 am
believers of fairy tales…your quarrels will guide you nowhere….how stupid can a man be when he thinks serpants could talk..Time is much more precious than quarreling over a myth .For you value your mind so little.
Better believe something true…something not created by an old man who says he saw burning bushes
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August 8, 2013 at 3:08 am
Joey,
Thanks for the demeaning comments.
I bet you are a guy who believes something came from absolutely nothing, that life comes from non-life, that order comes from order, and that mind comes from the mindless. You might want to reassess what you deem a fairy tale.
Jason
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August 22, 2013 at 12:06 am
“God said “man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” Since man’s knowledge is like God’s knowledge, if man’s knowledge was an experiential knowledge of evil, then God must also have an experiential knowledge of evil. This is absurd, since it would mean God has committed evil”
I believe that God’s experimental knowledge of evil” is indeed a fact not because one may suggest that God has commited evil, but because he endured evil as a result of the defect of his own angels. So, while man experienced evil through commiting evil, God experienced evil through the heartbreaking apostasy of his beloved archangel “Lucifer”
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August 22, 2013 at 12:19 am
Just to verify that the phrase “to know” in Greek is “na gnoriso” which doesn’t really imply a simple knowledge of someone or something but a much deeper one.The phracse “to know” may easily be transalted as “to experience knowledge”
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August 22, 2013 at 11:51 pm
@ Joey, absolute nothing….probably not, we really cannot be sure. That life comes from non life, what does this mean? Consider what happens when someone suffers a head injury, the abilities lost correspond to the parts of the brain damaged. The abilities lost seem to suggest that our being is limited to that which lies with our body. This speaks against the notion that there is another “I” apart from this body, that we inhabit. Can you demonstrate the contrary? I ask what is spirit? What is the supernatural? Demonstrate it. Show me……..You cannot. After death “experiences” can be produced artificially. I prefer no answer to bullshit and speculation.
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September 4, 2013 at 5:48 pm
Maybe it is more to do with the meanings of the Hebrew words that are mostly translated as good and evil but can also mean more than and less than. In the image of God and their innocence they did not see things in terms of more or less. Things just were. It wasn’t until after the fall they became self conscious and felt less than. From the time of the fall we have been gauging ourselves and each other as either more or less than.
God can experience this more than/ less than without being affected by it negatively because he is the most, the highest, the fullness of all things.
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September 16, 2013 at 8:36 pm
I love this post, I have to first say. Discourse and banter are lost arts especially in the established religious practicing body.
1. We are missing a huge point. Evil would not exsist without God creating it. Without him nothing was made that was made. Experiencing something is only necessary if u are not the creator of it. As the creator you are privy to information about it that even those that experience it are limited in their understanding of based off of the context of their experience. We know in part and see in part.
2. I propose that God never intended for us to rationalize things like good and evil… ie decide… ie judge
…. as individuals connected to the light, the one, the great, the whole, the Universe, would we even need our own individualized ability to reason good and evil. Doesn’t connection erase that need. If I am connected to something we are one. That means I can hear it if I choose to listen. If I choose to listen to the great one then I don’t need my own rational as our rational is one.
We are not capable of making decisions about what’s good and evil. That’s why the word of God is a book of does and don’ts. Old Testament as laws New Testament as guides. The tree didn’t give us knowledge as we know it.. It made us believe we had a full knowledge and that door was opened when we decided to question and then trust something that was not a part of the connection we had with the one even before we took the bite.
One would argue then… He never meant for us to have free will. But, he put us in a garden to choose among a myriad of options for food and sustenance. He also separated Eve for Adam because Adam was lonely and desired something for himself. Both of those things sound like choices. I think the original design is u choose. But as a good father/ mother let me lay before options to choose from that are wondrous and do not separate us.
That’s the awesomeness of salvation and every other name for it in every other belief system. It is us being saved from our unconnected “knowledgable” selves. (Sorry for all misspelling and bad grammar)… (Big smile)
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October 24, 2013 at 7:12 pm
I really appreciate you all, I am an online Bible student and need a lot of such details in Bible passages, if anyone is interested in helping me please take my email and help me, and I will be grateful; ahene4life@ymail.com
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October 24, 2013 at 7:23 pm
again, God said “Behold, the man has become like one of Us”, (Genesis 3: 22), this shows God was speaking to some others with Him, and I do not believe those were angels but a supernatural Beings just like God. With the idea of the Godhead, (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit), which one was God referring to?
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November 1, 2013 at 7:51 am
I believe that Adam & Eve learned “self interest” that day. This embodies both good and evil thoughts and deeds towards one another. It also replaces God’s “self interest” as he had designed His universe.
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November 14, 2013 at 12:12 am
The temptaion laid before Adam and Eve in the garden is not entirely the same but not disimilar to what multitudes will face at the end of days when Christ has reigned a 1000 years. 1000 years of knowing nothing but Christs authority and the Father’s provision with no temptor to tempt and then Satan is released from chains, by God no less, to go and decieve. In my opinion there can only be one purpose; to see what lies at the heart of every person and whether they will follow Christ by their own volition.
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November 19, 2013 at 8:41 am
These questions are the questions. You can not know good with out evil. Opposites must exist. How can you experience pleasure with out pain? You have no understanding of one with out the other. They walked and talked with God but they had no real understanding of the pleasure and peace they enjoyed because they had not experienced the opposite, the pain and agony of leaving his presence.
I think there was a knowledge of good and evil previous though. In mans pre-mortal state with God we had choice and some chose good, some chose evil. But this was not a full understanding of good and evil because this was with out body. As Adam and Eve were placed on earth they gained bodies instituting a whole new world, governed by spirit through Christ, but subject to flesh. So know it became our duty to distinguish to discover good and evil according to flesh and how to use our bodies to glorify God. To have families and establish them in the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.
As to God experiencing evil, I think that you may be right with Heavenly Father experiencing evil through its effects. I will add though that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and Joseph Smith said that God underwent a process of progression like us, except he became exalted as God. Jesus Christ said that he did as he has seen the Father do. I know this does not answer the question very well because it opens a wormhole of other questions. But for your question as to God not doing evil, your 100% right, God is only good. But he had to learn it from somewhere and just giving some perspective as to the believes of others.
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November 19, 2013 at 10:20 am
Just wanted to correct my thinking on the last post. That last paragraph has a major fallacy and that is that Jesus Christ does what he has seen the Father do. Which means that the Father was perfect and did no Evil just as Christ did. So it just goes back to what you said about God experiencing evil through others acts.
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February 14, 2014 at 8:02 am
the Knowledge of good and evil is that evil will always win. good can only do what is good, evil will do anything to destroy good. evil has no restrictions, it can pretend to be good to do evil. good must, by definition, only do what is good, it cannot be evil. in the end, evil will do whatever it takes to win. the higher understanding of the moral code would be to do what is right. when doing what is right, you give nothing to the wrong. wrongness can never become powerful and supercede rightness. wrong is ignorance, failure. wrongness cannot use righteousness to win. by definition, wrong will always lose to right. always do what is right
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February 19, 2014 at 1:48 am
An alternative perspective:
All that exists exists within the godhead. All that is experienced by any, is experienced by the godhead. The godhead had already experienced evil, in the fall of Satan. The godhead has all the resources within it to endure the experience. The human race does not cope well with evil, and the more righteous a person is the greater their suffering in the presence of evil as well as participants in it. Given the nature of the human condition, It is a mercy that our lives are as short as they are. Only in a state fully incorporated into the godhead, with its resources of ultimate comfort and full knowledge, is eternal life tolerable.
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March 18, 2014 at 1:47 pm
This is what I got from rewarding genesis. The story is simple and profound and I not sure how many are still running in circles with it. Anyway here’s what I got from it:
When God created the universe he said all his creation was VERY GOOD. If what God said is true there isn’t room for evil. Now it was time when God created man and put him in the garden and they had the choice of eating of the tree of Life or the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The Serpent told Eve that if they ate of it they would be like gods knowing good and evil. What does it mean to “know good and evil”? It means that you have the ability to judge things in this case they would be able to judge Gods creation. Remember God said all of his creation was very good therefore none of his creation is bad so for man to say that a thing was evil such as being naked is to rely on your own understanding beside from Gods understanding. So Adam and Eve began to rely on their own understanding which pushed them away from Gods will. They judged themselves for being naked because they thought it was evil to be naked. This is the root of all sin. To “know good and evil” allows a person to conclude “I am good and you are evil” therefore giving that person personal permission to treat that other person lesser than him. This is the cause of all wars. This is why it says that God would put enmity between Adam and Eve and all their offspring.
Conclusion: Our true nature is to see all of Gods creation as good that way we do not judge and hide ourselves from God.
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March 25, 2014 at 8:15 am
Oh they experienced evil from ‘god’! he threatened them with dead and planted fear of death in them! they were not immortal before they ate from the tree of life, and since that tree is also in the middle of the garden, how could they distinct between the two? The serpent removed fear of death and told them the truth. the serpent did not lie, because adam and eve would have died anyway without any knowledge, naked like animals… how is that not evil on the side of the being that falsely adresses himself as ‘God’? We were so long brainwashed that we cannot even see the obvious anymore. what a shame!
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October 9, 2014 at 6:09 am
Do you mind if I quote a couple of your posts as long as I provide credit and sources
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October 12, 2014 at 8:13 pm
That’s fine Eugene.
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May 12, 2015 at 12:07 pm
It’s ALL MADE UP. EVERYTHING, every last drip drop of it. “Experience” and “knowledge” are all imaginary. Nothing is Truely factual. “Experience” is from a single persons “view” based on their ability to communicate. Even so, the ability for the receiver to understand is now transferred “knowledge” of a human experience. Since no two experiences can be exactly the same, whose to say the experience was not a figment of ones imagination or lack of communication prohibits proper understanding of the “experience”. EVERYTHING IS AN OPINION. Nothing and I mean nothing is factual. EVERY SINGLE THING HAS BEEN PROGRAMMED. From the moment of creation the encouragement to be good was meant to be practiced as long as life existed. If Adam and Eve had NOT eaten from the TKGE, then SURELY a human Must at some point eat from the TKGE. Since Animals also experience death, we as Human Race are making EVERYTHING UP FROM THE MOMENT OF CREATION. The TRUTH lies in knowing NOTHING is what it APPEARS. We as HUMANS HAVE CHOSEN TO PROGRAM AND REPROGRAM ourselves of what is “good and evil”. We have ProGramMed ourselves that pain essentially hurts, and sickness is unhappy. The ONLY TRUTH LIES WITH THE LORD OUR CREATOR. The truth is knowing we essentially know NOTHING at all. We “call” it green, we describe things totally different even from the same “experiences”. REMOVE THOUGHT and you have KNOWLEDGE.
Lean on the lord and let him guide your footsteps, your “thoughts”, your behavior , and filter your life with the TRUTH.
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May 12, 2015 at 2:43 pm
Erica:
Then shall we not be convinced from your commentary thusly:
“It’s ALL MADE UP. EVERYTHING, every last drip drop of it. “Experience” and “knowledge” are all imaginary. Nothing is Truely factual………..”
to
“The truth is knowing we essentially know NOTHING at all……”
and then the whopping unbelievable conclusion of it is:
“The ONLY TRUTH LIES WITH THE LORD OUR CREATOR…….”Lean on the lord and let him guide your footsteps…….”
The Lord Creator is the only thing that is not made up!
All in all theTakeaway from your comments is an illustration in a futile exercise about total made-up-nonsense EXCEPT YOUR CONCLUSION which is the only thing not drip drop “made up” right? OMG what a great laugh nevertheless 🙂 Let us all laugh together 🙂 Now 🙂
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May 12, 2015 at 11:17 pm
HHey OMG how mayth8ngm yiynneed toow can anyone describe anyrectumutide
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September 8, 2015 at 2:08 pm
I just want to take a stab at this, because this topic captures my interest ever time I read Genesis.
1. God is omniscient, No doubt about that. He knows “good” is what He establishes to be “good”. “Good” being what His creation was designed to do, and “evil” being anything outside of or contrary to the design. If I were to create something to represent me, I would build it to do what I wanted it to do. God could have created us to do just that. He wanted us to be a special creation, not a programmed robot.
2. To test the design He had to install a decision “tree”. Adam and Eve were told that they could eat of any tree in the garden, but if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die. You know the rest of that story. They were up to that point innocent from “sin”. Not the same as “evil”.
3. The evil was disobedience to God command. Sin is to act outside of God’s will. Notice that their first reaction to having the knowledge of good and evil was not that they had been evil. It was that they were “naked” causing them to be ashamed. God asked them right off the bat, who told you that you were naked. That is knowledge they should not have had. They would have never considered their nakedness had they been innocent from “evil”.
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September 8, 2015 at 9:07 pm
bobby:
The problem with religion is that it has not progressed one single iota in the last ten thousand centuries and if it ever did progress and agree with man, civilizing, it shall surely die as it would have to accept that dogma is limited and that absolute certainty is not as absolute as they have perpetuated falsely for the last ten thousand centuries.
Look what they did to Galileo Galilei, 400 years ago; one of the foremost scientist of his time invited the religious circles to look through his invention, the telescope, to prove with the knowledge but they would not; they refused to even look through the telescope lest they be converted, receive the light of knowledge and be cleansed from their dogmatic darkness. “For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matt 13:15.
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September 9, 2015 at 9:37 am
Bobby:
In light of your commentary about evil, what do you think about this scripture in Isaiah?
Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things”.
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September 9, 2015 at 9:41 am
Bobby:
Every human being born is born naked even Jesus was born naked so how can being naked be evil?
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September 10, 2015 at 4:40 pm
I will give my comment about both your comments SonofMan. I agree that God did create good and evil and all else that was created. I think I said that evil is what God says it is. As for the naked truth. Naked is not evil, it is sin. After coming to the knowledge of being naked we should dress. If we are to remain naked why so many mentions of robes?
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January 6, 2016 at 3:47 am
What makes you think only humans exhibit moral behaviour? Do you have evidence to suggest this? You should research more on moral behaviour in animals before making such an incorrect assertion.
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January 6, 2016 at 11:00 pm
Bryan, there is a difference between morality and pragmatism. While moral behaviors are often pragmatic, one should not assume that pragmatic behaviors in animals mean they have a moral sense. They understand that doing A gets them the desired B. That’s all. They don’t have moral deliberations, moral guilt, etc. If you care to claim they do, then by all means prove it.
Jason
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December 14, 2017 at 12:51 am
Hello,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have been studying very hard to come to terms with my own knowledge of scripture. This earnest desire has led me to firmly believe that the way these passages are translated from the Hebrew Torah can be challenging for the lay person if you will to understand. William Tyndel once said:
I perceived how that it was impossible to establish the lay people in any truth except the Scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue.
Now read this passage that is familiar to us Western Christans:
” But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
(Genesis 2: 17) KJV
Now read this same verse mechanically translated from the Jewish Torah (old testament)
But of the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
First thing you notice is discernment replaced knowledge. The definition of decernment in our dictionary is:
(to judge well and perception in the absence of judgement)
Knowledge means:
(facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.)
The next set of words you see changed is good and evil to function and dysfunction.
Functional means:
(of or having a special activity, purpose, or task; relating to the way in which something works or operates.)
(designed to be practical and useful, rather than attractive.)
(working or operating)
——————————————————–
Dysfunctional means:
(not operating normally or properly)
Ancient Hebrew people’s were very simplistic in their thinking. Meaning they mainly thought on concrete things which could be experienced through your senses. Your five senses (taste, smell etc.) cannot detect an abstract noun – you can’t see it, smell it, taste it, hear it, or touch it. In essence, an abstract noun is a quality, a concept, an idea, or maybe even an event.
So the word evil which means:
(profoundly immoral and malevolent)
(profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.)
When compared to dysfunctional would be seem abserd to them. Just like the thought of God being evil seems abserd to us.
But let’s look at two examples of how God displayed his ability to be both functional and dysfunctional.
” And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
(Genesis 2: 7)————(functional)
” And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
(Genesis 6: 17)——–(dysfunctional)
I prefer the term bad in place of evil. And it’s important to note here that conflict can be good or functional.
Example:
God moulded people to be functional. But when the majority grew to be too dysfunctional too often he judged well and had compassion on humans and opted to save the best of us instead of destroying everyone.
Now go back and replace knowledge with discernment and replace good with functional and evil will dysfunctional in what you wrote. Hopefully, it will further validate your inclinations. And see if it dissipates your concerns with this verse.
I hope I conveyed this information in a fluid and logical way. The point is that because of culture differences meanings get lost over time. Just setting here telling you this puts me in mind of the tower on Babel. Again, humans began to do very dysfunctional things and using his judgement he made it so that we could go back to functional work.
The view of scripture to the well discerned mind truly is a great prize. But to those who make it less than their only focus truly can not remain functional on your own for long. Which if pondered on long enough you begin to see the wisdom in our Shepard’s words.
I am going to leave you with some information about function and dysfunction from a modern day sociological viewpoint that I found very helpful.
Manifest functions are conscious, deliberate and beneficial, the latent ones the unconscious, unintended and beneficial, and dysfunctions are unconscious, unintended and harmful. [2] While functions are intended (manifest) or unintended (latent), and have a positive effect on society, dysfunctions are unintended or unrecognized (latent) and have a negative effect on society.
You can read the rest of this article at the below Wikipedia link…but it also talks about dysfunction in a similar way.
Also, I welcome any thoughts, comments, questions and/or concerns as I am continually learning. You can reach me at oftoheaven07@gmail.com if you want to connect. Here are a few resorces I used to present the above information:
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/m/about.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_and_latent_functions_and_dysfunctions
Thank you for reading. Shalom
Where your focus goes energy flows.
Without bad we truly can not know good.
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December 16, 2017 at 1:37 pm
I think it’s as simple as this: when you are pure creature, you live a life in which things happen, some good, some bad. When you gain a certain kind of knowledge you become aware that it is possible to cause things, to *choose* to create an outcome. We can go against our divine design; we can willfully commit good or evil, which a pure creature can’t.
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December 16, 2017 at 9:38 pm
If you take the Genesis account literally as most believers do, you are already going down the wrong path.
The Genesis story is a literal religious interpretation using the God Caricature Concept to define the beginning of humanity; indeed the beginning of everything when in fact everything has always existed and everything just evolved and changed and our human existence in the everything, adapted along with everything else.
Gods themselves have evolved over time in the human experience, the Sun, the food we eat and cook, the Golden Calf, the plants we grow and cultivate, the celestial bodies, planets, moons, imaginative beings that were at once humanlike and godlike.
It would make more sense to see humanity as a product of an evolving species in an evolving environment, adapting, learning subconsciously. unconsciously; i.e., genetic adaptation, psychologically, physiologically. Think of tree roots crawling along the earth searching for nutrients all the while manufacturing chlorophyll they know not why they just seem to do what they were driven to do and what some would say designed to do and both may be right, but searching nonetheless for sustenance, becoming what you eat and drink, utilizing whatever source genes drive, conceived humanity in the first place.
Of course there are higher powers from which we derive and are an integral part of the Life Forces and not seems natural to assume an all knowing intelligence is the cause but it takes more belief to accept imaginative reasons than searching for the knowledge of the source that we believe is responsible for the Life Forces and that we will find the knowledge of that source because we are from that source, the source is within humanity and humanity the epitome of the source as far as we can reason and think.
And while I do not believe in the religious god caricature concepts the supernatural and superstitious minds have conjured up that seems to lead most of humanity to believe that, I do believe that humanity will find the truth of the source and our understanding of who we are, why we are and how the source actually contributes to the forces that we reasonably accept as the Life Forces of the Cosmos. And we need to know the truth as much as the tree roots need the sustenance to respond to the life force drives it must follow
Religious superstition and the supernatural skew our reasoning and thwart our instinctual drives to discover ourselves and discover the source of everything.
The truth is out there and we shall find that truth for the truth is the sustenance that will set us free from the tyranny of belief that keeps humanity in thrall to the system that constantly gets in the way of knowledge, preventing knowledge very step of the way wanting to keep horse trading and sales and keeping horseshoe blacksmiths in business rather than accept the automobile; prevent the high-rises from rising to supplant the sprawling single family dwellings so that a hundred families can reside in the same sprawling single family estate.
Take a look at how the cassette supplanted the record industry, how digital technology supplanted the cassette; how email is supplanting the postal delivery. how direct deposit and debit cards render checks theoretically obsolete, mono am radio signals to fm stereo, black and white television to color. The entire human population is familiar with evolutionary processes, in their lifetime. Why we get regular software updates for our computers, phones and books that we can read at night with the lights out.
And people still insist that evolution is a figment of the human imagination while their own religious/supernatural beliefs are not.
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January 26, 2018 at 1:58 am
The innocence of Adam and Eve was not sustained by morality, or the knowledge of such. Adam and Eve’s innocence was sustained by their relationship with the Lord, so long as they heeded His words. The presence of God’s goodness prior to the fall did not offer any knowledge of evil. To know and grow in the nurture of God is to know His goodness experientially, though it may not necessarily be defined objectively, since there was not yet anything to contrast it with. Prior to the fall, there was only the possibility in understanding the life of the Father through their experience. Gods warning about death was significant to Adam and Eve, though it was a warning that was nevertheless distant for them to fully grasp since they did not yet have any knowledge of it through their experience. (At this point, ever wonder why no law was ever necessary to be instituted for adam before the fall restricting him from any of the behavioral transgressions mankind has faced ever since the fall? It was obviously unnecessary since there was an absence of the sin nature, let alone sin itself) This goes far deeper than morality, but is an issue of the human soul and spirit, of life and death. This is why it was the tree of life that was placed in the garden in contrast to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not a tree of good. The tree of life would have forever retained whatsoever state they were in at the moment they ate of it. Prior to the fall it would have retained their innocence, but right after the fall before the fullness of redemption could have been actualized in mans history, it would have been catastrophic. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on the other hand, ignited the conscience in recognizing what sin is and what it consists of, which actually comprises of both good and evil, man’s goodness potentially being the most detrimental obstruction to the life of God. This has all been further exacerbated in Adam and Eve’s case since it was through their disobedience that they came unto that knowledge. Their coming to the self knowledge of sin was only possible through their own personal sin. Thus guilt, self condemnation and fear immediately overwhelmed them, their own nakedness suddenly being recognized, and that as shameful. God, who is omniscient, knows all there is about good and evil without having once experienced evil. Only He alone has this knowledge without sin. However it was His goodness that was revealed to Adam and Eve apart from that tree, which transcends man’s goodness, since there is no shadow in Him. He created free will in both man and angel, not evil, however, it is from this true freedom that the ability to choose contrary to Him becomes a very real possibility.
Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things”.
In the original Hebrew the grammatical context for the word evil meant that God creates calamity, not evil in the spiritual sense of iniquity.
To become cognizant of good and evil means coming to a knowledge that allows you to recognize it. But the problem with Adam and Eve in their coming to this particular knowledge is that it brought forth an inhibiting dullness in their human spirit in relationship to Gods Spirit.
Self reflection is measuring done through contrasts….good and evil, right and wrong, overt or subtle comparisons between anything, self or anyone else. This is how relative righteousness can come into play. Morality is the law at play in the conscience. What ought to be, as opposed to what is.
Too much of Christianity mistakenly believes morality as being a prime essential aspect of man having been made in the image of God. It goes far deeper than that. Being made in the image of God is a derivative imprint from the essence of Gods triune unity. Many men, whether religious or not, believe having a moral light is what defines their goodness or spirituality, yet it so often unwittingly becomes the greatest hinderance for many a man from knowing the living God intimately, let alone at all. A man may have good behavioral traits of morality in their life, and though perhaps commendable to a great extent, it often ends up masking deeper motives that repels God’s truth. God looks beyond the surface of behavior and sees the heart. That is why it’s the issue of the heart that God is occupied with; it is the spiritual man that He seeks as opposed to the natural man, be he moral or not. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise.
Morality is important in terms of retaining national entity and social order in general, but it is not a secure means of attaining the kingdom of God.
Relating to good and evil is morality in of itself. Like the Law, it isn’t life, nor does it give any, but it is the basis of the human conscience determining right from wrong, all developed as a result of the fall. It may be knowledge, but it isn’t wisdom. That alone is derived from Gods word. The knowledge of good and evil is also the source whereby a great percentage of mankind’s blind spots derives from, from which human good arises. It may be that from that perspective, a contrast is made clear whereby a knowledge of evil is able to be recognized. But the problem is that this basis of knowing is premised from a perspective that is skewed from truly discerning the living God. It’s a horizontal understanding, natural, not a vertical relational based understanding. It is where morality can end up encumbering, rather than illuminating, Gods spiritual reality.
His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our own.
Adam and Eve’s understanding of Gods command was based upon the basic notion of sowing and reaping, not moral equations. It was basically a consequential effect that was to be expected if they didn’t heed their fathers words. Right and wrong was not in their vocabulary, let alone in their thought life, prior to the fall.
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January 26, 2018 at 12:02 pm
Jay:
I know you see but can’t see the folly of your way but consider this:
The Adam and Eve story is just that, a story, a made-up story and you derive from it your theological and philosophical propositions but you examine that book without any revelation of the one who authored it.
Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as Exodus, Book of Leviticus, Numbers and most of Book of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
Regardless who somebody, musing about the great questions every generation muses about, scratched his head and thought hmmm how did this, how could this, have happened?…well, there you have the opening line of fiction. In the beginning…………
And then you take everything literally such as God made man in his image
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
AND YOU ALL BUY THAT BECAUSE IT’S WRITTEN IN THE BOOK Yet
after elucidating why God did what he did for the reasons you come up with; then, you state with absolute certainty the opposite of what you just agreed to as the absolute certainty made in his image and likeness you just supported by contradicting it in the very next sentence.:
“His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our own.”
But if he created man in his image and likeness, how could that possibly be true?
It does not stand the test of secular scrutiny
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness………..”
“His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our own.”
And you agree with both sentences that contradict each other?
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January 26, 2018 at 12:39 pm
You refer to God as a he and him. Do you believe deity is a male and corporeal or a genderless incorporeal substance ie the Trinity?
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January 26, 2018 at 3:35 pm
The gender is merely patriarchal hierarchy during the period of early mythology. While their were some Goddess deities I think the power house Gods were the male version as made in the image of man.
The Life Force Sources from which all life springs is generally genderless but reference is made to male and female made h them notwithstanding that some species change gender as required by its design.
As the saying goes is some secular circles “If God exists I’d like to meet her.”
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January 26, 2018 at 3:42 pm
The Trinity is just a pigment figment of dogma colorization trying to slice the Seats of Power of Theism into pigeon holes Father, Son and Spirit to amalgamate the Caricature concept.
In much the same way mankind pigeon holes the One Global Ocean into sections like Pacific, Atlantic and Southern etc. But in reality there is only one Ocean and that is the Global Ocean.
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January 28, 2018 at 5:14 am
“I know you see but can’t see the folly of your way but consider this:
The Adam and Eve story is just that, a story, a made-up story and you derive from it your theological and philosophical propositions but you examine that book without any revelation of the one who authored it.”
Jesuspeake,
In your estimation, I take it, it is man that ultimately created the writings in the book of Genesis, let alone all the rest of scriptures. This is the common trend among secularists who never gave occasion to consider the internal consistency that exists within the scriptures, let alone understand the things actually written on its own merit, only cherry picking verses that seem to be contradictory (in their own minds) to justify their extreme bias. This “group think” mentality inhibits any real thought, let alone any true rigorous analysis of context and the facts.
Jesus Himself recognized Adam and Eve as real, literal historical beings by His very words. (Matthew 19:4-6, Mark 10:6-9, etc.). Not only that, but the Bible says he is descended from Adam and Eve. This is pertinent as affirming a record of historical veracity, unless you’re also going to question the existence or validity of the historical Jesus of Nazareth Himself, or the validity of the New Testament writers as well. The internal consistency of the scriptures is only the beginning, but it should suffice at this point since I have little time at this moment to go in-depth.
Are you ignorant of the fact that the scriptures reveals that it is the Holy Spirit that inspired men to write the scriptures, that God required more than man’s natural abilities to write down what He sought to be communicated?
“Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as Exodus, Book of Leviticus, Numbers and most of Book of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
Regardless who somebody, musing about the great questions every generation muses about, scratched his head and thought hmmm how did this, how could this, have happened?…well, there you have the opening line of fiction. In the beginning…………
And then you take everything literally such as God made man in his image
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
AND YOU ALL BUY THAT BECAUSE IT’S WRITTEN IN THE BOOK”
Not simply only because it is written, but because it becomes apparent that what is written about the good news being offered as a gift is actually true, if one is willing to receive. I had an encounter in receiving Jesus Christ as my savior. I had an internal revelation of Gods reality, this as well as the witness of the scriptures, revealing the objective truth of my experience, that it is not merely a subjective experience of the mind. Millions had this transformation from nonbeliever to believer. Historically, Saul of Tarsus had his encounter and went from being a persecutor of Christians to being a leader and a teacher among them. The reality of this can no more be disproven than one can disprove that we need air to breath.
“Yet after elucidating why God did what he did for the reasons you come up with; then, you state with absolute certainty the opposite of what you just agreed to as the absolute certainty made in his image and likeness you just supported by contradicting it in the very next sentence.:
“His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our own.”
But if he created man in his image and likeness, how could that possibly be true?
It does not stand the test of secular scrutiny
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness………..”
“His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our own.”
And you agree with both sentences that contradict each other?”
No. Just because you lack understanding in the things of God does not mean the word of God contradicts itself, or that your assessment is correct.
Man was originally made by God in His image. Nothing can take away from that. Yet, nevertheless, his thinking can become distorted by his failure to think with God. (As a man thinks, so is he….Proverbs ) Man retains the very essence of the way he was created, but because he truly has free will (an autonomous aspect of being made in His image), he can choose contrary to God, His thinking becoming self occupied apart from God. In this, his understanding became darkened. Man in his fallen state in general as a race since Adams fall became blind to the things pertaining to God. His thoughts and ways, in general since the fall, no longer aligns with Gods thoughts and ways. As in the book of judges, man did what was right in his own eyes. He still retains the ability, by Gods grace, to return to Him, but to a large extent his self will keeps him from going after His Creator. His lack in understanding is not a contradiction of his being made in Gods image, no more than the son of an honest man, deciding to rob a bank and murder people, makes him no longer his fathers biological son.
You wrote that you determine truth from “secular” scrutiny. This reveals a lot on how you determine what is truth. If your prognosis is based on a false premise that is natural, earthy and begins with man’s rationale from start to end, then your rationale is bound to be false in its assumptions in the end as well, none the wiser for it.
As far as those liberal scholars you refer to, their prognosis is rather weak and arbitrary. Many a scholar has attempted to disprove the validity and integrity of the scriptures, many in the end coming to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
It’s funny your nom de plum is “Jesus speaks”. Perhaps you should begin to heed the very words that He does speak, but without preconceived notions.
John 3:12
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January 28, 2018 at 1:06 pm
Jesus spoke of male and female regarding marriage, nothing to do with being descended from Adam and Eve.
“Nothing can take away from that.” The Prince was no more made in the image of god than the frog. Just because your ancestors claimed it, and you declare it, does not make it so.
To be sure all Christians easily admit nobody knows the mind of God and dwells in a place that no man hath seen nor can see; then, proceed to tell you everything about God and the righteousness everybody needs.
But if you cannot read the bible without supernatural eyes and with secular scrutiny like Jesus did, you may just as well read Three Blind Mice for all the good it does you. Oh you have belief but regardless of belief or how many tons of belief you have, it will always be based on ignorance because every belief’s foundation is ignorance, a house built on sand.
What’s the difference between the Spirit that guides my writing and the Spirit that guides the ancient chisel? None! I can write of righteousness and good as well as the bible writers; I can also write of evil and unrighteousness that permeates the world of believers.
Even terrorists operates on a belief system. All the Commandments are Capital offenses for disobedience; in fact, the first 4 commandments carry a death penalty for disobedience and they are but mere religious decrees. “Oh you don’t believe in our God? Stone him to death.
Jesus was a secular scrutineer and revealed that fact in almost everything he said…to the point……Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness. He is not speaking about a belief system.
Jesus was the Son of Source and revered the Source that produced him, not Adam and Eve.
Jesus used the bible more often than not to throw scriptures into the face of the hypocrites who used the scriptures to lay heavy burdens on the subjects the Clergy dominated. But never lifted a finger to help them; whatever sickness they had, whatever burden they were born with; it’s what God has delivered unto them because of their sins.
The Ancients were one bunch in an evil Cliche, the Autocracy. Paul was a murderer, grew up a murderer, practiced murder, applauded murder persecuted the followers of Jesus and more likely than not plotted Jesus crucifixion, yet every Christian quotes Paul rather than Jesus, as if Paul were the epitome of what Jesus revolutionary message was all about. It was Paul who acquiesced in the stoning death of Stephen and infiltrated the small group of followers to lead them back into the Pharisaical fold from which Jesus had already saved them.
Thank goodness for the righteousness of Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who secreted Jesus out of the tomb and eventually out of the country with his entourage, that finally took him away from the corrupt world of religion with its political egomaniacal autocrats.
It was less than 400 hundred ago that the Chief Christian among them tried and convicted Galileo for heresy and while they chose not to kill him because he recanted, they still locked him up under house arrest for the rest of his life.
Christians have been living in a Trojan horse world manned by Pharisee infiltrator saviors of the Faith………..a Faith of their own devise that Jesus tried to revolutionize.
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January 28, 2018 at 7:56 pm
“Jesus spoke of male and female regarding marriage, nothing to do with being descended from Adam and Eve.”
Jesuspeake
The verses I gave were His words that simply affirmed the literal reality, creation and existence of Adam and Eve, something you relegated to being a myth. Here, let me quote you:
“Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,”
Matthew 19:4
“But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.”
Mark 10:6
Both these verses are referencing Genesis 1:27
“So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.”
There’s no implication that this was a myth or allegory.
As far as Jesus being a descendant of Adam and Eve, read Luke 3:23-38.
I don’t know how you could be making such blatantly ignorant claims. Do you really know the scriptures? By your statements, it’s apparent that you don’t do any serious study.
“Nothing can take away from that.” The Prince was no more made in the image of god than the frog. Just because your ancestors claimed it, and you declare it, does not make it so.”
The Prince, whom I assume you mean to be Jesus Christ, was the exact image of His Father. (2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:3). If the word of God declares it, it is more valid than anyone’s personal opinion or private interpretation. God does hold His word above His name.
“To be sure all Christians easily admit nobody knows the mind of God and dwells in a place that no man hath seen nor can see; then, proceed to tell you everything about God and the righteousness everybody needs.”
Why do you persist in displaying ignorance? Do you even read the Bible to validate your claims?
When a born again believer is living in the Spirit he can discern what the mind of the lord is. (Philippians 2:5) After all he is in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus has the unction of God in knowing what His will is. True believers have His Word and the Holy Spirit, both given by God to His church to proclaim what the mind of the lord is. God speaks to us in His word through the Holy Spirit, and through the pastor/teachers that He gives. And He does answer prayer.
All scripture is inspired by God…
“But if you cannot read the bible without supernatural eyes and with secular scrutiny like Jesus did, you may just as well read Three Blind Mice for all the good it does you. Oh you have belief but regardless of belief or how many tons of belief you have, it will always be based on ignorance because every belief’s foundation is ignorance, a house built on sand.”
Faith that has substance, inspired in Gods Word, does not generate ignorance. Not if one seeks to know His mind by studying His word as the foundation and seeks to know His mind through good exegetical study and relies on His Spirit to be faithful in enlightening our understanding. If you have His Spirit, read His word and seek His will, you will have the mind of God. Philippians 3.
Having faith does not add up to being ignorant, not when it’s sustantited by sound teaching.
Without faith, you cannot please God. Faith is not a whim, but is substance when it is objectified in His Word.
“What’s the difference between the Spirit that guides my writing and the Spirit that guides the ancient chisel? None! I can write of righteousness and good as well as the bible writers;”
Well, ever since the apostles had completed writing the canon of scriptures in the first century, no one in the church has had the same level of authority in writing scripture. The inspiration to write the scriptures ended with them even though every genuine born again believer has the same access in understanding the Lord. Ever since the apostles, all genuine believers in Christ, have the ability to receive illumination in the scriptures.
“I can also write of evil and unrighteousness that permeates the world of believers.
Even terrorists operates on a belief system. All the Commandments are Capital offenses for disobedience; in fact, the first 4 commandments carry a death penalty for disobedience and they are but mere religious decrees. “Oh you don’t believe in our God? Stone him to death.
Jesus was a secular scrutineer and revealed that fact in almost everything he said…”
I’m not sure if you even realize what the word “secular” means. It denotes an attitude, activity or anything else that lacks any reference to the spiritual. Jesus was anything but secular. He was all about the substance of spiritual realities.
The letter of the law brought death. Paul revealed this clearly in the book of Romans. This is why Jesus came, to fulfill the law so that we would not have to live by it. He also died,so that we would no longer be under condemnation. It is His Spirit that gives life. Jesus came for the purpose of reconciling God the Father with man through His sacrificial work of redemption on the cross.
There is nothing wrong with living by faith so long as the object of our faith is Christ Jesus.
“to the point……Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness. He is not speaking about a belief system.”
Not exactly sure what you intended to mean with this last paragraph. I believe you are quoting John 3:11 when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, who did not understand the words that Jesus spoke pertaining to the new birth. He was speaking of spiritual realities that concerned the kingdom of God, of which Nicodemus couldn’t comprehend, since his thinking was still natural, not spiritual.
“Jesus was the Son of Source and revered the Source that produced him, not Adam and Eve.”
Jesus was the Son of the living God who in the fullness of time, became a man, incarnated for the purpose of dying for the sins of the world. Yes, God the Father is the source of all life, and Christ did come from the Father as far as being a part of the triune godhead, (who He originally was as deity), but He also became flesh, meaning that he became a man by entering the human race through the miracle of the Spirit causing human conception. Mary, who became pregnant by the Holy Spirit over shadowing her, was His earthly mother, her lineage becoming His own via the human birth. Of course the human lineage pertained only to his human aspect, not His deity. You ought to study the hypostatic union of Christ, fully man, fully God.
“Jesus used the bible more often than not to throw scriptures into the face of the hypocrites who used the scriptures to lay heavy burdens on the subjects the Clergy dominated. But never lifted a finger to help them; whatever sickness they had, whatever burden they were born with; it’s what God has delivered unto them because of their sins.”
Again, not clear who you were referring to when you stated that God delivered unto them because of their sins.
“The Ancients were one bunch in an evil Cliche, the Autocracy.”
The “ancients”? Are you by any chance referring to Satan and those in mankind who were under his authority, in religious terms?
“Paul was a murderer, grew up a murderer, practiced murder, applauded murder persecuted the followers of Jesus and more likely than not plotted Jesus crucifixion, yet every Christian quotes Paul rather than Jesus, as if Paul were the epitome of what Jesus revolutionary message was all about. It was Paul who acquiesced in the stoning death of Stephen and infiltrated the small group of followers to lead them back into the Pharisaical fold from which Jesus had already saved them.”
Wow! Your take on Paul is quite distorted. Profoundly so. You were correct to state that he was a murderer of the faithful, even condoned the stoning of Stephen, but he never “infiltrated”the followers, just to “lead them back into the pharisaical fold”. Actually, it was just the opposite. Jesus Himself was the one who stopped him on the road to Damascus, where he became converted, and commissioned him to become His servant from within the church. He became the greatest apostle, the most vital leader in the church, totally set against pharisaical legalism. God intended for the church at large to heed his words. He promoted the grace message more than anyone. His very life change in of itself revealed the work of Gods grace in such a glorious way! He doesn’t compete with the Lord, but compliments Him as His servant, called and sent by Him to the gentiles and the church at large. How you distort the truth so blatantly is beyond me. You really need to humble yourself and seek a good bible teaching local assembly that is born again. Right now you are so full of yourself, making outrageous claims that only reveals a lack of true understanding in His Word. It’s apparent that you need sound teaching.
“Thank goodness for the righteousness of Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who secreted Jesus out of the tomb and eventually out of the country with his entourage, that finally took him away from the corrupt world of religion with its political egomaniacal autocrats.”
Did you ever read about Christ’s resurrection and ascension in the gospels and the book of Acts? Jesus’s only exit from Jerusalem, let alone israel, was into heaven. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea never “secreted” Him out of the country, at least that’s not what the scriptures reveal. These are strange, non biblical claims you are making.
“It was less than 400 hundred ago that the Chief Christian among them tried and convicted Galileo for heresy and while they chose not to kill him because he recanted, they still locked him up under house arrest for the rest of his life.
Christians have been living in a Trojan horse world manned by Pharisee infiltrator saviors of the Faith………..a Faith of their own devise that Jesus tried to revolutionize.”
Yes, as far as the government hierarchy during the time of Galileo, that is a case of religious ignorance, not true spiritual discretion. As well, Galileo was a genuine believer. The religious order of his day placed him under arrest, but then again they never knew the scriptures either (typical of religious folk in power who espouse things in their ignorance). Usually those who are religious are not true believers. They usually never have true relationship with God, only a semblance of traditions, skewed knowledge of God and motives of sublimation. Actually, the scriptures supported Galileo’s postulate.
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January 28, 2018 at 8:46 pm
Sure and you believe that the genesis in Luke 3:23-38 is the genesis of the entire human race too.
Jesus was answering a question about marriage: Let me give you the question Jesus was asked…and it was not about Adam and Eve; why that reference was made was about gender not ancestry.
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? That is marriage made by sexual union not church authorization.
Jesus also was brought up in the tradition of the Jews who did not have anything to do with the Samaritans and so Jesus tried to humiliate the Samaritan woman because of the tradition but in fact the woman humiliated Jesus and embarrassed him by her retort and Jesus apologized for it. Because he referenced the tradition doesn’t mean the tradition was correct.
Jesus referenced Psalm 82 to slap a scripture in the face of the Pharisees who were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because he said he was the son of god(Source)so in fact because Jesus referenced that scripture for himself does that make us all children of the Source; well, one could argue for that, but that was not necessarily the point of the scriptural use as much as it was to slap the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who used scriptural references to support everything they did because they always preached scriptural inerrancy for themselves but not for ordinary man to use and the reason Jesus added the words…”…….and the scripture cannot be broken;……” taunting them with their own reasoning for inerrancy…..Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;……………….
You have so much to unlearn about Jesus. I read the bible like Jesus without preconceived supernatural skewing. which is unlikely you ever did because it is all a belief based notion of the paranormal raising the dead and making miracles of loves and fishes out of thin air. Who owned the safe house of Jesus. How did Jesus know it was Judas who was the betrayer and when the arrest was imminent? How did he feed the thousands on his retreats; the water into wine, sure; it’s how wine is made using water not poof poof….what was Ham’s sexual sin?, what guided the Exodus by day and by night? all supernatural events according to Christians who Know the Bible and Who Know Jesus and who Know the mind of God, the Source……smoke and mirror trickery was the invention and domain of Prophets to prove their magical connection to the God on high.
You probably grew up believing in Santa Claus too and probably teach your kids the bogus supernaturalism about that as well. I didn’t grow up with that; I proved all things and held fast that which was true.
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January 29, 2018 at 6:14 pm
“Sure and you believe that the genesis in Luke 3:23-38 is the genesis of the entire human race too.”
Luke 3:23-38 was specifically referencing the lineage of Jesus. The entire human race did begin with Adam and Eve, but, obviously, all family trees branched off in its various ways throughout all generations, especially through Noah’s children.
By the way, why is this such a difficult issue for you?
“Jesus was answering a question about marriage: Let me give you the question Jesus was asked…and it was not about Adam and Eve; why that reference was made was about gender not ancestry.
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? That is marriage made by sexual union not church authorization.”
Of course the Pharisees’s question was about marriage and divorce, and Jesus’s reply to them incorporated the fact that God’s original intent for the marriage Union was revealed as far back as when God created the first man and woman. Jesus simply laid out the importance of the marriage Union by referring to a union that was to be prototypical for all later generations. [In other words, He was revealing God’s original intention for marriage since the beginning.] In using this example as a model, He was seeking for His argument to carry weight, that it had to be an established historical fact that to many Jews living in the first century, was a given. They, for the most part, believed the literal interpretation of the scriptures. Thus, this element of the first man and woman being a historical fact is the perspective that added weight to His argument, affirming that a marriage Union was extremely important to God, all the while affirming that Adam and Eve were historical figures.
It would seem, however, that for whatever reason you are clinging to, you seek to deny the literal historicity of Adam and Eve. Perhaps you believe in evolution?
“Jesus also was brought up in the tradition of the Jews who did not have anything to do with the Samaritans and so Jesus tried to humiliate the Samaritan woman because of the tradition but in fact the woman humiliated Jesus and embarrassed him by her retort and Jesus apologized for it. Because he referenced the tradition doesn’t mean the tradition was correct.”
Are you saying that God in the flesh was embarrassed? You mean that He made a mistake? I’m sure since He knows the hearts of men and all future events as the Father revealed it to Him, let alone being perfect, He wasn’t surprised by her reply, nor embarrassed. He actually was correct in what He originally said about His coming especially for His people, yet as cruel as it may have seemed at first, He was actually testing her faith response to the fact that God also did promise blessings for the gentiles as well. He is not sentimental, but His Love is deep and rich. Besides, the language doesn’t reveal any apology on His part.
“Jesus referenced Psalm 82 to slap a scripture in the face of the Pharisees who were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because he said he was the son of god(Source)so in fact because Jesus referenced that scripture for himself does that make us all children of the Source; well, one could argue for that, but that was not necessarily the point of the scriptural use as much as it was to slap the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who used scriptural references to support everything they did because they always preached scriptural inerrancy for themselves but not for ordinary man to use and the reason Jesus added the words…”…….and the scripture cannot be broken;……” taunting them with their own reasoning for inerrancy…..Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;……………….
And your point with all this?
“You have so much to unlearn about Jesus.”
I have much more to learn and grow in Jesus, but thus far, I don’t think it would be prosperous for me to relearn spiritual matters from someone like you. Nothing personal, but it is quite evident that you consistently ignore plain teaching from the scripture, your insular relationship with Christ giving you a presumptuous mindset that blocks any reasonableness for any soundness or understanding. Over the years I have sought God with all my heart, mind and very being to be certain I wasn’t living in some private interpretation of the truth. And some of the statements from you makes me alarmed.
“I read the bible like Jesus without preconceived supernatural skewing.”
Thus far, it seems you’re pretty much reading the Bible with your own private interpretation, making bold statements that are inaccurate and a bit delusional.
“which is unlikely you ever did because it is all a belief based notion of the paranormal raising the dead and making miracles of loves and fishes out of thin air.”
Well, if the scriptures cannot be broken, then raising the dead and the miracles of the loaves and fishes must have been true, since the writers that God chose testified to those very things as being authentic.
“Who owned the safe house of Jesus.”
Not sure what you mean by the “safe house” of Jesus.
“How did Jesus know it was Judas who was the betrayer and when the arrest was imminent?
He was always submitted to His Father who continually revealed all things to Him.
“How did he feed the thousands on his retreats; the water into wine, sure; it’s how wine is made using water not poof poof….”
Poof poof? God could very well have created something from nothing, but it’s evident He chose to do certain miracles in a certain way at certain times that served His purpose. Again, not sure what your point is in saying this though.
If you think I don’t believe in miracles, there again, you are wrong.
“what was Ham’s sexual sin?, what guided the Exodus by day and by night? all supernatural events according to Christians who Know the Bible and Who Know Jesus and who Know the mind of God, the Source……”
So your point?
“smoke and mirror trickery was the invention and domain of Prophets to prove their magical connection to the God on high.”
I take it your referring to false prophets?
“You probably grew up believing in Santa Claus too and probably teach your kids the bogus supernaturalism about that as well. I didn’t grow up with that; I proved all things and held fast that which was true.”
Nope, never believed in the fat guy. But don’t let that stop from being presumptuous, since that seems what you’re content in doing.
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April 12, 2018 at 3:15 am
I have question I hope someone here might throw some light onto OR extinguish the thought completely 🙂 🙂
“There are two views as to why Adam’s guilt should be seen by God as also belonging to us. The first view states that the human race was within Adam in seed form; thus when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham (Genesis 14:20; Hebrews 7:4-9), even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later.
The other main view is that Adam served as our representative and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well. However, how can God hold us accountable for a sin we did not personally commit? (Ezekiel 18: 20)
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
Neither of these are satisfactory as to how we acquire Adam’s nature but….
Question:
Is it possible the knowledge of good and evil is what is inherited in that such knowledge brings conflict to the soul via a clash between ego or selflessness e.g. the love of God against love of self, what is good for one’s neighbour or one’s own good.
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April 21, 2018 at 8:06 pm
God placed the tree in the Garden. God is the one who decides what is good and what is evil. The concept of evil came from him. He is the author of the story. He is the potter making both honorable and dishonorable vessels.
It appears pretty straight forward that neither human knew good or evil. They were just experiencing consciousness through there surroundings, but there would be know way to really know good without being able to have the contrast. The fact is that once they experienced the evil, ( sin), they conversely came to know that what they had been experiencing was in fact the good.
We have only the knowledge of evil , as we have never experienced true goodness. The possibility of uninterrupted harmony , tranquility and piece. In fact we call what is bad good right now.
After they ate they knew that with each birth ,(what we call life), came a death sentence…thus the shame of their nakedness and the need to hide their genitals with fig leaves.
God knew what would happen and thus placed the tree in its appropriate position and cued the entrance of the serpent. If that was not the case then he is not an all knowing God, (omniscient). In fact if this exact equation did not play out as it thus has not one of us would be here today…we are products of this equation = Adam and Eve sinning.
No free will…it is only Gods will that matters and it is his will that is being worked out. He subjected all creation to futility and he did so on the basis of hope. The hope that he will fix the mess he created Romans 8: 20,21.
It is history and he is the one who has set the stage and created the actors. He knew from the beginning who would be the firstfruit , the second and each in there own order. He is creating consciousness . He chooses where we will be born and to whom and what our life path will be . He has positioned each obstacle and reward exactly where it needs to be to keep us moving where he has designated we go. Every person we intersect with effects us and we them and even the smallest event is calculated into the equation. Micro and macro it all is linked to him.
There is no knowledge that does not come from him and there is no power that is attained without his blessing…read Job, yes the satan had to get his power to test Job from the almighty himself.
Right now we know an evil god and he will remain such until the day we know what Adam and eve knew before they ate the fruit of that tree. We however will know in reverse ; the evil first then the good and it will truly be good as it will be uninterruptible by death since death will have been done away with . Then that first human pair will sigh with relief, freed by a ransom that was justly paid on behalf of those who had no choice, but to bring us forth and do the will of God.
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April 21, 2018 at 8:33 pm
In order for choices to exist,opposition must exist, sweet and sour, good and evil, etc. And so must freedom. We also have to ask ourselves the purpose of creation and where did mankind’s will come from Here are some thoughts on the subject. http://endlesstimeandspace.blogspot.hu/2011/07/moral-agency-free-will-and-existence-of.html?m=1
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April 21, 2018 at 8:50 pm
Lynn & Charlie:
Here are a few basic thoughts about good and evil that comes right from your bible and when it was recognized; not by Adam and Eve but by the writer of Genesis.
If forgiveness is for something wrongly done then one needs to find what it is that was wrongly done. Enter the Bible
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
—————————————————————————-
And yet we find in the very next chapter of the bible what was wrongly done that affects everyone and everybody, everywhere on earth. Talk about creating a marketing audience for your services.
THEY BECAME ONE FLESH:
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Does anybody in their right sane mind think this narrative is about anything other than sexuality? In other words, the very essence that perpetuates life, sexual union in the early Genesis verses of scripture, thoroughly tarnished and stained life itself; hence, humanity, as shameful. Remember there were only two humans, male and female, the author of Genesis mentions in the earliest Genesis chapters.
Is it any wonder then why the Corporate Religious Collective (six in all) is among the wealthiest entities in the world? Second only to Charitable Organizations sandwiched by Educational Institutions in Third place, the Companies Entity is Fourth and the Fourth wealthiest is led by the 7 top World Banks? Apple is Fifth.
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April 21, 2018 at 9:17 pm
I think knowing good and evil refers to understanding more than and less than. I believe it is coming to experience the concept of covetousness that was the root of the fall. The bility to be dissatisfied with the place and the provision of God in our lives. Desiring more than what God has provided for us.
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April 21, 2018 at 10:16 pm
Charlie:
Just for clarity sweet and sour are not opposites because we have four taste sensations: sweet, salty, sour and bitter. That’s primarily how we make taste choices in the mouth. The olfactory sense compliments a wider choice of tastes. The human nose can detect at least 1 trillion odors.
A good experiment of the role of olfactory system, hold your nose close with your thumb and finger and place a small finger-touch of soap in your mouth. You will taste a slight sweet taste but release your nose and your facial expression will suddenly show your recognition of soap, not from the taste but from the smell sensation, that will release the hidden sensations that taste and smell together magnify..
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April 21, 2018 at 10:33 pm
Dave Tomlinson:
If you believe in the creation of two people that started the human race which is a pretty big stretch. Adam and Eve, were they created as children pre-puberty, during puberty, post puberty or as full adults already knowing such things as covetousness, dissatisfaction, passion, attraction, desires, sexual urges, emotions; in other words, since each of us is a human being, did Adam within himself already have the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all? Would Adam, have needed only to consult his own soul to find every trait of character and every twist of emotion to react to any situation without a learning process?
Did he already know how to walk or did he have to learn by dangling and flailing his legs, crawling, standing, toddling, walking, running and so on?
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April 21, 2018 at 11:06 pm
Excuse my lack of clarity. I did mean to say bitter. What about happiness and sadness? Are they opposing states of emotion? How about health and sickness? Do they oppose each other as states of being? Can you know one without the other. Perhaps pleasure and pain? Can we identify them as contrasting terms and experiences?
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April 22, 2018 at 7:27 am
Charlie:
Yes I understand what you are saying about contrasts and opposites and yes those are known through the learning cycle. Not everything though are mere opposites; some things, what we normally call opposites are more absences than opposites because what we sometimes call opposites in language sometimes do not exist in and of themselves.
For examples the most obvious is light/dark; darkness is not something that exists on its own. Light is something that exists, the absence of which we conveniently call dark instead of “no light”. I may come off as picky sometimes but that is my own lack of clarity at times.
So let’s try to view communications without thinking that what is meant as edification or knowledge is mean spirited. Sometimes our defenses naturally rise if we think people are trying to put us down which is really the inferred opposite of someone trying to build us up. It’s a psychological defense mechanism and quite normal but occasionally it interfere with good intentions, so please excuse my lack of clarity and we’ll both be on a level playing field.
Take care. I wish you only well and good intentions.
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April 22, 2018 at 8:14 am
We know Good and we know when “Good is missing”; we call “Good is missing” as the evil opposite when the reality is “essence” versus “absence of essence”.
We see the colors of flowers as the visible light (spectral colours) flowers reflect. The color of an object or material is determined by the wavelengths it absorbs and those it reflects. An object has the color of the wavelengths it reflects. A material that reflects all wavelengths of visible light appears white. A material that absorbs all wavelengths of visible light appears black. A green lime absorbs most wavelengths but reflects green, so the lime looks green and so on.
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June 28, 2018 at 12:10 pm
man was created in the image of God in the real sense, meaning mans physical body looks like Gods spiritual body. the Apostle Paul speaks of heavnly bodies in the Bible which means God has a Spiritual body. so in the case how humans are structured is how God is structured. man only became like God in knowledge only after he ate from the tree of knowledge, meaning that prior before this Adam was programmed like an animal that obeys only a few instructions. And the only instruction to obey for him was not to eat from the tree of knowledge. what iam trying to say is Adam was just like a monkey which doesnt see its not wearing.
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June 28, 2018 at 5:51 pm
Felix:
1. Of all the creatures on earth only man wears clothes.
2. Paul talked a lot about what he believed because he didn’t know anything.
3. The God that our neighbors believe in, is essentially an invisible person, is
a creator deity, who created the universe to have a relationship with one
species of primate. And he’s got galaxy upon galaxy to attend to but he’s
especially concerned with what we do, and he’s especially concerned with
what we do when naked. Lucky us. sharris
That essentially sums up ancient man and his idea that if there was a God and ancient man was not him then he, ancient man, must be God’s messenger to tell the rest of us how to live, what to eat, when to eat, what clothes to wear, who to love, when to love, how to love, who to hate, who to kill, when to go to war, what to do on Sunday; and , ancient man’s children have been telling the rest of us the same thing ever since. (: ( :
Then Jesus came along and told ancient man he was doing everything wrong and they crucified him to shut him up so’s he would stop stepping on their toes wearing their well heeled shoes paid for by the rest of us commoners.
Amen
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June 28, 2018 at 8:34 pm
God said they have BECOME LIKE ONE of Us KNOWING good and evil. He didn’t say they have BECOME LIKE Us. What if that ONE of Us God is referring to is JESUS, the Second Person of the Trinity who experienced evil (separation from God) on the cross when the sins of all humanity was imputed to Him and He cried out My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. To KNOW in the spirit realm means to become like. The Word of God says Him who KNEW no sin BECAME sin for us. Just some food for thought.
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June 28, 2018 at 8:35 pm
Many if not most mainstream Christians follow a similar narrative on creationism. It goes something like this according to their professors of religion.
There is a single triune Deity in heaven. The first cause of all things. For no particular reason it created an infinite heaven with galaxies, solar systems, stars and planets galore just to populate a small garden setting on a very large world with some new creatures.
About 6000 years ago two humans and some animals were placed there to provide fellowship for the Trinity after eons of a solitary existence it had reach a point of boredom beyond its capacity.
Somewhere in space, It, they, (the Trinity) had tried creating angels in the past and one of them ended up becoming a devil along with many others.
For some reason, it must have seemed like a good idea to put the main devil in the Garden of Eden with the new innocent people along with a tree that could kill them. Mainstream theologians act as if this were a strange game of chance, a form of Russian roulette and act shocked because what they think shouldn’t have happened did occur.
The mainstream scholars teach that this paradise occupied by two innocent immortal beings was supposed to be permanent.
If they could only explain how living in a static garden paradise in a state of ignorance and innocence with the devil forever tempting mankind to eat the one bad fruit would be a preferred condition of eternal existence would be interesting to hear.
Trinitarians blame Adam and Eve and the devil for all of the problems of humanity. The fallen world did not have to happen and should not have happened they say. Under their reasoning, the first two humans would still be in the Garden trying to resist the temptation to do the one bad thing they were not supposed to do, and none of the rest of us would be here.
They essentially teach that the fall was the worst possible outcome and was not a part of God’s plan.
The one thing that led to their fall, the only thing the devil could apparently tempt them to do, partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil no longer exists. After Adam and Eve ate, the Gods commented that man had now become like them.
How is it that the God’s had this knowledge of good and evil if sin and evil did not exist before Adam’s transgression? Satan obviously had it before that. Did it exist among the Gods before Satan came to be as well? Yes it did if you believe the Bible.
Why did they, the God’s (Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father) place Adam and Eve where they could get this knowledge so they could become like them? God obviously wanted them to have it.
If the fall was negative and not supposed to happen as the Christian biblical scholars claim, why did God clearly establish the means for it to happen? The stage was such that a fall was guaranteed. This life, the way it is, is exactly the will and plan of God. To think otherwise is to deny his power and wisdom.
If there hadn’t been a fall there wouldn’t be a Christ. In fact, there wouldn’t be any Christians to save at all or a Bible for that matter? How is this not plain to any logical thinking, Bible reading person?
Why would anyone, especially people that call themselves Christians, think that God didn’t want the history of this world to have his Son as the central means of redemption? Instead, traditional mainstream Christians make Jesus a back up plan, a reaction to the fall, a plan B.
Wouldn’t the viewpoint that the fall was a bad thing, or that it was not God’s initial plan actually be the NON-Christian perspective? To say the fall was a bad thing is contradictory to the gospel of Jesus Christ and an illogical position for a Christian to take.
Adam and Ever were chosen for their position as our first parents. They were also this world’s first Christians.
Jesus Christ is the gateway and the only way to exaltation and eternal lives. This was always the plan. The Garden setting was the means to implement the plan, without mankind being forced to accept the opposition and suffering inherent in mortality. It was a voluntary choice albeit with some adversarial influence. It was also our choice to come here as their seed before we were ever born.
The immortal corruptible bodies first given to Adam and Eve were not to fulfill their eternal potential and destiny. That is done through grace and mercy offered by Jesus Christ and and his atonement. When resurrected by the power of Christ our bodies will be incorruptible. We will inherit all powers and eternal blessings inherent in the covenants we make and keep. .
http://endlesstimeandspace.blogspot.com/2018/05/the-problem-of-evil-suffering-and.html?m=1
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June 28, 2018 at 9:27 pm
PaT:
Ever wonder how many Gods there were when Genesis talked in the plural like….. man has become like “one of us”?….
Well actually nobody knows that because nobody was there to hear God for one thing and the second thing God doesn’t talk to anybody either.
So we know Genesis is mostly just a fairytale of man’s imagination and that man was not Adam either; it was thousands of years later when Moses wrote the first Cinderella story about the Garden of Eden.
How quaint that people in this day and age still hold on to their story like a teddy bear security blanket.
Oh well…..
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June 28, 2018 at 10:12 pm
Charlie:
That’s a good description of man’s modern day mythology rivaling Zeus and other mythologies from Greek Gods and Roman Gods and every people and nation’s God all over the world as humanity tries to stretches its collective imagination to come up with any story that seems to satisfy the unknown but the truth is believe never satisfies the unknown, the only thing that satisfies the unknown is knowledge.
As soon as humanity starts becoming as old as trees and older we’ll get closer to knowledge faster where now it takes a hundred to go from horseback to horseless carriages and a hundred years to start using clean energy to propel them. Just look at the advances from radio to television, from black and white to colour and radio from mono to stereo.
Sixty years and a lifetime for much of the population people..I’ll take another 60 years and marvel when the next advances increase longevity by hundreds of years with good health and muscle, mind and vision acuity, disease recession and wow look at us go in our no hands cars flying all over the place on air highways.
Oh the wonder of the imagination when it worms its way into the future with pioneering zeal….when the Trumps and Putins and Assads have waned and ego, emotion and pleasure appeased and disciplines early for youth allowing unharnessed brain power that supplants brawn and the new challenges open the sluice of innovation and the children like fledglings rejoice yet again bouncing away in the new playful, peaceful, paradise life was designed to be. aaaahhhhhhhhh
Those will be the days when the mankind’s motto will be: “as I have planned so will it be; as I have purposed, so it will stand.”
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July 20, 2018 at 11:39 am
My guess is that Adam and Eve were of low intelligence and therefore destined to fail. I mean, why put a tree like that there in the first place other than to test them (AKA mess with their heads) on the matter of obedience? If this is the case then perhaps we would have been better off as robots since being obedient is the primary function of a robot. There is no room for free will when obedience is the order of the day. Perhaps there should have been parameters set within our nature as to always be obedient to our master creator.
Perhaps it is not our fault that we were created flawed and so easily sway to messing up in such a profound manner. Adam and Eve were humanity 1.0, kind of like a practise run. Idiots they were.
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July 20, 2018 at 6:04 pm
Robin:
What you describe is Evolution…we were born idiots and then we progressed, some faster than others. Much of the world is still populated and governed by idiots.
But you have to understand the Genesis story.
The Genesis Story is not a story of creation or evolution; the story of good and evil is about mankind’s strongest functioning drive after the natural reflexes – grasping, clutching, fear, sucking etc……..and that is the later driving force….. sexuality………
Because sexuality affects every human being and every life-form on the planet, it is the single most commonality through which sin can and does cloak its veil over the whole world. And religious men of every corner, not the least of which are the BIg 3 Religions from the stem of Abraham, have exploited sexuality as the harbinger from which all guilt will and must emanate from, since the beginning of time, PUBESCENCE; AKA, The Tree of Knowledge and the uncontrollable urges the awakening visits upon the human race ever since: before and after, David and Bathsheba.
After all, although it was not only Christianity, Christianity post CE, has led the parade, with its heartfelt resentment against life, that first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw filth on the origin, on the essential fact of our life. neitzsche
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July 29, 2018 at 6:17 pm
A link to a recently completed study on this question..
https://www.academia.edu/36928955/A_Theocentric_Interpretation_of_הדעת_טוב_ורע_The_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil_as_the_Knowledge_for_Administering_Reward_and_Punishment
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October 28, 2018 at 8:03 am
I am not able to go very in depth into my response, but I feel that the phrasing of “good and evil” are a pairing, so that Adam & Eves had experiencial knowledge of good from having a relationship with God, but only a cognitive knowledge of evil; after the fall they gained the experiencial knowledge & therefore the knowledge of the pairing of “good and evil.” In other words, the fruit gave them the experiencial knowledge of how good and evil are together and the relationship that the opposing sides have.
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October 28, 2018 at 5:36 pm
Hello Michael:
Good question.
Genesis is the perfect place to start a Christian search for new Christians looking for baby advice on their search for baby truth but the impetative here must be: void being sidetracked by baby belief regardless of how simple it may sound and seem to soenone with a belief system to give you all the answers they don’t know.
Genesis is even a great place to begin a re-NEW-ed search by regular, run of the mill, believe-everything-you’re-told-Christians whose belief is the only thing that makes sense to them anymore. The problem with that is, they have become too complacent, apathetic or lazy to think for themselves anymore and their “suspension of disbelief” needs to be suspended, substituted and regenerated by some old fashion, reasoned, common sense and let knowledge be their guide instead of somebody else’s belief system.
Okay so let’s get started.
First thing we need to establish: Adam and Eve are caricature concepts. In other words, Adam and Eve are the absolute metaphors at the “once upon a time” beginning, before we were born and from whom we ought to be able to reasonably glean some semblance of answers the great questions that arise in every generation, demand.
The great questions simply put are: Where, What, Who, Why, When and How in the world did everybody on earth got birthed. So Adam and Eve are imaginative metaphors on a journey to discover the answers to the great questions about the journey we are on. And Adam and Eve are widely substitutional caricatures for not only Man and Woman but those characters we call Father and Mother, Mom and Dad. The Patriarch and Matriarch of the Human Family.
Now imagine for a moment you awoke one day and the task fell to you to give the rest of us the answers to those great questions. How would you start? Where would you begin? Well, in all probablility, the very first thing you would most likely do, is what anybody to whom that challenge fell would most likely do, is find a “Start Point” so the starting point would have to be youself and from there you would start a backward journey of discovery, by reason, by cultural stories, a search of ancestry and the ancestral story and what they left to posterity.
But you would need to get a lot more specific than those generalities before you could start the exploration because there is something much more fundamental than cultural ancestry and ancestral stories you need to know; and that is, the answers to the great questions of what where when who why and how about your Genesis and now you can begin your journey with knowledge and the starting point of that piece of knowledge is a simple three letter word Sex.
I can go on……..
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December 25, 2018 at 9:51 am
David is my name about Adam and Eve knowing or not knowing Good before coming to know Good and Evil The ability to think and understand thought for action we can safely say that they possess these abilities now before they did what they was told not to do everything they thought and did was Good I say this because at first doing what God said and not eating off the tree of Good and Evil as it was called we now know how to distinguish between the two because they did eat off the tree they discover that they already knew Good that is what happen that day they add Evil when they add Evil the realization of already knowing Good and not having the knowledge of Evil now they knew Good and Evil was added with the addition of Evil they learned that everything about them was Good so now they know Evil THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
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December 25, 2018 at 10:37 am
David Hester-Bey
Nothing personal; lack of knowledge has been missing ever since Genesis but the fruit of the tree was supposed to give knowledge..but it didn’t.
All you are doing in your post is saying what Genesis says…Tell me about the tree, what kind of tree was it? What kind of fruit was on the tree, grapes and its intoxicating properties. Most fruit bearing trees have the same natural intoxicating effects when they shed their fruit it ferments naturally.
You and countless other Christians talk over and over and over again about the bones of the “tree and evil and the fruit” but try to put some meat on dem bones and use your imagination like children have to do when you tell them fantasy stories about Santa Claus. If you repeat Genesis which answers none of the questions I asked; well, you may just as well recite Three Blind Mice for all the good repeating words that have no meaning do.
Repeating the literal words of Genesis does nothing, solves nothing and adds nothing to the conversation without your ideas about meanings. Is the spider weaving a web, catching the fly and sucking the fly’s life from the inside out evil? Is the spider good and the fly evil or the lion better than the animals they eat?
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December 25, 2018 at 10:45 am
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January 10, 2019 at 4:02 pm
GOD is good all the time.
They only knew Good because they knew GOD, and having one choice was alright,
then they decided to know evil which is satan and sins. now they have 2 choices
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February 24, 2019 at 6:34 am
They may not have known good and evil but they knew love. they loved the Lord their God was all their hearts as themselves. If we could follow this one commandment we would be like God. Good is a word we created so we could define less evil.
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August 3, 2019 at 2:53 am
Buddhism gives a great insight into the underlying concept. As a Buddhist your practice is to refrain from becoming attached to or repulsed by any aspect of life. You try to simply accept all life as it is. Getting attached to “Good” means heartache when that thing is lost. Being too obsessed with avoiding “Bad” leads to stress and anxiety, not to mention how easily such thoughts can go too far and lead us to be judgemental and mean spirited. So Buddhists try and just stay calm and rested on that middle ground. They accept that feelings will come and go. The aim is to become accepting of most everything, to see all of life as more or less the same. After all, God looked at ALL that he created and said it was “Good”. Not some good and some bad. He said it was just “Good”. The sin therefore comes from not just disobeying God, but in fact by gaining this knowledge and thus becoming a being capable of judgement. All of a sudden Adam and Eve are thinking things are good and bad, with no certainty that their judgement is even correct. They think nakedness is bad but just minutes earlier it was fine. This leads them to fear. But God makes no such judgement on nakednesd. So all of a sudden the humans are thinking they know better than God, second guessing his perfect judgement of “Good”. We still do it today. It’s not hard to see how this gets us into trouble and is in so many ways the root of everything that we struggle with. Knowing good and evil is a heavy burden and one that God actually didn’t want us to have to bear. Now every human has to live with the struggle, and if they don’t fully believe in God then of course they suffer all the more. Our own minds actively separate us from God, sabotaging that relationship with suggestions and ideas, fears and desires, judgements and criticisms. We forget the simple truth that the world as he created is “Good” and instead spend our days analysing everything in a desperate effort to understand it all.
Every moment we face the same choice as Adam and Eve. We can choose to trust God because he knows best, or we can second guess him and seek answers in our own flawed minds. This is every decision in our lives. It happens a thousand times or more a day. It’s not just one original sin, it’s THE original sin that we repeat over and over again, every time we seek to judge the world rather than accept God’s good creation. And until we turn away from this and truly, fully and utterly trust in God, like to the point where we allow ourselves to be nailed to a cross to die without resisting or giving up our love, then we are still committing that sin.
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August 5, 2019 at 7:13 am
If God didn’t want us to bear the knowledge of good and evil, why did he make that option available? If you assume he was all-knowing and all-powerful in a way where he acts on a whim there would be no reason to establish an opposing option or choice. He could have simply eliminated Satan and not put a tree there or given a commandment not to partake of it. You miss the point and fact that God was acting for a greater reason. You are assuming that our current situation is not God’s will. If this life and mortality are not God’s will, then whose will is it that we are here like we are?
The creation of the earth, of man and woman and the garden setting were not the acts of a God acting in a random way. If you assume that this was the first time creation of an eternal God you place some serious limits on the power and purposes of his actions. Without opposing choices Adam and Eve may as well have been put in a cage because they would not have known any different. The Eden setting was God’s orchestration of the fall. It was his will that they choose to fall. If you think otherwise, you must not be a Christian.
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August 5, 2019 at 3:35 pm
God only gave one commandment to Adam and Eve and it was undoubtedly clear: do not eat from these trees. I can’t see any ambiguity there. The issue only gets confusing if we start going down the road of proposing that every single moment of life in the universe is under God’s control and purposeful will. In an absolute sense I suppose that is true but in relative terms, the terms that are important to us and the choices we make, it’s a moot point. God gave Adam and Eve a choice, but he made it very clear that eating the fruit was forbidden. That’s not an arbitrary test of obedience, there is surely more to it, and that’s the subject of this discussion. It seems unreasonable that God would create humans without this knowledge, command them not to seek it by eating from the tree (it’s a metaphor of course) but secretly intended for humans to none the less have that knowledge all along. That’s a convoluted interpretation that can only be supported by the tiresome cliche that “God works in mysterious ways”. In that case we might as well just shut up and stop thinking about it at all.
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August 5, 2019 at 4:32 pm
Actually I don’t think God works in mysterious ways at all. He works with the principle of moral agency in mind, that is the freedom to choose and act. Why else would he create a species in his image?
Without agency and choice mankind would be like all of the other animals. That was not God’s intended purpose. As you stated “there is surely be more to it.”
God did intend the fall and it had to be on the basis of man’s choosing, otherwise he would be forcing them into a state of suffering. Choosing to be subject to the knowledge of good and evil and sin and death was done with the redemption foreordained in Jesus Christ in mind.
If you don’t think the fall was God’s will then you make Jesus a back up plan, a plan B. You mislabel the the conversation when you say God said one thing but secretly wanted another outcome. The point that most miss is that partaking of the fruit wasn’t moral sin. God set the commandment and the punishment according to his eternal objectives. It was his will that they have offspring which they couldn’t do before the fall.
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August 5, 2019 at 5:20 pm
You’re right on one thing, I’m not what you would call a “Christian” in so much as I don’t buy into a significant amount of Catholic interpretation. So I can see that we are on different tangents. I don’t subscribe to this notion that God has some grand plan or eternal objective, that the fate of the universe is laid out for us. Part of my struggle with Catholicism is the obsession with infallibility, that neither God nor the Church can be “wrong” or less than absolute. I am very comfortable with a God that created the universe and more or less leaves it to it’s own devices. I am also very comfortable with a God that created human beings and gave them a choice without knowing for sure that they would choose to seek knowledge. It’s a razor’s edge that makes who and what we are quite remarkable. I mention Buddhism because those practitioners are a great demonstration of just how close to Jesus any average human being can become. They show that a life of “sin” is in no way inevitable and that the responsibility rests entirely with us. God exists to Buddhists not as a personal being that knows or decides our fate, but instead an internal but latent capacity for infinite greatness, that we need only seek out to experience. That latent capacity guides Buddhists the same way that an internal experience of a personal God might guide others (although I do not specifically speak for anyone but myself, I am philosophising in a general sense only).
However my ultimate point remains just the same: original sin is not something from the past that we all suffer because of, it’s something we still do in each and every moment. Right now, in this moment, every one of us can choose to seek knowledge or we can choose to trust in God. We can try and figure out right and wrong, good and bad, on our own terms in our own minds, or we can trust that the world God has created is still “Good” and that we simply don’t need to worry. It’s precisely the same choice Adam and Eve had. It is not their sin, passed on to us as a legacy, it is OUR sin and remains that way until we choose to turn away from it. We are not shackled by it in any permanent sense, but each time we choose knowledge it takes hold of us that little bit more. The consequences for them are the same for us: death. Not literal, but death in so much as what life is like when you turn away from God.
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July 8, 2020 at 11:37 pm
back together
What was the “knowledge of good and evil” Adam and Eve gained after the Fall? | Theo-sophical Ruminations
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April 15, 2021 at 1:59 pm
I believe that fallen mankind is capable of making free will choices to accept or reject the gospel message. I believe in the inherent free will ability of fallen unsaved mankind to accept/believe or reject God’s call/drawing/convicting/convincing/persuading teaching work using the creation, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 1:18-20; Rom. 10:8-17; 1Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12; Luke 8:21; Jn. 15:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:13).
I believe that unsaved fallen mankind has a corrupted bipolar spiritual nature of good and evil (one pole is good and the other pole is evil, both pulling on our wills), not a single poled fallen nature of evil, produced in Adam and Eve (as Calvinists and Arminians teach) when they sinned by disobeying God’s command that condemns fallen mankind, and this fallen bipolar spiritual nature of good and evil is what internally drives mankind to do good and evil (at the discretion of their free wills) and also gives mankind an inherent internal knowledge of good and evil. Calvinist’s teach that fallen mankind has only an inherent single poled spiritual nature of evil that does not move/drive men and women to do good.
My limited knowledge of early Christian history, so far, has led me to conclude that when the early Christians concluded that fallen mankind had only one single poled spiritual nature of evil, the door was opened for pagan unconditional determinism and unconditional predestination to be easily injected into Christianity (by saying man lost his free will capacity to choose good or evil when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) ultimately resulting in the development of an anemic puppeteering, bipolar good and evil spiritual nature of God concept in Calvinism/Augustinian-ism soteriology.
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November 23, 2021 at 11:42 am
If you were given everything, you didn’t have to towl, just eat and sleep, if sleeping was apart of Adam and Eve’s lives? I say this because life was given, God does not slumber, just a thought, anyways everything is yours no need at all except what needs God gave man fruit to consume, anyways if all you knew was God coming around and walking with you what is there to fear, to worry about, what is there you could do to make anything, anything but what it was, God took Adam before Eve was and had him name the animals, so he knew that, what else was he needing to know about them, he has no control, only what God has given, now if he was told to pet and brush them I’m sure that’s what he did, other wise what else is there, nothing unless God gave them knowledge about it, for God gives knowledge, so Adam delt with the animals, yet he was alone he had no mate as the animals, so God said because Adam because there’s nothing suitable amongst the animals that God would make a mate for Him, so Eve comes from his own body his rib, so ask yourself was Eve told not to eat of the tree of good and evil? Did Adam tell her or God, it comes up when she’s talking with the serpent, besides everything if you look at it all God didn’t deal with Man until Noah, man had become so wicked, what was it they were doing, probably sexually issues and drunkenness and murder thanks to Cain, it seems to me they just lived as they felt, what was pleasing and pleasurable, there was no real instructions S what to do or not to do, but if I look at it all in a spiritual realm, I’d say who’s the god of this worldly system and its influence, that whisper in the ear did God really say, its taking over thousands of years before the 21st century knowledge has been given man to become industrial running to and fro upon the face of the Earth to flying abd space adventure, so what ever we know know is beyond Creation, man has crested his own tower to heaven, I think as time went and spirits are able to influence Man, morales are just trying to be good, no one is good, or never will be, even being born again we still have the will to sin or not sin, before being Born again we just sinned,
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August 16, 2022 at 8:01 pm
In the Genesis passage where God said of man “knowing good and evil” after eating of the fruit of TKGE, I tend to believe that God uses a figure of speech, irony as Calvin puts it. A simple reason is appropriate. One must keep in mind that God doesn’t tell Adam that by eating of the fruit from the TKGE, they will know good and evil. On the contrary it was the devil who make such proposal to Eve. But the Lord Jesus says of Satan, “there is no truth in him, he is the father of lies”, so much so that whatever the devil says are lies, every utterance of the devil serves one purpose: to decieve, that is, to destroy. Positively speaking knowledge does not proceed from evil. In the same sense, evil or lies does not bring knowledge.Knowledge always is concern with God’s truth and has nothing to do with lies. In this I am satisfied.
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September 21, 2022 at 5:22 am
[…] What was the “knowledge of good and evil” Adam and Eve gained after the Fall? […]
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November 7, 2022 at 5:10 pm
I just found this blog. I find it interesting that the knowledge of good and evil could only come through comitting sin. The bible says God declared things good, but did Adam and Eve actually know creation was good? Could it be that the fruit gave them a conscience and before hand God himself was their conscience. I have way more thoughts but just keeping it short.
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November 26, 2022 at 2:26 pm
First God didn’t tell Eve about the tree, Adam did. He added by saying if you TOUCH IT, or eat it you will surely die. God told the fish and birds to multiply but not the animals. Eve had only seen sweetness and goodness from the animals. She wasn’t alarmed when she saw a talking lizard. Satan must have tossed a piece of fruit to Eve and i’m sure she probably screamed, but nothing happened. She thought God had lied. second lie if you eat it you will be like the Most High. She ate it and nothing happened. She thought she was like the Most High and had everlasting life. When Adam ate the fruit they and all the animals were suddenly filled with carnal knowledge. no longer was the temperature evenly controlled by God. They were cold. They were trying to get warm by sewing the leaves together. Pretty knowledgeable already but they weren’t warmed until God made them robes from the lambs’ skins. This was the first lambs blood spilled. Thank you for listening, God bless you.
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November 27, 2022 at 1:16 pm
I would like to add a couple of very important events. Our Heavenly Father is perfect therefore everything he has done is always perfect. These are the requirements Father set in order for The Word to challenge and defeat satan AND suffer 18 hours and give his life that we have the opportunity for eternal life. Why was Yeshua born in Bethlehem? Because their main income was raising lambs for the sacrifices in Jerusalem. Bethlehem is 5 miles from Jerusalem, an easy walk for people and lambs. Yeshua was born on the same Holy Day as Adam The Feast of Trumpets, that’s why there were no rooms for rent, they were all filled with travelers for Jerusalem. Yahweh was born in a manger because there were no rooms. It had to be perfect so I believe Adam and Jesus breathed at the same time. How perfect is that! Jesus was 30 when he was baptized and received Father’s Holy Spirit. The bible says Yahweh was immediately taken to the wilderness (I believe the very sport Adam stood when he ate the forbidden fruit). Again this had to be perfect timing! now by knowing that Yahweh was 30 means that Adam was 30 when he sinned, that also tells us that Man’s first 30 years had no sin. I’ve learned (not by myself) if you add 30 years to 6,000 years will be the time for Jesus to return. Next year is a Sabbath Holy Year on April 6th 2023 is the start of the Holy Year. If we look at September 16,2023 The Feast of Trumpets, and this is the day that Yeshua started his 3 1/2 years in Daniel chapter 9 verse 26. Next we look at the most horrible time in the 6,000 year history of this earth. THE GREAT TRIBULATION will start on Passover April 21st 2027. That would make the stopping of sacrifices and the Beast Statue in the Holy of Holies on March 22, 2027. Daniel blesses those who leave for God’s place of Safety 45 days earlier. Yes there is a place of safety, and I alway’s wondered in psalm 83 why Egypt wasn’t destroyed. I found the answer on July of this year! I’ll stop now, and I so very much thank you for allowing me to print this. God bless you and all who read this and want to check this out, thanks again, your friend bob wheeler ps I know almost no one will agree with anything I’ve written, but it makes me feel better! bye
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February 24, 2023 at 8:28 pm
Why did an Almighty God allow the fall of man to happen? Knowing that some or many of his children would perish and end up in eternal torment why did he not stop the serpent from seducing them? Something doesn’t make sense.
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February 25, 2023 at 7:03 am
I might have replied before on this thread but i think i have my thoughts together now. To me Adam and Eve were basically grown up children. Children will stick things in their mouth or put a finger in a light socket they do not KNOW any better. It is the parents responsibility to teach them right and wrong. This is the relationship God wanted with Adam and Eve, for them to remain childlike and let God tell them what is right and what is wrong. The tree then is the temptation to go it alone, it gave them the ability to choose for themselves. Whether it was by eating the fruit or through the willful act of disobedience.
God never stops temptation. Temptation in and of itself is not sin. God expects us to face temptation and still obey him. Why should God stop the serpent? Why shouldn’t people just obey, that is actually a possibility? I personally believe there may have been a time God would have let Adam and Eve eat the fruit because all children must grow up, but that time would come when people showed they were ready. Obeying God through all circumstance is proof we are mature.
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