Great post from Amy Hall of Stand to Reason. Reproduced below in its entirety:
On Harper’s Magazine’s blog, Christopher Beha discusses his recent article on what he calls the “New New Atheists”—that is, atheists (such as Alain de Botton) who, having determined that God does not exist, are now exploring the question of how to restore those aspects of life whose foundations were destroyed along with God: meaning, wonder, morality, etc. But, he says, there’s a problem:
Rosenberg—a philosopher at Duke with a predictable commitment to rigor—insists that doing away with religion means doing away with most of what comes with it: a sense of order in the universe, the hope that life has some inherent meaning, even the belief in free will….
I was interested in the attempts of Harris and Botton to salvage some religious splendor for the secularists. So I was only more disappointed to find Rosenberg’s insistence that such efforts were hopeless far more convincing than the efforts themselves.
Beha finds himself in the “disappointed disbelievers” camp, wishing he could believe in God so as to keep what comes with Him:
During an email exchange with Rosenberg, I asked him which camp of atheists he fell into. His response acknowledged my impulse: “There is . . . in us all the hankering for a satisfactory narrative to make ‘life, the universe and everything’ (in Douglas Adams’s words) hang together in a meaningful way. When people disbelieve in God and see no alternative, they often find themselves wishing they could believe, since now they have an itch and no way to scratch it.”
So what are we to do about this unscratchable itch? Rosenberg’s answer in his book is basically to ignore it. The modern world offers lots of help in this effort. To begin with, there are pharmaceuticals; Rosenberg strongly encourages those depressed by the emptiness of the Godless world to avail themselves of mood-altering drugs. Then there are the pleasures of acquisitive consumer culture—the making of money and the getting of things. My own, provisional solution rests in the way of art, and in particular in literature…. Rosenberg’s response to all this, I’m sure, would be: more power to you. At the same time, he would urge me not to make the mistake of believing that the solace I find in art is any more real or meaningful than the solace others find from shopping or from altering the chemicals in their brains.
Isn’t it odd that we have such a great longing for things that don’t exist? Nowhere else in our human experience has an “itch” so primal, so central to our humanity, developed without any correspondence to a real “scratch.” We’re hungry? We have food. We’re thirsty? We have water. We’re lonely? We have friends and family. But we need meaning, order, and wonder…and we have drugs to distract us from that need? It seems a bit wasteful of evolution to work so hard developing a complex need to match a phantom solution that never existed. After all, other primates have survived perfectly well without developing a need for the transcendent.
Atheists might be able to explain the existence of belief in God and meaning as originating long ago from lying, power-hungry tyrants who then passed on said beliefs, but that scenario presupposes an already-existing need those tyrants could exploit, and it can’t explain the continuing need experienced by atheists. Human beings couldn’t have invented the universal need that’s satisfied by these beliefs. Where did it come from, and why?
October 4, 2012 at 5:31 am
Alas, they refuse to heed our call. They certainly do not “wish they could believe in God” as can be evidenced by talking to them. They refuse to engage in meaningful discussions where the clear answer is God and they refuse all premises in order to fulfil that which they “know” to be true. The non-existence of God.
All they would need to do is to peruse the arguments for the existence of God on Reasonable Faith or RZIM, or even here, and they could then hold an intellectual, logical view that God existing is not only plausible, but is actually the best explanation. That they don’t goes somewhat against their “wishing to believe” mantra of nonsense!
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October 4, 2012 at 6:22 am
I disagree with scottpeig, I haven’t seen a single convincing argument for God, and I can’t feign belief for my own personal comfort. If I am not convinced I cannot create a fiction in order to ground these ‘objective’ things.
I have perused many places looking for a convincing argument, and none that I’ve found are successful.
However, I have noticed that none of the things that are said to come with God really do. How do you get from “God” to “morality”? Do you make the assumption that God’s preferences are somehow true? That’s subjective. Each step from God to something like morality or purpose depends on the assumption that what God thinks or wants for us is somehow an independent truth and not merely God’s preference.
The alternative is that it is not God’s will that makes morality or purpose an objective fact, but instead God is merely the messenger of truths independent of Him. God is redundant in those steps.
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October 4, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Allalt,
What arguments have you read/heard for theism? Why did you not find them convincing?
I agree that one cannot believe in something without justification.
How does God go with morality? You seem to have fallen prey to the false Euthyphro dilemma in which X is either good because God commands it, or God commands X because it is good. The relationship between God and the good is that God’s nature is good. His good nature provides the ontological grounding for objective moral values. His commands are not based on His preferences, but His good nature. He is the ultimate good; the paradigm of goodness itself. What God wants for us is always good because His nature is good, in the same way that an apple tree always yields apples because that is the nature of the apple tree.
Jason
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October 6, 2012 at 5:41 am
I have read a great deal of arguments. Luckily this argument has been going on for so long that they all have names now.
The Cosmological Argument (particularly Kalam’s)
The Teleological Argument (from biology and from cosmology)
The Moral Argument
The Ontological Argument
The Transcendent Argument (TAG)
What if God’s nature was one of war and ethnic cleansing? Would that still be good? What is it that stops this being God’s nature?
Here are you options so far that I can tell: you can say “yes, ethnic cleansing and war would be good if they happened to be God’s nature” and therefore need to account for something external to God that stopped it from being God’s nature. Or you can say “no, they would not be good if they happened to be God’s nature” in which case you are appealing to a different morality from the one you confess in your prior comment.
Lastly, you can claim that ethnic cleansing and war are in fact moral and part of God’s nature, in which case you have to explain what exactly is left to be called evil…
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October 10, 2012 at 10:33 am
Allalt,
I also asked why you did not find the arguments convincing. To keep this discussion focused, please pick one of the arguments you have encountered, summarize for me what you think the argument is arguing, and tell me what you find problematic about the argument.
As for your other comments, God’s nature cannot be evil if God actually exists. Why? Because when we are talking about God, we are talking about the greatest conceivable being. If God exists at all, He must possess all great-making properties. Since it is better to be morally perfect than it is to be morally evil, God, if He exists, must be morally perfect. It’s not possible for there to be an evil god. There can be evil supernatural beings, but they cannot be God based on the very notion of what it means to be God.
This notion of greatest conceivable being is also one of the reasons for thinking that God’s nature is the grounding and source of moral value. Since it is greater to be the grounding of moral value than to merely act in accordance with a moral value, God must be the ontological foundation of moral value itself, and not merely obey it. Another reason for thinking that God’s nature is the Good is because if the Good was something transcendent to God, to which God Himself must conform, then the Good would be a necessary being alongside of God, and something God would be subject to. That would invalidate God’s great making properties of omnipotence and aseity. So if the Good exists independent of God, then God does not exist at all.
For more on why God cannot be evil, see my posts here:
http://bit.ly/PnYSEb
http://bit.ly/URvqTP
http://bit.ly/WROMuY
And go here (http://bit.ly/QSxA7w) for a brief examination of the Euthyphro Dilemma and how God grounds morality.
Jason
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October 10, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Either God is the greatest conceivable being according to criteria eternal to His, else the idea of being the greatest conceivable would be entirely circular.
Let me give you the example. You say God is the ontological foundation for morality and that He is perfectly moral.
It would not and could not be inconsistent with those two comments to say that God was an infanticidal ethnic cleanser. For if He was, those characteristics would be part of the ontological foundation for morality, therefore God would continue to be perfectly moral precisely because He is an infanticidal ethnic cleanser.
Now then, without referencing a moral philosophy external to God it is impossible to argue that a moral God could not be an infanticidal ethnic cleanser. For if He was, that would be moral.
That’s why I don’t accept the moral argument.
Here (http://allalltor.wordpress.com/quick-post-navigation) you can find posts on why I don’t accept various other arguments for God.
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October 12, 2012 at 12:33 am
I don’t follow your logic on this one. You seem to be saying the same thing you’ve already said, which relies on the false Euthyphro dilemma.
I don’t have time to read external links, so if you want to continue the discussion about arguments for God’s existence you’ll have to make your points on this thread.
Jason
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October 12, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Firstly, the Euthyphro Dilemma is not false. If morality is God’s nature then it is either arbitrary or controlled by something. Secondly, if morality is objective and absolute (i.e. true in all places at all times) then religious wars are moral, as is ethnic cleansing and infanticide (based on the Bible).
If the Bible is not the message as to God’s moral nature (and no other religious book is, either) then God’s nature (and therefore objective morality) is unknowable. So, how could you know that rape is wrong?
The question remains unanswered: what is it that God’s moral nature is what it is? If nothing necessitates it, then surely rape could be good (either hypothetically, or for all you know).
I have a number of reasons for not accepting the Cosmological Argument for God. Here is one (when I talk about “begin to exist”, I mean “begin to exist from nothing”):
P1: Nothing which exists can cause something which does not exist to begin existing from nothing.
This is a pretty simple premise. If I want to make a chair all I have to do is take non-chair material and sculpt it until it becomes a chair. In this scenario I am an effector; the non-chair material is the effectee (or raw materials); the chair is the effect. Notice that, in this hypothetical, I exist and the non-chair material exists. The non-chair material then becomes a chair. This is called ex materia (from something/from material) creation.
This is causational creation as we know it. The other way of saying this is that for something to be created, like a chair, a thing which exists (an effector) must have an effect on something else that exists (an effectee) to result in a creation (an effect).
Notice that what happens is the effectee becomes the effect. The wood becomes the chair. The cow becomes the steak. The seed becomes a tree. The sperm and egg becomes you.
This, from all of our empirical evidence, is it. So the premise “nothing which exists can cause something which does not exist to begin existing” means that no existing effector can have an effect on an effectee which does not exist to create an effect; something cannot lie in a causal relationship with nothing.
It’s not just empiricism that leads to the acceptance of this premise by the way. It is logically incoherent for an existent thing to lie in a causal relationship with something that doesn’t exist; how could an existent thing have any effect on a non-existent thing at all? The question doesn’t make sense. How could I kick a non-existent football to make it exist?; or knit non-existent wool to make an existing jumper?; or carve non-existent wood to form an existing chair? It is the nonsense of these questions that mean premise 1 is a robust premise.
P2: Given (1), Anything which begins to exist was not caused to do so by something which exists.
This premise logically follows from premise 1, which means you can’t attack this premise, if you disagree with premise 2 you have to find the flaw with premise 1.
P3: The universe began to exist.
This is what all the science tells us. 13.8 billion years ago (sourced from memory, I might be wrong. Not that it matters, even if the universe began 10 thousand years ago or 6 seconds ago the logic applies) the universe began existing.
This premise might not, strictly, be true. There are hypothesised scenarios where this universe is the result of another universe as part of a multi-verse model. This means our universe was not caused to exist from nothing, but from something. Some even go further, to say that the implications of infinity aren’t the same across the multi-verse. So it might be possible for matter itself to go backwards forever.
These are speculative, and unlikely. However, if you do choose to dismiss this premise them you also have to throw out the cosmological argument. Because this is premise 2 of the cosmological argument.
P4: Given (2) and (3), the universe was not caused to exist by anything which exists.
This follows soundly too. Nothing which exists could have had an effect on nothingness to create the universe.
P5: God caused the universe to begin to exist.
This may be a little tongue-in-cheek. But it’s serious. I’m allowing the conclusion reached by Kalam, and advocated by apologists, to be included in my argument.
If you stand by questioning atheists on why we have something rather than nothing, or about how the universe came into existence then this premise is your point. If you doubt this premise now then you must also throw out those two questions and the entire cosmological argument for God with them.
C1: Given (4) and (5), God does not exist.
It’s logically sound.
Pre-empting criticisms:
Premises 2 and 4 logically follow other premises, as does the conclusion. Therefore it is only premises 1, 3 and 5 that are actually open to questioning.
This argument has not argued against a-causal from nothing creation, like that of quantum mechanics.
This argument has not proved the universe could not have begun.
This argument has argued that the universe could have an a-causal beginning.
(some ways around my argument are here: http://allalltor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/getting-around-the-cosmological-argument-against-god, but to get around my argument you have to throw out the Cosmological argument)
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October 17, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Allalt,
The ED is false because it presents only two options when a third is available. You disagree because “if morality is God’s nature then it is either arbitrary or controlled by something.” This fails to take seriously what it means to say something is part of one’s nature. As the metaphysical ultimate and self-existent being, God’s nature cannot be controlled by anything. Indeed, on Christian theism God is the only metaphysically necessary being. Every other being that exists, exists contingently. So any candidate one might put forth as the “controlling” entity for God’s nature would be an entity that God created. If God existed before this entity, how could this entity control what God’s nature is like? That would require backward causation, which is nonsensical. For God to create entity X God must exist before entity X, and since God cannot exist without a nature, His nature was already what it was prior to entity X being created, and thus entity X could not be said to control God’s nature.
As for God’s nature being arbitrary, God’s metaphysical necessity rules this out as well. Something that is necessary cannot be other than what it is.
We don’t need the Bible to know what is wrong. God has made all of us in His image, and thus we have moral knowledge through our moral intuitions. And neither do we have to know how we know some X is wrong to know that it is wrong, and that we know it to be wrong. This should not be surprising. I can’t justify the law of non-contradiction either, but I know it’s true, and I know that I know it’s true. Such is the nature of intuitions (first principles).
I’ll discuss the cosmological argument in a separate comment.
Jason
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October 17, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Allalt,
As for the cosmological argument, you say you reject it because it requires that something come from nothing, and yet “something cannot lie in a causal relationship with nothing.” If I’m understanding you correctly, you are misunderstanding the doctrine of creation ex nihilo. You seem to conceive of creation out of nothing to mean that God acted on something called “nothing” to transform it into something else (acting on Y to create X). Of course, this would be absurd because as you said, that would require one to stand in a causal relationship to nothing, which is meaningless. And it’s impossible to transform nothing into something because nothing has no properties and no potential. It’s not anything!
Creation ex nihilo simply means that God willed to bring X into existence, and that He did so without using some pre-existing material Y to do so. The causal relation is two-steps (God > creation), not three (God > nothing > creation). It’s an example of efficient causation without material causation, similar to what we do when we create stories. These novels and characters come into being in our minds. It is our will that brings them into being. They are not created out of some pre-existing material.
Since your first premise presents a straw man version of creation ex nihilo, your conclusion is irrelevant to the cosmological argument. If you are going to deny that God caused the universe to come into being, you will have to find a different reason.
Indeed, it’s not clear to me what part of the kalam cosmological argument you reject. It can’t be that the universe began to exist because that premise appears in your own argument. Do you deny the first premise that “anything which begins to exist has a cause”? Is the point of your argument that things which begin to exist apart from pre-existing materials cannot be caused because that would require a causal relationship between something and nothing which is impossible, and thus the universe cannot be caused? If so, now that you hopefully see that this is a straw man, are you willing to accept that everything that begins to exist does have a cause?
If you are denying that the universe could be caused because it is irrational to believe that a causal relationship could exist between something and nothing, then what is your alternative? If the universe came into being where there was once no being, and it did so without a cause, then you have to accept two other irrational beliefs: (1) that something can just spring into existence out of nothing; (2) that something can spring into existence out of nothing without come into being without a cause. The first maintains that there was no material cause for the universe, while the second maintains that there was no efficient cause for the universe’s coming into being. These two notions are absurd in the highest degree. While I admit that it is difficult for us to conceive of efficient cause producing a material effect without a material cause, it is beyond conceivable to have an effect without either a material cause or an efficient cause. This is completely irrational. So if rationality is your guide, and that causes you to dismiss the possibility of the universe being caused, then rationality should also cause you to dismiss the possibility of the universe not being caused. But one or the other must be true based on the Law of the Excluded Middle. Which is it? Given the fact that belief in an uncaused universe requires you to believe in two absurd propositions, whereas belief in a caused universe would only require you to believe in one absurd proposition, you’d be better off casting your bet on a caused universe. But as I have shown, it’s not absurd. The only thing that is absurd is the model of creation ex nihilo that you envisioned. But this is not the best model. When we adjust the model to a more accurate one, the absurdity disappears. There is nothing absurd about something creating something else without a material cause simply by willing it into existence. It follows, then, that it is rational to believe in a caused universe. What remains irrational is to believe in an uncaused universe.
BTW, I don’t think the argument you presented is sound because your conclusion does not follow from the premises. From your premises, it only follows that God could not have caused the universe to come into being. But God does not need to create in order to be God since creation is a contingent act that has no bearing at all on God’s nature. So while your argument would falsify Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (because these religions postulate a creator God), it would not falsify theism in general. As such, it’s not a very good argument against theism!
Jason
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October 20, 2012 at 11:57 am
The ED: if morality is simply an aspect of God’s nature, and God’s nature is controlled by nothing, then morality is, at bottom, an environmental accident. It’s arbitrary; there is no reason murder is wrong other than the reason that murder is (contrary to the Bible) not a part of God’s nature. And the reason why murder is not a part of God’s nature is that that is just the hand that was dealt. It could have been dealt differently.
The CA: You are the only person to have ever called that argument a strawman. It’s on my blog, and it’s never been called a strawman. It’s actually a Youtube video by someone else that was brought to William Lane Craig’s attention and not even he called it a strawman. It’s not a strawman, because it is exactly what everyone keeps telling me; something from nothing. I (and TheoreticalBullshit, the Youtuber) work with exactly what people give us. If you have a different version, that’s fine. But this was not a strawman.
Secondly, the alternative that you offer has the exact same issue. God is an effector and there is an effect, but there is no recipient to that effect. Same issue.
As for your story example, there is a recipient to an effect: a story only exists so long as it is imagined. That imagination exists in the form of changes in the brain state. A story only continues to exist if it is remembered, and memory too is based on a change in a brain state. So the brain receives an effect and processes it and we may call the result a story.
When it comes down to the options you have given me; the “irrational beliefs”, you seem not to be aware of the known nature of quantum mechanics. In quantum mechanics there are uncaused appearances of something from nothing. It might not be intuitive, but it is rational. “Something from nothing” must be an acausal event. Not that I need an alternative. All I need is to demonstrate that an idea is wrong.
Lastly, I’d read through the premises again. The argument is sound. You might not think it valid (i.e. you doubt the premises) but if you grant the premises the conclusion does follow.
Lastly, I still recommend reading my writing: http://allalltor.wordpress.com/quick-post-navigation/ there are a few links in there.
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November 6, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Allallt,
Something that exists necessarily cannot be said to be an accident. Accidents are contingent. You can’t say X is necessary, and that X could have been different.
Whether anyone has called your representation a straw man or not is irrelevant. That’s what it is, because it miconstrues the doctrine of creation ex nihilo. Craig himself has discussed this misconception of the doctrine. If people actually held to what you said, then your argument would be right. But the best thinkers on this topic do not understand it that way, so you need to deal with the better argument.
You say that it suffers from the same problem, but that’s not true given how you have defined the problem. I don’t have an instance of X acting on nothing to produce Y. Rather, X just produces Y by an act of will. There is a recipient of X’s act: Y. X just didn’t have to use some Q to produce Y.
Your analysis of the story example is ill-conceived. The issue is not about how long something lasts, but how it comes into being. When someone creates a story or fictional character, they are bringing it into being without any material cause. It is an effect that has an efficient cause only. It demonstrates that one need not have a material cause to have an efficient cause that results in an effect.
Sorry, but you don’t get something from nothing in QM. Virtual particles appear out of the quantum vacuum, which is a sea of fluctuating energy, not nothing. That is an abuse of science to claim otherwise.
No, your argument is not sound. Even if I accepted all of your premises, your conclusion does not follow from them. It only follows that God could not have caused the universe to come into being. It shows God cannot be creator, not that God cannot or does not exist. To prove that God does not or cannot exist you would need premises that show that an essential attribute of God’s nature is that of creator (a position Christian theists would reject because we understand creation to be a contingent act of God). Only if God must be a creator does it follow from your other premises that God cannot exist.
Jason
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