- “Why don’t you care if God exists?”
- “While you may not care to know if God exists, would you agree with me that if God exists, it could make a difference in your life?”
- “Do you think God’s existence is relevant to your life?”
- “If you had a choice, would you prefer that a being like God existed or that He didn’t?”
- “Could your disinterest in the question of God’s existence be due to a fear that if you discover God does exist, you will have to make some changes in your life?”
- “If you do not have an interest in God, what do you think about the ultimate questions in life? Where do we come from? What is our purpose? What’s wrong with the world? What is our ultimate destiny?”
- “So you are saying that if there is someone who brought everything into being, including you, that you have no interest in knowing anything about this person? That would be like an orphan who is not interested to know if he has parents, or who they are.”
Perhaps you have some additional responses you could share. If so, please do so in the comments.
Thinking to Believe 
January 12, 2015 at 9:20 am
How about respecting the fact that they don’t care or care to talk about it instead of trying ways to further the conversation?
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January 12, 2015 at 10:20 am
Because, if you believe what Christians believe, then you believe their soul is at stake. So to a Christian, your comment sounds as intelligible as asking why we should try to get the person who is walking into oncoming traffic to stop if they are happy to walk into it. Even if Christianity is false and God does not exist, these are questions of ultimate significance that could potentially have severe ramifications. One should at least give some thought to it. Apathy regarding such ultimate questions is not praiseworthy.
Jason
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January 12, 2015 at 1:32 pm
I’m of the opinion that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. – and that it’s better not to lead it at all than to apply force. Apathy is an unreceptive state of heart; generally speaking you can’t talk someone out of being apathetic because receptiveness is prerequisite to being heard in the first place. You could show how the question of God is linked to something else that they’re not apathetic about, but even then, you might find that their interest only extends to that thing, and that they lose interest/resent you and the gospel for pestering them once they see that you’re really talking about God. Though it might be worth a try.
The only salient thing in Scripture about apathy that I can think of is in Revelation 3 where Jesus rebukes the Laodicean church for being neither hot nor cold, and warns that if they are lukewarm he will spit them out of his mouth. I don’t think Jesus wants apathetic followers, which is why I’m inclined to think that revealing the gospel to apathetic people is not a good idea. Jesus told us not to give dogs what is sacred or to lay our pearls before swine. I think that the best thing to do for apathetic people is to pray that God will give them a curiosity to know who he is and prepare the soil so to speak, wait for this to happen, and then try and talk to them once their hearts are receptive. The sower can scatter and scatter, but the soil has to be good for the seed to take root and grow. And it is better that it shouldn’t have a chance to take root at all, than that it start to take root be strangled by thorns or eaten by birds: my reason for thinking this is that the Apostle Paul said that those who have had a taste of the Holy Spirit and then fallen away are worse off than those who never knew him. There’s my two cents.
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January 12, 2015 at 4:28 pm
If he/she isn’t receptive I don’t think you should try and move the conversation along, you could do more harm than good. He/She will seek you out for advice when they are ready. Considering how some organized religions have ruined things, I’m amazed at how many still believe. Don’t worry, all of the wheat will be gathered into the barn, either at the Second Coming or the Great White Throne Judgement.
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January 23, 2015 at 9:27 am
What distinguishes the animal kingdom from the vegetable kingdom is that there is built into every form of animal life a behaviour mechanism; it’s called the Soul. Comes as quite a surprise sometimes to discover that animals have souls, of course they do, otherwise they’d be vegetables. Body Soul Spirit corresponds to Mind, Emotion Will; that is, Body is the Mind what Emotion is to Soul, what Spirit is to Will.
So when Christians talk about believing that “their soul is at stake”, this is merely a regurgitating talking point about the hocus pocus of imagination from the ancient mindset who invented the supernatural in the first place.
“Even if Christianity is false and God does not exist, (both true), these are questions of ultimate significance that could potentially have severe ramifications.”
There are indeed severe ramifications: The severe ramification that Atheists perceive and hold dear to help the religious out of their dilemma is that unless the religious are re-educated back to the common sense they were born with by rejecting the religion they were brainwashed with, they will lead wasted lives and be counted among the loneliest people on the planet pursuing myths spawned by the ancient creators of the myths, who themselves sacrificed their children to the imaginative folly of men who believed that the death-blood of their children would appease the caricature concept gods the minds of men created. You see the religious cult believed that blood letting was the only way to do business in those days.
Atheists will always challenge the religious to awake from their sleepdom and start living for a cause instead of dying and suffering and running around in circle for a cause about something that has no existence except in the minds of the Clergy and Church “workers” who live off the avails of prostituting falsehoods for tithes, donations and widows’ properties.
By using fear, deceit and magic, the most insincere charlatans the world has ever known hide knowledge, will not enter into life themselves and prevent decent truth seekers wanting to enter from doing so, thereby discouraging productive lives by promoting puppies chasing their tails around circular philosophical debates that render the mind impotent to truth about the charlatanism that exists in all religions.
A perfect description of this chasing of tails for personal gain is recounted in the new testament scriptures referred to by so called scholars as “the temptations of Jesus in the desert” by religion’s king charlatan, the devil, that’s how bad religions’ charlatans are.
Avoid religion and you avoid the carnival barkers and religious charlatans.
Are you Christians seething with rage yet? If so you are the same company Jesus had to maneouver through, as written in Luke 4:28-30 and which by the way was just after the temptation description above when Jesus began his campaign to save the souls FROM religion’s grip two thousand years ago.
Read it for yourself again, for the first time.
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January 24, 2015 at 5:46 am
Apathy abounds because religion is regressive and continues to render itself obsolete in a world alive with hi-tech knowledge and understanding. Religion still flounders, under the guidance of PhD’s of Theology who are only experts in the unknowable that can never progress beyond no-tech belief systems.
How then can one even think about the supernatural? talk about it, understand it, have any worthwhile conversation about it, ponder it with insight, support it, endorse it or even care about it? Except for those of Philippinic mindset how can religious apathy not abound?
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January 24, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Son of Man,
I’m not “seething with rage”, I’m enjoying the discussion.
Atheists have the same problem as everybody else, all that they can do is share what they believe and let that person make up their own mind.
Are you mixing up organized religion with faith? As you know I have lots of problems with organized religion also. Some have used race, religion, creed, etc… to gain power and cause trouble since the beginning. People who don’t believe in God can also do horrible things not just those who profess to be Christian.
If “Christianity is false and God does not exist” so what.
If a placebo works is it not a cure? Most Christians (and many other faiths even atheists) I know make pretty good neighbours. I disagree with them on several doctrines but we seem to get along okay.
Some places in the Bible it talks about two types of people (eg. sheep/goats, wheat/tares) then it mentions hot/cold and throws in luke warm. Makes me think about how refreshing an ice cold drink is on a hot summer day and same for a piping hot drink on a cold day. My own interpretation is choppers/chopped. You strike me as a chopped like myself.
It seems to me you are trying to warn people who believe because you think others could use their belief to do harm to others. If so nothing you can do, the choppers will chop no matter what.
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January 24, 2015 at 6:20 pm
Paul:
I really appreciate your points of view. I didn’t expect you would be “seething” because you are not counted among the collective company as candidates of Absolute Certainty and that’s a good thing.
“Atheists have the same problem as everybody else….” not really. Atheists, do not have beliefs to share since beliefs are usually dogmatic based on religious teachings, the difference being an abundance of ideas and opinions that are not simply “be all, end all” of religion with the supernatural but are open-ended along with the notion that Atheists are free to admit that we do not know in so many cases but remain open to exploring and researching: seekers who seek, knockers who knock, asking questions that need real answers, not obfuscation and deceit.
I’m not mixing up religion and faith, they are virtually synonymous; “if you step on my religion; you step on my faith”. Faith and Religious (Belief) are interchangeable. How many times have you heard the question; “what is your faith” which is merely another way of asking what denomination do you belong”. And the answer “Christian” doesn’t cut it, Born again, Catholic Protestant, Baptist, Mormon, Pentecostal, Anglican. and on and on. thousands of Christian denominations, trunks and branches.
A placebo may work but that’s not good enough. They are just now starting trial runs in Africa regarding the Ebola vaccines, 10,000 will be given the vaccine and 10,000 will be given the placebo; I would not want to be in the latter group I can tell you. And while most of Jesus’ comments after helping people with their infirmities was ” your faith has saved you”, I think that is taken out of context so many times and the bible does not give the context in so many cases, so I think the placebo/faith is not only overused but gives a reason for many believers to become complacent and stop searching for real cures against real diseases and pathogens.
Witness how many religious parents have been charged with murder and negligence because they “believe” their prayers will cure their daughter of diabetes for example and when the daughter goes into severe hypoglycemia shock; well, google “parents charged with murder for denying medical treatment” and you’ll see examples of prayer(placebo) causing death in a number of recent cases.
But Paul, it’s not simply the believers who are responsible for this insidious mind meme; it is the clergy charlatans who perpetuate the hoax of prayer placebos, false cures and the assurance that the supernatural (God) will intervene at the last moment and save them but that didn’t work for the born-again Captain and the astronauts in the Space Shuttle Columbia, Feb 1, 2003 that burned up and disintegrated over Texas and Louisiana as it reentered Earth’s atmosphere, killing all seven crew members; iprayers did nothing for the 9/11 victims, nothing for the planes downed with all lives lost, nothing for the 250,000 plus victims who perished in the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, (Sumatra) Tsunami of Christmas 2004 and will do nothing for anyone, anywhere, anytime on earth regardless of how sincere a belief they have.
This faith curing never made sense and never will make sense so trying to warn and save people from being brainwashed by deceitful clergy is a noble cause from where I sit.
I always enjoy reading your posts; they are always sprinkled with wisdom and rational thought and for that you are commended.
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January 25, 2015 at 5:30 pm
Son of Man,
Thank you for your reply, I enjoyed your thoughts as always.
I try and live a healthy life style and don’t worry about getting cancer because of my faith. If I have cancer I’m going to see a doctor and follow his advice not just pray to be cured and given the strength to handle the situation. A minister might say if you join my church and give me money I’ll cure you. I wouldn’t trust that minister, what he is saying doesn’t jive with my faith. Used properly the Bible is the greatest self help book in existence. Used improperly it is a dangerous weapon.
Jason’s post is about overcoming apathy of a person regarding the existence of God. Most atheists I’ve talked with appear to be trying to convenience me God doesn’t exist, seems to me the same thing in reverse. Atheists mention all kinds of horrible things to convenience me my faith is wrong. I agree with pretty much everything they say but I attribute those things to organized religion not my faith.
People can be apathetic for different reasons I would guess. I believe the way a persons brain is wired (not sure if best description) is one of the major things though whether they accept the existence of God or not. Another major problem is the majority Christian interpretation of the gospel message IMO. If I never heard about Christianity and some one told me: “Jesus died for my sins and loves me very much but if I don’t accept him as
my personal savior I’m going to hell to be tormented day and night for all eternity.” I probably would reject that message also and is that really what the Bible says? I don’t think so but that is the majority Christian interpretation it seems to me.
If a non-Christian or atheist is well adjusted and loves his/her neighbour as him/herself, I’m not going to worry about him/her, I wouldn’t even be surprised if their name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and they are raised in the first resurrection or are found worthy to obtain eternal life during the Great White Throne Judgement. The wheat will be taken into the barn and the tares will be bundled and burnt in the fire (ie. destroyed body and soul).
I let the Lord decide who’s in His Church.
Am wrong? I very well could be, but my faith helps me.
If you are good without faith, I’ve got no problem with that. Generally speaking, as long as someone isn’t rejecting God because of an improper interpretation of scripture or because of what some have done falsely in His name there is nothing else I could say or do to stop apathy and I’m not worried about them.
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January 25, 2015 at 6:07 pm
I think the approach that is most likely to gain some some traction with an apatheist is a move that introduces the question of worldview. All people have a general philosophy of life- even if their philosophy features a rejection of self examination. That, I think, is the opening. Usually, apathy isn’t rooted in apathy. And if you get a person to actually think, to consider what their beliefs really are, then I think the question of God can’t be avoided.
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January 25, 2015 at 9:08 pm
Paul V:
Look, the question about believing in god amounts only to the idea of the definition of god. I agree with what Cassiodorus said: “And if you get a person to actually think, to consider what their beliefs really are, then I think the question of God can’t be avoided.”
And while I am well aware that many people on this blog are loathe to read my lengthy commentaries as rants, or off topic because they do not conform to church dogma or the teachings they are used to hearing but the entire bible from my understanding of the Jesus perspective is closer to truth about the real Jesus than currently available from any preacher, minister or priest bishop, cardinal or pope can possibly because they all follow the same preconceived notion about the supernatural god being external to man and totally off base from Jesus reality. Nevertheless I persist in opening minds.
The general definition of god in organized religion is an entity that exists external to human beings but has a personal relationship with human beings which is where the “theism” (personal aspect of god comes into play). In this respect I am an “a-theist”.
On the other hand what I read about the message of Jesus’ and what he referred to as the “Father”, changes the entire concept of god for me based on Jesus understanding and my interpretation of his understanding. According to my understanding Jesus did not accept the supernatural god of organized religion that saw god as an external entity and so I had to reconcile what his understanding was, why he despised religion and hated the way clergy tried to brainwash the people into a belief system that was based on lies, tricks, magic and deceit because they had no knowledge about anything they talked about; in other words, they were mere windbags of nonsense and this is what I came up with.
Based especially on his comment in Luke 17:20-21 Jesus said that the Kingdom was “within you” and if that kingdom(where god resides) is within you then that is where god lives. A god, based on that definition, I have no problem understanding or accepting but I have to rationalize what that god involves and so I turn to scripture and read without the supernatural, external god mindset of organized religion; for example, Jesus said, speaking to Nicodemus about being born again, of the spirit when Nicodemus asked how can a man be born again, can he enter back into the womb and be born again? Jesus replied to Nicodemus: “.…..you don’t know these basics? Listen carefully. I’m speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with (philosophical) questions (and run around debating the questions as a witness to what you do not know, the invisible spirit within) When you look at a baby, it’s just that: a body you can look at and touch. But the person who takes shape within is formed by something you can’t see and touch—the Spirit—and becomes a living spirit. If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don’t believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can’t see, the things of the Spirit?
This is a confirmation that the essence of the human being is contained on the inside and we know that the inside of a person is centered in the brain. We also know that the brain in conjunction with memory is that aspect of human development that learns to move about, to flail, to crawl, to walk, and so on until the learning takes place but not without falling, scraping one’s knees, hurting oneself, doing it the wrong way until eventually, with enough trial and error we learn from experience and remember with that fantastic ability we call memory to eventually grow and become what we are, using all the sensory perceptions we are endowed with until we can walk and run and manipulate the body according to the parameters we have at our disposal. In a similar way we exercise our brain and use the capacity of the conscience, consciousness, and such concepts as discretion, discernment, right and wrong, good and evil, wisdom and reason in conjunction with compassion and judgment to make decisions and to act on what is in our best interest without neglecting the fact that our fellow man, experiencing similar growth as a human being, is going through the same processes.
The brain and memory are the utensils that guide us only in good things for our own benefit and the brain will not lead us into situations that will injure us. Jesus said: “what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! And that is where the concept of the Father comes from as I understand Jesus’ idea of the Father. The brain, memory, the internal spirit that guides us and gives us every good that it can muster; and that is the god within you.
Now it is easy for me to understand therefore that all there is of good is available to the man who is available to all there is of good. And all the good that is available resides in all of us since birth and development and the brain and memory caters only to help us, to preserve us, to protect us; this is our personal self-witness and guide and what I believe Jesus referred to when he called that entity within us “The Father”. This concept is indeed a theism and I can understand theism and even accept it from that perspective. Given that definition then I would not call myself an atheist. I am an atheist by the definition of all religions who think god is something otherwise that this.
And there are lots of scriptures to support this idea: praying in your closet in secret; the father seeing everything you do in secret, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven(where the kingdom is in your mind) and bring those good values out into the open where they can be seen by and benefit others.
When Jesus talked about the Son of Man in his day, who do you think he was talking about? Himself? No! But someone just like himself standing ready to take the mantle of the Second Coming and Third Coming and so on until the Age of the Golden City is fulfilled as he himself got off his fat rump, stood up, stopped talking and started doing something about The Coming that Abraham and others often spoke of, often dreamed about, often wished for and hoped for, even prayed for.
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man but not to himself exclusively as the Son of Man, as he noted that Abraham looked down the corridors of history and saw the days of the Son of Man as joyous because Abraham understood the concept of the Son of Man championing the cause of justice for the downtrodden, not because Jesus himself existed before Abraham but the concept of the Son of Man(the wish and hope for a Superman) existed in the human spirit which the clergy rebuked Jesus for and tried to shame him for saying that before Abraham was, the Son of Man Concept existed; “Before Abraham was, I am”. The biblical name I AM, JESUiS CHARLIE.
You may know scriptural words; you may even be textually active and well spoken with the “text” but the clergy is no match for the truth one has yet to discern, about the bible in general and Jesus in particular.
Jesus also referred only to the self witness, within, that was the God he called his Father, not the supernatural gods created by men in every generation before him. The supernatural gods are dead and were born dead so by associating Jesus with the dead supernatural gods of men, Jesus is dead in you. Oh you don’t think he is because you can’t understand it over the blood and gore innocent people are forced to suffer to appease the power hungry and ego thirsty and the belief in the supernatural which is as close to zero as Absolute. Show me a supernatural Geiger Counter and click up some supernaturalfragilisticradiatingclickerismexpialidocious.
Jesus gave life to the world through his life not his death but as long as you have clergy devoted to living off of the avails of prostituting falsehoods, myths and miracles for the financial security they solicit, from those willing to give it to them, that is the falsehood of religious teachings. Those repetitious phrases we hear thousands of times over and over and over with every preacher preaching. All cut from the same cloth.
I’ll keep trying to take people out of the fog of dead culture and into the reality of the life culture that the life of Jesus taught us, not his death, HIS LIFE.
Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God’s holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives. You are the temple of the living god. That God himself through others, as I described above, put it this way:
“I’ll live in them, move into them;
I’ll be their God and they’ll be my people.
So leave the corruption and compromise;
leave it for good,” says God.
“Don’t link up with those who will pollute you.
I want you all for myself.
I’ll be a Father to you;
you’ll be sons and daughters to me.”
The Word of the Master, God. (2 Corinthians 6:16-18)
Jesus affirmed this when he said the Kingdom of God does not come with observation for indeed, The Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20,21
Now the GPS of the GOLDEN CITY? Think back a moment at what is called The Lord’s Prayer. In that prayer is the lamentation yearning: They Kingdom come, thy Will be done ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven” (The kingdom that is within you); in other words, when that Golden City in your mind is made manifest on earth according to the prayer. Where will that be?
Well, on the whole earth eventually, when the civilizing is done, religion is defeated, the supernatural gods abolished from the stoneage minds of the ancients still living with us in the present, are abandoned, when the world has been re-educated and the Order of Worldwide Reverence(OWR) for the Sanctity of Life and the preservation thereof is accepted in OWR time
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January 26, 2015 at 7:01 am
Good morning, peace on earth to all men of goodwill; welcome to Son of Man’s Tidbits of Tactical Theology.
When it comes to God this writer is anything but apathetic. Here is an example of how apathy is not a typical reaction to God, the Bible or the Clergy.
A typical non-apathy approach to the bible is a re-post that was first entered on Jason’s blog site titled: new-dating-methods-result-in-a-2000-year-old-date-for-the-shroud-of-turin-#comment16574; and then; supporting scriptures from several biblical translations researched; and finally, a commentary from an independent source confirming the burial process. In this case Bible Scripture refutes the authenticity and the Shroud is a Fake. One might say the “the hypothesis is falsified by the evidence from the Bible itself.”
COMMENTARY:
May 9, 2013 at 10:27 am
[“Does anyone really believe that a body being placed for burial would not have been washed and cleansed of blood which the Shroud is claimed to be soiled with, from the face and dripping run lines on the arms? I mean what blood, unless the heart was still beating and pumping blood through wounds?
And what was the myrrh used for after water washing if not rubbed over the body?
And why would the “handkerchief” that covered the head be lying apart from the linen the body was wrapped in? Certainly the creator of the shroud did not use this tidbit of tactical theology since the shroud shows the outline of the entire body but how could that be if the head was wrapped in a separate linen.
The conclusion? The shroud is a fake, a forgery, a clever ruse, a typical antic of religious trickery. I mean common sense would not accept this as authentic, not to mention the fact that the body was not dead and that it was removed through a secreted tunnel to a safe house to recover from the trauma of the crucifixion. Removed by two of the most powerful and richest men in the community and top ranking members of the Sanhedrin, the Elitists of the elite on the Jewish Council, Joseph of Arimathea in whose own tomb Jesus was laid in burial and Nicodemus, reputed to be the third wealthiest man in town, who went to meet with Jesus secretly in the middle of the night, as noted in one gospel account.
You can draw your own conclusions of course; I have drawn mine.”]
JOHN 20:7
Parallel SCRIPTURAL TRANSLATIONS:
New International Version
as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
New Living Translation
while the cloth that had covered Jesus’ head was folded up and lying apart from the other wrappings.
English Standard Version
and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.
New American Standard Bible
and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.
King James Bible
And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The wrapping that had been on His head was not lying with the linen cloths but was folded up in a separate place by itself.
International Standard Version
and that the handkerchief that had been on Jesus’ head was not lying with the linen cloths but was rolled up in a separate place.
NET Bible
and the face cloth, which had been around Jesus’ head, not lying with the strips of linen cloth but rolled up in a place by itself.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And a grave cloth, which had been bound about his head, not with the linens, but as it was wrapped and set on the side in one place.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
He also saw the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head. It wasn’t lying with the strips of linen but was rolled up separately.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and the napkin, that had been placed over his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
King James 2000 Bible
And the cloth, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
American King James Version
And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
American Standard Version
and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the napkin that had been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but apart, wrapped up into one place.
Darby Bible Translation
and the handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself.
English Revised Version
and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And the napkin that was about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Weymouth New Testament
and the towel, which had been placed over the face of Jesus, not lying with the cloths, but folded up and put by itself.
World English Bible
and the cloth that had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself.
Young’s Literal Translation
and the napkin that was upon his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but apart, having been folded up, in one place;
CROSS REFERENCES:
Luke 19:20
“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth.
John 11:44
The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
John 19:40
Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
John 20:6
Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
Treasury of Scripture
And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
And the napkin that was about his head,…. The word rendered “napkin”, is thought to be originally Latin, and signifies an handkerchief, with which the sweat is wiped off the face, and so it is used in Acts 19:12 but Nonnus says it is a common word with the Syrians, and the word is used in the Syriac version; and which he renders, , “the girdle, or binding of the head”, for with this the head and face of the dead person were bound; see John 11:44. Now Peter, by going into the sepulchre, and looking about him, and examining things more strictly and narrowly, observed that which neither he nor John had taken notice of, when only stooping they looked in: and that is, that this head binder, or napkin, was
not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself: and was plainly the effect of thought, care, and composure; and clearly showed, that the body was not taken away in a hurry, or by thieves, since everything lay in such order and decency; and which was done, either by our Lord himself, or by the angels.
CONCLUSION:
A rectangular linen cloth 4.37 metres long and 1.13 metres wide, the Turin Shroud, housed in that city’s cathedral since 1578, is famous for its two images of a mutilated man, apparently naked, one of his front, with the arms crossed over the genital area, the other of his back. The wounds resemble those of a crucifixion, with an additional wound in the side similar to the one inflicted on Jesus when he was on the cross (John 19:34). Here we have negative images of Christ’s body as if they had been transferred from the body to the cloth. – See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/charles-freeman/origins-shroud-turin#sthash.lAKV0WfV.dpuf
The producer of the Shroud neglected to study the bible enough and obviously missed the fact that the head and face were covered with a separate piece of linen burial cloth and therefore the entire body image that includes the head and face could not have been transferred to the one single piece of linen the Shroud purports to show.
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January 26, 2015 at 11:02 pm
Son of Man,
I also find some topics naturally lead to a much broader discussion, sadly only a few agree with us. One draw back with this though is that often too many avenues of discussion open up.
What Cassidorus suggests is a good idea but doesn’t necessarily lead to furthering the discussion on the existence of God.
As individuals we each have a unique perspective of our reality and interpretation of Scripture and other writings.
I differ here from many of my fellow Theists. I think I’m right while most of my fellow Theists know their right. As you know from past discussions, I do not automatically go to the supernatural but I don’t exclude the possibility either.
The main reason most Christians I know share their belief is to evangelize (ie. prevent that person from going to hell). And as you are also aware, even different Christian denominations want to convert other Christians to their denomination to prevent them from going to hell. Like Atheists, I also see the irony in this situation.
If the apathetic person believes death is the end, pretty hard to continue on with the conversation about the existence of God.
The main reason I share my beliefs is because I want to warn others (especially Catholics (Latin Rite)) of what I believe is a coming false Christian Church which will eventually bring about a lot of death and destruction. Of course this is based on the Book of Revelation and most Catholics tend to shy away from this topic (ie. gates of hell shall not prevail, I’m an anti-Catholic bigot, etc…).
As an Atheists, what is the main reason you share your beliefs?
Briefly, for sure the Shroud could be a fake along with numerous other relics.
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January 27, 2015 at 12:51 am
Paul the main reasons for sharing my ideas is that belief systems lead to:
complacency and apathy
a distaste for knowledge
accepting ludicrous claims without a shred of evidence
the paranormal & supernatural and the fear associated with such fearful concepts
the stifling of the human spirit
tyrannical dictates
religious decrees
hatred for others: outsiders (infidels)
denial of the beauty of life, good health
the absurd notion that advocates suffering as a good worthy goal
that teaches that there is something unclean in the precondition of life, sexuality, thereby denying the very foundations of the design of life;
repressed sexuality; i.e. genital mutilation, burka coverings
the concept of ‘the Beyond’, invented so as to deprive of value the only world which exists
the unhealthy aspects of a fabricated system to enslave the world with its diseases of pity, guilt, shame, deceit, sin and revenge
the concept of sin invented so natural values become utterly valueless. the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience of God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power.
ritualism of holy days, feasts, festivals and observances made for man becomes man made for holy days, feasts, festivals and observances; and thereby becomes subject to them instead of master of them
the insidious use of ritualisms so that repeated often enough become true to the observer merely by their repetition like Pavlov’s salivating dog
the concept that all is fair in love, war and religion, yet unsure if love and war qualify.
To name a few……………
In addition read the Jesus 8 fold indictment against religion and the clergy to see why Jesus shared his ideas without neglecting about the reasons why he could share his ideas which I quoted in an earlier post: that which one believes versus that which one knows………….
Jesus said, “.…..you don’t know these basics? Listen carefully. I’m speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with (philosophical) questions (and run around debating the questions as a witness to what you do not know, the invisible spirit within) When you look at a baby, it’s just that: a body you can look at and touch. But the person who takes shape within is formed by something you can’t see and touch—the Spirit—and becomes a living spirit. If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don’t believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can’t see, the things of the Spirit?
I find it curious why you do not accept that the Shroud IS Fake in light of the biblical evidence provided.
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January 27, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Son of Man,
In regards to my comments about the Shroud (which also applies to other relics). I personally have not studied sufficiently to make the absolute statement that it is a fake. I’m very skeptical about it being authentic along with other similar relics (ie. pieces of the cross, nails, spear used to pierce Jesus’ side, etc…). If the Shroud is fake I wouldn’t be bothered at all.
Thanks for sharing your concerns. Again (specifically in regards to my understanding of Christianity) I find most of these fall under misinterpretations of Scripture, man’s inhumanity to man, crooks using religion instead of a gun to steal money, even similar to my concerns, etc… these things would not disappear if every one was a Atheists would they? Would the kind of utopia we see in science fiction fantasy occur if only Atheists populate the earth? Would an Atheistic world view prohibit free speech, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, murder, kidnapping, theft, liable, etc..? I’m a Theist who believes in as much personal freedom as possible, perhaps not as much as some Atheists. When I disagree on a matter of personal freedom it is usually because I see one person is imposing on someone else. There are many Atheists and Theists who want to take away my freedoms, I call these people choppers in a previous post.
FGM is very bizarre and should be illegal, I would guess only a small minority of Theists would disagree. I’ve not studied it thoroughly but it appears to be a cultural practice not necessarily a requirement of Islam. Male circumcision I also see as bizarre but it doesn’t have the horrible long term effects of FGM and apparently has some positive benefit so I’m not concerned at all. I was circumcised as a baby and we’re not Jewish. I asked my parents about this, they said the doctor recommended the procedure as a preventative measure and I haven’t suffered any complications.
Some of the big problems of today often seem to be divided along belief in God or not but is this really the case? I don’t think my problems with government debt and deficit, crime and punishment, the economy, the environment, welfare, social programs, etc…. have anything to do with the fact I’m a Theists because many on the opposite side of these topics are Theists.
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January 27, 2015 at 7:32 pm
Paul V:
“Would an Atheistic world view prohibit free speech, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness……” I don’t think so as this is the realm of the theocrat and despot who may or may not be atheist but act too much like religion.”
THIS:
The divine right of kings is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It asserts that a monarch is subject to no earthly authority, deriving his right to rule directly from the will of God. The king is thus not subject to the will of his people, the aristocracy, or any other estate of the realm, including (in the view of some, especially in Protestant countries) the Church. According to this doctrine, since only God can judge an unjust king, the king can do no wrong. The doctrine implies that any attempt to depose the king or to restrict his powers runs contrary to the will of God and may constitute sacrilegious act.
The remoter origins of the theory are rooted in the medieval idea that God had bestowed earthly power on the king, just as God had given spiritual power and authority to the Church, centering on the Pope.
THEN:
A fish rots from the head down
Meaning
When an organization or state fails, it is the leadership that is the root cause.
This proverb is of ancient origin but precisely which of the ancients coined it is probably beyond our ability to know for sure.
Many countries lay claim to it: China, Russia, Poland, England, Greece and so on…
All of the early examples of the phrase in print in English prefer the ‘a fish stinks from the head down’ variant to ‘a fish rots from the head down’, which is more popular nowadays. Those early examples all ignore the nations mentioned above and credit the term to the Turks. Sir James Porter’s Observations on the religion, law, government, and manners of the Turks, 1768, includes this:
The Turks have a homely proverb applied on such occasions: they say “the fish stinks first at the head”, meaning, that if the servant is disorderly, it is because the master is so.
I point this out because the subject tends to take his cue from the King ( as the child from the parent) who also preaches what he doesn’t practice oftentimes and so to the second part of your question: “Would an Atheistic world view prohibit ………… murder, kidnapping, theft, liable, (libel?)etc..?” I think it would, given enough time to resolve while yet battling the tradition and culture of corruption, well known in powers and principalities; on the other hand, I suspect well intentioned Theists also would likely prohibit those atrocities.
It must be difficult for the King (State) to justify taking someone’s life for contravening the Decree that prohibits it if the King himself justifies his own contravention. Defending capital punishment for killing is a logical fallacy. If the King can justify it then why not the subject? Is it merely the strength of power that makes might right?
So both Atheist and Theist must contend with common trickle down morality based on the long standing transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation. One might beat the subject into submission but who beats the defiant King.
Male circumcision is also genital mutilation when skin with sensitive nerve tissue that protects and stimulates the glans in a rolling comfort of sensuality is severed and an important erogenous part of the penis is mutilated by loss of foreskin nerves themselves and thrown away in identical fashion as when the clitoral foreskin is removed from an intact woman in FGM. Thus it is when cultural tradition becomes ritualistic it transitions into Religion from where the claim loudly yells ‘sacred’ in order to accept the unacceptable under the guise of “freedom of religion”.
As long as you have war, police, prisons, crime, religion, you’re in the early stages of what they call, “civilization”.
It seems that we almost have to start all over again. And if so how shall we do it Paul?
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January 28, 2015 at 1:01 pm
Once you guys figure out how to fix the world let me know……….
🙂
Naz
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January 28, 2015 at 7:26 pm
Son of Man,
It’s all over now but the crying I believe, maybe a few generations left till all hell breaks loose. We are now locked into events that have taken on a life of there own it appears. The world is too small and the problems are now too big and global. An attempt will be made for mankind to come together and solve these problem but it will fail, iron and clay don’t mix.
People just can’t live and let live. I was hoping we (the vast majority) could agree on a bunch of stuff and agree to disagree on the rest. Then with complete freedom of speech work on our differences and over time come to an understanding. Trouble is some want to kill you if you disagree with them and others want to throw you in jail if you disagree with them. My concern is those two groups will decide to get together.
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January 28, 2015 at 7:31 pm
Naz,
We may have a different take on Genesis and Exodus, but I’m pretty sure we agree we can’t fix the world.
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January 29, 2015 at 6:39 am
Paul, it goes without saying that we can’t fix it and yes all hell is going to break loose even as the scriptures say.
But I’m waiting for the promise of His coming and then all will be well again….
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Naz
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January 29, 2015 at 7:32 am
Okay Paul: I will share something, a “core belief” I have held for a long time and if you can see it and can agree the glass is half full instead of half empty maybe, just maybe, we can work together. Maybe Naz can become a Disciple. 🙂 The Triune Musketeers? Well , maybe not.
I “believe” we are living in a parallel world in this day and age with the world as it was in the biblical day and age of Jesus and here’s why.
In those days every religious person was afflicted with the supernatural, while the irreligious were afflicted with superstition much like today,(superstition and supernatural the companions) when the world was convinced that the prophecies in the bible heralded the Coming of the Messiah(The “First Coming”), just as Christianity believes today that the New Testament scriptures foretell the “Second Coming”; Judaism still awaits the “First Coming” and Islam is waiting for a messianic figure, known as the “al-Mahdi” to Muslims who is poised to reveal himself after an apocalyptic holocaust on Earth that leaves most of the world’s population dead.
And so as it was in Jesus” day while everybody waited around for “The First Coming” to happen, so the world waits around today for the “Coming”. But Now here is the kicker. IMO, The Second Coming will be no different than the first Coming. That is to say: The First Coming required someone to accept the role and BE the Coming and Jesus was the One who fulfilled that role. He was the only one who did; everyone else had the opportunity TO BE or NOT TO BE but no, they just waited around for someone else TO BE. And so when Jesus made the decision to fulfill the scriptures he went to his worthy and supporting cousin John The Baptist, received his baptism and retreated to the desert to ponder how his campaign should unfold. I believe John knew what he was up to and I believe Joseph of Arimathea was a confidant in whom he consulted as well. But he came to this decision and not taking the task lightly. He did it alone, without approval from any man by using his common sense and passion mixed with the multitude of thoughts, proverbs and scriptures that raced through his mind as he considered the pros and cons and the risks he would face. The fact was that his campaign would necessarily involve stepping on religious toes of the rulers of the people who had ruled for thousands of years and who would not give up their throne easily, if at all.
Are you waiting for the Coming? Can you BE the Coming you wait for, the Champion you wish for, the Messiah you pray for, hope and dream for, the Liberator to deliver the people from the evils that prevail around the world?
A project I have undertaken began in1983, with a simple thought that has had a long gestation but is not taken lightly. “If there was one thing the whole world could agree on what possibly could that be?” And with that question came the idea of a world icon that represented one earth, one world, one people. And so, the task fell on me to design the Icon, a Flag, and then to write and record a demo Anthem, coin the Name, make a Motto, fabricate the Slogan, produced and edited the Video and invest a hundred thousand dollars in product (various sizes of fabric flags & flag of brass lapel pins that will not rust for a thousand years!) that sits in the warehouse awaiting the signal for “Flying Colors”.
There is nothing that prevents the Son of Man from teaming up with other Sons of Man to proclaim, “Let’s Roll! Let it Fly; On the Ground and In the Sky”
Now, who agrees? Any?
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January 29, 2015 at 10:20 am
Leo, I’ll pass on your offer but thanks for giving me a chance to become one of the world’s enlightened saviors……..
The second coming has no meaning unless one understands why Jesus came the first time.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Naz
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January 29, 2015 at 11:55 am
Naz:
I am actually relieved that you are not going to take me up on the offer; you are much too rigid in Absolute Certainty to fit in with the Order of Worldwide Reverence (OWR) the Order requires a certain flexibility which you cannot seem to muster.
I am curious though why you don’t quote the person you claim to follow, Jesus, and always skirt around the bible quoting Paul or some other character apparent-writers who themselves still did not understand why Jesus fulfilled the role he did. Not for the remission of sins of the world was he arrested, imprisoned and crucified but he was arrested, imprisoned and crucified because of sins that ruled the world, the religious world, those sins still rule the religious world and the non religious world today. He suffered not for the sins of the world but because of the sins of the world and the sins were plenty then and plenty now; you my friend do not understand the First Coming any more than you understand the Second Coming.
I submit you do not understand why Jesus said “when the Son of Man returns will he find any faith left in the world” or when he said: ” I tell, you will not have made the rounds of the towns of Israel before the Son of Man is come”; or, you will long to see the days of the Son of Man and will not”; or, “Because just as lightning flashes and shines from one end of the sky to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his time.” Do you think Jesus was talking about himself exclusively? If you think that you’d be wrong about that too.
Moses was called the Son of Man too and he used magic tricks and called them miracles because the “pseudo prophet he consulted with told him that God told the pseudo-prophet to tell Moses to tell Aaron to do a magic trick when Pharaoh asks for a miracle to test the power of Moses’ god.”
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January 29, 2015 at 12:48 pm
As I said before, if one does not understand the first coming, he will also not understand the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Thanks Leo, you just proved my point with clarity.
Enough said……..
Naz
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January 29, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Naz:
You cannot give me one single scripture where Jesus says that, He, himself Jesus Christ, is coming back for a Second Time. uh uh..No. Nada, Non, NOT ONE…….So if Jesus did not say it then you are not following Jesus, so the question you need to answer for yourselfis: why are you following Paul the Pharisee who never met Jesus or someone else who had no idea why Jesus took on the role that other men refused, ignored or rejected because they were grounded in the supernatural? Jesus knew better, Jesus did not expect anything supernatural to happen and he was never disappointed because he was following the common sense father within that he was born with, not the supernaturalists who can never know the myth they follow, he can only follow myth imagined within himself, so he follows himself without recognizing it. You need to face this or remain lost with the rest of the lonely world following a shadow of themselves.
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January 30, 2015 at 5:54 am
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
I follow Jesus, not Paul or anyone else.
Naz
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January 30, 2015 at 7:42 am
That’s great Naz; you’re textually active.
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January 30, 2015 at 10:14 pm
Son of Man,
I’m not waiting for the Second Coming, I’m living my life as best I can in the way I think God wants as part of His Kingdom.
There are several end time scenarios for sure. Judaism thinks Jesus Christ is false, Christianity thinks the coming Jewish Messiah is the anti-Christ and Judaism and Christianity think the coming Muslim al-Mahdi isn’t going to be very Judeo-Christian friendly. Not sure if I got that all right? Anyway if the end times, hold on to your head it could be scary.
There are some beliefs I share in common with you and Naz. Like all things Biblical it’s clear as mud. But if you think about the Bible as I do that’s okay. I think the Bible is like that so we can each get what we need, kind of a one size fits all owners manual for humans/self help book.
If we all used the Bible as how we should live instead of how our neighbour should live, this world might not be in such a mess.
You, Naz and myself (or people like us) may all end up in jail some place waiting to get our heads chopped off by the same people for believing three totally different things but not believing what they want us to believe.
This is my sheep and goat idea. When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Is that for Christians only? Is that for Catholics only? Or is that for sheep? I think it is for sheep. None of us are in total agreement on anything, I may frustrate some people, but I feel confident neither one of you wants to chop my head off. But a goat, now he wants to chop my head off because I won’t agree with him.
Unlike you I think the supernatural is possible. Unlike Naz I might not attribute a certain event to the supernatural. Not sure how things will play out but hope I can stick to my principles whatever happens in this life. If it’s “out of the blue and into the black” at least my faith helped me deal with the here and now and no harm no foul.
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January 31, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Yes, that message: “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”, is for “all” the sheep with the adjunct (caveat) found elsewhere: “no man can come to me unless the Father…….. draw him”.
However, even Jesus believed that the message was only for certain sheep and not all sheep; the Jews were the sheep, not everybody else, as recounted in the story. Jesus was mean and insulting to the Canaanite woman but she embarrassingly outwitted Jesus after Jesus referred to the her and the excluded sheep as dogs:
“Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.” Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.”
Other details are added from the parallel passage in Mark 7.24-29:
Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil spirit came and fell at his feet. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter. “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” / “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “but even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.” Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”
An important lesson is noted here because Jesus knew he was wrong.
At first blush, Jesus’ reply to this needy woman was harsh and insensitive, but his true colors came through and a humbled Jesus repented; his wisdom, flexibility and tenderness became apparent when he immediately yielded to his character.
Jesus says that “persistence” is the principle thing for anyone to “stick” it out. And he told them parables to the effect that they ought always to stay alert to their hope and not lose heart.
two examples:
The Parable of the Persistent Widow; Luke 18:1-8 “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says.
A Friend Comes at Midnight. Luke 11:5-8 5 5-6 Then he said, “Imagine what would happen if you went to a friend in the middle of the night and said, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread. An old friend traveling through just showed up, and I don’t have a thing on hand.’
7 “The friend answers from his bed, ‘Don’t bother me. The door’s locked; my children are all down for the night; I can’t get up to give you anything.’
8 “But let me tell you, even if he won’t get up because he’s a friend, if you stand your ground, knocking and waking all the neighbors, he’ll finally get up and get you whatever you need.
Polonius said:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Take care; don’t slip on the oil slicks.
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January 31, 2015 at 8:20 pm
Son of Man,
Agreed, Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, but many refused His invitation so He bid His servants to invite others to His feast.
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November 30, 2017 at 10:31 pm
[…] See also Dealing with Apathy […]
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