Many people assume that science and religion conflict. Who believes this? The religious people, right? They are the ones who are anti-science, right? No. Pew Research indicates that those most likely to see a conflict between religion and science are not the most religious, but the least religious.
Why is that? It could be that the most religious people are scientifically illiterate, and are unaware of the conflict between their faith and science. But this is opposed to the meme that the most religious people are the most anti-science because they recognize that science conflicts with their religious faith. One cannot be both scientifically illiterate and know enough about science to determine that science conflicts with one’s faith.
Perhaps the most religious people do not see a science-faith conflict because they are scientifically literate and have found a way to reconcile the findings of both (e.g. theistic evolution).
Or perhaps the most religious people do not see a science-faith conflict because they understand that there is a difference between the method and empirical findings of science, and the interpretations of what is found. Clearly there is no conflict between the methods of science (observation, experimentation, testing of competing hypotheses, etc.) and religious belief. The conflict only arises when scientists force-interpret empirical findings through a particular philosophical understanding of science. Here I have in mind the view of methodological naturalism. This is the view that scientists must offer only naturalistic causes to explain naturalistic phenomena; i.e. to qualify as science, an explanation must invoke naturalistic causes rather than intelligent causes. While it makes sense to first look for a naturalistic explanation for naturalistic phenomena, it does not make sense to limit oneself to naturalistic explanations when the evidence points to the involvement of a personal agent rather than a natural cause. Such a restriction means that science is geared toward finding philosophically acceptable answers rather than the right answers. Indeed, such a restriction may prevent scientists from discovering the truth about the physical world. Richard Lewontin is very candid about the philosophical bias of scientists. In The New York Review of Books he makes this remarkable admission:
Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs…in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.[1]
The situation is similar to a coroner who receives a dead body from the police chief and is charged with finding the cause of death, but the coroner is told he must provide a naturalistic explanation for the man’s death. He cannot appeal to an intelligent cause, and thereby conclude that it was murder. And yet, when the coroner examines the body he discovers stab wounds in his back and three bullet holes in the back of his head, all of which points toward an intelligent cause and away from a naturalistic cause. The coroner should be allowed to follow the evidence where it leads, whether it be to a natural cause or an agent cause. But because of the rules, he must deny the obvious (that the man was murdered) and continue searching for the most plausible naturalistic explanation for how the knife and bullets found their way into his backside.
We see this very thing happening in the origin of life research. Science has discovered that DNA is the basis of life. That is solid science. But where did DNA come from? This is the point where religion and science part ways, because it is at the question of origins that scientists invoke methodological naturalism. DNA contains an unbelievable amount of complex biological information, and even utilizes a coding system to build proteins. The only known source of information and codes is intelligent agents, and thus an intelligent agent is the best explanation for the origin of DNA. But those who subscribe to methodological naturalism say this is not a scientific conclusion according to the modern definition of science. They insist that science must and will find a naturalistic cause for the origin of DNA. And yet, all attempts to find a naturalistic cause have resulted in failure.
The point of all this is not to undertake an exhaustive look at the origin of life, but to illustrate how the religious believers can fail to see any conflict between their faith and science. It’s because they understand the difference between the empirical findings of science and the interpretation scientists make of those findings. Interpretations guided by methodological naturalism may conflict with religious faith, but methodological naturalism is a philosophy of science, not science itself – and there are good reasons to reject methodological naturalism as a stricture for empirical interpretation.
_________________________
[1]Richard Lewontin, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” The New York Review of Books, January 4, 1997.
November 10, 2015 at 10:29 am
Academia loves to talk about the philosophy of belief (religion) compared to the search and acquisition of knowledge (science). Two diametrically opposed viewpoints that by Occam’s razor standards can easily be coined as religion vs science; belief vs knowledge; nonsense vs common sense, respectively.
Let’s just grant that there is an omniscient god who occasionally authors books. And he’s going to give us a book, the most useful book. He’s a loving god, compassionate, and he’s going to give us a guide to life. He’s got a scribe and the scribe’s going to write it down. What’s going to be in that? I mean just think of how good a book would be if it were authored by an omniscient deity.
There is not a single line in the bible that could not have been authored by a 1st century person. There are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves about who to kill and why. There’s nothing about electricity, there’s nothing about DNA, there’s nothing about infectious disease, about the principles of infectious disease.
There’s nothing particularly useful and there’s a lot of iron age barbarism in there and superstition. This is not a candidate book. I mean you can go into any Barnes & Noble blindfolded and pull a book off a shelf which is going to have more relevance, more wisdom for the 21st century, than the bible. I mean it’s really not an exaggeration.
Every one of our specific sciences has superseded and surpassed the wisdom of scripture, from cosmology, to psychology to economics. We know more about ourselves than anyone writing the bible did and that is a distinctly inconvenient fact for anyone wanting to believe that this book was dictated by the creator of the universe.
There’s a list of some ten thousand gods that used to be worshipped but not anymore and that makes everyone an atheist. Nobody believes in the Sun God Ra. Anymore. No one believes in Juno and Venus. Anymore. You’re all atheists as far as that’s concerned. Do you look with pity on those who do or ever did support such cults? All we say is make it consistent. Just go one god more and your nearly there.
Religion is essentially a failed science. Religion was the discourse when all causes in the universe were opaque to the obtuse and ignorant who tried to make the best of what little they had when we didn’t know the basis of anything. We didn’t know why we were here, We didn’t know how diseases spread or what disease was, why people died early and why others flourished, we didn’t know what caused thunderstorms or why crops failed, and naturally because of the cognitive and behavioral imperative we formed descriptions of the world and we tried to figure out what’s going on.
We’d tell ourselves stories about our origins, about where we’re going and about causes in the world, and those stories given our pervasive ignorance, and our disposition to see agency in the world, to feel ourselves in relation to the world around us. These stories entail being in relation to invisible friends and enemies so we have this parent figure in the sky who’s going to take care of things if you live rightly and we have other demonic presences that we should be really worried about.
And gradually what you see happening is religion as rationality and dozens of specific sciences were birthed in the human conversation. You see religion on a hundred fronts losing the argument with science. On the front of human health and disease; you know, it use to be that you could get a diagnosis of demonic possession.
I mean that was a reasonable thing to believe you had if you were having seizures but now we have the science of neurology and we know about epilepsy so now when your kid has seizures, you know you don’t go to the church to get him diagnosed and treated by exorcism and so that’s a good thing. I’m just saying that religion is losing the argument on every front. On every other front, it’s losing the argument ethically and will lose the argument spiritually.
We will understand spiritual experience so well at some point at the level of the brain, at the level of changing attention in certain ways can change human experience, we’ll understand it in a way that makes a mockery of denominational religious talk about Jesus and Buddha and magic powers that will break down in the same way it has broken down on medicine and that’s a process that we have to be honest about and let unfold.
It’s commonly imagined that atheists think there’s nothing beyond human life and human understanding. The truth is that atheists are free to admit that there’s much about the universe that we don’t understand. I mean it is obvious that we don’t understand the universe. But it is even more obvious that the bible does not reflect our best understanding.
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November 10, 2015 at 11:06 am
Jason,
Your example of the dead body and the coroner proves well-taken. Even the once arch-atheist Antony Flew realized he had to follow the argument where it leads. http://creation.com/review-there-is-a-god-by-antony-flew
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Yahshua answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” (Matthew 13:10-17) “Hear then the parable of the sower….” (Matthew 13:18-23)
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November 10, 2015 at 6:24 pm
Frank keeps quoting scriptures but thinks they do not apply to him. It is so lolable…………..
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November 10, 2015 at 6:26 pm
Frank:
You are not an activist; you are a reactivist for you have no sense of self with respect to scripture. Sorry. But you only grab from cues of others.
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November 10, 2015 at 11:48 pm
http://www.reasons.org/ Hugh Ross web site is quite good at seeing no conflict and too there is the web godandscience by Richard Deem.
Now let’s just hold our breath as sonofman comes along with another long and windy rant full of attack and contradictions…and self-centered agenda (Blaaa Blaaa Blaa) YAWN
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November 11, 2015 at 5:55 am
The coroner and dead body argument is well-taken? Are you kidding me? No one in their right mind, theist or atheist, scientist or non-scientist, genius or blithering idiot, would go looking for other causes when there are bullet holes and stab wounds. It’s a straw man argument and a very, very poor one at that.
Lewontin’s paragraph is a favorite of the IDC, intelligent design creationist, bloggers. They use it, like Jason, to imply that the methodological naturalism, MN, of the scientific method is just a bunch of nonsense, full of rigid rules and specious argument. I’ll give Jason credit, however, for at least including the last sentence of Lowentin’s paragraph. Most IDC bloggers quote mine Lowentin’s argument and “forget” to include that sentence. It is the very basis for not allowing the God hypothesis in scientific inquiry. Eugenie Scott does a better job of explaining why that should be the case, using less colorful language than Lowentin:
http://ncse.com/rncse/23/1/my-favorite-pseudoscience
Unless I am grossly mistaken, most, if not all, of the “only God could do it” examples in Michael Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box now have plausible MN explanations. The scientists who conducted the research on those cases ignored Dr. Behe’s assertion that only God could produce such irreducibly complex structures. I said it four years ago on this website and again earlier this year, the God hypothesis is an intellectual dead end and is thus an unacceptable model for scientific inquiry. Had those other scientists heeded Dr Behe’s call to give sole credit to God, they would not have started their research programs in the first place, programs which helped better define the evolutionary biology basis for the immune response and the blood clotting cascade, to name just two of Behe’s examples. Science uses MN because it works, plain and simple. The counter argument, IDC, does not. Until the proponents of IDC can make a plausible design argument without relying upon the God hypothesis, IDC will never be accepted as science. You’ll forgive me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen, given that IDC is grounded in Genesis 1 and 2, or, as Phillip Johnson, the late, patriarchal godfather of the IDC movement used to insist, John 1:1
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November 11, 2015 at 10:11 am
To begin with, it’s striking that all life, from plants and animals to bacteria, viruses and fungi, rely on the same DNA coding mechanism to carry the biological instructions guiding how the creature is put together, Dawkins noted. What varies from one animal to another is not the code’s structure or mechanism, but the individual genes.
Thanks to the Human Genome Project and similar projects that have uncovered the gene sequences of other animals, such as the chimpanzee, scientists can now compare the code among different species. They can be textually compared, like a Biblical scholar might compare two scrolls containing the book of Genesis. When every letter of two gene sequences is compared, scientists find whole ‘sentences’ and ‘paragraphs’ of identical DNA ‘text.’
In the future, as ever-increasing computing power will enable a proliferation of genome sequencing, scientists will be able to make detailed DNA comparisons about the evolutionary relatedness of every species to every other. There is already enough such DNA comparison evidence to prove beyond doubt that all living things have shared ancestry, Dawkins said. This textual proof of the common ancestry of all living things is “knockdown evidence” of evolution.
– See more at: https://news.virginia.edu/content/richard-dawkins-universal-dna-code-knockdown-evidence-evolution#sthash.P11GoHXS.dpuf
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November 11, 2015 at 10:22 am
“There is already enough such DNA comparison evidence to prove beyond doubt that all living things have shared ancestry, Dawkins said. This textual proof of the common ancestry of all living things is “knockdown evidence” of evolution.”
Not so fast….it could also prove that all living things have the same designer.
I’m still standing and Dawkins can have a seat.
Naz
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November 11, 2015 at 3:55 pm
Naz:
This is a typical ploy of believers: using scientific acquired knowledge to CONFIRM nonsense imaginations from the Ancients. Remember the miracle that Moses performed for Pharaoh on direction from The Lord to prove the god of Moses as the ultimate god? A magic trick that turned the staff into a snake which the court magicians subsequently replicated likewise for Pharaoh.
Read it again (with my insight) for the first time:
Exodus 7:6 Then Moses and Aaron did so; just as the Lord commanded them, so they did.
9; “Pharaoh will demand, ‘Show me a miracle.’ When he does this, say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down in front of Pharaoh, and it will become a serpent.'”
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
So in fact this passage simply points out that magic (unexplained sleight of hand or common sensical events) are called miracles in the bible. Why can you not admit the very truth of the bible text that debunks the myths and miracles you all pass off as supernatural acts of the same Lord that said to Moses…. perform a (magic trick) miracle?
Yet you use the knowledge of science to try and support unsupported non knowledge belief.
Dawkins can stand on his knowledge claims but believers cannot. Nor have they been able to stand on one single advance in the last ten thousand centuries; you have never progressed one tiddle further than the One Lump God of Abraham; no further than Zeus, Thor, Yada or Yada sons did.
Logic should not hurt but I perceive that it does
to believers who remain:
Stuck in the muck
Like a spinning truck
Whose tires turn but
All it churns is
A bigger
Hole
AND
You
Will
Not
Learn.
Take care read and heed.
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November 11, 2015 at 5:50 pm
each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. (1 Corinthians 3:13)
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November 12, 2015 at 5:47 am
I agree that scientists should be allowed to reach supernatural conclusions, if they are clearly proven. But the facts is that there isn’t any evidence of the supernatural, so it is purely theoretical.
Let’s say the fossil record, the dating of the Earth, etc all pointed toward the sudden appearance of complex life and the Earth 6,000 years ago. In that case, scientists could say the Earth is 6,000 years old and that complex life suddenly appeared. Should they be able to go further and guess that the supernatural might be involved? We can agree to disagree on this. But the reality is that science shows no such thing.
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November 12, 2015 at 2:59 pm
Bob Mason,
If the dead body and the coroner don’t grab you, try the roast chicken & DNA….
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November 12, 2015 at 8:42 pm
Frank:
Give me 3 minutes of knowledge and you can have 3 millennia of belief; I will advance and you will not. End of story. I rest my case.
If you have one tittle of evidence to the contrary, that belief supplants knowledge, please let us receive it.
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November 13, 2015 at 6:19 am
Yawn………….
Naz
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November 13, 2015 at 6:50 am
Until this post by Jason, I had a great deal of respect for his intellectual arguments. Since retiring, I have had a lot of free time to read all sorts of books. Jason’s posts have been an inexhaustible source of ideas for exploring ethics, morality, the histories of the world’s religions, western civilization and the sciences, the origin of homo sapiens, the interface between science and religion and the debate between theism and evolutionary biology, just to name a few of the subjects I have delved into. However, with this posting, my opinion of Jason’s intellectual honesty as dropped a bit. With this posting, it has become obvious to me that Jason is, or has unintentionally become, an accomplice of the Discovery Institute.
The charter mission of the DI is to destroy the methodological naturalism of the scientific method and replace it with a theistic science that accepts God as a valid scientific hypothesis. To the members of the DI, MN is atheistic and is the single most important source of the moral decay of western civilization. The DI was born after the public high school teaching of creation science was repudiated in 1982 by the federal courts in McLean v. Arkansas. The creationist textbook Creation Biology was rewritten and given a new title, Of Pandas and People, substituting the words Creator and creation with Designer and intelligent design, and thus was born the IDC movement. Despite the second repudiation for the teaching of IDC by the federal court in 2005 in the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, the DI has continued their efforts to destroy MN. I have already explained how the God hypothesis does not work as a valid scientific argument and yet, the DI persists. They wrap their writings in the language of science in the hope that somehow, somewhere, someone will see the ”Light” and force science to accept God.
Scientists freely admit that science has not (yet) established a plausible mechanism for the origin of life, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that science should give up and simply accept that God did it. The DI will continue to assault the MN basis of evolutionary biology in order to prevent biologists from even attempting to ask questions about the origin of DNA. Likewise, the DI will continue to disparage to work of Steven Hawking in the hope of preventing him and his colleagues from asking questions about the origin of the universe. DNA and a universe without a Designer would deal a deathblow to the arguments of the theists. Thus, I find Jason’s above disparaging of MN and Lennox’s ROASTCHICKEN analogy to be so obviously blatant arguments from ignorance that I was surprised they would stoop to such a low standard of intellectual discourse. As I see it, such arguments are mere attempts to marginalize scientific inquiry without offering a valid argument for a theistic alternative and are thus unworthy of intelligent debate.
However, that doesn’t mean I will no longer visit this website. There are still books to be read and things to be learned and Jason’s posting will likely be an ongoing source of challenging ideas to explore.
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November 13, 2015 at 9:27 am
Naz…
….Yawn….zzzzz…. and the sleepers continue in dormancy:
He told them, “I feel bad enough right now to die. Stay here and keep vigil with me.”
Going a little ahead, he fell to the ground and prayed for a way out: “Papa, Father, you can—can’t you?—get me out of this. Take this cup away from me. But please, not what I want—what do you want?”
He came back and found them sound asleep. He said to Naz, “Naz, you went to sleep on me? Can’t you stick it out with me? Stay alert, be in prayer, so you don’t enter the danger zone without even knowing it. Don’t be naive. Part of you is eager, ready for anything in God; but another part is as lazy as an old dog sleeping by the fire.”
He then went back and spoke again the same lamentation. Returning, he again found them sound asleep. They simply couldn’t keep their eyes open, and they didn’t have a plausible excuse.
He came back a third time and said, “Are you going to sleep all night? No—you’ve slept long enough. Time’s up. The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of sinners. Get up. Let’s get going. My betrayer has arrived.”
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November 13, 2015 at 9:51 am
Bob Mason:
Brilliant.
Which brings me back to the bible belt. Widely recognized of course as an area of outstanding natural stupidity, and with very good reason, especially when you consider the millions of dollars that have been spent in building creation museums. Just think of the psychotherapy that money could have paid for.
Creation museums are the latest symptom of the insanity to hit the United States and they are of course inspired 100 percent by scripture. At the moment they seem to be popping up like mushrooms in a spontaneous eruption of life ironically enough all over the land of the free and beyond, now.
These are places of education where Christian children can go to learn the truth, that their parents are morons and quite possibly insane. They learn that Adam and Eve, not only existed,
in all their Disney-like, fig-leaf, apple chomping way but they rode around the place on dinosaurs.
The dinosaurs of course died out eventually, although one dinosaur is still with us unfortunately. And that is creationism’s very own, Ignoramus Rex. A small brain creature with a hard outer shell, impervious to reason, feeds exclusively on scripture and its copious droppings have not only been used to build these museums but can serve as a useful metaphor for everything in them.
If you’ve got a head full of scripture then what you’ve got is a head full of ideas that have stopped growing; that’ll be a head full of dead ideas then. And you have no right to have those ideas respected or taken seriously. You’re simply not entitled to it and you’ve certainly got no business using them to tell other people how they should live their lives because you don’t know anything.
The resulting irony is a God relegated to Ignorance and Ignorance becomes the bedrock of the Divine.
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November 13, 2015 at 8:02 pm
Isaiah 51:7-8
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November 13, 2015 at 8:30 pm
Isaiah 51:7-8 What does it say?
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November 14, 2015 at 4:28 am
Yikes!! The moths are going to eat my lab notebooks. You gotta love the way the Hebrews write.
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November 14, 2015 at 8:03 am
Argue facts, not pompous unabomberesque “manifestos” and vapid insolent harangues that only serve to polish the narcissist’s mirror.
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November 14, 2015 at 10:01 am
I thought my facts were spot on.
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November 14, 2015 at 10:16 am
Frank Fabricates Facts From Fiction
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November 14, 2015 at 11:47 am
Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups in a 32-question survey of religious knowledge by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. On average, Americans got 16 of the 32 questions correct. Atheists and agnostics got an average of 20.9 correct answers. Jews (20.5) and Mormons (20.3). Protestants got 16 correct answers on average, while Catholics got 14.7 questions right.
How will you do on the quiz?
With a couple guesses my score was 29 correct, 3 wrong @ 91%
Who can beat this score? Thou shalt not fib.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0105/Are-you-smarter-than-an-atheist-A-religious-quiz/When-does-the-Jewish-Sabbath-begin
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November 14, 2015 at 12:12 pm
If your are tired of sitting through Frank’s hour long videos, here is an alternative:
Click to access Lennox2011.pdf
Easier and quicker to digest.
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November 14, 2015 at 12:36 pm
Bob Mason:
Shorter than Franks hour long videos but not by much. If one has to read lines several times to get the gist of the statement which are not necessarily simple statements actually, a 20 minute speed read is at least half or more as long. And that in itself produces further reflection. lol
Where did this term New Atheists come from I wonder? I have been there since my Santa Claus days.
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November 14, 2015 at 3:04 pm
“AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.” (Luke 1:50)
“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” (Luke 12:5)
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November 14, 2015 at 3:04 pm
SoM:
You think that’s bad? Try reading Phillip Johnson’s Darwin on Trial. Seemed like on every other page there was some incorrect comment on evolutionary theory or the scientific method. Took me forever to get through it. Taught me a lot though, mainly how one cannot apply the legalistic version of truth seeking – the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (Johnson was a lawyer by trade) – to the study of science, where truth is always tentative.
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November 15, 2015 at 11:14 am
Luke 12:…..
4 “I’m speaking to you as dear friends. Don’t be bluffed into silence or insincerity by the threats of religious bullies.“
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November 15, 2015 at 11:50 am
Lk 12: 1, He said to them, “Watch yourselves carefully so you don’t get contaminated with Pharisee yeast, Pharisee phoniness.“
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November 15, 2015 at 12:44 pm
IF YOU ONLY KNEW HIM FRANK:
Jesus, the real Jesus had to lie and deceive his enemies for self preservation, to escape the clutches of those religious fanatics who wanted to manhandle him, arrest him, beat, bash and thrash him, assault, whip, scourge, browbeat, mock, punch, scratch, kick, lash, stab and nail his hands and feet to a tree. There is nothing wrong with lying and deceiving the religious pricks one has to hide from, to avoid, pass around, disguise from, leave by the back door, jump in the boat, pack up for the desert, to avoid their perverted religious insanity of the Government of Death; he would have to do the same thing today if he was in a Muslim theocracy or confronted by Christian and Judaist fundamentalists who would most certainly argue with him about the God Concept as they understand it to be in the realm of the supernatural, we are all taught, compared to how Jesus understands the Spirit as the God “within” which is exactly what happened two thousand years ago isn’t it?
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November 17, 2015 at 3:39 pm
As I said, argue facts; no “manifestos”.
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November 17, 2015 at 5:16 pm
Frank:
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
The Preacher says: Now where would you start to build a case for God without using the bible; well fortunately, the bible gives us a clue as to where to start and if you turn to Romans chapter 1; I want to read three verses to you and we will get an indication from the New Testament about where we might want to look if we were going to build a case for God that did not use the bible. A secular smile.
The Preacher says: We get a clue from the bible itself that there will be facets of creation that provide evidence that God exists that does not depend upon prior acceptance of the bible itself. Right……. and then?
In other words…if you were going to build a case for the existence of God that did not use the bible where would you start?
WHY IN THE BIBLE, NATURALLY, IN ROMANS 1 ! DUH………..
Some fact Frank. If you were going to prove a case for the existence of God that did not depend on the bible you would start by looking in the bible.
That Guy must be a Captain of a Boat because he is surely Out To Launch! contradiction is laughable, lolable and ludicrous all at the same time. Only a believer could accept nonsense for reason nest ce pas?.
Do you agree with me?
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November 18, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovable and gracious, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, ponder these things. (Philippians 4:8)
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November 18, 2015 at 9:19 pm
If Evolution is not valid among Christians then we have to ask the question: do you believe there is life in outer Space? Of course the belief that there is life in outer space may very well pit the new Christians against the Fundamentalists who probable would deny life in outer space as it would go against their dogma, since humans are supposed to be created in the image and likeness of God. If that is true than would it also be true that life in outer space is also created in the image and likeness of God? If that was true then they would necessarily have to look exactly like us human beings. And if not what do you suppose they may look like? A slice in the evolutionary chain? Or simply replicas of humans?
The simple fact is. I believe, life in outer space would dispel the notion of a god creator since we would then be competing against that life to give meaning to it and attempt to convert it like the aboriginals of the Americas were converted when they were discovered back in 1492CE.
This comment needs a response from a fundamentalist Christian in order to continue the discussion; otherwise the question do you believe there is life in outer space is academic and quite obviously must have only ONE ANSWER.
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November 18, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Scholar and writer, philosopher and soldier…none can claim exemption from the technic of brainwashing in early childhood be it parent or priestly influence. That religious ideas can have lasting imprinting effects on a person like culture, food and language does not mean that intelligent minds cannot be persuaded to accept ideas of belief and defend them throughout their life but that does not mean the veracity of their claims are any less impotent than those of less brilliant disposition. In adulthood the genius mind and the idiot savant may both speak the same mother tongue but that does not mean that other tongues are not valid communications regardless of ones stature in society, acumen in business or accumulation of wealth. Donald Trump may be a billionaire but that does not mean his philosophy or his beliefs are any more valid than the pauper he employs, the audience he preaches to or the citizen he persuades a vote from.
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November 19, 2015 at 11:21 am
As an aside, the term “idiot savant” is a politically incorrect way of describing a select group of individuals on the autism spectrum. Like terms such as feebleminded and retarded, idiot savant is a carryover from a time, not too many years ago, actually, when institutionalized autistic children and adults were subjected to beatings and electric shock to “treat” their non-social behavior and psychiatrists blamed emotionally frigid parents for producing autistic children. The current thinking is that intellectual genius is a knife edge of autistic traits, a product of long ago evolved genetics and possibly environmental factors (and no, NOT the MMR vaccine). Too much of the traits and one falls off the edge of the spectrum into a state of uncommunicative, perpetual bedridden care, while too little leads to mediocre intellectual performance. The true geniuses in society, the ones that make the paradigm changing discoveries, often display the aloofness and “socially challenged” characteristics currently associated with the autism spectrum. Just because their minds work differently than the majority of the general public doesn’t mean they should be shunned or denigrated. Instead, they should be celebrated and encouraged.
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November 19, 2015 at 2:32 pm
BM:
Your point is well taken.
As I write this I am reminded of a proverbial scripture and I preface my comments accordingly:
My dear child, don’t shrug off discipline, but don’t be crushed by it either; It’s the child he loves that he disciplines; the child he embraces, he also corrects. In other words no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby.
I have a few comments about political correctness however. Sometimes in our zeal to be political correct we go too far. I did not coin the term (I S) nor ever believed beatings and electric shocks were appropriate for socially and mentally challenged persons. It has not yet completely become politically incorrect. It is difficult to think of a different term when comparing, on the one hand the savant and on the other hand the non savant. My wife and I have worked closely with physically and mentally challenged individuals for a long time; we both have family members that are challenged; my university major was social psychology; my practicum was a psychiatric hospital, not to develop hurt skills but to develop help skills; in fact, my wifes career as a Community and Residential Support Worker specializes in the care and comfort for her individuals that spans four decades and continues today in two full time employment positions in her field. When she and I speak about her clients the politically correct term we use is individual. Surely if I would have used that particular politically correct term you would probably not have had any idea what the comparison was about; most on this blog do not understand much of what I talk about when I use regular use of English prose. lol. So context is important when communicating.
I wrote an article one time for a news blog describing how religion in many historical instances using this sentence: Religious civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. when it was published the last par of the sentence read like this: it does not give impetus, it %#*@&$.
Another time I was describing how the governor on the old accelerator pedals controlled the speed to prevent the engine from over-speeding if the accelerator is depressed suddenly, politically correct today is probably cruise control. So in my explanation I described the purpose of the accelerator governor on the field tractor I drove to rake the hay for baling, was to retard the speed of the tractor, which eventually censored to read: was to $#@&% the speed of the tractor and so I end this commentary simply: there is no difference between the savant and the %$#@& savant when it comes to brainwashing.
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November 20, 2015 at 1:20 pm
Re: post # 33 —
You are in error. You’ve misjudged irony for contradiction.
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November 20, 2015 at 7:31 pm
Speaking of contradictions …
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November 20, 2015 at 8:05 pm
Follow the argument wherever it leads.
“Keep asking, and it will be given to you; keep seeking, and you will find; keep knocking, and it will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7)
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November 21, 2015 at 5:17 pm
I do not think so.
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November 22, 2015 at 5:00 pm
“Is not your fear of God your confidence, and the integrity of your ways your hope?” (Job 4:6)
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