Probably the most-cited argument against the existence of a theistic God is the logical form of the problem of evil, which argues that the existence of an all-good and all-powerful God is logically incompatible with the existence of evil because an all-good God would want to prevent evil and an all-powerful God could prevent evil, and yet evil exists. From this, it follows that God is not all-powerful, not all-good, or more likely does not exist at all. There could be a world in which God exists, or there could be a world in which evil exists, but there can be no world in which both God and evil exist. Since it’s empirically evident that evil exists, God does not.
Most people are unaware of the fact that this form of the argument has been definitively answered: God and evil can coexist without logical contradiction so long as God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil. Theologians differ, however, on what God’s morally sufficient reason is (or might be):
- Some argue that God allows evil because evil produces additional goods that would not be possible in a morally pure world, such as courage, compassion, and forgiveness. We shall call this the “new goods” view.
- Others argue that God is morally justified in permitting evil because each act of evil will be compensated by a good, even if the good is not as great as the evil it is compensating, not always identifiable, or not even realized in our lifetime. We shall call this the “compensation” view.
- Others argue that God is morally justified in permitting evil because each act of evil will be compensated by a greater good, even if the good is not always identifiable or even realized in our lifetime. We shall call this the “greater compensation” view. It differs from the former only in the amount of compensation we receive for each act of evil.
- Others have argued that God is morally justified in permitting evil so long as the total amount of evil in the world is eclipsed by the total amount of good; i.e. the good outweighs the bad (even if not every person experiences more good than evil). We shall call this the “more good” view.
Are these explanations satisfactory understandings of why God permits evil? Not surprisingly, skeptics don’t think so. For example, in William Lane Craig’s debate with Daniel Came, Came challenged the “new goods” characterization of God’s moral justification by asking how the evil of a young child suffering and dying from leukemia can be justified by the loving expressions of sympathy toward the grieving parents or the intense closeness the family may experience due to their mutual loss and shared suffering. While those new goods are truly good, surely they do not outweigh the evil of the child’s death! No parent would choose those goods over the good of their child’s continued life. While some good may come out of evil, it rarely seems to outweigh the evil itself.
While “new goods” are truly good and valuable, they do not seem worth the price of all the evil and suffering in the world. If you gave people a choice between (1) a world containing evil plus these extra goods and (2) a world devoid of evil as well as these extra goods, I surmise that most people would choose the latter. The goods of love, peace, joy, friendship, equality, honesty, kindness, generosity, beauty, loyalty, pleasure, and wisdom are plenty!
Came also challenged the “compensation” and “greater compensation” characterizations of God’s moral justification. He thinks it probable that some evils are gratuitous (pointless); i.e. they could be eliminated without eliminating any good in the world and without causing a greater evil. Examples of gratuitous evil include animals dying an agonizing death in a forest fire, being bit by a mosquito, or stubbing one’s toe. If even some gratuitous evils exist in the world, the “compensation” characterization of God’s moral justification must be false because there would exist some evils for which no good was realized.
The compensation views also suffer from their reliance on epistemic ignorance. It’s not possible to empirically verify that every act of evil is compensated by some good. Even if it was possible, the view holds that some goods may not be realized in our lifetime. How could such a view ever be confirmed or falsified? Even if we could prove that someone experienced more evil than good in their lifetime, the theist could always argue that the missing goods will be realized in the future in the life of someone else.
The greater compensation view also suffers from the problem of moral intervention. We have a basic intuition that we have a moral responsibility to prevent evil insofar as we are able. If each instance of evil produces a greater amount of good, however, then to prevent any instance of evil is to prevent a greater instance of good. It would seem reasonable, then, that the moral person should not intervene to prevent evil insofar as he is able, lest he prevent greater amounts of good in the world. Since this flies in the face of our basic moral intuitions, the greater compensation is most assuredly false.
What about the “more good” view? It’s not clear what is meant by the good “outweighing” evil. Are we referring to the number of acts, such that if there were 99 evil acts and 100 good acts, then good would outweigh evil? Or are we referring to the quality of the acts? Clearly some acts of goodness carry more moral weight than others. Risking one’s life to save the life of another carries more moral weight than the act of telling the truth. Likewise, some acts of evil carry more moral weight than others. Genocide is more evil than lying. If the world contained 99 acts of evil and 100 acts of goodness, but all 99 of those evil acts were acts of murder while all 100 of those good acts were acts of truth-telling, surely no one would suggest that the good outweighs the evil because the moral weight of those acts of evil outweighs the moral weight of those acts of good, even though there were fewer acts of evil.
Perhaps we ought to measure the amount of good and evil via a combination of both number and quality. This doesn’t seem to help, however. Our epistemic finitude prevents us from being able to obtain an accurate count and our lack of objectivity prevents us from being able to accurately identify the moral weight of each act. I fear that the limitations inherent within this enterprise leads to the tail wagging the dog. Those who have experienced more/worse evil than good are more likely to conclude that evil outweighs good and side with the atheists on the question of God’s existence. Those who have experienced more good than evil and are more likely to conclude that good outweighs evil and side with the theists.
Given the liabilities of these characterizations of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil, we ought to seek another.
Against a maximalist characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil
It seems to me that any characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil that requires a corresponding good for every instance of evil, or that requires the sum total of goodness in the world to exceed the sum total of evil overextends itself empirically, Biblically, and logically, and unnecessarily gives the skeptic reason to reject the theist’s defeater to the logical problem of evil, as well as a rational basis for positing the evidential/probabilistic form of the problem of evil.
Empirically Overextended
Empirically speaking, there are all sorts of instances of evil for which we cannot identify any corresponding good that was produced by it, or for which the good produced by the evil did not outweigh the evil itself. It’s true that our epistemic limitations may prevent us from identifying all the goods that have been or will be realized as a result of some instance of evil, but the fact remains that – from an empirical perspective – we have good reason to think that some evils are pointless or do not produce a corresponding/outweighing good.[1] While appealing to epistemic finitude may be enough to reduce the skeptic’s undercutting defeater to a mere rebutting defeater and save the compensation characterizations of God’s morally sufficient reason from refutation, it will not persuade most people. While it’s possible that there are goods produced by evil that we’ll never be able to identify due to our epistemic limitations, possibilities come cheap and do not give us reason to believe that it’s actually true.
Biblically Overextended
Biblically speaking, while God has promised to redeem evil, there is no promise that the total amount of good in the world will be greater than the total amount of evil, or that every instance of evil will produce some corresponding good. Romans 8:28 is often appealed to in support of these notions, but it fails to support the claims when examined more closely.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (ESV)
This verse promises that all things will work together for good, but says nothing about how much good will be produced (e.g. more than the amount of evil), when that good will be realized (in the present vs. the future), or even the relationship of good to evil (each evil act has a corresponding good vs. evil more generally will produce a general good). This verse is a promise that God will redeem evil for our benefit – nothing more. And it’s not even a principle that applies to all people, but only to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. Those who are not followers of Christ have no promise that they’ll experience any redeeming good from the evil they experience (though they might).
Logically Overextended
Logically speaking, there is nothing inherent to the notion of a morally sufficient reason that requires such a robust characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil. It merely entails that God have a morally justifying reason. There are other ways of characterizing God’s morally sufficient reason that could morally justify God’s permission of evil without committing ourselves to the idea that the good must outweigh the evil in the world or that every instance of evil must have some corresponding good. We would do well, then, to reject these maximalist characterizations of God’s morally sufficient reason in favor of a more minimalistic characterization that is not only more plausible, but is also able to undercut the skeptics’ rebuttals.
A minimalist characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil
I propose that minimally, God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil is that the possibility of evil is necessary for the possibility of loving relationships, and the ultimate good of a loving relationship with God in particular.[2] Free will is logically necessary for a genuine, loving relationship between God and humans because real love requires a real choice. Love is not the kind of thing that can be coerced or programmed. While we could program a robot to say and do things we associate with love, the robot would not experience or express genuine love. Love requires freedom, and freedom entails both the possibility of choosing to love and the possibility of choosing not to love; it entails both the possibility of choosing what is good or choosing what is evil. Free will is a moral good that allows for a loving relationship with each other and with God, but that good can also be used to defy God and hurt others.
God could prevent the possibility of evil in this world, but only by eliminating free will. That sounds great until we recognize that doing so would eliminate the possibility of love and goodness too, because the very thing that makes evil possible (free will) is the same thing that makes love and goodness possible. So God had a choice: prevent freedom to prevent evil, or create us with freedom so we could experience love. God knew that the good of love is morally superior to the horrors of evil, so He created free creatures that could choose both good and evil, and gave them the responsibility to choose rightly.[3] In other words, the possibility of experiencing a loving relationship with God and each other is worth the risk of people using their good freedom for evil purposes. To prevent the possibility of evil would prevent the possibility of love, and the good of love is worth the evils we experience. We don’t need to identify any particular good for every instance of evil, nor argue that the quantity or quality of good must exceed the evil to morally justify God’s permission of evil. The possibility of a loving relationship with God justifies any and every instance of evil. While God may have other reasons for permitting evil, the possibility of love is the supreme moral justification for permitting evil.
The evidential problem of evil
This characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil has the practical advantage of undercutting both the logical and evidential/probabilistic forms of the problem of evil. Whereas the logical form of the problem of evil argues that God’s existence is logically incompatible with the existence of evil, the evidential/probabilistic form only argues that God’s existence is improbable given the amount/kinds of evil that exists in the world. It’s said that if an all-loving and all-powerful God existed, we would expect less amounts and less grotesque forms of evil in the world. Since the amount and kinds of evil in the world are beyond what we would expect if an all-loving and all-powerful God exists, then such a God probably does not exist.
The argument assumes that the probability of God’s existence is tied to the amount/kinds of evil versus good in the world (ironically, that assumption is shared by theists who hold to the “more good” and “greater compensation” characterizations of God’s moral justification for permitting evil). If God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil is that the possibility of evil is a logical prerequisite for loving relationships, however, then the amount/kinds of evil in the world is irrelevant. Whereas maximalist conceptions of God’s morally sufficient reason – such as the “greater compensation” and “more good” views – empower the evidential argument from evil, the minimalist characterization I am proposing undercuts it. If God permits evil because it is the only way to make loving relationships possible (and this is the supreme good), then the amount/kinds of evil in the world is an irrelevant distraction. A loving relationship with God and each justifies any kind/amount of evil in the world. Even if the world contained twice as much evil and half as much good as it does, God would still be morally justified in permitting evil since the freedom to choose that evil is necessary to make loving relationships possible.[4]
Conclusion
While there are many possible reasons for which God allows evil, we ought to advance a minimalist characterization over maximalist characterizations. While there may be a corresponding good for every instance of evil, and while good may ultimately outweigh evil, such maximalist conceptions are not necessary to show that God is morally justified in permitting evil. A loving relationship with God is the ultimate good, and the possibility of such a relationship morally justifies God’s permission of evil in whatever form or amount. This understanding of God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil not only justifies God’s permission of evil, but also has the advantage of undercutting the evidential form of the argument against God from the problem of evil, and doesn’t require the theist to defend the impossibility of gratuitous evil. A freedom-permitting world that makes love possible may also be a world in which there is more evil than good, or a world in which evils exist for which there is no corresponding good.
See also:
- If God is good, why is there evil?
- The Question of Gratuitous Evil and the Evidential Problem of Evil
- Why is there so much evil in the world?
- Tied at the Hip: The Logical and Evidential Versions of the Problem of Evil
- A challenge to the free-will defense: Does heaven prove that God could have created free creatures who would not sin?
- Maybe God Could Have Created Free Creatures Who Could Not Sin
- Does evil prove there’s no God?
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[1]Some will say that for all we know, the good may manifest itself in the lives of people unknown to us in either the present or distant future. That’s true, but so is the reverse. For all we know, there may not be any good produced by the instance of evil – not even in the distant future. The blade cuts both ways.
[2]I do not pretend to be the originator of such a characterization. Alvin Plantinga defined the free-will defense in the mid-1970s and many others have proposed variations of it. I am merely suggesting that we favor this characterization of God’s morally sufficient reason over the others – not only because I think it is true, but also for the strategic purpose that it is open to fewer criticisms than the other characterizations. It may be true that there are no gratuitous evils because God will bring about a greater good for every act of evil prior to (or at) the end of this age. Likewise, it may be true that God’s morally sufficient reason for permitting evil is that the sum total of good will outweigh the sum total of evil in the end. And perhaps good reasons can be given for defending these maximal characterizations. My contention is simply that they are not necessary to answer the logical problem of evil, they invite unnecessary criticism, and they provide cogency to the evidential form of the problem of evil, and thus should be avoided in our apologetic.
[3]While God permits evil now, He will not continue to do so forever. There is coming a day of judgment where those who do not choose rightly will be held morally accountable for their evil choices and given the appropriate punishment.
[4]God cannot be held morally responsible for the amount/kinds of evil in the world because He is not the one committing those acts of evil. The amount/kinds of evil in the world is determined by the choices we make. God makes morally significant choices possible, but it is our use of our own freedom that determines how much evil is in the world. The amount/kinds of evil in the world can’t make God’s existence any more or less probable because the amounts/kind of evil in the world only tell us about human psychology, not divine ontology. God’s existence would be just as probable if humans chose evil twice as often as they in-fact have, because the amount of evil we choose to commit tells us nothing about God.
December 31, 2018 at 8:07 am
What Morally Justifies God’s Permission of Evil? The terms moral, justice, good and evil are human attributes and can only apply to a God that mankind has invented upon which to heap everything man thinks and behaves upon the creature of devise he invents. God therefore cannot be justified for the evil he renders because God’s prime objective is to defeat God’s nemesis, MAN! God is not for man; God is against man and has been ever since the WARNING contained in the Book of Genesis.
Does good and evil exist on Mars?; of course not. But why? Because man does not exist on Mars. Man use to exist on Mars until Global Warming and Climate Change reached critical mass on that planet. At that time manly attributes of greed, selfishness, despise of others and self love was rampant. Unfortunately when Mars became uninhabitable as the result of martian man’s greed, some escaped the martian fate in spaceships and migrated to Earth and began populating its sister planet. We see the results of Global Warming Climate Change now as space probes and photos of Mars surface reveal what Earth will look like in the future if we fail again to get God out of the Solar System.
However the problem is that when Martian Man arrived on earth to populate the planet he insisted on bringing God with him and God knows, right from the bible itself as written by the first martian men is a warning to mankind, God is against man and against whatever man does. And where man is, God is not far behind thwarting all man’s ambitious ventures that include living “at-one-ment”..uh uh. Behind every man is god rolling his eyes wondering what he is up to next.
God will not allow man to fulfill man’s destiny as noted in Chapter 11 from the Book of Genesis. Read it yourself, again for the first time with understanding. God is against everything man would accomplish and God will always throw evil roadblocks in front of man as man develops into the lovely creatures and beautiful Cosmic Gods we truly are designed to become, to be the Guardians to quard the Cosmic garden by deleting the evil that God continually throws in our path thwarting our rightful inheritance.
After the Martian Castastrophe brought on by the Martian God man WROTE the caution ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD as a warning in the very first Book of the Bible.
Read again the truth about God and his Roadblocks to confound the progress of Man’s Destiny which is to Eliminate Evil from the Cosmos.
Genesis Chapter 11, verses 1-9. HERE.
Llet me attach it for you so you don’t have to lift a finger to research it yourself.
GEN 11:1-9
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. (They would build a “Stairway to Heaven”)
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
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December 31, 2018 at 8:14 am
Stairway to Heaven
Led Zeppelin
There’s a lady who’s sure
All that glitters is gold
And she’s buying a stairway to heaven
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for
Oh oh oh oh and she’s buying a stairway to heaven
There’s a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
‘Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings
In a tree by the brook
There’s a songbird who sings
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiving
Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, it makes me wonder
There’s a feeling I get
When I look to the west
And my spirit is crying for leaving
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who standing looking
Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, it really makes me wonder
And it’s whispered that soon, If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter
If there’s a bustle in your hedgerow
Don’t be alarmed now
It’s just a spring clean for the May queen
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There’s still time to change the road you’re on
And it makes me wonder
Your head is humming and it won’t go
In case you don’t know
The piper’s calling you to join him
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll
And she’s buying the stairway to heaven
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December 31, 2018 at 8:15 am
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL:
All of us for One
One of us for all.
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December 31, 2018 at 8:19 am
The existence of evil is so often misunderstood. Evil does NOT equate with sin. It is simply a counterpoint and integral part of the creation. One person starving while another grows fat with an over-abundance are extremities of the physical reality. One must realize that God created both potentials but one must also realize that neither is relevant simply because death comes to all regardless of circumstances since the creation was intended to be temporary and mortal. It is the resurrection that matters….not how long or well one lives in the here and now. Consider the parable of the rich man (an inference to mankind in general since the man was not named) and Lazarus the beggar (deliberately named to equate with the faithful). Jesus is actually telling about the first and second resurrection. It is the beggar who obviously rises in the first resurrection to great reward in faithfulness. And, it is the rich man who rises in the second resurrection and looking up from the grave AFTER his resurrection (this is not a picture of consciousness in death), realizes he faces judgement with the “rest of the dead”. The “gulf” between Lazarus and the rich man is the gulf of time between the two resurrection events….the first event at the return of Jesus). This is not a parable about “heaven and hell”. And, it shows that suffering in this life isn’t all that relevant although it might seem so to those who suffer. Myself included.
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December 31, 2018 at 12:04 pm
Kim, you’re lapsing into one-paragraph mode again. Don’t you realize that a lot of people won’t read a glob of words for the simple reason that they’re hard to follow? Besides, since you obviously know how to create paragraphs, why do you revert to clumping everything together?
With respect to the topic, if an infinitely good God can be proved, then it follows that there is a morally justified reason for evil’s existence. Whether or not finite beings are able to discern what that reason is does not diminish the force of the argument.
Although the whys of evil may be an interesting academic exercise, it has no bearing on God’s existence.
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December 31, 2018 at 1:25 pm
“……if an infinitely good God can be proved, then it follows that there is a morally justified reason for evil’s existence. Whether or not finite beings are able to discern what that reason is does not diminish the force of the argument…..”
This has to rank as one of the best scholarly paragraphs ever written describing the meaningless, “If-this-then-that-follows” argument. Its syntax rolls off the tongue like blossoms in spring but which blossoms, short lived, withers and wilts when one’s inability to discern the reason of the argument that was devoid of reason in its formation, becomes astonishingly conspicuous by its absence. At the same time it reveals how a pseudo force cannot be diminished beyond the absence of its existence; a non existent value cannot logically be diminished(except possibly in math). It does however generate anticipatory excitement in the reading which is why this impotent argument is such a powerful example of nonsense.
“…….Although the whys of evil may be an interesting academic exercise, it has no bearing on God’s existence……”
God herself could not have dispensed with the “whys of evil” any better. Wonderfully efficient.
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December 31, 2018 at 8:31 pm
God can allow free will without having childhood leukemia.
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January 1, 2019 at 12:09 am
In the Spirit of the Season:
When you are a child, you have Santa Claus, Pere Noel, Saint Nicholas, among others. When you are an adult you graduate to God, Jehovah, Allah, among others.
Santa Claus is no more responsible for the Grinch than God is responsible for D’evil.
Santa and God are from the same Nation; The Nation of their existence is from the same place as the I-pad, the I-phone and the I-mac; in other words the I-nation, the I-mage in both cases is the I-mage I-nation or put ’em altogether and what do you have I-m-a-g-i-N-a-t-i-o-n. That’s where they both exist.
If you twist the letters in Santa you get Satan but Santa is not responsible for that. Either is God for D’evil.
It’s man stupid….Man.
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January 1, 2019 at 11:50 am
Well written argument, I like how free will is tied to the notion of the possibility of a loving relationship with God.
Well done and I agree with the basic premise of this argument.
Naz
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January 1, 2019 at 12:10 pm
God cannot be “proven” to exist…much less an “infinitely good God”.
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January 1, 2019 at 3:17 pm
@Kim
Yes, God’s existence can be proved and has been done several times over, but that’s not the topic of the main post. If an infinitely good God exists, then it follows that the existence of evil is morally justified.
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January 1, 2019 at 5:21 pm
Kim:
Evil can never be morally justified?
Why?
Because evil and moral can never occupy the same sentence supporting the same argument. They are contradictories.
NOT MUCH OF an argument “….If…..then…follows….(read folly)…..”; that is, the folly of manchild believers still in the Santa phase of anal retention.
“Speculative imagination has been proven several times over.” WTF-antasy!
Speculation is the hangup of believers that leads only to the hole of their own digging, the “Pit of Their Downfall” as a result of the hole they’ve been digging for the last 10,000 centuries and of them, Jesus said:
“…..Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’ In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’…they seeing do not see, hearing they do not hear lest they come to me and be healed from their lunacy……”
Nothing follows from speculation, absolutely nothing, follows from speculation except nonsense, nothing’s companion.
Here however, is an example of what follows…….. from TRUTH: And this is the new motto that will be written in the mindset and on the hearts in THE NEW ERA of the New Earth and the New Heaven when the old belief will vaporize, supplanted by knowledge:
“This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.”
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January 1, 2019 at 6:27 pm
“……but that’s not the topic of the main post……” OH GROAN…..YAWN…
Beware of nigglers who practice the letter of the law but neglect the spirit of the law.
Another way of countering the same demands was made by Jesus two thousand years to the ancestors of today’s niggler generation who insisted on keeping the ritual traditions of topic without deviation, without diversity, without discretionary discourse; maintain the status quo at all costs and throw it up in the face of those who dare delight in distinctiveness.
“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You burnish the surface of your cups and bowls so they sparkle in the sun, while the insides are maggoty with your greed and gluttony.
Stupid Pharisee! Scour the insides, and then the gleaming surface will mean something.
“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You’re like manicured grave plots, grass clipped and the flowers bright, but six feet down it’s all rotting bones and worm-eaten flesh. People look at you and think you’re saints, but beneath the skin you’re total frauds.
“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You build granite tombs for your prophets and marble monuments for your saints. And you say that if you had lived in the days of your ancestors, no blood would have been on your hands. You protest too much! You’re cut from the same cloth as those murderers, and daily add to the death count.
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January 2, 2019 at 6:11 am
Any diety that can be “proven” to exist is not the God of the Bible. That’s the main problem with religion….it rightly acknowledges that God exists then attempts defining its own diety. A false one.
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January 2, 2019 at 6:27 am
God defines both good AND evil. Not man. An “infinitely good god” is a constructed diety of your own making.
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January 2, 2019 at 7:50 am
Kim:
So true. And that is precisely what Jesus told the pseudo righteous that made a mockery of truth.
The Diety of life is not the Diety believers serve or are expected to serve; the Diety believers serve, is the Diety that reflects the positions of the “P” proponent’s false Diety they created to serve themselves.
They are the tails wagging the ritual Dogs. Stay on topic; stay on topic.
The “P” proponents (Priests, Prophets, Preachers, Pastors. Pharisees and Popes.
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January 2, 2019 at 8:09 am
Kim writes:
Any diety that can be “proven” to exist is not the God of the Bible.
That is just an empty statement. Nowhere does the Bible say that God cannot be proven to exist.
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January 2, 2019 at 11:23 am
Why would the Bible say to “prove God exists” when it clearly infers this is not needed from the very first verse? What the Bible does say concerning the existence of God is to caution against denying God’s existence and false gods……… Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
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January 2, 2019 at 11:30 am
You’re deflecting, Kim. You made the assertion that any deity that can be proven to exist is not the God of the Bible. That is not a scriptural assertion; it is an unsupported claim and is thus entirely unpersuasive. You do that quite often, as if your pronouncements are all that’s needed to prove your point.
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January 2, 2019 at 11:32 am
Moreover, Kim, you’re also dodging the main point: If God is infinitely good, then the so-called “problem of evil” is academic because it follows that evil is morally justified. That’s actually the point I am making, not this silly sidebar on whether the Bible prohibits the attempt to prove God’s existence to the ignorant.
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January 2, 2019 at 12:30 pm
I’m not dodging the point dear. Your if/then statement is based on a false presumption that God is “infinitely good”. Consequently, the use of the if/then statement is void and there is no need for me to response to it.
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January 2, 2019 at 12:40 pm
Kim:
Your meaning is so simple to understand. So I’ll spell it out for the babes in waiting.
By saying,
“Any Diety that can be “proven” to exist would not the God of the Bible”………
………. is, BECAUSE the God of the bible is man made and a false fabrication made in man’s image. at that. It says what it means and it means what it says. The bible’s God of the Desert is not a bonafide Diety.
I believe this went right over the head of some readers but is a perfect example of the FULFILLMENT of Isaiah’s saying: ‘Though seeing(reading), they do not see; though hearing(reading), they do not hear or understand.’
If they did understand what Kim meant they will surely not admit it because that would be an admission they have been wrong all their life, whoreshipping the false God of the bible; and that, while claiming to be a Christian and claiming to follow Christ who said exactly the same thing as Kim said, in so many ways, in so many words, that also went right over the indoctrinated bullheaded heads of his day and still goes over the caca del toro heads of this generation.
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January 2, 2019 at 12:41 pm
My statement was based on logic found within the Bible. If God can be proven by his creation then that diety is merely an extension of the creation. The God of the Bible is EXTRAnatural…not supernatural. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
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January 2, 2019 at 12:46 pm
Kim, you shouldn’t comment on a subject with which you’re unfamiliar. Disputing the premise has no bearing on the point. If the premise is true, the conclusion is true. If the assertion from a conditional is a certain conclusion must follow, then the cogent reply is either to agree or demonstrate why the conclusion does not follow the conditional. Disputing the premise is beside the point. If the premises are, “Some pigs have wings and all winged creatures sing,” and my interlocutor says that “therefore, some pigs sing,” necessarily follows, I would have to agree because, logically speaking, said conclusion must follow the premises. Disputing the premise itself misses the point.
The vast majority of Christians believe that God is infinitely good, and even many agnostics and atheists acknowledge that God, if He did exist, must be infinitely good. Thus, the so-called problem of evil is a non-starter in that light. God’s existence cannot be questioned by an appeal to evil.
Your objection that God is not infinitely good is simply an empty claim. You have not shown that from the Bible, and you haven’t shown that proofs for God’s existence are discordant with biblical teaching. And even if you were to biblically prove that God is both good and evil, you still haven’t touched my claim because I have only claimed that IF God is infinitely good, evil is morally justified. How many times does that have to be repeated?
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January 2, 2019 at 12:51 pm
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare (not “prove”) I unto you…………..Paul to Athenian scholars
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January 2, 2019 at 12:56 pm
If you had stated “innately good”, I might have agreed. However, the use of “infinite” in any form precludes logic except to infer the opposite which would be “infinite evil”. Good and evil are related to the creation. Not to God.
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January 2, 2019 at 1:31 pm
Again, Kim, you shouldn’t comment on subjects you’re ignorant of. “Infinite,” is commonly used in logical discussions and arguments. The oppose of infinite is finite. Since God is not finite, He must be infinite.
As to the other, you made the claim that the biblical God could not be proved. Again, that is an empty claim because you have not shown why God cannot be proved. You have not shown why the various proofs for His existence are discordant with biblical teaching. Even if God were not infinitely good, various proofs (e.g. Kalam) do not assert His infinite goodness (at least directly).
If you knew anything about “logic,” you wouldn’t make such empty claims.
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January 2, 2019 at 5:05 pm
Prove that God “IS” before you start giving her attributes.
The Flawed Presumptive Cosmological argument has been debunked ever since it was first used to prove that God Zeus existed ha,ahaha.
Then, the flawed, debunked Cosmological argument was adopted for Islam by Kalam and Christian Apologists have been running with it as proof of the Abrahamic variant God.
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January 3, 2019 at 6:20 am
My comments are hardly empty. Literal “infinity” cannot be proven simply because there is no end to define and as such infinity has no beginning. Limitless perpetuation from some beginning is NOT infinity….the best it can be is that it is a presumption. Simply because what begins can also end. Yet, you blithely claim to use the presumption of infinity logically. This is an oxymoron designed to confuse rather than elucidate. It is the worst form of attempting to define the undefinable God of the Bible and usually it is for some hidden agenda.
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January 3, 2019 at 7:10 am
Religion was formulated on wishful thinking and no belief has ever been more wrong than religion’s campaign of guilt-tripping sin.
Only the dogma of self appointed messengers of a created God, could have dictated and promoted religion to the world as a factual belief system. Religious belief systems have never been based on fact, nor can they be; otherwise, they would be knowledge based systems.
The following statements are the most inaccurate and ungodly assertions made and repeated ad nauseum in scripture. Can’t you just hear the monotone drone in the high chambers of cobwebbed columns echoing now?
“……….In God’s eyes, all of us are failures in who we are.
On our own, we have no hope of ever satisfying God’s demands for justice without going to Hell forever.
God made for us a great and certain hope in His Son, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins as to satisfy the demands of justice……….”
(These Statements of High crimes and misdemeanors are baloney)
The narrative was invented by religious zealots who then proceeded to give all the attributes of man to their created God thereby inventing a God created in the image of man. This reality is complete opposite of what they teach—— that man was made in the image of God ……….and “image of God” failures at that!
LET ME CORRECT THE ERROR OF OVERSIGHT:
All human beings are born with the Spirit of God(Life Forces) within them. Babies are not born in sin just because the founding, imaginative-driven religious zealots decided sin entered the world through sex. Human babies are born guilt-free and pure. “…..From the mouths of babes your praise is assured…..” AND “….Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven…..”
It was the church founding zealot leaders who, with their heartfelt resentment against life, first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw filth on the origin, on the Essential fact of our life. And wrote the story of Genesis to support the narrative.
So please grow up and get out of the fantasy adult Santa-God mode. Stop guilt tripping the world and the children about being failures because religion’s presumptive sexuality is original sin that forms the basis of religious psycho-imposed-agenda of fear, punishment and death, all human anxieties to be sure, but not because we are born failures.
Religion is the biggest failure that has ever cursed this world over the last ten thousand centuries. One has only to cast eyes upon and try to calculate the incalculable wealth of organized religious institutions around the world to understand the extent of the vault, their real agenda certifies.
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January 3, 2019 at 8:08 am
Kim blithely writes:
Literal “infinity” cannot be proven simply because there is no end to define and as such infinity has no beginning.
This shows you’re not paying attention. You think I’m talking about mathematical infinity? God is either finite or He is not. God is not finite; therefore, He is infinite. Why are you involved in a discussion you don’t understand? And who do you think you are to make blanket statements without supporting argumentation?
I’m going to keep reminding you since your memory is so short:
You claim that the biblical God cannot be proved. That is an EMPTY statement because you have not shown that God cannot be proved.
Since God is not dependent or limited, He is infinite by definition. However, if you believe that God is dependent and limited, then you definitely have a different god than the One Christians worship.
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January 3, 2019 at 12:32 pm
For the education and knowledge of the uninformed:
The Kalam Cosmological Argument,(KCA) by itself, is trivial. And proponents of this arguments almost always employ additional arguments to reach their conclusion.
Even if valid, the Kalam Cosmological Argument wouldn’t prove that a first cause existed.
Even if accepted as a sound argument, KCA doesn’t support theism and it certainly wouldn’t support the Abrahamic God anymore than it supported God Zeus.
KCA commits a subtle and devastating Equivocation Fallacy, It does this because the argument switches between two different definitions of the universe throughout its premises in order to achieve its conclusions.
In premise two, “The universe began to exist” the argument uses the scientific definition of the universe, that being, “all matter, space and time”.
BUT in premise three, “Therefore the universe has a cause” it uses the colloquial and/or theological definition of the universe; that being, “Everything that exists, everything that has existed, and everything that will exist.”
The scientific method says that all matter, space and time began to exist as it does now. It is not saying that absolutely everything came into being from absolutely nothing.
The colloquial/theological definition however says that absolutely everything came into being from absolutely nothing.
The KCA asserts Creatio Ex Nihilo (creation out of nothing) but the scientific definition says that everything we know about cause and effect, when a new thing is created it is due from the rearrangement of matter and energy that already existed: Creatio Ex Materia. (creation out of material)
The final flaw is not committed by the KCA itself but the proponents of this argument are essentially making; the Argument of Ignorance: The assertion that a proposition is true because it hasn’t been proven to be false (or vice versa)
What it all really comes down to is that since no explanation can provide a causal account of the origin of the universe, the cause must be a very specific god….a god that, wouldn’t you know, coincidentally is the god that the proponent believes in. That’s right…it all comes down to the extremely satisfying “we don’t know, therefore god!
Therefore for all created entities ever invented by man to explain what they cannot understand or even logically define evil can never be morally justified by Zeus or any other created God because to be moral is to have no cohabitation with evil. Evil and Morality are absolute contradictions in fact, in law and in the essence of the sanctity of life itself.
There can be no morally sufficient reason to justify evil; it is a repugnant proposition. Whoever would try to morally justify evil or make suggestions that evil could be morally justified for the God s/he believes in, is a moral moron by any standard of human decency.
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January 3, 2019 at 12:57 pm
Infinity is a mathematical construct. It is not a logical one. Else, it could be logically proven to exist. However, it cannot. You stated “Since God is not dependent or limited, He is infinite BY DEFINITION”. Consequently, you have defined your own diety and that definition was by way of mathematical presumption alone. The God of the Bible is NOT definable by you or anyone else. I would caution you that you’ve fallen into the same old trap that most human-centric religionists have.
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January 3, 2019 at 1:14 pm
Kim, you continue to make empty claims (statements made without supporting argumentation). If you deny that God is infinite, then by definition He is finite. That’s not the biblical God.
I haven’t defined my own deity; that’s where the logic takes any rational person. Either your God is finite or infinite; there is no other logical option.
You say:
The God of the Bible is NOT definable by you or anyone else.
Says whom? Where in the Bible does it say that God is not definable? You continue to make empty claims as if it shores up your bad argument. You either put up or shut up. If you had a biblical argument, you would have made it by now. You don’t, so you continue to deflect as if that compensates for your sloppy argumentation.
Moreover, the Bible calls God eternal (e.g. Heb. 9:14). Do you know what a synonym for eternal is? It’s the very word you deny applies to God. There is no limit to God’s existence, power or knowledge; hence, He is NOT finite.
It’s obvious you’ve dug yourself into a hole. The first rule of holes is you stop digging once you discover you’re in one.
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January 3, 2019 at 1:36 pm
kim says:
“It is the resurrection that matters….not how long or well one lives in the here and now.”
“God cannot be “proven” to exist…much less an “infinitely good God”.”
I’m not familiar/haven’t read many of your posts so could you briefly clarify/harmonize these quotes of yours. if you believe in a resurrection aren’t you in the supernatural camp ? do you believe in God but believe He cannot be proven to exist ?
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January 3, 2019 at 7:00 pm
If one could use the bible to prove the bible then why can not one use one’s Post on this site to prove what post describes.
God is finite or infinite there are no other options says s/he who limits the options. a third obvious option is that there is no God; a fourth option is a God that exists in the mind of s/he who defines the characters in the Book s/he writes.
The Author(s) of the Bible defines the characters the author describes and gives the character the attributes required to weave the web of words. The star of my novel is defined by its authors/he may be a literature professor with secret powers of Kent Clark.
It cost just a dime (10 cents) in 1938 and just sold for a record $3.2 million — a near perfect copy of the first comic book starring iconic hero Superman.
Prophecy:
One day as the fires of Christianity numbers wane into mere glowing embers as more and more people come to their senses and/or as the generations die down and rise up a vain attempt will be made to fabricate another and a hitherto unknown New Gospel to regenerate dying Christianity. This tactic will not be the first time. We have the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene generating gossip galore and one day there will come………. timpani roll pleasseee……THE GOSPEL OF JESUS…….coming to a museum near you.
It’s forger easy, era-authenticate and carbon date the scroll and ink.
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January 3, 2019 at 8:03 pm
LTG ……. as Christianity wanes so will the belief in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth you approve of and promote here.
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January 3, 2019 at 9:27 pm
PaulV:
That’s a good and thoughtful question but I submit that is not correct because Jesus and Christianity have little in common. if Jesus came back and he saw what people had made of his teachings, he’d quickly realize that nobody had listened to a word he said, that he was wasting his breath and that he’d wasted his life.
Which even in his time he asked this question of the future: “…when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth”?
Christianity has hung Jesus up; given him a musty connotation, made him sort of drip religion.But Jesus is not a stain glass window, sort of, with a halo hanging around his neck but that’s all Jesus represents to Christianity.
Christianity will die; Jesus will live on.
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January 4, 2019 at 7:37 am
By way of explanation………..I don’t use “supernatural” since that would be a human-centric extrapolation. I do use extra-natural. Defined as being outside the creation or “uncreated”. Having existed from eternity, such a reality exists on into eternity. This definition includes an acknowledgment of God, angels and an innumerable other Host in a Kingdom of greater reality than the creation (ie/no beginning and no end). Such acknowledgment is by choice I do not see any reason to “prove” it since the concept of “God” is fundamentally hardwired into the human genome (there has always been “god” in some form throughout history). Since such an extra-creational reality is beyond human comprehension, it is just as impossible to disprove it. And, impossible to define. Consequently, I choose acknowledgement just as science chooses to acknowledge the existence of extra-terrestrial life in the complete absence of evidence. I do not claim to be “Christian” simply because I refuse to define the undefinable as most religion does, even though I acknowledge its existence. However, I do see the Bible as being written by people who share my view and since the Bible mentions resurrection, I see no reason to dispute it.
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January 4, 2019 at 7:58 am
When Moses asked God “whom shall I say sent me?”, God simply shrugged and said “I am who I am”. Just tell them “I am” sent you. This was not a definition of who God was or even an attempt at personification. It was a way of God saying I am an absolute singularity, without need for individualistic nomenclature. There’s only one of ME. Anyone attempting the effrontery of exceeding such a simple explanation falls into the trap of making their own god rather than describing an absolutely singular Entity who because of such singularity has no need for categorization.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
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January 4, 2019 at 8:28 am
Kim, you’re attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole. None of the Scriptures you cite state that God is undefinable or that it is prohibited to prove God’s existence—which is what you’re contending. If that’s the best you can come up with, your assertion flops.
You write:
Anyone attempting the effrontery of exceeding such a simple explanation falls into the trap of making their own god rather than describing an absolutely singular Entity who because of such singularity has no need for categorization.
But God didn’t say that, you did. Moreover, who is “categorizing” God? We don’t argue that God is in a class or division of things sharing characteristics. You don’t have a sweet clue what we argue concerning the existence of God. Are you just pulling stuff out of your backside? The heavens declare God’s glory and handiwork (Ps. 19) and God’s nature is understood by the things that are made (Ro. 1:20). Creation shows that God is, that there is one God (and that there can only be one God), that God is almighty and unique among all beings.
Countering that God’s ways are higher than ours sloppily commits a fallacy of relevance. No Christian argues otherwise. Since man can understand God’s power and nature by the things that God has made, God’s thoughts and ways being higher than ours are not relevant to the question. AGAIN, you made the contention that the biblical God cannot be proved. You have thus failed to demonstrate why that is so which is why your claim is empty.
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January 4, 2019 at 9:44 am
Once again, you have put forth the idea that God can be personified through extrapolation from the creation. It is a human-centric idea. Not a biblical one. The creation points to God but does not personify Him. God is NOT “supernatural”. He is EXTRA-natural. As Creator, God must be unimaginably above what we as part of the creation can perceive and understand. To acknowledge anything other than that is to make a false claim and to construct a false diety from one’s own limited perception
Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God AT ANY TIME, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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January 4, 2019 at 10:33 am
Kim writes:
Once again, you have put forth the idea that God can be personified through extrapolation from the creation.
You need to look up the word personify. I attribute no human characteristic to God. Once again, Kim, you’re deflecting.
As Creator, God must be unimaginably above what we as part of the creation can perceive and understand.
And, once again, God didn’t say that, you did. Not only are those words not in the Bible, they make no rational sense. To state that something “must be unimaginably above…” this or that is to assert knowledge of that something. If you possess no knowledge whatsoever of the “something,” then you have no rational basis to make any claim about it. You cannot say that milk doesn’t taste like Pepsi unless you know the taste of both. If you possess no knowledge of Pepsi, you have no basis to make any claim about it. Of course, you already did that when you asserted that God is “extra-natural.” You have thus defined God as….extra-natural—the very thing you said could not be done and since you define Him as such, you must know what “extra-natural” means—else, you’ve added to your incoherence.
Moreover, nobody rational person here claims to have ever “seen” God “at any time,” so that hangs your Scripture citation irrelevantly in midair.
It’s obvious your in face-saving mode, Kim. You’re fooling nobody here. You made a baseless assertion and have failed to prove it. You’re firing blanks with your sloppy arguments. Repeating yourself won’t plug the hole in your bucket.
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January 4, 2019 at 10:37 am
Kim:
I want to commend you for explaining your understanding without using language to denigrate those who disagree with you.
Your assertions don’t flop and I submit you are not pulling stuff out of any place different than where your adversaries are pulling stuff out of. Speaking spiritually using physical slurs seems immature, academic perhaps but immature nonetheless.
Your ideas are fantastic. Most fantastic ideas however are made personal by humans which is a big problem with theism that suggest humans and the higher powers in a personal relationship; that may be so from a human perspective but dies there too. I don’t know if you believe or expect a personal relationship with your fantastic entities as Christians demonstrate they do by their prayers and finger beading, henpecking, flagellation, suffering, fasting and the like
“The Higher Powers from where I sit, I liken to Gravity: gravity doesn’t care more for the man that falls off the mountain than the rock that falls from the mountain; the effect is not personal to the man or the rock, gravity just is.
Therefore, never pray to gravity, the universe, supernatural or extra-natural entities; they do not respond to human requests for intervention. Gravity like caricature concepts of god, angels and like, loves no more or less the man who defies it not and loves no less or more the man who does defy it”..ltg
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January 4, 2019 at 10:44 am
Kim writes:
The creation points to God but does not personify Him.
And again, God didn’t say that, you did. The Scripture clearly states that God’s eternal power and nature are “clearly seen” by the things that are made. Creation doesn’t merely “point” to Him (in the sense that you mean it); it discloses God’s nature and power.
And, if creation merely “points to” God, in what sense does it point to Him? Does it not show that God created it? Thus, we understand that creation has a Creator. If creation has a Creator, then by definition the Creator is uncreated. If the Creator is uncreated, then the Creator is not contingent and the creation, by definition is contingent. You see? we’re already learning a lot about the Creator. For some bizarre reason, you feel compelled to force your paradigm onto reality rather than let reality define your paradigm. There’s a word for that, but I’ll refrain from typing it.
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January 4, 2019 at 3:13 pm
LTG ….. only a tiny minority would follow a supernatural free Jesus. without a resurrection there’s no incentive to accept the self sacrifice to benefit others.
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January 4, 2019 at 4:36 pm
Paul V
If you can separate the two; what is more worthy, the life one puts on the line or the death that results from doing so?
If two people put their lives on the line and one dies and one lives is not the moral equivalency in their offering not the offering itself
To me the worth of Jesus was the fact that he was willing to put his life on the line by calling out the religious scoundrels who were misleading the masses AND making a mockery of the God they claimed to speak on behalf of.
The fact that Jesus rose from the place of the dead, alive, does not take away from the fact he put his life on the line.
Jesus gave similar answer when he indicted the Pharisees in Matthew 23; the entire chapter is the Indictment in general but in particular to your question he said to the Pharisees:
“….Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?”
And while we are on this subject of resurrection, what was the sign that Jesus said was the only sign he would give them?
Now regarding the resurrection that you believe is the cornerstone of Christianity; well, maybe it is, but the cornerstone never happened further than what than the explanation below.
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Can you understand the parallels in the two? I submit that was the crucial sign Jesus gave about his being raised from “the place of the dead” not from the dead, just as Jonah survived his ordeal in the battle in the raging sea before being washed up on shore not by a whale but by a wave aND SURVIVED being risen FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD, SHEOL. Jonah did not die neither did Jesus and he appeared alive! That freaked the disciples out to be sure. After the ordeal he did not stay around that area any longer than he had to, to arrange an entourage and essentials for the long overland journey away from that perverse country. He left his mark and he left the story behind, forever.
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January 4, 2019 at 5:07 pm
Kim, and IYO there’s a big difference between “supernatural” and “extra-natural ?” IMO based on your definition there’s no difference. A dead person being pulled out of a lake and being brought back to life is not “extra-natural” that’s with in the realm of the natural.
Assuming God exists for discussion — to understand God is impossible but gives attributes to God (which is similar to defining Him) is not impossible.
Now to “prove” God exists the obvious question is to what degree. Let me just use a quick example — I’m commanded to not seethe a kid in it’s mother’s milk. Can I seethe a kid in milk that doesn’t belong to it’s mother ? I say I just proved I can. A jew/messianic would say no I haven’t. the jew would probably be very kind but condescending and the messianic would most likely go bat shit crazy. So they would never change their minds, I would if either made a good argument why I shouldn’t seethe a kid in any milk product but unless some new information was brought to my attention according to the letter and spirit of that rule —- I can seethe a kid in milk as long as it doesn’t belong to it’s mother. The point of that was to show some people will not accept any proof that goes against what they believe —- and that goes for all kinds of people whether they are theists or atheists or agnostic/new atheists.
what most atheist/new atheists do is pick the worst argument for God from theists and deny all of the problems with an atheistic world view and state as fact God doesn’t exist but couch it with we see no evidence of the existence of God. Usually because they have a bee in their bonnet about something in the bible like homo sex is an abomination/kill all of the inhabitants of the land I’ve given you/etc….. denying the fact of how homos are described in the bible/what the inhabitants of the land were doing. two gay guys doing it in a relationship is a lot different from a rape gang roaming the streets. to one I say not my cup of tea/even if inclined I’d refrain based my interpretation of the NT and to the other I say that’s an abomination. And what the inhabitants of the land were doing (eg. sacrificing their children by fire to their god) is also an abomination.
you say you don’t dispute the resurrection so would you agree with me —- God allows evil because He can repair everything after the resurrection ? because the argument you made I understand as evil is just part of creation which would be identical to an atheistic world view. As some one that went through a kind of agnostic phase the presence of evil is a really big deal —- it would be a contradiction if not for the resurrection. And your statement (ie evil is just part of creation) appears to me to be a contradiction with your belief in the “extra-natural” and supporting the atheistic position.
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January 4, 2019 at 5:23 pm
Paul V
Jesus was supernatural-free; nevertheless, they followed him. But not all the time and not just because they accepted what he idid as miracles. The supernatural among the masses more often than not was in the heads of the masses because the Pharisees stuffed down their throats that if they couldn’t understand it, it was supernatural because the Pharisees indoctrinated the masses to accept that miracles were from God; AKA, Magic tricks were what the Pharisees and all religious leaders used to trick the masses.
But listen to this piece that Jesus said, about following Jesus because of miracles, the supernatural:
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
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January 4, 2019 at 8:17 pm
LTG ….. but your Jesus faked his death. nobody would’ve have heard of a Jesus with out the supernatural aspects. and as numerous atheists/new atheists have informed me most of my Jesus’ teachings were previously taught by others. the biggie of my Jesus’ teaching, that I’m not aware of being taught, is love your enemies and do good to those who hate you. that teaching only makes sense from my Jesus because there is a reward in the resurrection. you die following that teaching and you are sol. and if we die and there’s no after life I could care less how humanity does because they are just going to die and rot in the grave too if you’re right.
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January 4, 2019 at 8:33 pm
LTG ….. but your Jesus didn’t do any miracles. miracles are of the supernatural/”extra-natural” realm that you don’t believe in. so either they are lies or as you’ve explained previously your Jesus saw a faker and pulled him up so the faker said hey you healed me and stood up straight and others said He performed a miracle but all your Jesus did was expose a faker according to you. some of these teaching by my Jesus are to show follow Him for the Kingdom sake don’t follow Him for a free lunch. because when He left only the true believers would continue His work. those hangers on would split because they are not getting anything here and now from Him. my Jesus promised His followers they would be rewarded not just in this world but the next.
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January 4, 2019 at 9:50 pm
True Jesus did not do any miracles. You are only citing one example of what may have happened to explain the faker’s miracle..Jesus did not expose the faker…but that was an explanation; there could have been others but that’s the obvious one that makes the most sense to moi.
There are other events that were apparent miracles but if you are believer, bent on the skewed view of Christianity in general and Saul in particular (who coincidentally was a Pharisee and raised up believing in the resurrection ), despite the fact never having met Jesus and almost single handed kept the story going; and, if you are supernaturally prone then you would not not lift a brain cell to think how and why an event occurred. Feeding thousands, water into wine and the death on the cross; that’s your biggie and the eventual appearance to the disciples when :
Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, alive, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a ghost.
And he said unto them, Why are ye fearful?
it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
I believe that Jesus put his life on the line by exposing the religious frauds who use magic to dupe the masses and who care nothing for the disabled , the poor, downtrodden etc.. If you want to know how the religious leaders acted read the entire Jesus indictment. The full chapter of Matt 23 has it.
And so in John 7:1 “After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. John 7:7 The (religious) world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.”
I don’t claim that Jesus faked his death; but I believe that his best friends, knowing what was going to happen, took steps to intervene to prevent his death. I also believe that Jesus was told of their plan to protect him so he could survive the crucifixion and restart his life if they were successful. If they were unsuccessful and he died, there would never have been a “resurrection” ,
However the intervention was successful and because one of the friends who had been planning and prepping over two years for that inevitable day the well engineered plan, that remains a secret until my time of understanding, worked according to plan. Jesus was removed from the cross, as dead (but alive), immediately prepared in the tomb and the tomb sealed to avoid any viewing.
Then………… (but not in its entirety)….to be cont’d.
The whole event is clear as a bell in my vision and the movie would be a monumental (Christian boycotted) box office hit surpassing the Ten Commandments. I am currently looking for an Executive Producer…….hold that thought……
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January 4, 2019 at 9:55 pm
Paul V
Thou doth protest too much. “This above all: to thine own self be true
And it must follow, as the night the day
Thou canst not then be false to any man
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January 5, 2019 at 7:59 am
Evil is simply an aspect of the creation. If a person drowns, that’s evil. However, it isn’t a sin unless somebody held that person’s head under the water and committed murder. In that case, the murderer would be an evil person. Evil is summed up in two words……sh*t happens. But, don’t blame God. Most religions do! Which makes God out to be some kind of trick-or-treat entity that acts on whim. This idea comes from paganism. Not the Bible.
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January 5, 2019 at 11:33 am
Studying the Nature of Evil reveals a startling conundrumGods don’t kill people; people with Gods kill people; Or:
Gods don’t heal people; people with pagan placebos heal people..
Could it be said:
The only difference between paganism and the bible is that
The Bible is paganism is written down; chiseled in stone.
Good is summed up in two words…..Food and Mom.
God is a metaphor for everything man experiences, knows, believes and conceives and alligators are a bunch of croc…..
However, people that were first infected with cowpox were immune to smallpox! Dr Jenner invented the word ‘vaccination’ and his discovery led to the science of immunology. His work saved a massive amount of lives and led, in 1980, to the World Healthy Organisation (WHO) to declare that ‘the world and its peoples’ were free from common smallpox. It is the only infectious disease in history to have been completely removed from nature by mankind in the same sense that dinosaurs were removed from nature by mankind.
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January 5, 2019 at 2:46 pm
Dinosaurs were long gone by the time mankind came on the scene in the Genesis creation event. Which was NOT the creation of the Universe. The Bible describes the saurian ages as the beast “that was” (prehistoric), and “is not” (extinct) and “yet is” (fossil fuels). The goo from the bottomless pit (seemingly inexhaustible quantity from the ground). The goo that “goes to perdition” (is used for combustion). The goo that creates “smoke to darken the sun” (smog). The goo which has an “image of the beast” (mimicry of life…..cars, planes, ships, etc). The goo which has a unique identifier of “666” (6 molecular compounds, hexagonally shaped (organic) comprised of the 6th element (carbon…the basis of all life on earth). The goo by which an entire world civilization’s commerce is traced by a “mark” (path….roads, skyways, shipping lanes). The goo by which men “wonder” (invent wonderous things).
Ever consider that saurian gigantism was for the express purpose of containing enough organic matter to bury an entire prehistoric ecosystem in anticipation of just the world we now live in? Dinosaurs were repositories of the energy we now use and this was specifically planned to bring a population explosion to mankind. Why? Its plain to see that mankind was created to eventually replace those who rebelled against the very God atheists claim to reject but have no basis in doing so.
There’s more to the Bible than can be imagined. The above is statistically indisputable as a witness of its authority and is just a small example of what should be a terrifying read. The Bible isn’t a book of religion. It isn’t a primer for how to live. Its a book of condemnation against mankind and will be used in the day of judgment. We are being warned.
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January 5, 2019 at 3:01 pm
Oh I forgot the caveats in Post 55…….oh well you all can fill in the blanks
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January 5, 2019 at 6:32 pm
Kim:
“The goo by which an entire world civilization’s commerce is traced by a “mark” (path….roads, skyways, shipping lanes). It…….forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads…..” I looked in the mirror and behold I saw the I-90 light up light the luminous virgin Mary Statue on my wife’s night table 🙂
Your “Goo” theory, Image of the Beast and 666 theory is incorrect. Fantastic but incorrect nonetheless. The reason? Your theory occurs before the bible was written and you try to use the bible to substantiate, decode, interpret and support your theory that cannot be supported by a book that was not written until a million years after the event.
My theory on the other hand is correct and it is correct because it is based on information found in the bible and therefore substantiated by the biblical record, understanding and decoding found in the bible. None of your theory is biblical nor can anything in your theory be biblical.
You draw phrases and terms from the bible to fit your fantasy that is a fabrication completely outside the bible and therefore completely irrelevant to the bible. An attempt to give credence to your incredible fantasy but nowhere does the bible talk about goo or dinosaurs or hexagonally shaped elements.
Here is a mathematical reason why your theory is incorrect and an unsound application of the transitive property of equality
IF A=B and B=C therefore A=C; that is the property of equality.
Your saying in effect:
If A = B and B = C therefore A = C then A = X, B = X and C = X.
The biblical A’s, B’s and C’s cannot support your theory of X because X is external to the bible and has no hint for your theory X.
My theory of the A’s, B’s and C’s of the bible that can make sense to others is correct because my theory is alluded to elsewhere in the bible and necessarily must, in order to be put forth for review; it’s called connecting the dots.
My story is based on the dots in the bible connecting with other dots in the bible.
Your story is made purely from imagination and takes phrases and terms from a book that has credibility, the bible, and tries to match them with phrases and terms in your story to make your story appear plausible by association. It cannot stand:
Your theory tries to connect the A, B, C dots inside the bible with the X, Y, Z dots in your story that cannot possibly make sense to anybody but yourself because they are mutually exclusive. They do not meld and cannot meld and cannot be shown to be able to meld by any supporting association.
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January 5, 2019 at 9:20 pm
LTG ….. I’m just stating your beliefs as you have stated them to me. Please clarify if I’m miss stating what you have said
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January 5, 2019 at 10:01 pm
Paul
I answered you in Post 52. Yesterday. What you are repeating to me are not the words I stated to you, You can paraphrase and send your paraphrase back to me because paraphrasing twists my words to your words to suit the impression of the reader. I said nothing about lies; I did not say Jesus faked his death and what happens after death I don’t know anymore than you know.
Did you know that you can have a resurrection while you are alive in your mind if you have a revelation that you never knew before? Like being “Born again?
“…my Jesus promised His followers they would be rewarded not just in this world but the next….” Really then what is that reward, and where will it be? The only heaven Jesus described was the heaven within you and for that heaven to be within you that’s when you are alive.
Did you know that people who are stuck in the realm of supernaturalism are actually walking “dead” while yet alive and when understanding Jesus message and where heaven is and who lives in and resides in that heaven where Jesus described don’t you think that is a resurrection, “within you”.
So tell me what is the reward Jesus promised you, as a follower, which I presume you are expressing to be?
And where is that “place” you think the followers of Jesus are going?
And how would you know what and where that place is when you don’t even know about the Kingdom Jesus described. I think you are lost in your own inability to understand what Jesus was all about and I am not surprised because most of the Christian world missed it too because the Pharisee Paul who was brought up believing in some supernatural world got everybody convinced about the Pharisaical supernatural resurrection just like the writers of the Gospels said
Matthew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
Is that the resurrection you are talking about and if so what happened to the resurrected, did they die again? Or is this just an example of writers who made stuff up?
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January 5, 2019 at 10:07 pm
Kim ….. it’s sad not evil if a person drowns by “accident” — that’s sh*t happens. to murder somebody by holding them under water is evil — that’s got nothing to do with sh*t happening. I don’t blame God because sh*t happens. some may blame God because their child died by drowning in their pool but I wouldn’t, I’d blame myself if I was supposed to watch him/her. the biggie for me and many others I’ve talked with is why let the murderer run around and drown people ? even crappy parents child proof their home and take all kinds of precautions to keep their children safe from hazardous situations and dangerous people —- so why not God ? why can’t God uproot the tares without damaging the wheat ? Christian apologetics on why God allows evil are not very strong and if not for the resurrection where this wrong can be fixed imo we lose the argument.
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January 5, 2019 at 10:15 pm
Paul V
Furthermore, I know Jesus survived the ordeal of the cross. How do I know? Because the bible tells me so, Jesus predicted it so and when he appeared after the cross, sufficiently healed from the ordeal, he appeared and told the disciples that it was he, alive muscle and bone and not a spiritual Ghost. But what do Christians say about? Oh jesus “appeared” to the disciples by walking through the wall or through the door because the words said Jesus appeared in the midst of them and that means to Christians of supernatural bent that he walked through the walls or the doors or simply puff-puffed, now you see me, now you don’t, look here I am.
Can you imagine the raising from the graves opening and the walking through walls a lie more gargantuan that those fallacies by men who yet remain in the folly? of snake oil salesmen perpetuating magic tricks of Old Testament devise to prove they were messengers of the true God and Pharaoh kicked Moses and Aaron out of the King’s Court after their ridiculous trick that the prophet, “on behalf of God” told Moses that the Lord told him to perform the snake miracle for Pharaoh?
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January 5, 2019 at 10:22 pm
LTG ….. dude I’m not twisting anything. that was a scenario you told me a long time ago. are those your exact words — no but that sums up your explanation perfectly. do you remember that comment ? state it again as you think it should be stated. may be this will refresh you memory — some body lying on the ground pretending they are paralyzed, Jesus observes something that shows that person isn’t paralyzed and goes over and takes that person by the hand and …..
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January 5, 2019 at 10:30 pm
LTG ….. you don’t like faked his death ? please let me know what saying I should use ? the lashing He received + being nailed to the cross hands and feet + getting stabbed in the side with a spear and even if it’s 3 days and 3 nights it would be a miracle for Him walking to Emmaus. but may be it didn’t happen that way so it would be no big deal for Him to take that hike
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January 5, 2019 at 11:15 pm
Evil has always been rampant in the hearts of men and that’s why the entire Old Testament penalties were based on the “ye for an eye”, “tooth for a tooth” model. It was the revenge theory based on the reaction of people generally, slap me and I slap you back. So the Old Testament fellows. not knowing any better modeled their system on from that and took is many steps further when they introduced penalties for sins they believed to be so gross to their sense of self righteousness starting with the first four religious decrees for which disobedience to those decrees the penalty was death, the ultimate capital penalty and for the remaining six social sins Moses chiseled into stone and man y other sins which were chiseled into Deuteronomy and Leviticus, especial,y the sexual sins. OMG where did that dirty stuff come from. Well the Garden of Eden of course and then we have a guilt laden trip on every person born but for the wealthy who could afford to buy indulgences to be absolved of sin.
That’s what Jesu revolution was all about b ringing love into the picture as it was supposed to be but changing a two, three, five thousand year old indoctrinated doctrine was no mean feat for Jesus; nevertheless, against the status quo, fraught with danger, he persevered and his best friends secretly prepared for the day of intervention as best they could, knowing he would eventually pay for his campaign that upset their well worn security.
If you would just read the pages without a supernatural skew, the pieces will fall into place so neatly like a jigsaw puzzle coming together, melting all the illusions, delusions and confusion of church collusion away, revealing the bare truth how all the pieces of Jesus’s messages fit into a spiritual regeneration not unlike the reward of resurrection, in OWR life-time. (You can read about “OWR” time by clicking on my user ID but it’s more lengthy than my posts 🙂 )
And I am unanimous in that and I believe that I would not have known that by any means other than a personal campaign that began at 12 years of age when I sat reading the red-lettered gospel words over and over and over until I began grasping the pieces and pulling them inside my memory while the droning drum-hum of the Priest’s mea culpas and latin laced language provided a steady monotone background leading up to the Sunday sermon which I never remembered amidst the swirl of words in red that seemed to be clicking into a sequences that only a DaVinci code enthusiast would have dreamed about. As for me, I could do no more than let the spirit guide until the magic missal would be given me at the next Sunday session in my young life…….
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January 6, 2019 at 2:15 am
Yes I remember the scenario I posted about that possibility because in those days as it still is today some people feign a disability because it can be more lucrative than a regular working income for an unskilled worker. Why would you wait years to bring it up again? Nevertheless, I will research my writings and when I find it I’ll repost it for you.
But that’s not the only thing you said. you said Jesus faked his death and I did not say Jesus faked his death. My submission is that Jesus’s two best friends knew he was walking on dangerous grounds that could him get him killed so his best friends, wanting to mitigate such an event if it did come to pass, worked out a plan.
And I submit that Jesus did not know about his friends’ plan, at least not until the last days before the crucifixion, if at all, when the last vote was final and ready, set, go: the Judas betrayal, the date, the time, the place, the imminent arrest and the method agreed on for a public crucifixion to deter any followers who may have intentions of continuing what the Jewish Council viewed as sedition against them.
I further contend that when the Sanhedrin decided to give the order to execute the Khashoggi-style detainment, was the time that Jesus was made aware of the place, date, time, betrayal, arrest and the public crucifixion AND it was at that same time, if at all, that Jesus was made aware of the friends’ plan to intervene. When this last advisement meeting took place was at what is commonly called the Transfiguration.
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January 6, 2019 at 2:54 am
FOUND IT PAUL
HYPERLINK “https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/the-historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-a-short-case/” \l “comment-54020” April 8, 2016 at 2:45 pm
Paul: The problem with the entire Jesus scenario is that his followers missed the message about everything Jesus ever did or said with the supernatural which was the dominant belief of the Scribes and Pharisees. What the bible says does not necessarily mean that’s what Jesus said. For example I would like to know what supernaturalism is found in the New Testament that you mentioned. What supernatural feats are you talking about? Beggars pretending they were crippled so they did not have to work and were fed with handouts from the people like social assistance; that still goes on today. So if Jesus wanted to start ridding society of false narratives do you think he might have threatened to reveal that the cripples were not crippled or the blind were not blind and so to avoid being ostracized for their dupery the cripples and the blind claimed miraculous intervention by Jesus and they chose to get up and dance around as though miraculously cured or suddenly someone operating on the pretense of being blind from birth, rather than being found out, chose the more acceptable way out “It’s a miracle”, now they see. Jesus did not believe that the God he talked about was an external being nor did he believe that the Kingdom was an external State. IT’s why he quite emphatically pointed that out when he told the Pharisees that the Kingdom does not come by observation, or see it’s out in then desert or in the inner chamber; in other words, in some physical space….NO! he said the Kingdom(where God resides), IS WITHIN YOU. The Father who dwelt in Jesus is the same Father who dwells in everybody, if you acknowledge that simple truth Jesus spoke. However the dogma that the society was indoctrinated by for thousands of years full of supernatural gibberish and wizardry permeated the mindset of the masses and carried right over into Christendom as we well know from stories about the Lady of Fatima and other apparitions. Charlatans love the supernatural and they in their time practice dupery like they invented the witching hour. This perpetuation goes on every time the Pope bestows sainthood on the dead because it requires miracles by the person who gets exalted in the Saintly Circle and so hearsay gains a foothold and miracles are whispered and then shouted for the world to confer its blessings. Tell me please what supernatural events you believe Jesus performed or was performed in his name. Voices booming in a haze of smoke and mirrors as written about countless times throughout the bible? From Moses on down the line? This is my beloved son booms the voice to some….while others said it was only thunder rolling through the atmosphere. I have never seen Jesus or his mother in a potato, in a piece of pizza or in a tree stump but lots of people have seen it apparently. I would love to know what supernatural events are supported by Jesus or that he even believed as the Pharisees about the resurrection of the dead, from the tombs of dead mens bones. Jesus message was that the Father operates in human experience but who believes that? Not Christians certainly because they haven’t learned a thing about Jesus that is not akin to Pharisaical belief same as Paul in Acts, he was born and raised as a Pharisee and boasted about it at his own trial. I found a most interesting quote that sums up institutional people be they Religious Institutions or Government institutions they talk the same talk but never walk, the walk they talk, but that they are born to repetitiveness rhetoric without change: “The Budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance.” – Cicero , 55 BC So, evidently we’ve learned bugger all over the past 2,071 years. About Governance or the Message of Jesus. Jesus identity never got “….mixed up with Tammuz/Mithras or some sort of pagan religion….” Jesus didn’t need some pagan religion to mix up the people, the people were already mixed up when Jesus began his campaign to free them from the bondage they were already in! Indoctrination by the Pharisees and the dominant pagan religion of the supernatural which they practiced, is revealed from start to finish in the Bible itself.
HYPERLINK “http://littleleothetruthfairy.wordpress.com/” Inquisitor Says:
HYPERLINK “https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/the-historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-a-short-case/” \l “comment-54010” April 8, 2016 at 8:10 am
Naz: I reject the supernatural and it is as clear as the nose on your face and the knows in my head. As long as you are content to allow the hoaxes of the supernatural sway your common sense, that is your dilemma. You still hold the belief that Prophets are people with special powers to foretell the future but the actual fact is that Prophets are simply people who go to school to study how to be a prophet and then graduate as people do in the ministry, how people become priests for example but you must assume that prophets are the result of divinity so you make them sort of drip religion like some holy stained glass window when in fact they are just ordinary folks like Donald Trump, David Copperfield and Joel Osteen. You see Naz you have never had a conversation about the supernatural, you just accept it because church dogma dictates paranormal activity exists when for all the thousands of centuries, nobody has ever demonstrated that paranormal activity actually exists outside of religion, mythology and hollywood and the tricksters who have capitalized on believers for thousands of years. You remain unenlightened and cannot see the trees because the forest hides them from your sight. What supernatural events happened in the New Testament apart from your belief that the dead rise up from the graves and appear to many, not only Jesus but scriptures says when the veil was rent the graves opened and dead people rose up…..and went home presumably.
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January 6, 2019 at 3:06 am
Paul here’s a couple interesting posts back in the day March 25/April 8th 2016.
Paul Vander Voort Says:
March 25, 2016 at 11:09 pm
Frank and Jason,
Isn’t He supposed to rule? Didn’t His disciples think He was going to restore the Kingdom at that time? Didn’t the early Church have the feeling He would return at any moment to restore the Kingdom? I find it problematic that the Kingdom hasn’t come yet but as a Christian I accept the explanation. However, I can understand why others don’t. I’ve had several discussions especially with Jews and they reject the Resurrection in large part because the Kingdom wasn’t restored. The women said He was risen, but the 2 disciples still went to Emmaus. Why, because nothing had changed.
LTG/Spiritual GIant Says:
March 26, 2016 at 12:46 am
Jason et al:
The Kingdom of God has been misunderstood by everybody of supernatural and superstitious bent from the beginning of the world and that includes the Christian world and the whole world in thrall by religious insanity. What Jesus showed was that one had to revolutionize their thought processes; revolutionize the way of thinking about God and the Kingdom of his residence. that the way that people thought of the Kingdom was wrong, incorrect and totally inaccurate. Jesus amply demonstrated the Father who reigns in the Kingdom and clearly stated the true concept of the Kingdom of God which he said was already at hand. John the Baptist also reiterated that the Kingdom was at hand, within reach of anybody who would listen to the truth, the way and the life!
OMG you can read it for yourself: “:Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” And when they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. Therefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, it is in the desert; go not forth: behold, it is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”
Now if the Kingdom is within you how can it be coming and if it does not come by observation how can you expect to see it? The only way you can see it is when you take heaven out of the Kingdom of Heaven, within you, and follow through with the fulfillment of scriptural lamentation prayer: “Thy Kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
What is so supernaturally alluring that prevents your from understanding the simplicity of the Kingdom being within you and that it is not some military invasion to conquer the whole earth and rule with a fist of iron?
If the world can just listen to Jesus who showed over and over and stated time after time again, that the Father “within” the human spirit, is the essence of the divine logic through which the Kingdom is first recognized by you and then with demonstrable behavior show the world that you are putting into play the will of the Father, on earth, as Jesus did?
And you cannot even understand the concept of soul but all soul is, is the emotion seat in the human spirit, not some weird entity with a built in immortality cushion!
You see, but see not, and you hear, but hear not, why is the world so obtuse about the simplicity that was in Jesus’ message. Why? Because you are so indoctrinated with the paranormal and dead men rising, you are blinded by common sense humanity. But metaphorically speaking, you are already DEAD MEN walking and the world is waiting on you to RISE from the Dead and take action! Open your understanding!
You don’t imagine that Jesus takes any pleasure in having a heaven filled with men and women redeemed by his life, trials and tribulations who will be as useless in heaven as they are on earth? Stacked in bundles of 10, dusted with DDT once a week by a bunch of angels, do you imagine that’s what heaven’s like? Heaven is going to be populated with men, women, boys and girls, who’ve been restored to their redeemed and now true humanity, acquitted and forgiven that we might be restored in that true humanity and become by adoption members of his family. We do not yet know exactly what we will be but this at least we do know that when we see him and understand the what, the why and the how of his life and message on earth which was true fulfillment, we’ll see him as he is and we’ll be like him, we’ll be like him, out of the Kingdom of Heaven within you and now revealed to the rest of the world.
That’s the Coming you’re all waiting for; can’t you just see it? It makes total sense without being fanatical and absorbed by the paranormal hoax perpetrated since the year dot.
If you don’t hear one other single Easter Message this season, hear the one that the spirit cries out to you.
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January 6, 2019 at 7:50 am
Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Act 10:37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Naz
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January 6, 2019 at 11:51 am
Naz:
Regarding your post 69. Just a tech nicality………
How do you reconcile the following in Acts reputed to be written by Luke in the earliest period 60CE to the latest period 160CE
Luke did not know Jesus
Luke was not present for the crucifixion,
Was not present before Jesus was entombed in the place of the dead
Was not present after he escaped from the place of the dead.
was not present when Jesus appeared but claimed to have eaten and drank with Jesus after the escape from the place of the dead.
Luke was not a disciple yet claims personal contact by using the first person plural “we” and “us”
Act 10:39 And “we” are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem.
Act 10:40 ………………… made him to appear,……………….
Act 10:41…………… not to all the people but to “us”………… who had been chosen by God as witnesses,………………
…………….”us” who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
commanded “us” to preach and to testify…………
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January 6, 2019 at 11:57 am
Naz :
I could not figure out what point you were trying to make with posting the Acts verses; it would have been helpful to know the reason instead of trying to guess like the old foe friend F A dam Ick.
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January 6, 2019 at 12:54 pm
LTG …… LMAO, so I did not twist what you said ? I brought it up again because of what you mentioned here in post 49 I believe. so Jesus didn’t do miracles but people thought and later wrote that He did. and some of the statements attributed to Him like — “Then said Jesus to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.” some one with your intellect should be able to catch on to what I’m saying without further explanation
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January 6, 2019 at 12:59 pm
LTG …… again, based on your scenario — faked His own death is not twisting what you said.
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January 6, 2019 at 1:10 pm
LTG ……. again, dude you are hilarious. the problem with your crucifixion scenario is what ? not what you want to talk about. here’s a hint — drive nails through both of your feet (and I’ll give you the best possible scenario no broken bones and 3 days/nights in the hospital + pain killers) and lets take a long walk together
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January 6, 2019 at 1:24 pm
LTG …… now let’s see who’s “duped ?” is there any evidence the nails were driven in the ankle or heel bone ? not going for a walk in that case are you
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January 6, 2019 at 1:26 pm
Paul:
TO POST 73
from post 66
But that’s not the only thing you said. you said Jesus faked his death and I did not say Jesus faked his death. My submission is that Jesus’s two best friends knew he was walking on dangerous grounds that could him get him killed so his best friends, wanting to mitigate such an event if it did come to pass, worked out a plan.
And I submit that Jesus did not know about his friends’ plan, at least not until the last days before the crucifixion, if at all,
AND
I further contend that when the Sanhedrin decided to give the order to execute the Khashoggi-style detainment, was the time that Jesus was made aware of the place, date, time, betrayal, arrest and the public crucifixion AND it was at that same time, if at all, that Jesus was made aware of the friends’ plan to intervene.
So what part of “know” don’t you understand
At the transfiguration was when Jesus was informed of the time, date, place, and method of the arrest and “maybe”, if at all it may have been made known what his friends had planned but that does not mean Jesus faked his death so how do you extrapolate from “maybe” and “if at all” into “Jesus faked his death.” I am saying there was a “possibility” that he was made aware of the plan . How know from what I suggested the definitive statement that Jesus faked his death?
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January 6, 2019 at 1:58 pm
If you think I am hilarious because I contend he survived the cross imagine what are you stymied of all common sense by supernatural religious insanity……… saying…… he couldn’t survive the cross but was raised from being dead when he was in the tomb, rejuvenated and not only became the walking dead but walked through the tomb or just grabbed or mentally levitated the tomb door and then walked or maybe just flew without a cape around on a sightseeing trip until the third day and then went to the tomb to wait for Mary’s appearance.
And then walked through the door and told his disciples he was alive and told the disciples to feel his muscles and bones and then ate a snack with them and presumably digested the food…OMG I have to fix a drink I’ll be right back……pause……wow okay gulp gulp…I’m back Geez Paul, you had me going there for a minute, Holy cow I thought you were saying that it was easier to die from the ordeal and then rejuvenate and come alive; to die and come alive again was easier than it was to survive the ordeal, not die but heal and be nourished back to life to prevent dying.
Am I dreaming or………okay, uncle…. tell me what really happened and how it really went down and how he was missing , how the stone door was rolled away and how it happened and why, Pilate give the body to Jesus disciple for proper burial of the body when they had no respect for the life of the body to being with? Gulp gulp I am still having a long drink after that Paul. I await your reply with great eagerness. Don’t please keep me waiting in suspense, did they know abOUT BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS AND CRUTCHES OR DID MHE EVEN NEED CRUTCHES AFTER DYING, HE WOULD HAVE HAD A ROUGH TIME WALKING IF HE HAD SURVIVED BUT AFTER DYING NO PROBLEM. OMG GULP GULP…..OOH SORRY ’bout the caps I am beside myself with anticipation…gulp. 🙂 🙂 🙂
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January 6, 2019 at 2:41 pm
Paul V:
I can hardly wait.
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January 6, 2019 at 2:44 pm
LTG ….. LMAO, faked his death is an accurate representation of your scenario. this is what you have been stating for years here — Jesus found out they were going to kill him, so the events as you stated were undertaken (with the help of Joe, Nic and Luke ?) to convince those that wanted to kill Jesus that they had killed Him — yes or no ? if you answer yes that is by definition faking His death. if you answer no please explain because that’s news to me
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January 6, 2019 at 2:50 pm
LTG …… LMAO, actually Him being raised from the dead is not as crazy as your scenario. and it explains what His disciples did after He left. your scenario has no explanation for Him riding off into the sunset and leaving His disciples to die horrible deaths (in most cases)
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January 6, 2019 at 2:59 pm
LTG ….. dude you are hilarious. the only two possible scenarios are A. Jesus died and the resurrection is bs B. Jesus was resurrected. so if it’s A it’s out of the blue and into the black so eat, drink and be merry ….. B is the only option with hope therefore I choose B — it’s a win/win, helps me here and now and if correct will help me in the next life.
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January 6, 2019 at 3:32 pm
PAUL :
You must know, without me telling you, that the reason you have to say “If” correct it will help me in the next life?. That is because you don’t know. And that should be simple enough because I don’t know either but according to the bible if you die you still will not know because it says “The dead know nothing”.
Eccl 9:4-6
There is hope, however, for anyone who is among the living; for even a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a portion in all that is done under the sun.
But the bible is written by men and men give virtue and vice to the characters he authors, creates, invents.
“……good moral Judeo-Christian values…….”
Now is that statement ironic, a conundrum, an idiom or just religious insanity?
Killing people because of sexual activity; stoning for adultery; blasphemy; thou shalt not suffer a witch to live? eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth; crucifixion; devouring widows property; hypocrisy; great Judeo-Christian values?
REMEMBER THIS: All religion, all prophets, all gods, all concepts, caricatures and ideas about the supernatural ….all OF THEM, and every last one of them, DERIVE from a person so stick a sock in it because none of man’s creations can be higher than man himself.
If you can use your reason you will understand that Man is Lord of all that he creates, including prophets, religion and divinity. There is nothing sacred but the sanctity of life of Man himself.
Blasphemy is one of the most ludicrous follies of religion. BLASPHEMY IS THE INSIDIOUS STUPIDITY OF THE RELIGIOUSLY GARBLED MIND, MEANINGLESS AND WORSE THAN MERELY USELESS.
Man is Lord and Master of religion, of prophets, of the supernatural, of the gods, of divinity of virtue and all things conceptualized in the mind’s imagination. Blasphemy be damned. If you think blasphemy has any legitimacy whatsoever, you are full of dandruff.
Even the Bible supports this. When the Clergy questioned Jesus about why he and his disciples were doing things forbidden demanded by religion on the Sabbath: Mark2:27,28 and “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”; Lk 6:5 affirms the same thing.
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January 6, 2019 at 3:37 pm
Paul V:
I have darned the hole in your sock and there’s nothing more to add to your mindset. You are living in the old fashion world of ancient religious tyranny when being retarded was not politically incorrect term.
God’s will is revealed in the holy scripture. The sacred book formulates the will of God and specifies what is to be given to the clergy. Clergy become parasites. “… All things of life are so ordered that the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. Not to speak of ‘sacrifice’ (meal–times)… .”
Natural values become utterly valueless. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience of God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power.
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January 6, 2019 at 3:41 pm
I do not believe that ethics/morals belong to Christianity or any other religion for that matter but cherished as sacred nonetheless, welling up from the depths of humanity’s inner core; other than that I cannot say where it comes from or even IF it comes from anywhere, it just is. Life itself just is.
More than that I do not know and I believe nobody can know, is my default position; existence beyond which a greater cannot be thought, is forbidden to me. Belief holds no comfort, offers no joy, cannot be fathomed, never understood, is a complete void to be avoided. As a child Santa was too fantastic to be real and so belief has never been a companion in my life.
In university I wrote an essay for philosophy class. It was a story about three people kidnapped and held hostage; their names were Fatalist and Determinist, (twin cousins) and Free Willy; I got an “A” for the story. lol 🙂
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January 6, 2019 at 6:26 pm
LTG ….. no I don’t know but based on everything I do know it’s the smart bet.
so that OT quote means there is no life after death ? I don’t even have to go way of the reservation as you do to explain that. the dead know nothing because they are in the peaceful sleep of death but that’s not the end according to other bible verses and again if wrong no problem I’ll just be dead
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January 6, 2019 at 6:32 pm
LTG ……. I’m going to re read how you die from crucifixion and LMAO. may be you should too and you’ll know why they broke the other guys legs. after the “swoon sponge” Jesus would be unconscious and after a short time He’d look dead because He is dead. that’s what the doctors/scientists say anyway but go ahead and ignore the facts that’s what you people do
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January 6, 2019 at 6:38 pm
I don’t ignore the facts, you ignore the facts and make stuff up. You see Jesus validated me in this life since I first met him at 12yrs. You are still waiting.
Oh by the way what do you expect your reward to be in the next life. I asked you to describe it in previous post but I can only guess why you can’t tell.
When it comes to Jesus I already know what you are still waiting to discover at some other time, except now. and it is in the same book that validated me ut I had a simple 12 yr old innocence without prefabricated indoctrination and I understood everything .
It’s wonderful.
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January 6, 2019 at 7:41 pm
Re-read the Gospels again for the first time so by chance you might just understand why it is easier to die and come back to life compared to surviving, being bandaged and nursed back to health by people prepared to provide the best of medical care available.
Ask yourself why you prefer trauma that kills because your chances of recovering from death is greater than recovering from trauma the doesn’t kill you and that you don’t have to die in order to survive.
Imagine telling the paramedics to rush you to the morgue instead of the hospital ER because you’ll have a better chance of surviving if you die first. I can hardly stop myself from laughing writing this…….to a fellow human being.
Ask yourself why the hilarity of your preference doesn’t make you laugh ’til your gut hurts. 🙂
Did you know that Jesus studied skin diseases and knew the difference between poison ivy and other skin conditions other than leprosy so when someone thinking they had leprosy and about to be banished out of the community to the colony showed himself to Jesus and Jesus knowing that it was not leprosy simply told the afflicted person to go show himself to the priest and follow his advise because the priests too studied skin diseases.
Matt 8:4 And, behold, there came a man supposing that he was a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Good luck but choose life not death, life is precious wonderful; the absence well we all know there is nothing beautiful about life However just as Jesus said the only sign was the sign of Jonah who was tossed struggling amiid the storm waves, seaweed coming tangling him up as he fought to save his life in the raging sea to keep from being a victim in the belly of Sheol. Jonah’s persistent struggle paid off when in what seemed to be the end minutes of his life, he was closer to shore than he knew when a wave washed him up on shore beach and his joy was palpable.
And don’t forget the food staples of bread and fish that was in the cache supplied again by one of his secret disciples who own the bakeries and the fish plants and sent Jesus donkey loads of food to the area of Jesus retreat to feed the followers at a Bill Graham type Retreat; not once but twice and it was noised throughout the land of the miracle that only the military had the ability to feed thousands at a sitting….and there’s more the Wedding Wine filled to the brim from the Winery also owned by his secret disciple reputed to be the third richest man in town.
If you don’t look for common sense reason, common sense reason will overlook you. But find the lost coin and like the woman.
Luke 15:8-10 what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one (sinner that repenteth.) (read one seeker who searches for truth the joy like Joah is palpable in your heart, that is the joy of Jesus in this life but if you are persistent you can dig and dig and BINGO you will see that knowledge is so much sweeter than belief, belief can lead you to persist for the treasure but knowledge is the treasure; it is knowledge that gives the sweet joy like the woman finding the coin, a treasure that is yours alone and no man can take it from you.)
Did you ever see my video:
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January 7, 2019 at 6:46 am
I made perfect sense. The reality is that we now live in a world civilization that is wholly dependent on fossil fuels. It happens to be the greatest civilization mankind has ever produced. It quite logical to think that if the Bible were actually genuine, the prophetic nature of it would not ignore such a civilization. And, it doesn’t. One simply has to connect the dots to see that. I showed quite a number of dots. There are more that I didn’t mention. It is statistically improbably to connect that many “dots” and not show a parallel between biblical prophecy and the real world. As you said, it is a fantastic scenario and disconcerting because that book most think of as an obscure meaningless religious text does in fact describe our world civilization in detail. Even down to the statue of liberty in New York harbor (great whore sitting on many “waters”, ie/peoples).
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January 7, 2019 at 2:35 pm
LTG …… dude it’s you over looking common sense/logic not me. all world views have problems and I admit the ones with mine. forget all of the problems that you have ignored regarding the “Swoon Theory” (yours is my favourite rendition by the way) the whole argument crashes and burns immediately — of the few people that hold to this theory they immediately contradict themselves. Jesus doesn’t want Mary to touch him in the garden because of his wounds but later that day he goes on a big hike walking and talking and not a hint of hey are you okay from his companions. but you add the extra layer because your Jesus is trying to dispel the supernatural, yet his faking his own death explodes the belief in the supernatural. so you come up with these bizarre interpretations of bible verses you run through your the supernatural is impossible converter. it’s so hilarious especially since the only person that can decode his cryptic language is you. but since it’s so full of holes especially with your extra layer it gets an “F” for trying to dispel the supernatural. but like the crazy catholic that ignores — it’s a hard saying also supports a symbolic interpretation/ Jesus telling the good thief he would be saved & their churches teaching on Mary prove they should agree with osas/missing the joint declaration profess sola fide/ etc ….. you ignore the problems with your world view — that makes you one of the “duped.”
I don’t believe life after death is a reward as such —- it’s just the unfolding of my world view. I don’t fear oblivion, I just fear the possible long period of suffering before the peaceful sleep of death.
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January 7, 2019 at 2:50 pm
PAul
I am so surprised…well not really, after all, too many people from every religious generation dispel arguments, using ideas more fantastic than the arguments they try to dispel, to dispel the stupidity of people defending the the idea of the resurrection idea, which is impossible as everybody on planet earth knows does not happen IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN. and if it seems to happen, there si a perfectly plausible reason why. Like Lazarus; Lazarus was not dead regardless of the words that the Editors of the bible used.
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January 7, 2019 at 2:53 pm
LTG ……. dude I’m very skeptical of “miracles” recorded in the bible or present day. Jesus spoke plainly that Lazarus was dead, He didn’t speak plainly that Lazarus had this medical condition that makes him look dead. your interpretation of that event is hilarious. here is some possible scenarios A. Lazarus died — like really died and Jesus miraculously revived his dead body B. Jesus, with or with out others help, faked Lazarus’ death to give the impression he performed a miracle C. somebody made up the story to start their own religion. if I had evidence the supernatural was impossible I’d pick B or C. but since the best arguments from atheists are — “nothing is something”/ a creation doesn’t need a creator/ and this all happened by chance I go with A.
it’s too bad you are so “duped” because there is a lot of problems with “religion” we agree with. but unlike you I give God the benefit of the doubt.
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January 7, 2019 at 2:55 pm
LTG …… but you ignore the implication of if Lazarus was not dead. everybody but you understands that event as Jesus raised him from the dead so yes —- you do ignore facts.
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January 7, 2019 at 3:11 pm
Paul:
I know that as a supernaturalist you prefer the supernaturalist way out. You don’t have to lift a neuron to explain anything beyond your limited ability to look for any other and possibly reasonable explanations …..to justify a society who sacrificed (killed) their kids for a bumper crop.
Geez, you are so in the last century when modernity made no sense at all.
Look; the simple fact is, Lazarus had a rare disease that Jesus knew about and that caused him to weep………. because others did not know about the affliction. And because of their ignorance entombed as though the person was DEAD in the same way that the following documentary reveals. This is research 101 for god sakes.
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January 7, 2019 at 5:27 pm
PAUL:
Get this if you can.
Please stop. You’re resisting supernatural inclination that Lazarus was dead but he was now dead. Lazarus had a condition called cataplexy.
Cataplexy is a sudden and transient episode of muscle weakness accompanied by full conscious awareness, typically triggered by emotions such as laughing, crying, or terror.
[1] Cataplexy affects approximately 70% of people who have narcolepsy,
[2] and is caused by an autoimmune destruction of neurons that produce the neuropeptide hypocretin (also called orexin), which regulates arousal and wakefulness. That doesn’t mean that or I or anybody h this dideaes butmitts possbvl.
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January 7, 2019 at 6:21 pm
Paul:
I am trying to give you information so you can make decisions for your benefit; it doesn’t matter about me.
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January 7, 2019 at 7:12 pm
LTG ……. dude you are protecting your delusion. you are telling us all dead doesn’t mean dead. you are doing what those nut job cult leaders do — telling people yes that’s what it says but it means what I say. if you were arguing Lazarus suffered from that medical condition PERIOD no problem. but that’s not your argument. the written word doesn’t back up your claim but you say it does when run through your supernatural decoder.
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January 8, 2019 at 7:28 am
“…..That doesn’t mean that or I or anybody h this dideaes butmitts possbvl.”……
Come on Paul……stop speaking in tongues….
WHY, why would you not give your fantasy the benefiit of the doubt? But of course, you would…….otherwise you’d have to tell yourself you’ve been wrong all your life….and Christians can’t tell themselves that……..I mean that would only confuse them……
Yet cataplexy like epilepsy was merely a sin related disease……..
I mean that was a reasonable thing to believe you had if you were having seizures but now we have the science of neurology and we know about epilepsy so now when your kid has seizures, you know, you don’t go to the church to get him diagnosed and treated by exorcism and so that’s a good thing. I’m just saying that religion is losing the argument on every front. On every other front, it’s losing the argument ethically and will lose the argument spiritually.
And yet the “die-hards” are still there fighting for their stupidity and eulogizing that they will see each other in the next, OMG, life? or in the valley of milk and honey………….
Egads….I am glad I never had you for a father figure, Christ, would I be the laughing../……
On the front of human health and disease; you know, it use to be that you could get a diagnosis of demonic possession. I mean that was a reasonable thing to believe you had if you were having seizures but now we have the science of neurology and we know about epilepsy so now when your kid has seizures, you know you don’t go to the church to get him diagnosed and treated by exorcism and so that’s a good thing. I’m just saying that religion is losing the argument on every front. On every other front, it’s losing the argument ethically and will lose the argument spiritually.
We will understand spiritual experience so well at some point at the level of the brain, at the level of changing attention in certain ways can change human experience, we’ll understand it in a way that makes a mockery of this kind of denominational religious talk about Jesus and Buddha and magic powers and that will break down in the same way it has broken down on medicine and that’s a process that we have to be honest about and let unfold.
Let it unfold Paul. If you learned nothing from Jesus; at least look at modern medicine. That’s why they take you tom Emergency and not to the morgue; or the Church, I mean, you have to be an extreme believer of religious insanity to expect that the Church is the best place to tell the paramedics to take you with their sirens wailing when you’re having a health episode. Actually there are still some who are being charged with murder because they call their church buddies to come pray for their kid in shock because s/he needs insulin not useless prayer.
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January 8, 2019 at 8:27 am
It wasn’t just Lazarus who died and was brought back from death. There were many many who were brought back from an untimely death by way of a witness.
2 Kings 13:21
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.
Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Acts 26:8
Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
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January 8, 2019 at 10:23 am
Sure Kim the bible is full of people being raised from the dead but what happened to them? The many who slept when the graves opened?…. Sure Kim you’ll find lots of dead people rising in the Holy Books and especially in the back woods of India, it happens regularly. But in the historical record, not so much!
Lazarus was suffering from cataplexy….see post 94 video.
Sure a lot of people were raised from the dead but what happened to them, did they die again? And why is that? Ever wonder about it?
But you won’t have to wonder about Jesus because he just rose right up and ascended into the clouds; just disappeared like an ASTRONAUT. didn’t even need a helmut. Didn’t even need a spaceship. The rest of us had to wait nineteen hundred years to rise into the clouds thanks to the Wright Brothers in 1903.
Wow!
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January 8, 2019 at 11:49 am
Most of the dead raised died an untimely death. When they were raised from that untimely end, they simply completed their normal course in life like the rest of us. Jesus was unique and remains so. He was/is the firstborn from the dead. I don’t know what you understand about death but the grave is not permanent. However, religion is wrong about “going to heaven”. Dead is dead. However, there is a second death from which there is no return. Rather than death and the grave, such death is by fire and leads to oblivion. Until then, death is merely a condition to await judgment. What you might not know is that the Bible translations use “hell” for the grave and also “hell” for Gehanna. The two are not equivalent as one might think by the translation. The first is temporary and the second is permanent. Both are death without consciousness or awareness.
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January 8, 2019 at 3:07 pm
LTG …….. dude you are so delusional it’s hilarious. you do what the “duped” do. if Lazarus suffered from that medical condition those bible verses about that event are false.
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January 8, 2019 at 3:21 pm
LTG ….. ILMAO, and if Jesus didn’t suffocate on the cross after the “swoon sponge” that would be a miracle —- because according to the doctors and scientists he would have died, really really died. so either those stories are false or true. you say they are true but dead doesn’t mean dead. so that makes your scenario less likely, so you are more “duped” —- another win for me
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January 8, 2019 at 3:24 pm
Kim:
The bible of course is genuine, just not so for our day and time and era. While the world has “civilized” technologically and the mind to use technology to some degree and while some extrapolations can be made that were trending; say, two thousand years ago, other extrapolations like the idea of homosexual sins when a man lies with an a man as with a woman, is still a crime punishable by death in Muslim countries, trending not so much in western countries; nevertheless, in religious circles homosexuality is still ingrained in to the religious psyche of the religious brain and death still the ultimate penalty for what some consider to be the ultimate sin. And of course traditions die hard and some foundmentalists is Israel still frown on the pracrtce of picking up sticks on tbhe sabbath
But Kim, let me please take you back a moment and let me finish before you revert back to being close minded about this just to support your own idea of fossil fuels and the hexagonal derivatives supporting 666.
Here is the simplicity of the beast; its name, its mark and its number, all of which is supported by biblical reference unlike; and please relax and don’t be offended, I am just giving you an alternative for you to aid your knowledge, that’s all.
I mean no offense or ridicule I don’t need to do that because when one has the answer to a simple scripture there is no need to try and destroy belief scenarios of other people trying to solve a seemingly intractable code which is not a code if one knows the bible. When one knows everything in the scriptures, one can speak with authority because the pieces fall in place; the pieces from various books, like a jigsaw puzzle, eventually generate the complete picture and sometimes the end result is something totally untoward what one’s mind originally presumed, imagined and believed.
So here is how the biblical description in revelation, portrays the Name, the Mark and the Number of the beast which every thinking person can relate to, understand, and identify with because of the descriptions the bible provides.
There is only one other place in the bible, apart from Revelation, that talks about 666 and both cases are related to the same thing and thibng, also referred as the Beast is money, currency, gold and in the Old Testament the reference found in Kins and Chrociles speak to the same issue.
“The first mention of gold in the Bible is in Genesis (2:12 KJV), “And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.” In the KJV Bible, gold is mentioned 417 times, silver 320 times and the word “money” 140 times. Not once does the Bible mention paper currency.”
1 Kings 10:14-29 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold, (666).
15 Beside that he had of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.
16 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.
It is also found in Chronicles but references the wealth of King Solomon in 1 Kings.
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January 8, 2019 at 3:27 pm
That’s right,Paul you said it
“if Lazarus suffered from that medical condition those bible verses about that event are false.”
They are as false as a diploma from Trump university and your belief about the resurrection.
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January 8, 2019 at 3:44 pm
LTG ….. no “helmut” required. and our Ascension scenario doesn’t need your supernatural decoder and our Jesus doesn’t run away to leave his friends to die horrible deaths while he lives the rest of his life living it up. your Jesus is a real db.
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January 9, 2019 at 6:29 am
You’ve equated “666” with money. That is not a parallel in reality. Money is hardly unique. Capitalism is. And, New York city is realistically the seat of world capitalism in a country that is the melting pot of the world’s people. This is clearly described in the Bible as Babylon (New York), the great whore (statue of liberty/capitalism) and many waters (many peoples/melting pot).
If the Bible were to ignore the world’s greatest civilization, which is the one today and continues to be, then it would not be a book worth reading. It would be a fake. It is not. So, one must look into the ancient phraseology to find where we are today. The problem is that most like yourself focus in on a single passage rather than the sum total of descriptive language. And, in doing so, come up with all sorts of imaginative interpretations rather than the reality of the world around us. We perceive that our world is “normal”. However, it is not. It is a godless age that professes to bring mankind immortality through technology. This is a lie. And, that lie is described in great prophetic detail in the Bible. But, only if one looks with understanding.
I realize that this approach is unorthodox and to think a 2,000 year old book has details of “today” is hard to believe. But, it must be true or as I said, the Bible is a fake and not worth the paper its printed on.
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January 9, 2019 at 11:13 am
Kim:
Just because I can unlock the mystery does not take away or diminish one’s intelligence to see and understand it.
“You’ve equated “666” with money.” Well yeah…because that’s exactly what it means there’s no elaborate code to decipher, the bible is quite clear.
People obviously have ideas about particular trends they see developing. John in Revelation predicted and rightly so that there would come a day when the Beast of Revelation would rule as it had already been trending in a big way and that nobody, eventually would be able to buy or sell without the Name, the Number or the Mark of the Beast in his forehead(mindset) or in his right hand; this has stumped scholars across the world down through the ages looking for encoded messages, numerology trying to figure out what they perceived as a complicated Da Vinci Code of some fashion or other but the simplicity of John’s prediction was that he was talking about the Name, Money, the Number 666 that represented all the Money(The Name of the Beast) of King Solomon metaphorically, and the Mark which is characterized by the marks of currency. I call it Bingo The Money God. The second beast that gives power and credence to the first beast in all likelihood is simply the government that controls the making of money, that is the Royal Mint or the Federal Reserve
The only thing narrators say about Solomon’s wealth that is correct was that the several references in the bible about 666 apart from Revelation tell about the same event and that is, the amount of wealth coming into Solomon’s Bank in a year, noted as 666 talents of gold, but that was not all the wealth; it was symbolic of all the wealth, in other words Money, Currency. 1 Kings 10:14-15; 2 Chronicles 9:13-14
Every other interpretation means nothing because the world was living in the time of 666(Money useage) when the scripture was written and every generation since it was written, including today. It was and IS the way of the world. The Way of The Beast.
There’s nothing wrong with money; its design is wonderful by the reason of its design. However it did force all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have it. Without the Mark or the Name of the Beast or the Number of its name, it was impossible to buy or sell anything. So now you don’t have to go to town and trade a bag of rice or a pound of potatoes for some meat and eggs and bread because the common denominator was devised as an inevitable consequence of evolution called by its name “Money” and other names standing for the same thing. the same thing:
Real, Yuan, Koruna, Krone, Birr……… Euro (Formerly French Franc), (Formerly Deutsche Mark) (Formerly Drachma),
(Guilder), ( Lira), (Escudo), ( Peseta)…….. Ced, Gourde, Rupee, Shekel, Yen, Dinar, Kip, Ringgit, Peso, Tugri,K Dirham, Nuevo Sol, Zloty, Ruble, Riyal, Rand, Won, Krona, Baht, Pound Sterling, Dollar, Bolivar, Kwacha; and of course, don’t forget the slang derivatives: (Currency, Dough, Buck, Quid, Greenback, Scratch, Mullah, Folding Stuff, Coin)
The bible actually challenges us to solve the riddle: Rev 13:18, “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Solve a riddle: Put your heads together and figure out the meaning of the number of the Beast. It’s a human number: 666.
And here’s the riddle solved in all its simplicity, nothing complicated, no academia necessary, no need to look for hidden Da Vinci codes to interpret no need to add or subtract and substitutes numbers of letter to land on Nero some modern day recognition.
The Number however IS in the bible and the number WAS used metaphorically to mean “all the money” like the ATM Machines represent all the money long before Revelation but the numbers have been obfuscated because it was an alpha numeric number written out as six hundred threescore and six. (666)
and that alpha numeric written form confused Christians so they looked for a code under a rock when it was hidden in plain sight, out in the open in the very book from whence it’s dark association rose. And here’s the story in all its simplicity. The truth of meaning is a just reward for accepting the challenge of wisdom: ” Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.”
And I now offer you knowledge, to dispel belief, to vanish faith, to set the captive free.
How much Money did King Solomon amass? That is why 666 came to prominence, as a metaphor for the Great Wealth of Solomon
If you were to turn on to (1 Kings 10:14-15; 2 Chronicles 9:13-14) you will find the only other references to 666 in the bible, apart from Revelation:
Six hundred three score and six, 666, is money, currency, wealth and it’s worth noting that the only description in the bible referenced apart from Revelation are two scriptures, both alluding to the same thing, “All The Money” of King Solomon…..
It is also noteworthy that King Solomon’s reign conventional dates are around (970 – 931 BCE) about 1000 years before Revelation was written, 10 centuries. The value of precious metals of gold and silver generally followed: a talent of gold was a Homer, an Attic Talent was 60 minae, which divided into 6000 drachmae, Hellenistic mercenaries were commonly paid one drachma per day of military service.
However on reading 1 Kings you will soon see that while 666 became to be the metaphor for Solomon’s wealth to represent all the money, the 666 talents of gold was not “all” the money, for in that same chapter describing Solomon’s wealth in verse 14 “….The weight of gold that came to Solomon yearly was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold…..” it goes on to say, in the very next verse: “…..besides that from the traveling merchants, from the income of traders, from all the kings of Arabia, and from the governors of the country.”
The simple fact is that Money IS the name of beast,(currency, dough, buck, dollar, quid, greenback, scratch, mullah, folding stuff, coin, sterling, gold) the number of the beast, 666 as noted in 1 Kings, Chronicles and Revelation, is 666. (1 Kings 10:14-15; 2 Chronicles 9:13-14).
Solomon’s Great Wealth
1 Kings 10:14 “The weight of gold that came to Solomon yearly was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold,”( 666 ) 15 “besides that from the traveling merchants, from the income of traders, from all the kings of Arabia, and from the governors of the country.”
The talent was the heaviest or largest biblical unit of measurement for mass weight, equal to about 75 pounds or 35 kilograms. When used as a measure of money, it refers to a talent-weight of gold or of silver. The gold talent is reported as weighing roughly the same as a person, and so perhaps 50 kg (110 lb avoirdupois). Some authorities say that the talent typically weighed about 33 kg (75 lb) varying from 20 to 40 kg.
The only two other references in the bible about 666 besides Revelation tell about the same event and that is, the amount of wealth coming into Solomon’s Bank in a year, noted as 666 talents of gold, but that was not all the wealth, it was symbolic of all the wealth, in other words all the money, currency. Everything else means nothing from the time the scripture was written and every generation since it was written, including today. It was and IS the way of the world. The Way of The Beast. It was that way in Jesus’s day, when John wrote Revelation and it continues today with its variations of credit cards and debit cards
The simple fact is that Money is the name of beast,(currency, dough, buck, dollar, quid, greenback, scratch, mullah, folding stuff, coin, sterling) the number of the beast as noted in Kings, Chronicles and Revelation, is 666. (1 Kings 10:14-15; 2 Chronicles 9:13-14
)
The fact that Solomon had 1,000 concubines has nothing to do with the scriptural meaning, the fact that he had steps and 12 lions or whatever has nothing to do with it, the economy and the nuclear arsenals have nothing to do with it, everything else is extraneous information and has nothing to do with the simple fact that 666 is Money and the world depends on it and nobody free or slave, small or great, rich or poor can buy or sell WITHOUT MONEY, WITHOUT THE NAME , WITHOUT AN AMOUNT OF MONEY 666 SYMBOLIZES and/or WITHOUT THE MARK OF MONEY THAT DENOTES THE CURRENCY BEING USED. everywhere on earth.
Simple example. You want groceries. You go to the store and pick out what you want. The grocer says how will you pay, you say cash(money-currency) He says that’ll be $87.87. You say that’s okay I have $87.87 and he says what is the Mark of your money and you say, US $Dollar Mark. Deal done.
The same deal is made in Japan, let’s say. $87.87, you say you have $87.87 but the currency Mark now is the Yen Mark ¥,
In UK £, Bengali rupee mark, Ú, Canada, CAD$, Philippines, Peso, ₱, Euro €, cents ¢, dollars $, all Marks of THE BEAST.
Simple explanation Name, Number, Mark: Money, 666, $–£–¢–€–₱ respectively.
Man is a past master at complicating the issues, looking for codes and meaning that is right in front of his nose.
One needs to look no further; this is exactly what it means:
Revelation 13:18 (New King James Version)
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Actually it is the verses before the 666 verse.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads,
17that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name. In other words access to MONEY.
The other thing about symbolism is the way it talks about one’s mindset as being the “forehead” foremost thought, thus what you have in the front of your mind is referred to as being marked in the “forehead” . The forehead refers to your mindset. WHAT is UPPER MOST IN YOUR MIND, WHAT YOU ARE TUNED IN TO.
And the right hand has always been that symbol of power; I.E. sitting at the right hand of god, the second in command being on the right side. as “He is the right hand man”. These simple symbolisms are totally missed by the conspiracists. Genesis 48:13
And Joseph took them both, Ephraim with his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh with his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near him—-Then Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands knowingly, for Manasseh was the firstborn.—-Genesis 48:17
Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head.—Exodus 15:6
“Your right hand, O LORD, has become glorious in power;Your right hand, O LORD, has dashed the enemy in pieces.—-Exodus 15:12
You stretched out Your right hand;The earth swallowed them.—-Leviticus 8:23
and Moses killed it. Also he took some of its blood and put it on the tip of Aaron’s right ear, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot.—–Deuteronomy 33:2
And he said:“The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came with ten thousands of saints; From His right hand Came a fiery law for them.—-1 Kings 2:19
Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand.—-Psalm 77:10
MARKS to ponder. The world depends on it and nobody free or slave, small or great, rich or poor can buy or sell WITHOUT MONEY: Geez Did I miss anybody?
Currency Marks:
$ dollar sign
¢ cent sign
£ pound sign
€ EURO SIGN
¥ yen sign
Ú bengali rupee mark
Û bengali rupee sign
Ò gujarati rupee sign
˘ tamil rupee sign
€ khmer currency symbol riel
•0E3F thai currency symbol baht
€ khmer currency symbol riel
in World Currencies – Listed by Country Name as used in the Banking Systems of the World.
Currency Data
Currency Cur. Abbr. Country/Countries
Afghani AFA Afghanistan [AF]
Austral ARA Argentina [AR]
Baht THB Thailand [TH]
Balboa PAB Panama [PA]
Birr ETB Eritrea [ER], Ethiopia [ET]
Bolivar VEB Venezuela [VE]
Boliviano BOB Bolivia [BO]
Cedi GHC Ghana [GH]
Colón (Costa Rican) CRC Costa Rica [CR]
Colón (El Salvadorian) SVC El Salvador [SV]
Córdoba NIC Nicaragua [NI]
Cruzeiro Real BRR Brazil [BR]
Dalasi GMD Gambia [GM]
Deutsche Mark See Mark
Dinar (Algerian) DZD Algeria [DZ]
Dinar (Bahraini) BHD Bahrain [BH]
Dinar (Bosnian) BAD Bosnia & Herzegowina [BA]
Dinar (Croatian) HRD Croatia (local name: Hrvatska) [HR]
Dinar (Iraqi) IQD Iraq [IQ]
Dinar (Jordanian) JOD Jordan [JO]
Dinar (Kuwaiti) KWD Kuwait [KW]
Dinar (Libyan) LYD Libyan Arab Jamahiriya [LY]
Dinar (Macedonian) MK Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia [MK]
Dinar (Sudanese) SDD Sudan [SD]
Dinar (Tunisian) TND Tunisia [TN]
Dinar (South Yemeni, replaced by Yemeni Riyal) YDD Former South Yemen [YD]
Dinar (Yugoslavian New) YUD Yugoslavia [YU]
Dirham (Moroccan) MAD Morocco [MA], Western Sahara [EH]
Dirham (UAE) AED United Arab Emirates [AE]
Dobra STD São Tomé and Príncipe [ST]
Dollar (Australian) AUD Australia [AU],
Christmas Island [CX],
Cocos (Keeling) Islands [CC],
Heard and McDonald Islands [HM],
Kiribati [KI],
Nauru [NR],
Norfolk Island [NF],
Tuvalu [TV]
Dollar (Bahamian) BSD Bahamas [BS]
Dollar (Barbados) BBD Barbados [BB]
Dollar (Belize) BZD Belize [BZ]
Dollar (Bermudian) BMD Bermuda [BM]
Dollar (Brunei) BND Brunei Darussalam [BN]
Dollar (Canadian) CAD Canada [CA]
Dollar (Cayman Islands) KYD Cayman Islands [KY]
Dollar (East Caribbean) XCD
Anguilla [AI],
Antigua and Barbuda [AG],
British Virgin Islands [VG],
Dominica [DM],
Grenada [GD],
Montserrat [MS],
Saint Kitts (Christopher) and Nevis [KN],
Saint Lucia [LC],
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines [VC]
Dollar (Fiji) FJD Fiji Islands [FJ]
Dollar (Guyana) GYD Guyana [GY]
Dollar (Hong Kong) HKD Hong Kong [HK]
Dollar (Jamaican) JMD Jamaica [JM]
Dollar (Liberian) LRD Liberia [LR]
Dollar (Malaysian, also known as Ringgit) MYR Malaysia [MY]
Dollar (Namibian) NAD Namibia [NA]
Dollar (New Zealand) NZD
Cook Islands [CK],
New Zealand [NZ],
Niue [NU],
Pitcairn Island [PN],
Tokelau [TK]
Dollar (Singapore) SGD Singapore [SG]
Dollar (Solomon Islands) SBD Solomon Islands [SB]
Dollar (Taiwan, New) TWD Taiwan, Province of China [TW]
Dollar (Trinidad and Tobago) TTD Trinidad and Tobago [TT]
Dollar (US) USD American Samoa [AS],
British Virgin Islands [VG],
Ecuador [EC],
Federated States of Micronesia [FM],
Guam [GU],
Marshall Islands [MH]
Northern Mariana Islands [MP],
Palau [PW],
Panama [PA] (with Balboa),
Puerto Rico [PR],
Turks and Caicos Islands [TC],
United States of America [US],
United States Minor Outlying Islands [UM],
US Virgin Islands [VI]
Dollar (Zimbabwe) ZWD
Zimbabwe [ZW]
Dông VND
Viet Nam [VN]
Drachma GRD
Greece [GR]
Dram AMD
Armenia [AM]
ECU (replaced by the Euro) XEU
European Community [??]
Ekwele GQE
Equatorial Guinea [GQ]
Escudo (Caboverdiano) CVE
Cape Verde [CV]
Escudo (Portuguese) (replaced by the Euro) PTE
Portugal [PT]
Escudo (Timorian) TPE East Timor [TP]
Euro EUR Austria [AT],
Belgium [BE],
Finland [FI],
France [FR],
Germany [DE],
Greece [GR],
Ireland [IE],
Italy [IT],
Luxembourg [LU],
Netherlands [NL],
Portugal [PT],
Spain [ES]. Also
Andorra [AD],
Monaco [MC],
Holy See [VA],
San Marino [SM] and various French dependencies.
Florin See Guilder
Forint HUF Hungary [HU]
Franc (de la Communauté financière africaine [Central African Franc]) XAF
Benin [BJ],
Cameroon [CM],
Central African Republic [CF],
Chad [TD],
Congo [CG],
Côte d’Ivoire [CI],
Equatorial Guinea [GQ],
Gabon [GA],
Guinea-Bissau [GW],
Mali [ML],
Niger [NE],
Senegal [SN],
Togo [TG]
Franc (des Comptoirs français du Pacifique [Pacific Franc]) XPF
French Polynesia [PF],
New Caledonia [NC],
Wallis and Futuna Islands [WF]
Franc (Belgian) (replaced by the Euro) BEF Belgium [BE]
Franc (Belgian, Convertible) (replaced by the Euro) BEC
Belgium [BE]
Franc (Belgian, Financial) (replaced by the Euro) BEL
Belgium [BE]
Franc (Burkina Faso) BFF Burkina Faso [BF]
Franc (Burundi) BIF Burundi [BI]
Franc (Comorian) KMF Comoros [KM]
Franc (Djibouti) DJF Djibouti [DJ]
Franc (French) (replaced by the Euro) FRF
Andorra [AD],
France [FR],
French Guiana [GF],
French Southern and Antarctic Territories [TF],
Guadeloupe [GP],
Martinique [MQ],
Mayotte [YT],
Metropolitan France [FX],
Monaco [MC],
Réunion [RE],
St Pierre and Miquelon [PM]
Franc (Guinea, also known as Syli) GNS
Guinea [GN]
Franc (Luxembourg) (replaced by the Euro) LUF Luxembourg [LU]
Franc (Malagasy) MGF Madagascar [MG]
Franc (Malian) MLF Mali [ML]
Franc (Rwanda) RWF Rwanda [RW]
Franc (Swiss) CHF Liechtenstein [LI], Switzerland [CH]
Franc (West African) XOF
Niger [NE],
Senegal [SN],
West Africa [??]
Frank See Franc (Belgian)
Gourde HTG
Haiti [HT]
Guarani PYG
Paraguay [PY]
Guilder (Aruban) AWG
Aruba [AW]
Guilder (Dutch) (replaced by the Euro)
NLG Netherlands [NL]
Guilder (Netherlands Antilles) ANG
Netherlands Antilles [AN]
Guilder (Surinam) SRG
Suriname [SR]
Gulden See Guilder
Hryvna UAH
Ukraine [UA]
Inti PEI
Peru [PE]
Karbovanet UAK
Ukraine [UA]
Kina PGK
Papua New Guinea [PG]
Kip LAK
Lao People’s Democratic Republic (formerly Laos) [LA]
Koruna (Czech) CZK (CSK is also misused)
Czech Republic [CZ]
Koruna (Slovak) SKK
Slovakia (Slovak Republic) [SK]
Króna (Icelandic) ISK
Iceland [IS]
Krona (Swedish) SEK
Sweden [SE]
Krone (Danish) DKK
Denmark [DK],
Faroe Islands [FO],
Greenland [GL]
Krone (Norwegian) NOK
Antarctica [AQ],
Bouvet Island [BV],
Norway [NO],
Svalbard and Jan Mayen Islands [SJ]
Kroon EEK
Estonia [EE]
Kuna HRK
Croatia (local name: Hrvatska) [HR]
Kwacha (Malawian) MWK
Malawi [MW]
Kwacha (Zambian) ZMK
Zambia [ZM]
Kwanza Replaced by New Kwanza
Kyat MMK (formerly BUK)
Myanmar [MM] (formerly Burma [BU])
Lari GEL
Georgia [GE]
Lat LVL
Latvia [LA]
Lek ALL
Albania [AL]
Lempira HNL
Honduras [HN]
Leone SLL
Sierra Leone [SL]
Leu (Moldavian) MDL
Republic of Moldova [MD]
Leu (Romanian) ROL
Romania [RO]
Lev BGL
Bulgaria [BG]
Lilangeni SZL
Swaziland [SZ]
Lira (Italian) (replaced by the Euro) ITL
Holy See (Vatican City State) [VA],
Italy [IT],
San Marino [SM]
Lira (Maltese) MTL
Malta [MT]
Lira (Turkish) TRL
Turkey [TR]
Litas LTL
Lithuania [LT]
Loti LSL
Lesotho [LS]
Manat (Azerbaijani) AZM
Azerbaijan [AZ]
Manat (Turkmenistani) TMM
Turkmenistan [TM]
Maloti LSM
Lesotho [LS]
Mark (Deutsche) (replaced by the Euro) DEM (DDM formerly in use in East)
Germany (West and East) [DE]
Markka (replaced by the Euro) FIM
Finland [FI]
Metical MZM
Mozambique [MZ]
Nakfa ERN
Eritrea [ER]
Naira NGN
Nigeria [NG]
New Kwanza AON (replaces AOK)
Angola [AO]
Nuevo Peso ARS (replaces ARP)
Argentina [AR]
New Peso (Mexican) MXN (replaces MXP)
Mexico [MX]
New Peso (Uruguayan) UYU (replaces UYP)
Uruguay [UY]
New Sol PEN (replaces PES)
Peru [PE]
New Zloty PLN (replaces PLZ)
Poland [PL]
Ngultrum BTN
Bhutan [BT]
Ouguiya MRO
Mauritania [MR], Western Sahara [EH]
Pa’anga TOP
Tonga [TO]
Pataca MOP
Macao (also spelled Macau) [MO]
Peseta (Andorran) (replaced by the Euro) ADP
Andorra [AD]
Peseta (Spanish) (replaced by the Euro) ESP
Andorra [AD],
Spain [ES],
Western Sahara [EH]
Peso (Argentinian) Replaced by Nuevo Peso
Peso (Bolivian) BOP
Bolivia [BO]
Peso (Chilean) CLP
Chili [CL]
Peso (Colombian) COP
Colombia [CO]
Peso (Cuban) CUP
Cuba [CU]
Peso (Dominican Republic) DOP
Dominican Republic [DO]
Peso (Guinea-Bissau) GWP
Guinea-Bissau [GW]
Peso (Mexican) Replaced by New Peso (Mexican)
Peso (Philippines) PHP
Philippines [PH]
Peso (Uruguayan) Replaced by New Peso (Uruguayan)
Pound (Cypriot) CYP
Cyprus [CY]
Pound (Egytian) EGP
Egypt [EG]
Pound (Falkland) FKP
Falkland Islands (Malvinas) [FK]
Pound (Gibraltar) GIP
Gibraltar [GI]
Pound (Lebanese) LBP
Lebanon [LB]
Pound (Maltese) Replaced by Maltese Lira
Pound (St Helena) SHP
St Helena [SH]
Pound (Sterling) [United Kingdom Pound] GBP (sometimes incorrectly seen as UKP)
British Indian Ocean Territory [IO],
British Virgin Islands [VG],
South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands [GS],
United Kingdom [GB]
Pound (Sudanese) SDP
Sudan [SD]
Pound (Syrian) SYP
Syrian Arab Republic [SY]
Pula BWP
Botswana [BW]
Punt (replaced by the Euro) IEP
Ireland [IE]
Quetzal GTQ
Guatemala [GT]
Rand ZAR
Lesotho [LS],
Namibia [NA],
South Africa [ZA]
Rand (financial) ZAL
South Africa [ZA]
Real See Cruzeiro Real
Rial (Iranian) IRR
Islamic Republic of Iran [IR]
Rial (Omani) OMR
Oman [OM]
Riel KHR
Cambodia (formerly Kampuchea) [KH]
Ringgit (also known as Malaysian Dollar) MYR
Malaysia [MY]
Riyal (Qatari) QAR
Qatar [QA]
Riyal (Saudi) SAR
Saudi Arabia [SA]
Riyal (Yemeni) YER
(North and South) Yemen [YE] (formerly YE for North Yemen and YD for South Yemen)
Rouble (Belarussian) BYR
Belarus (formerly Byelorussia) [BY]
Rouble (Russian Federation) RUR
Russian Federation [RU]
Rouble (USSR) SUR
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [SU]
Rouble (Tajik) TJR
Tajikistan [TJ]
Rufiyaa MVR
Maldives [MV]
Rupee (Indian) INR
Bhutan [BT], India [IN]
Rupee (Mauritius) MUR
Mauritius [MU]
Rupee (Nepalese) NPR
Nepal [NP]
Rupee (Pakistani) PKR
Pakistan [PK]
Rupee (Seychelles) SCR
British Indian Ocean Territory [IO],
Seychelles [SC]
Rupee (Sri Lankan) LKR
Sri Lanka [LK]
Rupiah IDR
Indonesia [ID]
Schilling (replaced by the Euro) ATS
Austria [AT]
Shekel ILS
Israel [IL]
Shilling (Kenyan) KES
Kenya [KE]
Shilling (Somali) SOS
Somalia [SO]
Shilling (Tanzanian) TZS
United Republic of Tanzania [TZ]
Shilling (Ugandan) UGS
Uganda [UG]
Sol Replaced by New Sol
Som (Kyrgyzstani) KGS
Kyrgyzstan [KG]
Som (Uzbekistani) UZS
Uzbekistan [UZ]
Sucre (replaced by the Dollar (US)) ECS
Ecuador [EC]
Syli (also known as Guinea Franc) GNS
Guinea [GN]
Taka BDT
Bangladesh [BD]
Tala WST
Samoa [WS]
Tenge KZT
Kazakhstan [KZ]
Tolar SIT
Slovenia [SI]
Tugrik MNT
Mongolia [MN]
Unidades de Fomento CLF
Chili [CL]
Vatu VUV
Vanautu [VU]
Won (North Korean) KPW
Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) [KP]
Won (South Korean) KRW
Republic of Korea (South Korea) [KR]
Yen JPY
Japan [JP]
Yuan Renminbi CNY
China [CN]
Zaïre (New) CDZ (formerly ZRZ)
Democratic Republic of the Congo [CD] (formerly Zaïre [ZR])
Zloty Replaced by New Zloty
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January 9, 2019 at 11:35 am
You said………….”16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads,
17that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name. In other words access to MONEY.”
You’re close but it doesn’t match ALL descriptivism. A “mark” is in reference to an animal’s footprint. Wherever that “footprint” is means access to COMMERCE (not just money). This describes a world civilization based on transportation. Recognize our civilization? Its based on roads, shipping lanes, flyways, etc. And where these “marks” are there is COMMERCE. Not just money. Hand/eye coordination is paramount in transportation. When you get up and drive to work, you take the keys in hand, and use your hand/eye coordination to back out onto a “mark” to go somewhere for business. And, what do you use for that? The “image” of a beast of TRANSPORTATION. A car/boat/plane etc. that mimics life by the act of MOBILITY. The “number” of such a beast (originating from a PIT in the ground) is the number of man (how science identifies the substance of this “beast”). And it is what science calls BTEX or 6 chemicals that are 6-sided (hexagonal….what is called “organic” molecules) of the 6th element, carbon which is the element of all life. Those 6 chemicals are benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene and 3 isomers of xylene. Look it up. Its how science looks for fossil fuels. In particular gasoline.
What we consider normal (such as eating food from all over the world) the Bible describes as NOT normal.
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January 9, 2019 at 1:20 pm
LTG ……. LMAO those verses are false, that’s not what you’ve implied previously. your previous position was the verses were true just spoken in code “only you” have been able to interpret — eg. where plainly he is dead means he suffers from a medical condition that just makes him look dead. now I say “only you” because in my 40+ years of arguing no one has mentioned that world view because it’s crazy. and you add an extra layer of crazy because your Jesus’ mission is to dispel the supernatural. and his quotes exploded the belief in the supernatural.
the resurrection is false would mean Jesus is a Liar, Lunatic or Legend. so that would mean you aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer for following his teachings. tried to prove it was bogus for years and I couldn’t so I took the “smart bet” on put my money on the resurrection. no problem for me if I’m wrong I’ve never been happier since becoming a Christian —- my faith helps me in this life and if no resurrection won’t matter once I’m dead.
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January 9, 2019 at 2:24 pm
Paul V:
Your neurons are malfunctioning. Can you please show me anything resembling the ridiculous quote you just relayed
“……..your previous position was the verses were true just spoken in code “only you” have been able to interpret”…. sorry but nowhere have I ever discounted the possibility that others could figure out or interpret the bible correctly. Code is for conspiracists because they discount any others from imagining the same code identifier.
The bible is not code but sometimes that is said in one section cannot be recognized until you arrive at a confirming section which is why very very few Christians can understand what Ham really did that caused Noah to curse Ham’s son Canaan simply because Ham saw the nakedness of his father. But this is the ridiculous answers Christians provide, It was not right to look upon your father’s when he is naked; or it was a sexually motivated sin, or other belief nonsense. If you know reason about the Ham curse then perhaps you read my post before and explained it to the willing but I would be interested to know what your take on it is rightly or wrongly,don’t be shy. You can only gain knowledge when you talk to me which is why Jesus said that Knowledge will set you free like belief never can.
Ignorance is not bliss as most Christians believe I grew up in a Catholic culture where the priest discouraged the parishioner “laymen” from reading the bible because only the priests could tell you what it meant. Yeah sure…… they hid knowledge of obfuscate the truth by substituting belief for knowledge. but it ain’t so Paul, it ain’t so.
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January 9, 2019 at 2:25 pm
Kim ….. generally speaking I’d agree with your “access to COMMERCE” remark. but I’d say it as, if you don’t agree with the powers that be you are not just not able function (buy/sell) in that society you’d be a criminal in that society. a kind of example would be a world wide theocracy — doesn’t matter what “religion” that would be a nightmare. there’s even many atheists that would makes this world a nightmare if they had total control.
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January 9, 2019 at 2:42 pm
LTG …… LMAO — that is what you have been saying all along. giving “natural” interpretations of bible verses which we take as “supernatural.” I won’t waste my time searching and cutting/pasting your exact words here, I’ll just state what you said to me in my own words. here is one of your many examples —- the ascension is just Jesus walking away down the road.
those catholics have problems because like you they are “duped.” none of the negatives with my world view that we both agree are rampant in organized religion.
ignorance is you denying what would happen after your Jesus drank from the “swoon sponge.” since I admit I don’t have infinite knowledge I do not exclude the possibility of the supernatural. and compared to the atheistic alternative mine is the logical and reasonable choice. see I disagree with a literal interpretation of Genesis as well as the atheistic “nothing is something” argument.
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January 9, 2019 at 2:55 pm
“……won’t waste my time searching and cutting/pasting your exact words here….’ but I told you if I could the writing that proved you wrong a few days ago when I found the exact text that you wrongly mentioned and I proved you wrong because I have knowledge on my side from my Jesus not your jesus. when I am right I am right. It’s is because you can’t find the texts.because you do not have them.
And I did not describe Jesus as just walking down the road because that would not explain the cloud that took him from their vision. That was an ascension right out of the country. You don’t suppose after going through the ordeal of crucifixion he was going to stick around and do it all over again…He left the country and never returned. As his secret disciples agreed and urged him to do.
Tell me about the Ham curse or are you simply afraid to tackle knowledge with cursory belief? I would be too.
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January 9, 2019 at 7:37 pm
LTG ……. LMAO, your interpretation of those ascension verses is exactly what I described. your interpretation shows they are made up or exaggerated to give a supernatural twist. therefore, according to your own words BS. making Jesus of Nazareth Legend, Liar or Lunatic depending on what quotes of his are fictionalized. if the supernatural is not true the most logical and reasonable ending of Jesus of Nazareth is he died on the cross and the story was made up to start a new religion for nefarious purposes. since you don’t believe in the resurrection that makes you a fool for following the guy. since I don’t have infinite knowledge. I’ll stick to the supernatural is possible and make the smart bet on the resurrection.
switching the topic is one of the “duped” persons favourite tactics. tell me which one of the Ham stories you believe — noah got sodomized, noah’s wife had sex, noah was mocked and ridiculed ? any more you are aware of ? doesn’t matter to me I’ve studied those and don’t care who’s right.
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January 9, 2019 at 7:56 pm
LMAO …… don’t explain how Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge.” ask about Ham’s curse
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January 9, 2019 at 8:06 pm
There is no supernatural twist. What are you talking about? Your are the supernaturalist.
You are so grasping at straws with your belief because you have nothing substantial to offer; certainly nothing like knowledge. You are hanging like a thread as all Christians are because they have all followed Paul the Pharisee who infiltrated the Jesus followers and capitalized on the phony resurrection of Jesus to confirm the Pharisaical nonsense that Jesus railed against for three years.
The fact is, Jesus survived through a marvelous engineering feat that you and others can’t figure out anymore than the 666 phenomenon because you have too much belief and not enough knowledge; survived the cross; was nursed back to health and when sufficiently healed left the country with his entourage of close and devote circle like Mary Magdalene and left the perverts of religious insanity to their own devise.
I will be enthralled to make a movie someday to show the world how stupid Christianity really is and leave them to marvel at the how many people can be duped by supernatural folly that makes a mockery of real people who made a real difference that they could not accept as ordinary humans doing extraordinary things and just could not help themselves but to turn them into a diety for another God to carry there stupidity to a higher level of robots of protocol without discretionary insight, and that’s some 5 to 6 billion humans duped and stooped in their own egotistical poop. hahahahahah
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January 9, 2019 at 8:13 pm
Since you don’t know about Ham why bring it up as though you had some insight…which you don’t; all you have is flimsy belief duped by the snake oil salesmen that have you all sucked in.
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January 9, 2019 at 8:14 pm
Tell me this what was the light by night and the cloud by day that guided the exodus. hahahaha
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January 10, 2019 at 6:24 am
If one reads the text then it is clear there is no criminality. It reads with the intent that buying/selling (commerce) is unable to be carried out without the “mark” (ie/transportation). This is reality in that civilization ends when roads end (generally speaking) in the world we live in. A world theocracy is not reality nor will it ever be. The “false prophet” is the absence of religion and foretells a civilization in which mankind rejects God and proclaims the ability to bring immortality on its own. This too is the reality in our world. Science predicts mankind evolving into immortality by way of technology, which is science solely based on fossil fuels. This will never happen. Mankind will go extinct before technology can do such a thing. It is a lie. Yet, we generally take what science tells us at face value. All this seems natural and normal to us. We completely depend on fossil fuels to live. Our food, our medicines, our housing, our livelihood, our clothes, and everything we have comes from fossil fuels. This was predicted over 2,000 years ago.
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January 10, 2019 at 7:47 am
Without the mark( $, £, ¢,) of the name (Money, Dollar, Currency) of the Beast or the number (666 metaphorically all the wealth of King Solomon) of its name(Gold), it was impossible to buy or sell anything. Which is exactly the way of the world, in every nation, country, city, town, village and household causing all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to buy or sell anything from the lowly garage sale, to food on the table, to the spaceships on the way to the mother planet Mars.
Even the electricity that I fill my electric vehicle battery with, no engine(and no hybrid for me) runs primarily from electricity generated from renewable energy resources of turning turbines powered by river waters. Fossil fuels are on the way out and will be replaced by solar, wind, water and when they’re gone money and their marks and the number will still be the prophecy(trending) fulfilled from Revelation which is so obvious even a Geico Caveman could figure it out.
Yet we still have conspiracists doing somersaults with bizarre complicated decoding ideas of hexagonal molecules that needs atomic microscopes to open up new imaginative horizons for conspiracists desiring accolades for their wisdom. And a proselyte agreeing with one word in their theory gives great joy to both.
ROTFLMFAO HEHEHEHEH CHORTLE CHORTLE HAHAHA OMG WTFantasy
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January 10, 2019 at 10:38 am
You said “Fossil fuels are on the way out and will be replaced by solar, wind, water “. That’s a buncha liberal BS that isn’t reality.
As for the chemistry of fossil fuels….an “atomic microscope” shows you aren’t a scientific person. Consider the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(chemistry).
Its a simple but very important thing but it shows just how applicable the Bible is and the incredibility of what is written in it. Even to the point of describing in great detail what our world is like. And, from 6 aromatic compounds of carbon (6 and 6 and 6) practically all modern materials are produced.
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January 10, 2019 at 1:00 pm
Fossil fuels are already trending out of existence and more so because of the emissions being released into the atmosphere. Car Manufacturers are already going transitioning to electric only vehicles..
And tell me who would have known two thousand years ago anything about your 666 carbon theory when it took almost two thousand years to invent a motor vehicle and the world was still in barbarism mode? So laughable but of course you have to make it sound like science fiction to gain the Christian bums on your side. It was only a few hundred years ago that the Pope charged Galileo with Heresy and barely saved his life but kept him under house arrest for the rest of his life.
The bible is an incredible record of mankind just barely out of cave mode and you think the prophets graduating for the Sons of the Prophet schools knew anything more that how to cook meat and control fire enough to burn their enemies to the ground? And the weak minded among mankind still insist in praying to Zeus for fortune, fame, food and Chinese cookies.
Tesla and Volkswagen each have plans to produce more than a million electric vehicles per year by 2025. On July 25, 2017, Volvo announced that it would phase out the traditional combustion engine and that all of its new models starting in 2019 would be either hybrids or entirely battery-powered.
Within 5 years you’ll see car roofs, hoods and trunk bodies become solar generating power carriers able to energize at 80% capacity under cloudy skies. Who is going to buy gasoline when there won’t be any motor cars left. Well but of course as long as you are still stuck in the 3000BCE and more mode, you’ll still have Zeus to look to for your cure for what ails you. I bought my first electric vehicle in 2015. The average combustion engine runs with 1200 moving parts. My electric drive train One moving part that goes around in a circle like a jet engine and where are all the ICE vehicles ….in my rear view mirror still at the intersection. hahahah so lolable.
Liberalism will leave you in the rear view mirror too.
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January 10, 2019 at 2:50 pm
LTG …… LMAO you brought up Ham. did you know of those 3 interpretations ? if you didn’t I probably know more about it than you.
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January 10, 2019 at 3:24 pm
LTG ……. dude you hilarious. if the ascension is based on a historical event, and the supernatural does not exist, the story was given a “supernatural twist.” but that’s not what you are saying here. you are saying those words are correct it’s just our interpretation of them that is wrong. it’s you with your special insight giving us the decoded natural interpretation and saying we are the “duped” if we don’t believe “looking up” means “looking up.” if I was Jesus I’d just have shaved my beard, cut my hair, changed my clothes and road off into the sunset before Passover that year no use getting crucified at all. it’s not like he’d get caught with facial recognition. and he should’ve told his disciples — hey don’t tell anybody I didn’t die if your scenario is correct. but since you bring up Ham’s curse instead of explaining why Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge” everybody but you knows you are “duped.”
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January 10, 2019 at 4:17 pm
Kim ….. theocracy is just an example of the type of gov’t described in the prophecy. it will be a type of dictatorship with a religious component that will be very anti-Christian according to the prophecy. we don’t even have to go back into history — Islam beheads those that won’t submit to it’s rules.
no criminality — what are they (this gov’t) beheading people for ? that would be for breaking their laws/rules wouldn’t it ? what laws/rules would Christian die for ?
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January 10, 2019 at 5:05 pm
“Tell me this what was the light by night and the cloud by day that guided the exodus. hahahaha”
LMAO, so you still won’t mention why Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge” and bring up Ham’s curse but don’t dazzle us with your deep insights and now you ask me about exodus ?
if the supernatural doesn’t exist it’s most likely a story the jews made up to scare others from messing with them. why take the story literally and give it a natural interpretation ? can you answer that question or are you going to ask me about another totally different topic ?
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January 10, 2019 at 5:43 pm
I have heard the various interpretations but which one do you accept, if any, and if so upon what scriptures or otherwise information do you base your belief or acceptance of the theory of your choice on?. You don’t expect me to tell you the correct one until you conform to the questions do you?
Although it is possible that you know from what I have written beforehand if that is so, then I would also have made known the scriptures that support it. So if you can recite those I will know if you are talking about what you know or not.
Take the words of my Jesus when you talk about what you claim to know….Jesus did not talk about belief he said quite plainly and clearly what he means about what he talks about.
Somehow though I think you know very little about jesus the man but quite a lot about Jesus the supernaturalist dogmatic coaching from church who themselves know very little about the man and what he meant by what he told and how he knew about what he told. But you….not so much but you do have a heck of a lot of belief about the sensational nonsensical poof not you see me now you don’t. When I was a kid I look up hills all the time. Do youo think the disciples in Jesus day did not look up hills; mind you there were not that many in the desert but there were uphill roads and even the curvature of the earth if there was just plain old earth. so lolable…..hehehaha
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January 10, 2019 at 6:48 pm
Paul Vander Voort:
The ascension as you call it is incorrect; it was not an ascension; however, believers with little or no education and who have little capacity to think for themselves, hearing a story about a cloud has only a supernatural connotation and beyond the realm and that’s the heavenly and external and beyond reality.
Jesus said of knowledge: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Now I, being a follower of Jesus, like Jesus, I must always give others the benefit of the doubt when they appear to seek knowledge; nevertheless, after a while when another begins to do nothing more than mock the knowledge one provides, Jesus provides scriptures that describes what to do when reaching the place when mockers have reached the end of their ability.
Jesus said to us, These three relevant scriptures you need to heed and you will know that time when that time is at hand for your adversary will provide it,
#1. When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8
#2. “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son
of Man, but you will not see it ” Luke 17:22 And;
#3. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls
before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and
rend you. Matthew 7:6
And these three main scriptures, all related, have risen in the spirit as provided by you and it is time to depart from communication that has reached “one mockery after another”?
So from here on I can only wish you, as well as you are capable of receiving and will now leave you to your own devise in your glory of “one mockery after another” rejecting the knowledge offered by the Son of Man.
————————————————–30—————————————————
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January 10, 2019 at 8:19 pm
LTG ……. LMAO, I don’t care what it (ie. the ascension) was if it didn’t happen as described in the NT. the point — which you refuse to address — is if it didn’t happen as written with a supernatural interpretation it did not happen. it’s a made up BS story to rip people off in organized religion. Jesus, if a real person — got himself killed on that Nisan 14th, dead really really dead. no “swoon sponge” because if there was one Jesus would’ve passed out and suffocated oh delusional one.
I do not belong to a organized religion so no down side to my world view. and since you can’t even explain how Jesus could pass out and not have suffocated why would any body believe your version or any version of the “swoon theory ?” your scenario can’t even pass the first hurdle let alone the others associated with your story.
that’s one thing we agree on —- I don’t know a Jesus that is that dumb to say a guy is dead when he just appears dead because he has a medical condition that makes him look dead that nobody but that Jesus knows about. your Jesus also shows how dumb he is by using the words he used when his mission was to dispel the supernatural. also if he was smart he would have just left town. but instead he fakes his death and before you know it is dumb ass followers are running around telling everybody (including the people who tried to kill him) Jesus is alive. besides nobody knows your Jesus because only you know what he is really saying — not the best way to spread a belief but give you the perfect qualifications for a cult leader.
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January 10, 2019 at 8:35 pm
LTG ……. are you saying the story describing Ham’s curse was an actual event ? LMAO. I see interesting points in all 3 arguments. but based on the story (flood wiping the earth clean partially due to sexual immorality), the 7 Noahide laws (Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality), some traditions of the ancient middle east and my old man yelling/giving us a spanking if we ever dared mock or ridicule him I think the 3rd is the most likely.
if you are not going to explain why Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge” why not just say so ?
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January 10, 2019 at 8:39 pm
SoM …… LMAO, but “the Son of Man” according to your world view has been dead and buried for centuries. he’s dust and not coming back no way no how if your world view is correct.
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January 11, 2019 at 6:22 am
You say “it will be a type of dictatorship with a religious component that will be very anti-Christian”. That is complete hogwash….there will never be a world religious dictatorship (except when Jesus returns). There certainly isn’t now. That isn’t reality. It is a lie perpetrated by “Christianity” itself and the lie will justify “Christianity”, which is a false religion, resisting the authority of Jesus in the future. In exactly the same way the Jews resisted Jesus over 2,000 years ago. By your statement, you infer “Christianity” is biblical. It is not. We all know much of “Christianity” is mostly of pagan origin.
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January 11, 2019 at 6:55 am
Between inferring that “Christianity” is mentioned in John’s visions and inferring that advancements in technology will prevent human extinction there is a blatant contradiction.
Christianity is mostly false. Global warming is mostly false. Electric cars take fossil fuels to make and will not change anything. Politically correct ideas about “renewable” energy sources is a pipe dream to correct a non-proven problem that only justifies liberal hatred of mankind in general. It came from the 60’s hippy movement and the lie has grown from there.
As I said, the Bible must predict REALITY. Not false religious or political ideas. And, if it cannot do so in REALITY then it is a fake. Prophetic visions can and do reveal in great detail what is to come IF they are actually true. They are.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (the ground….oil wells), and go into perdition (be used for combustion): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (invent things), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (population explosion), when they behold (discover) the beast that was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct), and yet is (crude oil…black gold).
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January 11, 2019 at 7:52 am
Kim:
For the most part you have no idea what you are talking about, about anything you talk about.
1. You equate energy with fossil fuels and for the most part since the Industrial revolution that was true but notice that little word “was”.
2. The transfer is already well under way; it was ready in the 80’s when the fossil fuels greeders bought out (Bribed with the 666 power) and killed the electric vehicle.
3. The transition is in full swing.
4. You infer; I imply.
5. All religions are false and started out as false
6. Pagan is another word for pre-organized religion
7. No religion is true otherwise it would’t be a belief based system
8. The Bible is a religious sponsored marketing ploy to support the religious narrative
9. Blah blah
10. The Bible predicts trends when during the era it was written. Did you ever see the Headline Psychic wins lottery and has been banned from all lotteries the the country, Psychic and prophets are graduates of Psychic, religious and magic school
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January 11, 2019 at 8:13 am
I’m not the one who used the term “atomic microscope” with reference to fossil fuel components (BTEX). As a scientist myself, it was immediately evident that I was conversing with someone who was not schooled in science. Chromatography has nothing to do with microscopy. However, I chose to overlook that.
It now appears evident that I’m conversing with an atheistic political liberal with little understanding of literature, religion or science. With such a repertoire, I’m not surprised you aren’t willing to acknowledge reality.
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January 11, 2019 at 8:46 am
Kim say:
“there will never be a world religious dictatorship (except when Jesus returns).”
OMG Kim:
You wouldn’t recognize Jesus if you tripped over me.
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January 11, 2019 at 9:29 am
aha……a hispanic atheistic political liberal with little understanding of literature, religion or science. The plot thins.
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January 11, 2019 at 2:07 pm
Kim ……. ” Revelation 20:4 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
the above verse seems to support my position but you may have a totally different interpretation.
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January 11, 2019 at 2:59 pm
Kim ….. you are doing what LTG/SoM/et-al is doing mixing 2 world views.
LTG is perfectly right to argue Lazarus suffered from that medical condition but he goes into crazy town when he affirms the words of Jesus in the NT are correct. if LTG’s scenario about that event is correct Jesus should have said something along these lines —- we have to leave immediately because Lazarus suffers from a medical condition that makes it look like he’s dead but he is still alive. we have to get to him before he dies of thirst in the tomb. …………….. quickly move the stone away I hear Lazarus inside. Lazarus it’s okay come out.
Kim you can’t separate Christianity (the kind that’s always been persecuted even by other “Christians” eg. catholics) from the book of revelation. now some say it’s already been fulfilled so they aren’t separating. and I’m not sayin it’ll be just Christians that will be victimized under this coming NWO (that may not happen until I’m dead). just like Nazi germany murdered others besides jews. and leaders of Nazi germany weren’t long ago — just 2 generations from me.
if you want to discuss the NWO separate from the bible that is no problem. atheists/new-atheists have nut jobs that would want to kill other people that disagree with them just like some nut job theists want to kill those that disagree with them. as I mentioned Islam still beheads people for religious crimes. according to studies Islam will take over Europe unless drastic changes occur.
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January 12, 2019 at 7:37 am
You have everything backward!
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” Matt 23:13
In other words:
Frauds!
“I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.
And here are the two cardinal rules:
1: Read the words with a natural, not a supernatural slant for you cannot understand your own let alone supernatural imaginings of authors; for imagination in the minds of mankind is as superficial as a child’s unknown boogieman. Do not read the bible as a child and expect to understand it as an adult.
2: There is zilch; none, and no such thing, as “the word of God” for no God has ever talked to man; neither Isis, Buddha, Zeus, Brahma, Apollo, Horus, Ik Onkar, Jehovah or plain old God. But many authors have talked to and talked about, their personal imaginary caricature character. The best that man can say is that authors write on behalf of the character of their own devise.
Follow the above two cardinal rules and your mind will open to receive understanding.
The religious zealots in Isaiah’s day and Jesus’s day refused to give this key of knowledge to their congregation and to this very day: “So long as the priest and the professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is Truth? asked by pontius pilate, friedrich nietzsche and religious scholars everyday.
THE GOOD NEWS:
Religion is exponentially diminishing and its end is coming and will soon be replaced by the spirit permeating humanity like yeast permeates bread dough but which has been steadfastly stifled by the traditions of ignorance, superficial imaginations and religious zealots; and that is, to give up the power of the lie of charlatanism.
And what is the destiny and what will the new wave use as a guiding pillar? This standard will be written “on the forehead” and in the hearing (metaphorically, in the mindet and on the heart ) of every man, woman and child:
This above all:
“To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou cannot then be false to any man.” (shakespeare’s character polonius – This kernel of wisdom is now taken as Shakespeare’s own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.)
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January 12, 2019 at 9:27 am
so now Shakespeare is your Buddha. Like most secularists who profess to be “atheist”, it all comes down to a hatred of Christianity rather than the Bible. Primarily because most atheists haven’t a clue about what the Bible actually says.
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January 12, 2019 at 12:05 pm
Kim:
You are so lost in your own self deluded imaginative world you don’t even know that Jesus was an atheist!
Jesus hated the Church, hated Religion, hated the Clergy calling them poisonous vipers and further, Jesus debunked the Supernatural religion of the Jews when he made “his first coming out” atheist appearance at the Synagogue when he addressed the congregation with a reading from the book of Isaiah which at first the congregation was amazed until he debunked the religious leaders and their supernaturalfragilisticexpealidocious teachings.
“But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; “But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. “And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. “And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, “And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. “But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
When I say that all religions are a form of mental Illness, Christianity is not exempt.
The bible reflects that mental illness and so does all so called “sacred” books.
Judaism made sex the original sin, wrote the Book of Genesis to support the narrative about the way to life, procreation.
It was Judaism with its heartfelt resentment against life, that first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw filth on the origin, on the essential fact of our life. Others blame Christianity but Christianity and Islam merely followed Judaism promoting the filth of sexuality by shaming all aspects of sexuality.
Procreation without religious accreditation became ostracized bastards, women were forced to wear tarpaulins with slits for eyes in cloth to cover their power whose mere vision of their beauty seduced men and gods alike.
Using procreation as the original sin nobody on earth escaped the guilt save the those chosen by hierarchy to execute their religious insanity.
THIS IS THE Ancient Religious Tradition:
God’s will, so called, is revealed in the “holy” scriptures. The sacred book formulates the will of God and specifies what is to be given to the clergy. Clergy become parasites. “… All things of life are so ordered that the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. Natural values become utterly valueless. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience of God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power.
Sex without Clergy permission is sinful, lust, fornication, adultery.
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January 12, 2019 at 3:12 pm
the majority of Christians I know do not believe “procreation” is the original sin.
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January 12, 2019 at 7:12 pm
ADDENDUM TO Post 143:
1. ORIGINAL SIN, in Christian doctrine, the condition or state of sin into which each human being is born; also, the origin (i.e., the cause, or source) of this state.
2. AND THE RIB……. made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were BOTH NAKED, the man and his wife, and WERE NOT ASHAMED. Thus were they so designed.
3. WHEN THE WOMAN saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and did eat, AND GAVE also UNTO HER HUSBAND with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they KNEW THAT THEY WERE NAKED.
4. ORIGINAL SIN, also called ancestral sin, is the Christian doctrine of humanity’s state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam’s rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
This is not difficult – Because a God that our neighbors believe in is essentially an invisible person, is a creator deity, who created the universe to have a relationship with one species of primate. Lucky us. And he’s got galaxy upon galaxy to attend to but he’s especially concerned with what we do, and he’s especially concerned with what we do when naked. (sharris)
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January 13, 2019 at 7:49 pm
JUSTIFICATION OF EVIL:
FOR THE RELIGIOUS IN GENERAL AND CHRISTIANITY IN PARTICULAR:
Evil is 1/10 misunderstood, 1/10 illusion and 4/5’s perception; and, that’s just the human element. There’s no room in there for god at all.
Lust is defined, not by one’s behaviour, but by what other people perceive as far as I am concerned. Like most sins it is something you do that other people are offended by. That’s why, In the case of sexuality, to fulfill sexual desires before marriage is called lust by the “control freaks” ( I suppose I could have used “hypocrites”, “poisonous snakes”, “pretense”, “pigs” and “dogs”, the names Jesus called religious control freaks ) so I suppose you can blast Jesus for name calling too but I certainly would not.
Sex before marriage is fornication and lust from the biblical perspective but sex after religious consent, “marriage”, is also biblical perspective but biblical perspective is so often wrong because it is based on the supernatural and why many people who link Jesus with the supernatural are missing everything important about the real man Jesus and about themselves as a microcosom of the whole human race. The simplicity of of Jesus was the simplicity of recognizing that he was “being Everyman”.
I am an atheist; my earliest hero Jesus. I was with him in the desert; I was with him as he thought about the way the Popoffs and Benny Hinns abused the regular people to further their own aims; when he knew that he had to be true to his own self or he could never be true to any man.
And being everyman, he could never do to them what they did to him and others because he would then be doing to himself and others the very thing his campaign came about to be, “against”.
Many of you may not understand the closeness I shared with Jesus. I was with him when he was a young child romping in the streets with his village pals; I was with him when he went crying and clinging to his mother’s skirt for comfort after falling and scraping his knees and elbows; I was with him when a stone was thrown at him as a child and struck him in the head; I was with him when at 12 years old he was asking pointed questions of the scribes, pharisees, priests, ministers pastors and secular leaders of the generation.
I believe the supernatural exists in religious circles and Hollywood and I believe that Jesus believed the same thing too. I believe that the Laws of Physics(of the Universe) are never suspended to accommodate ludicrous claims of miracles.
I believe that Jesus never performed a miracle but I believe that he cared for and demonstrated compassion for, and helped heal the sick by, washing, cleansing and bandaging the wounds of the poor, uneducated and hygiene deficient, which such help for the downtrodden and rejects, by the self righteous, was unheard of and was to many, indeed miraculous.
His common sense was the common bandaid that became the “miracle” of healing noised throughout the country.
PS I don’t discriminate against Christians; I believe that every religion based on the supernatural is a form of mental illness that prevents people from traversing the mighty gulf between the ancient reptilian brain of fight or flight reflexes and the new rational brain of rational, reasonable thought that provides insight and knowledge instead of belief. This changed the thought structure and was the evolution that spawned a revolution of ideas that humanity and human rights was a worldwide phenomenon not just a anomaly is an Israeli village.
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January 14, 2019 at 7:51 am
Actually, the Bible does mention “Christians” but not in a way you’d expect…………….
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for MANY shall come in my name (ie/as my “brothers”…”brethren”…as “Christians”), saying, I (Jesus) am the Christ; and the time draweth near (for my return): go ye NOT therefore after them.
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January 14, 2019 at 8:01 am
Yes…Rev. 20:4 is the first resurrection of the “elect”. These were those with whom God had direct communication with in some manner. People like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, the prophets, the Apostles, Paul and various others. Their judgement was during their lifetime. These are not self-proclaimed “Christians”. Other than this handful of “elect”, “WE” (meaning you and I and others) are the “rest of the dead”. A humbling and frightening fact. As described by John, “OUR” resurrection will occur long after Jesus returns and it will be to the day of judgment. Not that we’ll notice the passage of time (more than likely, thousands of years) after dying. It’ll be like we die, then we wake the next instant to judgment. So, take care….judgement day is a breath away.
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January 14, 2019 at 12:35 pm
Nobody has ever had direct communication with Zeus or any other of man’s invented gods. So please, using such arcane references shows true bewilderment.
In mythology the closest to direct communication “with god” was with the “supposed”/”believed”, “Oracles”, the conduits “to/from” the gods. In mythology-morphed; i.e., (the Abrahamic Gods) the closest to direct communication “with god” was with the “supposed”/”believed”, “Prophets”, the conduits “to/from” the gods.
Proclamations, for example, from the “Oracles” / “Prophets” began with the caveats, “God says”, “The Lord speaks”, “Thus says the Almighty”: an utterance, given by a “Messenger” as the response of a god to an inquiry.The agency or medium giving such responses at a shrine, sanctuary or place at which such responses were given: “the oracle of Apollo at Delphi”, for example.
1 Samuel 28) 5 When Saul saw the vast Philistine army, he became frantic with fear. 6 He asked the Lord what he should do, but the Lord refused to answer him, either by dreams or by sacred lots[a] or by the prophets. 7 Saul then said to his advisers, “Find a woman who is a medium, so I can go and ask her what to do.”
Lots [a] The terms “Urim” and “Thummim” have traditionally been understood as “light(s)” and “perfection(s)” or as “perfect light.” The Urim and Thummim were a means of revelation entrusted to the high priest. No description of them is given. This oracular means apparently consisted of a material object or objects since it was physically stored in the breastpiece of the high priest ( Exodus 28:30; Lev 8:8 ).
Knowledge dispels belief.
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January 14, 2019 at 1:27 pm
Kim:
Regarding Luke 21:8. Of the 58 major English version Bibles on the market, not one single bible translates the “Many” in “………Many will come in my name……….” as your statement “(ie/as my “brothers”…”brethren”…as “Christians”).
Not one bible uses any of your terms.
The Majority of the 58 bibles,
52 bibles simply say “……”MANY” will come in my name…..”;
4 bibles say “MANY PEOPLE” will come;
1 bible says “……of “THOSE” who will come……..” and
1 bible says “…..”MANY MEN” will come…..”
a few interchange the term “shall” instead of “will”.
So again this shows how bewildered you really are and demon strates how you get highways and transportation out of Mark, fossil fuels out of the Name and hexagonal molecules 666. I submit it must have taken you some time to find something, anything to fit into your pattern.
But your extrapolations of brothers, brethren,and christians from the term “many shows your processes. You could have said “homo sapiens” if that suited the occasion, n’est ce pas?
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January 14, 2019 at 1:33 pm
No bewilderment here.
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January 14, 2019 at 2:29 pm
You focused in on the wrong word. “many” obviously means people. However, “in my name” is the focus of this prediction. It is a patriarchal phrase. The word “name” means patriarchal surname. Jesus’ surname is NOT “Christ”. It is “Son of God” or “God’s son” or in modern vernacular “Godson”. Primarily, it refers to the firstborn Son to whom the patriarchal legacy is passed to from the patriarchal “Father” and it is God who Jesus proclaimed to be that Father. In the case of the “Son of God” (firstborn from the grave), the legacy is eternal life or life which has ever been and ever shall be rather than a perpetuation of mortality. The “many people” who were predicted to come take the patriarchal “name” of Jesus and proclaim themselves brothers to the Son or “brethren” and in general, they are called “Christians” today. The Bible is proclaiming “Christianity” to be a false religion. Face reality dear.
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January 14, 2019 at 2:38 pm
Kim … doesn’t mention Christians ? okay fair enough and Jews isn’t the correct word but you know what I’m saying. you should know what I mean when I say Jew/Christian (if I’m not using it as you think it should be used ask) and explain when using a word like “EXTRAnatural.” and no problem to clarify (Jew/Christian) but I don’t see how that impacts on your “fossil fuel” theory.
you are missing the point — perhaps it my fault, let me elaborate. sadly everybody wants an argument while I want a discussion. example — see the problem isn’t LTG’s version of the “swoon theory” the problem is he refuses to address the first big hole in that theory — which is based on facts — if Jesus “swooned” on the cross he would not be able to breathe and would have suffocated — died, really really died, as in dead forget about the being speared in the side part. now if LTG can’t explain that (ie how come Jesus didn’t suffocate) and not only continues to argue this theory (I lost track how many times he’s brought it up here) but ridicules anybody that disagrees then ltg is one of the “duped.”
now in your “fossil fuel” theory you are ignoring all of the biblical evidence for a 1 world gov’t/religion that many see (not just in Rev but other books like Daniel) with the evidence of beheading “Christians.” have you studied this ? doesn’t mean they are right but there is lot’s of biblical evidence to support this. so the point of that was if you are just ignoring that why should I take your theory seriously ? in your defense, I’ve heard several arguments “oil” is the liquid that the nations get drunk on but there is problems with your theory about “fossil fuels” I’ll briefly discuss next.
look you don’t even have to consider the bible for a future scenario or get into this “fossil fuel” scenario. everybody atheists/many theists included is screaming for a 1 world gov’t/religion (ie false ecumenical movement). and gov’t would love a type of electronic currency they can tax and control all transactions. so today we could tag a specific person to not only where he/she is (GPS) but with everyone of his/her transactions (ie smart chips). so you break the rules and get cut off — you are unable to access commerce (buy/sell). and the gov’t knows exactly where you are so they can come and detain you. no chip no access and check points can easily catch those with out a chip. so why go with this fossil fuel thing ? you are steeping over a perfect logical/reasonable explanation into the unusual.
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January 14, 2019 at 2:38 pm
It’s interesting that you named “Zeus”. Based on the story of the flood, Zeus might very well have been a man who lived prior to the flood and tales of his exploits carried through on the ark to post-diluvian peoples to become the gods of mythology. Zeus was probably a man who the Bible says was a “son of God”, created and/or born in the days of Adam and created so close to the creation of Mankind in general that he/they were capable of living for thousands of years. Because of such a long life, they were also capable of great evil in the form of breeding with hundreds of generation of the own progeny in an attempt to produce men and women of extraordinary abilities. Giants with one eye, men of great speed, all sorts of mutations. It was a time of eugenics that threatened to bring mankind to the point of extinction. Noah was chosen because he was “perfect in his generations”. So, Zeus drowned in the flood and Noah still lived for 950 years. But, such tales make for an interesting twist on human history. There’s more to the Bible than people think.
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January 14, 2019 at 2:52 pm
YOU focused on the wrong word by extrapolating and emphasizing “brother brethren christian” I focused on your focus. Spin spin spin but you do is spin yourself into a corner as phony as a diploma from trump university.
Then you go in to the ridiculous about Jesus surname. Have you never read the only time Jesus used the phrase was when he quoted Psalm 82.
What’s with the patriarchal son of god surname; it’s meaningless because you have no idea who Jesus was, what his message was, what his message meant and for whom.
You are bewildered.
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January 14, 2019 at 3:31 pm
Nobody, in any of my writings regarding the survival of the cross by Jesus, can find where I said one single word about a “Swoon Theory”. this is the only post where I am bringing it up because I did not defend a theory I did not allude to.
I did not claim Jesus suffocated. Speculators have said it must be so. I did not. I also know that spear prodding was a way to determine if there was an reaction to the prodding; it was not meant to drive the spear through one’s body, In the same way that a sharp object is run along the bottom of a person’s foot to determine if there is any reaction. It is not to say that the object of running a sharp utensil on the bottom of the foot is to open up an incision in the bottom of the foot. If there is no reaction most likely conclusion is he’s dead.
I said Jesus survived the cross, was entombed and escaped from the tomb as per the engineering feat of his best friend and the proof ??? Jesus’s own words when he met the disciples and declared that it is I, alive, not a spirit but muscle and bone give me some food.
It is incumbent on those who say he died…How? Suffocated great. then what made him come alive again and start breathing. The onus is more on those who claim he died than it is on those who claim he survived!
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January 15, 2019 at 8:18 am
The bible is nothing if not highly patriarchal. I had plenty of precedent in rightly interpreting “name” as “brethren” or “Christian”………to not understand this key principle in biblical interpretation is to miss innumerable references to who Messiah was prophesied to be in the Old Testament………and to miss the importance of who Jesus was revealed to be when he rose from the baptismal water.
Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name (SON): and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name’s sake (namesake….SON).
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (SON) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
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January 15, 2019 at 9:46 am
As shown in the following quotes, one of the keenest minds on religion, Thomas Jefferson, supported the belief in the morals of a religion without the supporting belief in the supernatural elements of that religion.
The religion of Jesus is founded in the idea of the one only God concept the higher power (Father) denotes and must, logically and necessarily, be embodied within the created man. tj & ltg
“It is this principle chiefly that gave it triumph over the rabble of [external] heathen gods then acknowledged. Thinking men of all nations rallied readily to the doctrine of one only God, and embraced it with the pure-morals which Jesus instructed.” – Thomas Jefferson
“In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.” Thomas Jefferson
The dunghills so noted are the miracles and miraculous insinuates; the fabric of very inferior minds. ltg
“It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.”
-Thomas Jefferson
AND THIS ABOVE ALL;
“May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man [Humanity]. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.”
-Thomas Jefferson
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January 15, 2019 at 10:00 am
You’re reading into things that suit you………
After the so called miraculous ascension (the dunghill from the fabric of inferior minds) in Acts, everything written thereafter is Post Mortem and irrelevant to the Old Testament and to the Gospels. In other words you are quoting dead quotes.
The Son of Man moves history forward.
Who moves history forward? The Sons of Man.
When Jesus said “the Son of Man in his day”, he was not referring to himself.
If you think otherwise you err greatly.
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January 15, 2019 at 2:41 pm
LMAO, that is what it is called — “THE SWOON THEORY.” it was around long before you were born. you just added a few interesting twists but nothing significant. others even suggest Pilate was bribed as part of the conspiracy.
and again no explanation why Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge.” LMAO do you know why I put “swoon sponge” in quotes ? because a long time ago before I ever heard about this site or LTG/SoM/et-al I heard several versions of the “Swoon Theory” oh delusional one.
please do us all a favour and google crucifixion & suffocation oh delusional one. to keep bringing up that theory with out addressing suffocation makes me LMAO
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January 15, 2019 at 2:45 pm
LMAO — if the supernatural does not exist the ascension, including your dumb ass interpretation, is fiction. yours makes no sense at least mine gives hope. go ahead and follow Jesus’ teaching if there is no resurrection —- I wouldn’t because he’d be a Liar, Legend or Lunatic
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January 15, 2019 at 4:20 pm
The Hopeless one:
You say Jesus died by suffocation, couldn’t breathe. So how did it happen that he started breathing again and appeared alive? Can you explain that? How did that happen?
Please, I await your profoundness. How did he come alive if as you say he died of suffocation?
Do you have an answer? Place it now. Here’s is your big opportunity, to not only refute my theory, but to explain your theory that gives hope to the hopeless. So Let’s hear.
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January 15, 2019 at 4:21 pm
Kim, you’ve totally lost me. I’ll monitor back occasionally to see if you address why you steep over the most likely mark of the beast scenario — the gps chip/electronic cash.
are you bringing up the Jesus=Zeus thing ? please, we’ve all researched that and the easy way to separate the biblical Jesus from Tammuz/pagan sun god is who His/his mother is. if His mother is Mary (yes we know that’s not her real name) wife of Joseph (yes we know that’s not his real name) it’s the biblical Jesus. if his mother is the queen of heaven, wife of god, mother of god, immaculate conception, assumed to heaven, co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix, ever virgin, sinless, star of the sea, our lady/the maddona, etc ….. he’s tammuz/pagan sun god.
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January 15, 2019 at 4:24 pm
Oh hope;less one:
You can sure knock the idea of how Jesus could not and therefore did did not survive the crucifixion so how did he come alive again after being dead? Let;s hear your reasonable argument from dead in the Morgue to alive with a Meal in the safe House?
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January 15, 2019 at 4:44 pm
Ahem…Yeah—I’m still here waiting for Your Profoundness. Who put Jesus in the tomb? What did they do in the tomb? What happened after they left the tomb? How did the Door roll away on its own? Who wrapped the burial clothes neatly in a pile. Why was left in the tomb with Jesus? Anybody? Nobody? How did he escape the tomb?
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January 15, 2019 at 4:53 pm
the queen of heaven, wife of god, mother of god, immaculate conception, assumed to heaven, co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix, ever virgin, sinless, star of the sea, our lady/the maddona,
What have the carnival barkers told you? so lolable
Waiting…………….
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January 15, 2019 at 5:01 pm
Who was left in the tomb with Jesus? Did they have GPS. intravenous? Did they have Red Cross or maybe “Star of David Paramedics”
Waiting to hear your profound explanation. how coming alive from being dead happens. Does it start by twitching, eye flutters, coughing from the candle lighted room?
waiting
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January 15, 2019 at 5:06 pm
You have hope at least. Like is that the best you can do? Hope for what? Hope why? What gave you hope \?did you manufacture hope based on what and can you share hope os is it for your joy alone?
Guess you only know what didn’t happen but nothing about what actually happened.
Gather your thoughts, provide the backup evidence not from carnival barkers; they’ve had it their way since Gold was the 666 of choice.
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January 15, 2019 at 5:09 pm
Keep in touch now, you hear?
As the followers of Bahá’u’lláh would say:
Bahá’í, Bahá’í for now.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:26 am
PAULMAO — I’ll monitor back occasionally to see if you address why you steep over the most likely religious scenario of the resurrection, a “supernatural God miracle” which is deluded on the face of it as much as Zeus and Apollo and the 45,000 other created gods that perform magic trick miracles for idiots.
LMAO — Why you cannot bring yourself to admit the delusion of your belief? It’s a simple explanation:
Since you can’t explain the impossible, without being LMAO, it is easier to avoid. So for the sport of a false win, make an opponent explain their theory than offer your own which of course is impossible.
LMAO — Any explanation is far more likely than the possibility that Jesus actually returned to life after being dead for three days so you play the sport game trying to deride alternate theories out of ignorance of a miracle belief explanation you know by common sense questions your sanity.
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January 16, 2019 at 7:20 am
Its quite interesting to see you argue against modern Christianity yet without a clue why you do. I’ll explain….it is because you intuitively realize that modern Christianity is a false religion and makes no sense.
When you bring up Mary, you presume to be arguing against the Bible but are not. Mary was not the “mother of god”. That is of pagan origin. Mary was married to Joseph and it was his sperm (sperma) with he being of the patriarchal lineage of King David that conceived Jesus. The only “miracle” was that Mary was inseminated without the sex act. Why? Because the conception had to be without uncleanness of any kind. And, in the OT, the couple who had sex were unclean until sundown. This was avoided. Mary was a virgin. However, she was fully married to Joseph, the physical father of Jesus. And, she was not “raped by god” or even inseminated by God…she consented to the procedure. If Jesus had been conceived in any other way than Joseph’s actual seed then she would have committed adultery. If she was unmarried at the time of conception (as some teach) then Jesus would have been a bastard child and wholly unfit as Messiah. So you see the problem with Christian teaching intuitively but translate that to the Bible which thoroughly contradicts what religion teaches.
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January 16, 2019 at 7:28 am
read the account in the Bible..all those questions are answered.
Angels took care of it. Angels do more than you can imagine. Even today.
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January 16, 2019 at 7:38 am
Of course Jesus was not “Zeus”. The “mark” is not a gps chip or electronic cash. It isn’t reality because it simply isn’t a fundamental requirement for commerce even today. You’re making up a conspiracy theory about everyone being required to have a credit card or chip or something similar when it just isn’t true. Don’t you realize that the reality is we get even our food from thousands of miles away? Our medicines, clothes, and every other aspect of our civilization is based on transporting goods and services around the world. A beast’s “mark” is simply its footprint. You have to realize that it is unrealistic to presume modern vernacular and words would show up in a book 2,000 years old. Men rode animals before the advent of modern transportation. And that wasn’t too long ago. So that’s how it was described.
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January 16, 2019 at 7:44 am
Funny how you derisively point to the ascension of Jesus but casually assume aliens exist and that string theory indicates multiple universes. Apparently with a universe where everything is made from shrimp (a Buffy the Vampire reference).
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January 16, 2019 at 7:49 am
Thomas Jefferson is long dead and lived back in the day when they had to fly a kite to see if lightning was electricity. He rejected religion. Not the Bible. And rightly so in many ways.
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January 16, 2019 at 8:32 am
LTG, you’re still not addressing suffocation and crucifixion has me LMAO because it destroys your argument. if Jesus passed out after the “swoon sponge” He would’ve died — that’s a scientific fact oh delusional one.
therefore, either the ascension story is fiction or it really happened. since I see no evidence that the supernatural is impossible I believe my scenario. and not only can it not be disproven it is the only scenario with hope.
your world view leads to death, why choose it when mine has hope. and if I’m wrong I’ll be just as dead as you. my world view has all of the pluses of Jesus teachings with none of the negatives from organized religion.
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January 16, 2019 at 8:52 am
Kim, I know exactly why I’m against “modern Christianity” because it was paganized.
so the logical and reasonable scenario that people are talking about and we have the technology to make happen is wrong because you say so ?
“fossil fuels” will be around for a long time. we still have lots of natural gas to run cars on even after oil reserves are depleted. so just like we had buying and selling before our modern technology we’ll have buying and selling with out oil until the NWO that will tag the person to electronic cash/credits.
LTG will never address why Jesus didn’t suffocate after the “swoon sponge” because it destroys his theory. your “fossil fuel” theory won’t stop commerce buying/selling but the one I mentioned will.
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January 16, 2019 at 9:19 am
Kim, it’s reality. my truck and phone can be located and all my transactions via debit/credit card can be tracked
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January 16, 2019 at 9:20 am
Kim the bible has only got to do with the beliefs and customs and penalties, sin and rituals such as acts or states of being unclean. Those are mere man conditions, rules and regulations and have nothing whatsoever to do with any higher power.
You seem to be a contender with the bible on which can be the more foolish with their imagination, The ancients of barbarism, stoneageism and ignorance or the idiocy of modernity using imaginative codes and hexagons to put the history of mankind together but neither nonsense biblical/religious beliefs nor nonsense codes for imaginative interpretation can put humpty dumpty together again.
For all your stupidity and beliefs you are made more the fools following folly of ignorance without the reason of common sense and if you’re all waiting for the Second Coming to “fix things” you will never see what your rational brain is refusing you now, because of the mesmerizing tyranny of pervasive ancient ignorance, and your own brain is refusing your transition from the reptile brain you are allowing to execute your behaviour, to the logical man who takes possession of his own faculties.
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January 16, 2019 at 10:29 am
Kim:
Angels don’t do everything; Leprechauns do plenty too.
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January 16, 2019 at 10:59 am
Kim
The ascension just did not happen. And the only reason, the only thing that believers point to is that a “cloud took him from their sight” and so it was assumed by the supernatural mind that Jesus ascended into heaven, into the sky.
How myopic!
Anybody who has ever lived on the prairie or in the country especially before paved roads became common, know that clouds take people and vehicles “…….from their sight every second of the day………”
When I grew up one of our neighbours, who was renown for speeding along our one road village to work was taken out of our sight as he drove up the dusty road and we knew it was him but we couldn’t see him because a cloud took him out of our sight every time he went up the hill at 70 miles an hour. And when the dust cloud settled, where was the neighbour, gone to heaven? No he was on the other side of the hil still curling the cloud skyward.
You all have an imagination for the bizarre but no imagination for the normal. When Jesus left the area with his entourage at gallop speed of course a cloud took him from their (disciples) sight. And given the pervasive ignorance today, how much more for ignorant uneducated fishermen who had their brains bombarded with magic tricks to simulate miracles as they did since Exodus when Pharoah kicked Moses and Aaron out of the Palace Court for doing a a magic trick(miracle) that Pharaohs mimicked almost immediately.
Of course I deride you, it’s exactly what you deserve, derision, because of your stupidity. I never mentioned string theory or multiverses.
As far as aliens go. When people ask me if I believe there is life in outer space; I ask them,
where do you think we live?
Give me a break from your attempts to justify ignorance of the ancients as if they knew about hexagonal molecules and so 666 was a natural when the bible clearly tells everybody what 666 was but you have to know the bible enough to have read and re-read it many times. Then your own memory will categorize similarities and connections are made. I suspect you have not read the bible even once cover to cover. Nor has most Christians especially the Catholic Christians who were always discouraged from reading anything from the bible as they were too dumb to understand anything in the bible and the way some speak, I believe it.
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January 16, 2019 at 11:06 am
Kim:
If Jefferson is long dead and flying kites to harness electricity when he lived what about the ancients you put your faith in 2, 3, 5, 10 thousand years ago. You’re such a hokey hoax. The ancients you put your faith in killed their kids for bumper crops and end famines. And yet you got all their God Codes to base your ridiculous fossil fuel theory on.
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January 16, 2019 at 11:21 am
Paul:
What is your scenario? Nobody knows because you won’t say what happened to Jesus after the cross. I asked you many questions but you are stuck trying to tell yourself that Jesus died and then came alive. YOU ARE SPINNING YOUR TIRES IN THE SWOON snowdrift asking why Jesus did not suffocate; did you ever think that maybe Jesus did not suffocate for the same reason that he came alive after he died. You are the LMAO clown of the month
Tell what your scenario, how he suffocated and his heart stopped beating, he stopped breathing, he bled out, his wounds were too severe to survive but not severe enough not to be revitalized from can you not see the idiocy of your position..how Paul. Tell me how Jesus was reconstituted.
Why hold your fantastic scenario for yourself bring it out in the open and we can all enjoy it for the reasonable argument you will describe for us.
Tell me why Jesus was not raised from the place of the dead compared to your theory that Jesus was raised from the dead. I can describe my theory in detail; I can even make a video to describe exactly how it all happened but you, you can’t even talk about it because the truth is you are speaking out of ignorance; in other words, belief, in other words, non knowledge, in other words, ludicrous suspension of the laws of physics. But all you want me to do is to describe how you think he died by suffocation but that’s your description to tell, not mine. But if you can describe the suffocation you must be able to tell me how he could not survive the suffocation but could revitalize and nullify the suffocation he just died from. LMAO
And have no answers none whatsoever.
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January 16, 2019 at 11:47 am
Hahahahaha
Paul wants me to tell him how Jesus did not suffocate. What I know is that Jesus could not have died by suffocation because he rose from the place of the dead and appeared to several people proving he was alive so if he was alive how do you reconcile that he suffocated? Who do you believe the executors or Jesus?
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January 16, 2019 at 12:05 pm
yeah, that suffocation thing has been around for years. It came from the idea that Jesus suffered more than the sum total of mankind’s suffering. nonsense really.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:16 pm
Kim:
Paul is still hung up on the nonsense of suffocation. He can’t let it go. for some reason known only to himself unless it has been in the mindset so long those affected are still affected can can’t get out of the indoctrination must be a ctholic thing.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:21 pm
Jefferson, regardless of him being long dead still lived in the same age we do….that being the last age of mankind’s reign which began over 2,000 years ago after the apostles completed their witness to the world (yes…100% and every “Christian” organization since then has falsely claimed to need to “preach the gospel”). 10,000 years ago, God was still in contact with certain people and directing the course of humanity Himself. Since the “last age” began, there is not and has not been any need to do so since Messiah came and the witness of his coming has been preached. “Gospel” doesn’t mean “good news” as most teach..it means the warning cry of a town criar running through the hamlet to announce the coming of the King so the people would be prepared and the town wouldn’t be burned when the King arrives to find the people not ready. We won’t see much until we see Jesus returning and the chance of being alive to see that isn’t good simply because mankind has yet to reach a point of extinction again. In spite of the potential for nuclear war….what the Bible describes as the “A-bomination that desolates”…..the A-bomb. get it? Another one of those weird prophesies that everyone speculates based on imaginary scenerios while completely ignoring reality.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:26 pm
I just quoted that very verse this morning Luke 21:20
Luke 21:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:32 pm
The Bible describes the visible and invisible as being separated by a veil…not a cloud. You’re placing too much emphasis on the literal wording. It is why the veil in the temple was torn during the earthquake that happened when Jesus died. Haven’t you ever read of the angel that stepped into the fire and went up in the smoke? It was to tell Samson’s parents how to prepare for his conception/birth.
For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven (the sky) from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God (been visited).
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January 16, 2019 at 12:37 pm
also quote….the end is not yet.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:50 pm
actually, all those clean/unclean statues and commandments were for one purpose….to choose a people to bring Messiah into the world as a perfect sacrifice for preventing the extinction of mankind as mortal created beings. Would you take a chance on not returning to eternity by being born a mortal when you’ve existed as a Being for all past eternity? Any imperfection in that sacrifice event would have resulted in the inability to return to an eternal existence. The sacrifice was to give up life which had ever existed to be born a man. Jesus was born a man but he was revealed to have been sent from eternity and was revealed to have EVER been the Son of God but NEVER God. The false idea that God existed in complete aloneness prior to the creation is just one more false doctrine. If that were actually the case then the creation would have been the result of an insane immortal having been driven mad by an eternal existence in the midst of an infinite black void of nothingness. And, if one throws the trinity concept into the mix then that madness takes the form of a multiple-personality disorder. Reality is that an unimaginable kingdom has ever existed without beginning, populated by innumerable beings (Host) which have ever existed and over all God, who has ever existed but never alone. Until the creation, the concept of non-existence was unimaginable. But, we being the created know nothing else. Death is not reality. Life is.
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January 16, 2019 at 12:56 pm
irrelevant and not actually needed to buy a pack of your fav smokes. however, those smokes wouldn’t be available without growing tobacco down in good ole Kentucky while you live in California.
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January 16, 2019 at 1:17 pm
Kim:
Your post 191 is total nonsense and meaningless and nothing to do with the ascension that I mentioned about the cloud taking Jesus out of sight and to which you replied about something unrelated.
Your reply to Pail about buying his favourite smokes is also nonsensical to the his post about GPS tracking his phone and truck and electronic purchases tracking of his purchases made with cashless debit/credit cards at the store.
What are you on, the verge of another nervous breakdown? How long have you been out from the last one?
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January 16, 2019 at 1:30 pm
Kim:
When I was majoring in psychology at university, one assignment was visiting the Mental Institution and socializing with the inmate patients committed there.
Talking to you is like talking to them and I learned not to ask them questions and only respond to they had was questions; they had no answers so I simply answered their questions; it was quite one sided. You remind me of those patients. The only difference; you are the reverse, you have no questions, only answers. I call your Fantasy, the” Land of You”; AKA, the “Dizzy-NeeLand of Psychosis”.
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January 16, 2019 at 3:50 pm
That’s good to know…in my college days I found that those majoring in psychology were some of the most screwed up people I’ve ever met. My impression was that those who should be in an institution were the very one’s who wanted to take psych for some reason. So, I take it as a compliment that you (the crazy) think of me as crazy simply based on nearly half a decade of biblical research. Unlike you I became a true scientist.
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January 16, 2019 at 3:52 pm
The only time I’ve had a nervous breakdown was back when I was working full time, taking care of two little kids and trying to get through graduate Quantum Mechanics in school.
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January 16, 2019 at 4:25 pm
LTG, LMAO, dude you are hilarious. if Jesus passed out after the “swoon sponge” He would of suffocated —- that is a fact based on doctors and scientists discussing crucifixion. therefore, your theory needs an explanation how He did not suffocate or it is non sense.
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January 16, 2019 at 4:46 pm
Kim:
I made my point about and you have to hit back; I understand. That was the basis of the first laws: human revenge. It was what the Mosaic Laws were based on: eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth mentality. It was an appeal to naturalism. We understand it when people are cornered by logic; we psychologists are educated to understand the makeup of the mind especially the minds of the frail, in thrall to a control not their own but unable to admit the weakness thereof.
Some resort to extravagant fantasies to give agency to their sense of being using imaginative invention.
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January 16, 2019 at 4:52 pm
Kim:
Many people recover and continue on with their life as productive individuals all the stronger for the battles they faced, fought and conquered. I wish it so for you.
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January 16, 2019 at 4:58 pm
Okay Paul:
Let’s say you are right and Jesus suffocated.
How did he recover and start breathing again, healed and ate with his disciples after he sufficiently healed from his suffocation.
How did that happen? Do you have any suggestions about what Doctors and Scientist agree to in addition to your suffocation theory that practically any explanation is far more likely than the possibility that Jesus actually returned to life after being dead for three days.
So try to explain that one.
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January 16, 2019 at 5:01 pm
And Paul says in his defense:
…………………………………………..———————————–………………………..
——————————-…………………………………….———————————
I rest my case.
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January 16, 2019 at 5:01 pm
Kim, that’s the point — with cash anybody can buy/sell, free from gov’t control. it’s the same today as it was in biblical times except for the technological advances. even if I get chipped and the cash is electronic still no problem if we still have the same freedoms. just less privacy and harder to buy illegal products/services. a system like that (ie. tagging your location/what you buy and where) would have big benefits but gives too much power to the gov’t. once the system is up and running you could be denied access if you break a rule.
so based on the bible one can make a case those who believe as I do could be denied access to the system and not be able to buy/sell. that theory checks all the boxes and is actually being proposed buy gov’t today because of the benefits.
your problem is a person in the system based on your theory could still buy and sell if they have cash. you don’t have to explain, LTG isn’t explaining why Jesus didn’t suffocate, but that blows your “fossil fuel” theory right out of the water.
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January 16, 2019 at 5:08 pm
Paul, source please, for the government(s) proposal to control because of the benefits and what are those benefits. I’ll accept a link for access if you have one since you don’t have a theory about how Jesus came alive after suffocating and if you can’t give a theory maybe you don’t have theory you have a past time.
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January 16, 2019 at 5:30 pm
LTG, LMAO ———— if you are right, Jesus suffocated and died, he didn’t start breathing again because he would be dead. that’s the point oh delusional one — it would be a made up story. his followers would have been devastated and returned to their previous lives. you have one foot in each camp that’s your problem. if Jesus isn’t Lord, he’s a Liar, Lunatic or a Legend.
so if you are right, later for probably nefarious reasons a whole fake story would’ve been concocted to start a new religion to scam people from their money — a cult. sell every thing you own and give it to the church (us leaders) sound familiar ?
however, Jesus’ followers were crapping their pants/hiding or left Jerusalem but next thing they are running into the vipers den and accusing the Jewish leaders of His death and saying He’s resurrected. that’s the problem.
so only 2 logical and reasonable options A. made up story B. it’s true.
option A means we all die, option B means there is a resurrection and Jesus is Lord. option B is the only logical and reasonable choice for a follower of Jesus because with out the resurrection you’d be a fool to follow Jesus’ teachings
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January 16, 2019 at 5:50 pm
LTG, ……. LMAO, denying people access to a system like I described is not presently taking place, but that is the very real concern of a future NWO gov’t.
google it, huge privacy concerns already being discussed. already in place — electronic cash, gps people — I’m already indirectly via my cell phone and truck. the information is not all being centrally collected as of yet as far as I know. however, gov’t can access this information with court ordered warrants.
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January 16, 2019 at 6:29 pm
You said you did not want an argument; you wanted a discussiion so here’s your chance to have one.
Paul the problem is that Christianity has bought into the dogma that its message rests entirely upon the resurrection and if not then the whole religion falls but that’s just where you’re wrong. That is the falsity of the Church to get as many bums accepting the supernatural because otherwise they would not have Christians in thrall.
There is much more to Jesus than merely church dogma; in fact, it was church dogma that Jesus began his campaign against, to revolutionize and one of the first change was to stop lying to the people by hiding the key of knowledge from the masses; that is, the real truth behind religion.
Now many don’t know what they key of knowledge was so I don’t expect you to know either so I will have to tell you but before I do that I will recall for you he words from the Famous Indictment of the clergy (the Church) from Jesus.
He said: INDICTMENT # ONE:
“……But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” Matthew 23:13
Luke 11:52 is a little more explicit but with the same inner sense: “….52 Woe unto you, lawyers! (Scholars of the Law) for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered…..”
Mull that over, chew it around until you understand what all the words mean “shut up the Kingdom of Heaven, (Hide) Have taken away the key of knowledge, won’t let you go in (because they knew) and those who would go in they hindered with their deceit.
This Indictment is that Jesus knew as did the Scholars, that miracles were a myth, were based on magic tricks and that the supernatural did not exist AND that the resurrection of the dead was a tradition of the Pharisees used as a ploy to keep the masses in the tyranny of belief. All of the above was the Key of knowledge hidden from the masses but proved by scripture itself.
The Pharisaichal belief in the resurrection of the dead was a prime tenet of the Pharisee religion which Jesus railed against for three years. And that is when Paul the Pharisee infiltrated the followers of Jesus and touted the Jesus resurrection from the place of the dead, the survival, as the resurrection from the dead that proved the Pharisee tradition and because of Paul, who practically single-handedly promoted that very thing into Christianity and perpetuated the myth of the resurrection of the dead right down into modern times and you Paul are one of the dupes who was ensnared by the phony resurrection from the dead theory when in fact it was the resurrection from the place of the dead theory which was the only sign Jesus said he would give and that was the sign of Jonah(Matt 12:39-40) who himself was resurrected from the place of the dead out of the stormy sea after being thrown overboard.
Munch on this for a time and let your common sense spirit reveal the truth ABOUT THE KEY OF KNOWLEDGE, hidden since before the days of Jesus ever since the early Book of Exodus and since the very first Genesis. all a bunch of religious hogwash and that was the reason the Jewish Council chased Jesus for three years to catch him arrest him scourge and crucify him because John 7:7:”….. The (religious) world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.” False, wrong, deceitful, erroneous, untrue, THE KEY of truth hidden…………..
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January 16, 2019 at 6:40 pm
There are a couple of controls in place to ensure privacy,(not absolute by any means) location is one, still in control of the user for cell and desktop computers, another is VPN for internet connections.
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January 16, 2019 at 6:46 pm
okay LTG ……. re your post 200.
are you saying despite all of the scientific evidence saying Jesus would’ve died —- Jesus did not suffocate after the “swoon sponge” because the bible says Jesus was alive after the crucifixion ?
dude are you for real ? that’s crazy —- please study suffocation and crucifixion.
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January 16, 2019 at 7:08 pm
so you now want a discussion ?
LTG the problem with Christianity is people misuse it like all world views. there is nothing wrong with my sect of Christianity — a sacrificial love of not just friend but enemy. this only makes sense with a resurrection where this sacrifice can be rewarded. if no resurrection why die for my enemy ?
again, no evidence the supernatural does not exist. either God always existed and always will or the universe has always existed and always will. nothing is something or a creation needs a creator. to believe this is all by chance is the world view that really takes faith. I don’t have that much faith so I believe in God. and it helps me here and now and if I’m correct will help me in the next life — if not congratulations you are right and will both be worm food.
now it’s a free country but this is what I do if I was you —- study and see if it’s possible a passed out person being crucified would not suffocate. if you can figure that out let me know — everything I’ve read indicates it impossible for Jesus to have survived your scenario, He would have suffocated, forget about the spear in His side. why did they break the legs of the other 2 guys ?
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January 16, 2019 at 7:30 pm
What I am saying about the matter is that Jesus did not die from the crucifixion. Yes I read up on the suffocation theory and it does say that certain positions would contribute to suffocation and certain other positions would not.
My idea is not to try to explain why or how the death did not occur; I just accept that death did not occur because Jesus appeared alive several times.
Now for me any explanation other than resurrection after death is more logical for me to imagine than otherwise and so I began with the assumption that he did not die and tried to imagine how he would have escaped without anybody knowing about it and the only logical conclusion is a tunnel. And when I realized that the only two people who entombed Jesus was Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and it was Joseph who had an audience with Pilate to ask for the body.
Pilate was no small potato to have an audience with so obviously Joseph had some pull and when you go over the situation you find that both Joseph and Nicodemus were members of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish Council, that voted to kill Jesus and had the power to do so as the Council the Romans used to keep the masses in check for certain privileges of freedom and other things perks like having their own Roman supplied centurions for their personal security as well as deployment for people control etc. so they had a healthy number of soldiers at their disposal to enforce their rule and power; a Centurion of soldiers (also called centurions) was 100 men (A legion was nominally composed of 6,000 soldiers, and each legion was divided up into 10 cohorts, with each cohort containing 6 centuria. The centurion thus nominally commanded about 100 men, and there were 60 centurions in a legion.)
Both Joseph and Nicodemus were secret disciples of Jesus and both men were extremely wealthy and more likely than not commanded many business in the various villages; Nicodemus was reputed to be the third wealthiest man in town.
With this information a lot of things could be deduced, the safe houses, meeting places, feeding of the thousands with supplies by the secret duo, Joseph himself had been hewing out a tomb, ostensibly for himself but in fact I believe it was for the day when the inevitable might happen and the Jewish Council would get their way and get Jesus out of their hair once and for all. The bible also says that Joseph had hewn this tomb over a two year period and with his wealth and resources engineered a tunnel as part of the project that would provide an escape avenue and there are a lot of logistics to think about in such a project but I have done that and all the bases are covered just from my own ideas, let alone a man with immense wealth and power, a member of the Ruling Council and a contingent of soldiers at his disposal for whatever may eventually happen and under whose control the ranking members(Captain Sergeants etc) would be there to do his bidding whether it was the spearing for movement or the confirmation to Pilate that Jesus was already dead (by appearance) whether by drugs or otherwise but this avoided the usual crucifixion process of breaking legs so that needed to be avoided by all means possible.
(Lower ranks. Optio: One for each centurion (59–60), they were appointed by the centurion from within the ranks to act as his second in command and were paid twice the basic wage. Equivalent to a modern First Sergeant or Lieutenant. Tesserarius: (Guard commander) One for each century.)
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January 17, 2019 at 7:51 am
No, it adds to my credibility. The reality today is that the world depends on fossil fuels for commerce in the reality we live in. We couldn’t survive without fossil fuels. It is in every aspect of our lives. This isn’t my “theory”. It is simple fact………….
https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/paul-driessen/miracle-fossil-fuel-based-energy-brought-health-prosperity-and-life-america
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January 17, 2019 at 7:53 am
that was many many years ago.
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January 17, 2019 at 8:00 am
I wasn’t “hitting back”. I was simply stating my objective experience with psych majors. And, the pay is terrible in the field of psychology unless one has a PhD. Like attracts like….crazy goes for psych was my impression. But, the old saw could apply as well…..”I might be nuts but I ain’t stupid”.
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January 17, 2019 at 10:13 am
Kim:
What you say here is not in dispute:
“……The reality today is that the world depends on fossil fuels for commerce in the reality we live in. We couldn’t survive without fossil fuels. It is in every aspect of our lives. This isn’t my “theory”. It is simple fact………….”
What is in dispute is the correlation you are making between the fossil fuel, et al and the reality of Revelation that it is referring to 666 all the money the Mark of the money on one’s right hand and on the forehead…..the bible is quite clear about what the mark on the right hand meaning the power thereof and on the the forehead meaning the mindset thereof. and no buying or selling without it period.
whether that money/coinage transfers to electronic currency or plastic doesn’t matter, the buying and selling without it nobody can do and it remains. Fossil fuels on the other hand must diminish and will diminish because of the threat of the warming of the planet of the fossil fuel polluting the atmosphere and the need to go to alternate energy forms, the two obvious are wind and solar and look around , the world is transforming to that energy and has taken a back seat only because Trump has his hands in the fossil fuel industry and making a pact with Saudi and Russia and the coal industry to keep in going to fill their wallets regardless of the dangers to the planet and future generations. They are those that have the Mark, that love the mark, that exploit the number and the name that guides their lives and their mindset. They represent the demonic offspring against everything empathetic, charitable, benevolent, pure, simple, love humanity and human rights to keep the fossil fuel industry filling their fat wallets and bank accounts to the detriment of the planet that supports their life and their childrens’ life.
And that trend started thousands of years ago since before Solomon and di not end with Revelation nor has it yet ended b ut the end is close and will become exponentially manifest as soon as Trump gets released from the power base he now operates in unfortunately the USA has learned a hard lesson from him and his ilk. Amen
Pardon the typos; I’m sure there are some and I am in a hurry to carry on some chores so cannot edit.
By the way my minors? Philosophy and Religion.
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January 17, 2019 at 11:45 am
If John wanted to say money then he would have said money rather than “mark”. There are many references to money in the Bible without the need to label it as some kind of “mark”. The reality is that you don’t have any idea whether fossil fuels use will diminish. There are innumerable things in our life that can only come from fossil fuels. You can look that up yourself. Again, you’ve fallen into the idea that mankind’s civilization will somehow find a substitute for all that comes from fossil fuels and will continue into the future ad infinitum by way of technological evolution. That is not based on reality. The far more probable future is extinction if this civilization is extrapolated to an end to fossil fuels (if that is possible). Your supposition about the future is not found in John’s writings and has led to the obvious correlation between John’s writings and the world’s greatest human civilization. The “beast” is not a man. It is a reference to a prehistoric (beast that was), extinct age (and is not) that exists now as fossil fuels (yet is). It comes from far beneath the planet (bottomless pit). It is used for combustion (goes to perdition). It causes smog (smoke from the pit). It has a distinct molecular identification (6 aromatic molecules of the 6th element…benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene and 3 isomers of xylene). It has involved an exponential increase in human ingenuity (men shall wonder..invent). It has resulted in a population explosion (people not found in the book of life). Commerce now depends entirely on transportation (“mark” = roads, flyways, shipping lanes). Note: roads are built the concrete and asphalt from fossil fuels. It has resulted in an “image” of the beast (cars, planes, boats, etc that appear to move as if alive). And finally….transportation is by way of taking one’s keys in their right hand, opening the garage door and using their brain (hand-eye coordination) to travel down the “mark” (asphalt road) that comes right to their door in an “image” (mustang, jaguar, impala or whatever vehicle one has chosen).
So tell me…what are the odds that this is all coincidence? Statistically speaking, the probability such a correlation is coincidence is nearly zero.
What does this say? It says the Bible is real. Not religious abstract BS.
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January 17, 2019 at 1:54 pm
Kim you are missing the point. There are three parts to the wisdom riddle, the Name, The Number and the Mark; it only gave the number as the clue to the riddle.
I am not suggesting that petroleum is going extinct just the part that is causing all the pollution from the burning or which coal and vehicle combustion engines are the culprits. Other uses that do not pollute the environment such the grease you use to stop the squeaking door or gate or used for medicine those are not issues. combustion that puts all the carbon back into the atmosphere ; that is what needs restrictions. And that is the fossil fuels that need to be changed into clean energy that does not pollute.
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January 17, 2019 at 3:22 pm
As I said before…..your statements aren’t made in reality. You say coal and vehicles “need restricted”. There is no conclusive scientific proof this is “needed” as you say nor is this being done and probably never will be….especially in countries like China and Russia The simple fact is that the world population is too great to sustain without the continued use of fossil fuels. What you actually propose is to kill off most of humanity and have the rest return to the middle ages. A time when the saying “its raining cats and dogs” originated by the number of dead animals flung into the streets which began to float down the alleys when a heavy rain came through. A time when people lived in such filth and poverty that the average lifespan was a mere 35 years. Fools that we are, we get frightened and uncomfortable when the electricity shuts off for a few days. More the fool that we are when we listen to so-called “scholars” who spout the nonsense of “global warming”.
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January 17, 2019 at 3:49 pm
LTG, but it is up to you to explain how the death did not occur during the crucifixion because you are promoting the scenario. first how come Jesus didn’t die by suffocation ? and second how come Jesus didn’t die by the spear to His side ? this is the nature of a discussion. when you don’t it becomes an argument. now, since I’m as critical about my beliefs as I am about others I’ve changed my mind on several things or don’t discuss them like I used to when a barrier like this comes up.
there are 2 main different questions here #1. is the resurrection (Jesus was resurrected Lazarus and the others were revived) a factual event ? #2. did Jesus die during the crucifixion ?
Q #1 could be false — no resurrection but Q #2 could be true — Jesus died.
the problem is I can not disprove the resurrection and we have the NT writings saying it occurred. the writing are compelling but also have problems. if I was atheist/new atheist I would be able to say, I agree there is no such thing as the resurrection but Jesus died without contradicting my world view.
to say Jesus didn’t die has several major problems as I’ve previously mentioned and I’ll touch on below.
there are some bizarre things that actually do occur and today we have the knowledge to explain them. but in this case, each new layer makes the story more and more unlikely that it occurred until it just becomes impossible. there are accounts of people surviving crucifixion but with very different circumstances from Jesus. Jesus should’ve suffocated after He passed out whether naturally or drugged by design. if He didn’t suffocate He should have died when He was speared in the side. the roman soldier should’ve been able to see Jesus was dead/would have been in big trouble if he helped with the plan and got caught. should’ve been a rep from the Jewish leaders to confirm Jesus was killed. why not put another body (Judas’ was available) in the tomb/keep the secret that Jesus was still alive ? Jesus’ wounds should’ve physically hindered Him that Sunday morning/afternoon/evening using our timing (garden/road to Emmaus/upper room). people promoting this scenario at times say contradicting things here — don’t touch me because I’m wounded but is in shape to go for a big hike on the road to Emmaus hours later. why did His followers that were so scared all of a sudden act so brave if Jesus wasn’t resurrected ?
see because of the above problems/questions the logical and reasonable answer to Q #2 is Jesus died. that would mean the NT writings are fictionalized if Q #1 is the resurrection is false. therefore, some on like you is contradicting their world view.
so let me sum up this conversation to date (that started several years ago):
You: discussed in detail your version of the “Swoon Theory”
Me: Jesus would’ve suffocated when He passed out
You: ??????
are you saying He didn’t suffocate because He was supported differently than the other 2 guys crucified with Him ? why/how come nobody noticed this ? pilate/roman soldiers in on it ? why ? if so, why not keep it a secret ?
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January 17, 2019 at 4:15 pm
You head is in the sandbox:
Nearly all publishing climate scientists (97–98% support the consensus on anthropogenic climate change.
The scientific consensus is that the global average surface temperature has risen over the last century. Scientific opinion on climate change was summarized in the 2001 Third Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The main conclusions on global warming at that time were as follows:
The global average surface temperature has risen 0.6 ± 0.2 °C since the late 19th century, and 0.17 °C per decade in the years 1971–2001.
“There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities”, in particular emissions of the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide and methane.
If greenhouse gas emissions continue the warming will also continue, with temperatures projected to increase by 1.4 °C to 5.8 °C between 1990 and 2100. Accompanying this temperature increase will be increases in some types of extreme weather and a projected sea level rise. The balance of impacts of global warming become significantly negative at larger values of warming.
These findings are recognized by the national science academies of all the major industrialized nations; the consensus has strengthened over time and is now virtually unanimous. The level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science.
By Matt McGrath
Environment correspondent, Katowice
8 December 2018
UN climate change conference 2018
COP24 DECEMBER 2018 A MISSED OPPORTUNITY AS OIL PRODUCING COUNTRIES WOuLD NOT WELCOME THE REPORT THEY COMMISSIONED LAST OCTOBER
because the report warned that the co2
needed to be cut by 45% by 2030 and those oil producing countries led b y nut jof Trump and Dictator Putin alonmg with Saugi and Kuwait the biggest producers just saw their wallets go flat so they refused to accept the report that 98% in the world’s scientists agree with that it is needed and must be heeded
So please, Kim, playing the ignoramus fool.
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January 17, 2019 at 4:59 pm
Kim, you’re diverting, it’s not about how much “fossil fuels ” are left it’s about how to stop buying/selling. we bought and sold before “fossil fuels” and we’ll buy or sell after or when we transition to another fuel source.
besides there’s lots of hydrocarbons left (coal, natural gas (NG)). oil (CO)reserves are declining but some are theorizing larger CO reserves are deeper underground awaiting discovery. we aren’t going to grind to a halt any time soon. when the end of CO comes (if still similar level of technology) air travel would be greatly impacted but land and sea could continue with trucks/trains/cars/ships being converted to different types of fuels. but knowledge is greatly increasing so who knows what I’ll see in my lifetime. my dad was born in 1925 and used to farm with a team of horses so is it possible we’ll be able to travel by flight without “fossil fuels” with in the next generation or two ? not to mention electricity generated by hydro electric, nuclear power plants
John didn’t mention cash because it won’t be cash. besides there’s still a lot about his prophecy that can’t be explained even though many say they have it figured out. if the system is cash based whether gold/silver/currency/etc… by nature it can’t be tracked like electronic cash/credits. do you ever stay in a motel/hotel ? try paying with just cash, it’s getting harder and harder because they want a credit card and picture ID in case you destroy/damage anything.
presently because of satellites, computers, electronics, biometrics, etc….. the system as I discussed ties the person/location/transaction together, yours doesn’t. yours just makes it more inconvenient to move goods/people from place to place it doesn’t stop any body from buying or selling or travelling. under your system I can still walk/bike/take electric bus/car to the store and buy what they are selling if I have cash. your scenario would limit all from a isolated location from buying/selling. while the prophecy is clear I could buy/sell if I have “the mark.” but my wife would be excluded from buying/selling if she did not have “the mark.”. therefore, your scenario can’t be correct.
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January 17, 2019 at 5:07 pm
After Jesus suffocated one of the two Jewish reps, Joseph, went to ask pilate for the body to bury Jesus the roman soldier with Joseph asked the soldier if Jesus was dead and both Joseph and the soldier confirmed Jesus was dead bu suffocation. It was a good thing the roman soldier was not caught but that ends the speculation of that part of the story. . So Joseph returned and summons Nicodemus and both then lugged the suffocated body into the tomb, and prepared the body for the night crawl.
Later that nigh Joseph opened the chute to the undergrojnd tunnel and walked his way to the tomb where he unsuffocated Jesus so he could get ready for the walk to Emmaus and then back to Jerusalem to meet the others at Joseph’s Safe House and eat a little honey comb and bread and a piece of broiled fish.
The end.
Thomas Huxely said: Of the few innocent pleasures left to men past middle life, the jamming of common sense down the throats of fools is perhaps the keenest.
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January 17, 2019 at 6:31 pm
I’m an environmental scientist so I know about what is and isn’t “proven”. A “consensus” is NOT “proof”. It is speculation. The climate changes over time and that’s not an unexpected or apocalyptic scenario. I had one professor tell us “we can’t wait for data…we have to act”. As a scientist, that offended me since science is based on data. Again, what climate change apologists are actually saying is that 90% of humanity should be killed off and that’s the underlying push for the continued legalization of abortion. Donald Trump might not be a scientist but his intuition is right on in separating reality from progressive rhetoric.
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January 17, 2019 at 9:06 pm
Trump’s wild and raging with anger;
he hasn’t much time and he knows it. No witness can come to his aid for he remains without virtue. All lovers of self and slaves to the mark and the name and the number of the beast shall be thrown down and no mourners will look for a tomb on which to shed a tear. The Hatred of heart shall be the name of every chapter in the history of the worse ruler in the land. He has turned Democracy into Demoncracy by his desire to become its Autocratic Czar. He is a Prince who does not know he is in metamorphosis from which he shall emerge as the Frog he was destined to become.
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January 18, 2019 at 6:13 am
That degree of vitriol shows an astonishing amount of hatred of which the Bible has a number of examples (David/Jesus). And, to take the specificity of a biblical passage and fling it at a person is the worst possible form of Bible interpretation. My guess is you even voted for zero-bama twice…fool me once shame on you but fool me twice, shame on me.
Psalm 109:3
They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
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January 18, 2019 at 6:43 am
If you quote the New Testament, please quote Jesus anything from Acts onward is suspect especially anything regarding Paul the Pharisee who pushed the Pharisaichal belief in the resurrection of the dead. Which when Jesus was discovered alive having escaped death and the tomb, Paul ran with the resurrection of the dead of his own religious belief instead of the resurrection of the place of the dead and duped all of Christianity ever since with his philosophy and religion of the Pharisees.
As far as we know Paul never met Jesus except for the fantasy story about a blinding flash of light which in those days the only mindset incorporated the supernatural and so made it super easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the uneducated.
That vitriol for Trump is from me not the bible and inspired by the behaviour words and pettiness of Trump himself which was just yesterday when he pulled the Military from Nancy Pelosi and the Congress members slated to make a secret flight to Afghanistan troops. Not only did Trump pull the plane from Pelosi and Congress Members but Pelosi must use secret military planes as the second in line to the Presidency after VP; nevertheless the cancelled flight used the same plane to fly Melania to Florida, the sole occupant on the Boeing757 on the $35,000.00 flight to Mar-a-Lago to President Idiot’s Golf Resort.
And Trump being the Dolt he is does not know that the third in succession to the Presidency cannot fly commercial ever since the 9/11 attack and not only that, it was a secret flight as all high level military flights into a war zone are so he also blew the cover and revealed classified information to the whole world including Isis and Al-Qaeda which postponed any high level flight because of President Dunce. His tongue wags his reptile brain.
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January 18, 2019 at 7:09 am
President Trump was playing tit for tat with the Pelosi hag. It was sheer genius and one I wholly agree with. I’m tired of republican presidents not playing the same game demoncrats do. When the hag postponed the state of the union address, the media thought it was genius. When President Trump pulled the same thing on her, it was “childish” according to the media. Face it buddy….you backing the ole hag doesn’t show much originality on your part and certainly contradicts any idea that demoncrats are looking to the future. And, based on that observation, your credibility on any biblical discussion has tanked.
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January 18, 2019 at 7:45 am
I am not surprised you would gleefully support the Mosaic Law of Revenge which Jesus abolished, and rightly fulfilled with his “turn the other cheek” forgiveness scenario. Goes to show that you never listened to a word Jesus said and his message went right over your head.
So lolable that you would talk about Jesus return which itself shows a certain stoneage mentality when it comes to understanding anything in the bible outside what your fantastic imagination can conjure up to suit a supernatural mindset.
Nancy Pelosi has more compassion and empathy than Trump “never had”. And what do you suppose caused the R’s-Hole of America: Republican Religious Rifle Ass Theists of bottomless Pit lose 40 seats in the November Election. Trump is a loser always was a loser and will never be anything more than a resurrected loser. but to quote another suitable passage: Let the filthy be filthy still.
“….“Don’t seal the words; don’t put it away on the shelf. Time is just about up. Let evildoers do their worst and the dirty-minded go all out in pollution, but let the righteous maintain a straight course and the holy continue on in holiness.”
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January 18, 2019 at 9:59 am
“If you quote the New Testament, please quote Jesus anything from Acts onward is suspect especially anything regarding Paul the Pharisee who pushed the Pharisaichal belief in the resurrection of the dead. Which when Jesus was discovered alive having escaped death and the tomb, Paul ran with the resurrection of the dead of his own religious belief instead of the resurrection of the place of the dead and duped all of Christianity ever since with his philosophy and religion of the Pharisees.”
Leo, for the record, there is no greater truth where which we have indisputable textual evidence that Jesus actually rose from the dead. You can deny and not believe the scriptures from Matthew to Revelation, but you cannot argue that the scriptures say Jesus survived the crucifixion. This is intellectual dishonestly on your part which you have been perpetrating for months and years on this blog. You are free to deny and not believe in the resurrection, but don’t insult everyone’s intelligence that the scriptures portray your fantasy.
That’s all I’m going to say on this. I’m tired of this caca del toro gospel according Leo.
Naz
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January 18, 2019 at 10:03 am
turning the other cheek is when someone does you evil. I’m glad you admit that the Pelosi hag did Trump bad. And, if you consider President Trump your enemy then you’re supposed to love and honor him as being in authority over you according to the same passage. Demoncrats only quote such things when they get push back from those they want to destroy in word, deed or reputation. But they squeal like the pigs they are when somebody turns the tables. As I said before, to quote passages from the Bible at someone is the worst form of religion. But I can’t forget you’re a godless baby-killing tree-hugger who despises anyone who disagrees with you and will use any means possible to take another down to show yourself better. Hate is a terrible way to live but it appears its all you have.
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January 18, 2019 at 10:04 am
Naz:
Since you and countess Christians cannot understand the clarity of scripture, you have a need for someone to help your understanding. Everything I say is clearly scriptural and from the mouth of Jesus himself
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January 18, 2019 at 10:21 am
Naz:
Since you and countess Christians cannot understand the clarity of scripture, you have a need for someone to help your understanding. Everything I say is clearly scriptural and from the mouth of Jesus himself. Naz when you read this you will be reading about yourself as the Pharisees because what you believe is what the Pharisees wanted to see and believe too….
Matthew 12:38-42
Jonah-Evidence
Later a few religion scholars and Pharisees got on him. “Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?”
Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.
If you don’t believe me believe the words of Jesu or else tell me what Jesus meant other than the plain words he spoke…….well, I challenge you because you are full of caca del toro looking only to support your indoctrination of supernaturalism and then have the nerve to say that Jesus meant something he did not meant and did not say.
The sign of Jonah because he knew a perverse generation would counter the evidence and say something untrue but something that would support their fallacy and hunger for miracles….but miracles Naz, are a “believers fantasy” and you call my Jesus common sense and my common sense as nothing/
You wouldn’t recognize Jesus if you tripped over me. And you pride yourself on what you cannot understand and do not have the common sense to do so.
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January 18, 2019 at 11:01 am
But the only proof you’re going to get is the Jonah-proof given to the Ninevites, which looks like no proof at all. But he appeared alive and talked to this generation yet this generation, your generation Naz do not accept me now anymore than you accepted Jesus then.
And you think you are better off now than you were then? The generation is perverse because it is looking for miracles that do not happen and never have happened accept as promoted by evil, false religion that performed magic tricks like Penn and Teller and called their magic tricks, miracles, in order to augment by obfuscation the messenger roles they claimed were from a God (that they created and then created the tricks to prove their God) Which is exactly what scripture describes Moses and Aaron did because the prophet said it was a miracle from God and got kicked out of Pharaoh’s court for the folly and fallacy they tried to put over on the Pharaoh to prove their God was greater just as they had been doing to their own people….and successfully too, unfortunately, and you are so duped by the audacity of liars by magic.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said woe to you lawyers and scholars of the law hiding the key of knowledge (the key of religion’s success by magic and deceit) that is all religion and you are too steeped in indoctrination to admit the dupery because you would have to admit that you have been wrong all your life and that you wasted life. But you can intervene, wake up and let the common sense of LeoTheGreater open you mind’s eye and welcome Jesus into your life for the common sense revolutionary Jesus was to save you from the deceit of the miraculous-induced world of Mythology, Myth, Magic and Maybe.
With me and Jesus there is no Maybe, Jesus spoke with authority he didn’t throw out a few suggestions; he was an astonishing preacher.
So it was the Old Testament the Lord Jesus took in his hand and yet the amazing thing is this: though this was that book from which the others were accustomed to preaching, when they listened to the Lord Jesus they were astonished,. For it says in the last verse in that chapter that he taught them as one having authority. Not as the Scribes; in other words, when the Lord Jesus got up, he spoke as though he said what he meant and meant what he said and had the right to say it. Nothing apologetic; he didn’t throw out a few suggestions. He didn’t say “I suppose”, “Maybe”, “I think”. His was a proclamation, not like the Scribe. When the professional preachers got up they nestled in the corner of their pew and went for a quiet doze hoping they’d wake up just before the benediction and preferably after the offering. But when the Lord Jesus,; when he got up, everybody was on the edge of their seat wondering what AMAZING thing he’d say next. He was an astonishing preacher.
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January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am
Hear the Parable of the Rooster for it is my mission to open the eyes of the captives and the downtrodden by mind memes by advancing knowledge:
Scoundrel Religious Soothsayers dread the advance of knowledge as vampires do the approach of daylight, scowling at the rooster heralding the fatal end of darkness and the end of the duperies on which they feed.
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January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am
Naz:
Arguing with me is arguing with Jesus. I merely give you the words that Jesus says, declares, emphasizes, repeats, implores and uses to support, what you just have a barrier up to prevent, from penetrating your mindset that has been ravaged by cleric control for so long a time now that you are not your own person.
You have become a robot, of priestly protocol without discretionary insight and unable to speak your thoughts because others own your thoughts. You have lost the ability to think; it’s just too easy to accept the thoughts of others probably because you were a child abused by vampiric duperies too long. Dismiss and dispense with the supernatural caca del toro. That’s where you need to start in order to return to your own birthright. For the love of Jesus, get with it for Christ’s sake.
Your common sense has been compromised by people who need you to be seduced into submission otherwise their mission fails. Well let it fail to save your own ASSet.
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January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am
Naz:
Here is one saving-grace-proverb to keep in mind during your transition trials:
No wrong, confessed in repentance, is greater than the forgiveness that absolves it.
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January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am
“…..Hate is a terrible way to live but it appears its all you have……”
Spoken directly from the treasure of your heart.
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January 18, 2019 at 12:00 pm
An example of “the cause of its own effect”.
You have heard it said that there is always, without fail a cause and effect and the theory is used in support the Big Bang theory and the Kalam Cosmological theory but that is not always true and certainly cannot persuade the rationale for a first cause.
In the spirit world forgiveness is the cause of its own effect. It’s the melding of repentance/absolution. In the physical world there is also “a cause of its own effect”; one simple example, baking soda and vinegar; the melding simultaneously affects the two equally and directly and spontaneously as “at-one-ment” which makes “the cause and effect” principle a non sequitur in the physical as forgiveness is a non sequitur in the spirit.
I am open to hear arguments.
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January 18, 2019 at 10:18 pm
There is no historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. The only references come from the bible(and word of mouth by supernatural brain induced religious dogma) but of course we know that nobody resurrects from the dead(but some people “believe”) although people have resurrected from places of the dead, the tomb like Lazarus for example…and Jesus….Jesus himself did not say that he was dead when he appeared to the disciples; indeed, he said Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” Being still alive but scarred from the scourging and nails.
And from the scripture narrative of Jonah….”He said, I cried by reason of mine affliction (life and death distress) unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.” that means Jonah felt he would drown in the ocean..in the belly of Sheol but he was not dead nor was he in the belly of the fish (that’s a simile), because he was washed up on shore by a pushing wave….10 “And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.’ a metaphorical embellishment to the story as Jonah retold it after promising the Lord that he, Jonah, promised he would pray “look to the temple” because he had wavered and like most people made promises to the supernatural in life and death experience to be saved… etc. Oh Lord save me and from now on I promise I will or I will never ……..yada yada yada
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January 18, 2019 at 10:23 pm
Time is like the Global Ocean; it is a meaningless concept until Man uses it to divide the One Global Ocean into the five main Oceans, seas, inlets and outlets where all waters hurriedly flow to where they all belong, home, into the One Global Ocean; look at an atlas. The China Sea and the Indian ocean are all part of the One Single Global Ocean.
Distance between objects is meaningless until measurements are cast. The twinkling stars are meaningless until man calculates the distance and speed of light and puts distance into a perspective we conveniently call “time” by distance and speed but “time” just “is” with and without the calculations.
Time is a man made concept to put something into perspective. When we say “before space and time” is a meaningless statement other than to put a theoretical concept into another theoretical concept that we defined as meaning something that has no meaning.
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January 18, 2019 at 10:27 pm
Animals are hungry most of the time so animals have no understanding of time they either catch the prey and eat or fail and go hungry.
Before the tree fell and after the tree fell does not prove time anymore than it proves “sound” or “gravity”. Only by your example does that division of time give perspective to an event..as Jason would say..”…it’s the context…”.
Cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) only proves that the radiation exists and is measureable but not that “time” began to exist by a big bang theory; that’s just man trying to put something into a mouse hole that provides s/he comfort with a sense of agency, a sense of control.
Man always looks for beginnings and ends to explain the unexplainable but nothing starts or ends, everything just “is”.
The Cosmos is a multiplicity of spontaneous generations “all the time” but man wants to pigeon hole “time” into Big Bangs and Big Gods but “time” is like the terms “forever” and “never” of which: what is the longer time? becomes a nonsensical question.
Time just is; it’s like the equation of a mathematician’s tool to the “rule”. You can write the equation to the rule of a theorem but the theorem rule already “is” before you even take the “time” to write it out.
Thoughts and time are like spontaneous generation and that’s about all we know at this period of “time” in our evolution; we try to figure out how to measure a thought in terms of firing neurons for a sense of our own agency but thoughts too are spontaneous generations.
Quantum physics seem to rule in spontaneous generation at the quantum level coming in and going out and being in different places at the same period of time, rendering time a piece in the same puzzle of where, when, who, what and how does it not? nest ce pas?
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January 18, 2019 at 11:08 pm
T.R. et al:
Humanism can be better understood when considered in the context of the attitudes or perspectives it is normally contrasted against. On the one hand is supernaturalism, descriptive of any belief system which stresses the importance of a supernatural, transcendent domain separate from the natural world in which we live. Belief in gods would be the most common and popular example of this. Quite often this sort of philosophy describes the supernatural as being more “real” or at least more “important” than the natural, and hence as something we should strive for — even if it means denying our human needs, values, and experiences in the here and now.
Jesus was a humanist. Pope Francis has said in a recent speech that humanism and caring for others should be centered on Jesus Christ. At a meeting of the Fifth National Convention of the Italian Church in Florence, Francis said humanism should take its starting point from “the centrality of Jesus,” in whom people discover “the features of the authentic face of man.”
Paul was wrong if he was talking about true philosophy but I believe Paul was not talking about rational thought and clear thinking; I believe Paul was talking about the philosophy of carnival barkers, snake-oil salesmen, soothsayers and sorcerers.
Since the early days Jesus’s ministry began, as noted in the very first verse of John’s Gospel in the 7th chapter, after his early humanist teachings about the dignity, worth and value of human beings and treating their lives with compassion and forgiveness compared to the church leaders whose practice was exclusionary of gentiles and sinners Jesus’s humanism was evident.
Throughout Jesus life he brought hope and dignity to the poor while exposing the evil of religious dogma. Please don’t ever think Jesus was anything more than an ordinary man with extraordinary common sense who put himself in harms way to show that the masses of humanity were worthy: to have their wounds bandaged, the disabled helped, the hungry fed, the homeless clothed; being given love, kindness and hope. The clergy hitherto had nothing but loathing for the masses, blaming their poverty, their sickness, their disabilities on their sins and/or the sins of their fathers.
Christians embrace a shallower version of Jesus. Jesus’s love continues to inspire humanist faith – faith that there is yet some good in this earth, that we can all be redeemed by love, compassion and forgiveness and that we should all choose life and should try to live it fully in a spirit of peace and brotherhood with all mankind.
It makes no difference whether Jesus was born of a virgin or rose bodily from his grave after three days; these are merely meaningless dogmatic talking points and not real.
These are signs that the wicked demand because they do not have the heart, empathy or insight to see the divine in Jesus and in all of us, without such signs. Blessed are those who follow Jesus not having seen and without any need for signs and wonders simply on the strength of his messages and words of praise and promise for a pious people from a pious person who loved humanity unconditionally. To everybody Jesus encountered, he looked for good, trust and was open to both; if the peace of Jesus returned to him unrequited, then and only then did he leave unfulfilled; however, Jesus peace and love was “indispensable…to his sense of being which he would at no price relinquish by treating fellow members of humanity with a state of indifference.”
Jesus was emboldened to remain receptive to love, peace and trust from everybody that he met and that reception, that depth of humanity was a reflection of his inner invisible essence and an essence characterized by “a form of godliness” and that invisible self, intimately identified with the invisible godliness spirit was a reflection for that essence he called the Father within that made his unconditional receptivity to love, peace and trust was metaphorically referred to as the Son reflecting the Father.
We say therefore that the “Father Godliness” reflected by the Son becomes by that reflection the “Son of Godliness” and that was, what, how, whenever, wherever, and who Jesus was to all people by his life and through his message. Jesus, reflecting his humanity in that manner was; AKA, the Son of Man.
If that disposition prevailed, no evil is allowed. And if all humanity acted on the premise that all there is of good is available to s/he who is available to all there is of good, the conclusion would never need to ask the question:
“Why Does God Allow Evil?”
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January 19, 2019 at 3:15 pm
this is hilarious. neither of you can explain the huge holes in your “swoon” and “fossil fuel” theories. the questions I’ve posed is not me pulling stuff out of my a$$ and you don’t even acknowledge the possibilities you could be wrong. why is everybody arguing like roman catholics (rc) now instead of having a discussion ? you do know the tricks rc use don’t you because you are using them.
I show you how people like me do it.
Q. “Why Does God Allow Evil?”
A. briefly…. I don’t know for sure and that question troubled me because I can’t fully explain it. but the God I believe in can make it all right so I trust in Him. that’s the only alternative for me because the atheistic world view is hopeless. you take away the resurrection and you might as well eat drink and be merry then commit suicide when the bad out weighs the good.
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January 19, 2019 at 3:46 pm
One does not need to explain the swoon theory because he did not die. And the reason we know he did not die is because he showed himself alive, muscle and bone he ate and drank, had a pee and a poop.
That’s the simplicity you can’t face because you can’t admit you’ve been wrong all your life and are still grasping at paranormal straws hoping the truth will go away.
Ask any coroner on the planet if he does an autopsy on a live body. He’ll book you an appointment with the psychiatrist for a committal interview.
Of all the things you lost do you miss your mind the most?
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January 19, 2019 at 3:50 pm
You cannot admit that Jesus survived because then you would have to explain how he got unsuffocated and that’s something your own common sense cannot accept, but it’s easy to admit your wrong when you let your ego go into humility stage instead of stuck spinning its wheels in high gear ego.
As far as the fossil fuel theory that as retarded AS THE RESURRECTION THEORY. And the suffocation theory dolt. hyuk
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January 19, 2019 at 3:56 pm
As long as you believe in Zeus and in all its mythological allure, the term mentally deficient will remain politically correct.
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January 19, 2019 at 4:00 pm
You don’t have questions of argument, what you have is a hobby called “Avoid answering your theory craft”.
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January 19, 2019 at 4:43 pm
Paul V.:
So when it comes to the question “Why does God allow Evil” you don’t know for sure. Well that’s simple, either you know or you don’t know but you are not sure if you know or if you don’t know. You have a problem if you you’re not sure; you’re like the gate that swings both ways ahhh the old ego again flaring up making you appear stupid. There goes that old ego getting in the way again. And then you say; now, THIS IS REALLY A CORKER:
To the same question “Why does God allow Evil”? you say you can’t “fully explain it”; and you’re troubled by that. Well, that’s okay, let’s hear your partial explanation if you can’t “fully ” explain it. And let me suggest that you get untroubled which is easier than getting unsuffocated.
By the way if you read Post 241, again, you’ll find out what part of “know” you don’t understand,……ahh the wonder of old dogs learning new tricks if you just stop letting ego jump in front of your common sense that you were given as your birthright and for which religion has made you surrender and squander the only companion you have “within you” Lk 17:21 But you probably don’t know what Jesus said in that chapter and verse, you really should look it up and start one verse before at verse 20 for context.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:16 pm
LTG, ILMAO …….. it’s so hilarious you don’t see what you are saying which is —- Jesus didn’t die because the NT has Him alive after the crucifixion and there is no such thing as the resurrection/supernatural so Jesus must have “swooned” and revived in the tomb. you can’t even prove your version of the “swoon theory” is the correct one. and to make it more hilarious the NT is written so only you can decode the writings before and after the crucifixion to show things like “dead” doesn’t mean “dead.”
if you don’t believe in the supernatural yours is not the only option. the most logical and reasonable would be Jesus died and the NT is fictionalized to give a supernatural twist.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:20 pm
“……Jesus died and the NT is fictionalized to give a supernatural twist…..”
That’syour story but you don;t want to admit it because you can ‘t explain it “fully” LMAO Hilarity Clinton is your companion hahaha
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January 19, 2019 at 6:24 pm
Oh hilarity one, a thousand comedians out of work and we get you.
Why would you expect me to prove your “swoon” theory, you can’t even explain “fully” why does God allow Evil because you don’t know for sure why God does allow evil but God troubles you about that. read Post 241 again for the first time.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:26 pm
LTG, of course I’m not sure why God allows evil because I’ve never seen a compelling argument for why He does. and if TR was sure the post would’ve been different. some times you don’t know why. and because I don’t know why God allows evil that means your “swoon theory” is correct ? dude, you are hilarious.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:28 pm
When you read 241 again you’ll learn why.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:32 pm
Funny how you read everything into a post but yo9u can’t admit yhat you know that Jesus died by suffocation and after dying became unsuffocated and start living again. And bcame just another man that pisseth up against the wall, Trump’s ancestor’s wall undoubtedly.
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January 19, 2019 at 6:45 pm
When was the autopsy performed? Oh they didn’t have autopsies then; they just let the body decompose but stuffed it with what?
“Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.”
The main reason a dead body was anointed with spices was to control the smell of decomposition. Jews did not practice embalming, and the funeral spices were a way to help minimize unpleasant odors.
But maybe Nicodemus stuffed the 75 lbs into the orifices and maybe that suffocated him too or maybe unsuffocated him and he woke up. Tell us what you really almost know but do not not for sure but tell us what you don’t know fully but tell us partially anyway and we’ll add to it and make it understandable to believers and the believers will fill in the blanks.
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January 19, 2019 at 7:07 pm
LTG, LMAO —– it’s your “swoon theory.” I can’t prove (as in 2+2=4) my “resurrection theory” but at least it does not contradict my world view and no decoding of NT writings required. the proof is based on the biblical evidence and requires belief in the supernatural which can only be inferred based on arguments from our apologetics.
if the supernatural does not exist the NT writings have to be fictionalized otherwise they are nonsense. because they state clearly “dead” means “dead.”
if the only choice is between A. Jesus died and the NT writings were fictionalized and B. your “swoon theory” I’d choose A and I’m a believer in the supernatural. see that’s the point, your “swoon theory” is unbelievable with a natural world view.
you can’t explain any of the problems with your theory from A. why didn’t Jesus just take off before they seized Him to ? ….. to Z. why would His followers, who were scared to death, become courageous/spill the beans He is still alive/die for His beliefs while He walks off into the sunset ? i’d say —- i’m glad you are still alive but I’m going back to my fishing business, live out my life and die an old man in my bed especially since Jesus says there is no resurrection.
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January 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
LMAO, I know Jesus died from suffocation because that is what doctors and scientists say would have happened if Jesus “swooned” either from drugs in the sponge or if He just passed out. just like the other 2 guys suffocated when their legs were broken, that’s why they broke their legs so they would suffocate. Jesus didn’t “swoon” and then they took Him down in a few minutes did they ? the NT writings don’t say Jesus was crucified differently from the other 2 guys does it ? the Jews wouldn’t have noticed this/nobody was there representing the Jewish leaders to see Jesus was killed ? the roman soldiers were all in on the conspiracy ? plus they stab Him in the side and He doesn’t die from that ? again, read what doctors and scientists say about the spear to the side. the NT writings have to be fictionalized if He didn’t die. you only turn your critical thinking skills on things you disagree with ?
now if Jesus drowned in cold water and they carried Him to the tomb and gave Him CPR that’s a different story
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January 20, 2019 at 9:06 am
Paul:
“….I know Jesus died from suffocation because that is what doctors and scientists say would have happened if Jesus “swooned” either from drugs in the sponge or if He just passed out…..”
You seem not to understand what words mean; for example, the difference between “know” and “believe”.
So here is the difference:
“know” : 1a(1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of
(2) : to have understanding of
importance of knowing oneself
(3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN
b(1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known
(2) : to be acquainted or familiar with
(3) : to have experience of
2a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of
b : to have a practical understanding of
knows how to write
3 archaic : to have sexual intercourse with
intransitive verb
1 : to have knowledge
2 : to be or become cognizant —sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech
“belief” : : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
her belief in God
a belief in democracy
I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique.
contrary to popular belief
2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed
an individual’s religious or political beliefs
In other words..
“know” is knowledge……..notice the first four letters in knowledge.
belief is non-knowledge notice the first prefix “non” :
non: : :
1 : not : other than : reverse of : absence of
2 : of little or no consequence : unimportant : worthless
nonissues
3 : lacking the usual especially positive characteristics of the thing specified
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January 20, 2019 at 11:26 am
According to Mark’s Gospel, Jesus endured the torment of crucifixion for some six hours from the third hour, at approximately 9 am, until his death at the ninth hour, corresponding to about 3 pm.
LTG
For my theory to succeed Jesus must survive the cross; Jesus must live
and therefore I defend the life of Jesus.
PV
For your theory to succeed Jesus must die on the cross and therefore you must defend the death of Jesus.
PV
You like your theory better because it defends death that must necessarily have taken place in order to defend the theory that Jesus rose from the dead by supernatural intervention.
LTG
I like my theory better because it defends life and the sanctity of life in order to defend the theory that Jesus necessarily survived and rose from the place of the dead by natural intervention.
PV
You believe in a God that is a Theity, a personal God, an interventionist God, who created the universe and who is intimately involved with its affairs. And you must defend theism because your God hears and listens to prayer and occasionally intervenes in human affairs.
LTG
I believe in God that is a Deity, called Higher Power(s); AKA God(s), but is not a personal God; my God is more like Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism,(GEM) and the Cosmic Elements (CE) My God does not hear, listen or intervene in human affairs anymore that Gravity hears or listens to human prayers to save you from falling; for example.
PV
Your God will resurrect you after you die.
LTG
My God resurrects me while I am alive.
PV
You believe because of indoctrination of others that has formed your opinion but you cannot define or describe your God or their God other than by using ambiguous terms like supernatural, paranormal and miracles.
LTG
I know God by myself, a priori and a posteriori, I can define and describe God by revelation because I have fallen down a number of times; experienced and watched the effects of Magnetism; I have been shocked by electricity many times on the farm where we had electric fences to keep the cows from escaping the pasture. We tricked and shocked out friends. I was schooled in chemical reactions and learned the elements, some operate in tandem like hydrogen and oxygen that I breathe and drink everyday.
LTG SUMMARY:
I like a God I understand and I know part of my God is within me because I have come from it. Jesus too came from the same God and opened the eyes, of those of us, who were blind before the day he revealed it to us. I was 12 years of age when I understood what he was saying to me. Jesus was about 2012 (+ / -) years of age. He is my BIG brother; I have let him down at times but when I rose again from the place of the dead, he was still at my side and he is still my BIG brother.
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January 20, 2019 at 5:04 pm
LTG …….. LMAO, but it’s you that believes Jesus didn’t die. the only evidence He didn’t die is from you saying “dead” doesn’t mean “dead.” the NT writings state as a fact He died that’s how I can say I know He died. plus based on the NT writings doctors and scientists confirm Jesus was dead.
your argument is based on the credibility of the NT writings stating He was alive after the crucifixion but if they aren’t credible saying He died before and after the crucifixion you can’t say they are credible and your argument crashes and burns.
that’s why the NT writings can only be used to support the resurrection. if the supernatural does not exist the NT writings are BS.
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January 20, 2019 at 5:08 pm
LTG, but the funniest part of your argument is it’s irrelevant to your world view if Jesus even existed. the NT writings could be a work of fiction and you could still practice what it preaches.
I wouldn’t practice what it preaches if not for the resurrection because it would be foolish to submit to loving your enemies with out a resurrection.
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January 20, 2019 at 5:48 pm
“…. it would be foolish to submit to loving your enemies….without a resurrection” ………sorry, your understanding is even more limited than I gave you credit for and you have no idea what it means…..
The disciples asked Jesus, “Why do you tell stories?”
He replied, “You’ve been given insight into God’s kingdom. You know how it works. Not everybody has this gift, this insight; it hasn’t been given to them.
Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears.
That’s why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they’re blue in the face and not get it. I don’t want Isaiah’s forecast repeated all over again:
Your ears are open but you don’t hear a thing.
Your eyes are awake but you don’t see a thing.
The people are blockheads!
They stick their fingers in their ears
so they won’t have to listen;
They screw their eyes shut
so they won’t have to look,
so they won’t have to deal with me face-to-face
and let me heal them.
“But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.
I will open my mouth and tell stories;
I will bring out into the open
things hidden since the world’s first day.
You are not ready to understand why we love our enemies but we must give them every chance to be saved, because we want that n one should perish. ……………….And so I say once again:
#1. When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
#2. “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son
of Man, but you will not see it ” And;
#3. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls
before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and
rend you.
And these three main scriptures, all related, have risen in the spirit as provided by you and it is time to depart from communication; it has reached its end too many times.
So from here on I can only wish you, as well as you are capable of receiving and will now leave you to your own devise rejecting the knowledge offered by the Son of Man.
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January 20, 2019 at 6:09 pm
He who puts hope in death has ho hope at all; it is a Pharisaichal torment. The Son of Man offers resurrection, because God is god of the living.
Jesus said, “You’re way off base, and here’s why:
One, you don’t know your Bible;
Two, you don’t know God.
And regarding the dead, whether or not they are raised, don’t you ever read the Bible? How God at the bush said to Moses, ‘I am—not was—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
God is God of the living, not God of the dead. You’re way, way off base.”
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January 20, 2019 at 6:39 pm
THE JESUS YOU DON’T KNOW?
Now remember, the Lord Jesus never preached from the New Testament, not because he didn’t like it, he just didn’t have it. Surprising how many Christians of long standing haven’t fully grasped the fact that the only bible the Lord Jesus ever had in his hand was the Old Testament. The only bible that the apostles used as they evangelized the then known world in one generation, Old Testament. The only bible the early church possessed, Old Testament. Let anybody undermine your confidence in the Old Testament scriptures and you’ve robbed the Lord Jesus and the early church of the only bible they ever possessed.
So it was the Old Testament the Lord Jesus took in his hand and yet the amazing thing is this: though this was that book from which the others were accustomed to preaching, when they listened to the Lord Jesus they were astonished,. For it says in the last verse in that chapter that he taught them as one having authority. Not as the Scribes; in other words, when the Lord Jesus got up, he spoke as though he said what he meant and meant what he said and had the right to say it. Nothing apologetic; he didn’t throw out a few suggestions. He didn’t say “I suppose”, “Maybe”, “I think”. His was a proclamation, not like the Scribe.
When the professional preachers got up they nestled in the corner of their pew and went for a quiet doze hoping they’d wake up just before the benediction and preferably after the offering. But when the Lord Jesus; when he got up, everybody was on the edge of their seat wondering what AMAZING thing he’d say next. He was an astonishing preacher.
If you were to turn on to the 13TH chapter of the same gospel, in the 54th verse of that 13th chapter of Matthew: “When the Lord Jesus was come into his own country he taught them in their synagogue insomuch that they were astonished and they said whence hath this man this man this wisdom, whence hath this man these mighty words and you recognize what they meant by “this man”.
You see he was altogether too ordinary, as some of us have reminded ourselves, they’d known him as a little baby, nursed in his mother’s arms, that seen him clinging to her skirt, they’d seen him romping in the streets with his village pals, he was the one who as an apprentice at the bench was learning his trade, he was the man who came and fixed the window when it jammed, “this man”. And they tried to rationalize.
You see, it would have been so much easier if he of had sort of a genius for a father or a mother, if he’d been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, everything that money could buy, he’d come back from this university and the other having gathered every kind of academic distinction and degree but he was too ordinary, “this man”.
Is not this the carpenter’s son, is not his mother called Mary and his brethren James and Joses and Simon and Judas and his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath “this man” all these things?
Now why were they astonished? You might quite sincerely say,
“Well they were astonished because they did not know that he was God”. But I think you’d be wrong. They were not astonished because they did not know that he was God; they were astonished because they did not know that he was……man.
Not man as they were, not man as you and I are….but man as he is God, created man to be. Real man. That’s what made him astonishing. You see, you and I can derive an immense amount of comfort from the fact that when the Lord Jesus came into this world he didn’t come into this world to behave as God; though God he was. He came into this world as man.
We remind ourselves that for the very first time since Adam fell into sin God in heaven could look at his son and see in him a man, a real man, could see himself, perfectly reflected. The word was made flesh, said John, and we beheld his glory. The reflected glory of his father, indwelling his humanity, manifesting himself, as God, through Jesus Christ as man. John 12:45: He that has seen me has seen him that sent me.
So he was the truth about God. He interpreted deity. In the physical, visible body of his humanity he gave not only a physical, visible expression of his own invisible self but an invisible self intimately identified with his invisible father who indwelt his humanity in the person of the holy spirit and whom he allowed from within his human spirit to gain total access to his human soul so that the father through the holy spirit could teach his mind, so control his emotions that the father in the son would direct his will and govern his behavior. So the Lord Jesus constantly testified: John 5: 19; John 5:30; “Without my father I can do nothing”.
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January 20, 2019 at 10:01 pm
“I am the resurrection and the life.” that’s the Jesus I know.
since your Jesus didn’t resurrect — he’s a Liar, Lunatic or Legend.
“dead” means “dead.” if it doesn’t the NT writings you use to prove your argument are BS.
I’ll be a believer (in your “soon theory”) if you have evidence Jesus didn’t die from suffocation or being speared in the side. been waiting for 4 yrs ? for you to provide it that’s why I’m still LMAO.
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January 20, 2019 at 10:24 pm
“Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side, piercing both the lungs and the heart, blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).”
years ago after first hearing about the “swoon theory” I read numerous accounts from doctors and scientists discussing the crucifixion of Jesus based on the NT writings. if those NT writings are correct it is impossible Jesus survived the crucifixion.
still waiting for your evidence any evidence that Jesus didn’t die from suffocation other then LTG says so.
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January 21, 2019 at 6:58 am
Another “Christian” lie…..the life Jesus gave up was his eternal life to be born a man. And, he didn’t die on Friday to rise on Easter Sunday. The biblical timeline is as follows:
Jesus spoke this on Sunday: Matthew 26:2
Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Based on Matt 26:2 Passover was on Tuesday evening.
Jesus was taken that night (Wednesday morning)
Jesus’ trial and crucifixion was on Wednesday afternoon.
He died and was buried just prior to sundown on Wednesday evening.
This was the first day of unleavened bread.
He was in the grave wed night/thur/thur night/fri/fri night/sat (3 days/3 nights)
God raised him from the grave just prior to sundown on Saturday evening.
The timing is precise because this was smack dab in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread week. The holy day depicting the removal of sin.
The “Christian” holiday of Easter is a lie.
The focus of his being on the cross is nothing more than a distraction and is a fundamental misunderstanding of who Jesus was. He was NOT “god in the flesh” which is a pagan concept.
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January 21, 2019 at 8:23 am
Paul V.
“waiting for your …..evidence any evidence that Jesus didn’t die….”
Biblical Evidence: Being alive is proof abundance that he was not dead, not asleep and did not die.
EVIDENCE ONE:
In John 20:17 Jesus sent Mary Magdalene off to tell His brethren that He is alive, (HE IS ALIVE)and verse 18 states that she obeyed.
Mark 16:9–11 adds that Mary Magdalene was the first to whom the Lord appeared and that the disciples did not believe her story.
EVIDENCE TWO:
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
Luke 24:36-49
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
EVIDENCE THREE:
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
John 20:19-25
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
EVIDENCE FOUR:
Jesus and the Miraculous Catch of Fish
John 21
1-3 After this, Jesus appeared again to the disciples, this time at the Tiberias Sea (the Sea of Galilee). This is how he did it: Simon Peter, Thomas (nicknamed “Twin”), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the brothers Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. Simon Peter announced, “I’m going fishing.”
3-4 The rest of them replied, “We’re going with you.” They went out and got in the boat. They caught nothing that night. When the sun came up, Jesus was standing on the beach, but they didn’t recognize him.
5 Jesus spoke to them: “Good morning! Did you catch anything for breakfast?”
They answered, “No.”
6 He said, “Throw the net off the right side of the boat and see what happens.”
They did what he said. All of a sudden there were so many fish in it, they weren’t strong enough to pull it in.
7-9 Then the disciple Jesus loved said to Peter, “It’s the Master!”
When Simon Peter realized that it was the Master, he threw on some clothes, for he was stripped for work, and dove into the sea. The other disciples came in by boat for they weren’t far from land, a hundred yards or so, pulling along the net full of fish. When they got out of the boat, they saw a fire laid, with fish and bread cooking on it.
10-11 Jesus said, “Bring some of the fish you’ve just caught.” Simon Peter joined them and pulled the net to shore—153 big fish! And even with all those fish, the net didn’t rip.
12 Jesus said, “Breakfast is ready.” Not one of the disciples dared ask, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Master.
13-14 Jesus then took the bread and gave it to them. He did the same with the fish. This was now the third time Jesus had shown himself alive to the disciples since being raised from the dead. Note: (SHOWN HIMSELF ALIVE)
The Prosecution cannot prove its case without a dead corpse; it has none.
The evidence, being witness confirmed, duly notarized and sufficiently presented, the Defense rests.
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January 21, 2019 at 8:39 am
Kim:
At the moment Jesus yielded up his spirit, the Temple curtain veil was ripped in two, top to bottom.
There was an earthquake, and rocks were split in pieces.
What’s more, tombs were opened up, and many bodies of believers asleep
(dead means dead unless it means asleep) in their graves were raised.
(After Jesus’ resurrection, they left the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.)
Dead means dead except: “Then Jesus said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up.”
Dead bodies do not bleed.
Doctors jump through hoops trying to explain how “water and blood” could pour out of a corpse, saying that “in rare instances” such a thing is possible.
However, if the spear thrust was pre-death, no such explanation is necessary.
It is worth noting that John’s Gospel is the only Gospel that gives an account of the mysterious spear, Synoptic Gospels have no account of the spear which makes John’s Gospel suspect. This makes John’s Gospel not only controversial but suggests possible manipulation of the text to conform or explain church dogma rather than a record of true and authentic accounts of the messages and life events of Jesus.
After God brought the people mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53 back to life, they undoubtedly went back to their homes, where many acquaintances saw them. It’s hard to imagine how utterly startling such an experience would be for their relatives and friends! On would think there would be numerous writings about this fantastic event but not one word outside Matthew’s account.
The Bible says nothing further about these people God resurrected at Christ’s death, leaving us to conclude that they eventually died (again) and their families buried them (again).
Along with all other saints who died, they await in their graves their resurrection to spirit life. Another big lie carried over from the Pharisees by Paul to the Christian world and presto Christianity duped again.
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January 21, 2019 at 10:01 am
a couple things about this……
John (as always) give his witness based on a different but still accurate perception of the Messiah. Paul backs his witness up.
Those people who came out of the graves at Jesus’ resurrection are mentioned in the Bible as having been instrumental in many being baptized.
1 Corinthians 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Of interest too…..the thief on the cross was among those who came out of the grave at Jesus’ resurrection. Again, Paul witnessed this and knew this man.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
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January 21, 2019 at 10:53 am
Kim:
Responsible for many dead being baptized is not an accurate reading of:
1 Corinthians 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
What Paul was talking about was the practice that developed whereby friends or family members would go to receive baptism on behalf of a departed loved one. In other words baptism by proxy and Paul was merely using that practice to legitimize the belief for the resurrection of the dead which was Paul’s big thing. Being a Pharisee he was a fervent believer in the resurrection of the dead, bodily and so used baptism by proxy as an example to push the resurrection doctrine.
Coincidentally it was because of the belief that Jesus was resurrected from the dead that Paul became an adamant promoter of Christianity mainly because of the following of Jesus whose belief that Jesus rose from the tomb bodily supported the Pharisaichal Doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead.
So my revelation dictates that Paul fabricated the blinding flash and Jesus apparition to infiltrate his way into the Jesus Group sect he could find a ready following for his resurrection of the dead Pharisee theory. Using the Jesus model Paul then began a crusade and practically single handedly became to some the Father of Christianity.
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January 21, 2019 at 11:08 am
Kim:
Paul was a bullsh—er too and ran with anything he thought he could get away with trying to piggyback off the gullibility of the Disciples supernatural skewed ideas.
IT says the graves opened when Jesus cried loudly and gave up the spirit so the blood of the thief didn’t even have time to clot when the graves of the dead opened and they sat around the cracked open tombs in the cemetery for three days, waiting for the first born of the resurrection was out of the gate before they could all go merrily home to their loved ones. More Christian lies from Paul. Paul never met Jesus other than in his miraculous encounter on the way to Damascus.
Of interest too…..the thief on the cross was among those who came out of the grave at Jesus’ resurrection. Again, Paul witnessed this and knew this man.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
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January 21, 2019 at 11:53 am
LTG, of course the NT writings say He’s alive after the crucifixion because they say He died and was resurrected, that’s the point oh delusional one.
the NT writings describe events which doctors/scientists state if occurred would have caused Jesus to die. you run away from this because you have no argument that Jesus didn’t die except this false logic loop you created in your own mind. which is —- according to the NT writings Jesus was alive after the crucifixion. there is no such thing as the resurrection. therefore, Jesus did not die during the crucifixion. and you don’t see why ILMAO ? please seek help from a mental health professional.
because your logical loop should go like this — based on doctor and scientific examination of the NT writings Jesus died during the crucifixion. there is no such thing as the resurrection. therefore, the NT writings must be made up/fictionalized/BS.
I believe in the resurrection based on the NT writings/scientific analysis and I’ve seen no evidence disproving the supernatural. but provide evidence Jesus didn’t die during the crucifixion and I’ll stop being a Christian. further, provide evidence nothing exists outside the natural world and I’ll stop being a theist.
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January 21, 2019 at 12:02 pm
Kim, I agree with that interpretation of the sign — 3 full days and 3 full nights in the tomb. but there are good arguments for a Thursday and Friday timeline too.
a god man is pagan based on ancient religions but also biblical. very easy to separate the two (ie Jesus and Tammuz).
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January 21, 2019 at 12:56 pm
Paul:
“I’ve seen no evidence disproving the supernatural.”
Then you must provide evidence of the supernatural because that is the statement you are making; the seven words above is not the statement; it’s an argument of ignorance.
In debates, appeals to ignorance are used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
You can’t move beyond ignorance when you Argue from Ignorance in which ignorance represents “a lack of contrary evidence”. It’s a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false.
What you have been doing for three weeks is making statements you can’t finish, without looking like an academic fool.
Here’s what you are really saying:
“I’ve seen no evidence disproving the supernatural.” therefore the supernatural exists.
Do you know that all water disappeared from the surface of Mars because of Reverse Gravity?
How do I know that? Easy.
I’ve seen no evidence disproving Reverse Gravity.
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January 21, 2019 at 5:07 pm
LTG ……. you haven’t provided evidence Jesus didn’t die by crucifixion, besides you say so, but I have to prove the supernatural ? LMAO ….. apples and oranges.
a natural world can’t come into existence by itself. something outside the natural world (ie. the supernatural) had to create it. that proves it for me, but you are free to argue “nothing is something” and “from goo to you via the zoo.”
now our argument —- did Jesus die during the crucifixion ? is within the natural world. this is a separate question and has nothing to do with my belief in the supernatural. all the evidence, biblical and scientific, proves Jesus died during the crucifixion. that means you are wrong and either the resurrection is true or the NT writings are BS. for the umpteenth time what is your evidence Jesus did not die during the crucifixion ? put on your big boy pants and spit it out, you can’t sound anymore foolish then you already have.
people like you are hilarious. it so funny how you want to talk about everything except for evidence Jesus did not die during the crucifixion. that’s one of the rc favourite tricks.
see I’m not obsessed with the relationship between suffocation and crucifixion. however, you are scared of it because it exposes your delusion. see, if Jesus passes out He can’t breathe and He suffocates. just like the other 2 guys suffocated because their legs were broken. plus there’s the spear thing. but all those doctors and scientists are wrong and LTG is right.
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January 21, 2019 at 5:19 pm
LMAO …… your argument ignores the possibility the NT writings are false. and is circular reasoning based on the NT writings saying Jesus was alive but ignores those same writings say He died and resurrected. and in one of the craziest things I’ve ever heard argue no problem because “dead” doesn’t mean “dead.” and you don’t see why ILMAO ? that’s why it’s so funny
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January 21, 2019 at 6:01 pm
PaUL:
The resurrection from the dead is false and your understanding of the New Testament in general and Jesus in particular, is BS.
I have already defined God, the natural God and that’s all there is so provide evidence for the supernatural; and we both know you can’t because your understanding and belief in that BS, is BS.
Post 267 has been provided, Evidence One, Two Three and Four.
Post 258 Defines and describes God, the Natural God not the BS supernatural God that the ancients used magic tricks to prove the supernatural God and dupe weak minded mankind for 10,000 centuries and your BS is the result of their deceit that contaminates all your understanding of scripture so that you believe th impossible and reject the possible.
You have everything backward!
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” Matt 23:13
In other words:
Frauds!
“I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.
And here are the two cardinal rules:
1: Read the words with a natural, not a supernatural slant for you can’t understand your own mind let alone supernatural imaginings of authors; imagination in the minds of mankind is as superficial as a child’s unknown boogieman. Don’t read the bible as a child and expect to understand it as an adult.
2: There is zilch; none, and no such thing, as “the word of God” for no God has ever talked to man; neither Isis, Buddha, Zeus, Brahma, Apollo, Horus, Ik Onkar, Jehovah or plain old God. But many authors have talked to and talked about, their personal imaginary caricature character. The best that man can say is that authors write on behalf of the character of their own devise.
Follow the above two cardinal rules and your mind will open to receive understanding.
The religious zealots in Isaiah’s day and Jesus’s day refused to give this key of knowledge to their congregation and to this very day: “So long as the priest and the professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is Truth? asked by pontius pilate, friedrich nietzsche and religious scholars everyday.
THE GOOD NEWS:
Religion is exponentially diminishing and its end is coming and will soon be replaced by the spirit permeating humanity like yeast permeates bread dough (parable of the unleavened bread-ever read it?) but which has been steadfastly stifled by the traditions of ignorance, argued from ignorance, superficial imaginations, superstition and religious zealots; and that is, give up the power of the lie of charlatanism.
And what is the destiny and what will the new wave use as a guiding pillar? This standard will be written “on the forehead” and in the hearing (metaphorically, in the mindet and on the heart ) of every man, woman and child:
This above all:
“To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou cannot then be false to any man.” (shakespeare’s character polonius – This kernel of wisdom is now taken as Shakespeare’s own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.)
Go back to your fishing business……
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January 21, 2019 at 6:47 pm
Your spinning your tires and saying the same thing like a proverbial broken record; you’re stuck and don’t have the wherewithal to move forward.
Sorry but I can’t help you anymore can’t help anyone who tramples on pearls of wisdom like swine in the pen snorting and snuffing just as Jesus predicted and cautioned us not to continue when it is too obvious there is no blood on the skin that’s left, to heal the wound on the supernatural scar, on the way downhill I can’t save you. I can’t try any longer, being rejected,
I withdraw. The last chance,
“…..your house is left unto you desolate
abuser of the messengers of the Highest Power
How often I’ve longed to gather your children,
gather your children like a hen,
Her brood safe under her wings—
but you refused and turned away!
And now it’s too late: You won’t see me again
until the day you say,
‘Blessed is he
who comes in
the name of the Highest Power.’ ”
Post 261
#1
#2
#3
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January 22, 2019 at 6:27 am
There is no other valid interpretation of the 3 day/3 night scenario. This was literal rather than metaphorical. Jesus himself said “there are 12 hours in a day”.
There is no valid interpretation of “godman” in the Bible. Any selected passage you can quote can be easily explained after removing the overlaying presumption of modalism/polytheism that is always made in quoting those selected passages.
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January 22, 2019 at 6:36 am
I can’t help you then. Rejecting the record of the witness is your own business.
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
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January 22, 2019 at 7:42 am
There are witnesses of events who speak what they know and what they experience and what they see and then there are infiltrators in Trojan horses. Discernment is spiritual insight required to separate dung from diamonds, not everybody has it; in fact, very few have it.
One of the worse philosophy offerings ever recorded and that many a Christian today still extravagantly use to support nonsense is the oft quoted
“…..faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
So this says simply that belief, if you just believe, that is evidence of what you hope for, wish for, pray for; it becomes the placebo that replaces “knowledge and tangible evidence” which explains why Christians easily change definitions to define “knowledge” thusly:
“The JTB account holds that knowledge is equivalent to justified true belief; if all three conditions (justification, truth, and belief) are met of a given claim, then we have knowledge of that claim.”
They mix a pinch of perceived “truth”, a teaspoon of justification and a few shakes of belief, bake in an imaginative oven and you end up with a loaf of knowledge. How bizarre is that? Well, that’s the twisted philosophy of infiltrators so that quotes by Paul supersede the quotes of Jesus, substituting the cornerstone foundation of Christianity for the tangential christian, cult-like foundation built on the sands of Paul’s Pharisaichal parasitic belief system; a gesture magically conjures Christian Contentment of Belief into “Knowledge”.
Many, both in the religious world and otherwise, have a gross misunderstanding of what constitutes faith. Contrary to “Paul’s filtered scriptural philosophy, many believe that faith’s necessity is that which “fills in the gaps” in the absence of real, tangible evidence.
Carl Sagan, the late and noted atheist and author, once said, “Faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence.” Paul says Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the “evidence” of things not seen.” I agree with Sagan.
I also agree with Jesus who said: “Truly, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?” John 3:11-12
And so the infiltrator’s quote is used and the founder’s quote left aside. That is the lie of modern Christianity from Acts onward.
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January 22, 2019 at 7:50 am
There is no such thing as “spiritual insight”. There is only insight. The “evidence of things not seen” are believing a witness. Jesus was a witness of God (that absolutely singular patriarchal Father). The apostles were witnesses of Jesus being the Son of God and the Messiah. The “evidence” for God is that diety has been hardwired into the human genome from humanity’s origin. Faith has nothing to do with believing a witness. It was the faith OF Jesus that was is described in the scriptures as instrumental in the Messianic event. NOT the faith IN Jesus. Consequently, your belief or lack thereof is irrelevant.
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January 22, 2019 at 8:29 am
I never think much about what you say anymore because your default position is “disagree with everything”, including quotes of Jesus or find quotes to override and deride even Jesus, someone you never knew and can never know. So I haven’t read much, if anything, credible from you. I would have to check but that would be worse than merely useless.
Like a Diploma from Trump University and your fossil fuel from the bottomless pit, hexagonal 666 BS, transportation “marks” of roadways BS, OMG your posts are so auto routed by default into the phony basket because everything you write is irrelevant.
You missed from the get go by incessant arguing; trying to project that you know everything, you show that you don’t know anything, but tons of nonsense.
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January 22, 2019 at 8:36 am
Oh, by the way the 3 days and 3 nights is not calculable except by nigglers who do not know the reality of scriptures because 3 days and 3 nights is a metaphor in the same way that forty days and forty nights is a metaphor. The same way that 144,000 is metaphorical and 666 is metaphorical.
What part of “know” don’t you understand?
You need to have more communications with Paul V. because you are both on a similar level.
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January 22, 2019 at 8:49 am
there’s nothing metaphorical about 3 days and 3 nights. 144,000 is allegorical and refers to the entirety of the 12 tribes of Israel. 666 is a chemical formula (6 aromatic compounds of the 6th element, carbon)…again nothing metaphorical.
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?
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January 22, 2019 at 8:53 am
I am the nemesis of hateful people like you.
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January 22, 2019 at 9:02 am
Not on e single thing in your post shows any understanding, not one thing dolt.
there’s nothing metaphorical about 3 days and 3 nights. 144,000 is allegorical and refers to the entirety of the 12 tribes of Israel. 666 is a chemical formula (6 aromatic compounds of the 6th element, carbon)…again nothing metaphorical.
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?
I’ll not waste time anymore telling you anything because Jesus cautions, not Paul, but Jesus: “…Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you…”
exactly what you do to every poster’s comments.
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January 22, 2019 at 9:09 am
A Nemesis is an impossibility for you to be because you don’t know anything.
What part of “know” don’t you understand?
Every part!
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January 22, 2019 at 9:33 am
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And the first day was 24 hours.
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January 22, 2019 at 3:28 pm
Kim, have you researched the various reasons for the different days of the week the crucifixion occurred ?
I’ll avoid the Wednesday crowd since you agree with that interpretation.
briefly — for the 3 days and 3 nights the Thursday crowd use the evidence that a partial day/night can count as a full day/night. the Friday crowd uses the evidence that it’s quoted as the third day and they show this means the day after tomorrow.
Thursday crowd uses the fact that’s when the lamb’s were killed so that’s when Jesus should of been killed.
Friday crowd uses their interpretation of the original Passover story that the left over lamb was burnt with fire the next day.
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January 22, 2019 at 3:30 pm
The picture I got from such personal attacks as your post shows was that of an evolutionary monkey sitting in a tree throwing its feces at the lion waiting below. roar.
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January 22, 2019 at 3:38 pm
Yes, I have actually. Neither corresponds with scripture. And, neither corresponds with the significance of the high Sabbath (the Saturday smack dab in the middle of the Feast of Unleavened Bread). Starting with the obvious…that God would not have dismissed the timing of the double Sabbath to raise Jesus from the grave, the only logical time corresponding to OT holy days would have been just prior to sunset on that Saturday. Counting BACKWARD would then mean 3 days/3 nights beginning with Wednesday evening. Jesus was clearly dead on the cross just prior to sunset and buried before that same sunset. So, the Passover supper would have had to be on Tuesday evening.
Sunday morning would be too late and is only of pagan origin related to the sun god rather than the Son OF God.
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January 22, 2019 at 3:58 pm
LTG, dude you are hilarious, more laughs then my favourite sitcom. at least those delusional fools that “venerate” the queen of heaven and worship her wafer god son keep both feet in their world view.
if the resurrection is false, is this scenario possible ? — Jesus died and the NT writings were faked/fictionalized/made up/fabricated/etc….. ? since you don’t answer my questions I’ll answer it myself. Yes, but not only yes more probable then your scenario. why you ask —- because if those writings are accurate Jesus died according to doctors and scientists. if Jesus didn’t die (as in dead really really dead) the NT writings are bs because scientific analysis of them proves Jesus would’ve died. also the fact according to your own words —- that you have to interpret the NT writings to de-super naturalize them to support your theory proves again they can not been taken literally.
see oh delusional one, you are doing what the “duped” do. it doesn’t matter whether the resurrection is true or false as to the question of did Jesus die or not. those are 2 different questions that you are tying together to support your delusion. you don’t even acknowledge the fact the scenario listed above is not only possible but more probable then yours because it doesn’t have any problems like yours does.
so based on scientific analysis of the NT writings I know Jesus died. based on the NT writings I believe in the resurrection. therefore, I could be wrong but unlike you I’m not delusional. now if you provide scientific evidence contrary to what I’ve seen that Jesus could’ve survived and be able to stand/walk and have wounds I can stick my fingers and hands in please provide it and I’ll agree with you.
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January 22, 2019 at 4:28 pm
Kim, there’s also the problem of interpreting when the lamb was kept and inspected before the time it was killed based on exodus. but the NT writings have been harmonized including the last supper taking place before the Jews had their Passover meal/the high holy day that week. it’s very interesting — they compare the original Passover meal of exodus and it’s commemoration with what the Jews did later.
the day of the week/Passover meal was one of the contradictions I was hoping would be a deciding factor but like the others there was always a reasonable explanation. so like most things biblical there was evidence for/against and depending on which position you held it was supported/not destroyed.
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January 22, 2019 at 5:05 pm
Kim:
Gotta love nigglers, niggling over niggles trying to gain niggle points, to show their prowess at the pearly niggle gate. Hmmm what is a day? Does a day include a night or does a night include a day.
How many hours in a day? 12 hours ? Kim says: “There is no other valid interpretation of the 3 day/3 night scenario. This was literal rather than metaphorical. Jesus himself said “there are 12 hours in a day”.Hmmmmmm.
Now here is question that nobody can answer and only some can rarely undertake to try and answer.
Is it colder up north than it is in the winter? Or warmer down south than it is in the summer? or are they equal?
From your home town Is it farther to New York than it is by plane?
Kim what do you think is the longer period of time? Never or Forever
Kim says: “….Jesus was clearly dead on the cross just prior to sunset and buried before that same sunset……” But is 3:pm just prior to sunset?
Since : “….According to Mark’s Gospel, Jesus endured the torment of crucifixion for some six hours from the third hour, at approximately 9 am, until his death at the ninth hour, corresponding to about 3 pm…..”
The day must actually start at 06:00am Gregorian Time.
But I Wonder, Woman.
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January 22, 2019 at 7:51 pm
For Christians or anybody actually to ask ‘Why does God allow evil’?. To me this is really a very silly question.
What is just as silly is Christians who try to answer the question of by defending God or blaming it on Man. So here’s the reality that needs to be considered.
Yes an Atheist can admit that there are Higher Powers that effect all Cosmos activity including life as we know it and understand it and yes an Atheist can also call the higher Power(s) God.
What Atheism really means is that the God Theists believe in, in that the higher Powers are personal to human beings and intervene into human affairs because of prayers through miracles that suspend the Laws of the Cosmos. therefore it is not that Atheists do not believe in God, it is that Atheists do not believe in a God that intervenes into human affairs so Atheism is not against God but against a personal God; its the “theism” part that A-theists are against.
Here’s an example. Of all the Higher Powers; say, Gravity, and you were going to skydive for the first time. So you’re flying around and the instructor says let’s jump…GO…. and out you go but OMG when it’s time to pull the open chute toggle, it’s stuck and doesn’t open. Not a pleasant thing for the skydiver but here is the problem that theist would have, what higher power would the theist pray to for intervention, Gravity?
The point is that Gravity to the Atheist, is one of the Higher Powers that is part of the Atheist God but one does not pray to Gravity nor can one reasonably expect Gravity to suspend itself to save the skydiver from crashing into the ground.
That is really the only difference between the Theist Gods and the Atheist Gods but it is a major difference because Theism has then to justify or generate laws and sin and righteousness and rules that other Theists decide what the rules and sins and penalties are in addition to the Higher Powers if ignored or experimented with, that might endanger us.
Besides the penalties of gravitational forces, possible shocking death of being out in the weather during an electrical storm or swimming in the ocean whose waves are churned by hurricane force winds and drown.
So penalties for sin transgressions Society must to live by with rituals by which to grovel and worship but Atheist need none of those things; Atheists simply accept they abide within the parameters of the higher Powers without prayers, sacraments, sacrifices, fasting, offerings and a whole slew of ritualisms that are as useless in one society, as different other ritualisms are useless in other societies.
What the world needs now is Love and freedom from religion, freedom from the tyranny of religion which complicates life more than the actual Higher Powers Gods of Atheists do.
So in summary “Gods do not allow evil” it’s man’s perception of evil, it’s man’s perception of Gods stupid.
Gods do not allow evil, Gods do not kill people. Gods of Atheists do not Kill People, Gods of Theism is a myth but by belief, People with Gods Kill People.
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January 23, 2019 at 6:30 am
Clearly, you don’t understand the Bible. The Sabbath was sunset to sunset. That is a day and a night. Jesus being in the grave has nothing to do with how the weekly Sabbath is determined. Except that Jesus had to have been raised on the high Sabbath…the weekly Sabbath that fell during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This was a Saturday. NOT Sunday. This one doubly holy day is impossible to ignore since the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a shadow of exactly what Messiah came to do…to remove the consequence of sin…..death. The timing of this event was not arbitrary nor was it metaphorical. It fulfilled the entire meaning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Nothing less would have sufficed and God would not have ignored the very feast He gave Israel depicting the specific reason for Messiah coming to raise Jesus on the first day of the week (Sunday). And, as you say, it was evening that Jesus died and was buried. Consequently, it was Saturday evening that Jesus was raised from death. NOT “Easter Sunday”. Stop being so obtuse.
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January 23, 2019 at 10:02 am
A LESSON FOR YOU, ET AL WHO CAN RECEIVE IT.
That God gave any instructions to Israel or any other supernatural, mythological believing group by putting rituals, sacraments, sabbaths and other religious gimmicks about Feasts and bread, leaven or unleaven in a Book and claim it to be God-given is not only irrelevant, it is ludicrous. God inspired attributes of love, kindness and all good things imaginable however can be claimed as inspired and that began in the Old Testament scriptures but there was none to carry it out and demonstrate it because religion and mankind devolved into a deceitful group of mockery egos, revengeful penalties.
Never talk about a man behaving like an animal, the animal kingdom doesn’t deserve that kind of insult. In the day that man believed the devil’s lie that a man could be man with the supernatural God and not the Divine Logic within you and embarked on that mad experiment of human self sufficiency, the holy spirit was withdrawn from the human spirit and man had a body and a soul just like any other animal but not being protected by instinct couldn’t behave like an animal and not now being governed by the Father couldn’t behave like a man so he behaves like the maniac he does and you and I are the heirs of the chaos and the anarchy and holocaust that is the inevitable consequence of man’s stupidity and Divine Logic is saying “….CLAP….” GET BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG!
Hence, when Jesus Christ entered into the world he said sacrifices and offerings you have not desired; in other words, the pragmatic, externals of mere religion are not satisfying to you Father. It isn’t that a man goes once a week in a piece of real estate. Or simply undergoes as a matter of tradition and form certain sacraments.
Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired but instead Father you have made ready a body for me to offer you, father. Then he said, “Lo here I am come to do your will oh God, to fulfill what is written of me in the volume of the book.” The volume of what book? Well the Old Testament Scriptures. That is, the Book that was written about goodness but never carried out in goodness because the Book was merely Mankind’s attempt at playing God based on a personal intervening God, a worship hungry, grovel-making ego God like Man in the image of himself, a revenge system of penalties and all that made up stuff about rituals and sacrifices and offerings and sabbath sacraments. God did nothing of the kind and gave nobody instructions of the kind. Man, playing God, input all the pettiness, filth and degradation of a human race filled with the dirt and muck in the mire of religious insanity using magic tricks for the supernatural, and called it CHURCH.
Thank you Father for the body that you prepared for me to offer. And everything Jesus did was out of respect within, love within, caring and benevolency within. He interpreted deity to have so done, by giving life to humanity in particular and everything else in general.
Thank you Father for the body that you have prepared for me to offer you so that I can do your will oh God everything that is written of me in the volume of the book. I am the lamb slain by mankind as a ritual since the foundation of the world when Cain slew Abel in envy of Abel’s righteousness but the time has come Father for that story, in terms of the flesh and blood of my incarnate humanity to be told so I want you to know Father that the body you prepared for me and gave me when I was born at Bethlehem I now present to you to do your will. His body.
That’s the Christian life. For every step you take for every new situation, you get out and you let him get in, you vacate and he occupies, You say thank you Lord, you may need hands, here they are, you may need feet, here they are, you may need lips, here they are, you may need a mind to think with, a heart to love with and I’m available. And you’re in business. You’re big enough, and I, reflecting the identity of the invisible Father within through my visible humanity can rightfully proclaim to be a Son by the reflection I mirror.
And he moves into that situation and demonstrates his marvelous integrity and that experience becomes a memory and in the next step into a new situation, you thank him again, you handled the last situation in a most marvelous way and I now have a supreme, unshatterable confidence that you can do now what you did then, thanks, you’re in business. I vacate and you occupy.
And once more he demonstrates his integrity and now you’ve got two experiences and two memories, two memories to undergo faith on the next situation. And this is really a corker. Ten times worse . Then you say Lord Jesus, fantastic, here’s a chance for you to be ten times bigger than you were last time. Marvelous.
And so one step at a time you vacate and he occupies, you vacate and he occupies, you vacate and he occupies. You vacate and he occupies and you discover the Christian life is one vacation after another. Until you’re finally always on vacation and he’s always in business. And you’ve discovered the secret of living miraculously.
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January 23, 2019 at 2:34 pm
That is one of the most human-centric rants about diety that I have ever read. You’ve made your own god and probably don’t even realize it.
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January 23, 2019 at 4:29 pm
The most difficult part to accept when the Key of Knowledge is finally revealed; the single hardest reality to come to grips with is the realization that you have been erroneously lulled into the world of deceit and that you have been wrong all your life about everything you were ever told, indoctrinated by, casually heard or piously lassoed because we are all seeker in early like until the callouses stiffen and eventually desensitize us by the farce our brains are bombarded by.
Do you remember the little book that was put in your mouth and was sweet to the taste but when you swallowed it, it was sour to the tummy.
Now that I have given you the key of knowledge, the Key that Jesus indicted the Pharisees, Scribes, and Lawyers of because they kept it hidden for the last ten thousand centuries. And now, it’s up to you to let its savour permeate your doughhead like yeast until the leaven works through all the dough …(that’s what the Kingdom of Heaven is like). once you have acquired the yeast (the Key) and because everybody is a doughhead, the rest is up to you. The old adage you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink applies.
Lk11:52 To refresh your memory; this is Jesus speaking: “Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.
So what you say about me is nothing less and hardly as much as what the religious zealots of Jesus day said to him when he told them the same thing then that I am telling you now.
But this Key of Knowledge; AKA, the Truth that the clergy have kept hidden in order to stunt brains and become the wealthy powerful masters of the masses and whose wealth, for all intents and purposes, is incalculable.
The Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints in the U.S. is valued at $40 Billion; that is, Forty Thousand millions.
Of course and I understand. But this is the God of the Cosmos not of the Israelites, Christians, XYZ Denominational Mythologies of early(and now modern) mankind………….. Yippie Yi Ohhhhh, Yippie Yi Yaaaaay the myths of …………………………………… Mankind distorted our beautiful day…….
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January 23, 2019 at 4:36 pm
Wish Well, Give Hope, Help Heal.
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January 23, 2019 at 4:58 pm
Kim:
Thank you for the compliment; the way I received it – Post 299, subtle but smart and you may not even realize it.
However in my (opinion) revelation), this is not a God that I have made; this God (Higher Powers) I describe has made me and you, the Red, Green and Blue and I take no credit. Nor do I expect anyone outside of the following, to even understand what is profound at first glance.
You may be familiar with this cautionary advice: “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.” jc
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January 23, 2019 at 5:12 pm
“For Christians or anybody actually to ask ‘Why does God allow evil’?. To me this is really a very silly question.”
not sure who brought it up first —- but it’s atheists that bring it up to me. that’s one of their biggies for God does not exist. and I agree it’s silly because God has a remedy — the resurrection.
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January 23, 2019 at 5:16 pm
Noted and filed.
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January 23, 2019 at 6:48 pm
Is a resurrection that important? Jesus thinks not.
I know that the resurrection is a central tenet of Christianity without which there would be no Christianity but Jesus offered a parable that denied the dogmatic promotion of the Resurrection; yet in doing so, Christians sorely limit their options pinning all their hopes on one single, and, in my opinion, a miracle that never happened.
Jesus himself said “they have Moses and the Prophets, Jason, Theosophical Ruminations, Posters, some dissenters, few questioners, lots of Christian enthusiasts and then you have the rare bunch, LTG et al intellectuals who, being not content to simply believe the myriad of “we have the answers”, “the true messenger”, “the true God”, ” “the true religion”, the true Church”. WOW.
And this conundrum is not a new phenomenon; this same group was around during the time of Jesus and they badgered whoever they could to seek, and knock and implore and pray to, to flatter and compliment just to get some answers that they could rely on but in those days as in these days, religion and church is a buffet line offering meat and desserts and perks for proselytes
Ånd even when all the song and dance is not adequate and people not quite satisfied they cried out give us a resurrection from the dead and we can then rest content and believe. But Jesus said resurrection is useless.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19-21 “There once was a rich man, expensively dressed in the latest fashions, wasting his days in conspicuous consumption. A poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, had been dumped on his doorstep. All he lived for was to get a meal from scraps off the rich man’s table. His best friends were the dogs who came and licked his sores.
22-24 “Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. He called out, ‘Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I’m in agony in this fire.’
25-26 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It’s not like that here. Here he’s consoled and you’re tormented. Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.’
27-28 “The rich man said, ‘Then let me ask you, Father: Send him to the house of my father where I have five brothers, so he can tell them the score and warn them so they won’t end up here in this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham answered, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets to tell them the score. Let them listen to them.’
30 “‘I know, Father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but they’re not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.’
31 “Abraham replied, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, they’re not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.’”
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January 24, 2019 at 6:26 am
I’ll quote you……….”the god YOU describe”. I still don’t think you realize that in defining/describing “god”, you have made yourself a back pocket deity. I’m not attacking you on this…..just pointing out a very common error that has been made for 2,000 years by some of the greatest religious “leaders” on record. These are false teachers preaching a stolen task (to preach the gospel….which was 100% completed by the apostles and Paul) without any directive to do so and their only authority is the money they steal in direct opposition to Heb 7 which clearly disannuls tithing. A practice which was to the Levitical priesthood…NOT to self-proclaimed evangelists in human-contrived religious organizations.
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January 24, 2019 at 6:44 am
That’s a valid interpretation. As is mine.
However, the father of Christianity was Alexander. Not Paul.
When Jesus said “I will build my church”, he wasn’t referring to an organization. He was prophesying of his return and gathering his elect (the “elect” are NOT “Christians” but those few with whom God and/or he chose personally….Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, the apostles, Paul, etc). It is the members of this gathering who will never know death again. He was NOT inferring some perpetual abstract or concrete church organization. He WAS referring to the resurrection of those handful of “elect” at his return. And, that resurrection will not include “us”. WE are the “rest of the dead”. That should sober and humble each and every one of us. But, far too often, cults and churches tell us that we’ll see Jesus returning and will be resurrected to that event. That is a lie.
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January 24, 2019 at 8:47 am
“(the “elect” are NOT “Christians” but those few with whom God and/or he chose personally….Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, the apostles, Paul, etc).”
Kim, where does that leave us common folk ? Are we damned ?
Naz
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January 24, 2019 at 9:20 am
When Jesus spoke of the Son of Man in his day; iI take the position that Jesus was not speaking about himself because he spoke of the Son of Man in the third person: as, the “Son of Man in HIS day”.
When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? . This is not saying, will I find any faith; but, will HE find any……..
So to my understanding, He never refers to the future “Son of Man” as “returning”or “coming” or “in his day”, in the first person ( I, me) because he was not speaking about himself as THAT Son of Man, but to ANOTHER, similar “Son of Man”.
I believe the Sons of Man is a generational Son of Man, born among us and rising to prominence by the way they live and behave in the service of humanity for the benefit of the greater good.
4 Ezra 52 (Hebrew Bible)
He said to me, “Just as no one can explore or know what is in the depths of the sea, so no one on earth can see my Son or those who are with him, except in the time of his day. ,
1 Enoch 46:2-3, (Hebrew Bible)
2 And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This is the son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness, And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,
Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.
Daniel 7:13, (O.T.)
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
Practically all of the divine instructions received by Ezekiel were addressed to him as “thou son of man,” or “O son of man,” or “Son of man,” and the same privileges and responsibilities were also laid upon Jesus.
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January 24, 2019 at 10:24 am
Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
In context this passage continues from the end of chapter 17 of Luke. The context is about judgment in the final days. The Son of Man refers to the resurrected Christ when He returns to the earth.
The parable of the persistent widow is a picture of faith. Faith is what saves and faith is what God will be “looking” for. Again this is said in figurative language but the meaning is clear.
“Daniel 7:13, (O.T.)
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.”
The passage above from Daniel is a prophecy about the return of Christ. There is a parallel passage in Thessalonians which speaks of the same event.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Leo, I disagree with your interpretation and with your whole theology. Not to worry, you like the rest of us will see the real Jesus one day.
Naz
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January 24, 2019 at 11:04 am
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
2 Corinthians 11:4 New Living Translation (NLT)
4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.
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January 24, 2019 at 11:07 am
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
this is “us”.
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January 24, 2019 at 11:25 am
Kim, so we are appointed to judgment ? What is the verdict ?
Naz
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January 24, 2019 at 11:27 am
Naz:
(The parable of the persistent widow is a picture of faith. Faith is what saves and faith is what God will be “looking” for. Again this is said in figurative language but the meaning is clear.) meaning is not clear to Naz.
“3 In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Grant me justice against my opponent.’ 4 For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, ‘Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. Both parables speak to persistence. His parable is even named as “The Parable of the Persistent Widow” KJV
Naz this parable is not a picture of faith; it is a picture of persistence; and, Jesus even said it was about persistence and used a second parable to illustrate the same persistence in the story about the man’s friend who had visitors from a far land but nothing to give them to eat:
“Luke 11:5. And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves;
6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’;
7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything’?
8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs. (Importunity synonym = “persistence”)
The passage above from Daniel is a prophecy about the return of Christ.
What makes you think that Daniel was prophecying about Christ return before Jesus was even born? That would put Daniel getting ahead of his skis prophesying the “after” (return) before the “before”(birth) existed.
—————————————————
There is a parallel passage in Thessalonians which speaks of the same event.
————————————————-
non-sequitur
I discount almost all of N.T. Scriptures beyond Acts and Pharisaichal musings of Paul who was promoting his Pharisee beliefs. Additkoma;;y they are puled scriptures from elsewhere of which they had no understanding but seemed appropriate to a supernatural crowd that believed in dream vision ramblings and upon which most of the OT is based.
(There is a parallel passage in Thessalonians which speaks of the same event.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.) These mean nothing to me and they meant nothing to Jesus which is why Jesus never quoted dream visions.
————————————————————-
I prefer that you quote Jesus not Paul.
Naz the only thing you said in that post that I agree with is: “Leo, I disagree with your interpretation and with your whole theology.
And the last thing you are so absolutely wrong about is: “….you like the rest of us will see the real Jesus one day……”
The reason you are wrong about that is because I already see the real Jesus and know and understand the real Jesus while I am alive….you think you will only know the real Jesus one day, which is the terrible focus the Clergy has you focused on and you cannot understand that is not going to happen because they have been pulling the wool over the eyes of all bona fide seekers for ten thousand years.
Use the common sense you were given as your birthright and follow the two cardinal rules I have learned from Jesus and one of the few things that Paul was right about “Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true.” Belief proves nothing and never will; it’s knowledge that sets you free and that is truth…… but Jesus said that the clerics , and scholars and religiously insane promote the agenda of their own passion for pence and power: said Jesus of them and to them and for which they squirmed like salted slugs was ” ….Woe unto you, lawyers!(Scribes and Pharisees and Religious Scholars) for ye have taken away(and hide) the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered….”
Now Naz I will compliment you this way: you are not a dolt, a dunce, or a dimwit, so what in the world do you think Jesus was talking about when he accused them of hiding and taking away the “Key of Knowledge”? HUH? and hindering those seekers from finding?
Oh and the two cardinal rules you need to take as companions for your understanding?
And here are the two cardinal rules:
1: Read the words with a natural, not a supernatural slant for you can’t understand your own mind let alone supernatural imaginings of authors; imagination in the minds of mankind is as superficial as a child’s unknown boogieman. Don’t read the bible as a child and expect to understand it as an adult.
2: There is zilch; none, and no such thing, as “the word of God” for no God has ever talked to man; neither Isis, Buddha, Zeus, Brahma, Apollo, Horus, Ik Onkar, Jehovah or plain old God. But many authors have talked to and talked about, their personal imaginary caricature character. The best that man can say is that authors write on behalf of the character of their own devise.
Follow the above two cardinal rules and your mind will open to receive understanding.
Cheers, Naz. I am not against you. You are a chick scurrying about for the wings of Mother Hen’s refuge; all sincere seekers are but we get sidelined by the charlatans who are supposed to be on our side, not on the side of Mother Church.
Leo
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January 24, 2019 at 11:59 am
Kim the rest of the story you left out: why did you leave that part out?
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And we answered:
12 “while we were watching the Lord ascend over the horizon brow, we wondered when we would see him again, while the billowing dust cloud kicked up by the entourage of wagon wheels and beasts of burden rose skyward and slowly dissipated into the air revealing a vacant brow now missing our friend.
13. And we were wishing he would turn around. As our eyes followed the billowing cloud tears clouded our view though we could not stop looking, hoping he would appear again on the brow of the horizon, as we watched, coming back to us, kicking up in a new dust cloud to give us the hope of his return.
14. And our hope lingered within our heart as our eyes gazed after him until you asked us what we were gazing at.
15. And we awoke from our thoughtful joy.
Now you know the rest of the story that you left out Kim. But it’s not your fault. The editors also left it out in their compilation. Why did they leave that part out Kim? Do you know Why? Can you speculate why?
Oh well.
One day someone will reveal things hidden since the foundation of the world.
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January 24, 2019 at 1:02 pm
“I discount almost all of N.T. Scriptures beyond Acts and Pharisaichal musings of Paul who was promoting his Pharisee beliefs.”
You have it backwards Leo, Paul was arrested by the Pharisees because he was preaching against the Pharisee teachings. Read below ….
Act 21:27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.”
Paul resisted even the high priest and called him a white washed wall …sound familiar … those are the same words Jesus used …
Act 23:1 And looking intently at the council, Paul said, “Brothers, I have lived my life before God in all good conscience up to this day.”
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?”
Paul was not promoting Pharisee beliefs, he was promoting the resurrection of the dead .. visa via through Jesus Christ.
Act 24:20 Or else let these men themselves say what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the council,
Act 24:21 other than this one thing that I cried out while standing among them: ‘It is with respect to the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you this day.’”
Leo, you should really read the book of Acts… again. You will find your version of Jesus and Paul does not exist in reality but only in your deceived mind.
How could a smart person like yourself be duped like that ?
Naz
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January 24, 2019 at 1:42 pm
Paul WAS promoting Pharisee beliefs, he was promoting the resurrection of the dead which was a pillar of Pharisee belief and infiltrated the small band of Jesus followers because they too were promoting the resurrection based on their belief that Jesus resurrected from the dead instead of surviving the crucifixion.
Paul conjured up an apparition about being blinded by Jesus in a vision and used that story to infiltrate the small band of followers, the same followers he previously had arrested and murdered in his persecution. Through that infiltration Paul believed that his pseudo conversion could position him to eventually lead that small band of brothers and that his education, contacts obfuscation and persuasive technics from his Roman upbringing, the stage was set and was successful as he almost single handedly brought Christianity into the centuries that followed. even today Christians are more inclined to quote Paul for everything Christian rather than Jesus which really annoys Jesus followers.
So when you quote swathes of Paul you are wasting Christian Capital on me; there are too few things that I agree with Paul about certainly none about Jesus.
Jesus then appeared alive to the Band of Brethren through the period needed to completely heal from the ordeal before he emigrated and left the country forever, putting the land that forsook him and his campaign in the rear view mirror and leaving his country in a cloud of dust.
Now Paul was arrested by the Pharisees not because he was a Pharisee because the Jewish Council did not know Paul’s background but when they learned that Paul was himself a Pharisee and more frightening than that, that P he was a Roman Citizen and not common rabble among the band of brothers, they were in fear for themselves and changed their tune in a hurry after that.
The biggest problem you have in communicating with me is that Jesus is my mentor and so the source is with me.
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January 24, 2019 at 4:06 pm
ah…a Very good question but easily answered. Unlike what you might have been taught, the Bible is not religious tome on how to live. It is a document of conviction against mankind. The Bible is witness against us and we are convicted by it. The judgment is of course death. The only hope we have is that after being thus convicted, Jesus has paid the price for us. Consequently, such hope is in the form of being saved from death. And, being saved, a transformational inheritance into life (eternal life….ie/life which has existed from eternity rather than some form of perpetual existence) is gifted to those who have anything worth saving (our good works). Some more than others. Some not at all and thus payment for sin doesn’t help. Without anything worth saving, death remains in spite of Jesus’ payment.
All this takes place in a singular event long after Jesus returns. His coming is to prepare the world for that day (Mal 4 is about his coming return….NOT him being born over 2,000 years ago). If he does not return, the extinction of man at the presence of God (not Jesus) is a surety.
So, The “great and terrible day of the Lord” is not the return of Jesus as so many presume. It is judgment day for the “rest of the dead” and that means “us”. We shall rise to that judgment from our graves brought back to life by the presence of God as He is. It is His burning presence that determines whether we live to be transformed or simply burn up, never to be brought back from death…this is the second death. Death without hope of resurrection.
God is a consuming fire…..is interpreted as “a consuming fire comes from God”. THAT is judgment day.
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January 24, 2019 at 4:31 pm
LTG, “Is a resurrection that important? Jesus thinks not.” dude you are hilarious. “I am the resurrection and the life.”
Paul was promoting the resurrection of the dead because that is the corner stone of Jesus’ teaching. Paul’s words harmonize with Jesus’ when considering the audience, no need for a similar decoder like you use on Jesus’ words to de-super naturalize them.
how did you come up with this bizarre belief system where “dead” doesn’t mean “dead” and “resurrection” doesn’t mean “resurrection ?”
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January 24, 2019 at 4:47 pm
LTG, “Paul WAS promoting Pharisee beliefs, he was promoting the resurrection of the dead which was a pillar of Pharisee belief and infiltrated the small band of Jesus followers because they too were promoting the resurrection based on their belief that Jesus resurrected from the dead instead of surviving the crucifixion.”
and Jesus was promoting the resurrection also. however, those that run Jesus’ words through your special decoder disagree. and your evidence for this —- I say so.
LMAO, because based on scientific analysis of the NT writings Jesus died, really really died. therefore oh delusional one, if the resurrection is not possible the NT writings are not reliable which blows your “swoon theory” right out of the water.
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January 24, 2019 at 4:49 pm
What a most useless and ridiculous piece of mythology.
To promote that a Creator, Wonderful and Benevolent God has suddenly turned on and turned the Created into a most abhorrent creature deserving nothing but death is so Old School, so Ancient Fear Mongering, so Out To Lunch and so Third World ludicrous stupidity that it is hard to believe, in this day and age of modernity that there are such useless and meaningless imaginings still abounding in the minds of religious insanity….OMG…..
Kim you are so bewildered, so out of touch with reality, so living in the past ancient science fiction type world why not try to get a day job and wash dishes or wait on tables because for someone able to communicate the most absurd dreams, you definitely have a problem .
“Terrible day of the Lord.” How Old School; How so ancient, so pathetic..
Kim you have to get a day job……You are just regurgitating too much blood curdling science fiction, unbelievable, clergy inspired, demon augmented, hell fearing, mass hypnotic inducing, irrational torture programs of a stoneage man just out of the cave for the first time.
judgment is of course death, death remains, extinction of man, “great and terrible day of the Lord”, We shall rise to that judgment from our graves, or simply burn up, never to be brought back from death……….
This is so uninspiring it makes me want to go out an preach in the streets against the God of Death, Destruction and Demonic Demise,,,Ahhh count me out of your idea, I am not a candidate for your idea eternity.
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January 24, 2019 at 4:52 pm
Kim, it’s a “conviction against mankind” why ? because we didn’t live up to it’s commandments. so it is a “religious tome on how to live” according to your own words.
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January 25, 2019 at 8:13 am
Many teach that following and literally worshipping the Bible will “evolve” one into salvation. That isn’t true. It was what the Jews were doing at the time of Jesus by adhering to the law in every detail. Yet, Jesus called them sterile graves full of bones (whited sepulchres) and hypocrites. The Bible is a warning now and the record of it will become a witness against humanity in the day of judgment.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
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January 25, 2019 at 8:32 am
God is a God of life. not death.
Mankind was created mortal. As is all the creation.
It was a merciful thing to do and the opportunity at life is an unimaginable gift.
Or, would you rather have had another egg/sperm combination have been born instead of you? The probability that “you” were born into life is so low that the value of “you” is incomprehensible.
a question………….an eternity existed prior to your birth. Do you remember it? Of course not. Yet, when Jesus came out of the baptismal water and was declared the Son of God, his returned memories of that past eternity drove him near to death for over a month. It was only after that event that he proclaimed himself the “Son of God”. Prior to that he called himself “Son of Man” only the understanding of who he actually was. Not the memories.
We have no such cognition of the past prior to our birth. Consequently, it appears to us as if it never existed. Yet, it did and that is what God offers us. Not simply perpetuation of our existence. It is an incalculable gift.
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January 25, 2019 at 8:40 am
KIm:
If there was a contest to rename the Bible I think winning contenders could be:
Ancient Mythology Morphed:
Mythology Revised:
Modern Mythology & Modern Man:
Modern Mythology:
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January 25, 2019 at 8:46 am
Kim:
I wrote about the pre-life Eternity of which you speak some time ago; it is short.
THE GATES OF ZYGOTE:
Once upon a time I was floating in a beautiful milky cloud of peace when suddenly, I received a telepathic communication, no words, no signs, just an understanding:
“The time has come”.
Immediately upon receiving the communication I was thrust into a wormhole funnel and emerged out into the dazzling light of a shimmering angel in my vision, an irresistible invitation and I hastened to propel forward. I reached the angel; the essence of my being enveloped the embrace: we became one; as suddenly as in the milky cloud, I was yet again overwhelmed with understanding: I had reached a destiny; I was in warmth and security; I was Home:
The Gates of Zygote, from whence I would eventually be birthed so that all there is of Good available to s/he who is available to all there is of Good would be avaiable to me. And that’s all it takes for you to dream the dream.
When you understand who and what, why and when, from where and how; the Daughters and the Sons of Man come, you will see them as s/he/we are and you’ll be like them, returning to retrieve men from their folly like an emergent baby son/daughter of man, fresh out of metamorphosis. And you become once again the next generation.
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January 25, 2019 at 10:20 am
Kim, you said …
“Consequently, such hope is in the form of being saved from death. And, being saved, a transformational inheritance into life (eternal life….ie/life which has existed from eternity rather than some form of perpetual existence) is gifted to those who have anything worth saving (our good works). Some more than others. Some not at all and thus payment for sin doesn’t help. Without anything worth saving, death remains in spite of Jesus’ payment.”
Are you saying we are saved if we have done enough good works ? If so, how does a person know if you have done enough good works ? Does God grade on a curve ? What’s a passing grade ?
Also can you explain how Jesus’ payment for sin does NOT work completely ?
Thanks.
Naz
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January 25, 2019 at 10:29 am
Naz:
Kim’s scenario is scary isn’t it? Especially if you never did any good works. Despite Jesus having put his life on the line to revolutionize religious insanity.
What is your Grade Naz? I hope Kim will not hand out the Grades. lol 🙂
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January 25, 2019 at 12:21 pm
I don’t think you understand…..Jesus was a man. His mortal death would not have paid for the sins of an entire planet of humanity whether he lived a perfect life or whether he was crucified or not. It was the fact that he was the Son of God, a Person who had ever existed from eternity and who lowered himself to be the man Jesus that he was of such incalculable value as to save billions of mortal men. And, it was the fact that God worked to make circumstances leading up to this sacrifice of an eternal existence that Jesus (revealed to be that pre-existent Son (NOT God) who obediently lowered himself), was able to come into the world without blemish through a chosen people/lineage, to live a perfect life and with his death for a mere 3 days and 3 nights, paid for billions of potential deaths. We are saved by the Son’s eternal life..not by Jesus’ mortal life. The value of such was far greater than the sum of all humanity. Yet, not enough to save the angels who rebelled. The reason being that each of those angels also existed from eternity and are not created beings as man is. They will pay for their own sin with their own eternal life. But we have the Son of God to thank for our hope. Don’t sell that short.
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January 25, 2019 at 1:10 pm
Kim, it looks like you sort of changed what you are saying … sort of ….
I understand that we are saved by Jesus eternal life, in fact, when we are born again, we receive the very life of Christ. However, I don’t understand how Jesus’ mortal death does NOT pay for sins ? The bible is clear that it was death and resurrection of Jesus that saves us.
Am I missing your meaning ? I’m just trying to wrap my mind around your wording…
Leo, I think the both of us would fail miserably if we were graded … 🙂
Naz
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January 25, 2019 at 3:12 pm
I can certainly understand your confusion. Christianity has taught a form of salvation that just isn’t true. Forgiveness of sin is not salvation. The two concepts are distinct. And, being “born again” isn’t what is taught correctly either. First, judgment must take place unto condemnation. This is a future event. Not a past event. Grace is not “unmerited pardon” as religion teaches. It is a delay in judgment so humanity isn’t instantly wiped out. By grace are we saved from that scenario. However, that isn’t salvation either. It is merely a delay in judgment. And, judgment is said by the Bible to be at the resurrection and in the future (who knows how long that will be) but it doesn’t matter because just as we know nothing of the passage of time before birth, we will know nothing of the passage of time after death until the resurrection. And, at the resurrection, we will be judged by and in the presence of God as he actually is (and condemned). However, it is at that time that the payment for sin comes into play, which is the sacrifice made by Jesus, the Son of God. And after payment, then and only then salvation, in which those worth saving (ie/who have some form of good works to show, etc) are transformed by that same presence of God to inherit eternal life (life which has ever been) or in the absence of anything worth saving, to be simply burned up. That is the “born again” which the Bible describes and/or the “second death”. Being “born again” is NOT the abstract elitism religion portrays. So, all have hope in Jesus. We just aren’t there yet….not given the “Holy Ghost” (breath of holiness was given for a specific purpose and is not given today), not “saved”, not “born again”. Haven’t you ever asked why Jesus has to return? It is to prepare the world and humanity for judgment day. If he doesn’t return, we’re all doomed in that scenario too. Read Mal 4 in light of the understanding that the second coming of Jesus is the Elijah and that this passage is about that second coming and judgment…the day of burning. It will make all this a bit more understandable.
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January 25, 2019 at 4:20 pm
KIm:
You said: “…….I don’t think you understand…………” But what you don’t understand is that I do understand and this has been my position for years: Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, “….for the sins of an entire planet of humanity…..” ; that is Christian Church Dogma Hogwash….
You see, you are a recent poster to “Theos Rumina…..” I have been posting on this site since 2013…this is my sixth year……So you know very little about what I understand because you have missed out on five years of posting.
Most of my posts now, are summaries of previous, more detailed posts over that period of time. In fact the only poster who was an early contributor is Naz; all the others have fallen by the wayside like so many sown seeds landing on infertile ground without strength of conviction.
Most of the early posters who disagreed with my interpretation of Deity, disagreed not of their own accord because they had none but disagreed on the accord of those who indoctrinated them since childhood and their convictions were stunted early while their common senses were in maturation
In other words, clearly those early few months and years of life are a very sensitive time and whatever ideas are imprinted into the soft putty of the unformed mind at that stage stays there pretty much forever and yet for some reason, here in the civilized world, it’s still perfectly legal for us to indoctrinate our children with the most hateful and divisive absurdities it’s possible to imagine. Creating in them not young, vibrant, healthy, inquiring minds but rather stunted little freakish bonsai minds that are no use to anyone but a proselytizing blood sucking preacher.
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January 26, 2019 at 12:39 pm
Those of you who speak of God:
You speak of God as if God was a relative, a friend, a buddy on the trail. No, God is not a relative, a friend, a buddy on the trail; God is a concept, a Caricature Character Concept made in the image of Man. God is a metaphor for the Higher Powers Life Forces qnd that, made in the image of many men depending on their home culture, tradition and religion however the higher powers are not limited to a village, town, city, state, nation, country.
Isaiah 1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw 2 Gve ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished children, they have rebelled.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
“Listen to my Message, you Sodom-schooled leaders. Receive the Higher Power revelation within you, the common sense you were born with, you Gomorrah-schooled people.
“Why this frenzy of sacrifices? Don’t you think I’ve had my fill of burnt sacrifices, rams and plump grain-fed calves? Don’t you think I’ve had my fill of blood from bulls, lambs, and goats? When you come here, whoever gave you the idea of acting like this, running here and there, doing this and that—all this sheer commotion in the place provided for worship, reflection and meditation of what is good for humanity?
Quit your worship charades. Your pretentious self righteousness. I can’t stand your trivial religious games: Monthly conferences, weekly Sabbaths, special meetings—meetings, meetings, meetings—I can’t stand one more! Meetings for this, meetings for that. I hate them! You’ve worn me out! I’m sick and tired of your religion, religion, religion, while you go right on sinning, playing church instead of praying for guidance to do what’s good, right and proper for all the people in all the land, in every way.
When you put on your next prayer-performance, I’ll be looking the other way. No matter how long or loud or often you pray, I’ll not be listening. And do you know why? Because you’ve been tearing people to pieces, and your hands are dirty. Go home and wash up. Clean up your act. Sweep your lives clean of your evil doings so I don’t have to look at them any longer. Say no to wrong. Learn to do good. Work for justice. Help the down-and-out. Stand up for the homeless. Go to bat for the defenseless, the downtrodden, the dreamers.
Oh My Goodness, OMG! Can you believe it? The chaste city has become a whore! She was once all justice, everyone living as good neighbors, And now they’re all at one another’s throats. Your money is as worthless as counterfeit. Your wine is watered down. Your leaders are turncoats who keep company with crooks. They sell themselves to the highest bidder, grab anything not nailed down and boast of the bribes that make them wealthy. But they never stand up for the homeless, never stick up for the defenseless.” Isaiah 1:10 Woe to you who stumble to your end, when you are caught unawares. Guess this Author? LeotheGreater Rebuking Christians? NOT
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January 27, 2019 at 12:15 pm
Kim:
God cannot be JUST the “God of Life”; that’s an impossibility; an absurdity beyond reason. God must necessarily be God of Life AND God of death.
For how can it be otherwise? God must be God of everything” good, bad and the ugly,
I don’t know why Christian believers have to place limitations on their God in some instances and unlimited in others.
The God of Atheists is the God of the Cosmos, is the God of the Cosmos is the God of Everything and Everybody, Everywhere on Earth and in the Cosmos. How can the Higher Powers not be pervasive. It is a ridiculous notion that God is only God of those things that seem favourable to Mankind and his ILK like he was the manager of a political party.,,,Egads if that were so!
And I must take exception to your take on being “born again” to mean that is when one is raised “in death” to give account of their sins. Born again is born into life, not death. (Kim: That is the “born again” which the Bible describes and/or the “second death” ) this is diametrically opposed to what Jesus described “born again” to be when he visited Nicodemus in the middle of the night: OMG where did you get your information and what cult are you following to arrive at such an outlandish interpretation. You do not make sense by any stretch of the imagination.
Listen to the meeting of Jesus and Nicodemus:
(Knock knock)
“Come in.”
“Up so late?”
“Oh yes”, I imagine, said the Lord Jesus. “Waiting for you”
“What do you mean waiting for me? This is the middle of the night; how did you know I was coming? You’re a stranger to me.”
“Oh yes. I may be a stranger to you Nicodemus but you’re no stranger to me, come in, sit down”.
Remember the story?
You’ll find it in 3rd chapter of John’s gospel.
There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus. THE ruler of the Jews. That means he was the senior theologian in the city; member of the Sanhedrin. A man whose name made news; he was reputed to be the third richest man in town. And because you see he wasn’t satisfied with the conclusions to which his own theological colleagues had come who believed that Jesus Christ was a fanatical street preacher, an illegitimate child of a lying, faithless, ignorant Galilean peasant girl, Nicodemus, one of the best of the bunch, an honorable man with a sincere love for God wasn’t prepared to swallow that. But he was a little self conscious. He didn’t like to be seen in broad daylight doing the smartest thing he could, visiting the Lord Jesus to talk to him personally so he came in the middle of the night.
And I imagine that finally when he came in, surprised! He said,
“Master, you’re exceptional; you’re quite extraordinary and I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s no possible explanation for your life but God.
Master, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; no man could do these miracles thou doest except God be with him. There’s only one possible explanation for the quality of the life you live, the things you do and the things that you say and the man that you are, God.
And I imagine that in so many words said the Lord Jesus, Nicodemus, you’re absolutely right. I am exceptional; as a matter of fact, I am the exception. And you’re absolutely right Nicodemus, there’s only one possible explanation for my life, the things I do and what I say and the quality of life I live, God. Don’t misunderstand me Nicodemus; not because I am God, though God I am, Nicodemus.
But there’s no explanation Nicodemus for what I do and say and am, not because I am God but because I am man. Man Nicodemus, as God created man to be because you see Nicodemus for the first time in all history my father can look at me and see a man whose prepared to let him be God.
You’re right Nicodemus and I’ll tell you something; you’ll know absolutely nothing about the divine sovereignty operative within human personality until there takes place in your experience that which puts God back into a man. It’s called being “born again” Nicodemus.
You see Nicodemus except you be “born again” you will not see the kingdom of God that is all ready and waiting for you, it’s already there, “within you……..”
Well, that was pretty baffling for Nicodemus.
He said how can a man be born twice when he is old? Can he enter into his mother’s womb a second time and be born? And immediately advertised that this poor man deeply religious as he was, sincere without a shadow of a doubt he was, he advertised the fact that he only knew one quality of life. That quality of life that you and I receive by natural animal birth from natural animal parents.
That which is born of flesh is flesh that provides a man with a body and a soul, both of which are functional and a human spirit totally destitute of the holy spirit, a man physically alive, soulishly active but born dead.
And Nicodemus didn’t know it. How can a man be born twice when he’s old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born? Well no, of course, not Nicodemus. You’ll never be born twice that way. But you see, the quality of life that you receive by your natural animal birth Nicodemus, cultured as you may be, wealthy as you are, deeply and sincerely religious; that quality of life is born of the flesh. You inherited from a fallen member of a fallen race of fallen men.
You see Nicodemus, only that which is born of the holy spirit, is spirit. And you see, that’s never happened to you Nicodemus……..Because you have substituted religion for life. A relationship to church for a relationship to God.
Marvel not that I say to you and all people Nicodemus, you’ve got to be born from above and you’ve got to receive from God in heaven that quality of life for which man was made as you received from your animal parents that body in which you live. And until that happens Nicodemus you’ll never know what it is for a man to be indwelt by God and come under that divine sovereignty that allows God to be God in the man Nicodemus.
You’re right; I’m exceptional because I’m the first man Nicodemus that was ever born being conceived of my father God incarnate whoever came into this world since Adam fell who is both physically alive, soulishly active and spiritually alive. You see Nicodemus, you were born uninhabited by God, inhabited only by sin. I was born uninhabited by sin, inhabited only by God and so everything I do Nicodemus because I let my father do it, is what he does, everything I say Nicodemus, is what my father says, because I let him speak. everything I am Nicodemus is what he is, because I allow him my father as God to be who he is in me Nicodemus, the man.
And the only thing Nicodemus that demonstrates the validity of my claim to be who I am, the son of God, is the authorship, the origin of what I do and what I say and what I am. My father who lives in me, he does the work.
You see Nicodemus, I just happened to make man that way as God and I came into this world, though God, to play the role of man so you’d know how I intended you should live. Any questions Nicodemus? Any questions Kim?
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January 28, 2019 at 6:09 am
Kim, are you affiliated with a particular church group ? If so, what would that be? I only ask as it might be helpful to understand your beliefs.
I disagree with most of what you are saying. But to keep it simple I only have one question for now, how many good works must we do to be “worth saving” and how is that measured ?
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 7:33 am
I have no religious affiliation and am an independent bible researcher with a doctor of divinity. My studies have focused on various religious organizations including old order german Baptist out of Indiana, Pentecostal out of Kentucky, armstrongism cult out of California, eastern orthodox and Lutheran. All good works will be saved I think. Remember the cup of water passage. How that will be is beyond me. In asking that question, you’ve missed the point.
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January 28, 2019 at 8:23 am
God is God of life. As Jesus said, “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
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January 28, 2019 at 8:45 am
Kim, “works” are not saved, people are saved. Do you agree ?
You have said that only those worth saving will be saved based on their works.
To rephrase my question then, how do we know if we are saved ?
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 9:01 am
Kim…… if you don’t understand Naz’s question it ‘s you that’s missed the point.
no need for a doctor of divinity to see Jesus’ message —- saved by grace through faith not works & love your enemies. most religions/sects are works based and you kill your enemies not love them. you don’t see anywhere in the bible where it says a person could do good works but not be rewarded by God ? I do, and that proves you wrong.
is your interpretation of Matthew 10: 42 —- if Hitler gave a cup of cold water to “one of these little ones” he’ll be saved ? you can’t lose what you don’t have.
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January 28, 2019 at 9:20 am
Salvation is God’s to give but through the faithfulness of Jesus we have hope.
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January 28, 2019 at 10:13 am
Kim, yes salvation is God’s to give and yes it is through the faithfulness of Jesus, not our faithfulness, that we have hope.
So in light of the above, please answer my question :
How do we know if we are saved ?
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 11:15 am
That should be obvious…we won’t know until we are. However, its as much like castaways on a desert island as anything. Who, seeing the rescue boat approaching from over the horizon, who shout in joy “we’re saved!”. But, in reality, they haven’t been saved until they’re on the boat and headed back to civilization.
Jesus’ parable about Lazarus (specifically named) and the rich man (generically identified) is concerning the two resurrections. Lazarus the beggar ate crumbs in life but was resurrected (in the first resurrection) to the bosom of Abraham (obviously “saved”) but the rich man awakes in the second resurrection to await judgment and knowing he didn’t help Lazarus, doesn’t know what to expect. But there the story ends except the rich man finds out that he can’t go back and that the gulf (of time) between him and Lazarus won’t do him any good. So, the story ends with the rich man (depicted as the “rest of the dead” or “US”) waiting to see what happens.
But, I wouldn’t worry about it. We’ll find out in that day. I trust God.
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January 28, 2019 at 11:44 am
Kim:
I see that your post 337 is quoting from my post 262 and that’s a good thing.
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January 28, 2019 at 12:31 pm
“……..saved by grace through faith not works……” is a message from Paul, not Jesus.
“…….love your enemies……” is a message from Jesus
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January 28, 2019 at 1:13 pm
“……..Jesus’ parable about Lazarus (specifically named) and the rich man (generically identified) is concerning the two resurrections………”
No, it is not about two resurrections; it is about two places for the dead; one place where the unsaved cease to exist and one place for the saved to rest.
Both are religiously inspired and both are wrong. Because nobody knows other than when the dead are excavated as in archeological sites or otherwise exhumed. What is revealed after the passage of time is that the body turns into dust and the bones remain. That is all we know. And the utensils left for assistance in the next life remain unused…so much for absolute certainty of the religions of those day, as it continues to be for religions of these days when people tell you that they know the absolute certainty of death and after death and resurrection etc. it is all the speculation of religious men/women today who are still reading the nonsense of people who were living in the time of those mummified bodies were entombed. So good luck with your parody of the ancients all you absolute certainty gurus and psychics.
Jesus however referred to heaven as the Kingdom of God and he referenced that the Kingdom does not come with observation, it is not something you can visibly see for the Kingdom is within you. Lk 17:20-21
Not only that but if you were to bring concepts within the kingdom out into the open where they can be seen and help and enjoyed by all. like the lowly yet simple health benefit “the bandaid” or vaccines that prevent debilitating disease like polio; that, is indeed an answer to the part of the prayer called the Lord’s Prayer: “….thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…..” and many things are brought out into the open from that place within and who is the resident in the Kingdom…..and if you said God(s) (The Higher Powers)…..you would be correct because all life forms and non life forms consists of those higher powers within the cosmos. To name a few from LTG’s Good Book verses:
[25] HIGHER POWERS? Almighty powers? Sure! stardust and forces, gravity and electricity, light, magnetism, black holes, dark energy, dark matter, big matter, small matter, no matter………….
[26] BUT, personal supernatural gods that intervene in human affairs, occasionally, by prayer, hope, wish, dream, supplication, entreaty, petition, plea, request, do not exist except in the minds of men put there by religious miracle workers of magicians perpetuated by clergy wannabe God messengers for their own name in vain agendas.
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January 28, 2019 at 1:41 pm
Naz:
Kim says in the last line when you will know….Post 342
“….We’ll find out in that day…..”
Because she does not know nor can she. She can only guess that you will know in that day which is the same thing you said to me in Post 310
“….Not to worry, you like the rest of us will see the real Jesus one day……”
I think Kim is talking about the same day as you were………..
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January 28, 2019 at 4:38 pm
Leo, what I said to you was in a different context. Every one will see the Lord one day and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD whether your saved or not. That was my meaning.
This is totally different than finding out “IF” you’re saved on the last day. This is not how it works. Our salvation is not wishful thinking or a maybe or a hope so … the salvation of a believer is secure, certain, guaranteed and secure.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 4:55 pm
Naz I don’t put the same credence in Paul’s philosophy as you do or as other Christians do to quote Paul as though he had some special insight.
I think Paul was an opportunist who infiltrated the small band of Jesus followers and took advantage of them to move his Pharasaichal resurrection belief agenda.
So quoting Paul doesn’t add support for your ideas more than your own reasoned philosophy.
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January 28, 2019 at 5:04 pm
However the context doesn’t matter for the time of knowledge that Kim mentioned regarding when you would know if your salvation is secure because she has no idea how good works are recorded and kept. She is simply saying, like most Christians that you’ll know if you made the cut when you die but that’s no comfort anyone from where I sit.
That I have to die to know anything is no comfort to me and I would never set the bar that low to attain anything if you can’t retain your own life. It’s a wishing well coin toss and that does not guide my life.
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January 28, 2019 at 5:22 pm
Leo, that’s my point too ! There is no comfort in not knowing which nullifies that whole notion. The gospel message is based on “knowing” not a maybe.
I’m not wishing well coin tossing my life either …..I know that I know ,,,that’s my comfort.
I think on this we could at least agree.
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 5:26 pm
The resurrection from the dead cannot but be false and Christian understanding of the New Testament in general and Jesus in particular, is off base. Christians are carnival barker dupes of the why and how the religious program was constructed. If resurrection from the dead was true it would be happening all the time but it’s not.
Religion has no credibility; it only has tradition and it won’t be long before the tradition itself will be seen for the stonageism it was born out of that could only work until the day of knowledge; and we are already there as the BS of faith healing Benny Hinns and Peter Popoffs is only as good as the placebo effect science has revealed it to be effective.
I have already defined God, the natural God and that’s all there is so provide evidence for the supernatural; and we both know you can’t because your understanding is through belief.
The supernatural God that the ancients used magic tricks to prove and dupe weak minded mankind for 10,000 centuries. Religious deceit contaminates all understanding of scripture to believe the impossible and reject the possible. They make stuff up.
You have everything backward!
And here is the # 1 cardinal rule:
1: Read the words with a natural, not a supernatural slant for you can’t understand your own mind let alone supernatural imaginings of authors; imagination in the minds of mankind is as superficial as a child’s unknown boogieman. Don’t read the bible as a child and expect to understand it as an adult.
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January 28, 2019 at 6:08 pm
Leo, we’ve been down this road before. Without the resurrection from the dead, Jesus is a fraud and the whole bible is fiction.
Let’s eat and drink for tomorrow we die !
Naz
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January 28, 2019 at 6:50 pm
Naz:
I agree. Most of the bible is a fraud and run by fraudulent leaders. In Jesus indictment of the leaders in Matthew 23 many of the indictment accounts begin with the phrase: “I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom.
And it was this very thing that Jesus decided to start his campaign to testify of the religious world, that their works were evil John 7:7 because I expose the evil behind its pretensions.
I agree with Jesus and I hope you do too.
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January 28, 2019 at 7:05 pm
Naz:
The very first Book of Genesis was the Foundational Fraud that set the narrative for the fraudulent deceit since day one that convicted every man woman and child as guilty sinners and every generation since has gone though the religion’s fraud of forcing the masses to wallow in the guilt tripping the whole foundation was built on and around to convict the whole world to rob them of their wealth and acquiesce to the leaders.
THIS IS THE Ancient Religious Tradition:
God’s will, so called, is revealed in the “holy” scriptures. The sacred book formulates the will of God and specifies what is to be given to the clergy. Clergy become parasites. “… All things of life are so ordered that the clergy is everywhere indispensable; at all the natural events of life, at birth, marriage, sickness, death. Natural values become utterly valueless. The Clergy sanctifies and bestows all value. Disobedience of God (the clergy) is ‘sin.’ Subjection to God (the clergy) is redemption. Clergy use ‘sin’ to gain and hold power.
Sex without Clergy permission is sinful, lust, fornication, adultery. And this original sin everybody was born by according to the authors of Genesis.The true marriage of a man leaving his mother and clinging to his wife was suddenly the beginning of all sin because the true marriage was an anathema to the plan for using sexual activity against all mankind and from which none could escape as it was the essence of life itself.
It was Judaism with its heartfelt resentment against life, that first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw filth on the origin, on the essential fact of our life. Others blame Christianity but Christianity and Islam merely followed Judaism promoting the filth of sexuality by shaming all aspects of sexuality.
Procreation without religious accreditation became ostracized bastards, women were forced to wear tarpaulins with slits for eyes in cloth to cover the power of their beauty appeal whose mere vision of their beauty seduced men and gods alike.
Using procreation as the original sin nobody on earth escaped the guilt save the those chosen by hierarchy to execute their religious insanity.
SUMMARY:
Judaism made sex the original sin, wrote the Book of Genesis to support the narrative about the way to life, procreation.
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January 28, 2019 at 7:07 pm
The Classic Scam on the whole world.
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January 28, 2019 at 9:18 pm
Naz, Kim et al:
Maybe, just maybe, Christians are “….putting all their eggs in the proverbial basket….” when
THE CASE AGAINST RESURRECTION WAS MADE BY JESUS HIMSELF.
I know that the resurrection is said to be a central tenet of Christianity without which there would be no Christianity but Jesus offered a parable that denied the dogmatic promo of the Resurrection; yet in doing so, Christians sorely limit their options pinning all their hopes on one single, and, in my opinion, a miracle that did not occur.
Jesus himself said “they have Moses and the Prophets, Jason, Theosophical Ruminations, Posters, some dissenters, few questioners, lots of Christian enthusiasts and then you have the rare bunch, LTG et al intellectuals who, being not content to simply believe the myriad of “we have the answers”, “the true messenger”, “the true God”, ” “the true religion”, the true Church”. WOW.
And this conundrum is not a new phenomenon; this similar group was around during the time of Jesus and they badgered whoever they could to seek, and knock and implore and pray to, to flatter and compliment just to get some answers that they could rely on but in those days, as in these days, religion and church was a buffet line offering different meat and desserts and perks.
Ånd even when all the song and dance was not adequate and people not quite satisfied they cried out give us a resurrection from the dead and we can then rest content and believe. But Jesus said a resurrection from the dead was useless.
So when I hear Christians discounting anyone who dare discount the resurrection, the foundation of their Belief is but a House of Cards. If their entire reason for living and believing and dying in the hope of getting a reward for believing a resurrection; Wow, they obviously missed Jesus’s parable why a resurrection means nothing and why it is useless.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19-21 “There once was a rich man, expensively dressed in the latest fashions, wasting his days in conspicuous consumption. A poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, had been dumped on his doorstep. All he lived for was to get a meal from scraps off the rich man’s table. His best friends were the dogs who came and licked his sores.
22-24 “Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. He called out, ‘Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I’m in agony in this fire.’
25-26 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It’s not like that here. Here he’s consoled and you’re tormented. Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.’
27-28 “The rich man said, ‘Then let me ask you, Father: Send him to the house of my father where I have five brothers, so he can tell them the score and warn them so they won’t end up here in this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham answered, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets to tell them the score. Let them listen to them.’
30 “‘I know, Father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but they’re not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.’
31 “Abraham replied, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, (Jason, Theosophical Ruminations, Posters, some dissenters, few questioners, lots of Christian enthusiasts and that rare bunch, LTG et al, intellectuals,) they’re not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.’”
And that was Jesus telling the story……they’re not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.
So, I ask Kim and Naz, what is the point of setting the foundation of Christianity solely on the Resurrection when Jesus himself said it was pointless to send someone who rises from the dead? If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, Jason, Theosophical Ruminations, Posters, some dissenters, few questioners, lots of Christian enthusiasts and that rare bunch, LTG et al, intellectuals, they’re not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.
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January 28, 2019 at 10:08 pm
LTG ……………. “THE CASE AGAINST RESURRECTION WAS MADE BY JESUS HIMSELF.” LMAO, they weren’t convinced by some one who resurrected. the real delusional ones said He never died on the cross and the others said His body was stolen by His followers
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January 28, 2019 at 10:20 pm
Paul and everybody else in the NT agrees with Jesus ——— “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
no LTG secret decoder need “believeth in me” = faith in Jesus which allows us to access the grace that saves us.
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January 29, 2019 at 6:57 am
“THE CASE AGAINST RESURRECTION WAS MADE BY JESUS HIMSELF.”
To echo Paul V …. LMAO !!
This is intellectual dishonesty. If you don’t believe in the true Jesus that’s your choice but don’t insult peoples intelligence with this nonsense,
Naz
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January 29, 2019 at 8:01 am
Naz:
I quoted Jesus from the bible regarding his parable so you can accuse Jesus of “intellectual dishonesty” or the bible because you fail to understand
I think parroting Paul is a bridge too far though I’m sure he will be pleased to have another misled Christian ally supporting his rear. Paul’s method of debate is ad hominems whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument. Be careful who you wish for to support.
Let me say it again: Jesus through his character Abraham said “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets …..they’re not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead……” or “from the place of the dead”.
Are you saying that Jesus’s words mean nothing? Are you not clever enough to use Jesus as a sidekick to prove your words? Well, I do and I quote Jesus and the scriptures he alludes to while you do not. Theists have a theology; I am not a theist.
Jesus answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Was this a meaningless statement too?
I know I need to tell you that “belly of a big fish….” is a metaphor because you and others undoubtedly take the literal meaning that Jonah was actually in the belly of a big fish. If you re-read the story of Jonah without supernatural eyes, you’ll clearly see that Jonah did not struggle inside the belly of a big fish and that his struggle was against the sea waves and the seaweed to keep himself from drowning, “in the place of Sheol” until finally, he washed up on shore by a wave and not spit out by a big fish’s mouth.
Does intellectual dishonesty apply only to people who “do not accept” most events as miracles when occam razor’s simplicity trumps the bizarre.
People who judge others more critically than oneself is intellectually dishonest.
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January 29, 2019 at 9:32 am
“you’ll clearly see that Jonah did not struggle inside the belly of a big fish and that his struggle was against the sea waves and the seaweed to keep himself from drowning, “in the place of Sheol” until finally, he washed up on shore by a wave and not spit out by a big fish’s mouth.”
Jon 1:17 And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the belly of the fish,
Jon 2:10 And the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land.
If the fish is a metaphor it would not be used as it is in this passage, It was a literal fish. I understand there are times when we must read passages as metaphorical and not literal, this is not one of those times. I don’t see how you can negate the fish with the literal reading of this passage. It’s not metaphor.
Mat 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Even Jesus refers to the fish. If it was to be taken as metaphor He would speak in this manner about Jonah.
Naz
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January 29, 2019 at 10:52 am
Everything in the Bible has to start and end with God, it was designed that way.
Jesus refers to a couple lines of the Story as it was titled in scripture because that’s how the story was projected to the audience similar to Jesus’s own parables.
You used the titles of the Jonah story but deliberately avoided the actual story itself. Now Naz, I am not going to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty because you used titles to support your literal interpretation because that would not be a fair criticism of you anymore than it was a fair criticism of me. I only remind you of this and I’ll say nothing more about it; except to say it is not an uncommon ploy for writers to offer parts or pieces of a paragraph, scripture or otherwise, for example, that support the author’s perspective and leave out parts that may not.
And so it is from this vein that I will answer your Post 361
The Book of Jonah: the very first sentence begins with a metaphor and the very last sentence ends with the metaphor. THIS is quite possible to help the understanding to make the story more appealing to children’s understanding who may be just learning about Jonah for the first time. So the fish example would be perfectly logical to help a child’s understanding for a near death experience than drowning. I don’t know this ; I am only offering a reasonable possibility because children would easily identify with possible cartoonish-type characters, in picture sketches which is the way the story is depicted in cartoonish characters today.
But the essence of the story is for adults is the reality of a near death experience by drowning to understand is the important issue here; the meaty substance of the story between the opening metaphor and the closing metaphor. So with that in mind let’s read the story again what really happened.
Now briefly the sailors drew straws of the people on board to explain why this huge storm suddenly came down upon them and as superstition would have somebody on board must have sinned and the rest of the crew was being punished so they asked Jonah who is your God what did you do, where have you come from. Eventually Jonah, believing I suppose, that the men were about to kill him as a sacrificial lamb to quell God’s wrath decided to he would have a better chance for survival so he told the men to throw him in the sea and the storm would cease raging. For a superstitious lot that would ease their conscience and they asked not to be blamed for Jonah’s death:
in Chapter one “12 Jonah said, “Throw me overboard, into the sea. Then the storm will stop. It’s all my fault. I’m the cause of the storm. Get rid of me and you’ll get rid of the storm.”
13 But no. The men tried rowing back to shore. They made no headway. The storm only got worse and worse, wild and raging.
14 Then they prayed to God, “O God! Don’t let us drown because of this man’s life, and don’t blame us for his death.
They threw him overboard; they were not that far from shore and had already tried rowing there but could not…..Jonah knew this.
Chapter 2
At the Bottom of the Sea
2 1-9 Then Jonah prayed to his God from the belly of the fish.
He prayed:
“In trouble, deep trouble, I prayed to God.
He answered me.
From the belly of the grave I cried, ‘Help!’
You heard my cry.
You threw me into ocean’s depths,
into a watery grave,
With ocean waves, ocean breakers
crashing over me.
I said, ‘I’ve been thrown away,
thrown out, out of your sight.
I’ll never again lay eyes
on your Holy Temple.’
Ocean gripped me by the throat.
The ancient Abyss grabbed me and held tight.
My head was all tangled in seaweed
at the bottom of the sea where the mountains take root.
I was as far down as a body can go,
and the gates were slamming shut behind me forever—
Yet you pulled me up from that grave alive,
O God, my God!
When my life was slipping away,
I remembered God,
And my prayer got through to you,
made it all the way to your Holy Temple.
Those who worship hollow gods, god-frauds,
walk away from their only true love.
But I’m worshiping you, God,
calling out in thanksgiving!
And I’ll do what I promised I’d do!
Salvation belongs to God!”
10 Then God spoke to the fish, and it vomited up Jonah on the seashore.
He made it to shore.
So Naz, between the two metaphors(one metaphor starts the story and one metaphor ends the story) there is absolutely no mention of any fish, only the near death experience of fighting against the sea to stop from drowning, the seaweed, being dragged down and holding his breath until he surfaced again. The account is fully about not drowning in the sea grave, the place of Sheol etc.
As for the three days and three nights in the belly of the fish itself may be a metaphor because three days and three nights is a description meaning a “short time” duration compared to “40 days and 40 nights” meaning a long time duration whether the duration is in hours, days, months or years. 40 yrs roaming in the wilderness, 40 days and 40 nights of rain the time of the flood, the time Moses was in self exile escaping Egypt, Not every event is necessarily a literal time duration.
Cheers
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January 29, 2019 at 10:58 am
LTG …… LMAO, dude are there voices in your head saying you are the second coming ?
you do/started the ad hominems, I’m responding as I interpret do onto others, since you do it to me and others you must want others to do it to you. years ago, I just asked you for the reason(s) why you believe Jesus didn’t die during the crucifixion as the NT writings state as fact in hind site. and you went bat shit crazy, I thought that was hilarious, you should go back and re-read that exchange. still waiting for those reasons, why not admit you don’t have any and you have to twist and pervert the NT writings to protect your delusion.
but you can “dupe” yourself into thinking Jesus said “resurrection” but He didn’t mean “resurrection.” and He said “dead” but He didn’t mean “dead.” and He said “alive” but He didn’t mean “alive.”
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January 30, 2019 at 10:26 am
Kim, to continue our dialogue … our salvation is not a “maybe”, not a “hope so” it is a guarantee otherwise we could not call it good news. Don’t you agree ?
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
We are sealed when we believed in the Lord Jesus and it’s not by our good works because as the bible says “no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law”. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. We are all worth saving because Jesus died for the whole world.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
We are not the “rest of the dead”. We are part of the first resurrection, those of the second resurrection are damned to Hell in the second death. This is the final snuffing out of those that are not Christ’s.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Naz
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January 30, 2019 at 10:34 am
Naz:
Don’t believe a word Paul says; Paul didn’t even know Jesus except when he was hunting, prosecuting and murdering his followers. And then made up a story to infiltrate the small band of followers remaining so he could promote the Pharisee resurrection which was his religious upbringing and the resurrection from the place of the dead, like Jonah, was in vogue with the small band who thought it was the resurrection from the dead instead of from the place of the dead…just like Jonah.
It seems to me Naz that you are wearing a lasso around your neck.
Just because it’s in the bible doesn’t mean it is not dupery…..
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January 30, 2019 at 10:48 am
Leo, I disagree with you wholeheartedly about Paul and the resurrection. Paul WAS a persecutor of Christ ….not any more …
Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, …..
Naz
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January 30, 2019 at 10:58 am
Peter Popoff preached the bible words which are Paul’s I hasten to add. While wearing a miracle ear piece.
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January 30, 2019 at 11:33 am
Not so. If you were actually “saved” then the very next mortal act of sin, no matter how small and insignificant to you would damn you forever Just as none are “saved” except Jesus yet, none are yet damned. That is by grace which is NOT “unmerited pardon” but simply a delay in judgment.
And, you’ve obviously been taught that the “gospel” means “good news”. That is a false teaching as well. The biblical meaning of “gospel” is that of a town criar running through the town and yelling “the King is coming so you better get ready”. Else the King will come and the town will not make ready without the warnig and the King will see the people unprepared and burn the town down, killing all the people. Consequently, Jesus went about preaching the “gospel” and saying “repent……THE KINGDOM IS AT HAND”.
And, your comments also indicate you have been taught the concept of immediate gratification for certain passages which goes hand in hand with the false teaching of isolationalistic elitism. for example….The passage “repent, be baptized and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost” has NO immediate gratification built into it. It is a predictive passage with an unspecifiedtime gap built into it. The purpose for such a false teaching is to motivate the people to “give” to the church to “spread the gospel” but in fact to make certain men rich. The “gospel” was preached 100% within 100 years of Jesus and to the entire world. To claim to do it now is to claim a dead work and to steal the people’s money.
In conjunction with all that, you’ve probably been taught that you’ve received the “Holy Ghost” and are now capable of “evolving” into some abstract form of salvation. Not true. You and I are the “rest of the dead”. Those in the first resurrection were men and women with whom God dealt with personally and intimately. People recorded in the pages of the Bible….Moses, Noah, David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, the apostles, Paul. NOT “us”. WE are not those “elect” who lie safely in the grave awaiting the return of Jesus. WE will lie in our grave awaiting the judgment.
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January 30, 2019 at 11:43 am
popoff was a despicable thief and a liar.
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January 30, 2019 at 1:49 pm
Kim, very well then … just when I thought I heard it all, this is yet another twist that I never heard before …. good grief !
To the judgment with all of us then …. what chance do we have ? There is no chance at all for salvation in your version … we are all TOAST at the judgment.
Where did you come up with this stuff ?
Naz
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January 30, 2019 at 1:57 pm
For all the nitpicking about being saved and salvation; what is wrong with you all? I don’t get it where you all come down niggling over a concept from where it came you don’t even know because none of you can can define sin…and therefore none of you can define salvation or saved from What?
Why do most people always talk about needing salvation? What does one need salvation from or salvation for; why and where did it all start if not within organized religion who alone defined sin and then proceeded to write the storybook to support the sin narrative, the Book of Genesis.
Alone I am just fine; with people around I suddenly have a multitude of sin; always had sin; I need to be saved from sin. What sin are they talking about? “Religion’s perceived sin!”. And then blame it on(attribute it) to God saying God defined sin, exempting the authors for the story they had written.
Presumptive sin drilled into brains by other people, everybody else. But I was doing just fine with the Father and so was Jesus, just like me in the silence of his own heart away from the pulpit bullies. But now, they imply one must “belong” to a religion and then to the outgrowth of religion, the denominational tangents; they need a piece of the economic religious pie and they want their share to spend as they desire.
Jesus belonged to no denomination; Jesus was free from that curse. Here’s what Jesus says about freedom and what he does not say: that you have to criticize other denominations. Are you kidding?
The Lord Jesus said, I’m free. I’m free. Because in the sinlessness of my humanity, In the silence of my own being, in my heart of heart, spirit of spirit, mind of mine, alone with the Father; I’ve entered into no contract, I have submitted myself to no obligation, I have indebted myself to nobody in such a way that I could not at all times do only exclusively what pleases him. That’s freedom.
You are free ladies and gentlemen when you have entered into no contract, indebted yourself to nobody, or any organization or denominational group, you’ve entered into no alliance that would make it at anytime impossible for you to do other than please him, then you’re free. Free. That’s perfect freedom. And you do not have to explain your freedom or defend your freedom which is what true freedom is.
And therefore salvation and being saved is meaningless. Yes resurrection, in other words, born again will renew your mind and settle you on the spiritual aspect instead of just the physical; but that’s all there is, while you are alive, yet most of you are walking dead if you don’t understand the message of Jesus. As he explained Nicodemus.
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January 30, 2019 at 2:09 pm
LTG ….. LMAO, Paul, James, Peter and all the NT writers didn’t teach anything not founded on Jesus’ teaching. it’s only so in your deluded mind because you give totally different meanings to Jesus’ own words saying “resurrection” doesn’t mean “resurrection” ……
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January 30, 2019 at 2:13 pm
LMAO …… the Church Jesus founded approved of and sent Paul to preach what he preached. but if you’re delusional I guess you can say “approved” means “disapproved” and “sent to” means “sent away.”
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January 30, 2019 at 2:35 pm
Does anybody have anything reasonable to counter Post 371?
Simply saying I disagree with you wholeheartedly like Naz but all Naz offers is a bunch of scriptures written by Paul that exonerate Paul. Php 6:3-10 all words by Paul for Paul from Paul and means nothing to anybody else except Paul. This may as well be Trump telling why he is smarter than the generals, the intel chiefs and whatever else he is the best at.
Anybody who disagrees ought to be able to give lucid reasons why but all that’s offered from Individual 1 is ad hominems because he doesn’t have any education or ability to reason with any substantive argument; logic is just another perceived jewel from a meaningless treasure in burlap, worse than merely useless.
Is there not anyone who understand the bible at all except from a supernatural superstitious mind of stoneage ancients who wrote the book they follow like sluts of protocol following the piper throwing fantasy gold medallions; or, from a future where everybody is asleep waiting for the return of somebody who died 2000 years ago who is going to resurrect them to a life of reward because he told them to love your enemy. Some reward and yet all they are capable of doing do is eye to eye and tooth for a tooth revenge like their ancient ancestors.
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January 30, 2019 at 8:50 pm
SAVED FROM WHAT?
SALVATION FROM WHAT?
LET ME CORRECT THE ERROR OF OVERSIGHT:
All human beings are born with the Spirit of God(Life Forces) within them. Babies are not born in sin just because the founding, imaginative-driven religious zealots decided sin entered the world through sex. Human babies are born guilt-free and pure. “…..From the mouths of babes your praise is assured…..” AND “….Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven…..”
It was the church founding zealot leaders who, with their heartfelt resentment against life, first made something unclean of sexuality: it threw filth on the origin, on the Essential fact of our life. And wrote the story of Genesis to support the narrative.
So we end up with the ridiculous statements like the following ludicrous scriptures denigrating women and the religious filth of sexual activity, the essential for life itself.
Job 15:14—“What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? (cf. Job 4:17)
Job 25:4—How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
Through these rhetorical questions, both righteousness and purity are understood to be impossible for one merely “born of a woman.”
So PLEASEl,,,,,,,,,,,,, Don’t use ridiculous, stupid interpretations, trying to revive your idea of inborn sin by sex stupidity.
Please grow up and get out of the fantasy adult Santa-God mode. Stop guilt tripping the world and the children about being failures because religion’s presumptive sexuality is original sin that forms the basis of religious psycho-imposed-agenda of fear, punishment and death, all human anxieties to be sure, but not because we are born failures.
Religion is the biggest failure that has ever cursed this world over the last ten thousand centuries. One has only to cast eyes upon and try to calculate the incalculable wealth of organized religious institutions around the world to understand the wealth of the vault that certifies their real agenda.
Nothing personal; lack of knowledge has been missing ever since Genesis but the fruit of the tree was supposed to give knowledge..but it didn’t.
All you are doing in your post is saying what Genesis says…Tell me about the tree, what kind of tree was it? What kind of fruit was on the tree, grapes and its intoxicating properties. Most fruit bearing trees have the same natural intoxicating effects; when they shed their fruit, it naturally ferments.
You and countless other Christians talk over and over and over again about the bones of the “tree, knowledge, good and evil and the fruit” but put some meat on dem bones and use your imagination like children have to do when you tell them fantasy stories about Santa Claus. If you repeat Genesis which answers none of the questions I asked; well, you may just as well recite Three Blind Mice for all the good repeating words that have no meaning do.
Repeating the literal words of Genesis does nothing, solves nothing and adds nothing to the conversation without ideas about meanings. Is the spider weaving a web, catching the fly and sucking the fly’s life from the inside out evil? Is the spider good and the fly evil; is the lion better than the animals they eat?
Why do most people always talk about needing salvation? What does one need salvation from or salvation for; why and where did it all start if not within organized religion who alone defined sin and then proceeded to write the storybook to support the sin narrative, the Book of Genesis. Of cpoirse sexual activity as the original sin was a great marketing con so that nobody on earth was exempt from the paying for pardons, buying indulgences etc from the money making 666 Beast created by Religion for pence and power.
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January 30, 2019 at 9:22 pm
Naz:
I would be negligent not to follow up with you to note that you have failed to respond to the real story of Jonah as it pertains to the only sign given by Jesus to a perverse and wicked generation which is the same today as it was 20 centuries ago. I can’t let you off the hook that easy. Unable to understand and therefore unable to progress in knowledge…but ahhhh tons of belief, tons of nonsense belief.
Do you really think Jesus was as stupid as his followers, too attached by superstition as you and other Christians are, not to know figure out the adult santa clauses who created the Genesis narrative, the truth about the traditional “fishy”Jonah story, the truth about the deceitful religious leaders, the truth about resurrection from the place of the dead, water to wine miracles)all wine is made with water; I know that’s a hard thing to grasp) miracles that don’t exist outside of dupery on weak minded followers. Poof poof, here is bread and fish out of thin air, fill the baskets, fill the stomachs. Did you ever wonder why there were basketful of leftovers from those feedings.
Matt14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
What why would a miracle make 12 baskets more than needed? These are questions the curious might ask instead of blindly ignoring such. Oh well even Paul needs a good LMAO expression. hahaha
You guys don’t give Jesus much credit but you sure can TITLE and CROWN him with the “God in the Flesh” nonsense to fit your supernatural superstitious MODEL? You and Paul are cut from the same cloth; Kim is still struggling to interpret the bible and all the resurrection silliness into the only model she is capable of using since the bible is so bizarre she creates a model as bizarre and why not?
If there is salvation it is to save y’all from ignorance and gullibility because the truth is that only knowledge will set you free, belief never can and that is the truth Jesus said would set you free, not belief, the truth of knowledge.
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January 31, 2019 at 6:29 am
Leo, Jonah was one of many types and shadows of Christ in the old testament. Just like Issac and Joseph and their stories. The whole point is to point to Christ and His death and resurrection.
Jonah is not a childrens’s tale.
Naz
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January 31, 2019 at 7:22 am
Naz:
You’re making things up alluding to shadows of Christ. You know very well that Jesus did not allude to Jonah about a shadow of himself. He clearly used Jonah that sign of Jonah was that Jonah did not die from his ordeal but survived the ordeal and rose from the place of the dead…ALIVE.
That was the reference Jesus was making.
When you speak about shadows of Jesus what you are talking about is how religious leaders use scriptures anywhere they can so as to try and connect all scriptures as some huge network of commonality all pointing to Jesus but the Pharisees religious leaders who executed Jesus did not see it that way.
Why? Because Jesus wanted to revolutionize religion for the farce it was and the farce it remains.
It is only post crucifixion religious leaders who want to continue the ruse and keep people in the dark as much as possible so they continue passing the collection plate and sell their religious wares for financial security and if you can’t see that, you’re not really looking.
The whole enchilada was a ruse from start to finish….a mere transitional upgrade from the mythological Gods that were losing their appeal as people gained knowledge, became more educated and the superstitious model was being more and more recognized for the stupidstition it was. And the leaders so launched a new 2.9 scam to hoodwink the masses and lo and behold if they didn’t land on a project to market a Facebook to put the world into a whirlwind tailspin guilt trip whereby sex became the modus operandi original sin from which no person on earth could escape and no newborns could escape either.
Whatever happened to your common sense curiosity? to question what happened in the Book of Genesis between: Genesis 2:25 “d they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”..and….Genesis 3:7 “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;””AND HID MYSELF” in shame.
What happened between the 6 verses was the rise of the clergy who introduced their Sex Scam that all sexual activity, ALL, was sin, without Clergy approval; even the marriage that was as Jesus said “Matt 19:5 “…. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?….” The Clergy stopped that nonsense and it became sin. Clerics eliminated the natural attraction of sexual contact as the consummating factor that became marriage by natural consent.
Can’t you see that the subtle snake was the religious clergy and that was when the change of the “…marriage in the beginning…” and the new marriage controlled fully by religion took over. None of this clinging to the wife stuff, in the New Scam.
OMG even in today’s modern society movies and theatrical performances have to warn the public if sexual activity is part of the performance. The filth of sexual activity has been the curse The Book of Genesis has burdened the whole world with ever since.
The common denominator that shames the soul, crucifies the body and purges the mind is sex; sex the cause and sex the effect: the cause of its own effect and that sexual process is the only means that makes every human being subject to its laws, birth, very life itself.Sexual procreation.
In other words, by using a variation of sexuality, nakedness the sin(of sexuality) and nakedness the cover up(the natural guilt of exposure) Not that nakedness is the sin but the connotation of nakedness portends, sexuality. And sexuality was always the original sin by which made no human being unique; and not only was it the original sin, but the narrative of the original sin was actually designed as the imperative dictation describing sin: the very first Book of the Bible that describes original sin and from which no person on earth can escape. The Book of Genesis.
This brought the entire population under the wing of the messenger of the paranormal, mythological caricature God and thereby nobody ever born could escape the fact that original sin was in fact a sexual sin and all people ever born were guilty as a result of that sin. In this way all humanity came under the jurisdiction of religion and the self appointed God-derived founders who created the farce that sin of sex was responsible for very life itself.
IT’S NOT THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT.
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January 31, 2019 at 8:13 am
Leo, I think Paul V is right …. have you lost your mind ? Are you hearing voices dude ?
You’re like a raving lunatic, there is no reasoning with you. You have concocted your own mythology about Jesus and the entirety of the bible itself.
All of this because of some religious Charletons, because of the Peter Popoffs and Benny Hinn’s of this world. Look, I know those guys are imposters it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
You don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. That’s what you’ve done in your rejection of religion. Rejecting religion does not mean you need to reject God Himself. There is a difference. If you can ever see that, you may someday return to the faith you had as a little child.
C’mon man !
Naz
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January 31, 2019 at 8:23 am
that’s one of the biggest lies told by nearly every “church” organization today. Jesus never founded a church. When he said “I will build my church” he was referring to his return in which an elect few from those with whom God or him personally interacted with in the Bible (not millions of “Christians”) would meet him in the air from the grave and it was they who would no longer be affected by death. He did NOT build a human organization through Peter that would not die out. Jesus was being prophetic about his return and about the first resurrection. He was NOT “founding a church”. All church organizations today are FAKES. Including the Catholic church. And, to get around the obvious fact that multiple religions exist, teaching all manner of “doctrines” that conflict, church organizations teach there is some sort of “abstract” group that transcends all the differing religions which is the ” real church” Jesus founded. Again…a LIE. And there are of course those religious organizations that claim to be the “true” church Jesus founded. Again, a LIE.
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January 31, 2019 at 8:28 am
Sin is the transgression of the law. The consequence of sin is death. Salvation is being saved from death. Not death of the grave but death at judgment from which there is no resurrection. ie/saved from oblivion. Not from some kind of perpetual torment. Dead is dead until the resurrection but after that, dead is dead forever. non-existence.
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January 31, 2019 at 8:44 am
That’s exactly the question the apostles asked and a very good question………we can’t save ourselves but God can. Trust in God and the faithfulness of the sacrifice of His Son. He didn’t sacrifice His Son for no reason. A Son whose single eternal life was of greater value than the sum total of billions of mortal men’s lives.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
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January 31, 2019 at 10:00 am
Kim, I’m still a little confused. So only an elect few, David, Moses etc… will be saved ? And the rest of us have no chance ?
If you are not part of the first resurrection then you experience the second death according to your favorite “rest of the dead” scripture. So if I reason this out logically, you are saying everyone who ever lived will experience the second death which is extermination except for David and the “heros” of faith.
Do I understand you correctly ?
Naz
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January 31, 2019 at 11:23 am
LTG ………. LMAO, we have to respond to your ramblings but yet you refuse to outline your reasons why Jesus didn’t die on the cross. dude, your only argument is delusional — the NT writings say Jesus was alive after the crucifixion, the resurrection is impossible, therefore Jesus didn’t die during the crucifixion. that you can’t see the major hole in that argument and call me a “dolt” is hilarious.
not me oh delusional one, scientific analysis of the NT writings prove Jesus died, really really died. and what’s your response to the scientific evidence —- no it’s wrong because I say dead doesn’t mean dead. your scenario has been scientifically proven to be false, yet with the conviction of a religious nut job you dismiss all of this evidence and believe in your delusion. plus you don’t even admit to the problems and your lack of explanation for said problems. based on your world view Jesus dying and the NT writings being fictionalized is not only possible but more likely then your scenario —- but you won’t even acknowledge that.
now briefly to your rambling —- you ask, saved from what ? saved from death.
that’s the whole point of the bible. so you know this is it, there’s no life after death/no resurrection where we get a new body (ie. metamorphosis). congratulations we’ll both be worm food.
now why will life be better for humanity if everybody believed that ? in my case it would be worse, my faith has not only made me happier in this life it’s made me more compassionate to my neighbour and even enemy. that’s what you want isn’t it ? now if you had evidence the supernatural did not exist it’s foolish of me to engage in sacrificial love of my neighbour and especially my enemy and I’d go back to the way I lived before my conversion — self centered.
so like the delusional fool you are your life’s work is counterproductive. your mission should be to argue the problems, and there are many, with organized religion. that’s because you have zero critical thinking skills as evident from your poor argument in defense of your version of the centuries old “swoon theory” and turning a blind eye to all of the problems with your world view.
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January 31, 2019 at 1:52 pm
Paul, hold on to you hat my friend … your about to get a good old fashioned tongue lashing from the incorrigible LTG … this should be good …
Naz
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January 31, 2019 at 1:54 pm
Not quite….those in the first resurrection have been judged while living by being personally contacted by God and/or Jesus. For example….Moses actually talked to God on a regular basis and on the mountain, he even saw the back of God for just a brief instant. And that was God as non-glowy (to phrase a Buffy the Vampire idiom) as He could be while around Moses. Anyway, these special people whom God chose to personally work with in some manner will rise at the return of Jesus and reign with him to prepare the world for the coming day of judgment for the “rest of the dead”. These “elect”, once risen are transformed into the glory of the Kingdom of God and are thus “saved” in that day. But “WE” (ie/ the “rest of the dead”) remain in our graves until the day of judgment and in that day, we as individuals will either be accounted among the righteous, take the Son of God’s sacrifice and be transformed into the Kingdom of God or face the ultimate death which is extinction with no return. WE have the same hope of salvation as Moses, et al but Moses et al will not precede “us”. So, the concept of “once saved always saved” is applicable. But, the idea that anyone has been “saved” or “born again” yet is a doctrinal lie. Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the grave. Everyone else, include Moses are yet to follow Jesus into eternity.
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January 31, 2019 at 2:03 pm
KIm the problem with sin being the transgression of the Law means that the Law was penned (chiseled) by man and every Law is a man made Law. Do you imagine that any life form created b y the wisdom of the Cosmic God wood need to have a bunch of Laws so they would know how to behave…NO,
It was man who decided how others should live; that’s where Laws come from.
I mean if that’s all it was; just a belief, But religion is more than just a belief, religion wants to impose a universal morality which is why it has always attracted the kind of person who thinks other people’s private lives are their business. And giving respect to this mentality is exactly what’s got us into the mess that we’re in.
We’ve given religion ideas that are above its station and we persuaded it that it’s something it’s not. When the truth is that faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. It’s an act of will. It’s not a state of grace; it’s a state of choice. Because without evidence, you’ve got no reason to believe apart from your willingness to believe.
So why is that worthy of respect anymore than your willingness to poke yourself in the eye with a pencil? And why is faith considered some kind of virtue, is it because it implies a certain depth of contemplation and insight? I don’t think so.
Faith by definition is unexamined, so in that sense it has to be among the shallowest of experiences and yet if it could it would regulate every action, every word and thought of every single person on this planet because, let’s not forget, even an impure thought is a sin.
Well, I think that belief in god? It pollutes our understanding of reality. It gets in the way. And it brings out the worse in the best of us so that we’re even prepared to stoop so low as to poison the unformed mind of the people we love the most, our children. By the time they’re old enough to think for themselves, it’s too late. They’ve been well and truly, hypnotized. If you fill your child’s mind with images of satan and the horrors of hellfire, you’re a sick individual and you are mentally ill. And the only reason you don’t know this is because you’ve been indulged for far too long by people and institutions that really ought to know better.
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January 31, 2019 at 2:21 pm
The God Gravity will return to raise you up from the dead because God Gravity loves homo sapiens. And now about G od Electro to spark your heart beating again, if it didn’t