Check out my latest article, “How divine appearances and the angel of YHWH can illuminate the meaning of ‘the form of God’ and shed light on Jesus’ prayers.”
My conclusion sums it up best:
The human-like appearances of YHWH in the OT, including His appearances as the angel of YHWH, help us understand what Paul meant when he said Jesus existed “in the form of God” prior to the incarnation. He was identifying Jesus as the YHWH’s visible image in the OT, similar to Jude’s identification of Jesus as the angel of YHWH who led the Israelites in the wilderness.
These divine appearances also provide an analogue to the Father-Son communication in the NT. We see a distinction between YHWH’s invisible and visible modes of existence, and yet YHWH visible is still identified as the one and only YHWH. YHWH was active in both His invisible and visible modes simultaneously. Invisible YHWH could even communicate with visible YHWH, illustrating the possibility of communication between two modes of YHWH’s existence.
This phenomena is similar to what we see in the NT. Invisible YHWH (Father) communicated with visible YHWH (Son) and vice versa, even though the Father and Son are both YHWH. In the same way we would not say YHWH was talking to Himself in the OT, we should not think YHWH was talking to Himself in the NT. Jesus’ prayers, and the Father-Son communication generally, is due to God’s assumption of a human nature in the incarnation. When God became a man, He assumed a human nature, allowing Him to be a human being and function as a human being, including a genuine human psychology. In Jesus, YHWH is conscious of Himself as a human being. He has the mental life of a human being. In such a state, communication with the Father is not only possible, but expected.
Thinking to Believe 
November 1, 2021 at 10:10 pm
From the full article:
“Since the kind of mind one has is determined by their nature, and God has two distinct natures, it follows that God has two distinct minds: one divine, one human. He has a divine mind in virtue of His divine nature, and a human mind in virtue of His human nature.”
The only problem with this is that natures do not have minds; persons do.
Your explanation effectively renders Jesus schizophrenic which is unacceptable. Jesus, the God-man, did not have one divine mind and one human mind within His one person. He had one divine-human mind because He was one divine-human person. There was only one center of consciousness within the person of Jesus, and it was a consciousness that was fully divine and fully human simultaneously.
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November 2, 2021 at 9:07 pm
You are right that natures do not have minds. I don’t claim they do. I’m saying that a nature determines the kind of mind one has; i.e. how it functions. The fact that God has two natures allows for His mind to function in two distinct ways.
I don’t claim that these two minds are within Jesus. Exactly the opposite. God exists in two distinct modes as Father and Son. The Father exhibits the divine mind via His divine nature. The Son exhibits the human mind via His human nature.
I agree that there was only one center of consciousness in Jesus, which is God Himself. But in Jesus, God was conscious of Himself as man via His human nature.
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November 3, 2021 at 11:52 am
But God only has two natures within the one person of Christ. Christ the Son is one person who possesses both a divine AND a human nature, and if nature determines mind, then the one person of the Son possesses one mind that is both divine and human, not solely human. God existing in two “modes” (I’m loathe to use a term that provides critics with ammunition) of Father and Son is not the same thing as the Son possessing two natures of divinity and humanity.
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November 5, 2021 at 7:37 am
I think you are both correct or maybe saying the same thing in two different ways. I find this topic fascinating and I don’t really think anyone will be able to adequately explain it, no offence intended.
What gets really interesting is when Jesus prays to the Father …. now that’s a theological mystery because natures don’t pray, people do.
Enjoying the discourse. Thanks.
Naz
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November 18, 2021 at 6:21 pm
the 2 main things are — Yachid vs. Echad and Jesus existing as a Person prior to the Incarnation. when you take these 2 things into consideration and interpret scripture accordingly — it’s very clear to me …… God=Three Divine Persons in Unity. and all that happened in the Incarnation is One of the Divine Persons of the Godhead united to His “human nature”/dwelt in a Tabernacle of flesh. many, especially rc, argue this is possession/adoption but you can’t possess or adopt yourself. and they are misinterpreting what we are saying. many also, b/c they take the Shema as meaning yachid totally reject Jesus as Divine because they don’t consider the 2 natures and verses like Jesus praying to the Father.
so b/c Jesus has “2 natures united w/o confusion” — The Person with a Divine nature can’t die but His flesh and blood body can die. if the Person Jesus could die He’s not fully God and if His body couldn’t die He’s not fully man. then the other stuff falls into place —- Jesus praying to the Father is One Divine Person with 2 natures talking to another Divine Person with only a Divine nature. and when the bible tells us Jesus got hungry, tired or something else God won’t so it’s just talking about His “human nature.”
if you believe Jesus was a Person prior to the Incarnation make 3 columns.
Column A contains things about Him before the Incarnation and column B contains things about Him after the Incarnation. Now strike out everything in columns A & B that are the same and that’s column C — His “human nature.”
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November 22, 2021 at 12:37 pm
it’s not just that “Jesus prays to the Father,” it’s that Jesus says the Father is in heaven.
this solution to a problem which people with my worldview don’t have is interesting but it doesn’t solve his problem —– b/c why would Jesus say the Father is in “heaven” if Jesus is the Father and He is on earth ?
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November 24, 2021 at 6:30 pm
Paul Vander, you say “if the Person Jesus could die He’s not fully God and if His body couldn’t die He’s not fully man.”
Well Jesus the Person actually DID die. We don’t say a person’s body died; we say that persons die. The scriptures frequently say that souls die, and souls constitute both the material and immaterial parts of man (and animals).
The fact of the matter is that because Jesus is the God-man, we must say that within the Person of Jesus, God indeed experienced death. As a matter of fact, in the Person of Jesus, God experienced a reality that is otherwise contradictory to His divine nature as the Kenosis passage of Philippians 2 informs us.
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November 24, 2021 at 6:34 pm
And yes, Jesus identifies the Father as being in heaven but He also locates the Father within Himself and does so more frequently than locating Him in heaven. This is especially true in John’s Gospel.
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November 25, 2021 at 2:12 pm
Jesus the Person can not die if He is God …… because by definition God can’t die. what happened was a fully aware Divine Person was trapped in His dead tabernacle of flesh. only His “human nature” could die …… His lungs stopped breathing and His heart stopped pumping.
you are not correct ….. Jesus is not saying the Father is in Him like the Holy Spirit is in the ekklesia. Jesus is stating clearly what the OT & NT state ….. Jesus is One with the Father in unity.
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November 26, 2021 at 5:40 am
But Jesus the Person DID die, and Jesus was very much God but also very much man. This is why 1 Timothy 3:16 proclaims “And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” Acts 20:28 states “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” To purchase something with one’s own blood is metaphorical for giving one’s life, or literally dying, in exchange for that thing. In the Person of Jesus Christ, God had human experiences (e.g., shedding His blood until the point of death) via His human nature which co-existed, but was not co-mingled, with His divine nature. So Jesus, the Son of God, the God-man, actually experienced a very real death according to His humanity but not according to His divinity since His flesh was not divine, nor did His divine essence, in which the Father also partakes, cease to be. After entrusting His human/divine Spirit to the care of the Father (“Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit”), Jesus’ physical body was rendered lifeless for three days until the Holy Spirit actuated His resurrection from the dead.
To say that “a fully aware Divine Person was trapped in [Jesus’] dead tabernacle of flesh” upon Jesus’ death not only separates Jesus’ human and divine natures, but also asserts the existence of both a divine person and a human person within the incarnate Christ. This is tantamount to the fallacy of Nestorianism with gnostic undertones. Furthermore, how can a divine person be “trapped in a dead tabernacle of flesh”? That’s not even true of humans upon death, according to either popular position on the intermediate state (i.e., a conscience immaterial existence or a state of total unconsciousness until the resurrection of the body). I’m baffled as to how you can deny that Christ died, meaning the person of Christ died when that is a bedrock belief of the Christian church. “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death” (Revelation 1:17-18). Natures do not speak, but persons do and here the Person of Christ clearly states that He was dead but is now alive forevermore. I Peter 3:18 gives us further insight: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.” I believe this to be a much more clear and accurate way to describe the death of Christ than saying only His “human nature died.” Humanity or human nature is not an exclusive property of the material (body) aspect of man, but is also inclusive of the immaterial (spirit) aspect of man in both a state of separation (death) and unification (life). Thus Jesus was put to death, or died, according to the flesh, which is a reference to His physical body in its lifeless state after the departure of His Spirit (which was at once both human and divine) into the hands of the Father.
“you are not correct ….. Jesus is not saying the Father is in Him like the Holy Spirit is in the ekklesia. Jesus is stating clearly what the OT & NT state ….. Jesus is One with the Father in unity.”
Jesus says that He is one with the Father AND that the Father is in Him. And while Jesus certainly locates the Father in heaven “geographically,” He also locates the Father within Himself “geographically” as well and within the same discourse at that:
“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.” (John 14:10-12)
It is clear that Jesus means that the Father is within Himself in an immediate “geographical” sense because He attributes His earthly works to that of the indwelling Father. Then in the very next breath He states that his disciples will (collectively) accomplish greater works because He goes to His Father–which is clearly a reference to His future post-resurrection ascension back to heaven after which He sends the Holy Spirit to empower His followers on earth.
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November 26, 2021 at 10:18 am
your comments prove you are ignorant of the Incarnation and or what the bible means by death.
first you need to understand what “united without confusion” means, then you have to ask yourself this question …….. does Jesus have “2 natures united without confusion as the vast majority of bible believing Christians believe ?” if you answer Yes only our interpretation makes any sense. if you believe Jesus’ Divinity or His humanity are not fully God or fully man that’s heresy.
wrong again, because if that’s what Jesus means the tons of biblical evidence that says He isn’t would make the OT and NT worthless and make Jesus look crazy.
all that happened and could happen on Nisan 14 is His “human nature” died. The Divine Person remained united to His dead body fully aware until He got His glorified body. if as you say Jesus the Person died He is not and can not be God — The Father, Son or Holy Spirit. sorry but the bible is clear —- Jesus sustains all of creation ……. if He would’ve died this ALL would cease to exist.
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November 26, 2021 at 10:26 am
the only way to get around your problem is ……. Jesus didn’t exist as a Person before the Incarnation or Jesus existed as a spirit being like the Archangel Michael before the Incarnation. but then you still have to ignore the tons of evidence showing Jesus is Divine and He accepts worship. and based on what he said if He’s not The Son, Second Person of the Godhead …….. he is fictional or nutty as a fruit cake.
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November 26, 2021 at 1:41 pm
Paul Vander Voort, Revelation 1:8 states “I [Jesus] am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.” According to you, this isn’t the Person of Jesus Christ speaking here but merely His human nature since you say that Jesus Himself didn’t die but just His human nature. This is highly nonsensical and illogical for obvious reasons. In the Incarnation, two natures–humanity and divinity, distinct yet united and not comingled–existed within the one Person of Jesus Christ. Persons have experiences, not natures. Again, 1 Peter 3:18 (NET) states it accurately and succinctly: “…Christ also suffered once for sins…by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.” The Person of Christ was put to death IN THE FLESH, but death did not annihilate Christ’s divinity. When the Person of Jesus Christ experienced death, His spirit left His human body which John 19:30 (NASB) clearly says: “Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, ‘It is finished!’ And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.” There is no scripture that says that something divine was left behind within Christ’s dead human body that was fighting to get out but couldn’t. Such a notion is flatly unbiblical.
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November 28, 2021 at 10:16 am
lol ……….. that’s hilarious b/c i said no such thing nor could my comments be interpreted as such.
Jesus the Person couldn’t die if He is “fully God” PERIOD. if the Person Jesus died he wasn’t Divine b/c by definition God can’t die.
He couldn’t fight to get out b/c of the “union” of His 2 natures. Once united they could not be separated. so just like Jonah, Jesus was trapped in His dead body until He got His glorified one.
again you prove your lack of knowledge ………. by refusing to admit 1 doesn’t always=one you are making error after error to defend your error. since we correctly profess it’s One as in unity we can accept the straightforward literal verse like Jesus saying the Father is in heaven while He is on earth. that’s clearly 2 Persons in 2 different locations. but your problem doesn’t end there —- “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” that has to be 2 Persons, actually, some poor people that think like you, incorrectly use that as evidence Jesus (ie.”my Lord”) is not God/Divine (ie.”The LORD”). that’s b/c “LORD”=God and they refuse to admit Lord can also be a title of God.
satan tried to tempt Jesus to use His power b/c if He did He couldn’t have carried out His mission ……. b/c only some one fully man could repair the error another fully man (ie. Adam) committed. so just like us Jesus had to rely on the Father to perform the miracles He performed until His mission was accomplished and He got His glorified body.
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November 29, 2021 at 7:32 am
lol ……….. persons have experiences AND natures.
again you cling to what supports your erroneous position and ignore what destroys it. can God die ? ALL sane people know the answer is no. that’s because by definition God can’t die.
so if Jesus is “fully God” you have to interpret what He said based on the fact God can’t die. therefore, that’s exactly what Jesus means when He says He died.
now if you argued because of other biblical evidence, Jesus the Person didn’t die but He experienced what we would when we die no problem from me. that’s b/c of what we explain to those that reject Jesus’ Divinity due to some biblical evidence that shows Jesus is not Omniscient. that evidence just means — after the Incarnation and before Jesus got His glorified body He could only consciously be aware of what He was allowed to be aware of. a situation He knowingly volunteered for.
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