Currently, I am in the midst of my podcast series on the moral argument for God’s existence. This reminded me of an article that the famed atheist and philosopher of science, Michael Ruse, wrote in The Guardian back in 2010 as a response to the question, What can Darwin teach us about morality? Ruse’s multifaceted answer is intriguing, and at times, incoherent, but also quite enlightening about where atheistic and evolutionary thought leads.
Ruse admits that without God “there are no grounds whatsoever for being good.” Morality, he says, is just a matter of emotion and personal taste on the same level as “liking ice cream and sex and hating toothache and marking student papers.” But he’s quick to point out that just because there are no grounds for being good, it doesn’t mean we should be bad. While this is true insofar as it goes, it fails to answer the more important question: Why – in the absence of a moral law giver, and thus in the absence of any objective moral law – should anyone behave in ways traditionally thought to be “good” if and when it is in their own self-interest to do otherwise? In the name of what should they deny their own impulses? In the name of the Grand Sez Who?
This question is all the more pertinent since – on Ruse’s view – we are biologically hardwired by our evolutionary history to think and feel as we do. Human thoughts and feelings are a mixed bag. While some of us feel the need to treat people fairly and be kind to everyone, others feel it is acceptable to subjugate and rape women or kill those who stand in their way. Evolution is equally responsible for hardwiring both kinds of emotions and preferences. So why should people act on one set of preferences and emotions but not the other if they are both hardwired into us by evolution? There is no basis in evolutionary theory for saying one set of emotions and desires is wrong, while the other is right. Indeed, given Darwinism, whatever helps one survive and pass on their genes is “good” (and whatever hinders one from surviving and passing on their genes is “bad”). Since natural selection has preserved all of these emotions and desires in the human species, all of them must contribute in some way to our survivability, and thus all of them must be “good.” And if they are good, why should we not act on these emotions and desires? Drawing from an evolutionary framework, there is no reason not to.
Like so many atheists who deny the existence of objective moral values, Ruse is quite certain that behaviors such as treating women and gays as inferiors and exploiting the earth are wrong. Sez Who? If there are no moral absolutes, then all moral claims are reduced to personal preferences, including Ruse’s. There is no moral quality to any behavior. Everything is just matter in motion. There is no objective difference between subjugating women and treating them as equal. One approach is simply different than the other, not better. Ruse’s claim that it is wrong to treat gays and women as inferior is just a preference claim, no different than saying “I don’t like spinach.” If morality is just an illusion, then Ruse’s moral judgment that treating women and gays as inferiors is wrong is also an illusion. And if it’s just an illusion, why should anyone care? He’s got his preference, and I’ve got mine. Who’s to say whose is better? Surely Ruse doesn’t see it that way. He thinks it’s actually wrong to treat women and gays as inferiors, which is why he feels the liberty to judge those who see it otherwise. The fact of the matter is that Ruse doesn’t really believe what he’s saying. He contradicts himself. With one stroke of the pen he says moral values are illusory, while in the next he speaks as if his moral judgments are true. He can’t have it both ways.
Where Ruse really shows the bankruptcy of an atheistic, evolutionary account of morality is when he says morality is “a funny kind of emotion” because “it has to pretend that it is not” just an emotion at all, for “if we thought that morality was no more than liking or not liking spinach, then pretty quickly it would break down.” In other words, while morality is illusory, to lead good lives we have to be deceived into thinking moral values are objective: “It has to appear [to us] to be objective, even though it is really subjective.” Indeed, he thinks most people are deceived into thinking their moral sense is derived from some objective source rather than some illusion hardwired into us by evolution. One might wonder, though, how it is that those like Ruse have succeeded in overcoming their evolutionary programming to see morality for what it really is. If the illusion is so strong that it has deceived billions of people for countless ages, how has Ruse been able to see past the illusion to get to reality? The more important point to be made, however, is that an evolutionary account of morality has to deny morality to explain it. We should be deeply suspicious of any worldview that requires us to deny our universal experience and deepest intuitions. The purpose of a worldview is to consistently explain our experience in the world, not deny it.
We might also wonder why, if Ruse recognizes that the illusion of objective morality is what causes most people to behave morally, he would want to convince people that morality is just a “funny kind of emotion;” an “illusion” fostered on us by evolution to make us “social cooperators” to help our species survive? Wouldn’t knowledge of this illusion cause people to act badly, thereby hindering the survival of our species? Ruse’s answer is telling: “[N]othing in an objective sense. But you are still a human with your gene-based psychology working flat out to make you think you should be moral. … It doesn’t matter how much philosophical reflection can show that your beliefs and behaviour have no rational foundation, your psychology will make sure you go on living in a normal, happy manner.” He’s right to say nothing can prevent people from acting badly, but obviously wrong to think human psychology will ultimately cause us to continue behaving in a manner deemed “good.” People tend to adjust their behavior and thinking to fit reality, not illusions. For example, before we learned that the puddle in the road was just a mirage, we decelerated our vehicles to avoid hydroplaning. Once we came to recognize that it was just an illusion, however, we kept our foot on the gas pedal. Similarly, if the masses come to believe morality is just an illusion, they will adjust their behavior to fit their desires rather than the illusion.
The conclusion to Ruse’s article is as intriguing as it is contradictory. He writes, “God is dead. Morality has no foundation. Long live morality. Thank goodness!” If there is no morality, then there is no goodness to be thankful for. It is just an illusion. Ultimately, then, we find in Ruse a man who is at once both happy to deny the existence of morality and yet happy to see it persist. Surely this is the mark of a confused man. What drives this confusion is the inherent conflict between what Ruse knows to be true by experience, and what he is forced to claim in virtue of his worldview. When the two are in conflict, confusion and cognitive dissonance will result. The solution is to find a worldview that fits our experience rather than denying it. Theism, not atheism or Darwinism, matches our experience. Only theism can provide the transcendental grounding necessary for objective moral values, moral duties, and moral accountability. So if Ruse truly wants morality to live long, he should become a theist.
January 29, 2024 at 11:53 pm
Oh geez…
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January 30, 2024 at 5:50 am
Excellent analysis of Michael Ruse’s view on Morality. I have watched many of his debates, interviews and videos, and man, is he confused and arrogant. I briefly interviewed him once and I am convinced that he knows what he is doing. Like many atheist, he wants have his cake and eat it too. Sad that so many play such intellectual games protect their rebellion against divine truth.
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January 30, 2024 at 9:43 pm
Greg, why even bother commenting if that’s all you are going to say? No rebuttal. No objection. No correction. No counter-argument. No insight. Just an expression of negative emotion. Pointless.
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February 2, 2024 at 8:36 am
Ah, I didn’t read this until after my previous post, but since the information directly relates, here’s the part relevant to this post:
There is a strong evolutionary basis for morality. Social species can cooperate and specialize, which gives them an advantage over solitary species. However, to be social requires codes of conduct to interact safely and effectively…which is why even piranha know not to attack one another. Thus, genes for behaviors that improve social cohesion and cooperation become selected for in nature. Since human beings are among the most social of social species, we have evolved a capacity for complex moral behavior…although how that manifests itself can vary substantially among different societies.
“Theism, not atheism or Darwinism, matches our experience. Only theism can provide the transcendental grounding necessary for objective moral values, moral duties, and moral accountability. So if Ruse truly wants morality to live long, he should become a theist.”
I certainly don’t agree with everything Ruse says, but the human experience is clearly more grounded in evolution than in theism. After all, if theism is true, we would expect to see a universal morality followed by all societies AND by the god or gods that decree that morality. It wouldn’t make much sense for a god to dictate his universal morality to only one society and expect the whole world to embrace it–especially if he was all knowing and knew that would never happen. (Also, why would that god largely copy much of the morality from a non-Christian society that existed hundreds of years earlier, like the Code of Hammurabi?)
Instead, what we see is consistent morality only about the behaviors that are critical for the function of society–like rules against murder, theft, rape, etc.–because those societies that failed to regulate them soon fall apart. Meanwhile other behaviors vary quite a bit by society. For instance, some societies have long embraced LGBTQ+ individuals, multiple spouses in a marriage, premarital sex, equality among religions, equal rights for women and minorities, etc., whereas other religions have long regarded those behaviors as immoral. Those behaviors and positions are not critical for the survival of a society, and have no impact or even have a positive impact on societies.
Furthermore, the God of the Bible commits or condones behaviors that nearly all societies consider evil, such as murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, forced incest, cannibalism, betrayal and lying to be immoral. While most Christians today are quick to accept such behavior from their God, they almost universally agree that that behavior is evil–indicating that their morality has evolved over time. That’s not indicative of an “objective” morality.
Morality MUST be changeable based on increased understanding and compassion over time, or we’d still be stuck with considering slavery, stoning children to death, child rape, killing homosexuals, etc. morally acceptable. We’re better than that, and in the future we will hopefully be better still.
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December 12, 2024 at 5:06 am
derekmathias
There is a strong evolutionary basis for morality.
There is ZERO evolutionary moral basis for morality – you are just cherry-picking the evolutionary set of behaviors that coincide with our established morality.
Why is it good or preferable that humans flourish? From a totally materialist/naturalistic point of view, flourishing is just as natural as decline.
What secular humanists are really doing is to take this very small extract of the natural world that coincides with our stablished moral values (the flourishing and developing of a given species) and pretending to have found objective morality in nature – when in fact, nature is not biased towards flourishing and developing – those are just as natural as extinction or rape and infanticide among many species.
The most horrible human behaviors are just as naturally selected as empathy an cooperation – and, if you say “ok, but the horrible behaviors do not promote flourishing” – well, then you would be obviously moving the goalpost, because your initial argument is that we can find morality in nature alone based on evolution – so, you don’t get to dismiss the things you don’t like in our evolutionarily selected behaviors.
You have no escape here: either ANY behavior is morally correct, because it was evolutionarily selected, or at the very least it was not evolutionarily eliminated – or, you have to sneak in your preference for flourishing – a preference that is certainly nonexistent in a nature composed merely of matter – in order to selected which behaviors are moral.
Furthermore, when do you think there was more moral evolution: in the 5 million years from the appearance of the first human ancestors, or in the 10000 years of human civilization? If evolution had any relevance in morality, the majority of our moral development should have happened during the former, not the latter.
The question is really simple: imagine there was absolutely ZERO societal, religious and legal ethics or morality, and you have to find it purely in nature: there is nothing in nature alone that would drive you to pick flourishing and cooperation over all the other horrible things.
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January 5, 2025 at 5:04 am
“There is ZERO evolutionary moral basis for morality – you are just cherry-picking the evolutionary set of behaviors that coincide with our established morality.”
Sorry, but that’s just not true. Despite certain advantages to being selfish, EVERY social species demonstrates some form of morality (even if it’s just don’t attack your own offspring). We find numerous species—from elephants to chimpanzees to rats and more—that exhibit high levels of moral behavior, like fairness and compassion. Social species generally have increased survival odds over solitary species (for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post), and any genes that confer a reproductive advantage to a species increase the likelihood of those genes spreading throughout the population. That’s how evolution works and that is an evolutionary basis for morality.
“Why is it good or preferable that humans flourish? From a totally materialist/naturalistic point of view, flourishing is just as natural as decline.”
Ah, but it ISN’T preferable that humans or even that life flourish…except for the fact that WE value flourishing. Any species that lacks that drive to survive and reproduce (i.e., the attempt to “flourish,” you could say) will go extinct, thereby guaranteeing that the species that DO flourish have a drive to do so. The universe doesn’t care about whether we thrive or go extinct, but we are the result of billions of years of breeding for survival, so the drive to flourish is instinctual, inherent to who we are.
So to even make the claim that decline is as natural to a naturalistic viewpoint as flourishing is like saying that if food is purely materialistic, eating food that tastes awful should be just as fine to us as eating food that tastes great. No, that ignores our evolutionary origins for certain taste preferences.
“What secular humanists are really doing is to take this very small extract of the natural world that coincides with our stablished moral values (the flourishing and developing of a given species) and pretending to have found objective morality in nature – when in fact, nature is not biased towards flourishing and developing – those are just as natural as extinction or rape and infanticide among many species.”
Your thinking is far too black-and-white here. There are ALWAYS going to be certain advantages to being selfish, because selfishness does indeed offer survival benefits. That is indeed behind the cause of rape, infanticide, theft and more. But SOCIAL species can’t survive UNLESS there are genes that inhibit that behavior through some form of punishment.
For some species it means that members of the society who attack other members unprovoked are in turn attacked and destroyed because of their erratic behavior (we see that even in ant and bee societies). For others—like humans—it can include punishments like ostracism or incarceration. Conversely, there can also be rewards like fame, respect and increased reproductive attractiveness for demonstrating altruism, generosity and kindness.
For selfishness to survive in a social species, it must operate more clandestinely or exist in individuals who are strong/numerous enough to impose their will on others. But even in such “strong man” societies, lower ranking individuals end up constantly try to depose their leaders. The more morally sophisticated the society becomes, the more egalitarian it becomes, helping to curtail such selfishness (or at least drive it underground) while encouraging more moral behavior.
To clarify: Nature doesn’t care about anything, but INDIVIDUALS strive to flourish and develop, both intentionally (to find food to avoid hunger pangs, to find a mate to satisfy sexual urges, etc.) and unintentionally (evolution through selective pressures). Societies are the results of individuals who sacrifice some selfishness in order to reap the benefits of assistance, cooperation, specialization, etc. offered by living in a community.
“The most horrible human behaviors are just as naturally selected as empathy an cooperation – and, if you say “ok, but the horrible behaviors do not promote flourishing” – well, then you would be obviously moving the goalpost, because your initial argument is that we can find morality in nature alone based on evolution – so, you don’t get to dismiss the things you don’t like in our evolutionarily selected behaviors.”
As I think I’ve made clear above, I don’t dismiss the negative behaviors that are evolutionarily selected for. Selfishness CAN BE negative, but a certain amount of it is also ESSENTIAL to survival. Thus, there will ALWAYS be selective conflict between selfishness and altruism (although, in reality altruism incorporates a certain amount of selfishness, since individuals can benefit socially by demonstrating altruism).
“You have no escape here: either ANY behavior is morally correct, because it was evolutionarily selected, or at the very least it was not evolutionarily eliminated – or, you have to sneak in your preference for flourishing – a preference that is certainly nonexistent in a nature composed merely of matter – in order to selected which behaviors are moral.”
Well, clearly that escape was easy. I think your own notion of morality and evolution are too simplistic to match the reality of how they actually work.
“Furthermore, when do you think there was more moral evolution: in the 5 million years from the appearance of the first human ancestors, or in the 10000 years of human civilization? If evolution had any relevance in morality, the majority of our moral development should have happened during the former, not the latter.”
Morality—in its most primitive forms—was there hundreds of millions of years before our hominoid ancestors came along. It started at least as far back as sexual reproduction. Species that kill each other on sight are unlikely to successfully reproduce. Behavior to at least restrain that long enough to mate must exist. Restraint must also exist upon producing eggs or young, because parents that immediately eat their own eggs or young are not going to be successful at reproduction. So the core of morality HAD to evolve in species that reproduce sexually, or they would have gone extinct immediately. Over time, those instincts to cooperate with a mate and offspring expanded because they offered hunting, protection and education advantages to offspring, increasing their odds of survival. It wouldn’t take much to evolutionarily expand that behavior to include related family groups, then small social groups, and beyond.
Humans are just among the most social of social species, which is why our codes of behavior (read morality) are highly sophisticated. But it’s nothing more than a progression of a process that started well over 500 million years ago.
“The question is really simple: imagine there was absolutely ZERO societal, religious and legal ethics or morality, and you have to find it purely in nature: there is nothing in nature alone that would drive you to pick flourishing and cooperation over all the other horrible things.”
That’s because we humans never evolved WITHOUT the influence of social behaviors. It’s like saying imagine there was absolutely ZERO language and you had to find it purely in nature. Our species evolved in societies that already HAD forms of language, gradually building upon them as the ability to communicate sophisticated concepts became highly advantageous to our survival.
Now, all this is how morality could evolve through purely naturalistic processes, without the need for any divine lawmaker. Am I saying this is necessarily EXACTLY how morality evolved? No, I’m sure there are minor details that may turn out to be different (for example, a likely one would be that the first sexual cooperation could very well have occurred in species that weren’t innately hostile toward one another). But the point is that there IS very much a natural, evolutionary basis for the source of morality. One doesn’t need to resort to the supernatural for a plausible explanation. And since we KNOW the natural world exists and we KNOW that selective forces can dramatically change both mental and physical characteristics, the most parsimonious explanation is that morality evolved naturally. Positing a god for morality is thus a violation of Occam’s Razer because it multiplies unnecessary entities.
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February 17, 2025 at 6:59 am
Despite certain advantages to being selfish, EVERY social species demonstrates some form of morality (even if it’s just don’t attack your own offspring).
What the hell are you talking about?
Infanticide, rape, incest, abandoning sick individuals to die are very common among many species. Again, you are cherry-picking what you like about evolution. But even if today, there was nothing but cooperation, this would be meaningless, because you don’t know all the mechanisms that lead us to this point in evolution and which ones will lead us to the next evolutionary step 10 million years from now. If the fertility rates go down dangerously, would rape become moral, to avoid extinction?
except for the fact that WE value flourishing
We who? Which society? Ours, or Hitlers?
Who defines what flourishing is? It’s merely the total amount of individuals? Then, murdering people who consume resources that would serve a larger number of individuals has to be morally correct in your worldview.
Again, you don’t get to appeal to society established morals or preferences – you said you could find morality on nature alone – show me!
Selfishness CAN BE negative, but a certain amount of it is also ESSENTIAL to survival
Then how can a moral worldview be based on that?
Who determines what amount of rape and infanticide is acceptable?
And by the way, survival of whom? Of the largest possible number of individuals? Again, where did you get that preference from?
Certainly not from nature – I proved, and you admitted, nature couldn’t care less about our survival.
If it’s just the maximum number of individuals, than you have to be against homosexuality, for example, which is a reproductive dead end.
If it’s not that, then what is it? It’s just on the individual level? So, any act is morally correct as long as it help anyone survive?
So the core of morality HAD to evolve in species that reproduce sexually, or they would have gone extinct immediately.
This is just a pathetic petitio-principii.
“Morality comes from evolution because without morality we could not evolve”
How would you know?
Are you saying it’s impossible to evolve without the notion that rape and murder are wrong?
This happens all the time with several species.
You are just guessing – no one knows which mechanisms drove human evolution throughout those millions of years, and no one can say that one specific set of behaviors is essential to a given species to evolve – that’s actually quite silly, since the very idea of evolution is to select the any behaviors that are more beneficial in a given moment.
But it’s nothing more than a progression of a process that started well over 500 million years ago.
You have presented no evidence for that at all. You just have to read any archeology book – mass murders, rapes, horrific human sacrifices were the norm, not the exception before human civilization – evolution did nothing in hundreds of millions of years to produce something like the notion of universal human rights – what you call “evolutionary moral compass” is nothing but the must brutal and ruthless fight to survive, like apes or lions do – are your moral values the same as apes? Why would you be against incest then?
It’s like saying imagine there was absolutely ZERO language and you had to find it purely in nature.
Except that I am not claiming language can be found in nature alone. You’re the one trying(and failing miserably) to prove that we can find morality in nature and evolution.
And since we KNOW the natural world exists and we KNOW that selective forces can dramatically change both mental and physical characteristics, the most parsimonious explanation is that morality evolved naturally.
That is not the most parsimonious explanation – is just the explanation that coincides with your secular religion.
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February 17, 2025 at 7:34 am
Positing a god for morality is thus a violation of Occam’s Razer because it multiplies unnecessary entities.
Occam’s Razor is not what you think it is. It can only be used as a principle to discard an explanation when you have two equally reasonable and logically valid explanations, and one of them is simpler and more elegant than the other – which is clearly not the case.
Your explanation is totally flawed, and quite frankly, it’s a silly endeavor – the idea that good and bad can be determined purely from observing how atoms organize and how energy is used to produce this or that thermodynamic work – in a materialistic worldview, there’s absolutely no difference if the human race goes extinct and all the matter that composes our bodies will now be part of a tree or a zebra.
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February 17, 2025 at 7:51 am
To clarify: Nature doesn’t care about anything, but INDIVIDUALS strive to flourish and develop, both intentionally
And why is that good or preferable?
What are you appealing to here? Your ultimate source of morality is the will of each individual?
Based on nature and evolution, why is the will to survive morally superior to the will to exterminate an entire race?
Why is the will to organize energy and matter like A better than organizing it like B?
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February 17, 2025 at 9:51 am
Sorry for that many answers, I don’t know how to edit my comments, so I keep adding others.
To clarify: Nature doesn’t care about anything, but INDIVIDUALS strive to flourish and develop, both intentionally
One more thought about this particular point- the will to survive, or any will for that matter, is just a collection of neurochemical/electrical impulses on the brain. If nature is your sole source of morality, how are those neurochemical/electrical impulses morally better than the ones that drive you to murder or rape?
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February 20, 2025 at 12:50 am
It wouldn’t take much to evolutionarily expand that behavior to include related family groups, then small social groups, and beyond.
Really? So, if evolution is all it takes, where is the notion of universal value of life in ANY OTHER SPECIES?
And how is caring for individuals outside your group, that will compete for resources good for survival?
Over time, those instincts to cooperate with a mate and offspring expanded because they offered hunting, protection and education advantages to offspring, increasing their odds of survival.
You keep conflating cooperation, in the context of evolution and survival, with a general sense of respect for human life, which is the base of human morality.
That’s obviously false – cooperation in an evolutionary sense is merely an utilitarian sense of conflict avoidance INSIDE YOUR GROUP, in order to survive.
That is nothing like the much broader idea that human life is valuable per se.
If anything, your wonderful “evolutionary moral compass” could give birth to some extreme form of sectarianism/Tribalism but never to a general moral sense that makes me care for a starving kid in Africa, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with the cooperation for survival inside my group.
Of course, you could always argue that the “utilitarian sense of conflict avoidance” evolved to a general sense of recognition of the value of human life – but that would be nothing but speculation.
Besides, if you can just take any human behavior, like valuing human life, and say that “you know, in the end, that was a result of evolution, because we are here, and that behavior, was necessary for our survival” – well, then your argument is simply unfalsifiable.
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February 20, 2025 at 9:12 am
“Infanticide, rape, incest, abandoning sick individuals to die are very common among many species. Again, you are cherry-picking what you like about evolution.”
I’m not sure you paid attention to what I said, because it seems you are arguing a strawman fallacy. My post says NOTHING about denying that infanticide, rape, etc. are common among species. What I said was “EVERY social species demonstrates some form of morality (even if it’s just don’t attack your own offspring).” That is demonstrably true. Any social species that attacks its own offspring (again, SPECIES, not individuals) will go extinct.
“If the fertility rates go down dangerously, would rape become moral, to avoid extinction?
Morality is about enhancing well-being. Evil behavior is behavior that deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or suffering. Thus, rape would never become moral, EVEN IF IT BECAME NECESSARY for our survival. But it would persist, because those who didn’t commit rape in that instance would die out.
“We who? Which society? Ours, or Hitlers?
Who defines what flourishing is? It’s merely the total amount of individuals? Then, murdering people who consume resources that would serve a larger number of individuals has to be morally correct in your worldview.”
I explained flourishing in my OP (again, please pay attention): “Any species that lacks that drive to survive and reproduce (i.e., the attempt to “flourish,” you could say) will go extinct, thereby guaranteeing that the species that DO flourish have a drive to do so.”
Virtually ALL of us value flourishing (yes, Hitler did too). We ALL want to live in societies where you can safely walk down the street, trust your neighbors, trust the food you eat, and so on. That certainly doesn’t mean that people aren’t capable of “othering” those who aren’t like them or whom they have defined as undesirable. Everybody does that to some degree. We almost universally value our own families more than some stranger in another country with little in common with ourselves.
And murdering people would not enhance their well-being, now would it? So why in the world would you think murder would be morally correct in my worldview? In fact, assuming you’re a Christian, isn’t murder morally correct in YOUR worldview? After all, your God literally orders people to commit murder over and over again in the Bible—including babies. There is nothing in secular humanism or similar atheistic philosophies that would ever countenance such behavior.
“Again, you don’t get to appeal to society established morals or preferences – you said you could find morality on nature alone – show me!”
I already DID in my OP: “We find numerous species—from elephants to chimpanzees to rats and more—that exhibit high levels of moral behavior, like fairness and compassion.” But if that’s not enough for you, here you go:
Empathy and Mourning: Elephants have been observed displaying empathy and mourning behaviors when a member of their herd dies. They may touch the deceased with their trunks and exhibit signs of grief, such as staying near the body for extended periods.
Altruism: Dolphins have been known to help injured or sick members of their pod by supporting them to the surface to breathe. They have also been observed helping humans in distress, such as rescuing swimmers from drowning.
Fairness and Reciprocity: Chimpanzees demonstrate a sense of fairness and reciprocity. They often share food with other members of their group, especially if the other chimpanzee has shared food with them in the past.
Conflict Resolution: Bonobos are known for their peaceful conflict resolution. They often use social bonding behaviors, such as grooming and play, to diffuse tension and avoid aggression within their group.
Reciprocal Altruism: Vampire bats exhibit reciprocal altruism by sharing blood meals with fellow bats that did not find food. This behavior is based on the expectation that the favor will be returned in the future.
Cooperation: Wolves demonstrate strong cooperation and loyalty within their pack. They work together to hunt and share the food, ensuring the survival of the entire group. Crows behave similarly.
These are all examples of morality in nature.
“Then how can a moral worldview be based on that? Who determines what amount of rape and infanticide is acceptable?”
Hmm, you seem to think that because a certain amount of selfishness is essential to survival, that it implies a certain amount of rape and infanticide (behaviors, BTW, committed or condoned by the God of the Bible). Clearly you haven’t thought it through. NO rape or infanticide is acceptable. Being somewhat selfish is tolerated by virtually all societies. In general, we have an inherent desire to survive, minimize our suffering, to keep our possessions, defend our loved ones even when they may be in the wrong, etc. That does NOT require people to commit or condone behavior that deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or suffering.
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if the religious deliberately misconstrue everything that challenges their worldview, or whether they do it unconsciously.
“Certainly not from nature – I proved, and you admitted, nature couldn’t care less about our survival.”
Sure…but so what? WE care about our survival. So does every living species. Is this really so hard to understand?
“If it’s just the maximum number of individuals, than you have to be against homosexuality, for example, which is a reproductive dead end.”
It’s NOT about the maximum number of individuals. It’s about NOT causing deliberate and unnecessary harm or suffering.
And homosexuality is certainly NOT a reproductive dead end. Studies have found that female maternal relatives of homosexual men, such as mothers and aunts, exhibit higher fecundity compared to those of heterosexual men. This increased reproductive success is thought to be due to genetic factors that promote both male homosexuality and female fecundity.
“If it’s not that, then what is it? It’s just on the individual level? So, any act is morally correct as long as it help anyone survive?”
Okay, my answers above respond to these questions and the statements that follow. You’ve been prolific in your writing, so I’ll move on to them.
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February 20, 2025 at 9:13 am
“Occam’s Razor is not what you think it is. It can only be used as a principle to discard an explanation when you have two equally reasonable and logically valid explanations, and one of them is simpler and more elegant than the other – which is clearly not the case.”
You ALMOST have it right, but not quite. It only means that when you have competing hypotheses, the simplest one that requires the fewest assumptions is often the correct one. It does NOT mean it can be used as a principle to discard an explanation.
“Your explanation is totally flawed, and quite frankly, it’s a silly endeavor – the idea that good and bad can be determined purely from observing how atoms organize and how energy is used to produce this or that thermodynamic work – in a materialistic worldview, there’s absolutely no difference if the human race goes extinct and all the matter that composes our bodies will now be part of a tree or a zebra.”
What does that have to do with ANYTHING I’ve said? Morality is a naturally emergent behavior that’s necessary for species to derive benefits from social societies (like cooperation and specialization). Species that don’t evolve mechanisms for cooperation and harmony won’t become social species because they won’t get along well enough to do so.
How does that have anything at all to do with how atoms organize and the rest of the weird claims you’ve made?
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February 20, 2025 at 9:13 am
“And why is that good or preferable?
What are you appealing to here? Your ultimate source of morality is the will of each individual?
Based on nature and evolution, why is the will to survive morally superior to the will to exterminate an entire race?
Why is the will to organize energy and matter like A better than organizing it like B?”
It’s as if you didn’t read and understand anything in my post. You seem to be grasping at conclusions I have not in any way made.
The ultimate source of morality is behavior that evolved to allow social species to thrive. And, one last time, morality is about avoiding deliberately and unnecessarily causing harm or suffering. Once you understand that basic concept, that should clear up all your confusion. At least I’m hoping so.
Genocide is not part of any secular humanist code. But the God of the Bible commits or condones it many times in the Bible—along with nearly every other behavior we ourselves (Christians included) use to define evil beings. So if you are (indirectly) appealing to God for your moral guidance, you’re not going to find it. All you get is orders to obey. That’s not morality.
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February 20, 2025 at 9:14 am
“Really? So, if evolution is all it takes, where is the notion of universal value of life in ANY OTHER SPECIES?”
A universal value of life isn’t a necessary part of morality at all. In fact, EVERY species that must consume other life in order to survive has to make an exception to any “universal value of life” (I’m assuming you aren’t referring to those who have no problem killing but revere the lives they take, such as some native tribes).
“And how is caring for individuals outside your group, that will compete for resources good for survival?”
You can ask that question of a single family group and find the answer there. Why do we care for our own children, when they take our resources? We do it because we have an instinctual drive to value our offspring and help them thrive. Without it, we would go extinct. That SAME drive can be expanded to others quite easily, as anyone who has had a friend, a pet, or helped a stranger knows. We get that same psychological reward when we do—as long as we don’t lack empathy and compassion from genetic variation or contrary upbringing.
“You keep conflating cooperation, in the context of evolution and survival, with a general sense of respect for human life, which is the base of human morality.”
Ah, well there’s your problem. I’m talking about natural origins of morality, which emerge in ALL social species in some form or other—humans included. Cooperation is one of the main benefits to social species (along with specialization). Genes that encourage (or at least allow for) cooperation are the basis of morality, because without at least some form of morality, cooperation is tenuous at best, impossible at worst.
“If anything, your wonderful “evolutionary moral compass” could give birth to some extreme form of sectarianism/Tribalism but never to a general moral sense that makes me care for a starving kid in Africa, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with the cooperation for survival inside my group.”
I think your problem with understanding this is that you seem to think morality is a defined set of rules—like caring for a starving kid in Africa. But it’s not that at all. Different societies have different ideas of what is moral, even if the basics necessary for societies to survive are essentially universal (for some societies it is the highest morality to treat guests well; for others it is to give people their space, for example). If you care about a starving kid in Africa, it’s because natural selection has caused us to evolve predispositions to behaviors that encourage cooperation and harmony. How that is expressed can vary, which is why we have so many varied societies…yet ALL can cooperate and specialize.
“Besides, if you can just take any human behavior, like valuing human life, and say that “you know, in the end, that was a result of evolution, because we are here, and that behavior, was necessary for our survival” – well, then your argument is simply unfalsifiable.”
I did not claim that my argument is falsifiable. Despite the evidence we have from ethology to psychology and sociology, we can never know exactly how morality evolved, because psychological evolution doesn’t leave many fossils.
But that’s not my point. My point is that we have plausible NATURALISTIC explanations for morality that do not require violating parsimony by positing supernatural gods.
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February 20, 2025 at 10:05 am
Thus, rape would never become moral, EVEN IF IT BECAME NECESSARY for our survival
So, the debate is over. This is an admission of defeat.
Why is rape NEVER moral? Where does this NEVER come from? You just established an absolute moral value out of thin air.
The ultimate source of morality is behavior that evolved to allow social species to thrive. And, one last time, morality is about avoiding deliberately and unnecessarily causing harm or suffering.
Again, SAYS WHO?
Why is the behavior the allows species to thrive better than any genocidal or destructive behavior judging by nature alone?
You seem to forget Hume’s Guillotine: you CANNOT derive values from facts!
The fact that individuals want to survive bears absolutely ZERO moral value.
But the God of the Bible commits or condones it many times in the Bible
I will not get into a theological debate with you. You can’t even grasp very basic philosophical concepts, like the is-ought problem – you should be more humble with the scope of your claims and avoid going into stuff you never studied.
Besides, I never said anything about the God of the bible. That’s not the topic.
How does that have anything at all to do with how atoms organize and the rest of the weird claims you’ve made?
It has EVERYTHING to do. The natural world is nothing but matter organized in a certain way, and energy used to perform certain thermodynamic work – do I have to tell you how stupid it is to think that you can find god and bad in that alone?
And homosexuality is certainly NOT a reproductive dead end. Studies have found that female maternal relatives of homosexual men, such as mothers and aunts, exhibit higher fecundity compared to those of heterosexual men.
I love when the super rational and scientific atheists start supporting any pseudo-science they can find out of fear of being cancelled by the woke mob.
Can same sex people reproduce? No.
That’s the VERY DEFINITION of dead end, buddy.
What produces more changes of flourishing, heterosexuals reproducing, or gay men making their mothers more fertile – my god, that is so pathetic it hurts.
By the way, the mother/aunt still has to be heterosexual, right? otherwise you gay man with fertility jedi powers wouldn’t even exist.
why in the world would you think murder would be morally correct in my worldview?
It HAS to be. But of course, I caught you off guard, and you just changed the definition of flourishing to “yeah, not the total number of individuals, but more like no one get’s hurt and everyone is happy” – so, flourishing just means whatever you need in order to avoid the fact that many horrible things are perfectly acceptable if the ultimate source of morality is “flourishing”.
If you care about a starving kid in Africa, it’s because natural selection has caused us to evolve predispositions to behaviors that encourage cooperation and harmony.
Now you’re just being dishonest. I mean, you admitted yourself that your position is not falsifiable, you just take anything and say “it’s because of evolution”, just fill the gaps. You’re way more religious than you think, buddy. You position is a cultist one.
For me, it all comes down to my last argument from earlier this week:
the will to survive, or any will for that matter, is just a collection of neurochemical/electrical impulses on the brain. If nature is your sole source of morality, how are those neurochemical/electrical impulses morally better than the ones that drive you to murder or rape?
It’s you time to shine, buddy – explain to me why the arbitrary neurochemical/electrical impulses that you like(cooperation and will to survive) are morally superior to the neurochemical/electrical impulses that drive people to murder or rape.
When you understand why this question has no possible answer in a totally materialistic worldview, you will understand Hume’s Guillotine, and ultimately, the absurdity of “evolutionary moral”.
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February 20, 2025 at 1:50 pm
The ultimate source of morality is behavior that evolved to allow social species to thrive.
I had to comment again because only later I realized how insanely idiotic this was
Do you REALLY believe that a mindless natural process has the magical power to grant rights to individuals ?
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February 20, 2025 at 11:51 pm
That SAME drive can be expanded to others quite easily, as anyone who has had a friend, a pet, or helped a stranger knows. We get that same psychological reward when we do—as long as we don’t lack empathy and compassion from genetic variation or contrary upbringing.
Yes, it indeed it’s quite easy when you can just claim it’s because of evolution, with no evidence at all, even though compassion for other groups at the risk of your own safety and capacity to find resources is entirely against the survival instinct.
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February 21, 2025 at 12:39 am
Genocide is not part of any secular humanist code.
Of course it is.
It’s perfectly possible to defend genocide having your bible(the secular humanist manifesto) as a guide
All you need is to prove that the total net outcome of well being will be higher.
Forcing people to donate organs that can be donated while alive – undeniably will generate a higher net amount of well being – the people forced to donate will still be alive, and many lives will be saved
Murdering all terminally ill people, will generate a higher net amount of well being – we will end their suffering, and save resources to help many other people
Force people to have kids if birth rates go dangerously low will generate a higher net amount of well being – if the population starts to get too old, this will cause a collapse in the economy and the pensions.
Pedophilia is totally ok in a secular humanist society, as long as the children are intellectually evolved enough to consent. As a believer in the unstoppable progress of human evolution, I don’t see how you would object to the possibility of children evolving to understand sex from an early age.
The list could go on and on
The only way you could object to all this would be by saying that human life has intrinsic value, which obviously you can’t, because your source of morality is not objective.
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February 21, 2025 at 12:44 am
I did not claim that my argument is falsifiable. Despite the evidence we have from ethology to psychology and sociology, we can never know exactly how morality evolved, because psychological evolution doesn’t leave many fossils.
All of those are DESCRIPTIVE domains of human knowledge. Describing how things are is irrelevant to determine how they should be – which is the nature of moral claims
“We know perfectly well how pedophilia works – we can perfectly describe the neural and psychological mechanisms behind it and how it became a part of human psyche throughout the evolutionary process – therefore, pedophilia is morally correct”
This is your argument.
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February 22, 2025 at 2:47 am
The ultimate source of morality is behavior that evolved to allow social species to thrive.
Which other natural processes have this magical power of granting rights(because that’s what a source of morality has to be, otherwise, if it’s not morally binding, it would be just a collection of random preferences) ?
Does the photosynthesis grants the plants the right to be green? Should it be a crime to take a plant and paint it white?
What about radioactive decay – does it give atoms the right to lose energy in the form of radiation? Should it be considered immoral to interfere with that?
Or is it just THIS ONE natural process(natural selection) that you decided to turn into some sort of deity, so that it can grant rights and establish moral rules?
Don’t even bother saying
plants an atoms don’t have rights, because they are not sentient – because that would be just adding one more rule ex post facto in a desperate attempt to save your argument – if natural processes can grant rights, you don’t get to cherry-pick this or that natural process or which entities are affected by that process.
But even if a granted you that, psychopathy is a natural process and is related to humans:
We can explain it with biological basis, genetic factors, environmental influence, etc – perfectly natural.
There’s nothing “more natural” about natural selection than about being a psychopathy.
So, if natural selection stablishes moral rules that give you the right to live in an environment where people cooperate, then the natural factors that determine psychopathy, give you the moral right to be a psychopath.
In all honesty, your devotion to the natural selection god is way more delusional than scientology.
I’m done playing with with little man.
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February 23, 2025 at 9:49 am
So, the debate is over. This is an admission of defeat.
Oh really? In what way? I think the problem you’re having here is conflating morality with the instinct to survive. You do realize that two evolutionary imperatives can be in conflict, right? Like increased size with increased mobility, or bigger brains with decreased protein and calorie consumption? Or perhaps you are stuck in black-and-white thinking? That’s a common issue among the religious.
Perhaps making the contrast even more stark will help you understand it: Imagine you’re stranded and there is only enough food for one person to survive until you’re rescued. Would it be MORAL for one of you to kill the other to ensure at least one person survives? No, of course not, because you would not be increasing the wellbeing. But would it be IMMORAL? Since immoral behavior is the deliberate and unnecessary causing of harm or suffering, it’s fair to argue that the killing would be NECESSARY in order for at least SOME survival, in which case it wouldn’t be immoral, either. Not everything is black and white. Similarly, rape is never MORAL, but if it became absolutely necessary for survival (there are numerous species that do indeed have to resort to that, such as the Galapagos marine iguanas I used to show as a naturalist), it’s not IMMORAL.
But as a Christian (I’m assuming you are, and I apologize if you are not), you really have no standing to argue the morality of rape. After all, your God condones and even dictates rape in some instances. For example:
Again, SAYS WHO?
If you really can’t see why deliberately and unnecessarily causing harm or suffering is the very essence of what makes an act immoral, then you really have no moral compass and I’m not sure we can ever find common ground. This is what religion does to people. To quote Steven Weinberg, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
You seem to forget Hume’s Guillotine: you CANNOT derive values from facts!
No, but you CAN derive facts from values. There is no OBJECTIVE morality in the absence of values, but there certainly can be once you’ve established values. So if you value living in a society without constant fear for your life, property, freedom, etc., and you value being able to make your own choices to enhance the meaning and purpose of your life, THEN it becomes possible to make OBJECTIVE moral claims within that context—like murder, theft, slavery, rape, torture, etc. are objectively contrary to your goals, while clean water and air, healthy food, social cohesion, etc. are objectively supportive of those goals. Thus, slavery = evil, healthy food = good.
The fact that individuals want to survive bears absolutely ZERO moral value.
I never said it did. What I said is that morality can be plausibly explained by naturalistic means, and I demonstrated an evolutionary pathway.
I will not get into a theological debate with you.
I’m not surprised. The Bible is extremely difficult to defend when arguing everything from morality to science, so most apologists prefer to try attacking secular philosophies and evolution instead.
Besides, I never said anything about the God of the bible. That’s not the topic.
Yes, I’m familiar with Christian apologists doing everything possible to avoid having to defend their religion in arguments about morality. After all, morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told, whereas religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right. The two ways of thinking are not compatible.
It has EVERYTHING to do. The natural world is nothing but matter organized in a certain way, and energy used to perform certain thermodynamic work – do I have to tell you how stupid it is to think that you can find god and bad in that alone?
Did you notice the Freudian slip there? 😉 I’m going to presume you meant to say it is stupid to “think that you can find GOOD and bad in that alone.” But talk about a non-sequitur! Literally NOBODY is saying atoms or energy have anything to do with morality. Morality ONLY comes into play when you have values, and that doesn’t exist until you have life. Life evolves mechanisms to increase survival. Social living and intelligence are mechanisms that can increase survival. Social living requires some tradeoffs in order to function (such as not taking a bite out of your neighbor whenever you want), and intelligence causes values and thus morality to emerge. All primates have developed morality, but humans have developed it the most. Just because humans require atoms and energy does not IN ANY WAY mean atoms and energy ALONE result in good and bad. That was quite a leap you made there!
I love when the super rational and scientific atheists start supporting any pseudo-science they can find out of fear of being cancelled by the woke mob.
Pseudoscience? Oh, you mean like the research cited in these “woke” science journals and articles:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/instance/1691850/pdf/15539346.pdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg1510
https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/embr.202255290
My upbringing has been heavy on the sciences, I have a degree in evolution science, and I even did some of my graduate work in science philosophy. So your accusation did make me chuckle. 🙂 In any event, as you can see, the science supports my claim, not yours.
Can same sex people reproduce? No.
That’s the VERY DEFINITION of dead end, buddy.
Of course they can reproduce! Just not with one another. You ARE aware that literally millions of LGBTQ+ people worldwide have children that they didn’t adopt, right? They either use a surrogate or marry a member of the opposite sex to raise children. I personally know at least three couples who reproduced that way. They just have homosexual lovers and went into their relationships with full disclosure. Not every relationship between consenting adults has to follow some prescribed path.
But the scientific research shows that the female siblings of homosexuals have increased fecundity. And since they share 25% of the same genes, there is genetic impetus for some male homosexuality to always be present in the population.
What produces more changes of flourishing, heterosexuals reproducing, or gay men making their mothers more fertile – my god, that is so pathetic it hurts.
Ah, so now you’re going to resort to a combination argument from ignorance and ad hominem fallacy? You seem to be equating flourishing STRICTLY with reproduction, which is most certainly not the case. Flourishing is living life in a way that individuals and societies find enriching and fulfilling according to one’s values. Maximizing flourishing is what morality is about. Morality evolved from the selection of genes promoting socially beneficial behaviors, like compassion, friendship and empathy. So while flourishing leads to genetic selection for morality at the individual level, it’s the implementation of morality leads to social flourishing. LGBTQ+ persons living their lives without fear of religious zealots ostracizing, demonizing, marginalizing and otherwise “othering” is what leads to them flourishing, which in turn leads to society flourishing.
It HAS to be. But of course, I caught you off guard, and you just changed the definition of flourishing to “yeah, not the total number of individuals, but more like no one get’s hurt and everyone is happy” – so, flourishing just means whatever you need in order to avoid the fact that many horrible things are perfectly acceptable if the ultimate source of morality is “flourishing”.
Sorry, but YOU are the one who made that irrational leap when you said “Who defines what flourishing is? It’s merely the total amount of individuals? Then, murdering people who consume resources that would serve a larger number of individuals has to be morally correct in your worldview.” YOU asked if it “merely” meant the “total amount of individuals,” then continued on as if I had answered “yes,” when I most certainly did not.
As I said above, flourishing is living life in a way that individuals and societies find enriching and fulfilling according to one’s values. Murder by definition REDUCES the flourishing of individuals, which is why we have had laws against it since long before Moses supposedly received the 10 Commandments. And so you couldn’t be more wrong in claiming that my worldview considers murder to be morally correct. I’m beginning to think you’re just looking for ways to distort my words to fit your preconceptions.
I know you don’t want to talk about “morality” in the Bible because it’s so hard to rationally defend, but your religion (again, assuming Christianity here) believes in a God who over and over again ordered his people commit genocide, and even to take babies from their mothers and slaughter them. Thus, Christianity provides PRECEDENT for considering murder moral, whereas philosophies like secular humanism cannot. That’s why that Steven Weinberg quote is so on point: with or without religion you have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Now you’re just being dishonest. I mean, you admitted yourself that your position is not falsifiable, you just take anything and say “it’s because of evolution”, just fill the gaps.
On the contrary, I have been quite honest about the evidence and how science works. But one does NOT evaluate the validity of a hypothesis or theory by pointing to GAPS in them, but by testing the falsifiable predictions they make. If testing those predictions fails to falsify them, and instead supports them, THAT is what validates the claim. And when a successful theory—like evolutionary theory—also generates predictions that are NOT falsifiable, we recognize them as unfalsifiable…but that does NOT mean those predictions have no weight. After all, if all life evolved from a common ancestor through natural processes, as we can demonstrate, then it follows that behavior ALSO evolved through natural processes. The exact PROCESS may never be known, but we can be reasonably certain that it did evolve naturally.
It’s you time to shine, buddy – explain to me why the arbitrary neurochemical/electrical impulses that you like(cooperation and will to survive) are morally superior to the neurochemical/electrical impulses that drive people to murder or rape.
Oh come on, that’s so easy to answer that I’m sure you could figure it out if you just thought about it for a moment: It’s because I VALUE living in a society free of fear, persecution, deprivation, etc., and I want to flourish by living a healthy, meaningful, purposeful life. Such desires are just the result of neurochemical impulses, sure, but those are particular neurochemical impulses that are NATURALLY SELECTIVE compared to drives to murder and rape. How is that? Because I live in a society that shares certain values, and we consider murderers and rapists to be immoral because they deliberately and unnecessarily cause harm or suffering, which is CONTRARY to our flourishing. Consequently, we remove those people from society to protect ourselves. The result is that genes which favor such aggressive, destructive impulses tend to get weeded out of society and out of the gene pool (although never completely, since not everyone is caught), while those who share our values tend to have greater reproductive success. Thus perpetuates the selective pressure toward behavior that allows functioning in our society.
Do you really have trouble understanding that simple equation?
When you understand why this question has no possible answer in a totally materialistic worldview, you will understand Hume’s Guillotine, and ultimately, the absurdity of “evolutionary moral”.
Wow, you clearly need to expand your awareness more, since the refutation of that claim is trivially easy.
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February 23, 2025 at 9:52 am
I had to comment again because only later I realized how insanely idiotic this was
Yeah, it may sound idiotic to someone who hasn’t studied evolution but believes in talking snakes and donkeys, women being created from a rib, a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago, angels, miracles, eternal life after death, and a god who sacrificed himself to himself in order to serve as a loophole for a rule he himself made. 😉
Do you REALLY believe that a mindless natural process has the magical power to grant rights to individuals ?
Rights? Of course not. Rights are what people endow. Rights are shared VALUES, and morality is behavior that encourages and emphasizes those shared values.
Yes, it indeed it’s quite easy when you can just claim it’s because of evolution, with no evidence at all, even though compassion for other groups at the risk of your own safety and capacity to find resources is entirely against the survival instinct.
How many humans do you know who can survive and thrive without cooperation and specialization? I’ll bet not many. As a species, we are MASSIVELY advantaged by our genes enabling social cohesion.
We have ample evidence that social species have advantages over solitary species (to be clear, not ALL species, since ecosystems and natural survival strategies have a huge influence on whether social species have an advantage), so a species that develops the capacity for the ability to at least “get along” has an observable advantage in nature. It’s why many prey species band together, since more ears and eyes reduce the success of predators against them. The more intelligent species—especially omnivores and predators (such as wolves, hunting dogs, meerkats, lions, humans, etc.)—are also advantaged by cooperative hunting for resources. And those same species can also be advantaged by specialization, which is especially true for the higher primates (like chimpanzees and humans).
All of this selection pressure is DEMONSTRABLE in social species throughout the world. So saying there is no evidence for this having evolved is just based on ignorance.
Of course it is.
It’s perfectly possible to defend genocide having your bible(the secular humanist manifesto) as a guide
All you need is to prove that the total net outcome of well being will be higher.
This is a great example of how to tell me you know nothing about secular humanism without telling me you know nothing about secular humanism. 😉 First off, there are MULTIPLE secular philosophies that fall under the umbrella of secular humanism, but NONE of them justify genocide. There are 21 basic affirmations of secular humanism, but to keep it short I’ll post just the ones relevant to your claim:
As you can see, these beliefs are decidedly ANTI-genocide. You almost couldn’t ask for a better set of beliefs.
And just for comparison, let’s take a look at your Bible’s 10 CommandmentsfromExodus 34:14-28 (I’m assuming you’re a Christian):
Ten commandments from a supposedly all-knowing being…yet not one word of that prohibits genocide. Or slavery, or rape, or torture, or child abuse, or theft…
The list could go on and on
Since ALL of the examples you listed would violate the tenets of secular humanism, I’ll just repeat: Tell me you know nothing about secular humanism without telling me you know nothing about secular humanism.
The only way you could object to all this would be by saying that human life has intrinsic value, which obviously you can’t, because your source of morality is not objective.
What evidence do you have that live DOES have intrinsic value? What it has is value TO US. Morality alone is subjective, but morality in the context of values can indeed be objective.
But the amusing thing is, you believe that committing murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, cannibalism, betrayal, lying, etc. is morally wrong, right? And you also believe that your God is good, right? Yet if I point out that your God commits or condones ALL those evil behaviors, you’ll quickly insist that it’s moral when God does them, right? So if you base morality on who the person IS, not on what he DOES, you believe in a SUBJECTIVE morality.
Describing how things are is irrelevant to determine how they should be – which is the nature of moral claims
WE as a society determine what is and isn’t moral. Some of today’s morally accepted beliefs will likely be considered immoral in the future (such as killing animals for food, perhaps), just like some of the morally accepted beliefs from 2,000 years ago (like genocide and slavery) are today considered immoral.
“We know perfectly well how pedophilia works – we can perfectly describe the neural and psychological mechanisms behind it and how it became a part of human psyche throughout the evolutionary process – therefore, pedophilia is morally correct”
This is your argument.
No, this is your straw man of my argument, which is a fallacy and dishonest. I’ve made it perfectly clear that immorality is behavior that deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or suffering. Does pedophilia cause harm or suffering? It certainly can. Therefore, pedophilia is immoral.
Why is it that Christians so often lie so brazenly, even when my text is right there for you to read?
Which other natural processes have this magical power of granting rights(because that’s what a source of morality has to be, otherwise, if it’s not morally binding, it would be just a collection of random preferences) ?
Again, natural processes don’t grant us rights, WE grant rights. And while they certainly are “preferences,” they are hardly random because they’re used to increase wellbeing and decrease harm.
Does the photosynthesis grants the plants the right to be green? Should it be a crime to take a plant and paint it white?
Why is it so hard for you to grasp that immorality is the deliberate and unnecessary cause of harm or suffering?
Don’t even bother saying
Yeah, I won’t, since all your claims so far are straw man arguments that have nothing to do with my positions on anything. They show you didn’t read or pay attention to what I actually said.
So, if natural selection stablishes moral rules that give you the right to live in an environment where people cooperate, then the natural factors that determine psychopathy, give you the moral right to be a psychopath.
First, psychopaths deliberately and unnecessarily cause harm or suffering, right? So why would anyone value them inflicting their harm and suffering on society. Now there are psychopaths that keep their behavior in check, and we let them inhabit and thrive in our societies, so it’s not psychopathy itself that’s the problem; it’s bad BEHAVIOR that matters.
Second, just because something is NATURAL doesn’t mean it’s GOOD. Diseases and environmental disasters are also natural, but that doesn’t mean we want them disrupting our lives. The evolution of morality isn’t GOOD in and of itself, EXCEPT in the context of successful human reproduction (which is the one most important defining feature of evolutionary success).
In all honesty, your devotion to the natural selection god is way more delusional than scientology.
“Devotion” to natural selection? What a strange thing to say. Natural selection is just a process. I’m no more devoted to that than I am to the existence of colors. What I’m devoted to is studying science, particularly evolution, because I value knowledge.
I’m done playing with with little man.
Yeah, good call. Quit while you’re behind.
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