One of the arguments Arminians level against Calvinism is that it makes evangelism superfluous. After all, if your neighbor is part of the elect God will ensure that he comes to faith whether you preach the Gospel to him or not. As part of God’s elect, it would be impossible for him not to come to faith. Likewise, if your neighbor is not part of the elect, no amount of evangelism will be effective for his conversion. So why evangelize if Calvinism is true? What’s the point?
Calvinists typically respond by saying God doesn’t just predestine the ends, but also the means. While God may have predestined your neighbor’s salvation (the ends), He also predestined that your neighbor would receive that salvation in response to your evangelism (the means).
While I can appreciate this response in principle, how exactly is God using your evangelism to bring about your neighbor’s salvation? To speak of God using evangelism to bring about salvation implies that evangelism contributes to the desired end in some way. I fail to see how this is so, given the strict monergism of Calvinism. Let me explain.
On Calvinism, the spiritual death from which humans suffer makes it impossible for them to respond positively to God until after God has regenerated their heart. Asking the unbeliever to respond positively to God is like asking your deceased loved one to go to the movies with you. No matter what you do or say, they will never go to the movies with you because their biological condition is such that it is impossible for them to do so. Likewise, no matter what we say to the unbeliever, he will never respond positively to God because his spiritual condition is such that it is impossible for him to do so. Sharing the Gospel with your unbelieving (albeit elect) neighbor is impotent in itself to cause or contribute to His conversion in any way. Nothing will happen until God exercises His sovereignty to unilaterally regenerate his heart. Then, and only then, will your neighbor respond positively to God in faith.
If only God’s sovereign act of regeneration is causally adequate to change your neighbor’s heart, giving him both the desire and ability to exercise faith in Christ, then in what sense can it be said that evangelism is the “means” to God’s end? If evangelism does not contribute to that end, in what meaningful sense can it be considered a means to that end? It seems to me that the only sense in which a Calvinist could say God is using evangelism as a means to saving the elect is that God has chosen to exercise his sovereign act of regeneration in conjunction with the preaching of the Gospel.[1] A temporal relationship between evangelism and regeneration, however, hardly constitutes means.
In the way of analogy, while I may choose to pick my children up only when someone rings my doorbell, is the doorbell the means by which I pick my children up? No, as evidenced by the fact that if ever decided not to pick up my children, you could ring my doorbell a hundred times but it will never result in my children being picked up. Whether they get picked up depends entirely on my will and my action, and nothing else. The ringing of the doorbell may be temporally related to my action, but it has no logical or causal relation to my action and thus cannot be said to be the means by which I perform the action. Indeed, the event that it is temporally correlated to my action is arbitrary. I could just as well choose to pick my children up only when the toilet flushes, only when a car drives by, or some other event. None of these events cause my action, and none of them are the means by which I perform the action. Likewise, a mere temporal correlation between evangelism and God’s sovereign act of regeneration is not enough to establish evangelism as a means to salvation. Calvinists need to establish a logical or causal connection between evangelism and salvation if they are to rightly speak of evangelism as a means to an end.
Far from demonstrating the necessity of evangelism, Calvinism renders evangelism arbitrary and irrelevant. It is arbitrary in the sense that God could have just as well chosen jumping rope as the occasion on which he exercises His sovereignty to regenerate the elect and the end would be just the same (since the end depends wholly on God’s act). It is irrelevant in the sense that God could dispense with evangelism altogether and the end would be just the same. It seems to me that if Calvinism is true, then evangelism is just an arbitrary, irrelevant formality we engage in.
While I see no way for Calvinists to counter the charge of arbitrariness, they could respond to the charge of irrelevance by arguing that God has commanded that we evangelize, and thus evangelism is relevant. While I would agree that God’s commands are relevant and should be obeyed because of God’s authority, this response misses the point. The charge of irrelevance pertains to the efficaciousness of evangelism, and given monergism, I fail to see how evangelism can be said to be efficacious in the conversion process. Perhaps the reason we need to evangelize is because God told us to, but this response fails to explain why God would command us to do so, and why the NT church considered this as such a priority if evangelism qua evangelism has on causal relationship to conversion.
In my opinion, only Arminians and Molinists can truly speak of evangelism as the means God has chosen by which the elect will come to faith, since on Arminianism and Molinism salvation is both temporally and logically dependent on evangelism.
If there are any Calvinists out there, I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
[1]Indeed, there are many Calvinists who can confess that they heard the Gospel several times before they experienced regeneration. Why didn’t they experience conversion after the first Gospel presentation if God has chosen to regenerate the elect in connection with the preaching of the Gospel? It can’t be due to the fact that the Gospel was not presented well enough the first few times, because the presentation is causally impotent to affect the outcome. Salvation is caused wholly and only by God’s sovereign act, regardless of the quality of the Gospel presentation. It can’t be due to the fact that their heart was not ready either, because man’s heart is never ready. Only God can make it ready. So why didn’t He make their heart ready after the first presentation of the Gospel? If there is no causal connection between evangelism and regeneration, and the connection is merely temporal in nature, then there is no reason for not regenerating them after the first Gospel presentation. The fact that they were not regenerated after the first Gospel presentation is good reason to believe that Calvinism is false. Evangelism actually contributes to the end, such that the quality of the Gospel presentation and the state of a person’s heart at the time can determine the outcome.
August 22, 2012 at 11:58 am
I think this is a valid complaint against the Calvinist perspective. I’m an advocate of absolute sovereignty and predestination (even determinism), but one of the flaws of Calvinist theology is that it is occasionally stuck on God’s “miraculous exceptions to nature” being required to make his will manifest, such that God’s Grace is always and only in terms of miracles.
If we say that God’s teleology can underlie even natural processes, then it’s perfectly valid to say that by employing evangelizers as “tools of honorable use” to convert the unfaithful, then God IS exercising Grace, even a sufficient Grace to regenerate the unbeliever.
In other words, God can use either the magical or the mundane to regenerate. The Calvinist mistake is insisting that Grace be only described in terms of the former.
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August 22, 2012 at 1:21 pm
“If we say that God’s teleology can underlie even natural processes, then it’s perfectly valid to say that by employing evangelizers as “tools of honorable use” to convert the unfaithful, then God IS exercising Grace, even a sufficient Grace to regenerate the unbeliever.”
How do we understand natural? Is that just the usual way God sustains and controls the laws and properties of things within creation? Does natural encompass the spiritual realm and angels? What about the word of God is that seen as natural?
I believe the word of God preached is God’s primary means of converting people. Ultimately God needs nothing to convert anyone. The only reason effect follows cause is because God has decided for it to be that way. He chooses to maintain fixed laws and the properties of things and works them all together to achieve his ends.
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August 22, 2012 at 2:17 pm
I have thought of a possible Calvinist rejoinder to my argument. Perhaps the purpose of evangelism is to direct the faith of the elect to its proper object once the elect has experienced regeneration and is capable of exercising faith. On this view, the preaching of the Gospel gives the elect the intellectual content necessary to direct their faith to its appropriate object.
While this gives evangelism a meaningful purpose in the salvation process, the fact remains that it is God’s sovereign act alone that causes salvation. Evangelism is not a means to salvation. The only way evangelism could be construed as a means to salvation is if one argued that without the preaching of the Gospel one could place their post-regeneration faith in the wrong object (because they don’t know what to believe in) and still be lost. To ensure that there are no elect, regenerate man who are still not saved, God has ordained that He will only regenerate those who have previously heard the Gospel. Even on this view, however, hearing the Gospel is not so much a means that God uses for salvation as a precondition for His sovereign act.
What do you think?
Jason
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August 22, 2012 at 3:06 pm
I would say the intellectual content is that which directs the will of the elect towards God. I don’t know what you mean by post regeneration faith. Before regeneration the elect does not have faith. Well at least not the faith in the way it is used in the bible. There is no possibility of anything going wrong because God is in control from beginning to end.
If someone is regenerate then they have heard the gospel and have been saved. The word preached begins the inward call and the words eventually have their regenerative effect under the ordained circumstances.
Yes God’s sovereign act alone causes salvation but God’s act (the effect of the whole chain of cause and effect in the temporal realm) is carried out through agents with their own integrity that he establishes and preserves through the maintenance of the secondary causes.
So it is BOTH God’s sovereign act as the primary cause and our preaching as the secondary cause that the elect are saved.
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August 22, 2012 at 7:05 pm
I would suggest reading the book “Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God” by Packer for a Calvinist response.
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August 25, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Jasondulle, what is your view of Total Depravity and Romans 3:10-18.
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August 26, 2012 at 9:00 pm
Jason,
Jason, good question, difficult territory. This is an area where we pile up words, sometimes without well-reasoned meaning, in order to throw answers at one’s opposing side. I don’t want to be guilty of that.
I will state at the outset that I take the full sovereignty of God in salvation as a simple Scriptural fact. There are too many texts indicating this to be so. Nevertheless, that is not to say that I prescribe in-toto to a particular model of how God acts in such a way. I believe that either Molinism or Calvinism might be true, and I lean heavily towards the latter, which is why I’ll take up the question, and compose a response.
This does not answer your direct question, but I think we must be careful to not place a particular theory of election above the Gospel itself. Everyone must have a model of election and predestination because they are biblical realities. What I mean by this is to say that God’s purpose revealed in the New Testament is to glorify Himself through His Son, and particularly as His Son was lifted up on the Cross, and then resurrected and glorified. This action on behalf of sinners is the grounds of all the redemptive work of God. Thus, it would be inconceivable for God to regenerate or convert someone apart from their seeing and recognizing this reality.
First, I think it is quite fine to say that God ordains the ends as well as the means to the end. And when I say means, I truly mean “means.” That is, that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because of God’s purpose to glorify Himself in Christ, is the eye-opening, heart-changing, regenerating Word that transforms hearts and minds. There is no regenerating, or effectual calling, or electing, or predestinating apart from Jesus Christ. While it is helpful to logically distinguish between these actions, and helpful to lay them out temporally (God did elect in eternity past, I believe), all these distinctions only get us so far. If we push them too far then we might end up breaking them, as you are, as if God acts on the human heart independent of the Gospel. The truth is that while a good Calvinist is going to give all the glory to God for the act of conversion, there is no such thing apart from the Gospel. The Gospel is the means because it is that message which opens the heart, it is the means because Jesus Christ is the One who draws people to Himself, it is the means because it is through the Gospel that God is glorified. Yes, the Gospel is the intellectual content which points the person towards the proper object of faith, but more than that, the Gospel is the transformative content which the Spirit uses to break through a hardened heart. What God has decided to do, He does through the Gospel not by pure command or fiat, but because the Gospel alone, by revealing what God is really like and what He has accomplished to save His people, has the drawing power to save the elect.
It simply does not follow that because God decided to do something in the past (election), and that He must open the heart (prepatory work / or regeneration), that the act of faith drawn out by Spirit-opened eyes to see the Gospel is not a real act or an unnecessary one. It is wrong, and at the root of many such logical missteps, to drive too sharp a wedge between these things. In other words, you are proceeding as if anyone of these things is salvation alone. Election is not the whole work of salvation, nor is regeneration, nor is conversion. Biblically, all of these are centered upon Jesus Christ, and all are necessary for God to be glorified, and for the elect to be saved.
Second, you are after the mechanics of conversion, and I don’t think we have such a thing tightly defined in the NT. I’m happy to say that in spite of all my attempts to understand the ordo salutis, I don’t think we are going to arrive at any Pauline equation for salvation mechanics. I’m not urging willful ignorance, but I’m saying that we may have to settle for the fair, but incomplete, light thrown on the mechanics of conversion. We know everything that has to be present (faith, repentance), and we know that God has to do a number of things (elect, call, regenerate, forgive, etc.), and we know that God does all of these by the power of the Spirit only through the Gospel.
As I’ve said before, I’m in the “Amazing Grace” camp of understanding God’s sovereignty in salvation. “I once was blind, but now I see…” So, how blind was I? Was I blind in one eye, or just color blind? If I was truly blind, how’d I end up seeing? By what power did I end up seeing? By my own? No, there was no good thing in me. So if I could not open my own eyes to see, then surely He must have, but did He do it so that I could merely see? Or was there something He wanted me to see? Yes, He wanted me to see Christ, and by that Christ crucified draw me to Himself.
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August 26, 2012 at 9:27 pm
Jason,
As far as your footnote about why doesn’t God regenerate upon the first hearing of the Gospel, I think that’s a red herring. Who’s to say? Why would that be a particularly good objection? Why can’t I turn that around on Arminians? You are seeking after knowledge that only God has, and you are trying to force conversions into a perfect pattern. I can think of several reasons why God may allow a person to hear the Gospel several times before it is effectual.
God may wish to teach them some lesson that will become apparent later on. For instance, God may want to impress upon them His mercy, and the radical grace that saved them, that they had been stiff-minded and hard-hearted until the Spirit broke through.
Or, God may be preparing them for some future work that the lessons of those repeated encounters are useful for.
Or, since God’s goal is to present all believers to be like the Lord Jesus, God may be disciplining them for some time, in some way, that shapes them later on to be more malleable to Himself.
Or, God may be doing something in the lives of the people who are sharing the Gospel with the person who is unregenerate at that point.
Of course, your instance is a very fine one to examine, but we can turn all this around, can’t we?
For instance, then, just what kind of grace is prevenient grace? Does it always accompany the Gospel? If it always accompanies the Gospel, then why wouldn’t a person, under an Arminian model, accept Christ the first time if they are the kind of person that God sees will accept Him? If it doesn’t always accompany the Gospel, then we kind of have a Calvinistic God again, right?
Just what exactly does prevenient grace do? How much of the effects of sin does it counteract? How much of the effects of sin does it have to counteract to be effective? When does prevenient grace do its work? Why does God apparently skip over some entire peoples/nations, bestowing prevenient grace upon them while neglecting to send a Gospel witness among them?
If God is objectively beautiful and Jesus is objectively glorious and true, how could any human being given a moment of true objectivity freed from the effects of sin and enabled by prevenient grace, reject Him? If they can reject Him in such a moment, then is the Gospel truly the power to save, is Jesus able to draw anyone to Himself? And if this prevenient grace is given to all humanity and Jesus is so objectively compelling, then why don’t all believe?
I think we are going to go around in circles on this one. I do not think this is decided by logic directly, but by what Scripture claims to teach.
Grace and peace… and I’m going to bed!
Cheers,
Chad
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August 28, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Michael Reyes,
I agree with the doctrine of total depravity. That’s one thing Calvinists and Arminians generally agree on.
Jason
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August 28, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Chad,
We are agreed on the full sovereignty of God. In no sense do we contribute to our salvation, and if God did not act, none of us would ever believe the Gospel.
You speak of the preaching of the Gospel as opening the elect-but-still-an-unbeliever’s heart. I can see how this fits with Arminianism (prevenient grace), but not Calvinism. On Calvinism, there is no spiritual life without regeneration, and as I understand it, regeneration is an instantaneous event. For what you are saying to be true would require that regeneration happen immediately before the Gospel is preached. Perhaps that is your view. If so, is that what you understand as happening to Lydia in the book of Acts when Luke tells us that God opened her heart to attend to the words of Paul? Was she regenerated, then heard the Gospel, and then believed?
I would dispute your “charge” that I am proceeding as if any one event (election, regeneration, faith) is salvation alone. I’m not. In my post I was merely pointing out that on Calvinism, nothing happens until God acts to regenerate. That being so, it seemed difficult to see how the preaching of the Gospel could be a real means to salvation since it, in itself, is incapable of producing a positive response from unbelievers in the same way that dead people are incapable of agreeing to go to the movies. It is only the act of God in regeneration that allows them to respond positively, and if it is God’s regenerative act alone that accomplishes this, I failed to see how evangelism was truly a means to the end of salvation.
I agree with you regarding the difficulty of uncovering the mechanics of salvation, and I think we both agree that it is better to think of it holistically. We are asking questions of the text that the text does not ask or answer itself. Unfortunately, it is the fragmentary nature of how the text deals with the issue of salvation that prompts those questions!
As for the footnote, I think you have offered a good response to that. God could have a good reason for waiting to regenerate someone until the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time they have heard the Gospel. As for how an Arminian would respond to the same issue, you raise a good question about whether or not prevenient grace is present every time the gospel is preached. I can’t say that it is, and that might explain why some people do not respond until after repeated Gospel presentations. But let’s say it is present each time. An Arminian can explain the delayed conversion by appealing to the condition of the person’s heart at the time. In previous times, they were not yet willing to submit to God whereas in the final presentation they were.
You asked, “Why does God apparently skip over some entire peoples/nations, bestowing prevenient grace upon them while neglecting to send a Gospel witness among them?” Since we are not addressing Arminianism, I will dodge this question and turn it back on you. 🙂 Why is it that God’s election is geographically based? Why are entire cultures not elected? It would seem to me that God’s election would be more evenly distributed among the people of the world. But Arminians can easily explain why entire cultures are not saved: no one has preached to them. You might say, “Calvinists could give the same response.” Not really, because we would expect for God to predestine preachers to preach in these areas so that those whom he has elected in these cultures could be saved. But no preachers go there because God has not elected them to salvation. Why?
Jason
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August 29, 2012 at 9:33 am
Hey Jason, how’s it going?
I’m in agreement with much of what Chad had to say.
You state, “On Calvinism, there is no spiritual life without regeneration, and as I understand it, regeneration is an instantaneous event. For what you are saying to be true would require that regeneration happen immediately before the Gospel is preached.”
Do you believe it would be fair to say that regeneration happens concurrent with the preaching of the Gospel? If this is true, then the notion that it “would require that regeneration happen immediately before the Gospel is preached” is not the only option.
It is the the word of God that is the “vehicle” the Holy Spirit uses to smash the barrier over the ears, that they may hear, to give light to the eyes so they may say see, and, as the example of Lydia gives us, opens the heart to pay attention to what is preached. The Lord used the Gospel Paul was preaching to Lydia to open her heart that she may believe what was further said by Paul. God can use the word to do this by His Spirit at any time during the Gospel presentation. James says “Of His own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” Peter says, “since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” The Spirit regenerates with the word of God, Paul says, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
In John, when Jesus is teaching about who he is, his relationship to the Father, his mission, and their proper response (eating his flesh and drinking his blood) it says:
“When many of the disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.”
Jesus says the flesh is no help at all, John lays the foundation for this teaching early on in his gospel by writing the children of God “were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” He says, “It is the Spirit who gives life” and he does this through the word to which he ascribes the qualities of spirit and life. But also notice that even though his words are spirit and life, “many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” Jesus explains that this ultimately happened because “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” God is sovereign over when He will penetrate the heart and hears with his word by His Spirit.
You are right, dead people can’t agree to go to the movies, but I bet if Jesus invited them they could. Just look at Lazarus, it is the word of the Lord that gives life, by the Spirit. He was dead when he heard the Lord. How is that possible? The word of the Lord opened his ears to hear.
Thanks for the good posts.
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August 29, 2012 at 10:44 am
In the ordo salutis there is an outward call and then there is an inward call (which I believe is being over looked here). This inward call can be a long process which in which God guides someone providentially to new birth using all types of means outward and inward.
Then there is regeneration which is the point one loves God more than the world. This point marks an absolute break between the time the person was spiritually dead and when they were brought to spiritual life.
We must remember:
“So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11.
God’s word is at work in the world always working beyond our perception and the word of God is not mere words but they are supernatural.
“It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63.
Belief and regeneration are simultaneous in time but belief is logically dependant on regeneration.
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August 30, 2012 at 3:29 pm
James,
For me, I don’t see much difference between saying regeneration would have to happen “immediately before” the Gospel is preached, and saying it takes place “concurrently” with the preaching of the Gospel…unless you see “concurrent” as being at some point after the Gospel presentation began. But if Calvinism is true, it’s as though the unbeliever’s spiritual hearing is on mute until God’s act of regeneration. So if “concurrent” means, say, five minutes into the presentation of the Gospel, then it seems that the person will not be perceptive to the message until five minutes into it.
I hear what you are saying about the power of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel to compel people toward Christ, and I agree because I am an Arminian. My point is that this doesn’t fit a Calvinistic view in which there is no spiritual life, and people are not capable of responding positively to God until after regeneration takes place. So if regeneration takes place after the preaching of the Gospel, then that is the point in time in which someone will be receptive to the Gospel. If regeneration takes place at the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel, then they will be spiritually receptive from the very beginning…and indeed, will always respond positively to the Gospel by placing their faith in Christ. But in Calvinism, regeneration and regeneration alone is what makes someone spiritually receptive to the Gospel. So could a dead person go to the movies if Jesus asked them? Yes, as long as He regenerated them first!
Jason
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August 31, 2012 at 1:10 am
The usage here of regeneration seems wrong to me. Regeneration means to be regenerated, i.e. re-born, commonly said as “born again” or “born anew”. The Bible’s typical word is paliggenesia.
As a Scriptural phrase, it always encompasses entering the Kingdom of God and the saving of the soul (e.g. John 3:3-5 and Titus 3:3-5). The Spirit, as evidenced by these two verses, is chiefly involved in the process.
How is it possible that God can regenerate someone (which would mean that He saved them) prior to them hearing the Gospel message (which is the power of God to save – Romans 1:16) in order for them to receive the very Gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)?
It’s cart before the horse. The Spirit must be received as a gift (Acts 2:39). Reception of the Spirit comes after belief in Jesus Christ (Acts 19:1-6 with Ephesians 1:13-14).
It’s not possible that the Spirit regenerates a person prior to hearing the Gospel, because the Spirit doesn’t actually enter into a person prior to obedience to the Gospel (Acts 5:32, 10:34-48), which, once obeyed, and only then, does the actual regeneration occur. There aren’t two regenerations in the life of a saint.
Take the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 as a case study. There you have a man (Simon Peter) preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to an audience. The audience hears the Gospel, and many, many people, upon hearing that they’ve crucified their Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36), cry out “What shall we do?” (Acts 2:37).
At this point, their hearts were most certainly open, since “pricked in their hearts” actually means to be run through, as with a sword. This pricking didn’t occur prior, however. It occurred at the end of Peter’s sermon. Then, and only then, were they ready to obey.
We see later that 3,000 souls were added to the church (i.e. saved that day). These three thousand were so added only because they received the word with gladness (Acts 2:41). Indeed, many of these newly saved souls were just previously mocking the disciples and mistaking the work of the Spirit as a work of the flesh (drunkenness – Galatians 5:21). So it’s clear these 3,000 were not regenerated by the Spirit of God until after the preacher preached and they, upon hearing the Word, obeyed the Apostles as commissioned by Christ.
And thus was fulfilled the idea found here:
1 Corinthians 3:9,
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
laborours together: συνεργός (synergos); a companion worker, i.e. a fellow worker.
We work with God in the saving of the soul, not as the agents who cause someone’s salvation, but by being those who plant and water (1 Corinthians 3:1-8)., i.e. disseminating the Gospel through preaching and bearing witness of the Truth.
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April 29, 2013 at 3:41 pm
The following site has a go at holding calvinism and arminianism up to the light of the bible : http://jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.htm
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April 21, 2014 at 12:05 pm
to me if Calvinism seems to be saying salvation is for elect, by the elect and of the elect – kind of thing. Let us come back to the basic issue: evangelism seems to be relevant only for the elect and those who are not elect will be damned no matter how much we preach to them. Preaching to the lost soul seems to be preaching to the lost elect souls. Those who are not elect were, is, and will be damned for ever, no matter!
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July 1, 2015 at 6:33 am
I think my job is to evangelize about Gospel, I will not put deep thought on if the person elect or not but I will think that God is using me some how. I really tried to evangelize to my father but he was not getting it. I left my home town and he became ill and I heard my church baptized him and he repented his sin before he died. I don’t think I made him choose God or made him became christian, It was God’s grace. You can wait in the dessert all day long for rain, pray and pray… If God does not allow it, it will never rain. We are really don’t know who is in Christ and who is not. We saw the fruit and try to determine. We should evangelize no matter what. It’s our duty. When we evangelize it make us closer to God too. Because we are speaking about him. We speak loved ones the most and makes us happy too. I know it’s hard try not to think or see but sometimes we need to think we are just a human and we have limits.
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June 16, 2018 at 9:36 pm
Just found this post and agree with you. More importantly, when Calvinists attempt evangelism are they honest in their conversations? Do they tell the person upfront that he is either elected or damned and can do nothing about it? Or do they leave unconditional election out until a later date? Kinda like a car salesman telling you that the car is will last for years or break down right outside the lot; that he doesn’t know the condition of the car; and that you have no recourse if it is junk! I’d bet folks would flock to that car lot if they needed a new car!
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June 17, 2018 at 4:46 pm
Terry:
Calvinism, like all religions, derives from a person and cannot possibly be considered a guide for society. The 5 points of Calvinism are formed, as usual, without reason, interprets the bible without following the cardinal rules, uses a flawed philosophy of predestination, adheres to the ancient ignorance of guilt dogma and any person void of discretion could not possibly behave in other way than robots of protocol without discretionary insight, witness the obsessive behavior of wailing lunatic hoards reduced to groveling for a chance to lick their cult leader’s feet.
Sixteenth century Europe was a world replete with ignorance and superstition especially because religion was the power base of rulers and Holy Scriptures the source on which the ignorance and superstition thrived. To get a sense of the era in which Calvin lived; well, it was a time when the earth was flat and a time when heretics were burned at the stake. Calvin himself leading a church for the city of Geneva denounced a Spaniard for his views of the Trinity and the City Council burned Michael Servetus at the stake for heresy.
Ignorance lives long and dies old.
When Calvin died on May 27, 1564, Galileo Galilei was 3 months and 12 days old. As Galileo grew he became a controversial figure because he was an advocate for heliocentrism which meant the earth was not the centre of the universe. Fifty years later the matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was “foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture.” Galileo was himself convicted of heresy by the Catholic Church, recanted to save his life and remained under house arrest for the rest of his life.
We might reasonably ask, can anything good come out of the 1600/1700 century. Yes, progress was made. Other cultural traditions held on, not the least of which was religion with its most tenacious teeth. The various reforms and transitions of religion rose up like many other disciplines. Nevertheless religion and its dog, ignorance, held on. Christianity has almost everything going its way – culture and art for the last two millennia have been subject to its influence. It is in the home, it permeates society, and it recruits young.
While one refutes Calvinism, Calvinists can take some comfort in the fact that they are not the only group. Every denominational branch from the Catholic Church Tree and Protestanism including the Tree itself has been corrupted by ancient influences of ignorance, supernaturalism, superstition, power, and money. None are immune.
When studying the bible there are two cardinal rules that Christians need to know and to follow but which Christians do not know and cannot follow. Why? Because bible scholars will not allow them to have that knowledge.
This was like the Pharisees. The pharisaical practice of teaching the Old Testament was to hide the common sense cardinal rule knowledge from the masses to preserve their authority could: the Pharisees knew the cardinal rules but hid that knowledge from the masses so that the masses would not have knowledge that could be used to usurp the superiority of the pseudo professional preachers, priests, pastors, prophets and popes; the parasites, lest their authority to rule be catechized.
And about this deceit did both Isaiah and Jesus declare:
“Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans……., who do their work in darkness and think, “Who sees us? Who will know?” Isaiah 29:15
In other words, “Doom to you! You pretend to have the inside track.
You shut God out and work behind the scenes,
Plotting the future as if you knew everything,
acting mysterious, never showing your hand.
You have everything backward!
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” Matt 23:13
In other words:
Frauds!
“I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.
And here are the two cardinal rules:
1: Read the words with a natural, not a supernatural slant for you cannot understand the supernatural notion of authors; it is from imagination that in the scheme of mankind, is as superficial as a child’s unknown boogieman. Do not read the bible as a child and expect to understand it as an adult.
2: There is zilch; none, and no such thing, as “the word of God” for no God has ever talked to man; neither Isis, Buddha, Zeus, Brahma, Apollo, Horus or Ik Onkar. But many authors have talked to and talked about, their imaginary caricatures. The best that man can say is that authors write on behalf of the character of his own devise.
Follow these two cardinal rules and your mind will open to receive understanding.
The religious zealots in Isaiah’s day and Jesus’s day refused to give this key of knowledge to their congregation and to this very day: “So long as the priest and the professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is Truth? pontiuspilate friedrichnietzsche
THE GOOD NEWS:
Religion is exponentially diminishing and its end is coming and will soon be replaced by the spirit that permeates humanity but which has been stifled by the traditions of ignorance and superficial imaginations to fulfill it destiny and what will the new Religion have as a guiding pillar? The standard will be written “on the forehead” and on the heart( metaphorically, “in the mindset”) of every man, woman and child, This above all:
“To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou cannot then be false to any man.” (shakespeare’s character polonius – This kernel of wisdom is now taken as Shakespeare’s own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.)
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November 9, 2018 at 3:52 am
amazingly the Bible simply states … John 3:16 … whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life… it doesn’t even say for God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten son so that the elect may believe!!
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November 9, 2018 at 8:30 am
Ernest:
From God’s point of view if he had one consider this. Even though the bible does not say For God so loved the elect, it does say for God so loved the world…..and from God’s point of view the “world” in reality is the “elect” not particular denominations to be sure but the world is the elect and there are scriptures to back it up:,
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
His desire being that no one should perish
AND
For all who are led by the Spirit of Good are sons of Good
And who are the elect?
As many as are led by the spirit of Good. Not even a144,000 but ……..As many as…….
As far as Calvinism goes and evangelization. Predestination is just another word for the fact that all men, generally speaking, are led to search for their Source; it’s like the adopted son and daughter who never knew their Mom or Dad and many an adoptee spend a lifetime seeking for the fulfillment they lack; it’s why we are out into space looking for the source to answer the great questions Who, What, Where, When, Why and How.
All religions derive from a person and there are persons who believe that they know the truth but in fact nobody does, the closest person to ever come to the truth is me but I never started any religion because I am merely a composite of the whole human race, a microcosom and every person can only say they know the truth from their perspective, that’s psychology 101.
The only person who comes closest to truth from your perspective is you and you can go down the line and everybody holds the same conviction in knowledge or in belief in the same sense. Only from individual presumptive perspective can the expression or understanding of truth be understood because everyone is a microcosm of humanity and s/he can only express that which s/he knows which is little, not what they believe, which is much, humongous even, because belief is imagination gone wild, unfiltered and unrestrained.
And then there is the psychology of ego that leads everyone subject to its boldness to evangelize trying to convince everybody else that their truth is better than other truth and so on and so forth does the world go around in circles looking for the end of the string.
To give you an example: The verse that you mention about “…….God so loved the world….even that scripture was written by a person trying to convince(evangelize) their belief…whatever you read in the bible is the same; it was all written by a person(s), without exception. No paranormal supernatural fingers write on walls except in man’s imagination,,,,At that very moment, the fingers of a human hand appeared and began writing on the lamp-illumined, whitewashed wall of the palace. When the king saw the disembodied hand writing away, he went white as a ghost, scared out of his wits. Daniel 5:5.
We have all seen such things at magic shows or on television and magic was an integral part of religion in the days of the ancients.
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