According to Daniel Wallace:
The total number of catalogued Greek New Testament manuscripts now stands at 128 papyri, 322 majuscules, 2926 minuscules, and 2462 lectionaries, bringing the grand total to 5838 manuscripts.
CSNTM has also “discovered” two more minuscule manuscripts in the summer of 2013 on our European expeditions which will most likely receive their Gregory-Aland numbers in due time.
Thinking to Believe 
August 26, 2013 at 11:22 pm
And this is important for what reason? I assume you somehow conclude because of the preponderance of the manuscript evidence that the Bible is true? There is still not one word of scripture before 250BC. And as you know the providence of all but perhaps several of the books by Paul are in question, never mind the interpolations.
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August 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm
Kerry, you assume incorrectly. The fact that the NT is the best-attested historical document known to man only speaks to the textual fidelity of the NT. It says nothing about whether it is true. That is a separate argument to be made. But the fact that we have a reliable text is very important, and shouldn’t be brushed aside simply because there is more to the story.
You need to brush up on your knowledge of NT manuscripts. There are, in fact, at least 13 manuscripts before 250 AD. There are four from the 2nd century: p32, p46, p64+67, p66. And then there is p77, p103, and 0189 from the late 2nd or early 3rd century. On top of this, six additional papyri were discovered a couple of years ago that have not yet been catalogued, which have been dated to the second century.
We have manuscripts containing parts of 3/4 gospels, 9 of Paul’s letters, Acts, Hebrews, and Revelation all in the second century alone. 43% of NT verses can be found in these manuscripts. There are 3x as many manuscripts for the NT within 200 years of its composition than the average Greco-Roman text has within a 2000 year period.
But let’s say none of this were true. Let’s say that we didn’t have a single manuscript of any NT book until after 250 AD. What would follow from that?
Jason
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August 27, 2013 at 12:04 am
You missed my point….before 250 BC there is not one word of scripture. The OT on which the NT is based has a gap of some 1200 years as far as I can recall. Clearly it was cobbled together around 250.
I also do not need to brush up on NT manuscripts as you stated. My study of this issue is one of the weaknesses in the Bible that caused me to leave the faith. How many of the MS before 250 AD are in the original language? How many before 200 are mere scraps with a few words? The vast majority of MS were written by the Church that controlled what everyone read.
I am a student of the Constantine era and find Eusebius complicit in the fabrication of much of the NT. The fact is, Christianity should have been called Paulianity because he is the one that taught his particular brand of religion which disagreed with whoever wrote the gospels.
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August 27, 2013 at 6:48 am
I’m still waiting for the published material on the MSS findings that include the first century gospel of Mark.
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August 27, 2013 at 11:00 pm
Kerry,
What I missed is that you said 250BC, not AD250. I assumed you were talking about AD since this post is about the number of NT manuscripts, not about the OT.
You claim there is not one word of Scripture before 250BC. You make the leap of logic that since there are no manuscripts of the OT that date before 250BC (a point I’ll address in a second), the OT must have been written around 250BC. How does that follow? Let’s apply this to other ancient texts. Would you say we have the works of Aristotle? I hope not! Given your logic, Aristotle surely did not write Metaphysics or Virtues and Vices since we do not have one word of Aristotle prior to AD 1100, some 1450 years after Aristotle supposedly wrote all the stuff attributed to him. Aristotle’s works must have been created in the late Medieval Ages!
And what about Plato? Same thing. We don’t have a scrap of evidence of his supposed writings until AD 895. Surely these are Medieval creations as well. The principle you are employing is too skeptical, and would cast doubt on every ancient text we have because all of them have great gaps between their original composition and the first extant manuscripts. Ancient manuscripts are few because time has a way of destroying them. The principle here is that just because the extant textual evidence we have for a composition comes much later, does not mean the composition was composed around the time of our first extant manuscript.
But is your claim even true? Almost, but not exactly. We do have a few extant verses from Numbers 6 written on two silver amulet scrolls dated to the 7th-6th centuries BC.
As for your questions about the NT…. All of the manuscripts I named are Greek manuscripts, so they are in the original languages. And you are right that some of our earliest manuscripts are scraps. We would expect that given the kind of material they used (papyri). But as I pointed out in my comment, they’re not all scraps. 15 NT books are attested to in the 2nd century Greek manuscripts, containing parts or all of 43% of all NT verses. That’s a lot of content very early on. Remember, you need to compare the preservation of the NT to any other ancient text, and when you do, the NT is running circles around them both in terms of the number of manuscripts, and how closely they date to the time of composition.
You claimed, “The vast majority of MS were written by the Church that controlled what everyone read.” What’s your evidence? And are you trying to claim that the church changed the text? Everything I have read about the early manuscripts contradicts both claims. About half of the manuscripts are written in what I’ll call “average” Greek. They were not copied by professionals. The others were copied by professionals, but even these were not elegant copies. It was not until post 325 when we start seeing elegant copies of the NT being produced by scriptoriums, because that is when the Roman government began funding such a thing. Prior to then, Christianity was illegal, and all copying had to be done by individuals who were willing to do it. There was no church hierarchy in charge of this. You are imposing a later view of the church on the early church.
Eusebius fabricated the NT? This is laughable? Are you not aware of all of the church fathers’ quotations of the NT prior to Eusebius? These quotations span the empire. Your theory is impossible and falsified by the data.
I won’t even get into the whole Paul vs. Jesus thing.
You make a lot of claims, but you are short on evidence. I’ll be interested to see what sort of evidence you can gather for your claims, or if you are willing to interact with my arguments (rather than just ignoring them as so many skeptics are wont to do).
Jason
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August 28, 2013 at 1:53 am
Jason, You are parroting nothing but the information from Josh McDowell and Strobel, which interestingly enough, I one time taught! But I will not get into a long dissertation here as there are others who have spoken much more eloquently on this topic….Bart Ehrman. I know you must have read his books. I find his scholarship thorough for the most part. Or maybe you are familiar with the blog of Dr. Robert M. Price. Both these men are steeped in Biblical studies and have drawn very different conclusions from you. These men had the courage to follow the evidence and not the desires of their hearts.
You like McDowell and Strobel are quick to show how “early” the NT MSS are but fail when tasked to do that to the other inspired work called the OT. And do you really think the ORIGINAL NT was in the greek language of the discovered NT MSS?
The other issue you miss is the process by which these 27 books were selected from the plethora of books and letters circulating among the “christians” of that day. It was political not inspirational.
You are correct that it was not until under Constantine that the elegant copies are produced….so what does that prove? It just demonstrates that the entity with the money produced bibles for the Empire. They destroyed any competing religious text that they could find, which is why so few of them are left to us today.
I will make one more comment, as the christians were burning every book not supportive of their narrative, the Muslims were saving and translating many of the ancient works which is why we still have some of them today.
For any of your readers sincerely interested in analysis of the christian canon, then they must read Ehrman and Price, among many many other biblical scholars who left the faith after being overwhelmed by the evidence.
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August 28, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Kerry since youve read the supposedly brilliant Ehrman, make your/his case. Jason has run circles around you.Or are you doing like Ehrman does by stating that you are just throwing out a few tidbits for consideration and holding back “the real proofs”. When in fact he gives all he has (& its stretched beyond belief) & actually has no more, & I was once an agnostic but was overwhelmed by the evidence.
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August 28, 2013 at 8:47 pm
First, you put words in my mouth regarding Ehrman. I find his scholarship compelling and thought provoking, and a much more elegant and plausible narrative for the Bible. There are many more I could have mentioned such as John Loftus, who is also well studied in biblical matters.
Secondly, Jason’s whole point is that there are so many MSS, that the bible must be special in some way. But he makes the same error as all other apologists. He wants us to be awed by the 1000’s of MSS. The truth is, there is not one book of the NT before 180 AD. Actually there is a good post on this from a friend…
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.tw/2013/04/the-illusive-search-for-truth-in.html
I know none of this will change your mind. There is no reasoning with those that need to believe. I compare this to the many apologists who have signed a statement of faith for their jobs and then expect us to believe that they are objective in their conclusions. Ridiculous.
As to Eusebius, yes my theory is just that but it is no less possible then the leaps of faith a christina must make to believe in talking snakes, talking donkeys, woldwide flood, dead people walking around Jerusalem, etc. The fact that church fathers quoted a few verses only demonstrates that some of the verses that ended up in the Bible were floating around. There were also other quotations by the church fathers from Apostle of Peter, Hermes and others, so are we to believe that these statements also prove the validity of those books? You will find a justification as to why those books were not inspired but again, that is just speculation on your part.
The fact is, I AM NOT SHORT ON EVIDENCE. It only takes a few clicks of the mouse to find an abundance of evidence clearly demonstrating the serious problems with canonicity, and development of MSS, both OT and NT.
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September 8, 2013 at 6:31 am
Kerry
You said,
Ummm…What other book or books have that many early manuscripts? If you can’t find any other ancient book then the NT is SPECIAL.
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September 8, 2013 at 1:55 pm
Yes I suppose the NT is special if you consider that no other book had the explicit support of the corrupt Empire to produce it. No other book was hand selected from the 100’s of possible books in circulation at that time all claiming to be from the hand of Apostles or others close to apostles. No other book allowed the wicked, political, oppressive church to claim heavenly authority in such a fashion as to keep the population ignorant and impoverished, with instruction given on how to live by the pathetic holy men supposedly sanctioned from on high. No book condemned people to hell for not believing precisely who the clergy interpreted the passages. No holy book ever taught subjugation of women and endorsement slavery.
Yes it is a special book, but not for the reasons you want to believe.
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September 9, 2013 at 1:19 am
Its a special book all right . it still hasnt passed away & wont either just like Jesus said, even though the Roman State tried repeatedly to wipe it out , which you actually incorrectly claim produced it!—– Im going to shoot straight with you Kerry as you dont know me & “sonny” is only a nickname. Im an American totally self supporting missionary / evangelist on Mindanao,( Ive never asked nor received support from any individual or group anywhere including the us govt with no flush toilet nor hot shower personal vehicle or motorcycle. Im totally independent & not tied to any specific denomination nor “undenominational “group either..I operate on the Philippines poorest island mindanao. ok nuff said about that . Kerry my friend I dont know if you were ever actually in relationship with the Lord Jesus or not.—- Im now 61 but when I was 19 I was an agnostic & God spoke to me in an audible voice & an invisible big right hand pushed me down in the bed where I was balling & because of what was happening challenged God that if He existed then I truly wanted to know it. & God spoke in loud clear English- “If youll serve me this will never happen to you”-I wont bore you with the details unless you ask –Anyway ive seen a lost man that was dead be raised back to life in the Name of Jesus -Ive seen a genuinely demon posessed woman experience the power of God. (thats just 1 example im focusing on)-.Ive seen not mere subjective claimed symptoms but an actual crushed foot i saw for example & after prayer in the name of jesus ( & the other requirements of scrip also met) & opening of my eyes saw that foot absolutely normal in shape color & instant ability to do exactly what the other foot could do.—-More importantly though Iv seen people forgiven of their sin & their lives be changed for the better. I minister in some areas controlled by Communist rebels & have seen the Lord prove his faithfulness over & over.( the mountains). In the cities I minister at 4 square, Assemblies of God, Jesus is Lord,& United Pentecostal churches & lots of independent groups–as long as they will not impeed me telling about Jesus ill be glad to help & dont want an offering —-.Kerry God is so good. I dont think God is real in all humility I absolutely KNOW it . I dont know if your mind is totally set now against the Lord now or not. IF its not 100% set against him Ide be honored to hear your thoughts. Sonny
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September 9, 2013 at 8:48 am
Thank you for your thoughts. I remain unconvinced. I spent 50 years in the faith. My father was a pastor. I have been on missions trips to the “lost” many times. I have even been to your country and to Mindanao. I also claimed to “see miracles” when I needed to see them to bolster my faith. Sadly, none of these supposed miracles are documented by any credible evidence. I might as well believe in UFO’s, Bigfoot, take your pick.
I spent years in research and study trying to understand why I believed as I did, and the conclusion was that it was the faith taught to me as a child by my family and community. Had I been born in Saudi Arabia, I would have been Muslim…in India, undoubtedly I would have been Hindu. I came to belief before I had any ability to understand the options and to weigh competing religious beliefs.
As nothing can shake your personal experiences and your need to believe in a supreme being, so too nothing can move me now into believing…well I suppose if Jesus came to me physically and I could document that it was not a vision, then maybe I would believe. But my friend, the god of the bible especially the OT is not the kind of god I would want my children to follow.
I have no truck with your faith belief as long as it does not require me to pay homage to it. In my country, all citizens are required to subsidize religious belief in the form of preferential tax treatment to anyone calling themselves a church. Why their all-powerful god would need my money is beyond me, but apparently he is not as wealthy as they want to believe.
Keep your faith it it provides comfort and a salve for the cares of this world. I will take my journey apart from superstition.
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September 9, 2013 at 7:17 pm
kerry
You said,
Please site your source. Why would an empire produce a book then persecute those who follow it? Also, why would the followers be willing to die for the main person that the book was about? You are right, it is special. It has gotten the focus of countless literary, historical, archaeological, and theological scholars and as time marches on it stands strong. More vetted evidence appears with the passing of time by secular scholars.
Hand selected? Please… source it or it didn’t happen! Instead it is the only book with so many manuscripts from the time of the writes themselves or within a couple of generations of those writers.
Wicked, political, oppressive church… her you confuse the truth of a book with the wickedness of people. If you read said book you would know it did not stand for the evils that the wicked catholic church stood for. You are smarter than this… it is like saying since the USA has gone off its rockers then the constitution is worthless. You write as if you have a bitter agenda. Why? If it is all meaningless then why bother to waste your precious time speaking against another persons path? After all if you are right then you only have this time…
Have you even read the quran?
No other book… is even closed to be compared to the Word of God. It’s history is accurate, it’s promises are true, even our modern scholars are finding more and more things that give it’s words a stronger sounding board.
Thanks for your time kerry. In my world view truth matters because it is truth. In the atheist or agnostic world view what does it matter?
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September 9, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Your questions indicate that you did not read any of the debunkingchristianity site that I mentioned above. Had you read it, you would not ask the questions again.
Your questions also calls into question your understanding of Constantine and the Roman Empire and their printing of the first 50 Bibles after the Council of Nicaea. Every text in disagreement with the Empirical position was burned or otherwise destroyed. No citation is necessary here as this is very very well known.
And just how early are the earliest MSS? Please don’t quote me Strobel or McDowell…I know them well.
I speak up because christians do not keep their religion to themselves. I support through tax exemptions your activities. You want to teach my children YUEC in school and pray to a sectarian god. that is why I must speak out.
I apologize for lack of clarity in one section. I meant was a true Holy Book would not teach such atrocities, as does the Koran and the Bible. Yes, as part of my research for truth I read the Koran…very difficult by the way.
Finally, form where does your information come that the apostles all died for the cause. Certainly not from the Bible. What has happened here is what always happens with people who do not do their own research. They just repeat over and over again what Josh McDowell has said, as misguided as that may be. You see the only place that most of the stories come from are books that the early church found heretical, and yet the church today carefully selects those stories it wants to perpetuate. As you have done. Please give me your source. You cannot, but yet you continue to tell that white lie.
It was truth that drove me from the Bible. Please read for your self and take the Outsider’s test of Faith on debunkingchristianity website if you are so confident of your position and religion.
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September 11, 2013 at 2:11 pm
kerry
You mean you are not an expert in these matters? Why should you refer me to a third party in your pursuit of truth? You are doing the exact same thing that you accuse Jason and every other commenter. Please provide your own arguments because your games are getting old. You’ve only supplied empty rhetoric. First you stated the NT is not special, then you conceded that argument with special clauses. Only, to step back when challenged that the quran supports worse things you change your stance completely and say, “I apologize for lack of clarity in one section. I meant was a true Holy Book would not teach such atrocities, as does the Koran and the Bible.” I doubt your intellectual integrity. For a man that says muslims kept the rejected manuscripts alive then to criticize their holy book… sounds to me you on accept what you want as long as it fits into your world view.
Truth according to whom? Who made your rules and truth?
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September 11, 2013 at 4:53 pm
I have never claimed to be an expert in any area, which is why I am widely read in many disciplines. My arguments are presented, and while I could take the time to list every single point, it has already been eloquently done by a friend as I indicated. You have not responded to those arguments and only want to try to corner me for some reason.
I did not step back on the challenge, I only clarified. No true holy book, whether Koran or Bible would permit such teachings. Jesus could have put to rest many of these things but he did not. He supported the teachings of the OT, which as you must know was the only scripture he could refer to during his time.
And where do you read that the Muslims kept the rejected MSS alive. My point was that even after the church destroyed as many works from antiquity as they could find, the muslims were busy translating many of these works for the ancient Greeks and early Roman period. They did not preserve the OT or any NT manuscripts. They did not need to as the Church was busy adding to those MSS and creating their own narrative.
My world view was probably the same as you for most of my life. After 3 years of intensive study, I came to the conclusion that most, if not all of what I believed was wrong, and built solely on faith not evidence. My interest was not to become an atheist, but to clearly understand why I believed what I believed. It was an uncomfortable journey and the results were not what I had anticipated. So, no I do not accept whatever fits my world view, but I do follow the evidence of which your religion has none.
Please take the Outsiders Test of Faith if you believe so strongly that you are correct. You will find that the same reasons for which you dismiss other religions apply to your religion if you can see it for what it is worth.
finally, I would encourage you to read some other critical thinkers who have been down the same road as you and have different answers. My friend Bruce Gerencser a former fundamentalist Pastor writes on a blog and he is most balanced and fair.
http://brucegerencser.net
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September 12, 2013 at 8:36 pm
The greatly repeated proposition that the NT was grossly corrupted by multiple spurious additions is a theoretical assumption & a false conclusion (excepting Jn. 5:7 which was done far later) reached when one has never seriously considered the historical record or the insights of scripture but instead are fed a carefully constructed theory of liberal scholars that dishonestly leaves out those first 2 mentioned pillars. The historical fact is that both charlitans and many of the highly acclaimed “big guns” of early Christianity actually apostasized in varying degrees by blending hyper -popular Greek philosophy with scripture. This is exactly why the charlitan Marcion DELETED Lukes account of the bodily resurrection of Christ. By the suffocatingly universal influence Plato: flesh, being physical, simply could not have been glorified! Said Gnosticism. His Gnostic predisposition also led him to REMOVE 3 of Pauls epistles. Irenaeus tells us that there were others besides him who were “mutilating ” the scriptures. That is -They were not ADDING, but rather (like Marcion) DELETING parts of scripture that CLASHED WITH THE INCREASINGLY ACCEPTED ( at least by “Christian”scholars of the day) IMPLICATIONS OF GREEK PHILOSOPHY. The apostle Paul prophetically warned of apostasy among the leadership that would begin after his death.( “Rank & file ” Christians were as a whole far less often deceived by Gnosticism). Paul warned the Corinthians of false epistles were circulating even before his martydom. In “Which Bible” on p 193 Dr Shrivener stated “It is no less true to fact than paradoxical in sound that the worst corruptions to which the NT has ever been subjected, originated within 100 years after it was composed.” These corruptions were not falsely added arguementations to the manuscripts that the Lord Jesus was divine, but rather were falsely removing /deleting portions of scripture that clashed with Platoism. The MAN Jesus also being GOD in the flesh is the most common target of gnostic editors, Paul had also warned about 2 who were teaching that the resurrection of the righteous was already over & could not have seen by human eyes being merely a metaphor. This also reflects how powerfully the degree which Gnosticism had already penetrated.
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September 12, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Another catagory of enemies to the scriptures besides apostate early scholars was the leadership of the very state. In 161 AD Marcus Aurelius ( morphed into a virtual saint by Hollywood’s “Gladiator”), actually ordered the scriptures stomped out, that is deleted in full ! Not “added to”, but TAKEN FROM- completely! The scripture tells about Jesus & who He really is a very real Satan doesn’t like it ! Years before Satan used the Sanhedrin to forbid the name of Jesus from being glorified anymore by the apostles. When that body ceased to be Satan used apostates & the state itself . When the Roman state fell there was another religious powerhouse on the scene, & led by Gregory, nearly 600 earlier translations were ordered destroyed. Later the scriptures would be forbidden by the “church” again & then later still by Communism. Today we see Christs deity opposed by yet another round of unbelieving scholars. We also see another major religion at work .This one says if you believe Jesus was a prophet its fine. But if you say He is LORD then you will either convert or were going to chop your head off! & they also maintain that the Bible was altered by ADDITIONS affirming Christs deity.
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September 12, 2013 at 9:20 pm
As for Marcion, he was followed by Tatian & his harmony of the gospels tainted by Gnosticism & causing a bishop of Syria to throw out 200 copies.-The people rejected the Jnostic tainted junk, & thats the main reason some we have mss not as worn out that have the deletions. The rank & file rejected them just as today they reject todays “higher” criticism. By 200 AD Plotinus of Rome went all out in merging Plato’s teachings with scripture, which we now call “Neoplatonism”.
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September 12, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Just a quick question. What Scripture in particular are you referring to under Marcus Aurelius? As far as I know, the Scripture known by most christians was not approved until under Constantine and the Council of Nicaea…325 AD. There were many many letters circulating among the various communities at that time including works like Shepherd of Hermas (written by two resurrected ghosts, Charinus and Lenthius), the Missive of Barnabas and the Odes of Solomon, which carried as much weight as any other letter in circulation, and were originally approved by the Council.
And I guess, one more question, when was the ending to the Gospel of Mark added? It is not in the oldest MSS. This seems like an addition not a deletion.
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September 12, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Clement of Alexandria from around 200 is yet another that Ehrman & company ignore. His teaching that as God (supposedly) given the Jews salvation by the law, so too He supposedly had given the Greeks salvation by philosophy. He too was obviously not interested in anything that would have clashed with Greek Wisdom of the World spouted by the “wise men” of the world. So in effect , scripture was brought down as no higher that human philosophy. And so we see apostasy taking place (not to be confused with the apostasy predicted in our own time) that is reflected in the fact that books & tracts were written warning that pagan fashions & immodesty have become common. By around 225 AD the “church” had invented infant baptism & confused it with salvation. Nontheless there were still many who stayed faithful to the earliest teachings & the deity of Christ.
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September 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Kerry my friend -I would say this :Scripture began around 1450 BC. ( You may say a couple hundred years later ), The Psalms were more scripture & added roughly 950 BC. The prophets were more scripture & added over a very broad period of time, Now ——Scripture existing & scripture being approved or “officialized” by a council especially one whose members have strayed quite far FROM scripture are 2 very different things!!! Now we have no historic records as to exactly when the book of Jeremiah for example was approved & recommended by the priestly leadership of Israel. His work being scripture was NOT dependent on them !—- And thats a KEY point! They had actually opposed his message ! In Jesus’day Gods people had the scripture! & every single even half significant doctrine in the NT can be found there! We could literally go through the list ! — I admit I dont know exactly what year Matthew or Galatians, or James was written. Nor can I say how long it took for them to be available to church ministers at the opposite end of the empire, just like I cant say same for Ruth in its day ! But just like the bishop in Syria threw out the diatasserion so too he had obviously approved (on a smaller scale than the grand councils) sufficient if not all scripture that gave him the basis to know that these other works were spurious. Now I know that didnt always happen. Hermas’ work “The Sheperd” you cited was not kept out of the church at Rome but then the bishop of Rome Pius was his brother. Perhaps after he retired in 155AD his successor put a disaproval on it. Now only 2 years after 155 you have the Peshitta translation so there had to be scripture it was translated from years before the persecution of Marcus Aurelius began.
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September 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm
Also the mere fact that we have record of Marcus -that he was a devout Stoic. founded by Zeno.& killed Justin Martyr in 155 & began all out persecution in161 which included an order to kill all Christians & destroy their writings means they had the scripture, even as Gods people have ALWAYS had the scripture.
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September 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm
My friend, you take a great leap of faith on your dating. Can you source me one document that has any verse from the OT before 250BC? That leaves a gap of about 1200 years using your date. This is sufficient enough time to build in myth and other fictitious histories. All of the dates you give for various books are just guesses without hard evidence. And what Council approved the OT as scripture? Was that not done even after the NT had been approved or in formation. Many years have passed here.
And, just what are the “scriptures” that Marcus is destroying? In that day they (NT) were not yet considered SCRIPTURE. Only the OT had any designation along those lines, but Marcus could have been seeking to erase all of the some 300 works that were potential religious books which the church later considered.
I know you are aware of this as well, but the Muslims tell the same story about how christianity tried to destroy their holy book, but yet, it exists, proving that god is protecting his word.
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September 13, 2013 at 1:20 am
kERRY: As for Marks’ “ending”. The issue with Mark fits perfectly with what Ive laid out backed by scripture, history & a comparison of the incredibly numerous Majority Mss (demonstrating the acceptance of it by the “rank & file “Christians) to those edited by the Gnostic “scholars” of Alexandria of which Origen 185-254 was the most accomplished.but whose Mss werent read ,smuggled, wept upon, passed back & forth & therefore had to be recopied far less often & thus are older. So the older handfull of more Gnostic sounding mss lack verses 15 to 20. Or is it that Christians were the deceivers & added these verses?—First lets note the SUBJECT of them. They are about The Lords BODILY resurrection ! power over Satan! believing on JESUS as the Messiah! proclaiming a way to salvation that has nothing to do with infant baptism since the hearers must believe first! proclaiming the power in the NAME of Jesus! suggesting his divinity,and testifying that Jesus both ascended & sat at Gods right hand, which ps 110 tells you outright THAT HE sitting at Gods right hand IS THE DIVINE JUDGE OF THE WORLD !!! These are the very themes most hated by Satan, as scripture demonstrated long before the Mark ending controversy arose ! These are also the most offensive of topics to a Gnostic scholar who teach that the man Jesus & the Christ ghost are 2 different entities entirely !!! Further they teach that salvation isnt connected to the resurrection nor comes from BELIEVING on anybody but rather is the posession of secretive semi mystical knowledge (which is virture in itself as great Socrates, Platos teacher said). Do you think Gnostics might just have a tiny problem with these verses??? Sir- a HUGE! HUGE! problem ! Now We know for a fact that the school at Alexandria edited scripture.———————————–Ok now what happens when we end the gospel without these verses? Then you have a book that sticks out of place from all others ! The other 3 gospels you its a false ending ! Revelation tells you its a false ending ! Marks mentor Peter ends HIS first epistle in PEACE not FEAR ! He ends his 2nd one in profession of the divinity of Christ !!! Kerry my friend if Bart Ehrman is a scholar, then he is like prosecutor who pronounces someone guilty while refusing to check all the leads !!! There are Tons of leads but his biased mind is already made up !
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September 13, 2013 at 2:34 am
Kerry -What scripture tells us its validity is dependent on the pronouncement of a puny council ? Of course there is none because that is mans method of authentication but certainly not Gods methods. No council has had authority to initiate divine approval of scripture !!! As for “documents” before 250 BC,In all humility & seriousness,the scripture in its deepest sense lives just like its author simply lives /exists. God never had a prophet hunt down a Gentile historian & said “Hey please make a notation that this day 14 days after spring solstice in the 10th year of the rule of your king, The I Am That I Am Himself just spoke to me & told me such & such & i want to get an independent record of it . I mean really –think this through. And how would we know for sure that THIS person was a real & bonafide “historian ” of such & such a country??? & Jews were not to even go into the home of a Gentile ! However The closest thing to a historian in Israel WAS the prophet & if so directed periodically , the priestly scribes. This in turn was incorporated right into scripture, So the Bible in yet another sense is in fact its own documentation. We also can see where God specifically told many to write His words to them in a book. Their individual book of Gods Word to them then would be INCLUDED into the bigger “book/ biblos-i.e. be counted as scripture . Yet with others there is no specific verses where he recorded God telling him to write -but its still scripture ! When Jesus says such things as “the words I speak to you are spirit & are life! We can be sure that the “Writings ” Emperor Marcus Aurelius mentioned would have to mean those that Christians valued & surely we can agree that Christians would value words the savior would call Spirit & Life ” rather than be referring to a couple of cookbooks & some book of poems ! Only with the Bible do unbelieving scholars assume that the Bible is lying on everything it says unless solid archaeology proved it different. They wont do this though with any other writing ! Its real blinder bias on display! Until.25 or so years ago they even said king David was a myth!!!! Then total proof upheld the Bible once again. Do they change their tack ? Not a bit in the direction one would think ! In fact they raise the bar even higher that it has to be wrong. But Jason i truly thought gave you an answer in more of the sense that you are wanting. As for me, I must say the critics think they are judging the Bible when in fact its the Bible thats judging them where it says (isa 8:20) “If they speak not according to this word , its because there is no light in them”.
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September 13, 2013 at 2:42 am
So in all sincerity, lots of books of scripture date before 250 Bc which really isnt the issue anyway. The issue is that Gods book/ Word which is vastly different from any other book & proves itself in changed lives from evil to righteous & by prophecy will judge me in the “last day”.
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September 13, 2013 at 4:17 am
Spoken as a true believer. The bottom line is you take by faith that the Bible is what it says it is. You have been taught this since you were a child, and your community surrounded you with these teachings at every turn. This is fine if you need to accept by faith what you cannot know and need this to be true to have any kind of value in your existence. I do not need bronze age fables to give me direction for life. But you can still give nothing definitive before 250BC. And as for archeological research in the Holy Land, you are grasping at straws again to pursue what you must believe is there. The fact is there is no Noah’s Ark on Mt Ararat, there is no sign of an Exodus, there is not sign of Empire for David or Solomon, there is not evidence for Jericho….on and on it goes. Run back to Ron Wyatt and embrace his findings if you need to, but I will pursue evidence no matter where it leads.
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September 13, 2013 at 3:52 pm
Kerry-Remember I was an agnostic as I already stated but you have instead apparently “read ” what you wanted about me even though its not factual. My mother sadly hated God & all others were just unbelievers. Not a single Christian in my family or extended family.So wasn’t taught any such thing. But it is very illustrative of the closed & precast mindset you have adopted from those you now follow, & which is hyper antithetical to real scholarship.& 3- kerry can you even give me solid proof of a single ancestor of yours 5 generations back ? No you cant . So apparently you dont exist. Well thats a silly & unprovable threshold! Asking for archaeological proof of Adam & Eve & a number of other laughable items that get asked for is even sillier! & also what if Wyatt was either totally deluded or a liar or both -his fraudulent “find” was not on the 14000 ft & 17 ooo ft height of Mt Arat Where the 2 broken halves of the ark had been located long before he even began, but rather at several miles from any of the mountains which today are collectively called Arat –& yes Moses writings for example are extremely definitive – You tell me what dynasty exists today that existed then that he should have gone too & gotten formal notarization. The Son of God mentioned his authorship. Honestly the criteria arbitrarily set up by biased “scholars” is so beyond common sense & reality. Dr Nelson Gluek said there has never been a single archaeological find that controverts the Biblical accounts. Ide say thats pretty solid ,although Jesus’ words were far far more solid (jn 5:46).In all sincerity your scholar heroes dont know peanuts about the power of Jesus’ Name or the changed life He will give to ANYONE who seriously & sincerely puts him to the test by repentence confession of His Death Burial & Resurrection & commiting of their life. They dont know anything about nor use this easy proof of Gods existence or validity of his Word because they want to find God about as much as a thief wants to find a Policeman.
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September 13, 2013 at 4:11 pm
As for Jericho -Garstang, Kenyan,& Sellin& Watzinger already confirmed the Biblical. account confirming fire in a layer related to the time period, before Kathlene Kenyan showed up & used her discredited pottery arguement to try to tear it down. But I proudly proclaim that the Exodus account itself was proof before the 3 earlier expeditions. Weve got a whole generation of “Scholars ” like k.k. determined to disprove the Bible today . So???? Nothing new there! In fact 2000 years ago the Bible once again predicted that there would be “scoffers” and “mockers ” before the Lord returns. It even said they would especially deny the flood of Noah as well as the coming of the Lord. Dead on. Again: “If they speak not according to this Word its because they have no light in them.”
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September 13, 2013 at 4:44 pm
To answer one question…yes I can tell you much about my ancestors going back 5 generations. I did not meet them, but I I have traced by lineage back to England. My ancestors came to America in the 1680’s having been given land-grants from the King for property in Northern Maine. I can show you cemetery’s where many are buried. I can show ship manifests, diaries, etc. This is what true evidence looks like. Can you show me anything to prove your claims?
We are not going to agree my friend. Your evidence is largely by scholars who must sign a statement of faith to work which seriously calls into question their objectivity. Just look at any of a myriad of websites and compare. For instance, this one is the first one that pops up on an inquiry. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html
I am not a scoffer as you seem to indicate. I was a diligent student of the word until several problems arose that had no satisfactory answer…evolution, flood, canonization, historiography of the Bible, among others. I just find that when Occam’s Razor is applied the christian “proof” is nothing more then hopeful faith, not evidence.
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September 14, 2013 at 7:44 pm
kerry
Jason and others have responded to your arguments but you are not really presenting anything except assertion. I’m not trying to corner you but I’m trying to demonstrate that your logic is flawed about the NT because you are basing your entire argument off of a website or blog. Then you say don’t quote Stroble. Hypercritical.
Sir… you changed the entire context of your argument. Reread your own post 10. You state repeatedly the words, “no other book”, ah but your paragraph was untrue because there was another book, the quran. I retorted and corrected your misleading paragraph when you ran out the tired line about women and slavery. An asside, slavery is still practiced in America and it is by companies and banks! The OT says that the borrower is slave to the lender, scripture warns of becoming a slave in that way and yet most likely you are a slave as well as I.
You continue to promote a third party website that is peddling half baked truth that you go around parroting… well that is what you accused Jason of do, parroting Strobel. No, my argument is with you and you’ve not made one, only changed your argument twice.
Again… I’m not backing you into a corner but I am discrediting your logic and if your logic can’t be trusted in such a basic way then why should it be trust in a higher way. You’re not an expert and neither am I… we both are taking our direction by faith. Strobel once was an atheist and he was lead to God by the evidence.
To restate… First, you asserted the NT is not special. Then you backed down and agreed that it was Special. Then you asserted that the reason it is special is because, Post 10 “No book condemned people to hell for not believing precisely who the clergy interpreted the passages. No holy book ever taught subjugation of women and endorsement slavery.” Then you change your argument again when challenged to, Post 14 “I apologize for lack of clarity in one section. I meant was a true Holy Book would not teach such atrocities, as does the Koran and the Bible. Yes, as part of my research for truth I read the Koran…very difficult by the way.” Your entire paragraph was about “no other book” to try and dull the pain of agreeing that the NT is special – you parrot arguments that have serious flaws… like the quran is much worse! So, the NT still stands special… in ways that you do not wish it to be.
I think the news supplied by Jason adds more weight that the glorious writ is still being proven true!
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September 16, 2013 at 6:46 pm
I need to clean something up. Next to the last paragraph, next to the last sentence. Take out like and insert but. The thought I was attempting to communicate was, the quran is much worse than the things that kerry uses against the new testament.
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September 16, 2013 at 9:45 pm
Kerry- 1-You said the oldest manuscripts do not have the ending of Mark till vs 20. That simply is NOT so !!!! The oldest EXTANT manuscripts do not have it! That is a HUGE difference! The oldest manuscripts are NOT in existence ! 2- The AGE of a given manuscript does not give it automatic superiority of authority IF you have purposeful deletions taking place in very early times. And the historic record I cited verified that portions of scripture running counter to Gnostic thinking were being deleted as early as 140 ad !
3-Can Ehrman produce tangible evidence from early NT manuscript history that the scriptures were being added to ? No! Why is he so dishonest or utterly uninformed about them being deleted particularly on the theme of the divinity of Jesus . Does he have the name of a single Christian who on his deathbed wants to confess that he was involved in some conspiracy to make Jesus divine by adding phoney passages saying so? That is compelling “scholarship????
4-Kerry-History confirms in additional ways that scripture most certainly was in existence before the corrupt Constantine called his unauthorized council. If somehow you wont accept that Marcus Aurelius’ order of 161 AD that Christians and their writings be destroyed was really talking about the scriptures, then I add to it the persecution of Diocletian of 303-305. In this campaign copies of the scriptures could be “traded in” to the state & buy a selling out Christian reprieve from confiscation of property, to death by sword or beast.We get the word “traitor “from this clever campaign to trade in a copy or copies of the REAL McCoy SCRIPTURES !!! Giving Diocletian’s henchmen your cookbook definitely wouldn’t cut it! These are real scriptures that Satan via these & other emperors wanted DELETED. Ehrman cant produce any solid historic evidence. 4-I fully accept your written assertion of evidence that your 5th Gen. ancestors lived is valid. Well done. Yet we both know that most people can NOT do so. And if I were Ehrman & Co. I would simply claim that your written documents are lying & you merely WANT them to be true. My friend –open your closed mind.
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September 17, 2013 at 5:50 pm
1. As you stated, the oldest MSS are not in existence, then by what authority or evidence do you profess to know what was in them, and whether or not what is in print today is a true manifestation of that MSS. You cannot possibly know, but you can believe anyway.
2. You admit that changes were made, but you have no way to know what changes, deletion or addition, which again begs the question of by what authority can the Scripture be claimed inerrant and infallible.
3. Erhman has done this with many many examples. Obviously you have not read any of his books. Your analogy of confessing conspiratorialists is laughable my friend. Mormon “witnesses” also did not recant, so that prove validity of the Book of Mormon?
4. Scripture was most assuredly not in existence before Constantine, as the council essentially confirmed what scripture was to be. Secondly, you conflate the word scripture with your NT. When the word scripture is used in the NT it is referencing the OT. There was yet no NT when those NT letters were written. Again, how are you confident of what books of “scripture” were destroyed under Marcus Aurelius? There were some 200 potential “scripture” texts circulating in the “church” at that time. And, by what authority can you demonstrate that the “REAL McCOY” was the book being destroyed or changed. I still contend that there was ample destruction of texts in those days, but the church was destroying any text that did not conform to their narrative.
5. Finally, as to your point that Ehrman would find fault with my ancestral providence, again, you prove that you are not familiar with Ehrman and his scholarship. This is just a ridiculous comment which really needs no response.
I guess I would like to add one more item, kind of an example for your edification. You do know of course that the NT is not the only part of the Bible plagued with errors and inconsistencies. The OT has the same problems, particularly the book of Jeremiah, among others. Jer. 33:14-26 is one such controversial passage. It was not in the Septuagint, nor the Qumran versions of Jeremiah. It shows a reworking of the text in support of the new Christian narrative, and throws into question the inerrancy doctrine. When were these added, by whom, and for what purpose?
The problem as it relates to the NT is that Paul, in particular, relied on the Septuagint when quoting from Isaiah…the “corner stone” passages. Paul later quotes from Deut. 32:43, in Rom. 15:11 but this text is not found in the earlier Hebrew version. And, just one more example, in Rev 2:26-27; 12:5; and 19:15 we read of one who will come and rule with an iron rod, which is certainly an allusion to Psalm 2. This “rule is the Septuagint version, but the Hebrew is “break” and is a different concept altogether. The point is simply this; that the NT writers used the
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September 17, 2013 at 6:40 pm
sorry didn’t finish the thought for some reason….
…used the poorly, or probably more accurately, professionally edited and massaged version of the Hebrew texts.
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September 21, 2013 at 5:59 pm
Kerry-1- You miss the fact that without the oldest mss which you NOW admit do not exist, that age of a mss can only be one factor giving authority to it.But i have demonstrated both a motive (Gnosticism) and actual examples of deletions being done to the scriptures. Factoring in that fact, the age of a mss adds virtually nothing to its authority. Your heroes cannot give examples of early additions being done to the scriptures to “create” the divinity of Christ. But I have given proof that scoundrels were attempting to delete same. thus we have Ehrman & Co theory vs. historic fact . Ehrman lost.
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September 21, 2013 at 6:10 pm
2- Of course I proved changes were made, and the historic record already stated what the changes were & were based upon:Gnosticism which teachings John & Paul both warned of.Thankfully Origen & Co were not able to doctor all the mss & those they did were rejected by genuine believers as I also related was going on long before Constantines silly council.This is also one reason that so very many mss (@5800) which were used over & over by the rank & file believers are such an important point. Thus Ehrman & Co.must concentrate only on the age of a Greek Mss & ignore ( an open mind????) the historic record of Gnostic tampering & also ignore early TRANSLATIONS.
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September 21, 2013 at 6:18 pm
kERRY -3-You say that my suggestion that you need a deathbed confession is laughable —Well Im just saying you need SOMETHING-ANYTHING in the historic record to back the oft- repeated, theoretical yet empty claim that the early rank & file believers or the apostles conspired to falsify the scriptures. ! Where is the evidence of that ??? Sorry my friend but Im laughing that “laughing ” at my suggestion is made to become your proof !
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September 21, 2013 at 11:35 pm
4-I’m sorry Kerry that you must either think that Mt. Mk. Lu. Jn. Paul, James, John, Peter & Jude were not really Christians -OR that these same men did not write anything ! Because Marcus Aurelius said the “writings” of the “Christians” were to be destroyed. The historic record is that these men WERE Christians & the historic record is that they indeed WROTE books /epistles. But I ADDITIONALLY added the FACTUAL RECORD of Diocletian’s offer of mercy for those who betrayed the cause & turned in Holy Scripture to Rome. & I said this ALSO was before Constantine’s after-the-fact council pronouncements.Most certainly therefore the scriptures did exist before 325AD.———————–As for the “church” destroying any Mss. not in agreement, you must not realize once again that there was the rich & highly organized corrupt state “church” & the rank & file, far less organized, faithful church.The Roman State church to SOME degree clearly identified with the tampered Mss., because the Vaticanus is one of them, having many “Jesus-is Divine” portions deleted. However the rank & file Christians simply ignored the tampered manuscripts which were thus used far less, & were thus far less often worn out, & thus were in far less need of recopying, & thus today are older. However if some of the Gnostic influenced Mss were destroyed, by either church, I would applaud it, but once again the historic record makes that mere conjecture on your part. My case however is not conjecture.
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September 22, 2013 at 1:12 am
Kerry -Having verifyably demonstrated that the NT scriptures were in some cases deleted but can not be shown to have been added to as Ehrman & Co claim, Yet you now seek to make the same unproven charge upon OT scriptures. First lets establish the clear fact that the word “septuagint” means DIFFERENT THINGS. You said Paul Quoted from it. Actually Paul Quoted from the Lxx. that had not yet been altered by Jews upset that it so plainly laid out Jesus of Nazareth as beautifully fitting the many Messianic passages. The first “revision” was around 120 AD, and 2 more followed in short order. The Gnostic deceiver Origen included these into his 6 column Bible. Its 5th column contained his higher criticism-like notations that tried to undermine Christ & spawned the usage of the term of “5th column” being those pretending to be on your side yet undermining all they can.There were also revisions of the MT(Masoretic Hebrew text), to attempt the same end. That these “revisions” were really efforts to obscure Christs fulfillments are easy to demonstrate. For example in Heb 1 Paul quotes from the lxx of his day in writing “And let all the Angels of God worship him”. This is not in the MT but IS in the Lxx and in the DSS. Here a revision of the M.T. once again DELETED scripture. This DELETION was done by Jews, but as with the Gnostics and NT scriptures,, the target once again was THE SAME : Jesus the Christ, being divinity/God. Yet also “once again” we see the divine built in redundance within scripture so that while each of these “revisions ” tried to destroy links between Jesus & the messianic scriptures they did not always target the same passages & there were just too many scriptures that would have to be deleted or altered that rank & file Jews would plainly see there was a dishonest agenda behind the “revisions “. Eventually Jewish religious leaders actually called for their followers to reject in whole, the once highly favored Septuagint . I ll have to deal later with the clever effort to obscure the word “branch” & its connection to Christ which also fails due to Biblical redundence .
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September 27, 2013 at 10:10 pm
Kerry you lost.
People don’t make up religion like Christianity,I was an atheist like you so don’t say oh you were indoctrinated as a child ,I was always sharp-minded and very very critical to literary everything tat was said to me , at the age of perhaps 8-10 I told my mum I won’t go to church anymore since God doesn’t exist and I hated it anyway.
I resarched for 7 years and I came to a definite conclusion that Christianity is true.So I was disturbed , very disturbed by it.
Who would ever invent such a religion , honestly the person would need to be a lunatic.It demands perfection of God ,not just perfect morals but holiness , it is insane if it isn’t true , it says that there is no sex for eternity (every man would make that up , sure) ,virgin birth isn’t something beliveable so if you wanna make up a religion why on earth would you make up things that are not normal to people of that time or any time for that matter ,if you want them to believe you why would you bother just make up something that will be quickly believable since you want them to accept it as quickly as possible I mean who cares about the doctrine that much , we just need something to control people with or do ? Even for me as a Christian it is hard to grasp things like that why would you make that up in that society which is even worse for that time.There is 1000 doctrines that humans simply wouldn’t invent , it is against our very nature.The real situation is much much worse,the more I study the Bible the more terrified I am with some things even knowing it is from God and there is no way that we would make it up , why even suppouse such a thing or corruption as if it is only option and yeah they must have corrupted it as is there is no possibility that they wrote the truth , you are the one with the wishful thinking here n God is the thing we most wanna hide from and in natrual state we don’t want Him not just as He is , there must be God of Christianity for it to work – it only works with Him.I compared it to all the other religions and it is really different and comletely different,I have a lot of friends of other religions and that was obvious tome even as I was atheist but I thought it is just a better form of a delusion but I couldn’t deny that it quite different and now I know that it is as opposite as it could be.Take God out of Islam and people still have Quran which can make some change in their life but it is only on surface.Without God there can be no change in people – because it goes in to the core of the being , I have seen that in people and in myself , you of course belive that I am deluded but it isn’t so , I myself would honestly preferr atheism and I hated the idea of God and eternal life since I thought we would literally die from boredom what can you do forever and especially with God.I am not a candidate for someone who deluded themselves to believe in God if anything I’d go to spiritualism,budhism or something but most definetly NOT Christianity but the evidence was such that even I had to give up and admit that God is God.
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September 27, 2013 at 10:12 pm
my spelling is wrong since my pc is collapsing slowly
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September 27, 2013 at 10:27 pm
if they were making it up they should have started their corruption as early as 1000-1500 B.C. all about Jesus is found in the OT , I read few of those to my teacher and asked her who is it about and when it was written , she replied Jesus obviously and it is from the NT ,but it was written 1000 before Jesus even spoke His first word (as human) , perhaps you are simply ignorant or deluded as you like to call others but even in later books written by the Jews as Sibylline Oracles , when you read you can hardly not think of Jesus and the fact that the Jews never ever denied the miracels of Jesus,they have just said that He did it with help of some dark powers and not to mention other secular sources.
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September 28, 2013 at 5:16 pm
The arrogance by which you claim you “won” is appalling. You say your intensive research shoed you there is a god and claim that as your authority, as if my some fiat the truth has been revealed to you. I also researched many years having been thoroughly immersed in the christian world for most of my life. My conclusions were very different. so who is right? Also, as to your study, how are you so confident that you picked the right christianity among all of the potential suitors?
And, my friend…every religion is made up. Your claims for your version of christianity, are the same kind of claims that make Mormons confident of their god-given religion, or the Hindus their’s, or the Muslim’s their true religion. As I have said many times here…..please take the Outsider’s Test of Faith if you passionately believe you are correct. It will readily expose the fallacies upon which your claim is made.
You are of course free to believe whatever you wish, and to accept whatever you find plausible. as am I, and we have both looked at the evidence and chosen different paths.l
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October 1, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Sorry Kerry but you have ignored evidence. The evidence is that deceivers influenced by Gnosticism deleted Biblical passages indicating the divinity of Jesus. The evidence is the majority manuscripts are superior to the Sinaiticus & Vaticanus,( being additionally bolstered by the readings of the Italus Vella & by the Peshita.of 177& 157 AD respectively). The evidence (slam dunk type) is that scripture indeed existed before Constantines phoney council. The evidence is that the theory that early Christians dishonestly added to scripture to turn Jesus into God in the flesh has no factual basis.
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