How many times have you heard the worship leader say something like, “Jesus said ‘If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me,’ so let’s worship Jesus and allow him to draw us nearer”? Sometimes it is implied that our worship of Jesus will even result in Jesus bringing sinners to salvation.
A simple reading of the context reveals that it is being both misquoted and taken out of context. Jesus didn’t say “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me,” but rather “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to me.” The addition of the bolded words alone make it clear that the worship leader’s interpretation is wrong. The context makes it even more obvious:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. (Jn 12:32-33, KJV)
It’s true that Jesus is talking about drawing sinners to Him in salvation, but it’s not our worship that accomplishes this – it’s Jesus’ crucifixion. Being lifted up from the earth is a reference to the mode of Jesus’ execution.
The wording of John 12:32 is similar to John 3:14-15: “And as Moses lifted up [raised in the air] the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [raised in the air] that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.”
The next time your worship leader misquotes and misinterprets John 12 in this way, let him know that Jesus has already been crucified, and only needed to be crucified once.
Thinking to Believe 
October 21, 2016 at 8:44 am
Thank you for that that, brings new light to a favorite scripture!
I do believe that as we worship and praise Him we are celebrating his death burial and resurrection
As when We take communion that we are honoring his death as well
Thoughts?!
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October 21, 2016 at 8:47 am
Hi Cheryl. I would agree with you. And I would agree that what you’ve said is Biblical. That’s just not the point of John 12. As I often say for many of these kinds of misinterpretations, “Right idea. Wrong verse.” 🙂
Jason
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October 21, 2016 at 11:03 am
“This he said, signifying what death he should die.” is an interpretive opinion of the writer of what Jesus could not divulge( the planned survival). Remember, Jesus knew all along about the crucifixion; this did not come as a surprise in the middle of the night. He was prepared a long time before Gethsemane: What shall I say Father, save me from this hour? But for this cause came I unto this hour that I would put my life on the line, a ransom. I’m going through with it and he set his face like a flint, he turned neither right hand nor to the left; he allowed neither foe nor friend to deter him; he was obedient unto crucifixion: body, soul and spirit; mind, emotion and will.
I also submit the burial was a simulated moment because every effort had been made and plan executed to preserve the life of an extraordinarily good and special man who had run his life course mission to its end. The plan succeeded, he survived, was treated and nursed back to strength and health and afterward appeared to some his disciples.
Now I know this is an unusual perspective and goes against everything religion has taught to perpetuate supernatural intervention, walking through walls, ascending into the air in a cloud but I believe this cloak of deception should be challenged by common sense.
Moses made an engraving of a serpent. This engraving was a metaphorical representation of the devil blamed for gossip and dissension among the people by doubters who stirred up enmity, dissatisfaction and opposition to Moses. So Moses raised this engraving as a reminder to the people to beware of doubters circulating the venom of seditious bitterness within the world.
Moses lifted up the serpent image as a reminder to the people of everything evil in humanity; the Son of Man was lifted crucified as a reminder of everything that was good in humanity and that his life, not his crucifixion is worthy of celebration.
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October 21, 2016 at 12:52 pm
This is a semantical argument. If a worship leader calls to lift up Jesus, it is the idea of raising up everything the crucified AND the risen savior accomplished, that allows people to be “able” by the spirit to come. Moses lifted up the defeated snake, showing that death was defeated, if Israel would “look they would live”. In Particular, you are right about this reference, yet I do believe that worship leaders understand that John was addressing Christ being lifted up, that this offering enables those spiritually dead to come. One can metaphorically lift up Jesus in worship, as seen in the risen savior that defeated death, and in doing so, people will look to Jesus and live.
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October 21, 2016 at 7:09 pm
Jason, thank you for a good post that takes us back to some scripture. I like this kind of discourse. Good answers here and I get the spirit of what people are saying about lifting up Jesus in worship while at the same time this particular verse should be understood in context which you have clearly explained for us.
It is important to use the right idea for the right verse because this is where our understanding of the gospel comes in. Even when considering worship, a lot of people think that worship is what we do for 30 minutes at the beginning of a church service on Sunday morning. Of course we know that is not the case as our worship is not limited to singing nor is it confined to a building on a certain day.
I think it is healthy for our understanding to read scripture in the correct context and to know the actual meaning of what the scriptures are saying. In many cases we should “test” our understanding by asking questions.
For example, we know that Jesus died for our sins once and for all and that we receive this forgiveness when we are born again. I think every Christian would agree with that statement.
Question : Why then do we see altars filled with mostly born again believers sobbing and asking God for forgiveness ? Aren’t we already forgiven ? Is our asking for forgiveness trigger God to “re-forgive” us again and again ? Is this biblical ? 1 John 1:9 is often quoted for this but the context of that verse can be explained to get the correct meaning, which I will not do here.
Do we we really understand what Jesus accomplished and what the cross actually means ?
Naz
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October 21, 2016 at 10:28 pm
I’m really hoping Isaiah 53:5 is part of this series. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard “by his stripes we are healed” invoked before a prayer call for physical healing.
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October 22, 2016 at 12:16 am
Let’s open the viewfinder fully on John 12 in examining v. 32.
12:1 Jesus, therefore, six days before the Passover, came to Bethany where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.
2 So they made Him a supper there, and Martha was serving; but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with Him.
3 Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, said,
5 “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?”
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.
7 Therefore Jesus said, “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial.
8 For you always have the poor with you, but you do not always have Me.”
9 The large crowd of the Jews then learned that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also;
11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and were believing in Jesus.
12 On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, “Hosanna! BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel.”
14 Jesus, finding a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written,
15 “FEAR NOT, DAUGHTER OF ZION; BEHOLD, YOUR KING IS COMING, SEATED ON A DONKEY’S COLT.”
16 These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.
17 So the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead, continued to testify about Him.
18 For this reason also the people went and met Him, because they heard that He had performed this sign [attesting miracle].
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him.”
20 Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast;
21 these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.”
22 Philip came and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip came and told Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
* * * * *
John informs us in the opening verse that Messiah has arrived in Bethany just east of Jerusalem six days before Passover (at which He shall fulfill His mission as the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world) and notes the presence of Lazarus, “whom Jesus had raised from the dead.” John goes on to relate an incident of high significance that takes place as Yahshua/Jesus dines in the house of Lazarus, Martha and Mary. Taking costly perfume Mary anoints Messiah’s feet and wipes them with her hair. Judas Iscariot protests immediately saying the expense for the perfume should have went to the poor. But his protests are recognized by Jesus as hypocritical for He knows his true plans and intent is to betray Him and steal for himself. (v. 7) Therefore Jesus said, “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial.” This incident mirrors a similar occurrence recorded in (Luke 7:36 – 50) during which another woman (this one only identified as a “sinner”) weeps and anoints Messiah’s feet as He reclines at the table in the house of Simon the Pharisee. [(v. 37) And there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, (v. 38) and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet and anointing them with the perfume.] This time the question arose over Yahshua/Jesus forgiving the woman’s sins because of her love. Wasn’t it only God Who could forgive sin? Messiah tells Simon, (v. 47) “For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” She placed her trust in the Greatest Commandment, i.e., Love the LORD/YHWH thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and was forgiven of her many sins. Not only did Yahshua forgive her but as God & Messiah He saved her as well: (vv. 48 – 50) Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” John in this Chapter continues to record the groundwork [including the references to the attesting miracle of Messiah raising Lazarus from the dead: (v. 17) So the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead, continued to testify about Him.] Jesus continually lays for His identity as the Son of God, King of Israel and the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13-14). Next John writes of Palm Sunday during which Yahshua/Jesus fulfills the prophecies of Daniel 9:24-27 and Zechariah 9:9. All along the way we are shown that it’s truly God Himself who controls the timing of events here. Remember, when the chief priests tell Jesus He must stop the people from proclaiming Him Messiah He rebukes them , [(v. 14) And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
(v. 15) But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that He had done, and the children who were shouting in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they became indignant
(v. 16) and said to Him, “Do You hear what these children are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘OUT OF THE MOUTH OF INFANTS AND NURSING BABIES YOU HAVE PREPARED PRAISE FOR YOURSELF’?” (Matthew 21:14-16)]. Also on this day some Greeks who have come to the Feast in Jerusalem are seeking an audience with Jesus of Nazareth. It’s at this point that Messiah delivers a stunning teaching on what will be His substitutionary atoning sacrifice as the Passover Lamb of God. [(v. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”)] Even though Jesus tells His disciples many times that He must & will be handed over into the hands of wicked men who will scourge Him and slay Him and He is to rise again on the third day because of their faulty conception of the Redeemer of Israel from their flawed understanding of Hebrew Scriptures it’s only after Messiah’s Resurrection that they will know and realize the whole truth [John 2:22]. (v. 30) Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
(v. 31) Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (Protoevangelium: Genesis 3:15) Yahshua declares to all with ears to hear and eyes to see the direct result of His first advent: the destruction of the works of the adversary by His work on the cross [The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8b)]. And now we come in earnest to the verse in consideration: (v. 32) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Indeed it does speak of the death to come which serves as propitiation for sin but it speaks as well of the Spirit of Life, eternal life held by the Son of God [Luke 4:1] evinced by His resurrection from the tomb. This is why it caused so much consternation for those who heard it from Messiah’s lips [(v. 34) The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”]. They were not ignorant of Old Testament prophecies concerning the Holy One of Israel. They knew of Daniel’s characterization in prophecy regarding the Son of Man. That He would stand before the Ancient of Days and receive an everlasting Divine Dominion. This is why they could not reconcile the idea of Messiah’s death. It’s as John wrote: (v. 37) But though He had performed so many signs [attesting miracles] (Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Matthew 12:40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”) before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED? [Isaiah 53]”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” Isaiah knew the risen Messiah because he had witnessed Him when he was commissioned as prophet before the LORD at His Throne Room [Isaiah 6]. O you of little faith, you do not see the Light before you. Little do you know that your time has just about run out and soon you will be cast into darkness unless, (v. 36) “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.” If we are to take hold of Messiah and abide in Him we must be ready, willing and able to forsake all else. We must be able to take up our cross daily and follow Him, walk in His Light according to His voice. Love the approval of God. Seek first God’s Kingdom & righteousness [Matthew 6:33]. (v. 44) And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. (Yahshua gives all glory to Our Father.)
(v. 45) He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
(v. 46) I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
(v. 47) If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them [While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:27-28)], I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
(v. 48) He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
(v. 49) For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
(v. 50) I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Luke 7
11 Soon afterwards He went to a city called Nain; and His disciples were going along with Him, accompanied by a large crowd.
12 Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her.
13 When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, “Do not weep.”
14 And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!”
15 The dead man sat up and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
16 Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!”
17 This report concerning Him went out all over Judea and in all the surrounding district.
18 The disciples of John reported to him about all these things.
19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”
20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’”
21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind.
22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
23 Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
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October 22, 2016 at 1:43 pm
Dane, yes, it is a semantical argument because the Bible is a book of semantics. And when people don’t pay attention to the context of each semantic block, it results in misinterpretation. And when we misinterpret the words, then we no longer have the Word of God, but the mere words of men.
Please pay close attention to what I did and did not say. I did not say that it is wrong to say “Let’s lift up Jesus” in the sense of exalting him. What I said is that worship leaders who quote this passage for that meaning are misusing and misinterpreting Scripture.
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October 22, 2016 at 1:44 pm
Frank, please stop using the comments section of my blog to quote things at length and link to all sorts of stuff that is either not related to the topic, or barely related.
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October 22, 2016 at 1:52 pm
Phillip, I’ll try to add that one to the series.
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October 23, 2016 at 12:53 am
Jason, I haven’t done that in any posts to your blog.
Please explain this Scripture:
On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry. Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening. (Mark 11:12-14)
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October 23, 2016 at 1:26 am
Frank, comment #7.
I don’t know about that passage. Always found it confusing.
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October 23, 2016 at 11:54 am
FA – Jason:
Mark 11:12-14 The curse of the fig tree shows Jesus had a sense of humour; imagining I suppose that since the lone fig tree was by the side of the roadway weary travellers would keep the tree barren as soon as figs appeared if the tree was old enough to produce fruit. If not travellers, birds and other wildlife like squirrels eat figs. Fruit producing trees like figs produce about 10 out of the 12 months of the year.
Jesus may have uprooted a young fig tree although I believe this would have taken an unseemly sense of anger which I believe Jesus did not have but would explain why the fig tree was withered when they returned the next day as in Mark although in Matthew the text says it withered before their very eyes which signals an immediacy but it could also be over a 2 day event.
On the practical side the most common reason for a fig tree not producing fruit is simply its age. Trees, like animals, need to reach a certain maturity before they can produce offspring. Fruit is how a fig tree creates seeds. If the fig tree is not old enough to produce seeds, it will also not produce fruit.
Fig trees usually mature enough to make fruit at between 2 years and 6 years of age; however, If a fig tree is suffering from water stress caused by either too little or too much water, this can cause it to stop producing figs or never start producing, especially if it is a younger tree. Water stress will send the tree into a survival mode and the fig tree will simply not have the energy needed to invest in making fruit.
It’s just speculation I hasten to add.
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October 23, 2016 at 3:25 pm
A Lesson From a Fig Tree
Ligonier Ministries
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/lesson-fig-tree/
From the above article:
Matthew Henry writes, “The fruit of fig trees may justly be expected from those who have the leaves. Christ looks for the power of religion from those who make profession of it.” The cursing of the fig tree is a sobering reminder of just how much the Lord hates hypocrisy. As Christians we must live consistently with what we say we believe. An unbelieving world is watching us; therefore, let it only see those who practice what they preach.
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October 25, 2016 at 5:54 am
I believe the fig tree is a representation of the unbelieving religious Jews at the time of Jesus. Jesus Himself said He was sent to preach to the house of Israel yet the religious leaders rejected Him as their Messiah.
Religion does not feed and help people but rather binds them up and provides no nourishment for the soul and spirit. This was the state of the Jewish religion at the time of Jesus. A dead, lifeless hypocritical establishment that flaunted their righteousness in the their robes and kept people from entering the kingdom of God.
In context, Jesus said that He was hungry at the beginning of the verse which the fig tree was not able to provide. This has nothing to do with a tree, but the tree is a metaphor for the fruitlessness of religion.
After His cursing of the fig tree, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees in the temple and then goes on to tell Peter to “have faith in God” after they see the withered fig tree which Jesus cursed. I believe Jesus was trying to show His disciples that the way of faith in God is superior to the rules and regulations of law and religion.
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Mar 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Naz
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October 25, 2016 at 12:22 pm
Frank,
This has nothing to do with our performance as Christians although I agree we should “practice what we preach”. This is not the context of the passage.
We can never be cursed of God as believers and our fruit bearing is the fruit of the Spirit, not our fruit.
Naz
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October 25, 2016 at 2:09 pm
Naz,
It’s a positive that you agree we should “practice what we preach”. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. (James 1:22) The passage tells us that Messiah’s looking for the genuine article. Don’t be a hypocrite. Don’t cover yourself outwardly with a false show of affection for YHWH while meanwhile inwardly you offer little or nothing. “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:5)
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October 25, 2016 at 10:01 pm
Naz:
Your characterization of the fig tree as a a representation of the unbelieving religious Jews at the time of Jesus is ridiculous.
It’s an example of how church dogma tries to bring everything into their own dogma to conform to imaginative stupidism and is absolutely bizarre.
And I hasten to add that he idea you espouse is not your own idea but a repeat of other church scholars trying to make dogmatic sense of the fig tree, What Jesus said was what he said and has nothing to do with church talking points.
You are allowing yourself to go off base of common sense and regurgitate what other pseudo intellects lead you to articulate about, spurious speculation.
None of what you said is from your own mind; what you repeat here is from the minds of others and you’re just repeating obvious nonsense.
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October 26, 2016 at 6:26 am
Leo, I didn’t paste quotes or referred to scholars. This is my interpretation based on my understanding at this time.
My explanation fits the context of the following verses of Jesus chastising the Pharisees in the temple. To me it makes sense. If you don’t like it, so be it.
Naz
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October 26, 2016 at 6:47 am
Frank, I am not advocating laziness or waywardness as you may suppose but I am not living my life under commandments and condemnation either. I am living from the heart and letting Christ produce the fruit of the Spirit through me. That is a lot different from “thou shalt” and “thous shalt not”.
My identity is not based on what I do but who I am. As believers we are children of God and nothing can change that. The scriptures like the one in James implores us to live lives consistent to who we are. See the following verses for context …..
James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
James 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
So when you look in the mirror Frank, who do you see ? Do you see a sinner in need of forgiveness with a wicked heart ? Or do you see a completely forgiven, pure, holy and righteous child of God ?
If you’re trying to measure yourself by “how well you’re doing”, then you will probably see a dirty person in the mirror. That happens when you try to live according to the Law. It does not work my friend, I’ve tried it.
So if you can see who you really are when you look in the mirror, then you will realize that being “doers of the word” is consistent with who you are and in fact what you want to do from your heart. Your mind still needs to be renewed daily but God gave you a new heart at salvation and you actually desire the things of God.
Context if king.
Naz
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October 26, 2016 at 7:53 am
Naz,
I see a work in progress. I recognize I’m not fully there [mature/complete] yet . Perhaps you are but I and many many others are definitely not. All fruitful relationships with YHWH require fidelity [Mark 11:22] and gratitude [Colossians 3:15] NOT hypocrisy and arrogance towards God on our part. Why do you think Jesus/Yahshua cleansed the Temple? If you think not then study Matthew 23. Would you agree that YHWH does not change [Hebrews 13:8]? If so, then consider this: Ezekiel 20:33 – 44.
As Yahshua Himself said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:28)
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October 26, 2016 at 8:52 am
Frank, yes of course we are work in progress as our minds are being renewed daily as we learn and grow. But we are the righteousness of Christ ! Do no deny what God has done in your heart. You are a new creation in Christ Jesus, not a new creation based on human effort and your ongoing performance.
As for the Pharisees, I don’t see how the rebuke of Jesus to unbelieving hypocrites have anything to do with you and me. We are children of God and are not under wrath but call God Abba Father.
You focus on hearing and doing as if I don’t want to do the will of God. Of course I do, don’t you trust what Christ has done in my heart ? Do you trust God to bear fruit in peoples lives who are truly born again or do you need to quote Law to make sure people conform to the commandments ? The Law is not of faith.
You mistake my faith and confidence in God for arrogance and you mistake my freedom in Christ for lawlessness. These are the same things that the apostle Paul battled with among the Jews and new born Christians. The gospel of grace is radical and not many can receive its full power and liberation without resorting to Law based living.
As you have received Christ, so walk in Him ….
Naz
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October 26, 2016 at 9:02 am
Nah:
It seems to me that your quote from Mark 11: 15-22 is taken directly from the bible contrary to your subsequent claim: “……I didn’t paste quotes………”
Secondly the spiritual unfruitfulness I read, before you pasted your information can be found here after a quoted paragraph:
“The presence of a fruitful fig tree was considered to be a symbol of blessing and prosperity for the nation of Israel. Likewise, the absence or death of a fig tree would symbolize judgment and rejection. Symbolically, the fig tree represented the spiritual deadness of Israel, who while very religious outwardly with all the sacrifices and ceremonies, were spiritually barren because of their sins. By cleansing the Temple and cursing the fig tree, causing it to whither and die, Jesus was pronouncing His coming judgment of Israel and demonstrating His power to carry it out……………”
https://gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html
I also find it amusing that Christians cannot seem to grasp my reference to metaphor text but find no problem using the metaphor to support their own interpretation of text…
In fact when you think about it, context like text itself, is in the eye of the beholder, n’est ce pas? Accordingly it is no small wonder that Christians can’t agree with each other and shows the extent to which Christianity is extant:
These 33,000 are subdivided into “6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs”, and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
“Marginals” (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
So when is a fig tree not a fig tree? when it is a metaphor
temple not a temple? when it is a metaphor
baptism not a baptism? when it is a metaphor.
a phrase
a sentence anything in the text? when it is a metaphor.
when is the bible not a bible? when it is a metaphor.
Taken to its logical conclusion, text and context of the Bible and any Holy Book, can mean everything to everybody, everywhere on earth. The “EEEE Syndrome.”
Heh heh heh heh….
In your mind your are right, in everybody’s mind they are right as per your statement:
“To me it makes sense. If you don’t like it, so be it.”
So the debate is merely a clash of mind meme ideas according to perception.
Cheers…
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October 26, 2016 at 9:49 am
Nah:
To your point of looking in the mirror is a good point.
As I’ve said many times before about Jesus:
I rose to give myself to you in spiritual regeneration to re-invade your humanity in the person of my other self, the other Comforter, the Holy Ghost to credit you with my divine presence so that by virtue of who I am, living where I do, in your heart as a redeemed sinner I can impart to you all divine dynamic of my indwelling and give you what it takes.
Now that’s the gospel, not the gospel plus, not the Lookist Edition. The fact that the Lord Jesus rose to invade the humanity of every forgiven sinner, and share his life with them on earth and communicate that life through them to their fellow man, this isn’t for the fanatical, this is normality, this is a man being restored to his true humanity. Because you see, it takes the life of the Lord Jesus in you, to be in the process of time what the CRUCIFIXION of the Lord Jesus for you gives you the right to become.
So when you look in the mirror it is worth repeating:
“……..living from the heart and letting Christ produce the fruit of the Spirit through me. That is a lot different from “thou shalt” and “thou shalt nots”.
You should see “……a completely forgiven, pure, holy and righteous child of God?”
And that sums up “who to be and what you see.”
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October 26, 2016 at 10:03 am
Man was built with a human spirit to be inhabited by God himself (Natural Design and we call that God) so that by his free moral option, given the right to say yes or no, the holy spirit(of natural design) may invade the human spirit and from within the human spirit, gain access to his human soul and as God himself play the role in man’s soul that instinct plays in the soul of the bee. So that with the same mathematical accuracy, governed by God within the man, by what we do and say and are, we’ll reflect his mind, his will, his purpose, always his point of view. So if we were man in normality, we could say what the Lord Jesus could say then: he that hath seen me has seen my father. As perfect as my father in heaven, as holy as God whose glory is revealed in my humanity.
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October 26, 2016 at 10:21 am
Leo, it sounds like you believe the gospel ….
“I rose to give myself to you in spiritual regeneration ..”
Do you believe the Lord Jesus rose from the dead ?
“The fact that the Lord Jesus rose to invade the humanity of every forgiven sinner, and share his life with them on earth and communicate that life through them to their fellow man, this isn’t for the fanatical, this is normality, ”
Jesus is not just sharing His life, He IS our life and that life is eternal life. And Yes, this is for every “forgiven sinner”, for those who believe and put their faith and trust in Christ. This is not for unbelievers.
“Because you see, it takes the life of the Lord Jesus in you, to be in the process of time what the CRUCIFIXION of the Lord Jesus for you gives you the right to become.”
The life of the Lord Jesus is freely given to those who believe. It does not take a process of time to become the righteousness of God. It happens at regeneration or when a person is born again. The process is the renewing of the mind as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, as Peter said. We are not climbing the ladder of righteousness, we are seated with Christ (spiritually) in heavenly places already. It’s a done deal, finished for all time and nothing can be added or taken away from what Jesus accomplished at the cross. It is finished !
Leo, it sounds like you are close to understanding the gospel but you must observe 1 John 1:9. The apostle John was writing to agnostics that denied sin and denied who Christ was. If you don’t observe 1 John 1:9 you have no part of the eternal life that Jesus offers to all. This is the truth. I implore you to be reconciled to God.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Naz
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October 26, 2016 at 12:00 pm
Naz:
It is not simply belief. If you think that only belief or personal conviction saves you, think again. it may heal you and change your destination but you need to re-read the story about the ten lepers and take into the following account of the Gospel to dispel the notion of healing belief and think of the grace that saves you, not only becoming a Christ follower but “be-ing” the Christ follower you have become.
Says the Lord Jesus, if you’re lost, if you’re groping in the dark; if you’re still trying to find your way home, if you feel dirty, if you want to be clean, if you know you’re lost and a sinful person and you want to be saved, you want to be redeemed, if you want to know forgiveness, said the Lord Jesus, “Come to me, I am the way” how to become a Christian but I’m not only the way to become a Christian, I am the Life. If having become a Christian and you want to know how to live the Christian life, well, said the Lord Jesus, very simple: “Come to me; I am the life”. I’m the truth not only as to how to become a Christian, I’m the truth how to be the Christian you have become. Because having given myself for you to be the way on the grounds of redemption whereby you can be reconciled to a holy God, be accepted in the beloved and know that your sins are forgiven, acquitted. Having given myself for you in redemption, I rose again from the place of the dead to give myself to you in spiritual regeneration to re-invade your humanity in the person of my other self, the other Comforter, the Holy Ghost to credit you with my divine presence so that by virtue of who I am, living where I do, in your heart as a redeemed sinner I can impart to you all divine dynamic of my indwelling and give you what it takes.
Now that’s the gospel, not the gospel plus
The Ten Lepers:
“11-13 It happened that as he made his way toward Jerusalem, he crossed over the border between Samaria and Galilee. As he entered a village, ten men, all lepers, met him. They kept their distance but raised their voices, calling out, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14-16 Taking a good look at them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.”
They went, and while still on their way, became clean. One of them, when he realized that he was healed, turned around and came back, shouting his gratitude, glorifying God. He kneeled at Jesus’ feet, so grateful. He couldn’t thank him enough—and he was a Samaritan.
17-19 Jesus said, “Were not ten healed? Where are the nine? Can none be found to come back and give glory to God except this outsider?” Then he said to him, “Get up. On your way. Your faith has healed and saved you.”
You see the Lord Jesus came magnificently to demonstrate the proposition, the divine logic of which is absolutely imperative to a man’s humanity. And in explaining this to you, I’m simply preaching the gospel. Don’t please imagine that the gospel is simply believe in Jesus and have your sins forgiven; that isn’t the gospel. You will only have your sins forgiven if you are prepared to come to the Lord Jesus and accept him into your life for the savior he came to be but THAT IS NOT GOSPEL. That simply lets you off the hook; that simply changes your destination; that simply trades hell for heaven but Jesus Christ didn’t come into this world simply to get you and me out of hell and into heaven; he came into this world supremely to get God out of heaven in to you and to me.
You don’t imagine that God takes any pleasure in having a heaven filled with men and women redeemed in the blood of his incarnate son who will be as useless in heaven as they were on earth? Stacked in bundles of 10, dusted with DDT once a week by a bunch of angels, do you imagine that’s what heaven’s going to be like? Heaven is going to be populated with men, women, boys and girls, who’ve been restored to their redeemed and now true humanity.
I believe the Lord Jesus rose from the place of the dead, the tomb, the grave, Sheol but not from the dead because Jesus was not dead. Just as Jonah was not raised from the dead but rose from the potential place of Sheol, the grave, the place of the dead by drowning but Jonah did not drown and did not die. Jonah was washed up on shore in the ocean storm and saved from Sheol just as Jesus was saved from the place of the dead by escaping from the Tomb.
Matthew 38 Later a few religion scholars and Pharisees got on him. “Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?”
39-40 Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.”
Three days and three nights is biblical speak for the metaphorical meaning “short period of time, not textually literal; just as 40 days and 40 nights is metaphorical speak for a longer period of time.
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October 26, 2016 at 12:36 pm
Naz:
I am flattered that you think I am close to understanding the Gospel. But what makes you so sure that I am not already at a place you have yet to discern and go too.? And that I have to follow your context about what you think 1 John 1:9 means from your perspective of going forward; if you think that going forward you don’t have to do anything because you are already there, from my perspective, I think you’d be wrong.
For your information 1 John 1:9 says that he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness (present and past) but going forward you need to have some skin in the game and not rest on your laurels simply because you now believe in Jesus. To be so satisfied with your own achievement of belief that you make no effort to improve your walk in the way of righteousness is a dangerous slope.
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October 26, 2016 at 8:49 pm
Leo, your comments prove to me 2 things:
1) You’re still an unbeliever because you do not accept the physical death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2) You are a legalist depending on your own skin and effort to maintain your righteousness.
No, I was wrong, you are far from knowing and believing the true gospel.
😦
Naz
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October 26, 2016 at 9:43 pm
It’s nice to hear you admit you were wrong. The point is, I know the true gospel and you believe the inaccurate gospel based on the supernaturalist’s myths carried over from the Ancient Gods of Mythology.
You believe in things that never happen nor can happen ever outside Religion and Hollywood.
1.) You believe that the miracle of the loaves and fishes came out of thin air with left-overs and I know that bread and fishes were provided by Jesus from his wealthy disciples and cached in preparation for the retreat Jesus planned for.
2.) You believe Jesus walked through walls when he appeared after the entombment and I suppose you believe he walked through the rock wall when he left the tomb or was beamed out by ancient Star Trek Crew.
3.) You believe that Jonah actually lived in the belly of a huge fish for three days and nights.
All of these events are easily explained without even an inkling of supernaturalism, not even one hint of supernaturalism.
And there are many such events all through bible pages that happened without a hint of unnatural and supernatural intervention. However those events are perpetrated as superstitious falsehoods by all religions for pence and power, by hollywood for pence and entertainment, voodooism for power and control and money and blindly accepted by countless believers all over a world duped because of ignorance as Jesus so aptly put it religious dogmatic education: “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, lawyers and religious scholars, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (because of your lies about supernaturalism that does not exist! and you KNOW IT!)
B Bob, dodged to answer the questions, Layman dodged to answer the questions and none among you offered any answers other than the worn out, hackneyed and archival religious vernacular “miraculous supernaturalism”.
Come on Naz, I don’t want to believe you are that devoid, indoctrinated, brainwashed of your God-given brain-common-sense you were born with……… 🙂 Really?
1.) Okay how did Jesus escape the tomb?
2,) How did he feed the multitudes?
3.) How did Jonah live inside the belly of the Big Fish?
And let me ask you Naz, if you don’t dodge the answers to any of the above “miracles” or this question: So please tell me what you “believe”:
4.) How did Jesus know it was Judas who was going to betray him to the Jews?
5.) How did Jesus know the place where?
6.) And how did Jesus know the exact hour the betrayal would take place?
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October 27, 2016 at 6:30 am
Leo, Jesus is the Son of God, that’s how He knows these things.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Leo, why do you want to die in your sins ? I’m not preaching religious bondage here. But you must believe in the miraculous power of God, that is a prerequisite to faith in the risen Christ.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Naz
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October 27, 2016 at 10:46 am
Just in case you don’t get my meaning, when I say “Son of God”, this is a term I’m using exclusively for Jesus of Nazareth. I am saying He is the unique Son of God to differentiate Him from every other human being that ever lived…including yourself.
Naz
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October 27, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Nah:
You are quite far gone unfortunately.
You have no idea about Jesus as the natural, common sense person he was and rely on the belief in the supernatural powers that are spawned in the imagination of man.
The bible is quite explicit about why Jesus knew because he is the Son of God. yet I know these things and I too am the Son of God; or don’t you believe that it is not what I say to you but what the father says to you?
The bible is quite clear how Jesu knew these things but you are so blinded to the why that you can’t see reason beyond your supernatural mindset which is so completely against Jesus that it befuddles me how you can even say you know all about Jesus when the words you state clearly indicate an ignorance so complete as to bring glee to the church elite as a perfect proselyte twice as fit for hell as they themselves. OMG you are so duped. I can’t imagine how you can climb out of the tomb you are imbedded by.
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October 28, 2016 at 5:09 pm
OK we’re done here ….
Naz
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October 29, 2016 at 12:55 am
Nah:
You have been done so many times you are overcooked already!
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October 29, 2016 at 10:35 am
Naz:
You would have more credibility if you simply said “I do not know” regarding the answers my questions requested from you and then I could give you the answers and give you some much needed knowledge but to simply say “Jesus is the Son of God, that’s how He knows these things.” is the dictionary definition of a “dodge” for dismissing the questions of ignorance. Why because you deliberately “ignore” knowledge that only I can give you.
And then you said: (and I can hardly believe you would say such a totally and obvious inaccurate statement that even contradicts Jesus own words about your use of the term Son of Man….)”when I say “Son of God”, this is a term I’m using exclusively for Jesus of Nazareth. I am saying He is the unique Son of God to differentiate Him from every other human being that ever lived.”
Jesus himself did not use the term Son of God to differentiate himself from any other human being by referring to a scripture that actually generalizes about other human beings not just himself.
And here is what Jesus said about your incorrect interpretation, which for you by any description is extensive. Your interpretation is the same interpretation of the Pharisees which reminds me of the old adage that “the acorn does not fall far from the oak tree.”
Again the Jews picked up rocks to throw at him. Jesus said, “I have made a present to you from the Father of a great many good actions. For which of these acts do you stone me?”
33 The Jews said, “We’re not stoning you for anything good you did, but for what you said—this blasphemy of calling yourself God.”
34-38 Jesus said, “I’m only quoting your inspired Scriptures, where God said, ‘I tell you—you are gods.’ If God called your ancestors ‘gods’—and Scripture doesn’t lie—why do you yell, ‘Blasphemer! Blasphemer!’ at the unique One the Father consecrated and sent into the world, just because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
And the scripture Jesus referred to was states, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.”
What Jesus actually did was to take the Psalms scripture to heart and he made the conscious decision to play the role that that Psalms scripture demanded of everybody and by taking the mantle(role, burden, onus, duty, responsibility; i.e., “the mantle of leadership”) by so doing, Jesus differentiated himself from you Naz, not from other human beings including myself who aspires to apply the same duty.
You do not support Jesus, you argue against Jesus so the question is, how can you stop?
Well, when you are dead you are the only one who doesn’t know you are dead; it’s only difficult for others. And there are countless “walking dead” among us. It’s the same when you’re stupid.
Be careful when you follow the Masses….sometimes the “M” is silent.
Psalms 82:6
If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and you claim Scripture cannot be set aside what about the one whom the Father sets apart as his very own and sends into the world? John 10:34-36
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October 29, 2016 at 12:55 pm
Beware the Narcissist’s Creed
“There are real problems with ignoring original context and original intent. First, we effectively lose the Scriptures. If the Scriptures really mean what they mean to this reader, and that reader (no matter if those readings contradict each other), then there is no text of Scripture. The reader becomes the text because the reader is determining the text. The irony here is that, in popular evangelical piety, this way of reading Scripture is rampant and yet, in those same settings one is quite likely to be warned about the dangers of “postmodernism.” Well, nothing is more “postmodern” than denying original intent and privileging (as they say) the reader over the author! When it comes to subjectivism and deconstructing texts, the French could learn from the evangelicals.
A second great problem is that invariably, when the text is decontextualized from its original setting and re-contextualized in our setting Scripture is no longer a historical text but it is turned into a myth or a moral story. If the text can be removed from history then it doesn’t really matter if it’s historically true so long as it’s morally true. Moral truth without historical truth may work for modern liberalism but it didn’t work for the Apostle Paul, who wrote that if Jesus wasn’t historically, actually raised from the dead then our faith is worthless. Paul didn’t know anything about the moral truth of Christianity without its historical reality. On this see J. Gresham Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism.
A third problem is that deconstructing Scripture this way fundamentally corrupts its message. When we treat Scripture thus, when we lift passages out of their context, even under the context of “applying them,” we change the message of the text. This is the brilliance of Dr Bergsma’s aphorism. Any (biblical) text, without a (its historical, grammatical, canonical, and literary) context, is a pretext (an opportunity falsely taken) for a proof-text (a text abused by a preacher or Bible study leader to make a point that is not actually being made by the text itself). Historically, the most frequent result of the abuse of Scripture this way is to make the text to be about “me” or “us” rather than about Christ (however revealed in the text), his objective moral law, his saving acts and Word, and his church (in whatever epoch of redemptive history). Scripture is not, in the first instance about “us” or “me.” In the first instance Scripture is about God the Holy Trinity. It is about creation, redemption, and consummation. It’s about the progress of redemptive history and revelation. It’s about the salvation of his people in Christ. We come into the story rather late. It has massive implications for us. We do have to find ourselves in the story that God has written but it is great mistake to make the text about us.
For these reasons I’ve often been nervous about whatever the latest preaching or Bible Study “model” is supposed to be, whether it is the “idols of the heart” or find the “purpose” of the text or even Christian experience. Each of these, in their own ways, seem to me to find a way, however subtly, to move the focus of the story away from Christ and back to me. The text becomes about “us” or “me” or my life (and sometimes about the preacher). As sinners we have a powerful, almost overwhelming incentive and drive to re-write the story and if we can do that in pious sounding ways then it’s harder to detect. After all, who can object to searching our our own personal idols or to making concrete practical applications of the text to daily life or to explaining Christian experience?
The point is to preach and to teach “this text.” What contribution to the canon does this particular text make? What is distinctive about this passage, read in its narrow context, in its broader canonical context, in its historical context, and in its grammatical context? That is the question that the Bible Study leader or the preacher must answer. The preacher/teacher must always also relate this passage to others and see the unity of Scripture. As we learned from Van Til, we must always account for the one (that which unifies) and the many (that which distinguishes) and we can only do that as we begin with and pay close attention to the context.”
https://heidelblog.net/2010/11/any-text-without-a-context-is-pretext-for-a-prooftext/
Posted by R. SCOTT CLARK | Tuesday, November 30, 2010
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October 29, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Naz,
You wrote in post # 20.
“Frank, I am not advocating laziness or waywardness as you may suppose but I am not living my life under commandments and condemnation either. I am living from the heart and letting Christ produce the fruit of the Spirit through me. That is a lot different from “thou shalt” and “thous shalt not”.”
Understand, I’m not supposing that at all about you. I take you at your word. I do think you’ve identified an area where we disagree though; for I don’t draw your distinction concerning the “thou shalt” and “thous shalt not”. I see a clear connection between repentance and obedience. The one cannot follow without the other. This teaching explains what I see:
Mark 1
14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Acts 26
19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
21 For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.
22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place;
23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
24 While Paul was saying this in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind! Your great learning is driving you mad.”
25 But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth.
The Hebrew Root of Repent
119 Ministries
Published October 25, 2016
What is the Hebraic understanding of the word “repent?”
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October 30, 2016 at 11:59 pm
Frank:
The root of the problem is that you Frank, have no root, no opinion, no insight, no discretion.
You are a leaf blowing in the winds of other blowhards whose understanding of the message and life of Jesus is slim to none, much like you own.
It is no small wonder then, that you have no opinion, no input, no voice, no credibility and no influence about anything you say because the fact is you don’t have anything to say…… nothing……you let other blowhards do your talking for you because, as we say down on the farm, you are merely a dumbbell waiting to be pressed.
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October 31, 2016 at 7:17 pm
Naz,
A question if you please: in light of your comments in post # 5. (“I think it is healthy for our understanding to read scripture in the correct context and to know the actual meaning of what the scriptures are saying. In many cases we should “test” our understanding by asking questions.
For example, we know that Jesus died for our sins once and for all and that we receive this forgiveness when we are born again. I think every Christian would agree with that statement.
Question : Why then do we see altars filled with mostly born again believers sobbing and asking God for forgiveness ? Aren’t we already forgiven ? Is our asking for forgiveness trigger God to “re-forgive” us again and again ? Is this biblical?”) how do you explain the following Scripture?
Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.”
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November 1, 2016 at 6:46 am
Frank, 2 responses to your questions.
1) Obedience comes from the heart because of God’s Spirit living in me not from commandments written on stone. Jesus will never lead me to sin so I trust Him not only for my salvation but for my daily living. As you have received Him so walk in Him. This is not about obligation but about desire and want to. I follow Jesus, not Moses.
2) The passage in Matt 18 is about forgiving each other, it is not about God’s forgiveness of us, although it is His forgiveness that enables us to forgive each other seventy times seven. God’s forgiveness is once and for all and you do not need to “ask” Him for something He has already done. Among ourselves however, we must live in peace day to day and sometimes that means apologies and asking for forgiveness of each other. There is no blood sacrifice between man and man although it is because of Christ’s sacrifice that we forgive each other. So God’s forgiveness of us and our forgiveness of each other are related, but they are not the same.
Let us suppose that every time we sin we need to ask God for forgiveness. What does this say about the blood of Christ ?
In the old covenant, they made atonement once a year for all the sins of the people. So the blood of bulls and goats covered sins for one years worth of sins but yet every time we sin today we presumably have to ask God again and again to forgive our sins. So this tells me that the blood of bulls and goats has more power over sin than the sacrifice of Christ ! Now we know that’s not the case. So Biblically and logically Matt 18 breaks down if that verse is used to condone the practice of asking God for forgiveness every time we sin.
I am not saying that a person will not feel regret or remorse for what they have done and then feel the need to talk to their Father about it. But that’s a totally different conversation than sobbing and pleading for forgiveness.
Naz
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November 1, 2016 at 7:48 am
Naz,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. For the record, I follow Jesus/Yahshua too, not Moses or any one else. But I do find in Scripture ample proof from Yahshua’s own words that He gave full credibility to the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms [Luke 24:44]. As it’s widely recognized God reveals Himself in two Books: Scripture and nature.
Although we have our differences I’ll make one point. I see our adoption into YHWH’s family as a process involving our justification, sanctification and glorification [2 Corinthians 3:18]. Obviously, we’re not all at the identical stage in that process. Our road to glory/perfection involves many stumbles and falls. But God our Father and our Messiah Yahshua always fortify and encourage us [Leviticus 20:26; 1 Kings 8:61; Matthew 5:48]. It’s for this reason I know there will be times in my own struggle when it will be necessary to come to Him in repentance asking forgiveness and in the sure conviction that He’ll grant mercy “up to seventy times seven” and beyond.
– Frank
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November 1, 2016 at 9:07 am
Frank:
You said to Naz in Post 42:
“It’s for this reason I know there will be times in my own struggle when it will be necessary to come to Him in repentance asking forgiveness……….”
But that’s the whole point Naz was making…that if you are there already, as a born again person, there is no need to keep coming to him for forgiveness; therefore, you just need to be repentant in your own heart and mind and you’re there again already.
As for the seventy X seven times, that is not referring to the forgiveness of a born again person by Jesus or the Father, that refers only to the struggles and missteps we make to each other, as men, in which case then you need to apologize or confess your errors to your brother and/or vice versa for your brothers regarding their missstepsvand in that regard then we are to be prepared to forgive each other as men of goodness not seven times but every time using the metaphor that seventy x seven implies.
So your comment as noted indicates that you either missed Naz’ ‘s point or ignored it.
Which leads me to say that I respect Naz because he makes his points in his own words unlike others who rarely do and posts the points of view of others instead of using their own words which on this occasion you used your own words to comment and that is commendable and I applaud you for doing so instead of using 119 ministry to say what’s on your mind….
There, I’ve said it again!
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November 1, 2016 at 10:07 am
Frank.
I also give credibility to the Law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms. I do not disregard the old testament scripture but it must be read in the proper context with our new covenant “glasses” otherwise we will be very confused.
On your second point, I don’t see our adoption in God’s family as a process. We are already justified and sanctified by the blood of Jesus because it is a finished work that Jesus did, not us. Glorification comes later at the resurrection, but that is a future event.
A process insinuates that we need to climb the ladder in order to reach God. This is the trap of the enemy as God climbed down the ladder to reach us. The law of Moses showed us the impossibility of achieving righteousness, Jesus magnified that in Matthew 5 and 6. Jesus came to fulfill the law and be the end of the law for those who believe. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places. That is a spiritual reality and our spiritual geography, the process is complete and there is nothing that can be done to change that. Otherwise it is no longer by grace that we are saved.
We are already fully perfected and justified in our new man , in our spirit where Christ dwells. That is different than the mind where we need to be renewed daily and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. You can be perfected in your spirit but still be growing in your mind and behavior. Jesus Himself grew in wisdom and stature. Does that mean He was not already the perfect Son of God ? Of course He was, He was learning and growing but His spirit was one with the Father already.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
As for asking for forgiveness, God’s economy is a blood economy. Sin is forgiven by the shedding of blood, not by apologies, sobbing, penance and good works. This is the worldly way in which people forgive each other. Those without Christ will not forgive unless there is a confession and an apology given. This is not how God operates. Jesus Christ is God’s means of forgiveness for those who will receive Him. So yes, we take our struggles to God and ask for wisdom, help, guidance etc… but know that your Father is not waiting for you to grovel, rather He’s running towards you like the prodigal’s father.
Here are some scripture references.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Naz
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November 1, 2016 at 10:55 am
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Mark 2:17)
If you’ll be patient and observe closely then you’ll recognize the family resemblance:
The Spirit of Adoption (Romans 8:14-16) John MacArthur
Grace to You
Published on Jul 9, 2012
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November 1, 2016 at 11:23 am
Naz,
Concerning your comment in post # 44.: “I also give credibility to the Law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms. I do not disregard the old testament scripture but it must be read in the proper context with our new covenant “glasses” otherwise we will be very confused.” You might want to verify your diopter.
Two views of Scripture in perilous opposition:
The Sabbath and the Mark of God Part 9: Did Jewish Christians Worship on Both Days? Dual Covenant
Corner Fringe Ministries
Published on Oct 25, 2016
Please enjoy Daniel Joseph’s series about the history and the importance of the sabbath!
If you have any questions or comments about any of our videos, please contact us through our webpage: http://www.cornerfringe.com
Bible verses covered:
Numbers 11:4
Jeremiah 18:11-12
Matthew 6:9-13; 15:3, 7-9; 16:18
Acts 2:46-47; 15:4
Romans 2:13, 26-27; 8:6
2 Timothy 3:15-16
Sources cited:
Why Did Jewish Christians Worship on Both Days? Dr. Grant Jeffrey
The Church History of Eusebius (Bk 3, Ch 27)
Council of Laodicea Canon XXIX
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November 1, 2016 at 11:25 am
We are sons of God by who we are not by what we do. James says that we all stumble in many ways but that does not nullify our adoption or our standing as sons of God and heirs of the promise.
Look at Abraham, the bible says that Abe was justified by faith. Did you read what Abe did as he was waiting for God’s promise of a son ? The great Abraham had a son with another woman. That would be called adultery today… yet he is still called the father of the faithful. Do you see how Abraham believed God but that he still did wrong things ?
Then there is David, here’s a guy that sent his general to die in the front lines so he could take his wife ! Nice guy, oh by the way this same model of morality wrote most of the Psalms and was a man after God’s own heart. Huh?
There is a brand of Christianity out there that wants to validate us based on our performance. This is a lie from the pit of Hell. You do NOT achieve righteousness by your law keeping or good works. Righteousness is what Christ imparts to you as a free gift and then you walk from the new heart He gave you. How can we walk righteously if we are not already righteous at the core ?
If that is the case, then Christianity is a lie and the gospel is trying to tell people to behave like someone they are not. However, if we are already justified, sanctified and declared righteous, then we can walk consistent to who we are spiritually.
The family resemblance is Christ in you, the hope of glory !
Naz
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November 1, 2016 at 11:36 am
Re: post # 43.:
If only you could understand the concept of original sources.
John Lennon – Gimme Some Truth (Lyrics)
TheNirveatles
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November 1, 2016 at 11:58 am
Naz,
The salient point regarding those people you mention and more (Abel, Noah, Rahab, Sarah, Jacob etc.)is they came to REPENTANCE and OBEYED God.
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November 1, 2016 at 12:19 pm
Naz,
What do you surmise? Why was Jesus so insistent with Peter?
John 21
14 This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead.
15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”
16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep.”
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November 1, 2016 at 12:37 pm
A SPARK IGNITED:
Jesus’ redemptive act as a witness to the world was not that he died or that his blood was spilled (that was merely a carry over by the Pharisaical Leaders of the Mosaic Law offerings and sacrifices that Jesus had absolutely no delight in and was sick and tired of religion’s useless rituals for the remission of sin; Paul and others, including present day Christians still perpetuate the phoney idea that the blood of Christ purified and sanctified and forgave men their sins..NO! the crucifixion is what it took to awaken a sleepy ritualistic society to open their eyes to a useless tradition of sacrifices and finally understand the goal: to celebrate a life well-lived and not the death that kills it.) And
That Jesus H Christ represented the living embodiment of goodness within humanity willing to lay down his life to prove it. And he did.
He lay down his life but that is not the end of the story. He proved by his life but was only understood when he did not return. He left his legacy of life to linger in the minds of men once and for all and it worked……… to some small extent at first as the sprinkling grains of yeast penetrated the dough and leavened its way up the ladder of time to the bread of life, revealed.
Revealed finally when his life, like the parable of the leaven, was likened unto heaven. Working its way through mankind slowly, little by little until it be accomplished and we are the loaves of the new offering, our bodies, to give a physical, visible expression without, intimately identified with a spiritual, invisible entity within.
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November 1, 2016 at 1:24 pm
“All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD/YHWH your God:” (Deuteronomy 28:2)
Heirs of God (Romans 8:17-18) John MacArthur
Grace to You
Published on Apr 16, 2012
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November 1, 2016 at 1:46 pm
Re: post # 51.:
“Jesus’ redemptive act as a witness to the world was not that he died or that his blood was spilled (that was merely a carry over by the Pharisaical Leaders of the Mosaic Law offerings and sacrifices that Jesus had absolutely no delight in and was sick and tired of religion’s useless rituals for the remission of sin; Paul and others, including present day Christians still perpetuate the phoney idea that the blood of Christ purified and sanctified and forgave men their sins..NO! the crucifixion is what it took to awaken a sleepy ritualistic society to open their eyes to a useless tradition of sacrifices and finally understand the goal: to celebrate a life well-lived and not the death that kills it.)”
* * * * *
What’s sleepy and phoney about post # 51. is the “intellect” that produced it.
Provide original source material to corroborate and substantiate your ASSertions; so we’ll avoid all the verbal flatulence which always lingers [ob]noxious & hazardous. Especially when you’re “igniting sparks”. You’ve laid quite a loaf there, S & M.
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November 2, 2016 at 11:28 am
I know the obsessive poster of useless videos just doesn’t get it but I must try one more time if not seventy by seven times.
I am always perplexed why their are so many denominations in Christianity.
You see regardless of who the preacher is in any of “the twinkling of an eye” videos they all have one common ID.
No matter what clever points they make throughout their 40, 50 120 minute videos that show off their biblical prowess and scholarly skills they all reach the same exact conclusion at the end: that they have exercised their due diligence and reached the same conclusion by different angles….Supernatural Nonsense.
It’s inevitable that the blind will reach the same blind conclusion every blessed time. It’s the “Predictable Christian Syndrome” and you still don’t get it and they still don’t get it and you will never get it until you get out of your dogmatic supernaturalism.
My prayer, wish, hope, desire, longing, yearning, inclination, urge, whim, craving, hunger; is that one day in a moment of time, in “the twinkling of the eye” will flash the obvious truth to get out of supernaturalistic thought patterns and suddenly open your mind that, that was the same prayer preached throughout the life Jesus, not by his followers who never gave up on the supernaturalistic notion he railed against for 3 and a half years. But Christ himself. Jesus was not a supernaturalist so why did his followers revert to the Mosaic, Pharisaical nonsense?
Supernatural belief had them and still has you hooked and hoodwinked by ritual tradition of ancient men who knew nothing about disease control, meteorology, electricity, magnetism, moon cycles, tide turnings, the wheel, or control of fire. BUT boy did they know about Gods; they knew everything about Gods. Is you eye starting to wink and twink? If you are still alive you still have time to wake your mind from the tomb to walk alive instead of walking dead. Life, it’s just what dead men need.
He suffered a death-like yours on the cross so that you and I now can share a resurrection like his (Please do not, not notice, the metaphor.)
Come alive.
That’s why the Lord Jesus said, I am come that you might have life, just what dead men need, it’s the only cure for death. It’s death that abolished life. And when the Lord Jesus was manifest, it was to the end that death might be abolished and immortality and life be brought to light. Well we’re very nearly through, not quite, very nearly. Stick it out.
You see we just touched very, very briefly upon the divine logic in the animal kingdom with a body and a soul but no human spirit but within the soul, a computerized behavior program called instinct governing migratory paths, feeding habits, mating seasons, building skills, that computerized program that bring the salmon after 3 and a half years way out in the Pacific and up the Alaska coast back to the mouth of the Columbia river to fight their way back to get to the precise, not the approximate, the precise place where they were placed as a little baby fish nearly 4 years ago., spawn and die. That’s why you can stand off the coast of San Diego in southern California and watch the whales at a certain part of the year go down to a little cove off the Mexican coast where year after year they reproduce. That’s why you can go to a bunch of trees near Los Altos, not far from San Francisco and see butterflies and they’ll be there every summer but they don’t reproduce there; they reproduce, for a butterfly an incredible distance away, 200 miles. They lay eggs, the eggs become a caterpillar, the caterpillar becomes a chrysalis, and the chrysalis breaks open and becomes a new generation butterfly. And that new generation butterfly will go 200 miles back to that clump of trees. Now tell me this, if you were a butterfly and then an egg and then a caterpillar and then a chrysalis and then a new generation butterfly, do you think you’d find your way back to Los Altos? Some of you can’t even find your way around your own city .
So in the 12th of John and the 24th verse he says verily, verily I say to you unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it remains, it lives, it goes on living, alone, never becomes more. But if it dies, it brings forth much fruit. You don’t put a seed in the ground so that it may be destroyed and disintegrate, you put a seed into the ground so that the life that is in it may be released through death in resurrection and shared by others. That’s why Christ was crucified. He was crucified on the cross so that his life, might being restored to him in resurrection, may now be restored to you and to me in resurrection and that’s why I must put the seed into your mind about the truth of Jesus message.
Our ancestors were a bunch of ignoramuses and you still want to live there with them in the cave.
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November 2, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Post 53:
You want original sources yo substantiate my assertions. Unlike you I don’t meed a multitude of ministries to tell me what the bible says and neither did Jesus because we both interpret scriptures perfectly. I don’t need a multitude of ministries to tell me what the bible clearly says and what Jesus clearly messaged the world. Unlike yourself I do not follow the Masses(with a silent “M”) They have lots of hindsight but no foresight. Here read it for your self
Isaiah 1:11-17The Message (MSG)
11-12 “Why this frenzy of sacrifices?”
God’s asking.
“Don’t you think I’ve had my fill of burnt sacrifices,
rams and plump grain-fed calves?
Don’t you think I’ve had my fill
of blood from bulls, lambs, and goats?
When you come before me,
whoever gave you the idea of acting like this,
Running here and there, doing this and that—
all this sheer commotion in the place provided for worship?
13-17 “Quit your worship charades.
I can’t stand your trivial religious games:
Monthly conferences, weekly Sabbaths, special meetings—
meetings, meetings, meetings—I can’t stand one more!
Meetings for this, meetings for that. I hate them!
You’ve worn me out!
I’m sick of your religion, religion, religion,
while you go right on sinning.
When you put on your next prayer-performance,
I’ll be looking the other way.
No matter how long or loud or often you pray,
I’ll not be listening.
And do you know why? Because you’ve been tearing
people to pieces, and your hands are bloody.
Go home and wash up.
Clean up your act.
Sweep your lives clean of your evildoings
so I don’t have to look at them any longer.
Say no to wrong.
Learn to do good.
Work for justice.
Help the down-and-out.
Stand up for the homeless.
Go to bat for the defenceless.
The Sacrifice of Jesus was to put his life on the line to bring awareness to you an d to me.
The old plan was only a hint of the good things in the new plan. Since that old “law plan” wasn’t complete in itself, it couldn’t complete those who followed it. No matter how many sacrifices were offered year after year, they never added up to a complete solution. If they had, the worshipers would have gone merrily on their way, no longer dragged down by their sins. But instead of removing awareness of sin, when those animal sacrifices were repeated over and over they actually heightened awareness and guilt. The plain fact is that bull and goat blood can’t get rid of sin. That is what is meant by this prophecy, put in the mouth of Christ:
You don’t want sacrifices and offerings year after year;
you’ve prepared a body for me for a sacrifice.
It’s not fragrance and smoke from the altar
that whet your appetite.
So I said, “I’m here to do it your way, O God,
the way it’s described in your Book.”
When he said, “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings,” he was referring to practices according to the old plan. When he added, “I’m here to do it your way,” he set aside the first in order to enact the new plan—God’s way—by which we are made fit for God by the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus.
(Hebrews 10)
“Hence when Christ entered into the world he said sacrifices and offerings you have not desired”; in other words, the pragmatic, externals of mere religion are not satisfying to you Father. It isn’t that a man goes once a week in a piece of real estate. Or simply undergoes as a matter of tradition and form certain sacraments. Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired but instead Father you have made ready a body for me to offer you, father.
“Then I said” verse 7, “Lo here I am come to do your will oh God, to fulfill what is written of me in the volume of the book. The volume of what book? Well the Old Testament Scriptures. Thank you Father for the body that you prepared for me to offer. Miraculously conceived, fashioned in the womb of a virgin girl according to the scriptures, born at Bethlehem of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Judah, the house of David, according to the scriptures. Thank you Father for the body that you have prepared for me to offer you so that I can do your will oh God everything that is written of me in the volume of the book. Because Father we know that before the world was, the story was written. I am the lamb slain before the foundation of the world but the time has come Father for that story that we wrote to be told in terms of the flesh and blood of my incarnate humanity so I want you to know Father that the body you prepared for me and gave me when I was born at Bethlehem I now present to you to do your will. His body.
There is absolutely nothing supernatural about this.
The Parable of the Leaven (also called the Parable of the yeast) is one of the shortest parables of Jesus. … In both places it immediately follows the Parable of the Mustard Seed, which shares this parable’s theme of the Kingdom of Heaven growing from small beginnings.
Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
(Matthew 13:33; cf. Luke 13:20-21).
Therein hangs, the ASSertions(your word for the message of Jesus Christ) his message as contained in post 5. The message of Jesus you slight and mock just like the Scribes and the Pharisees did in his day.
After the parables, Jesus went preaching throughout the villages and towns, he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
A bystander said, “Master, will only a few be saved?”
He said, “Whether few or many is none of your business. Put your mind on your life with God. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires your total attention.
A lot of you are going to assume that you’ll sit down to God’s salvation banquet just because you’ve been hanging around the neighborhood all your lives.
Well, one day you’re going to be banging on the door, wanting to get in, but you’ll find the door locked and the Master saying, ‘Sorry, you’re not on my guest list.’ (Luke 13:23-25
The Son of Man speaking!
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November 2, 2016 at 12:43 pm
ON FOLLOWING THE CROWD:
The one who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The one who walks alone, is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been.
To break with the crowd is a nobel; to walk without the crowd is courageous.
Jesus broke with the crowd and walked without the crowd. Jesus was both nobel and courageous. He went against the supernatural crowd that was unnaturally hostile to his message. They perceived his life and message of common sense through natural eyes but it twinkled their toes, turned up their nose and they became his foes.
Always drink upstream from the herd.
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
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November 2, 2016 at 12:47 pm
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Good judgment comes from experience, and experience; well, a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you’re full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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November 2, 2016 at 2:00 pm
So Leo, you agree that it is the sacrifice of Christ that takes away sins ?
If you read the verses below it is clear that it is through the blood of Christ and the offering of his body that our sins are taken away, not through the old testament sacrifice of bulls and goats. The death of Christ provides forgiveness of sins and ultimately salvation. Do you believe this ?
This is clearly written in Hebrews and there is nothing more plainer in all of scripture regarding Christ’s death and the efficacy of His blood for our salvation. There is no other way to interpret these verses in light of the fact that the gospels give clear evidence that Jesus died on the cross.
If you deny this then you are deceiving yourself and I can’t help you.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Naz
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November 2, 2016 at 2:29 pm
Nah
I already mentioned that the sacrifice of Jesus was “putting his life on the line”; that is, offering his body and blood through the crucifixion process, not the death of the body necessarily which everybody is quick to infer including the disciples who were never privy to the plan for escape from the tomb and were never told so that the resurrection was always inferred as resurrection from the dead instead of resurrection from the place of the dead and referred to simply as the “Resurrected from Dead”.
This is also made known previously when Jesus said the only sign this generation will have is the sign of Jonah who was save from the dead by rising from out of the belly of Sheol and washed up on the shore thereby escaping death.
Of course this is difficult, if not impossible, for Christians who have been conveniently mislead for thousands of years by the supernaturalists. And the Pharisees also themselves believed in the resurrection of the dead body.
Acts 23:
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
So you see Naz the resurrection of the dead, “bodily”, was already imbedded in the mindsets of the supernatural masses as a religious component that creeped subsequently into the Catholic movement (Christian) as clearly outlined by Paul and even more so after Jesus appeared “bodily” after healing, when he escaped from the tomb. And scripture surely confirms that:
Luke 24:38-44King James Version (KJV)
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
In other words:
While they were saying all this, Jesus appeared to them and said, “Peace be with you.” They thought they were seeing a ghost and were scared half to death. He continued with them, “Don’t be upset, and don’t let all these doubting questions take over. Look at my hands; look at my feet—it’s really me. Touch me. Look me over from head to toe. A ghost doesn’t have muscle and bone like this.” As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet. They still couldn’t believe what they were seeing. It was too much; it seemed too good to be true.
He asked, “Do you have any food here?” They gave him a piece of leftover fish they had cooked and honeycomb. He took it and ate it right before their eyes.
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November 2, 2016 at 5:15 pm
S & M,
Regretfully it must be said your last post (# 59.) is just more of the same drivel you always run with. You continue in denial of Messiah’s atoning death, resurrection and the fact that His death was propitiation for our sin which sanctifies us by His shed blood. You still fail to provide independent substantiation for your absurd ASSertions. Aren’t you cognizant of the Biblical premise that it takes two to three witnesses to substantiate claims? Who are your witnesses? Don’t dish-up more of your flatulent laced pseudo hermeneutics as corroboration. Produce competent, coherent, credible, independent testimony as evidence.
Jude 1
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18 that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.”
19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4
4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Peter 3
13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
You can’t twist Scripture to suit profane purposes. Scripture serves the Author, the Holy Spirit of YHWH:
Isaiah 55:11
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
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November 2, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Sweet F A
PART ONE
So typically blind.
Jesus offers you the same answer he offered the Pharisees when they asked him by what authority do you do these things
“……..provide independent substantiation for your absurd ASSertions…………. Who are your witnesses?……….
……..Produce competent, coherent, credible, independent testimony as evidence……
….of your authority to say and do such things…..
I encourage you to continue your research and commend you for your diligence if you have the persistence enough to find it. There are too few seekers of truth and too many seekers of approval. Even Jesus commented on this: Looking to one and other for approval, how can you do what is right.
You pore over the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. But there’s no eternal life to be found in the bible, for these scriptures you read, testify of me and you will not come to me so that you may have the eternal life that only I can give you, instead you have a dead bible, and a dead religion and it won’t be long before you’ll have a dead Christ on your hands because if you don’t come to the one of whom it testifies you’ll crucify him again and again.
How can believers do what is right, know what is right, hear what I say, when they constantly look to each other for approval and are not concerned about the true approval that comes from the authority within of which I said, “the Kingdom is within you”. And where does the Father reside? In the Kingdom! Therefore The Father and I are one. Where do you fit?
Luke 6:26 ”There’s trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests—look how many scoundrel preachers were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular. :-?
John 5:41-44 ”I’m not interested in crowd approval. Because I know you and your crowds. I know that love, especially the Father’s love, is not on your working agenda. I came with the authority of my Father, and you either dismiss me or avoid me. If another came, acting self-important, you would welcome him with open arms. How do you expect to get anywhere with the Father when you spend all your time jockeying for position with each other, ranking your rivals and ignoring the Father?
John 12:42-43 On the other hand, a considerable number from the ranks of the leaders did believe. But because of the Pharisees, they didn’t come out in the open with it. They were afraid of getting kicked out of the meeting place. When push came to shove they cared more for human approval than for the Father’s glory.
Did you know, and I know you don’t because you are indoctrinated by Urination to the mindset of the clergy who themselves are Urinated by Dogma BUT listen to what Jesus said when he announced his Mission in the Synagogue and more importantly the reaction of the people who heard him for the first time…in those days they didn’t use words like you use “…..idiot, troll, big dummy…..” but their reaction was exactly the same to jesus what your words today are to me. See the parallels if you can, through the haze of Yourination:
THE MISSION STATEMENT
DEBUNKING THE SUPERNATURAL
THE CONSEQUENCES
1. You’re right if you say Church Dogma links Jesus with the supernatural gods of man but Jesus himself hated the church,ritualisms,religion,most all the clergy whom he called poisonous vipers,lovers of the highest seats and the accolades of men, wearing flowing robes to be seen, devourers of widows’ properties and making a lengthy show of words to satisfy the masses who were so bamboozled by their supernatural nonsense that Jesus made his famous 8 fold indictment of the clergy in Matt 23.
As to what Jesus contributed? Jesus gave the presence of his peace by his life, not through his death; the clergy has it all backward by claiming Jesus gave the world life through his death, uh uh. Couldn’t be farther from the truth. Jesus gave life to the world through his life not his death but supernaturalism caters to the residual reptilian ritualistic brain of humans on which religion thrives.
Jesus denigrated the Mosaic Law of Revenge, eye for and eye and so on which peeved the clergy because he testified to their incredible religious insanity. Instead of the Revenge/Punishment Model, Jesus taught them the principles of love, forgiveness, charity and compassion for all mankind especially the poor and the downtrodden whom the Scribes and Pharisees detested, rejecting Jesus for befriending tax collectors and sinners, the lame and disabled, calling Jesus a gluttonous drunk.
Furthermore, Jesus brought hope to the poor and exposed the evil of Church Dogma. Please don’t ever think Jesus was anything more than an ordinary man with extraordinary common sense who put himself in harms way to show that the masses were worthy: to have their wounds bandaged, the disabled helped, the hungry fed, the homeless clothed; giving them hope that the clergy hitherto had nothing but loathing for. What Jesus read at the synagogue from the OT started his mission as follows:
According to custom, Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the scriptures from the book of the prophet Isaiah that was handed to him. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted,to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind (blinded by clergy and religious insanity) to set at liberty those who are oppressed;to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
He closed the book and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. He said, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
He went further and denounced the clergy’s supernaturalism with two examples regarding the famine and a cleansed leper after which:all those in the synagogue,when they heard these things,were filled with wrath and rose up and thrust him out of the city;and they led Him to the brow of the hill
………to throw him down head first over the cliff but he gave them the slip and was on his way.
That was the beginning of the mission to help the poor and bring back the only God there is, the “Father” within you that is the spirit guide and light inside every human being, not the supernatural magical hocus pocus gods created by the clergy for pence and power. His mission was to open the eyes of the people to the reality that Truth was the authority and not the Authority (of the clergy) was truth. END!
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November 2, 2016 at 5:58 pm
Sweet F A:
PART TWO…….
I know you love giving lessons to others because you believe you have the right to do so and then to deny them the same right without your interference because you act just like the Scribes and the Pharisees in your demands requiring approval from others
What is the final authority of life? Should I obey the state, or should I obey my conscience? Which is higher, the church, or the secular government? Should I walk by reason or by faith? Should I follow science or religion? These are questions every one of us must face, and we are helped greatly by the words of our Lord in this account.
In the midst of his second cleansing of the temple, Jesus overturned the tables of the money-changers, and swept out all the commercialized traffic. Then he did a very arresting thing, which only Mark records: He stopped the offerings and sacrifices of the Mosaic system. Mark says, “He would not allow any one to carry anything through the temple.” This meant that he stopped the traffic of the priests, as they were carrying out their normal duties connected with the sacrifices, and he would not allow them to continue.
That was a very dangerous and daring thing for Jesus to do, and everyone was shocked and stunned by his action. These sacrifices belonged to the Levitical system that God had commanded Moses to set into operation. They were the heart and center of the life of the nation. Yet here was Jesus, on his own authority, bringing this priestly traffic to a halt. This would be equivalent to Billy Graham walking up to the pulpit of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas, and ripping apart the King James Version of the Bible. Blasphemy! Everyone would be stunned by such an action.
Now Mark records the reaction that follows, Chapter 11, Verse 27:
And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, and they said to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?” (Mark 11:27-28 RSV)
You can sense the bluntness and the sternness in their voices. Now the fat’s in the fire, for sure. There will be no more fun and games, the issues are right down to bare bedrock. They know it, and Jesus knows it. So they come to him with the ultimate question, “Who gave you the authority to do this? Who told you that you could act like this?” That question is behind all human behavior. When you refine any issue down to its essentials, what you have left is the whole issue of authority in life. Why do you act the way you do? How do you justify what you say and do? No man ever is his own ultimate authority. We all refer to something other than ourselves — something that compels us, or something we feel is important — that governs our decisions. When we deal with this question of authority, therefore, we are dealing with what is absolutely basic and fundamental to all human behavior.
Now these were no second-rate individuals who came to Jesus. This was a very imposing delegation made up of Caiaphas, the high priest, and Annas, his father-in-law, who was regarded as virtual high priest; and the scribes, the body of men who interpreted the Law of Moses; and the elders, those who were officially appointed to serve in the Sanhedrin, the ruling body of the nation. This was an imposing, august council — the Jewish heads of state, under the overarching rule of Rome — who came to Jesus with this question.
Now, in the answer Jesus gave to these men, we have one of the most amazing accounts in Scripture. What our Lord does under that moment of pressure is very revealing. The first thing he does, coolly, and with utter calmness, is to examine their credentials. Then, he predicts their ultimate downfall. In Verse 29 of Chapter 11, we see him examining their credentials:
Jesus said to them, “I will ask you a question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men? Answer me.” (Mark 11:29-30 RSV)
Notice the directness of that word; he puts them right on the spot.
And they argued with one another, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ But shall we say, ‘From men?'” — they were afraid of the people, for all held that John was a real prophet. So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.” (Mark 11:31-33 RSV)
I love that answer! But notice that the Lord seized upon a most remarkable test. He asked about the baptism of John, not the ministry of John. Nor did he ask about John himself. He asked, “Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?” You see, the baptism of John was something different, something new and startling, that had never occurred before. The priests, of course, had many washings, connected with their duties under the Levitical system, but this was always done in the temple according to a prescribed ritual. But John was different. John was not a priest, yet he baptized. And he did it in the rivers and streams — wherever he could find enough water. Because it was something quite new, John’s baptism would immediately arouse the question, “By what authority do you give us a new ritual in Israel?” So Jesus seizes upon that, and says to these men, “What do you think of this innovation of John’s? Was it from God or from men?” Notice again how he simplifies the issue, clearing away all nonessentials. All authority is either of God or men; there are no other authorities. We are either trying to please God and obey him, being responsive to truth that he reveals, and responsible to his power; or we are trying to please men, to manipulate them and use them, or to gain something from them.
Now it is clear from their answer that they knew he had them in a dilemma. In chess you call this a “fork,” where, no matter what you do, you are going to lose a piece. These men knew that whatever they said, they were trapped. If they said, “It was from God,” the Lord had them. He would say, “Why then didn’t you accept him?” And if they said, “It was from men,” they knew the multitude standing around them would be very displeased, and they dared not say that either. So they copped out, and said, “We don’t know.” And Jesus said, “All right; I won’t tell you either.” But he did not leave them there; he went on to expose their utter dishonesty. By their answer they revealed that they really did not care whether John’s baptism was from God or not. They were not interested in the truth, nor were they willing to answer that question at all; they only cared about serving their own interests. Thus they revealed themselves as being opposed to God’s authority, acting only out of the intrigues and craftiness of men.
Now our Lord proceeds to make that fact visible to everybody by telling a story. He takes the attack, and predicts their ultimate downfall:
And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a pit for the wine press, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country.” (Mark 12:1 RSV)
Now the scribes and Pharisees and chief priests would immediately recognize that story. Jesus is borrowing almost the exact words of Isaiah Chapter 5, where the nation is described as a vineyard brought out of Egypt, and planted in a choice land. God had dug a pit and built a tower to protect his vineyard, and had come looking for fruit. These Jewish leaders would immediately recognize that this was about them. Jesus goes on,
“When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. And they took him and beat him, and sent him away empty-handed. Again he sent to them another servant, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. And he sent another, and him they killed; and so with many others, some they beat and some they killed. He had still one other, a beloved son; finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ And they took him and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.” (Mark 12:2-8 RSV)
Can you imagine the boldness and daring of our Lord who, in this veiled and yet very clear way threw this parable right into their teeth! He is describing to them who they are, and what they are doing. And, indirectly, he is answering their question, “By what authority do you do these things?” He says, “Here is my authority: I am the owner of the vineyard. I am the rightful heir to it. I am the beloved Son whom the Father has sent. You’ve killed the prophets, stoned and beat those who came from God; now here I am, the Son.” And he told these men what they would do: They would beat him, kill him, and cast him out of the vineyard. Jesus is under no delusions as to what is going to happen to him. But then he goes on to predict what would ultimately happen, that God has the final answer. He asks,
“What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants, and give the vineyard to others.” (Mark 12:9 RSV)
In Mark’s account it looks as though Jesus answers his own question, but Matthew makes it clear that Jesus asks the question, and it is the scribes and the chief priests who give the answer. Jesus tells the story, and says, “Now, in that story, what would the owner of the vineyard do?” Matthew records that the scribes and chief priests said, “Why, he’ll come and destroy the tenants, and give the vineyard to someone else.” Jesus says, “You are right. You have judged yourselves:
“Have you never read the scripture:
‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”
And they tried to arrest him, but feared the multitude, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them; so they left him and went away. (Mark 12:10-12 RSV)
Theirs is a false religious authority that presumes to dictate, and to usurp power and authority that was never rightfully theirs. Jesus makes this crystal clear. But he says, “That is not the end. When human authorities act that way, you can remember that God is not yet through.” And what he said here actually took place. On the day of resurrection, the one whom the builders rejected indeed became the foundation of the corner. As the resurrected Lord he stood with his disciples and said, “All power, all power in heaven and on earth has been given unto me,” (Matthew 28:18b). He is the Lord of everything, in control of history, the ultimate determiner of all that happens in human affairs.
Forty years later, Roman armies came in, surrounded the city of Jerusalem and captured it, and the chief priests, the scribes and the elders were led away in chains into captivity, to be dispersed among the nations. God did exactly what he said he would do in this parable. This is a lesson to us, and to all who read this account, that man’s authority is always limited, and can never be equated with God’s rule and authority in the affairs of men. Men’s authority is always limited as to duration. Men can sit on the seat of unrighteous, unjust power for just so long, and then something happens to sweep them out of office.
In the Sunday school class this morning, Bob Smith was quoting J. B. Philips, who said, “Remember that the powers-that-be will soon be the powers-that-have-been.” The prophet Ezekiel had said that God’s process throughout history is declared in these words, “I will overturn, overturn, overturn, till he shall come whose right it is to reign.” No evil power can remain in control very long. God’s hand is at work in history to overthrow and to replace one power with another. Man’s power therefore is always limited in duration.
In the next account we have our Lord’s encounter with another form of human authority, Verse 13:
And they[the chief priests and scribes got together and sent another delegation] sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to entrap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men, but truly teach the way of God.” (Mark 12:13-14a RSV)
What oily scoundrels these were, coming with such pious sounding words! And yet they were made up of two parties who hated each others’ guts. The Pharisees and the Herodians were political enemies who got together only because they were both confronted with the threat of Jesus to their vested interests. They came to Jesus with a question all worked out:
“Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?” (Mark 12:14b RSV)
Did you wrestle with that a couple of months ago? Yes, we still ask ourselves this question. Should you pay taxes to a power that uses them wrongly? Is it right to pay your good, hard-earned money to a government that wastes it, or puts it to a purpose that you adamantly oppose? Should you, or should you not? That is a great moral question.
But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a coin, and let me look at it.” And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar’s.” Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were amazed at him. (Mark 12:15-17 RSV)
I remember reading some time ago of a brilliant young lawyer, who had been raised a pagan and had no use for Christianity. Someone had given him the New Testament, and he was reading it through. When he came to this account in Mark, he read this question with great interest, for he himself had recently been involved with just such a dilemma. He said he could hardly read fast enough to see what Jesus would have to say. When the full impact of the actions of Jesus hit this man, he was utterly astonished. He dropped the Bible, and said to himself, “That’s the most amazing wisdom!” For our Lord did not try to answer the question directly. In that wonderful way he had, he called for a coin — he had to borrow one, for he had none of his own — and held it up. “Whose picture is on this coin?” he asked. They said, “Caesar’s.” He said, “All right, then it must be Caesar’s money. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. But God has got his stamp upon you, so render to God the things that are God’s.”
He shows us clearly that human authority is not only limited in duration; it is limited in its scope. It deals with only a part of man. The secular government is ordained of God. The Apostle Paul tells us that plainly, and Peter says the same thing; “Honor the emperor as supreme, and all the governors who are sent by him,” (1 Peter 2:13-14, 2:17). Jesus himself acknowledges, as does all of Scripture, that God is behind secular government — even bad government. For the emperor that Peter referred to was none other than Nero, wretched moral degenerate that he was. Yet Peter says, “Honor the emperor as supreme,” (1 Peter 2:13, 2:17 RSV). But human government, Jesus says, has only limited control over men. It has certain powers over the bodies and minds of men. It can regulate our conduct to some degree, and has the right to influence and regulate our attitudes and actions and what we say, and how we say it. But there is one area in human life over which secular power has no control, and that is the human spirit. Secular power cannot legislate as to whom we worship, who governs our conscience, and who constitutes the ultimate authority of life. “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.” Certain things do properly belong to Caesar; give them to him. But other things about you belong only to God, so give those to God.
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November 3, 2016 at 6:30 am
Jesus’ own words about His death.
Leo, do you need a definition of the word death ? What is your problem ?
Mar 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Naz
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November 3, 2016 at 8:10 am
S & M,
Re: posts # 61. – 62.
Again, your entire response falls flat. Here’s why:
You base your harangue on this faulty premise in post # 61. – “don’t ever think Jesus was anything more than an ordinary man with extraordinary common sense”. By doing so you disavow any vital understanding of the actual Person and works of the Messiah Yahshua / Christ Jesus.
Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God, Worship Me”? (David Wood)
Acts17Apologetics
Published on Nov 3, 2016
Muslims around the world are being trained to ask Christians, “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God, worship me,’ in those exact words?” However, if Muslims are suggesting that Jesus could only claim to be God by uttering a specific sentence, we may reply by asking, “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am only a prophet, don’t worship me,’ in those exact words?” The unreasonable demand for a particular statement, if applied consistently, would thus force Muslims to reject their own view!
Fortunately, we have a simple way to examine what Jesus said about himself. According to both the Bible and the Qur’an, there are certain claims that only God can truly make. For instance, God alone can correctly state that he created the universe. Of course, a mere human being can pronounce the words, “I created the universe,” but the statement would be false coming from anyone other than God.
Hence, if Jesus said things that can only truly be said by God, we must conclude that Jesus claimed to be God. Interestingly, Jews, Christians, and Muslims agree on many of the claims that cannot be properly made by (or about) mere human beings. In this video, we consider several examples of such claims.
You’d benefit greatly from a valid study of Luke 6. with special emphasis on this portion:
Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
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November 3, 2016 at 8:27 am
Luke 6
5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
6 On another Sabbath He entered the synagogue and was teaching; and there was a man there whose right hand was withered.
7 The scribes and the Pharisees were watching Him closely to see if He healed on the Sabbath, so that they might find reason to accuse Him.
8 But He knew what they were thinking, and He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” And he got up and came forward.
9 And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to destroy it?”
10 After looking around at them all, He said to him, “Stretch out your hand!” And he did so; and his hand was restored.
11 But they themselves were filled with rage, and discussed together what they might do to Jesus.
12 It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
Not a Messiah—THE Messiah
Grace to You
Published on Nov 2, 2016
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November 3, 2016 at 8:36 am
Naz:
Matthew 10:10
Why Tell Stories?
10 The disciples came up and asked, “Why do you tell stories?”
11-15 He replied, “You’ve been given insight into God’s kingdom. You know how it works. Not everybody has this gift, this insight; it hasn’t been given to them. Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears. That’s why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they’re blue in the face and not get it. I don’t want Isaiah’s chapter 6 forecast repeated all over again:
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
Your ears are open but you don’t hear a thing.
Your eyes are awake but you don’t see a thing.
The people are blockheads!
They stick their fingers in their ears
so they won’t have to listen;
They screw their eyes shut
so they won’t have to look,
so they won’t have to deal with me face-to-face
and let me heal them.
16-17 “But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.
What Jesus communicated to the disciples as they were embarking to the destination Jesus relayed the information about the plan of the religious establishment; the plan included all the things Jesus said, including their intention to condemn him to death, mock, scourge, spit, flog, kill and slay him by crucifixion (although the word “crucifixion” was part of the plan Jesus did not mention that word in the text you quoted)…….and that he would rise again alive the third day….also here he did not tell them the plan about the escape from the tomb plan that included members of the Sanhedrin, secret disciples who had been planning for this period of time they knew was coming and who was in regular communication with Jesus.
I know you are trying to make this complicated so you can stick with supernatural nonsense and so you refuse to consider the natural and look only for the literal text. You see but can’t see, hear but can’t understand.
How many felons have been condemned to death only to spend years before their sentence is carried out, overturned, commuted or they are released. The differentiation is between the plan and the actual execution. On the other hand a crucifixion normally resulted in death and so everybody assumed the outcome and that was what was communicated in the text. Of course!
But Jesus knew things that nobody else knew except for the members helping Jesus who had to carry out the plan after Jesus became incapacitated but before death set in……….. just as the felons who were crucified alongside Jesus were conscious and spoke while they hung on the crucifix………..Matt 27:And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
and therein ends the commentary of Matthew.
But Luke 23:32-43 embellishes his account and one might wonder, did it really happen as per Luke or Matthew? they are contradictions. Here’s Luke
32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Nevertheless the crucified were conscious for a period of time as they hung on the cross.
Communicating a plan is not the same as the unfolding of the plan and the unfolding of the plan is what I have communicated to you but which you can’t accept because you have been persuaded otherwise from obfuscators of the word. AND Great efforts were made to obscure or obfuscate the truth as Jesus noted when he said:
Matt 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
Hiding the key of knowledge is hiding the truth of knowledge for knowledge will set you free when “belief” never can.
—The “woe” in this case is uttered against those who were, by their very calling, the professed interpreters of the Law. Its form rests on the fact that each scribe or “doctor of the law,” in the full sense of the term, was symbolically admitted to his office by the delivery of a key. His work was to enter with that key into the treasure-chambers of the house of the interpreter, and to bring forth thence “things new and old” (Matthew 13:52). The sin of the “lawyers” of that time, the “divines” as we should call them, was that they claimed a monopoly of the power to interpret, and yet did not exercise the power. Wearisome minuteness, a dishonest and demoralising casuistry, fantastic legends, these took the place of a free and reverential study of the meaning of the sacred Books.
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November 3, 2016 at 8:41 am
Sweet F A:
Your Posts are “the twinkling of the eye”………… passing on the obfuscator’s hoax of literal text with the supernatural bent that Jesus too knew and debunked.
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November 3, 2016 at 8:49 am
Sweet F A
Don’t you think that I, that you, are Lord of the Sabbath too? And that Jesus just opened the door of reality to show us how faulty the Laws of religious rituals were in their justifying why they wanted to kill you for disobedience?
If you can’t see that, you’re not really looking. Take the supernatural, superstitious blinders off!
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November 3, 2016 at 12:34 pm
Leo, I think you don’t understand the simple meaning of the words death, kill, dead etc….
There is no biblical proof whatsoever that Jesus did not die. Even the most staunch Atheists would agree, based on the biblical account, Jesus of Nazareth died by crucifixion. Even extra biblical sources state this historical fact.
Your conspiracy theories and other tall tales are pure fantasy with no scriptural evidence at all. More than that, it paints Jesus as a deceiver and a fraud at best, not a Messiah.
I’m done speaking about this as your line of reasoning is borderline insanity as I cannot believe how any normal sane person can actually believe what you are saying. It’s absolutely in-congruent and incomprehensible.
Naz
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November 3, 2016 at 6:40 pm
s & m,
You’ve climbed into bed with Hugh Schonfield; too bad, how sad to be such a deluded puppet.
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November 3, 2016 at 11:35 pm
Naz:
Anyone with a supernatural mindset that believes in the paranormal is borderline insanity which is why religion is a form of mental illness. And you think I am borderline because I am a natural born man with the Father by Jesus revelation. living within me. The spirit of truth and the spirt of deception and lies are separated by a mighty gulf.
Even though Jesus survived and bore the scars of the event, told the disciples that he was alive, bone and flesh and still wanting to eat food would a spirit have such…of course nor just as Jesus said so you should wake up and come into the world of sanity. It’s just so logical when you interpret scriptures perfectly as Jesus did but you do not because you are brainwashed by others.
Without conviction yourself, you plead the ludicrous, religion was founded on.
You seem to think that a Son of Man has to be killed to be the martyr messiah designate of your fantasy but Jesus was a Messiah by his life, by his messages; he revealed something about the truth of God in you that you still can’t accept because then you might have too many demands to implement, not by his death that all you Christians glorify…his death as though that is the crown jewel of heaven. You’re so full of Absolute Certainty its incredible that you can even function as a human being.
If you wanted to kill a man and he rose from the ground alive, you’d try knocking him down again and if he got up again you’d keep flogging him until he stayed down so of course Jesus knew that his community was powerless to protect him from the powers of death and military might that would have done him in again and so he fled the area after sufficient healing and rose over the horizon as the cloud of dust took him from their sight.
How supernatural is that? I grew up on the dusty roads of the village just like Jesus before pavement changed the environment. I know how clouds of dust took people and their vehicles out of sight..lost in a cloud of dust.
Remember the story I told about the Nature of Faith:
Faith is like the clutch on a gear shift continental sports car. You could put your foot on the gas, rev the engine until every last window in the district is vibrating with the noise and THE WHOLE CITY LOST IN A CLOUD OF DUST. But if you don’t let the clutch out where will you be when you take your foot off the gas and the dust has settled? Exactly where you started! Because all the clutch does is relate the engine and the power under the hood to the wheels on the road. But the clutch doesn’t drive the car. Can you imagine a kid with his friend, open sports car, zooming down the road, nobody looking, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 miles an hour, wind streaming through his hair and he turns to his friend and says man….man..he says, what a clutch! Well you’d say don’t be so stupid. You’d say Man…what an engine!. All the clutch is doing is letting the engine be an engine.
And all that faith does in terms of your relationship to Jesus Christ is to allow him to move redemptively into your experience and reconcile you to God within you, the Good within you. If you don’t put your trust in Christ for the truth of that message, he’s still the redeemer but you won’t know it.
That doesn’t prove you’re smart. That just exposes your ignorance.
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November 3, 2016 at 11:49 pm
Sweet FA:
I have no idea who Sconfield is nor do I need to as I have no need for approval of others let alone you or Naz with minds soaked in the brimstone and fire of religious fantasy insanity. I have direct communication with someone you brag about but never knew; you use the name, in vain, to prove your scholarly academia but if you only know the bible textually you may as well recite Three Blind Mice for all the good it does.
You’re impotent and know it
But your ego can’t show it.
You fail at every level, a little pawn for the Mother of all Religions, you’re like the magician’s ass istant wearing the hat and holding the wand until you’re beckoned to do your duping delight part to add to the mystery only you know the secret of because you are part of the trick.
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November 4, 2016 at 8:37 am
Sweet FA and Man of Naz Aretha:
“Involuntary_commitment”
psychiatric patients show that delusions vary in intensity and conviction over time, which suggests that certainty and incorrigibility are not necessary components of a delusional belief.
Furthermore delusions do not necessarily have to be false or ‘incorrect inferences about external reality’. Some religious or spiritual beliefs by their nature may not be falsifiable, and hence cannot be described as false or incorrect, no matter whether the person holding these beliefs is diagnosed as delusional or not.
In other situations the delusion may turn out to be true belief. The reality is, delusional features can be found in “normal” beliefs. Many religious beliefs hold exactly the same features, yet are not universally considered delusional.
For example, delusions of guilt and punishment are frequent in a Western, Christian countries, but not in Pakistan – where it is more likely persecution.
You don’t hear with the ear; where you hear is in the brain, you know that. The reality of the ear as the mechanism that creates the delusion of sound in the mind, makes the sense of sound delusional, like hearing voices.
Audio hallucinations have shown that there is electrical activity in the throat of persons experiencing the “delusion” of hearing voices. This “apparent sounds” seem to be produced in the throat of the person experiencing the sound of voices but for all intents and purposes this electrical activity seems to be bypassing the ear and relayed directly to the brain where delusional sound is being heard by only the person experiencing the audio, in a self-inflicted, hallucination.
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November 4, 2016 at 8:45 am
Can common ground between the religious and non religious be found in math?
A farmer died leaving his 17 horses to his three sons.
When his sons opened up the Will it read:
My eldest son should get 1/2 (half) of total horses;
My middle son should be given 1/3rd (one-third) of the total horses;
My youngest son should be given 1/9th (one-ninth) of the total horses.
As it’s impossible to divide 17 into half or 17 by 3 or 17 by 9, the three sons started to fight with each other.
So, they decided to go to a farmer friend who they considered quite smart, to see if he could work it out for them.
The farmer friend read the Will patiently, after giving due thought, he brought one of his own horses over and added it to the 17. That increased the total to 18 horses.
Now, he divided the horses according to their father’s will.
Half of 18 = 9. So he gave the eldest son 9 horses.
1/3rd of 18 = 6. So he gave the middle son 6 horses.
1/9th of 18 = 2. So he gave the youngest son 2 horses.
Now add up how many horses they have:
Eldest son 9
Middle son 6
Youngest son 2
TOTAL = 17
Now this leaves one horse over, so the farmer friend takes his horse back to his farm.
Problem solved!
Moral:
The attitude of negotiation and problem solving is to find the 18th horse. i.e.. the common ground. Once a person is able to find the 18th horse the issue is resolved. It is difficult at times. However, to reach a solution, the first step is to believe that there is a solution. If we think that there is no solution, we won’t be able to reach any!
That’s what we call clever mathematics.
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November 4, 2016 at 9:01 am
Naz & Sweet FA:
You are getting too serious when you use language that is not becoming anyone who claims to follow either the Holy Book, The Messenger or the God that both supposedly represents.
There are people in the world who believe that it is better for mankind to follow common sense and their own intuition than the decrees made by ancient men who made the rules before they invented the wheel, before they discovered fire and how to control it, before the science of meteorology when the ancients thought it perfectly okay to kill their sons and daughter children so they could stop the drought, bring rain and bumper crops. These are the people who also knew nothing about electricity, about DNA about infectious diseases or how infections spread. These ancient people did not know much more than how to sacrifice and how to act out of superstition and the supernatural, how to kill, what foods you should or should not eat, what fibers to make your clothes from, who to love, have sex with, what Church or Mosque or Temple to attend, how, where and when to pray to the gods they created.
The Ancients were religious, superstitious men who felt that a few select people in their village had to control everything because as little as they knew themselves, they believed the common masses, the peasants in the village, were even less educated than themselves. They used magic tricks and called them miracles; it was how Moses learned the tricks of the trade. How the Ancient Prophets made their mark and claimed to be the Messenger Mediator for the Gods. And the better the magic, the better, it was believed, was the god you worshiped, The magic tricks they performed proved to be their entry into the Kings Court and were granted a place of reverence and influence.
You have to remember that even in our own lifetime, within the last one hundred years, we learned to build airplanes and fly across the heavens, built the automobile that gave mobility to millions across the planet, built the roads and infrastructure that supported travel, built rocket ships that landed on the moon, landed on Mars, landed on a moving asteroid, developed weapons so powerful they can wipe out all life on planet earth. We are learning about DNA and the manipulation of stem cells to build worn out or deficient body parts, antibiotics to kill the bacteria that will eat you up from the inside out and kill most people with whom the diseases come into contact with.
And there are countless examples of how mankind has progressed in communication that allow me to talk to you here on YouTube, the computer, the telephone, skype, cell phones, that everybody in the world can have at their fingertips, all designed to make life better for everything and everybody, everywhere on earth. Solar energy that allows remote villages in Africa to have light and energy to power machines and batteries that give them clean water to drink so they prevent disease, all good things to help people all over the world to have some of the things that others take for granted.
And with respect Fadel, there are still people in the world who want to destroy what others have built, want to kill those who disagree with them. Why? Because of superstition, the supernatural and the thousands of Gods all the superstitious supernatural ancient created before they decided there was only one god and every religion believes they have the right Book, the right Messenger and the right God and they will not or can not give up the tradition and culture from the days when mankind knew practically nothing about how the world operates today. What makes anybody today think the ancients knew anymore about the cosmos and the plans of the gods when they had to drag things around on the ground because they never knew about the wheel. But they knew everything about the Gods. Yeah!
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November 4, 2016 at 9:08 am
Heaven is a concept in the mind of human beings and is not a place anyone goes to; get over it, get a life by accepting those who disagree with you and your lifestyle, of being too full of pride to accept all humans.
We are all humbled when gravity pulls us down and water can give us life or kill life by drowning.
When you were a baby learning to walk did you fall down and hurt yourself? And did you cry? Did someone else give you a hand and help you up with comfort? Do likewise to all men born of women on earth; then you will see clearly enough to condemn yourself before you condemn others. Take the plank out of your own eye instead of looking for splinters in the eyes of others and if you learn nothing again in this life about your self righteousness you will remain blind and lonely following a myth all the days of a miserable, wasted life. Who follows a myth are the loneliest people on earth.
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November 4, 2016 at 9:42 am
FA:
Speaking of a deluded puppet:
The reality is this:
Gabriel, called the Arch-Angel went to Mary and seduced her. Simple. Gabriel was also the one who got her cousin, Elizabeth, pregnant some months before. Now of course the reality is that young girls are swooned easily when they are in the presence of “wow” guys, much like the girls of the 60’s could not even come close to Elvis without fainting.
Mary was no different and when she came close to Gabriel, a star in his time, she went limp and the spirit of love and seduction came upon her as it does upon most young gals. So she went limp and Gabriel seduced her that way and became the father of Jesus. Simple. Gabriel was also the one who went unto Joseph and implored Joseph not to “put Mary away”, as Joseph was wont to do.
The importance of all this is to point out that miracles are merely those events that we can’t necessarily put a close to.
Nevertheless this is nothing more than the explanation of the Curse of Ham(Canaan),
The exodus being guided by night in a pillar of light and by day in a pillar of cloud, or the
feeding of the multitudes,
he resurrection, ,
The beast of 666 the name and number.
All these things i already know.
Maybe you don’t and maybe you are laboring under the delusion of miraculous events but I can tell you that miracles are so simple, it defies complex analysis and defies the ridiculous hocus pocus of myth and magic.
Re: I can’t believe….
I know everything about christianity including the truth. But your question is really ridiculous because I never said I understood human existence but intelligent, sane people are working on it to discover the truth because the truth(knowledge) will set you free.
Now if you would have asked me something simple like a bible miracle,
Why Noah cursed Ham and Canaan, what really did Ham do that cause Noah to curse Ham’s son Canaan.
How moses led the exodus, 24/7, by light at night and by a cloud by day, or the parting of the sea,
the miraculuous feeding of thousands with the loaves and fishes,
Water into wine,
the resurrection,
the number,
name and
mark of the beast, or
why the bible says in one Proverb verse “Do not to answer a fool according to his folly lest thou be like him.” and in the next verse,
“Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes”, that would be simple enough but can you?;
These are all reasonably explainable but to ask me to explain to you our existence, we don’t know yet. Just like we did not know why it rained at one time so we created the rain god until the rain god was sacrificed on the altar of meteorology and science.
Same thing when we did not know why it thundered and I imagine people like yourself demanded of people like me to explain the miracle of thunder before we knew the answer.
It is only a matter of time before we will know the interaction of life forces and when we have that knowledge the truth of that knowledge will set you free. That’s the nature of truth, to KNOW.
But when people are so delusional as to pray to the god myth for their sick child , to the point of denying the child medical attention and the child dies, well need I say more about the mentally ill than that.? And yet countless people offer up millions of prayers on a regular basis to the god myth that never can answer prayer. If you have a toothache pray to the dentist and he can answer your prayer, not some created myth because we don’t yet understand the rain or thunder or the life forces.
As knowledge increased the gods fell away and in the time of their demise no one missed them at all except the adults who were too indoctrinated to change their brain dead ways of looking at things.
Now you said that you don’t claim to understand everything in the bible but I challenge you to tell me one thing in the bible that you don’t understand and I bet you a dime to donuts you will not be able to come up with one thing you don’t understand. I hear that all the time from christians, “I don’t claim to know everything in the bible”, but when asked to name one, they never can.
Funny thing about that. And the fact you believe in the virgin birth says all anyone needs to know about the way you think. You never came to that conclusion yourself, your reasoning brain would not let you; Yet you suspended your own brain reason because you were taught that delusion and accepted it without any reason or logical thinking.
Try explaining how a virgin birth would occur and I’ll explain to you why you don’t know what you are talking about.
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November 4, 2016 at 12:56 pm
s & m,
Re: post # 67.: “…literal text with the supernatural bent that Jesus too knew and debunked.”
[official] Miracles: Is Belief in the Supernatural Irrational? With John Lennox at Harvard
The Veritas Forum
Published on Mar 10, 2012
http://www.veritas.org/talks – We live and learn in environments and institutions that often value the material and tangible over the immaterial and invisible. In this Forum, John Lennox of Oxford explores the legitimacy of miracles and their supernatural implications.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)
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November 4, 2016 at 5:00 pm
Another “twinkling of the eye” post.
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November 15, 2019 at 4:26 am
Some thoughts –
1.Does Jesus do the ‘drawing’, or is that the work of the Father? John 6:44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.” – Jesus doesn’t do the drawing – the Father does.
2.Is not the context ‘judgment at this hour’ ? Jesus is about to draw all ‘judgement’ to Him – All the wrath, fury and anger of His Father upon Him when He is lifted up. Not the drawing of men, things, people etc. (which, by the way, are words written in itelex, showing that in the original greek have been added by the translators), but the full wrath of God on Him. Gods anger and wrath was fully appeased at and on the cross. We are now all living under His grace, love and mercy. Father God has no more anger directed at His children and is no longer angry – Our final judgment/rewards are to be meted out on judgment day. Judgement for those who have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour and rewards for those born again children?
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