Skeptics of Christianity often try to undermine the truth of Christianity by pointing to supposed errors or contradictions in the Bible. As a result, some Christians have abandoned the faith, while others remain shaken in their faith. This is unfortunate because the skeptics’ approach is fundamentally flawed.
We must distinguish between what makes Christianity true (an ontological question) and how we know Christianity to be true (an epistemological question). Many people think it’s the Bible that makes Christianity true. That’s why they question the truth of Christianity when they are confronted with supposed errors or contradictions in the Bible. A moment’s reflection reveals this to be wrongheaded. After all, couldn’t God have chosen to communicate the Gospel truths orally rather than in a written format? Of course! Indeed, that’s how it was transmitted in the early church. If Christianity could still be true without any written Bible at all, then surely it could still be true even if the Bible contains errors.
After all, all works of history contain errors, and yet no historian concludes that the presence of errors means the entire account was made up or worthless. They still believe most of the events described happened, even if they can’t be certain about every detail of those events due to errors in the reporting. The same would be true of Christianity. It’s the historical events surrounding the person of Jesus of Nazareth that make Christianity true – not the fact that they are recorded in the Bible. So long as there was a man named Jesus who was crucified, died, buried, and rose again from the dead, then Christianity is true even if the Bible gets some minor details wrong.
The importance of the Bible is that it’s the means by which most people learn about the historical events surrounding Jesus. Because it is our source of knowledge about Jesus, determining its accuracy is important to judging its truth value. If it is filled with errors and contradictions, then it becomes too difficult for us to know what happened in history. This topic is too weighty to address in any depth here, but suffice it to say that so long as the Bible is true in its salient details, the veracity of the historical events can be established. And indeed, the Bible is reliable in its salient details. The supposed errors* and contradictions pertain to peripheral details, not the core of the account, and thus they do not undermine the veracity of the major historical events upon which Christianity is based.
None of this is to say that the Bible is unimportant. It is, and I’m grateful to have it. It’s just to emphasize that our faith is grounded in the historical acts of God, not the written record of those acts. The resurrection of Jesus from a tomb in Jerusalem 2000 years ago is what makes Christianity true. How we come to learn about the resurrection is a secondary matter.
*As an inerrantist, I believe the original manuscripts were without error. I am merely granting the possibility of errors for the sake of argument.
Thinking to Believe 
September 23, 2017 at 5:33 pm
wrong. Christianity is false while the Bible is true. From: Theo-sophical Ruminations To: kimberlyann_45002000@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:45 PM Subject: [New post] Christianity is still true even if the Bible contains errors #yiv5461559654 a:hover {color:red;}#yiv5461559654 a {text-decoration:none;color:#0088cc;}#yiv5461559654 a.yiv5461559654primaryactionlink:link, #yiv5461559654 a.yiv5461559654primaryactionlink:visited {background-color:#2585B2;color:#fff;}#yiv5461559654 a.yiv5461559654primaryactionlink:hover, #yiv5461559654 a.yiv5461559654primaryactionlink:active {background-color:#11729E;color:#fff;}#yiv5461559654 WordPress.com | Theosophical Ruminator posted: “Skeptics of Christianity often try to undermine the truth of Christianity by pointing to supposed errors or contradictions in the Bible. As a result, some Christians have abandoned the faith, while others remain shaken in their faith. This is unfortunat” | |
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September 24, 2017 at 12:57 pm
“Many people think it’s the Bible that makes Christianity true. That’s why they question the truth of Christianity when they are confronted with supposed errors or contradictions in the Bible.”
Well, I think the main problem is for those who believe the Bible is God’s word, rather than the attempt by ancient tribesmen to express their beliefs. If the Bible is the actual word of God, and the Bible is God’s manual for salvation, and God wants everyone to be saved (as the Bible says), then does it make any sense at all that the Bible would contain any apparent contradictions? Or ambiguous metaphor? Or claims that contradict observed reality? Shouldn’t it be filled with prophecies that fulfill all ten requirements necessary to be able to unambiguously distinguish divine prophecy from something humans can come up with on their own?
Those questions don’t square with God’s supposed expressed intent. So either the Bible is little more than a human construct (in which case it’s interesting but not something to take too seriously)…or God is being deliberately deceitful about the truth.
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September 24, 2017 at 1:38 pm
DEREK:
“………..the Bible is little more than a human construct………..” And I am unanimous in that.
And while a human attempt at delivering virtue and righteousness seems a worthy venture, using magic tricks to demonstrate miraculous powers by an invisible supernatural entity hardly garners point in one’s credence chest. Equally incredible is touting common sense events as miracles from on high: feeding thousands, turning water into wine, walking on water instead of walking in water.
Jesus rightly divined through his common sense that this religious idea of the supernatural was nonsense and the way on which religion operated to impose this nonsense on the masses.
To save mankind from this ancient stupidity, Jesus needed to revolutionize the religious mindset of man in order to come out of the mired, tired way of discerning everything in the world as having supernatural agency.
Believers are living in a fantasy world that has taken away their common sense and replaced it with Snow White and Peter Rabbit and the gullible may as just as well read “Three Blind Mice” for all the good the bible does them.
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September 25, 2017 at 8:27 am
Reliance on a single source like the Church or the Bible is unlikely to be fruitful. Catholicism became the dominant Christian denomination in the 4th century AD. Below is a link that gives a brief history:
https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
Bibles were being printed from 1456 and Martin Luther started the Reformation movement in the 16th century AD. It was the Reformation that led to Bibles becoming the new authority on Christianity replacing that of the Pope, his Bishops and the RC Church. Martin Luther came to believe in Sola Fida, salvation by faith alone, based on biblical scriptures.
Contradictions in biblical texts are not a minor thing. According to the story, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. You’d think that was sufficient but the Israelites needed 613 laws to function morally. Below is a link to Lev. 20 which details some of the additional laws:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20&version=KJV
And an extract from it:
9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
The contradiction that I cannot reconcile goes back to the Ten Commandments, the sixth being, “Thou shalt not kill.” What then were executions if not sanctioned killings? Were God’s chosen people so lacking in His spirit that they needed everything spelt out for them? Were these additional laws man-made and not God-given? Wouldn’t banishment rather than execution have been more just as was the prescribed punishment when other laws were broken?
18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
I agree with Jason (T.R.) that belief and understanding in Christ are more important than dependence on the Bible.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 25, 2017 at 4:57 pm
Dear readers,
I have discussed one major contradiction in the Bible in my last post but what of the books of the Bible?
The three main divisions of Christianity differ in the number of books they consider canonical. Below is a link that explains how this is so:
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apocrypha
And an extract from it:
In an Orthodox Bible, there are 49 books in the Old Testament canon. Roman Catholics only accept seven so-called Deuterocanonical books, so their Old Testament has a total of 46 books (sometimes counted as 47). Because Protestants mistakenly reject the Septuagint altogether, their Old Testament canon has only 39 books.
What of the 27 books of the NT? Page six of the link below gives a summary of the Pauline scriptures that are doubted due to their dating after Paul had died:
Click to access Did_Paul_write_Timothy_or_Titus.pdf
It’s hard to read and perhaps the first part and the conclusion are worth the trouble.
Another link that casts doubt on the pastoral letters to Titus and Paul is given below:
https://cognitivediscopants.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/did-paul-write-the-pastoral-epistles/
I present this information in the hope that some readers with an open mind, discernment and intelligence may give it some thought and not to undermine anyone who faithfully believes in the inerrancy of the Bible in its entirety.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 25, 2017 at 5:14 pm
Hi!
I failed to notice an error in my last post until after I posted it and it’s awaiting moderation probably because three links are included in it. Readers may get this post before my previous one.
I wrote, “Another link that casts doubt on the pastoral letters to Titus and Paul is given below”
I meant to write – another link that casts doubt on the pastoral letters from Paul to Timothy and Titus is given below.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 28, 2017 at 10:34 am
“Well, I think the main problem is for those who believe the Bible is God’s word, rather than the attempt by ancient tribesmen to express their beliefs. If the Bible is the actual word of God, and the Bible is God’s manual for salvation, and God wants everyone to be saved (as the Bible says), then does it make any sense at all that the Bible would contain any apparent contradictions? Or ambiguous metaphor? Or claims that contradict observed reality? Shouldn’t it be filled with prophecies that fulfill all ten requirements necessary to be able to unambiguously distinguish divine prophecy from something humans can come up with on their own?”
Derek, while the bible surely points us to the one that can save, I don’t think addressing it as a “manual” for salvation to be accurate. I have a manual that tells me how to service my car, this is not a a good analogy for the bible. I say this not to nitpick at your use of language (I get it), rather, your use of the word “manual” is exactly the kind of thinking that I am addressing here.
While I believe that the bible is inspired by the Spirit of God, I don’t think the nature of that inspiration is understood. The ones that penned the scriptures were not mindless zombies which God spoke or wrote through as they stood helplessly by in some sort of trance. These people were inspired from within. When you look at Paul’s letters for example and see how he explains the gospel and what it means regarding forgiveness, our identity etc… this all comes from the understanding given to Him by the Spirit. He did not conjure up these ideas on his own. The writers did lose their personality in penning the words, rather their personality was integral in the inspiration process.
If we look at the bible as a manual, then one’s approach to reading it is all wrong. One will read the bible in an attempt to find answers to their own problems or as a band-aid for example. As a manual, the bible will be nothing more than a bunch of 3-step programs or witty phrases for how to live a successful life. If we take this approach then we’re missing the whole point. The point of the scriptures is supposed to lead you to Jesus. From front to back, this is all about Jesus and His redemption of mankind.
As far as “ambiguous metaphors” or “claims that contradict observed reality”, these are sweeping generalizations that don’t hold a lot of water, so I will just dismiss it for now. As for biblical prophecies, I don’t know how you can judge that they are not genuine, especially the several prophecies about Christ in the old testament. These could not have been made up since Isaiah was clearly written long before Christ.
As for contradictions and errors, you have to keep in mind that we copies of written translations. The original scriptures were in Hebrew and Greek, so special attention needs to be placed on textual details. To avoid contradictions. interpretation of the scriptures must be based on proper context, the audience, the time period etc…we can’t read it as a contemporary work. It’s interesting that there is no other work of antiquity with as much manuscript evidence as the scriptures. It is the most significant written work from antiquity than any other work. If there are genuine factual mistakes or textual errors, we must keep in mind the copying process is not guaranteed to be error free, especially when you have copies of copies. In the end, no errors have done anything to take away from the central message of Christ, and that’s the whole point. Often contradictions arise from lack of understanding. For example the whole faith and works discussion of James made Martin Luther say the book of James should not be part of the biblical canon. He was wrong.
We should be thankful we have anything from those times at all ! The fact that we have such an abundance of material, I can live with a few omissions or mistakes here and there. I don’t worship the bible, I write in it, put my coffee on it, it’s only a book.
In the end, we need to see the forest from the trees when looking at the content of the scriptures and I think Jason did a good job explaining this point in this post.
Cheers.
Naz
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September 29, 2017 at 5:17 pm
All religion derives from a person. To ask if a religion is true is like asking the question, “Is it’s colder up north than it is in the winter or “is it warmer down south than it is in the summer. A religion can only be true to itself but that’s the extent of it, as it begs the question: true, compared to what?
To say a religion is true, is a non sequitur; it’s like asking the question: “Is it farther to New York than it is by plane?
‘Religion can only be true to itself and nothing beyond that makes any sense, so with respect to that, all religions are true and if you don’t like that, then all religions are false but then that begs the question too, compared to what. Therefore religion can only be compared to itself.
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September 29, 2017 at 9:15 pm
Hello readers!
Naz wrote, “When you look at Paul’s letters for example and see how he explains the gospel and what it means regarding forgiveness, our identity etc… this all comes from the understanding given to Him by the Spirit.”
I don’t think it wise to promote Paul’s writing since scholars have impugned the integrity of the so-called Pauline teachings through contextual analysis finding in them anachronisms and that others have written texts and signed themselves as ‘Paul.’ Did God inspire ‘Paul’ to write to the Ephesians,
Ephesians 5:22-25 King James Version (KJV)
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.
Or was Paul writing to popularise himself by endorsing the accepted practice of placing men as head of households and connecting it with a Christian view that Christ was head of His church?
Why not say, “Husbands and wives love and respect one another…..”?
From Genesis,
Genesis 1:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
This seems clear enough to me and suggests an equality between men and women. Why then the second story saying that God put Adam to sleep and He removed one of Adam’s ribs in order to create Eve, if not to promote men as superior to women? If God had wanted to make Eve secondly, why not employ the same method as He had done to create Adam? Did He need Adam’s DNA to create Eve? Had He forgotten how to create a human being?
I would suggest that the Bible is littered with the uninspired words of men promoting thier own interests among the God-inspired words of men. We need to be courageous and discerning, not frightened of, and apologetic for God.
I write generally to anyone who adheres to the idea that the Bible is wholly God-inspired and inerrant, to promote the search for truth and not to cause deliberate offence.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 30, 2017 at 9:03 am
Dino, I agree with you that men and women are equal and respectfully you misunderstand Paul’s writings on this. When Paul talks about being the head, he is talking about role not inequality. In fact, the scripture says we are to submit to each other. The scriptures say we are all one in Christ, men and women. Our value is the same without any doubt. Leading one’s home is not an equality issue, dare I say if more men would step up to the plate and be a leader in the home, the world would have less family problems with less gutless husbands IMO.
As for the rest of Paul’s writings, I know they have come under scrutiny by the scholarly and the like. Keep in mind, sometimes Paul is speaking from a cultural context in some of his letters. So we must take this into proper context. For example the whole part about head coverings is surely a cultural context even though you still see this practiced to some degree today.
Lastly, and most importantly, Paul has a strong testimony about Christ. His personal views which he sometimes shares and side commentaries on husband and wife etc.. do nothing to take away his testimony of the resurrection of Christ that he proclaimed. Paul’s testimony is especially strong because here you have a former Pharisee who’s life was changed by Jesus Christ. This is the great take away from his writings. To nitpick or highlight secondary issues is not seeing the forest from the trees.
Again, we don’t need to throw out the baby with the bath water regarding Paul’s writings or any other scripture because we disagree or don’t understand it. Paul wrote most of the new testament and there is great wisdom in his writings that I truly believe are inspired by the Spirit of God. I never personally knew the man, but if you read about his struggles and persecution in the book of Acts, I would be hard pressed to say he was promoting his own agenda or self interests.
Cheers.
Naz
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September 30, 2017 at 1:54 pm
Hi Naz
I liked that you responded in a civil manner to my post #9.
I think you understood that my comments were not directed towards you but picked up on a thread from your post #7, “When you look at Paul’s letters for example and see how he explains the gospel and what it means regarding forgiveness, our identity etc… this all comes from the understanding given to Him by the Spirit.”
I think my post #5 was unclear due to the words I had omitted from it. I included a link to a pdf file that’s difficult to read but quite relevant to this topic:
Click to access Did_Paul_write_Timothy_or_Titus.pdf
If you care to read it do not be put off by the character string, ‘jwstudies’ – it was not posted by the Jehovah’s Witness group. From it, we understand that consensus among scholars indicates that only seven of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul’s authorship is genuinely his and that Ephesians is not one of them.
You wrote to me, “Dino, I agree with you that men and women are equal and respectfully you misunderstand Paul’s writings on this.” Men are no longer considered to be the automatic head of the family in modern times. What Paul said did not stand the test of time and your thought, “…dare I say if more men would step up to the plate and be a leader in the home, the world would have less family problems with less gutless husbands IMO,” is ill-advised. I know of several couples wherein the wife is the head of the household, and they have children, and I have found only happiness and harmony within their family.
I noticed that you avoided my suggestion of what Paul could have said, “Husbands and wives love and respect one another.” This has Christian qualities, would have challenged the Status Quo and would have retained the timeless attribute usually associated with Christian teaching. Do you think that Christ considered men superior to women?
I would say that it’s important not to suggest that other contributors are misunderstanding the texts of the Bible. Submitting to one another is a different context than the special relationship between a married couple. We who contribute to the discussion on this and other forums should not feel that our own understanding is superior to that of others and state that others have misunderstood. Each of our opinions is an equally valid understanding and we should be willing to learn from each other.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 30, 2017 at 3:26 pm
[…] Source: Christianity would still true even if the Bible contained errors | Theo-sophical Ruminations […]
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September 30, 2017 at 4:43 pm
Dino:
A Christ Clear Comment Clearly well said.
L.
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September 30, 2017 at 4:49 pm
DINO SAID:
“…………I would say that it’s important not to suggest that other contributors are misunderstanding the texts of the Bible. Submitting to one another is a different context than the special relationship between a married couple. We who contribute to the discussion on this and other forums should not feel that our own understanding is superior to that of others and state that others have misunderstood. Each of our opinions is an equally valid understanding and we should be willing to learn from each other………”
Albeit, there is a need surely to express an understanding to open the minds of others if they are willing to receive parables that convey the message without the shock therapy I am often guiltily persistent with…….in love of course, even through the coarse curse that may ensue…
OMG did I just say “through the coarse curse that may ensue? ) :
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September 30, 2017 at 4:50 pm
(:
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September 30, 2017 at 4:52 pm
😁 😂
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September 30, 2017 at 7:35 pm
Hi Leo et al,
I agree that we should express our understanding but is it acceptable to assert that our own understanding is the correct one and that the understanding of others is a misunderstanding of Biblical texts? How do we make such an assertion? We should at least be polite, take care of our explanations and the grounds on which they are based.
We are not here solely to win arguments but to discuss and learn from one another. I find that the information in the links included with contributor’s thoughts as refreshing and revealing as their multifarious thoughts.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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September 30, 2017 at 9:02 pm
Hello Dino:
Based on the life messages of Jesus, sometimes one cannot be polite and gentle when there are such obvious misreadings of scripture to promote one’s agenda.
“Who do you think Jesus talked about when he said in John 8;44 :Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.”
NOW HERE ARE A FEW NON GENTLE OBSERVATIONS TO COMPARE:
“Of the few innocent pleasures left…. the jamming of commonsense down
the throats of fools is perhaps the keenest.” – Thomas Huxley.
Imagine the huge boost for mankind as knowledge leaps and bounds ahead, now that humans can get off their knees long enough to seek knowledge, to MAKE their destiny instead of praying to the Lottery Gods. Bring Heaven to Earth.
To those who think religion deserves some kind of respect for its Ego-Maniacal, Vain Imaginations, I say to you that the demise of your ghost system is at hand. Allah, God, Yahweh have no existence; AND, She never will have existence outside the minds of control freaks. The closest ANYONE will ever get to the CONCEPT of allah, god or jehovah is a woman, and her children.
Someone asked me this week what have you got against religion. Well that’s a tough one. I’m suspicious of religion and that’s unusual for me because if something sounds too good to be true, I’m in. Where do I sign? But with religion something’s holding me back and I’m not sure what it is. It could be the shameless hypocrisy, the arrogant self righteous, the willful ignorance or the cynical indoctrination and poisoning of young minds with prejudice and hate.
I believe that faith based education is a social cancer which serves only to produce new generations of ignorant bigots and I believe that indoctrinating children with this repressive medieval rubbish should be vigorously prosecuted as child abuse.
The dinosaurs of course died out eventually although one dinosaur is still with us unfortunately. And that is creationism’s very own, Ignoramus Rex. A small brain creature with a hard outer shell, impervious to reason, feeds exclusively on scripture and its copious droppings and can serve as a useful metaphor for everything.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Both of these unfortunate groups, the secret atheists and the secret homosexuals, are victims of other people’s rigid interpretation of scripture because scripture gives us license, if we are that way inclined, to show the very worse of ourselves and to behave in ways we might otherwise be ashamed of if we had any decency about us.
There’s nothing you can’t read into it or take from it. So whatever nasty little attitude that you harbor toward your fellow man, will find justification in scripture because, like the sands of the desert, fixed and immutable, yet, ever shifting, the words of god are infinitely versatile. Open that book and watch them dance across the page like ninjas, each one a soldier for you and your petty prejudices.
But don’t make the mistake of thinking you can blame scripture for noxious opinions. You can seek refuge in it as many hypocrites do but you can’t hide behind it. Because scripture depends on interpretation and because it is so ambiguous, the way you choose to interpret it, reveals who you are in your heart, so in that sense it’s not a shield at all. It’s a spotlight that shows up an evil heart like an x-ray.
NOW COMPARE JESUS’S NON TOO GENTLE MESSAGES.
In Matthew’s Gospel, an entire chapter is devoted to the tirade unleashed by Jesus against the hard shelled small brained dinosaurs of the religious establishment’s (supernatural) interpretation of the bible.
I won’t take the time to publish the entire chapter 23 of Matthew’s Gospel here but you can re-visit the 8-fold Indictment that has no politesse for the hard nosed stupidities of supernaturalist culture from mythological insanity and at times, only shock therapy of reality can be tried.
CHAPTER 23 MATTHEW:
Fill in the blanks”—— — —— – — —- — ———- — —– —-“
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September 30, 2017 at 9:27 pm
Dino:
One final verse, Jesus was no man’s scapegoat: why?
John 5: 34 Because “……… I receive not testimony from man………”
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October 1, 2017 at 7:13 pm
Thank you, Leo.
I have tended to focus on Christ’s positive teachings and it’s been some time since I read Mt 23.
I thought to check some Jewish commentary on Mt 23. Below is a link:
http://www.yashanet.com/Studies/matstudy/mat12c.htm
I should let you know that I always regard Biblical texts with some degree of scepticism as only a few from the NT were proven to have been written contemporaneously about the events they described or the teaching they espoused. Also, later manuscripts were edited before and after their translation into other languages.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 4, 2017 at 5:59 am
Dino, good comments.
For clarification…
My reference to “gutless husbands” is in the context where a woman is looking for her husband to lead and does not possess the leadership qualities herself. This is not mean to disparage strong women who lead their homes as surely this can be the case in our society.
Submission one to another can apply to the marriage bond and mutual respect is surely consistent with the Christ’s character. Did Jesus think men were superior than women ? That’s a very general open ended question, but based on the context of our conversation I would say no. I do think Jesus would say God is superior to Man.
I never suggested my understanding was “superior” than any others. I have went through many iterations of understanding myself and will continue to do so, that is how we learn and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord.
As for Paul’s writings I knew that Hebrews was in doubt but I was not aware of any other letters where his authorship was in doubt. That’s fine, it doesn’t change anything because the content of all of the new testament letters are useful.
Naz
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October 4, 2017 at 9:48 pm
Dear Naz,
Your comments have clarified nothing but suggest that you do not have free will yourself as you do not think freely, committed as you are to the Bible for your understanding of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and moral guidance, etc.
Your first para fails to acknowledge that husbands can feel disappointed too when their wives do not lead their households and to refer to married men as “gutless husbands,” is clearly derogatory. Also, you referred to leading the household as a role in an earlier post when it’s actually a position (head of household).The things you do are roles, like keeping house, nurturing the children, painting and decorating, general home maintenance and earning enough money to sustain the family. These things can be shared in turn, done together or agreed as long-term preferences within marriages.
Your second para shows your unwillingness to give your opinion when I asked, “Do you think that Christ considered men superior to women?” You chose to answer a different question instead, ” I do think Jesus would say God is superior to Man.” We readers guessed that you held that view from your previous posts and you merely confirmed it rather than writing something new.
Your third para reveals that you did not understand my point that people have different understandings of the scriptures as you stated in a previous post,
“Dino, I agree with you that men and women are equal and respectfully you misunderstand Paul’s writings on this.”
If you deem me to ‘misunderstand’, and you proceed to give your opinion, then it follows that you consider your understanding to be superior to mine. I made a point that I felt was important and it was that Paul gave Christian approval for men to continue to consider wives as inferior in their position in the family home.
Your fourth para apparently shows your willingness to accept all the NT letters, in their current format, as useful, despite your admission, “This is not mean to disparage strong women who lead their homes as surely this can be the case in our society.”
Do you think the following scriptures were and are useful?
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Timothy 2:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Please understand that I’m searching for truth and it’s your comments that I am calling to account and I now doubt that you write from a position of freedom or that you have ‘free will’, something you claim we all have.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 5, 2017 at 6:40 am
Dino, good luck in your search for truth, I hope you find it.
Peace.
Naz
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October 5, 2017 at 7:06 am
Naz:
You wouldn’t see truth if you tripped over Dino………..you’d think it was just another rock……..
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October 5, 2017 at 10:51 am
John 18:38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?
Naz
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October 5, 2017 at 6:50 pm
Dear Naz,
You wrote, “Dino, good luck in your search for truth, I hope you find it.”
Although luck plays a part in finding truth mostly it’s about honest and persistent searching coupled with free thinking. I’m not looking for a single truth but truth instead of distortion that often comes from total belief in something self-contradictory, like the Bible. We have the power of discernment and it is unfortunate when we choose brand loyalty instead. David McRaney explains this and much more in his book, “You Are Not So Smart.”
I believe that truth is hidden in the fields of common life experience and I’m finding it all the time, thanks.
Did you notice the irony that Christ’s accusers did not consider the defilement of condemning an innocent man to death, even preferring to set Barabbas the robber free when Pilate offered, but they would not enter the court for fear of being defiled?
John 18:28-40 King James Version (KJV)
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
May we all stop resting on our laurels, feel the urge to seek truth and enjoy the fruits thereof.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 5, 2017 at 8:04 pm
Naz:
Why did Pilate ask that question to Jesus, “What is truth?” And quoting Pilate what point are you trying to make? Are you trying to use Pilate as some proverbial whisperer, some outstanding guru or prophet? by “what is truth”.
I don’t get it because there is no context in your quote.
When Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you a king then”? Do you think Jesus affirmed that he was a King by his answer to Pilate’s question?; if you think that, I would like to hear you say so; if not then, I’d like to hear your answer describing what the substance of the conversation actually was, from both parties. Can you tell me that in your own words?
I can parse that particular conversation of Pilate and Jesus like a fine tooth comb as if I was in the room when they spoke. Can you?
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October 5, 2017 at 9:22 pm
Hi Leo
Thank you for asking Naz to give the purpose of his solitary sentence in post #25 without any explanation of any kind. I too would like to read his comments and if he does not respond after a reasonable period, I would like to read yours, please.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 5, 2017 at 9:26 pm
That’s a deal Dino.
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October 6, 2017 at 4:57 am
Truth is in the mind of the beholder. You can parse scripture anyway you want, depending on your view of the veracity of the writings. The strict inerrantist views scripture as absolute truth, the absolute word of God. A liberal interpretation views the teachings of scripture as metaphorical moral lessons. You can argue all day which interpretation is “right”, but it doesn’t really matter in the end. The threat to the present day relevance of Christianity, or any other religious belief system for that matter, doesn’t come from the skeptics. It comes from the strict inerrantists, whose belief in the absolute validity of 2000-3000 year old writings is often contradicted by established scientific fact and modern day understanding of the physical world.
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October 6, 2017 at 2:43 pm
Dino, my “good luck” comment was intended to be a kind and encouraging sentiment with regards to your search for truth. I was not trying to be sarcastic and perhaps the word “luck” is not the best choice of words to use.
I like your statement how truth can be found in the common life experiences and I agree with that. But that is not what I was referring to with regards to what Jesus said. Life will provide us many opportunities to find bits and pieces of anecdotal truths here and there but when it comes to Jesus Christ, this is something much bigger and much more important.
I’m not sure what you have presumed I believe, but I can assure you that it’s not a book. My faith is in the living Christ. I’m not very religious depending on your definition of religious. I’m not big on rules and regulations and I don’t think the Christian life is difficult, rather it’s quite liberating. Christians are hard at work trying to get right and stay right before God, while Jesus is asking us to simply rest in Him. I have spent the last couple of years learning how to rest and to cease from my own religious works. If you are tired of dead, lifeless religion and you want to make sense of the universe and the world around us, then the gospel of grace is what you are looking for.
As for the “what is truth” statement by Pilate, its one of my favorite lines in all the bible. Here you have a guy, Pilate, asking what truth is when it’s standing right in front of him ! It’s the irony of ironies.
It doesn’t matter in the end what we do with the bible or what we think of it. What matters is what we do with Jesus. God has promised that if we embrace His Son as the Truth, our sins for all time will be forgiven and forgotten with no strings attached. There is nothing you can do to undo eternal life, there is no sin imaginable that can outperform the blood of Christ. Eternal life is not temporary life, it cannot be undone or cancelled. It’s a promise by God and is irrevocable.
That’s not all, our new identity is no longer sinner, but “child of God” and our righteousness is equal to Jesus’ righteousness. It’s freely given to us and we don’t work for it.
And there’s more…, a person that embraces Christ is changed inside so that as the bible says, you are given a new heart. So it’s not a get of jail free card or a license to sin, it’s a genuine heart change and at the core you don’t really even want to sin any longer even though we all stumble in many ways as James said.
Oh, and there’s more ….. not only are you guaranteed to never taste death, you will be given a resurrected body, just like Jesus Christ, and have the perpetual youth we all have wished for now that the hairs of our head are getting whiter every day 🙂 Dino, at least you have a nice white cover, mine are falling out 🙂
Let me summarize, it’s a pretty good deal :
– Total forgiveness for past and future sins
– Declared as righteous as Jesus
– A new heart and the Spirit of Christ living in us
– A new identity as Saint and child of God
– Eternal life beyond the grave
– A new physical body for eternity
Cost = Death of Jesus of Nazareth
The One standing before Pilate is responsible and is ready to give everything I just said with no effort on our part….what an incredulous statement indeed.
“What is truth”
Peace
Naz
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October 7, 2017 at 7:34 am
Hi Naz
You wrote, “As for the “what is truth” statement by Pilate, its one of my favorite lines in all the bible. Here you have a guy, Pilate, asking what truth is when it’s standing right in front of him ! It’s the irony of ironies.”
Thank you for revealing what you believe is the Truth – Jesus Christ if I’ve understood you correctly?
More of the scriptural passage to give context:
John 18:28-40 King James Version (KJV)
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, “What accusation bring ye against this man?”
30 They answered and said unto him, “If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.”
31 Then said Pilate unto them, “Take ye him, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews, therefore, said unto him, “It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.”
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, “Art thou the King of the Jews?”
34 Jesus answered him, “Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?”
35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew?” Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
37 Pilate, therefore, said unto him, “Art thou a king then?” Jesus answered, “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
38 Pilate saith unto him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, “I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the Passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?”
40 Then cried they all again, saying, “Not this man, but Barabbas.” Now Barabbas was a robber.
My understanding of truth is what you refer to as anecdotal. I do not aspire to learn an absolute truth because I do not think it can be found in a way that’s useful, universal and verifiable. However, I think that the above passage reveals some truths and some lies, by my own judgement. Compare verses 30 and 31, if you will.
What we presume we understand about each from forums such as this depends on our prejudices, beliefs and what we read and write on the forums. I suggest that honest, discerning and intelligent readers would not describe the texts below as ‘useful’:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Timothy 2:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Have you modified your earlier claim in your post #21, “That’s fine, it doesn’t change anything because the content of all of the new testament letters are useful.”?
I try hard not to write anything in a dogmatic style because my opinions are fluid and I’m willing to change or modify them according to what I learn.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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October 7, 2017 at 7:52 am
Dino:
It is noteworthy that Naz talks about his favorite phrase “What is truth” and then goes on to mention EVERYTHING except the conversation between Pontius and Jesus which was the explicit questions posed to him in Post # 27 and Bob Mason’s comment following my comment about parsing the conversation. Stay tuned Dino. Stay tuned Bob and Naz you will stay out of tune as usual methinks even after I parse the conversation, as it should be parsed. heh heh hehe..
At this time I am pressed with other tasks and busy but I will make the deal a little later.
Cheers
As Jesus might say to many believers:
“You wouldn’t recognize Christ if you tripped over me.” (U)
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October 7, 2017 at 12:09 pm
Hi Leo
Yes, I noticed much but I focussed on small bytes.
I could have written my thoughts about Jn 18:30-31, 40 but I want Naz to have a chance to write his own thoughts. I do not claim to understand the entire conversation between Jesus and Pontius but there are some obvious threads that can be picked out by willing humans.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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November 15, 2017 at 5:31 pm
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