Jesus said, “It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God” (Mt 19:24; Mk 10:25; Lk 18:25). Jesus said this after the young rich ruler refused Jesus’ call to discipleship because he was unwilling to give away all of his riches. Jesus’ point seems to be that people with wealth tend to trust in their wealth, making it difficult for them to place their trust in Christ.
This doesn’t make much sense on a Calvinistic view of salvation, and thus serves as evidence against Calvinism.
Remember, on Calvinism, salvation is wholly determined by God’s choice. He saves whoever He wants to save, wholly independent of their behavior or economic status. Given that God determines who is saved and is wholly responsible for their regeneration, how can it be said that it’s “hard” for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? Is it harder for God to save a rich man than a poor man? Obviously not, if God is wholly responsible for salvation. It only makes sense to speak of it being harder for a rich man to be saved if our salvation is contingent on both God’s act and our response. Why is it harder for a rich person to respond to God’s grace than the non-rich? Apparently, many trust in their wealth more than they trust in God, or their love of money supersedes their love for God. Jesus said you can’t serve both God and money (Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13). If Calvinism were true, God could just as easily elect a rich person as a poor person. It only becomes “hard” for a person to experience salvation if salvation is not a unilateral act of God, but an act of God followed by a person’s free choice, and that free choice is hindered by something such as one’s trust in wealth.
By no means do I think that Calvinism can be put to bed with one verse, but I think this verse serves as evidence against the view. If you are a Calvinist, I would be interested to hear how you interpret this saying of Jesus.
Thinking to Believe 
December 4, 2018 at 5:09 pm
Another way of saying the same thing: “You can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
However I am not convinced that Jesus said that; it sounds more like the clerics like the mega church preachers asking for all you have or more and more of it as a ploy to fill the church coffers.
Jesus’s two best friends were among the wealthiest people in town, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and they were disciples(secretly to be sure) so there is more to the story than meets the eye. But when the disciples said who then can be saved, I believe it also states “….what is impossible for man is possible for God…..”
The doctrine of Calvinism may be the last bastion of hope for the hopeless and that may be the motive for the doctrine…….so they run with it. When all seems hopeless at least that doctrine might appeal at the last minute to some.
I am not a Calvinist but there are good people in every denomination and it is the goodness of people that generally make up a church though often exploited by the church group to attract others to their altar.
When Donal Trump, the candidate, was bragging about how the poisonous water problem with the lead leaking into the system in Flint MI could be fixed with far less money that the estimates being touted, I send an email to the Trump Group and suggested a small piece of Trump’s fortune could be a winning gesture for his election if he repaired the system but never answered the challenge and he, the rich man never followed me either.
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December 5, 2018 at 6:04 am
Jesus wasn’t offering the young man discipleship….he was offering him apostleship. big diff. And, this passage shouldn’t be taken from its specificity to apply it generically for one’s own agenda.
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December 5, 2018 at 6:44 am
Kim, You say that “Jesus wasn’t offering the young man discipleship…”. He literally told him, “follow me”. If following Jesus, hearing his teaching and experiencing his person and work isn’t the work of a disciple, then pray tell what exactly is? And no matter the precise situation of this young man, it is overshadowed by Jesus’ more broad point when he turns to his disciples and declares how difficult it is for a rich man to enter into the “Kingdom of Heaven” and “Kingdom of God”. It seems that Jesus used these phrases frequently to talk about his rule in the hearts of men (someday translating to a literal and physical kingdom), thereby saving them from their sins. To me it seems evident that Jesus was illustrating that it is hard for a rich man to inherit salvation and eternal life. To echo the author’s point, it doesn’t unilaterally destroy Calvinism, but definitely doesn’t square well with it either. Just my take, I’m a lowly layman, not a theologian.
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December 5, 2018 at 12:09 pm
I’m not a Calvinist, but my research into the Bible has turned up much more support for their position than against it. For instance, NOWHERE in the Bible does it say free will exists, or that the choices we think we’re making are our own. In fact, it says the exact opposite, clearly stating that God plans EVERYTHING, including our very steps:
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end–even the wicked for the day of disaster. [He doesn’t just determine SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
• Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those DESTINED FOR DEATH, captivity to those DESTINED FOR CAPTIVITY, and the sword to those DESTINED FOR THE SWORD.
• Psalm 37:23 A MAN’S STEPS ARE ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [Evidently God delights in establishing a man’s steps to take the wrong path.]
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE.
• John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS THEM. [Only God decides who will be saved and who won’t.]
• John 6:37 ALL THOSE THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [If God decides to save you, you WILL be saved, no choice.]
• Acts 13:48 and ALL WHO WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God were appointed to do so.]
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Romans 8:20 For THE CREATURE WAS MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT BY REASON OF HIM WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE. [It’s not our will that subjects us to vanity, but God’s.]
• Romans 9:19-21 “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, TO MAKE FROM THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR COMMON USE?”
• Isaiah 14:27 For THE LORD ALMIGHTY HAS PURPOSED, and who can thwart him?
• Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass.
• Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT? [People don’t cause disaster unless God makes them do it.]
• Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that NO PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED.”
The Bible does stress the importance of making the right choices, but being able to make choices doesn’t require free will. In fact, even animals that clearly don’t have free will are perfectly capable of making decisions. Computers can even be programmed to make decisions. So I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear that free will is only an illusion, and that GOD is the one responsible for EVERY action, good and evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I MAKE PEACE, AND CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
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December 5, 2018 at 12:44 pm
Kim, I don’t agree with your “apostleship not discipleship” take, but that’s not relevant to the discussion. Jesus was not speaking specifically of the young man only, but making a general statement about the difficulty of saving rich people. That does have applicability to the question of how we are saved.
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December 5, 2018 at 12:45 pm
Derekmathias, this post is not about the general question of whether Calvinism or Arminianism is true, and I don’t want the conversation taking that turn. It’s about whether this verse squares with Calvinism or not.
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December 5, 2018 at 1:04 pm
“this post is not about the general question of whether Calvinism or Arminianism is true, and I don’t want the conversation taking that turn. It’s about whether this verse squares with Calvinism or not.”
I understand, and my point wasn’t to say Calvinism is true (I did note that I’m not a Calvinist). I included all those other passages as my argument that your interpretation of that verse is likely not what was intended. Perhaps the verse means it’s hard to EXPECT a rich man to enter heaven. The Bible has gone through so many iterations and translations, after all, so the meaning can change over time (like a game of telephone).
Either that, or you’ve just found another biblical contradiction.
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December 5, 2018 at 2:12 pm
derekmathias:
Everything in the Old testament is attributed to God, the good, the bad and the ugly. It was the old testament verses that were used to charge Galileo with heresy because the old testament scriptures say that god placed the earth immovable. Heliocentrism refutes that stone chiseled attribute.
Jesus obviously saw cause and effect as a human experience and all his parables speak to the “cause and effect”: for example, “persistence” that makes the sleepy family give bread to his friend at midnight and the judge to give justice to the widow.
For the same reason there is a free will “cause and effect” when a rich person placing greater value in his wealth than in virtue: compassion, kindness, generosity, empathy that would allow him to share wealth to help the poor, is missing, that restricts him from entering the Kingdom of Heaven where the virtue reigns and money not so much.
Since virtue is a key to Kingdom membership using money to help others would quality you to enter, not because of the money used to help others but by the help provided to others. Money is not the catalyst for membership, it’s the “help” you provide that demonstrates virtue within whether using money to help or volunteering time to help the elderly across the busy intersection or putting a bandaid on the wound of the infirm. That’s why it is hard, if not impossible, for a rich person to enter the kingdom; if it was only the God predestination what would be the point of man’s discretion the phrase “…for the exercise thereof….” would be meanngless.
So the camel & needle parable does not support Calvinism anymore that the judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought, supports Calvinism, regardless of the ancient, stone-chiseled “immovable” attributes.
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December 5, 2018 at 2:38 pm
Derek, I could just as easily supply a laundry list of Scriptures that make Arminianism seem obvious. That won’t solve the debate, and it wouldn’t help us understand this verse.
As for the history of the Bible, I don’t want to change the topic of this thread, but I would suggest you do some more studying on the transmission of the Biblical text because it’s not the case that the transmission is like the telephone game, and the Biblical text (particularly the NT) is extremely reliable. We can be more certain about the original wording of the NT than we can for virtually any other ancient text.
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December 5, 2018 at 2:48 pm
“For the same reason there is a free will “cause and effect” when a rich person placing greater value in his wealth than in virtue: compassion, kindness, generosity, empathy that would allow him to share wealth to help the poor, is missing, that restricts him from entering the Kingdom of Heaven where the virtue reigns and money not so much.”
Ah, but who is to say that is a free will choice? If God determines absolutely everything, including our very steps (as the Bible indicates), then isn’t it God who is determining which choices we will actually make? Thus, we must make the right decisions to be saved…but it’s not up to us which decisions we will make. I’m not sure there’s any other way to read it without dismissing all those passages I mentioned.
“Money is not the catalyst for membership, it’s the “help” you provide that demonstrates virtue within whether using money to help or volunteering time to help the elderly across the busy intersection or putting a bandaid on the wound of the infirm. That’s why it is hard, if not impossible, for a rich person to enter the kingdom; if it was only the God predestination what would be the point of man’s discretion the phrase “…for the exercise thereof….” would be meanngless.”
Good point, but if God is essentially the author of a novel, and we are the characters in that book, then WE are the ones who strive to achieve, WE are the ones making decisions, and WE are the ones who have to live with the consequences…but it is the author who wrote all of that, not us. So just as it is “hard” (although not impossible) for the villain of a novel to prevail, it would be “hard” (although not impossible) for a wealthy person to be saved. Hard for the narrative in God’s novel (which doesn’t favor the rich), that is, not necessarily hard for the wealthy person in terms of personal effort.
I hope I’m making my point clearer with the analogy, not harder. 😉
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December 5, 2018 at 2:58 pm
“I could just as easily supply a laundry list of Scriptures that make Arminianism seem obvious. That won’t solve the debate, and it wouldn’t help us understand this verse.”
Well that’s really my point. That “laundry list” of evidence for Arminianism should serve as evidence that your verse needs to be interpreted differently in order to avoid a contradiction? It’s a lot easier to interpret that one verse (and any references to decisions) differently than to interpret that list of passages I gave you differently, don’t you think?
“As for the history of the Bible, I don’t want to change the topic of this thread, but I would suggest you do some more studying on the transmission of the Biblical text because it’s not the case that the transmission is like the telephone game, and the Biblical text (particularly the NT) is extremely reliable. We can be more certain about the original wording of the NT than we can for virtually any other ancient text.”
Hmm, I don’t think that’s right. At least some biblical scholars would disagree, at least. From https://ehrmanblog.org/new-testament-manuscripts-good-news-and-bad-news/ : “if you take two New Testament manuscripts from around the year 1000 and compare them to one another, they are often very much alike in every verse. But if you do the same thing with the fragmentary copies made around the year 200, you find lots and lots of differences—differences both from the manuscripts of the year 1000 and, more disconcertingly, differences from one another. This tells us that the earliest scribes were not as skilled or assiduous as the later ones. And that’s a problem, because all of our surviving manuscripts were copied from earlier manuscripts, and the earliest copies of all were filled with mistakes. If our earliest known copyists made tons of mistakes, how many mistakes were made by their predecessors, who produced the copies that they copied? We have no way of knowing.”
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December 5, 2018 at 3:12 pm
derekmathias:
” I’m not sure there’s any other way to read it without dismissing all those passages I mentioned.”
That’s easy; dismiss all those passages you mentioned except for the reference:
“• John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS THEM.
• John 6:37 ALL THOSE THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
Nope. The Father is the Truth of Be-ing; the Essence of a person within. The truth that is within those who hear the truth will be attracted to Jesus..who spoke the truth, and all those who came attracted to the truth, he, Jesus, will never drive away.
He is not talking about the chiseled in stone God of the O. T. that all the scriptures you mentioned are.
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December 5, 2018 at 4:06 pm
“That’s easy; dismiss all those passages you mentioned except for the reference”
Isn’t picking and choosing which passages to believe and which to disregard referred to rather disparagingly as “buffet Christianity”? Isn’t THIS why there are 45,000 denominations of Christianity, all of which disagree with other denominations? This wasn’t supposed to happen:
• John 17:20-23 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE–I in them and you in me–SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
“He is not talking about the chiseled in stone God of the O. T. that all the scriptures you mentioned are.”
Yeah, but it’s the same God in the OT as in the NT, right?
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December 5, 2018 at 5:38 pm
derekmathias:
One has to have discernment to understand scripture not merely “believe” every single line; that’s just were you and countless Christians are wrong. It’s the “believe every word, every line” syndrome that has caused the tens of thousands of humungous variations that church chiseled in stone dogma promotes that has confused everybody.
If every word is inerrant then there’s nothing you can’t read into it or take from it. Because dogmatic scripture without discernment, like the sands of the desert, fixed and immutable, yet, ever shifting the words of god are infinitely versatile. Open that book and watch them dance across the page like ninjas, each one a soldier for you and your petty prejudices or doctrinal divisions and they all say the same thing IT IS WRITTEN.
And no the OT God it is not the same God to everybody in the NT. The OT God is a morphed version of ancient mythology, the old God of mythology it is not the God Jesus referred to as the Father. Jesus brought a new God to humanity which is why he needed to revolutionize religion by bringing the God within you to the forefront.
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December 10, 2018 at 10:03 am
also not a Calvinist, and I also think that verse means — “people with wealth tend to trust in their wealth, making it difficult for them to place their trust in Christ.”
But God is sovereign so He can grant eternal life to whom He wants because of Jesus’ sacrifice. So that “the young rich ruler” who refused Jesus’ invitation may not a member of His Church — but why believe that mean he is damned. he could be granted eternal life at the great white throne judgement just not granted access inside the gates of the New Jerusalem where the members of Jesus’ Church can come and go as they please.
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December 10, 2018 at 12:15 pm
Dear Paul V:
With all due respect:
To grant is a human attribute; God-Higher Powers-Evolution do not grant.
The Crucifixion, torture and shame demon-strated the pervasive sin that was reigning in the world and I am pleased to tell you that the Life and Message of Jesus granted the first recognition that there was something fundamentally wrong with religion as it was practiced and he set about on a campaign to revolutionize religion with a view to open eyes to a reality hitherto unknown to mankind. The crucifixion torture and shame of Jesus demon-strated the result of mankind out of sync, that allowed humanity to fall into the wallow of mankind’s self sufficiency.
How many times have you heard Jesus died on the cross for our sins? That has become the most meaningless, useless, out of context sentence in Christianity. That was not what saved anybody, forgave anybody or absolved anybody.
Never talk about Jesus dying for our sins; that was part of the plan if necessary but it was the life of Jesus, the things he did, the words he spoke, who he was and that his mission meant for us to follow him.
But Jesus granted. He granted the extraordinary idea of the knowledge that the Higher powers-Evolution-God was not external to the human experience but was in fact, within the creature and could not be excluded from the creature otherwise.
Anything you do that derives from other than letting Divine Logic do it, is sin. Sin isn’t an act. Sin is that errant, conceited attitude of human self sufficiency. Sin is that attitude that says Divine Logic is for old women and those who need a crutch. That’s just where humans are wrong. They’re the devil’s dupe. That’s why life is so twisted.
Whatsoever is not of faith in the Divine Logic, is sin; in the day that man believed the devil’s(ego’s) lie that a man could be man without God-Higher Powers-Evolution and the Divine Logic within you and embarked on that mad experiment of human self sufficiency, the holy spirit was withdrawn from the human spirit and man had a body and a soul just like any other animal but not being protected by instinct couldn’t behave like an animal and not now being governed by the Divine Logic of the Father-Higher-Powers-Evolution couldn’t behave like a man so he behaves like the maniac he does and you and I are the heirs of the chaos and the anarchy and holocaust that is the inevitable consequence of man’s stupidity and Divine Logic, first revealed through Jesus Christ, is saying GET BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG!
And if you accept that and live accordingly; then, all there is of God, Higher Powers, Evolution is available to s/he who is available to all there is of Evolution, Higher Powers, God; furthermore, all there is of Good is available to s/he who is available to all there is of good.
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December 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm
Spiritual Giant …….. you think outside the “theist box” but not outside the “atheist box.”
of course there is something wrong with “religion” because people use it for power over others. but there is excellent advice in the bible on how we should live.
If you believe God is a psychopath you can find evidence in the bible that God is a psychopath. If you are a Calvinist you can find evidence for your beliefs in the bible. but a fact is a fact and if a bible verse contradicts a fact either you are misinterpreting that verse or it is not inspired by God.
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December 10, 2018 at 1:14 pm
“but a fact is a fact and if a bible verse contradicts a fact either you are misinterpreting that verse or it is not inspired by God.”
Unless God is indeed a psychopath. 😉 After all, many claim God is necessary in order for us to be moral, and so if God lacks his own God to keep him moral…couldn’t he be a psychopath? How else to explain God allowing atrocities to be committed? Especially if those passages I mentioned are true:
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end–even the wicked for the day of disaster. [He doesn’t just determine SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
I’m not sure how one can interpret these passages as permitting free will, and without free will God is responsible for absolutely everything…including atrocities.
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December 10, 2018 at 1:26 pm
But a fact is a fact, what does that mean? There is a spirit in man and so by that spirit the written word is written whether it is the bible or the three blind mice. It is the same spirit.
How can a bible verse contradict a fact(example please); and ” you are misinterpreting….or it is not inspired by God…….” what is ” not inspired” the “fact” or my “interpretation”; or, the verse?
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December 10, 2018 at 1:42 pm
“How can a bible verse contradict a fact(example please)”
Well, there are many examples. Like this one:
• John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.
• Exodus 33:20 “But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
• 1 Timothy 6:15-16 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
• Contradiction: Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
• Contradiction: Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
• Contradiction: Exodus 6:2-3 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty.”
• Contradiction: Exodus 24:9-11 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
• Contradiction: Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
• Contradiction: Numbers 12:6-8 he said, “Listen to my words: “When there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions, I speak to them in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.
Either no one has ever seen God or people have seen God, thus one set of claims must be wrong. This makes some Bible verses contradict facts.
Although I suppose it’s possible to add special mitigating circumstances (like a material version of God vs. a spirit one), but then we’re not supposed to do that:
• Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is flawless. … Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
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December 10, 2018 at 2:35 pm
derekmathias:
There is a very reasonable argument against the anti free will proverbs you cite.
Many Proverbs are helpful and give insight to what we have witnessed ourselves or which are reasonable things to assume that we have not seen or participated in; however, predetermination that forsakes free choice in the proverbs you cite dispense with normal human experience that we know: discretionary insight, judgment, decision making, agree or disagree and reasoned thought all of which we understand and have generally participated in or witnessed others doing so. But those those Proverbs are wrong and lopsided
I would call those proverbs “The Dogma Proverbs” because they lack insight into human experience and go against human experience. These Dogma Proverbs are those that religion uses to give all credit to God for everything.(and all debit too except when they create the Devil to account for the bad but even God caused that too right…..
But you would have to be a honey bee guided by instinct, or a monarch butterfly born in one country and fly thousands of miles to other countries they’ve never been to, to know about instinct. Of course the dogma proverbs would attribute instinct to God as well. And so forth with all the insects even the insects that get splattered on your windshield or air intake grills for radiators. That God causes the bug cleaning industry niche to be very lucrative in the economy; well, that’s his bailiwick too.
Dogma Proverbs do not negate reason, discretion, decision making; in fact. the Proverbs that caution one to avoid certain conditions themselves would be negated by the Dogma Proverbs, and if that was the case, the cautionary Proverbs would be useless and meaningless and would serve no purpose.
Predetermination is really the religious way of extolling the God for which he is the messenger so his father has to be greater than your father. Determinism and its companion fallacy, Fatalism has the same outcome. It’s the lazy man’s reason to continue being a sloth because nothing the sloth does matters anyway so stay lazy, eat, drink and suck up all the cares and riches and pleasures of the world for then you die and back to God you go.
And what about service to others and helping the poor, feeding the hungry…well, says dogma, let those little suckers go feed themselves, I’m not working my fingers to the bone feeding them let the little suckers get their own food…..bye now.
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December 10, 2018 at 2:43 pm
And why do people insist on giving God human attributes. Men are psychopaths; there’s one in the White House now trying to start war mongering with Macron of France because Macron shamed Trump at the Commemoration of the 100th end of WW I when Macron talked about the sham of Nationalism and the benefits of Globalization from which everybody benefits not just the wealthy Greeders.
Just had to get that dig in didn’t I.
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December 10, 2018 at 3:44 pm
Derekmathias
Here’a little scriptural reading to explain how you can see the Lord that nobody has seen nor can see, and hear the voice that nobody has heard nor can hear!
Those verses are not contradictions. You see, in those days when someone wanted to speak to God or when God would appear in the garden to speak to somebody, here’s what you have to know.
In the days of the Prophets the Prophet was considered to be the conduit through whom God spoke to the masses, the rulers even the King and through whom they too spoke back to God. Even today the Pope is considered God on Earth.
So when the King had a problem he went to the local Prophet, knocked on the door (or sent his emissary to beckon the Prophet to the castle) Knock knock. Door opens and the Prophet says:
“Come in Moses and Aaron. Good to see you again. To what do I owe tpleasure of your company,?”
” We, we ahh we ahhh ha-have a-Bi-a bi-a big p-p-p-prob-problem problem and ne-ne-nee–we needed guid-guidance from the L-L-Lo-Lo-Lord ord Lord.” said Moses; Te-tell him Aaron…
“Come in, Come in. To the inner chamber and we’ll chat with the Almighty in the Sanctuary.”
“Th–than..th Thank you” stuttered Moses.
“Yes, thank you” Aaron followed the courtesy.
“Yes I understand.” the Prophet replies and sprinkles incense onto the hot coals glowing amber in the Ark of the Covenant and smoke filled the air.
“The Lord has heard your concerns and knows your heart is pure for the Lord” says the Prophet.
The Prophets chants his prayer and sings a little ditty as the chian rattles against the gold chalice and smoke rises again with another sprinkle of incense and the only sound in the sanctuary is the sound of silence as the heartbeats of Moses and Aaron ready themselves to hear the Lord speak directly to them.
A wavering chant and billows of incense curl upward the Salvia divinorum leaves sparking with fire are consumed to facilitate the visionary state of communication and suddenly the Lord while the Prophet interprets and relays the message. Turning to Moses the words flow easily from the mouth of the Prophet in ecstasy trance.
Moses and Araon now on bended knees listen intently as the words of the Lord echo and bounce off the sanctuary acoustic contoured walls.
8 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
And the Prophet demonstrated the magic of the the Rod and passed the Sceptre Rod to Aaron. Both Aaron and Moses bade the Prophet go-goo–good-b-b-byye goodbye as beads of sweat glistened as great drops wetted their garments from the close encounter with the God of Abraham and headed to Pharaoh’s Court.
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Then after the Magicians performance, Pharaoh called the Security Soldiers to escort Aaron and Moses to the doors leading out of the Court amid the laughter and chuckles of the sorcerers heh heh hehe….
So the moral of the story is that Moses and Aaron saw the Lord and spoke to the Lord and the voice of the Lord spoke to them.
And Moses was totally piss-pis-pis-pissed off!
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December 10, 2018 at 4:15 pm
“predetermination that forsakes free choice in the proverbs you cite dispense with normal human experience that we know: discretionary insight, judgment, decision making, agree or disagree and reasoned thought all of which we understand and have generally participated in or witnessed others doing so. But those those Proverbs are wrong and lopsided”
Well, if those Proverbs are wrong, then who knows what can you trust in the Bible, right?
But I have to note that all those examples of evidence for free will are simply arguments from ignorance fallacies. The complexity of our experiences are not evidence for free will. Most physicists and neurologists think that free will may be an illusion. After all, atoms behave deterministically–meaning based on cause and effect–and all matter in the universe–including us–is made of atoms. This implies that we ourselves operate deterministically, and thus lack free will. One might be tempted to point to the Uncertainty Principle, saying quantum mechanics shows that the universe actually operates not with certainty but with probability–and because random events can occur, that leaves an opening for free will to exist. But the problem is that the uncertainty in quantum mechanics is truly random, meaning that the randomness can influence us…but we can’t influence it. The Uncertainty Principle might cause us to make a different decision than the one we might expect from all the events that led up to that moment, but if so, that choice would be random, not as a result of our will.
Even more interesting, I think, is the results of recent experiments measuring brain activity during the process of making a “free will” decision. A functional MRI scanner can detect changes in blood flow in your brain that reveal exactly which decision you will make up to ten seconds BEFORE you believe you are making that decision (I’ll put the links below). Think about that for a moment…a full ten seconds before you are even consciously aware of making a free will decision, your brain has already made the decision for you, entirely unconsciously. Only late in the process does your brain allow you to THINK you are consciously making the decision, even though the decision has already been made. While the experiment is simple and may not reflect more complex moral decisions, it’s still powerful evidence that free will is nothing more than an illusion.
If we operate deterministically, merely responding to cause and effect like all other matter in the universe, then why would our brains fool us into thinking we have free will? There actually is a sociobiological explanation for why we may have evolved such a perception. People who read information challenging the existence of free will prior to taking a test are more likely to cheat on that test. Since morality is necessary for the success of all social species, and humans are among the most social of social species, the perception of free will may have evolved as a mechanism to increase moral behavior. Better to live with the illusion that free will exists if it means increased survival for the species. (By the way, if that’s true, then it may be a good idea if you just forget having read this…. 😉 )
Realizing that free will is likely nothing more than an illusion doesn’t mean we should stop helping those in need or prosecuting criminals. After all, even if we are essentially robots–slaves to a complex mix of cause and effect–we still have motivations and we still want to live in safe, friendly societies, right? Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior contributes to the cause and effect that results in the world we want to live in.
https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/52317624/1
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will
http://www.kurzweilai.net/do-we-have-free-will
http://www.kurzweilai.net/more-evidence-that-youre-a-mindless-robot-with-no-free-will
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December 10, 2018 at 4:21 pm
“And why do people insist on giving God human attributes. Men are psychopaths”
I would say we do so mainly because it’s behavior we can understand. If you just say “God acts in mysterious ways,” there’s nowhere to go from there. You can no longer evaluate whether someone who behaves that way is someone who is moral or immoral. I believe we have to make decisions based on what we KNOW, not what we don’t know.
“there’s one in the White House now trying to start war mongering with Macron of France because Macron shamed Trump at the Commemoration of the 100th end of WW I when Macron talked about the sham of Nationalism and the benefits of Globalization from which everybody benefits not just the wealthy Greeders.”
I don’t know if he’s actually trying to start a war, but he’s certainly doing serious damage to our alliances around the world.
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December 10, 2018 at 4:29 pm
“So the moral of the story is that Moses and Aaron saw the Lord and spoke to the Lord and the voice of the Lord spoke to them.”
Umm…but how does that square with these passages?:
• John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.
• Exodus 33:20 “But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
• 1 Timothy 6:15-16 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
If it were as you say, wouldn’t these passages read like this?:
• John 1:18 No one has ever seen God directly.
• Exodus 33:20 “But,” he said, “you cannot see my actual face, for no one may see me directly and live.”
• 1 Timothy 6:15-16 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see, although it’s possible to see the prophets through whom he speaks.
I mean, you have to admit the original passages are extremely deceptive at the very least because they make clear, absolute statements that are the actual opposite of what you say they mean.
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December 10, 2018 at 5:30 pm
Derekmathias:
It is so simple if you talked to the Prophet then you talked to God. If you saw the Prophet you saw God. It is not a rocket science project. The Prophet was God in the Flesh the Prophet was the voice of God as a metaphor for being the Representative so talking and seeing the Prophet was talking and seeing God.
The verses you are quoting are about the God that is invisible, that nobody talks to and to whom God does not talk. That is the invisible that no man can see nor can see. So the other scriptures that talk about seeing God or talking to God that is the Representatives. The Ambassadors, the Messengers.
At the United Nations the Ambassadors speak for and on behalf of he President of the Country, theoretically but the President is not at the United Nations and nobody can see him at the UN but he is there embodied in theAmbassador.
It is a simple understanding derekmathias and if you don’t want to accept that well that’s your disadvantage to support your contention that these verses are contradictory and (they are in theory) but metaphorically they are one and the same.
Here get this modern day attribute of the Pope I mentioned previously just so you don’t have to look it up yourself.
“Throughout the centuries of Rome’s existence, the popes have regularly claimed to be divine. As the supposed successor of Peter, the Pope claims infallibility, the position of God on Earth, and ability to judge and excommunicate angels.
A letter from Cardinal Giuseppe Sarto (who became Pope Pius X in 1903) as quoted in Publications of the Catholic Truth Society Volume 29 (Catholic Truth Society: 1896): 11.
A letter from Cardinal Giuseppe Sarto (who became Pope Pius X in 1903) as quoted…
Cardinal Sarto, who became Pope Pius X, said this:
The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself…i
This belief has so assimilated into society’s thinking that it is believed by many beyond Catholic circles. According to TIME, Pope John Paul II’s assassination attempt prompted a young Jewish man to say, “shooting the Pope—It’s like shooting God.”
In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II:
Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth.
This was no different in the days of the Prophets and the Sons of the prophets only more directly and more assuredly the Prophets were considered God on Earth. So when you spoke to the Prophet you spoke to God and if you looked upon the Prophet you looked upon God.
Now this is what modern day tells.
Imagine when this was in vogue in ancient stoneagism. if you disagreed then God (Prophet) could strike you dead and run you through with the sword if you or claimed that scripture contradicted scripture. metaphorically or otherwise they did not make any distinction……….which is why the first four commandments were religious decrees and punishable by death for disobedience. In the Good Old Days eh!
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December 10, 2018 at 5:35 pm
I don’t care what they say; I know what they mean.
Knowledge will set you free; Belief never will and never can, for never and never. Amen.
I do not have any problem understanding the distinction because knowledge sets me free.
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December 11, 2018 at 4:23 pm
“It is so simple if you talked to the Prophet then you talked to God. If you saw the Prophet you saw God.”
Then why would the Bible SPECIFICALLY say that nobody has seen God when seeing a prophet is synonymous with seeing God? Does it make any sense at all that the word of an all-knowing being would be unable to make the difference clear? Any of us could do a better job, even without the benefit of omniscience.
“The verses you are quoting are about the God that is invisible, that nobody talks to and to whom God does not talk.”
The Bible says nothing about referencing an invisible God. It merely says nobody has ever seen God. Period. You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there.
“It is a simple understanding derekmathias and if you don’t want to accept that well that’s your disadvantage to support your contention that these verses are contradictory and (they are in theory) but metaphorically they are one and the same.”
I’m sorry, but your interpretation sounds anything but simple to me since it requires adding missing information that makes the meaning the literal opposite of what it says. If something so simple and direct as “No one has ever seen God” is supposed to actually mean the opposite, then nothing in the Bible can be trusted. It means you can add whatever you want to make it fit with whatever you believe. That does not make sense to me at all.
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December 11, 2018 at 4:29 pm
“I don’t care what they say; I know what they mean.”
Isn’t that what EVERY Christian says? There are 45,000 different denominations withing Christianity, all of which disagree with the interpretations of other denominations. They can all point to the scripture that supports their interpretation…but if you can just add words to make something mean the opposite of what it says in order to fit your interpretation, is it any wonder there are so many denominations?
I suspect this wasn’t what Jesus had in mind when he said his prayer in John 17:20-23.
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December 11, 2018 at 5:08 pm
derekmathias:
“……The Bible says nothing about referencing an invisible God. It merely says nobody has ever seen God. Period. You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there……”
“…..Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature….”: (Colossians 1-15). AKA “….He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15)
“…..Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen….” (1 Timothy 1:17).
“That does not make sense to me at all.”
Actually, from your writings, one can easily and reasonably conclude, if it wasn’t for nonsense you would have no sense at all.
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December 11, 2018 at 5:10 pm
derekmathias:
How do you read and understand the Curse of Canaan; AKA the Curse of Ham. What did Ham do, to have his son cursed by Noah?
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December 11, 2018 at 5:20 pm
When speaking to a baby, one needs to speak baby knowledge.
11 “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways.” (1 Corinthians 13:11)
derekmathias, you need to set aside childish ways.
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December 11, 2018 at 6:01 pm
derekmathias:
You know very little about the Bible, so very little because you are only textually active. Why? You are grammatically deficient. Obtuse.
If you’ve got a head full of scripture then what you’ve got is a head full of ideas that have stopped growing; that’ll be a head full of dead ideas then. And you have no right to have those ideas respected or taken seriously. You’re simply not entitled to it and you’ve certainly got no business using them to tell other people what they mean or how they should live their lives based on the bible.
Understanding the bible one must necessarily take into account metaphors, idioms, common sayings, phrases that say one thing but mean another thing like going fast “…like a bat out of hell….”; “We’re in hot water.”; “We’re all in the same boat.”; “You really put your foot in your mouth.”; “The judge threw the book at her.”; “This car can stop on a dime.”; “He passed the test by the skin of his teeth.”; “Does the alarm go off or does the alarm go on?” If you can’t understand reading between the lines, you will have little understanding of the bible.
AND you will never know the meaning of Name Mark or Number 666; or, And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name…………..
……………because you don’t know anything.
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December 11, 2018 at 8:45 pm
it’s easy to understand ….. if “salvation is wholly determined by God’s choice” God doesn’t need “our response.” that would be a fact. if the bible is God’s word there can’t be any verses stating God needs “our response.” if there are verses stating God needs “our response” we have a problem unless theses two things can be harmonized. so — God needs our response to join His Church which results in our salvation at the Second Coming. and God can also grant people eternal life (ie salvation) at the great white throne judgement because He is sovereign/Jesus’ sacrifice and that action doesn’t go against His nature. so both people are partly right and both people are partly wrong. many of the Christian arguments are not a yes or no situation.
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December 12, 2018 at 11:54 am
“Actually, from your writings, one can easily and reasonably conclude, if it wasn’t for nonsense you would have no sense at all.”
Well, accusations without evidence don’t really mean anything.
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December 12, 2018 at 11:55 am
“How do you read and understand the Curse of Canaan; AKA the Curse of Ham. What did Ham do, to have his son cursed by Noah?”
I don’t. I’ve never mentioned any of that because it’s not part of the discussion.
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December 12, 2018 at 11:56 am
“derekmathias, you need to set aside childish ways.”
Again, evidence, please. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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December 12, 2018 at 11:58 am
“You know very little about the Bible, so very little because you are only textually active. Why? You are grammatically deficient. Obtuse.”
Not to beat a dead horse here…but evidence?
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December 12, 2018 at 12:32 pm
The evidence: your writings.
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December 12, 2018 at 12:35 pm
“What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you read it?” He asked
The young man did not shirk the question but answered.
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December 12, 2018 at 12:37 pm
Your answers are those of a dolt.
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December 12, 2018 at 2:56 pm
“Your answers are those of a dolt.”
Really? Name even one of my answers that is not reasonable and defensible.
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December 12, 2018 at 3:09 pm
All answers rejected no understanding little ability to learn your own words back to you:
“…………….. it’s not part of the discussion……………”
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December 12, 2018 at 10:50 pm
“All answers rejected no understanding little ability to learn your own words back to you”
When the answers don’t make sense to me, of course I will reject them. And I explained my reasoning why. If you have a problem with my specific arguments, by all means feel free to detail why. But just insulting my knowledge without giving any specifics in place of an argument? That’s an ad hominem fallacy that only hurts your credibility, not mine.
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December 13, 2018 at 10:50 am
When I communicate with posters the essence of what’s in their heart eventually comes to light and while they try to hide their motives Jesus told warned us to be alert and that
“…..there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and nothing concealed that will not be known and illuminated…..
Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen.
Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him…….”
And so with those words in mind I communicate with everyone who wishes to. And I pay attention to how I listen. I read their words, I understand what they are saying and I understand what they are not saying. Eventually every word I read is “matched” to every word in the bible because every word in the bible and I have read every word is drawn into the treasure in my heart (memory) within; metaphorically speaking, every word you write auto googles every word in the bible in my memory and from that vast encyclopedic library, summary scriptures surface.
And we have arrived.
From the Sermon of the Mount, you may have heard of it, Matthew beginning at Chapter 5 & 6 ends at chapter 7. Three chapters.
The scripture appropriate to end this commentary:
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
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December 13, 2018 at 12:42 pm
“When I communicate with posters the essence of what’s in their heart eventually comes to light and while they try to hide their motives Jesus told warned us to be alert and that…”
In other words, you don’t like what I have to say, but you have no evidence that what I say is wrong, so instead of trying to find better evidence to support your beliefs, you looked to the Bible to find justification to run away, right? You could have saved a lot of time and said that sooner.
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December 13, 2018 at 4:22 pm
The phrase, “In other words….” is misleading.
The phrase implies presumptive discernment that suggests the author has a degree of interpretive skills; however, previous “resume” samples of writing demonstrate a distinct deficiency in that regard making you unqualified.
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December 13, 2018 at 7:49 pm
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven
“If you want to give it all you’ve got,” Jesus replied, “go sell your possessions; give everything to the poor. All your wealth will then be in heaven.
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven.
So we should examine what is meant by the wealth, treasure and riches and what is “heaven” and where is “this heaven” located where earthly possessions of wealth, riches and treasure cannot go but are transposed by giving away to the poor? This can be explained if you understand Jesus message that the Kingdom of God is within you.
If we can interpret the what and the where of “heaven” we may be able to understand why the difficulty or why it is difficult and what is the difference of wealth, riches and treasures on earth compared to what it is in “heaven”. If selling one’s earthly possessions gives one great wealth in heaven then it should faollow that metaphors are being used in that riches and wealth given to the needy transpose into joy, good dee, compassion is wonderful, goodness and happiness is palpable…almost tangible.
This may be part of calvinism though I don’t understand why since we first need to be in the spirit that make the decision to part with earthly wealth especially while there are still physical needs to be met: eating, drinking and general human experience of life.
And maybe we can tackle the question by asking are there camels in heaven; how about needles?
Heaven is often described as a “higher place”, the holiest place, a Paradise, in contrast to hell or the Underworld or the “low places”, and universally or conditionally accessible by earthly beings according to various standards of divinity, goodness, piety, faith, or other virtues or right beliefs or simply the will of God (according to Calvinists) Some believe in the possibility of a heaven on Earth in a World to Come which to me is the only one that makes sense and where earthly concepts will exists.
One thing we know from scripture about a characteristic of heaven is revealed by the following following characterization by Paul:
50 “…..Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…..”
But compare the scripture “It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God” (Mt 19:24; Mk 10:25; Lk 18:25).
So paul says inherit the Kingdom of heaven and Jesus says “enter the Kingdom of God.”
I prefer Jesus’s characterization because Jesus also gives a location of the Kingdom, something Paul cannot do and I submit that Paul did not know or understand the Kingdom; so Paul has no credence; Paul merely philosophizes his pharisaical imagined idea of the Kingdom. Paul was of a supernatural skew and imagined Heaven as some external, nirvana place that people go to, as the ascension into heaven is the obvious example of the external notion of heaven.
A new heaven and a new earth suggests that civilization will reach a peak of knowledge when all disease is eliminated, no sickness, war, crime and anything harmful. his has more appeal because we can see it and the Prayer supports this…”thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, in your head, your brain, in your understanding.
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December 14, 2018 at 1:39 pm
“The phrase implies presumptive discernment that suggests the author has a degree of interpretive skills; however, previous “resume” samples of writing demonstrate a distinct deficiency in that regard making you unqualified.”
And here’s yet another ad hominem, once again indicative of a tacit admission that my arguments have a reasonable basis.
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December 14, 2018 at 6:59 pm
DM
Isn’t picking and choosing which passages to believe and which to disregard referred to rather disparagingly as “buffet Christianity”? Isn’t THIS why there are 45,000 denominations of Christianity, all of which disagree with other denominations?
LTG
“…..that’s just were you and countless Christians are wrong. It’s the “believe every word, every line” syndrome that has caused the tens of thousands of humungous variations that church chiseled in stone dogma, promotes that has confused everybody. (and spawned the variations of 45,000 denominations)
DM
Yeah, but it’s the same God in the OT as in the NT, right?
LTG
And no the OT God it is not the same God to everybody in the NT. The OT God is a morphed version of ancient mythology, the old God of mythology it is not the God Jesus referred to as the Father.
I would call those proverbs “The Dogma Proverbs” because they lack insight into human experience and go against human experience. These Dogma Proverbs are those that religion uses to give all credit to God for everything.
However, I have given you the benefit of the doubt.
In going over some of the communications I discovered that I have made several typos; for example,
“There is a very reasonable argument against the anti free will proverbs you cite. I would call those Proverbs “The Dogma Proverbs” because they lack insight into human experience and go against human experience. These Dogma Proverbs are those that religion uses to give all credit to God for everything.
And then, I said
Dogma Proverbs (do not negate), this is a typo and should have read (do not regard), or, (Dogma Proverbs disregard) reason, discretion, decision making; in fact. the Proverbs that caution one to avoid certain conditions themselves would be negated by the Dogma Proverbs; and if that (free will) was not the case, the cautionary Proverbs would be useless and meaningless and would serve no purpose.
This would have confused you and your answers accordingly and I read the answers according to what I meant to say but filede to say by mistake. That is my fault. Mea Culpa.
AND
Predetermination is really the religious way of applauding the God for which he (the religious zealot) is the messenger; his father has to be greater than your father. Another typo mistake. Mea Culpa.
“It is so simple: if you talked to the Prophet then you talked to God. If you saw the Prophet you saw God.”
DM
Then why would the Bible SPECIFICALLY say that nobody has seen God when seeing a prophet is synonymous with seeing God? Does it make any sense at all that the word of an all-knowing being would be unable to make the difference clear?
LTG Because the author in one instance is speaking “actual” and one author in the other instance is speaking metaphorically.
DM
Does it make any sense at all that the word of an all-knowing being would be unable to make the difference clear?
LTG
It makes sense because there is no ” word of an ‘all knowing being’ ” because there is no, “all-knowing-being” That is the morphing of the mythology of many Gods into the single Abrahamic One-God-Concept, that’s all God was in the OT: all the God Lumps into the One Lump God.
DM
The Bible says nothing about referencing an invisible God. It merely says nobody has ever seen God. Period. You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there.
LTG
“…..Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature….”: (Colossians 1-15). AKA “….He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15)
“…..Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen….” (1 Timothy 1:17).
DM ignored scriptures that refutes “You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there.
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December 17, 2018 at 12:10 pm
“that’s just were you and countless Christians are wrong. It’s the “believe every word, every line” syndrome that has caused the tens of thousands of humungous variations that church chiseled in stone dogma, promotes that has confused everybody. (and spawned the variations of 45,000 denominations)”
I can’t argue there. It seems that almost every Christian believes that almost all other Christians are wrong. But they are all equally earnest in their belief and they all have their biblical reasoning for their positions. It’s mind-boggling to me that an all-knowing God who wants everyone to be saved…
• 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 2 Peter 3:9 Instead [the Lord] is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE TO PERISH, but everyone to come to repentance.
…somehow wouldn’t have known this would happen and taken steps to correct it. It’s as if God wanted humanity to be utterly confused and deceived, right?
“And no the OT God it is not the same God to everybody in the NT.”
But the vast majority of Christians do believe they’re the same God.
“I would call those proverbs “The Dogma Proverbs” because they lack insight into human experience and go against human experience. These Dogma Proverbs are those that religion uses to give all credit to God for everything.”
Interesting. You’d think God would have omitted them if they don’t mean what they say.
“That is my fault. Mea Culpa.”
No problem.
“Because the author in one instance is speaking “actual” and one author in the other instance is speaking metaphorically.”
Again, there is no indication of this.
“DM ignored scriptures that refutes “You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there.”
I think you’ve missed the point. I AGREE that some passages say no one has seen God (in fact, I provided some of those passages). But there are ALSO passages that say the opposite. Those opposing passages do NOT distinguish between an actual God and a metaphorical one; they merely make the blanket statements that NO ONE has seen God and SOME have seen God, creating a contradiction that can only be resolved by ADDING material that is not in those passages. By mining passages from other books to support your claim, you’re just highlighting the contradictions. Again, don’t you think an all-knowing God would be smart enough to know that anyone reading such passages rationally would see them as contradictory? He could have EASILY fixed the problem but evidently chose not to. Why would he do such a thing if he didn’t intend to sow confusion?
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December 17, 2018 at 1:34 pm
1./ dm is missing the point.
dm said: “The Bible says nothing about referencing an invisible God. It merely says nobody has ever seen God. Period. You’re reading things into the Bible that are not there.” (Post 28)
Two scriptures were offered that reference the “invisible” God that dm says “The Bible says nothing about referencing an invisible God…..”
(Colossians 1-15) and (1 Timothy 1:17)
That is the point dm is missing.
———————————————————
2./ There is no entity that is “all-knowing”. All-knowing is a human concept.
———————————————————
3./ Why assume God is a “he”?
———————————————————
4./ Why assume God is smart?
——————————————————–
5./ He could have EASILY fixed the problem but evidently chose not to.
Why assume God chooses?
——————————————————-
6./ Everybody operating on a belief system assumes too many things too many times and are wrong too often.
——————————————————-
7./ Who made the curse of Ham; aka, the curse of Canaan and what did Ham do that caused the curse to be cursed?
——————————————————-
8./ Why would he do such a thing if he didn’t intend to sow confusion? The answer is obvious to me.
——————————————————
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December 17, 2018 at 2:17 pm
“That is the point dm is missing.”
Ah, well clearly the point that I’m missing is that you don’t believe the Bible is the true word of God, since it does refer to him as all knowing, a “he” and able to understand anything:
• 1 John 3:20 God is greater than our hearts, and HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
• Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: HIS UNDERSTANDING IS INFINITE.
• Job 37:16 those wonders of him who has PERFECT KNOWLEDGE.
Not that I’m disagreeing with your position, mind you, but the general assumption on a Christian blog is that the Bible is the true word of God unless mentioned otherwise.
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December 17, 2018 at 2:47 pm
Well that’s great.
I am a follower of Jesus; I am not a Christian which, imho, is a follower of church dogma; hence, religious insanity.
The Bible is the word of man. And man, self appointed or church appointed is a messenger who declares (therefore by God) that what they write or say or do or think is the word of God. In fact even their dreams were revelations from the God they claimed to be the messenger of.
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December 18, 2018 at 2:39 pm
“I am a follower of Jesus; I am not a Christian which, imho, is a follower of church dogma; hence, religious insanity.”
Okay, then. I just wish I’d known that several exchanges ago.
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December 18, 2018 at 2:52 pm
Does that mean we can have a reasoned common sense conversation without the preconceived “christian” notions you expected I should have had?
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December 18, 2018 at 2:53 pm
Does that mean you are willing to begin again for the first time?
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December 18, 2018 at 3:46 pm
“Does that mean you are willing to begin again for the first time?”
Well, if it’s coming from the premise that the Bible isn’t the literal word of God, then I don’t really have a problem with it–because then it’s easy to dismiss the inconvenient, creepy and contradictory passages and keep the parts that work for you. There’s no need to justify slavery, child murder or genocide for example. It’s just unfortunate that the Bible doesn’t come with a legend to indicate unequivocally what is intended to be read literally, what is to be read metaphorically, and what is to be ignored.
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December 18, 2018 at 4:39 pm
In the absence of a legend we need to be mindful of writing styles, idioms and normal sayings that crop up in language. “Growing like a weed”; “and being in anguish he prayed more earnestly and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”
It is for this reason I asked about the curse of Ham (Canaan) which can only be clearly understood; what actually happened metaphorically, the day Noah drank wine and was drunk from the fruits of his vineyard.
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December 19, 2018 at 6:16 am
I am not a Calvinist but if God “elects’ individuals for salvation then it is nonsensical to engage in any kind of evangelism or spreading of the gospel message. Furthermore the “whosoever believes” passages don’t make any sense either. Lastly it is the will of God that none perish but all be saved.
While God is the author of salvation we are not mere inanimate objects on puppet strings, we have free will to exercise choice as God stands at the door and knocks.
Calvinism is based on a wrong interpretation of Romans 11. God is not selecting individuals rather he is selecting people groups. In the new covenant the Gentiles have been added to His already chosen people Israel. The result of this means all peoples everywhere have a chance at salvation. This is the beauty and liberty of the new covenant.
Naz
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December 19, 2018 at 12:08 pm
THE MESSAGE:
Bend Not a Knee to Denominational IDOL-logy; It will Skew Righteousness.
Why do most people always talk about needing salvation? What does one need salvation from or salvation for; why and where did it all start if not within organized religion who alone defined sin and then proceeded to write the storybook to support the sin narrative, the Book of Genesis.
Alone I am just fine; with people around I suddenly have a multitude of sin; I always had sin; I need to be saved from sin. What sin are they talking about? “Their perceived sin”. And then blame it on(attribute it) to God saying God defined sin, exempting the authors for the story they had written.
Presumptive sin drilled into brains by other people, everybody else. But I was doing just fine with the Father and so was Jesus, just like me in the silence of his own heart away from the pulpit bullies. But now, they imply one must “belong” to a religion and then to the outgrowth of religion, the denomination.
Jesus belonged to no denomination; Jesus was free from that curse. Here’s what Jesus says about freedom and what he does not say: that you have to criticize other denominations.
Are you kidding?
JESUS: The Lord Jesus said, I’m free. I’m free. Because in the sinlessness of my humanity, In the silence of my own being, in my heart of heart, spirit of spirit, mind of mine, aloneness with the Father; I’ve entered into no contract, I have submitted myself to no obligation, I have indebted myself to nobody in such a way that I could not at all times do only exclusively what pleases him. That’s freedom.
You are free ladies and gentlemen when you have entered into no contract, indebted yourself to nobody, or any organization or denominational group, you’ve entered into no alliance that would make it at anytime impossible for you to do other than please him, then you’re free. Free. That’s perfect freedom. And you do not have to explain your freedom or defend your freedom which is what true freedom is.
The Christmas message should have been the Genesis message, a “Baby Born” but it wasn’t; it was focused only on the “act”, the “act of conception” and thereby threw filth on the origin, on the very essence of life itself and mankind has been fighting that tyranny induced ethos since the StoryBook of Genesis outlining the narrative that condemned mankind to a life of guilt since.
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December 19, 2018 at 2:22 pm
“In the absence of a legend we need to be mindful of writing styles, idioms and normal sayings that crop up in language.”
Well, that’s the problem. How can a book written as a manual for salvation by an all-knowing God who wants everyone to be saved NOT be perfectly clear to everyone who reads it? Given the facts I myself could do a far better job, and I’m far from all knowing! This more than anything leads me to doubt its veracity.
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December 19, 2018 at 2:35 pm
“I am not a Calvinist but if God “elects’ individuals for salvation then it is nonsensical to engage in any kind of evangelism or spreading of the gospel message. Furthermore the “whosoever believes” passages don’t make any sense either.”
Not necessarily. Even if free will doesn’t exist, there are actions that can trigger events to happen. Spreading the gospel may be the necessary step in order to cause a specific individual to become a Christian. Belief isn’t a choice (just try to will yourself to believe in Santa Claus and you’ll see what I mean), but certain events can take place that cause the subconscious events necessary for belief to occur.
“Lastly it is the will of God that none perish but all be saved.”
I’m very well aware of at least two passages that make that clear…which is why it makes no sense to me that the Bible isn’t automatically understood by all who read it. It’s no better written than if primitive tribesmen wrote it…and that should be a concern for everyone who believes in the Bible.
“While God is the author of salvation we are not mere inanimate objects on puppet strings, we have free will to exercise choice as God stands at the door and knocks.”
If salvation depends on free will, as you say, why in the world would free will appear NOWHERE in the Bible. All it talks about is the need to make the right choices…but again, who says choice requires free will? Computer programs make choices all the time without any free will at all. And how does one explain the following passages if free will exists?
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end–even the wicked for the day of disaster. [He doesn’t just determine SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
Can you blame people for reading this and concluding that free will is merely an illusion? If free will exists, why would God allow such utterly confusing passages to be in the Bible? It just makes no sense to me.
“Calvinism is based on a wrong interpretation of Romans 11.”
And you don’t think their scholars have thought through their theology as thoroughly as you have yours? Is it possible they simply interpret the scripture differently because of the ambiguity that fills the Bible?
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December 19, 2018 at 4:58 pm
Arguments can be made for anything or made against anything. We may be slaves to genes, environment, parasitic influence. Is it randomly firing neurons that cause dreams or is there a dimension that tickles our neurons to fire in particular ways.
Now the animal kingdom is protected; each species has a built in computerized program we call for convenience sake, instinct. And this built in computerized program called instinct operative within the animal soul teaching its mind, controlling its emotions and directing its will, protects it. Governs its behaviour so that its behaviour patterns are predictable because they’re repetitive. The fisherman knows where to go to catch his fish, the bird watcher knows at what time of the year and where to see the species that he seeks to find. A spider doesn’t have to go to school to learn how to spin.
The built in computerized program called instinct will govern their migratory paths, there feeding habits, their building skills, their mating seasons. In this fantastic way instinct protects the animal kingdom but man isn’t protected that way for a very good reason. When the animal kingdom behaves the way it does, it does so because it must. There’s a rigid interlock between the instinctive thrust and the animal soul. So that what it does it does by the Law of Compulsion. By doing what it does it’s not saying anything; the bee, in its magnificent corporate behaviour that is essential to the survival of the swarm in what it’s doing it’s not saying I love you, and I wanted to be the kind of bee that you want me to be, see. No, the bee isn’t saying that. The bee is simple doing what it does, and it’s absolutely magnificent the way it does it, because it must.
But man is a creature that can love. And the only thing that satisfies love is to be loved. The only thing that requires friendship is to be befriended. And you can’t compel another person’s friendship and you can’t compel another person’s love. You can’t go to somebody with your fist clenched and say you’re going to be my friend. Did you make friends like that? I didn’t get my wife that way; I keep her that way but I didn’t get her that way.
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December 19, 2018 at 5:00 pm
Take this story for example that somebody in their studies found an answer to the weird lifestyle and life cycle entwined with only one party. seemingly. getting a benefit:
‘So you are out in the woods or this pasture, and you see this ant crawling up this blade of grass. It climbs up to the top, and it climbs and it falls and it climbs and it falls and it climbs, trying to stay at the very top of this blade of grass. What is this ant doing? What is it in aid of? What goal is this ant trying to achieve by climbing this blade of grass? What’s in it for the ant?’
This question was posed by the philosopher Daniel Dennett. Before attempting an answer, it would be more advantageous to first understand the life cycle of Dicrocoelium Dendriticum , a parasitic flatworm that lives and breeds in grazing mammals such as cows. It starts off its life as an egg buried within the animal’s excrement awaiting its first host, the snail.
Nibbling at the feces, the snail becomes infected but, eventually, its defensive mechanism discharges the parasite (now in its larval stage) in a trail of slime where it lies in wait for its second host, the ant.
In turn, the ant consumes this discharge and soon the parasite proceeds to take control of certain nerves that allows it to ‘control’ the ant. During the day, the ant functions normally but come evening, the parasite ‘drives’ it up a blade of grass. Should a strong gush of wind blow it down, the ant will climb up the grass again and again.
This is repeated every evening until an animal comes along and devours the grass on which the ant is on. Via the ant, the parasite is now inside the liver of the animal, where it will spend the remainder of its adult life. This cycle is then repeated when its eggs are laid and distributed through the terminal host’s excrement.
With this newfound knowledge, the answer to the question ‘What’s in it for the ant?’ becomes clear and obvious, and that answer is a resounding nothing. The irrational and suicidal behaviour of the ant was certainly not self-serving.
Its death was in vain; it brought no benefit either to itself or its colony. The odd climbing pattern it displayed was simply due to the manipulation of the parasite in its attempt to increase its odds of propagating further.
This was a very interesting and clever analogy that was used. Imagine an idea so deceptively simple and so universally appealing. Though the idea in question may be entirely devoid of rationale or reason, it is compelling enough that it completely takes hold of the believer’s mind, much like the parasitic flatworm.
It can result in not only the irrational, as demonstrated by the ant, but also by intolerant and violent behaviour towards alternative ideas although the idea being fought for brings no benefit.
In order for this parasitic idea to thrive, it must be inculcated and what better medium than that of a child’s mind. Ripe, gullible and na ï ve, a child thinks the world of its parents and will readily accept such ideas with little resistance.
It is not an uncommon sight to find infected parents bringing their children along for protests when, ironically, both will know next to nothing about why exactly they are there. Before long, the same cycle is repeated again when the children become a reflection of their parents.
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December 19, 2018 at 5:34 pm
NOBODY KNOWS: They think they do but they don’t.
Some people think they do and sometimes they do know some things but why people die, nobody knows. They analyze the processes that seem to be the cause but they don’t know why so they make believe. And nobody wants life to end; it is man who wants that done should perish but that man merely extrapolates man’s desire to an entity of figment to make the seemingly unimaginable, bearable. Jannah, Nirvana, Heaven……..The Vedic thinkers introduced the idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell in proportion to one’s merit, and when this runs out, one returns and is reborn
However, nobody knows and that most assuredly includes believers, not just scholars and academics.
Knowing what you don’t know is a good start to get a handle on this weird thing we call life; equally, or even more weird is this thing called death; we think we can understand life, at least the operation and functionality of life but death; nobody can understand or shed any light on death.
So far pseudo answers are available only to imagination. Groups form by organizations that mouse-hole people into the most popular ideas some of which have been around in various tangents since mankind which I can only believe that is as old as the cosmos itself which is to say ageless.
All we need to do is find the recycling program we are subject to; maybe we can take some comfort in that knowledge but we need to imagine what that might look like or be struck by an lightening axiom:
A self-evident and necessary truth, or a proposition whose truth is so evident at first sight that no reasoning or demonstration can make it plainer.
In other words: If there was a God one would ever say, ‘If there was a God’, again.
Lightening from the East lighting unto the West; Son of Man; Alien visitation. the Gods; Google/AI (IA in French) free will, predestination. Pick your poison but tell me why “any” is better than “any” other.
At this stage “one guess as good as the other.”
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December 21, 2018 at 7:01 am
Derek I understand where you’re coming from and you make some good points. Let me try to address your points :
Free Will/Belief
If free will is not “real” and the choices we make are somehow done by God, then how would we know this ? God’s foreknowledge of our decisions and choices doesn’t necessarily mean He is the author of our choices. If we do not have genuine free will then God is causing people to sin and that doesn’t make sense either with what we know about God’s moral character. If free will is not true how does that change what decisions we make and how we go about our daily lives ? Practically and sensibly it makes more sense to accept that we have free will since not only does that grant us the ultimate freedom but also makes us ultimately culpable for our actions.
Regarding salvation and belief in God, I know it’s more than just a simple choice. There are many factors involved and I am not smart enough to dissect how one person comes to faith and another doesn’t. While it’s not 100% choice, choice is definitely a part of it.
Bible interpretation
At the root of this whole discussion is the apparent contradictions you see in the bible. Why do you assume everyone should “automatically” understand the scriptures ? Didn’t Philip have to show the Ethiopian the meaning of Isaiah ? Didn’t Peter say there are those that “twist the scriptures to their own destruction” ? Salvation is not about decoding some ancient text to come away with the hidden secret knowledge so that you can escape the Matrix 🙂 Salvation is about simply hearing with faith the message of Jesus Christ. Just think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus…. it’s that simple.
When it comes to the bible, the biggies are context and language. The English translation of the Hebrew and Greek sometimes doesn’t do the original text justice. But more importantly the context of a passage is the main problem when it comes to sound interpretation. Those verses in proverbs you cited are not concrete proof to the notion of no free will. For example, “A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.”, why can’t this mean that the way in which a person walks is based on his trust and faith in the Lord. If God teaches you not to sin is He not directing your steps ?
I personally don’t have a big issue with contradictory bible passages. While there are few I struggle with they are not game breakers to me because I’m not trying to create some perfect puzzle where all the pieces of the bible fit perfectly. If we focus on the simple and most important truth of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, everything else will fall into place. We have to accept the fact that we do not understand everything and that this lack of understanding may be the missing links to our biblical confusions. These confusing passages cannot be the basis of your faith, rather we need to stick to what we do know for certain.
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Calvinism
Calvinism is one of many “isms” out there today. The beauty and freedom of the gospel is that can give simple people like you and me understanding. We do not need to be scholars, God is not a respecter of persons. We don’t need a title behind our name to understand and know what we are talking about. I would be leery of any “ism” because someone or some group went out of their way to invent a new concept to “explain” bible verses. These “isms” are usually wrong and filled with error as is Calvinism IMO.
I sympathize with you and understand some of these things can be confusing. Ultimately we are trusting in a person not a book. It’s amazing we have anything at all really when we realize how ancient these writings are. They have certainly survived the test of time as here we are in the 21st century still talking about them.
Merry Christmas and best regards,
Naz
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December 21, 2018 at 9:45 am
OMG there was a movie about free will that explained things perfectly it was called “Free Willy”. And furthermore if you cite Paul as explaining any thing other than basic philosophy you lose. If you need to quote scripture to back up your understanding, quote Jesus ………….p-ul-lease.
Don’t tell me what Paul said; Paul spent his life persecuting and prosecuting and murdering followers and was quite possibly, standing gleefully at the foot of the cross.
If you can’t find a scripture supported by the words of Emmanuel forget Paul. In today’s world the righteousness of the Law holds everything against an individual…no forgiveness…Called a “record” it will stay with a person all the days of life. Can we imagine that was not the case in former days for Paul? for David? who sent Bathsheba’s husband to the front to be sacrificed to the enemy so the desire for the soldier’s wife could be fulfilled “lawfully”……?
When Bathsheba announced she was pregnant by him, David immediately tried to “cover his tracks.” He summoned home her husband, a famous and noble warrior. David dined with her husband, Uriah, and told him to go home to his wife, trying to set a scene where Uriah could possibly be seen as impregnating his wife. When that didn’t work, he wrote in a letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die.
And the shooters shot from off the wall upon thy servants; and some of the king’s servants be dead, and thy servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.
And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband.
And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord……and displeased me also……
Sins of the people are set forth as a record to be held against the sinners even today they are penalized for their sins unto perpetuity while hanging behind the Judge, the motto:
Meaning of ‘Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense’ Nowadays, this expression could be used to say, “Honte à celui qui y voit du mal,” or “Shame on the one who sees something bad [or evil] in it.” AND
Dieu et mon droit meaning God and my right,
Expressions that have always served the “righteousness” of the wealthy and powerful, never the of the hungry, downtrodden and the poor. I don’t buy any of the religious BS.
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December 21, 2018 at 4:13 pm
“Some people think they do and sometimes they do know some things but why people die, nobody knows.”
Well, there is an evolutionary explanation for death that makes sense. Unaging species can’t easily evolve because they fully occupy their environment and consume all the available resources their offspring would need to survive. With fewer offspring surviving, there is no steady introduction of new genetic variation into the population and evolution slows to a crawl. That lack of genetic variation increases vulnerability to diseases (this is also why sexual reproduction is so successful, since it mixes up the gene pool), and the inability to evolve relatively quickly reduces the species’ ability to adapt to changing environmental conditions.
Furthermore, genetic, physiological and psychological damage accumulates in adults over time, and repairing that damage is biologically more difficult than starting over with offspring using undamaged sex cells (not that sex cells don’t also accumulate damage, but those that do fail to fertilize or they miscarry).
Thus, species with adults that die after they have successfully reproduced are less vulnerable to disease and can adapt much quicker to changing environments, thus increasing the species’ odds of survival.
A different way of looking at it is to say, “a chicken is an egg’s way of making another egg.” Once successful reproduction has been achieved, the chicken (or any other living creature) is mostly irrelevant (although for species that require care and learning through childhood, the usefulness of adults is extended until the offspring are capable of surviving on their own).
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December 21, 2018 at 4:56 pm
“If free will is not “real” and the choices we make are somehow done by God, then how would we know this ?”
You ask good questions. The answer to this is…we wouldn’t know. As long as we have the PERCEPTION of free will, it would be impossible to know.
“If we do not have genuine free will then God is causing people to sin and that doesn’t make sense either with what we know about God’s moral character.”
Ah, but where do we learn about God’s moral character? From God himself, in the Bible. If God is good, then he wouldn’t lie (unless he needed to manipulate people, but that wouldn’t be necessary for an all-powerful being). But what if he is evil? A malevolent God would have no problem CLAIMING he has a strong moral character…but as everyone knows, actions speak louder than words. Ask yourself what behaviors you yourself use to identify evil, malevolent persons. Your list likely includes such behaviors as murder and genocide, animal and human sacrifice, torture, child and animal abuse, theft, slavery, rape, incest, cannibalism, betrayal, lying, megalomania, sociopathy, narcissism, and so on. But if you read the entire Bible, you find that it’s not Satan who commits or condones all these behaviors…it’s God. I can provide biblical examples of God committing or condoning ALL these behaviors if you’d like, but I’m sure you can find your own. So if one’s moral character is judged by one’s behavior…what does that say about God? Wouldn’t an evil God be willing to lie about his own moral character?
“If free will is not true how does that change what decisions we make and how we go about our daily lives ? Practically and sensibly it makes more sense to accept that we have free will since not only does that grant us the ultimate freedom but also makes us ultimately culpable for our actions.”
I agree. We MUST behave as if we have free will because the alternative leads to inaction. And since our perception of free will is instinctive, it’s just extremely difficult to live any other way.
Interestingly, when people read articles challenging free will, then take a test, they are more likely to cheat than if they don’t read such articles. Since cheating is deleterious for societies, it would make sense for the perception of free will to evolve. (https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/destined-to-cheat-new-research-finds-free-will-can-keep-us-honest.html)
“Regarding salvation and belief in God, I know it’s more than just a simple choice. There are many factors involved and I am not smart enough to dissect how one person comes to faith and another doesn’t. While it’s not 100% choice, choice is definitely a part of it.”
Well, we can’t choose whether to believe in something, but we can put ourselves in situations that increase or decrease the likelihood of belief occurring subconsciously. For example, studying evidence contrary to one’s belief can cause disbelief to occur on its own.
“Why do you assume everyone should “automatically” understand the scriptures ?”
Because the Bible says God wants EVERYONE to be saved. If that is true, then it behooves God to ensure the Bible is written with clear and unambiguous instructions that cannot be interpreted incorrectly, right? Furthermore, the Bible should contain unambiguous evidence to convince people to believe it’s all true–like precise predictions of future events (including exact dates and other circumstances only perfect forethought would know, like natural disasters humans could not make happen themselves), or advanced knowledge unknown at the time of writing (like the structure of the solar system, how basic sanitation works, etc.). That way people would know God exists and exactly what needs to be done for salvation, and then they could choose whether or not to follow him. Instead, there is so much ambiguity that there are 45,000 Christian denominations that disagree with other denominations, even on such basic elements as what is required for salvation. That’s the part that makes no sense to me.
“When it comes to the bible, the biggies are context and language.”
That shouldn’t be a problem for an all-knowing, all-powerful God, should it? He could ensure that ever translation of the Bible is 100% accurate and clear. Or he could simply make our minds capable of automatically understanding the original language of the Bible, regardless of their current language. THAT would be a miracle that would surely convince many of the truth of Christianity.
“If we focus on the simple and most important truth of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, everything else will fall into place.”
But that simply doesn’t happen. Listen to an argument between a Catholic, a Lutheran, an Evangelical and a Calvinist to see that reading the same exact passages leads to radically different interpretations. That should not happen, according to Jesus:
• John 17:20-23 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE–I in them and you in me–SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
“I would be leery of any “ism” because someone or some group went out of their way to invent a new concept to “explain” bible verses. These “isms” are usually wrong and filled with error as is Calvinism IMO.”
But EVERY denomination is an “ism” of some sort or other: Catholicism, Protestantism, Lutheranism…
“It’s amazing we have anything at all really when we realize how ancient these writings are. They have certainly survived the test of time as here we are in the 21st century still talking about them.”
Well, I don’t think it should be amazing if God is all powerful. He could easily MAKE ancient writings survive. But regardless, what is one to make of OTHER ancient scriptures, like the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Vedas, Sutras, etc?
“Merry Christmas and best regards,”
And to you too!
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December 21, 2018 at 7:18 pm
I am not convinced. Are you?
THE PREMISE:
Well, we can’t choose whether to believe in something, but we can put ourselves in situations that increase or decrease the likelihood of belief occurring subconsciously.
THE CONCLUSION:
For example, studying evidence contrary to one’s belief can cause disbelief to occur on its own.
This doesn’t make sense because the conclusion is false. Disbelief does not occur on its own because the statement before tells you why disbelief occurs and that is “…. studying evidence contrary to one’s belief….” is why disbelief occurs…..”
All the attributes given to a God(s) are mankind’s attributes good or evil.
First of all I will concede (and why not) “Life Forces” exists. This may be called “God”, in which case God exists. This is obvious to every thinking human life form. Nigglers may niggle over trifles is a given so discount exceptions. The most we can say about “Life Forces” and “God”: Life Forces ARE; God IS.
Everything we say beyond the propositions singular or plural “is” and “are” is a mankind’s notion or idea and we cannot say that about” Life Force” or “God” based on anything we do not and cannot know because we do not know but we speculate, belief, imagine.
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December 22, 2018 at 6:46 am
Derek, thanks for your response. I can’t respond to all your points for sake of time but I will make one comment.
It seems you have certain expectations for what God should or should not do especially when it comes to the transmission of the written text. I don’t think your perspective on how the bible should be written and our understanding of it is correct. The transmission and accuracy of the bible is not perfect but more than enough for us to understand the basics and be saved. The misinterpretations and textual errors of the transmission process is man’s doing. Regardless of the criticisms we have more than enough to get by and your expectations are too high because your premise is wrong.
You blame God for man’s failings and inability to understand truth and to boot you pin man’s evils on God as well. You should be careful to sit in the seat of judgment against God as this is a no win situation. While you think you can pass judgment based on this scripture or that, you will end up with “egg on your face” when certain things unknown to you are ultimately revealed to you.
You obviously have issues with God’s moral character and while it’s understandable based on your arguments, I can’t help but make a connection to your line of thinking to the Jews line of thinking with regards to Jesus. The Jews didn’t like Jesus and accused Him of all sorts of evils, one of which was blasphemy because He claimed to be God. They treated Him like a common criminal and eventually killed Him because He did not meet their expectations as what the Messiah should be. A lot of that had to do with their misreading of the OT prophecies, sound familiar …. ? Were the Jews assessment of Jesus correct ? Was Jesus evil ? Was it wrong for Jesus to eat on the Sabbath ? Was it wrong for Jesus to cast demons into pigs and let them die ? Was it wrong for Jesus to flip over tables in the Temple ? Is it wrong to claim you are the Son of God it you actually are ?
This is not a matter of scientific deduction and joining the dots, it’s a matter of the heart. Anyone can take the bible and poke all sorts of holes at it and make all sorts of arguments and claims against God based on 21st century western standards. I don’t deny there were some harsh judgments doled out by God, but who am I to stand in the judgment seat against Him ? If I dare stand in judgment against Him then it says more about my spirit than it does about Him. You can’t compete against Him, you can’t argue against Him. Our arguments and reasoning will fail when we realize like Job who He is. Job thought he knew God but he really didn’t until the end when he finally could “see” who God really was. I know this does not satisfy your scientific musings, but as I said, this is a matter of the heart.
Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘”You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
Mat 13:15 For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’
Naz
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December 27, 2018 at 1:57 pm
“This doesn’t make sense because the conclusion is false. Disbelief does not occur on its own because the statement before tells you why disbelief occurs and that is “…. studying evidence contrary to one’s belief….” is why disbelief occurs…..””
I think it’s a semantics issue that’s confusing you. Let me clarify: We can put ourselves in situations that increase or decrease the likelihood of belief occurring subconsciously, and studying evidence contrary to one’s belief is one of those situations. We can’t MAKE the belief or disbelief occur (well, short of brainwashing), and there’s no guarantee that studying contrary evidence will cause a loss of belief, but we can set up the situations that may cause it to occur on its own. Similarly, love is not a choice; it happens subconsciously under the right circumstances as well. If you want someone to not love you, you can provide situations that should lessen that love (by behaving badly, for instance), but there’s no guarantee that love will lessen; the best you can do is “set the stage” for it to occur on its own (I suspect “on its own” is the semantics issue, since I’m using it as something that can be influenced but not controlled).
“All the attributes given to a God(s) are mankind’s attributes good or evil.”
Exactly. They’re the only attributes that matter to us, after all.
“First of all I will concede (and why not) “Life Forces” exists”
I wouldn’t go that far. If you study life from the molecular level on up, there’s no discernible “life force” involved. It’s all just chemistry (unless by “life forces” you mean chemistry). That’s one of the reasons most physical scientists think free will is likely only an illusion.
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December 27, 2018 at 2:57 pm
“It seems you have certain expectations for what God should or should not do especially when it comes to the transmission of the written text.”
That’s true…but I am assuming God is logical. IF he is all powerful and all knowing, and IF he wants everyone to be saved, and IF the Bible is humanity’s instruction manual for salvation, THEN logically it would not be confusing enough to cause diametrically opposed interpretation, ambiguity or contradiction with reality.
“The transmission and accuracy of the bible is not perfect but more than enough for us to understand the basics and be saved.”
How so? I mean, Protestants believe that salvation comes from faith alone:
• Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.
• Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
• Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
• Romans 3: 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
• Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
• Romans 10:9-13 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved.”
Whereas Catholics say salvation requires both faith and works:
• James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
• 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
• Matthew 25:41-46 Then He will also say to those on His left, “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” Then they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
And that you can lose your salvation:
• 1 Corinthians 9: 27 But I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
• 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?
• John 15:5-6 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
And even within such major divisions there are further subdivisions, such as Lutherans teaching that anyone can choose to accept salvation, while Calvinists teach that only God chooses whom to save. The scholars of all those Christian sects study the Bible in depth, yet arrive at drastically different conclusions. If even believers WITHIN Christianity can’t agree on basics like how salvation works, how is that going to help those who aren’t Christians but who would become Christian if only the message were consistent and clear?
“The misinterpretations and textual errors of the transmission process is man’s doing.”
Oh definitely…but God could easily fix that or prevent it from happening in the first place. What’s more, wouldn’t he WANT to ensure his instruction manual for salvation isn’t corrupted?
“You blame God for man’s failings and inability to understand truth and to boot you pin man’s evils on God as well. You should be careful to sit in the seat of judgment against God as this is a no win situation. While you think you can pass judgment based on this scripture or that, you will end up with “egg on your face” when certain things unknown to you are ultimately revealed to you.”
How is it wrong to ask questions about apparent inconsistencies and contradictions? If one doesn’t know something, the first response should be to ask. If there are good answers for these questions, I’m happy to listen to them. Accepting apparent problems without question is a good way to get into trouble. I don’t mean to resort to Godwin’s Law, but those WWII Germans who thought Hitler was doing good ended up enabling evil because they didn’t ask questions. I can’t think of anything more tragic than to enable evil while thinking one is doing good. Asking questions and expecting accurate answers should never cause anyone to end up with egg on their faces. We have to exercise good judgment somehow.
“You obviously have issues with God’s moral character and while it’s understandable based on your arguments, I can’t help but make a connection to your line of thinking to the Jews line of thinking with regards to Jesus. The Jews didn’t like Jesus and accused Him of all sorts of evils, one of which was blasphemy because He claimed to be God.”
Well, Jesus didn’t actually claim to be God, exactly, but I get your point. But didn’t the Jews accuse Jesus of evils without sufficient evidence? I don’t think I’m making any claims that cannot be inferred from the biblical evidence outright. For example:
• 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, how can one justify ordering people to hack innocent babies to death? Granted, one can say it’s okay because God created everyone and he can do what he wants, or one can say everyone is born into sin and thus babies are evil…but that kind of justification rings hollow and doesn’t fit with “good,” “all knowing” or “all powerful,” does it? As a limited human, perhaps I’m missing some subtlety here, but that kind of behavior is what we humans call evil.
“Is it wrong to claim you are the Son of God it you actually are ?”
No, but you can’t expect anyone to believe you. I met a man who stood on a street corner and claimed to be Jesus. I didn’t believe him. Had he provided enough evidence, however, I would have changed my tune. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
“This is not a matter of scientific deduction and joining the dots, it’s a matter of the heart. Anyone can take the bible and poke all sorts of holes at it and make all sorts of arguments and claims against God based on 21st century western standards.”
But my point is there shouldn’t be any holes. Like claims in some parts of the Bible that no one has seen God, while other parts claim people saw God face-to-face. If there is actually no contradiction there, then there are ways to express that in ANY language. Such holes would be considered poor writing by humans, and it rises to the level of unfathomable when it comes from an all-knowing, all-powerful God. That doesn’t bother you?
“I don’t deny there were some harsh judgments doled out by God, but who am I to stand in the judgment seat against Him ?”
Well, going back to 1 Samuel 15:3, if someone were to rip your baby from your arms and hacking her to death, but claim that it’s okay because God told him to do it, wouldn’t you be entitled to be a little judgmental? All you need is empathy to be able to judge certain behaviors as wrong. I know I would have a problem with God ordering such a thing. Perhaps he had a good reason for ordering your child killed…but unless and until you’re made fully aware of that reason, what kind of a person would you be if you didn’t get upset?
“You can’t compete against Him, you can’t argue against Him. Our arguments and reasoning will fail when we realize like Job who He is. Job thought he knew God but he really didn’t until the end when he finally could “see” who God really was. I know this does not satisfy your scientific musings, but as I said, this is a matter of the heart.”
I do have a scientific mind, true, but this IS a matter of the heart. It’s not about competing, nor about winning, it’s about treating people with love and compassion, especially the most innocent among us. What is that if not a matter of the heart?
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December 28, 2018 at 11:50 am
DM “………..but I am assuming God is logical. IF he is all powerful and all knowing, and IF he wants everyone to be saved, and IF the Bible is humanity’s instruction manual for salvation, THEN logically it would not be confusing enough to cause diametrically opposed interpretation, ambiguity or contradiction with reality.”
Is this your actual position? Because if it is not then using it to make any argument of logic or otherwise is disingenuous distraction. Thus, this style of debate may as well be deleted as meaningless.
Your arguments should be based on your position; not based on, “…..if this then that….” but this doesn’ t really seem to be your position at all. So for clarity maybe you would like to make a submission relative to your position or maybe you don’t have a position and use the ping pong tactic as a pretense without a position.
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December 28, 2018 at 12:29 pm
> “SOME-THING, always was; something always ‘IS’
> “NO-THING” ever was and nothing never ‘IS’:
> Absence of light=darkness; of good=evil; of god=devil.
>
> “THE MIND IS A BEAUTIFUL THING, TO WASTE”
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December 28, 2018 at 1:41 pm
DM, I see where we disagree, I will try to explain my position by answering your comments ….
“That’s true…but I am assuming God is logical. IF he is all powerful and all knowing, and IF he wants everyone to be saved, and IF the Bible is humanity’s instruction manual for salvation, THEN logically it would not be confusing enough to cause diametrically opposed interpretation, ambiguity or contradiction with reality. ”
I have to agree with Leo that the “if then” argument is not a good one. You seem to look at salvation as a scientific equation that is solved by an instruction manual, that’s not the way to look at it ,as I said it’s a matter of the heart. Also, how is God CAUSING the opposed interpretations ? Again you are quick to lay blame to God for man’s inability to understand truth. Logic alone is not enough, didn’t you learn anything from Mr. Spock ? Even Mr. Spock, the most logical Vulcan I know :), learned that logic is not enough and that we humans have the ability to transcend logic.
“How so? I mean, Protestants believe that salvation comes from faith alone: …
Whereas Catholics say salvation requires both faith and works: …. ”
The scriptures you cited are not at all contradictory if read in the proper context. You are grossly misinterpreting them. Salvation is by FAITH alone and the works spoken by James is not a life long track record of good works but he’s talking about the moment you “open the door” and receive Christ at salvation. Just like Rahab and Abraham did one time acts of faith that “proved” their faith. It’s more than a mental gymnastic, the devils believe and tremble.
Your salvation cannot be lost, the word “abide” is a fancy word for “live”. If Christ lives in you, you will not be thrown in the fire.
Being “disqualified” in this context has nothing to do with salvation. If Paul acts like a jerk who’s going to take what he says seriously ? He would be disqualified as a preacher but not lose his salvation.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
It doesn’t matter if your a Protestant, Catholic or any flavor in between, the only test is if “Christ is in you”. Everyone’s got some theological problems, some more than others in the case of Catholics, and those theological errors may make it difficult to receive and understand the truth unto salvation. But with that said, I would be ignorant to say that all Catholics are not saved because God knows those that are His.
“If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, how can one justify ordering people to hack innocent babies to death? Granted, one can say it’s okay because God created everyone and he can do what he wants, or one can say everyone is born into sin and thus babies are evil…but that kind of justification rings hollow and doesn’t fit with “good,” “all knowing” or “all powerful,” does it? As a limited human, perhaps I’m missing some subtlety here, but that kind of behavior is what we humans call evil. ”
Was it just to destroy the armies of Hitler and bomb Germany during WWII ? Is it ever justifiable to kill for the greater good ? Do you know why God ordered the killing of the Amalekites ? They were a great threat to Israel and those babies would one day be warriors and a threat to Israel. The question is then is why is Israel so important ? The answer : Jesus Christ would come through the bloodline of Israel and therefore Israel needed to survive and endure even to the point of miraculous intervention by God Himself. The salvation of mankind was at stake and God’s plan had to be done. I know you are going to rebut this and say why couldn’t God bring the Messiah through some other tribe and spare the children ? Don’t you see, the power of sin in the world has been warring against God’s plan for ages. There would always be some opposition against those God chose to bring the Messiah into the world. If not the Amalekites it would have been someone else. Just like Hitler has to be abolished, Israel’s enemies had to be dealt with.
As for the innocent children, I believe the compassion of God will extend to them in the hereafter. That’s my opinion based on everything I have learned about God and His great love for humanity. Jesus always gave special attention to the little ones and let them sit on his knee.
“No, but you can’t expect anyone to believe you. I met a man who stood on a street corner and claimed to be Jesus. I didn’t believe him. Had he provided enough evidence, however, I would have changed my tune. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
Jesus provided more than enough evidence. He performed countless miracles that cannot be explained by the naysayers. There is a good book by Lee Strobel called “The Case for Christ”. I highly recommend it if you’re interested. Strobel was an Atheist until he examined the evidence for Christ and was converted. We have eye-witness accounts from people that saw Jesus after His resurrection. These same people went to their death proclaiming this truth. Surely ordinary people would not die for a lie. That is just one of many points to consider in examining the miracles of Christ. But like I said, it’s a matter of the heart after all is said and done.
“I do have a scientific mind, true, but this IS a matter of the heart. It’s not about competing, nor about winning, it’s about treating people with love and compassion, especially the most innocent among us. What is that if not a matter of the heart?”
Of course, I’m not trying to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument. Each of us are unique and bring special qualities to the table, even Leo 🙂 ( sorry I couldn’t resist). Treating people with love and compassion is a God thing, it’s not a human invention. Despite the judgments executed over the centuries, mercy triumphs over judgment in the end in the face of Jesus Christ.
John 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
John 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
John 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”
Naz
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December 28, 2018 at 2:48 pm
Naz:
How do you put a smiley face in the text body. I thought it was simply a colon and a rightsided bracket 🙂 but that doesn’t work or a colon space bracket
: ).
And the strangest thin about that is that I can explain all the miracles you talk about, easy as apple pie they are all so simple even the pillar of light by night nd a pillar of cloud by day to lead the exodus. So simple. If you are having trouble about any miracle let me know and I’ll explain it according to the spirit.
🙂
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December 28, 2018 at 2:49 pm
OMGoodness; it’s like; it’s like a miracle. WTFantasy is that all about?
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December 28, 2018 at 2:51 pm
🙂 🙂 😉 😦 (: Oh what fun this is…….
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December 28, 2018 at 11:13 pm
Listen to this:
Priests and Pastors, Preachers and Popes and Prophet prayers have failed and do you even wonder amidst the obvious failings why the same rhetoric continues year after year, decade after decade as century after century creeps by and allowed to do so for thousands of years? Isn’t something wrong here?
I think the human race does not wonder why; I think humanity has been erroneously lulled into complacency by the monotone droning of acoustic echoes in the rafters from the utterance of words, meaningless phrases and prayers for a better future from messages as hollow as the sounds of chants reverberating off high, cave-like ceiling contours designed for monotone sleep.
I mean come on! After two thousand years of following the Christ who came to free the bond, open eyes, unlock shackles, complacency and useless prayers continue to prevail and we seem wondrously content to think the way to deal with this is to engage in polite debate and to make all our little points and counter points and show everybody what clever dicks we are and that’s great fun for many. And the good news is you don’t even have to worry about someone like me damaging your cause because you haven’t got a cause. What you’ve got is a hobby.
Remember when Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Oh sure we can metaphor the riches difficult to part with, give to the poor and yada, yada, yada. But did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, you are all in the same boat; not swimming in riches of pearls and silver, gold and money but in the simpler cares of complacent pleasures satisfying personal desires?
I mean we have to wonder why the world is filled, still, with war and the ravages that render young vibrant children into skeletal wrecks of skin and bones as the meat of muscle dissipate leaving nothing but the last breath of life.
Well let me tell you what I really believe about this upheaval.
Once upon a time a baby was born on this earth, lucky enough to escape the ravages of war and evil and ego and was born as a human being as any child born anywhere in the world. It could have been you; it could have been me; it could have been any baby child. The child grew and survived long enough to become an adult, inherited the whole potential range of emotions, urges, fears, anxieties, appetites, physical and emotional needs, instinctual drives and reactions common to all. Just like you and me.
The characters he encountered throughout his life ranged from tyrants, murderers, bullies, thieves, jealous schemers, liars and assassins to noble kings, tender lovers, doting parents, roistering drunks, swaggering soldiers, philosophers, gravediggers and country bumpkins. Just like you and me.
How could this person have such an encyclopedic knowledge of mankind? The answer of course is by looking inside himself. In his own head and heart he found every possible trait of character and twist of emotion. His dialogue rings true because Jesus knew that he himself was Everyman. He had only to consult his own soul to imagine how any character would react in a given situation because he—-as a human being—- was also a microcosm of the whole human race.
Let me not bore you with the rest of this persons life which most of you can recite by heart but there is a fundamental message which I believe you have all missed about his message and you should give pause to think about it.
This person said there would come a time and times when someone like himself saw the ill treatment, the injustice, the tyranny, oppression, hunger, skin and bones children, disheveled, downtrodden, disabled, distraught and defeated and in that day the Son of Man will be welcomed by the so afflicted.
Because the message of that famous person is this: All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
We are all a microcosm of the whole human race and we are all capable of becoming and be-ing the “Son of Man” ‘in his day’. Don’t please think that, that mighty person was talking about himself; he was not! He was talking about somebody like himself, he was thinking about you and me and everybody who heard his message and everybody who according to s/he’s ability would understand that we all have a similar role to play if we let it out but that role is not complacency, that role is “as we are led by the spirit to so perform”. It is not an easy message to accept because the message will prompt you to task and that task will not be complacency. Good luck-Good spirit be with you!
You might have thought that you were off the hook and could simply wait for someone else to “come” again; You all heard it, the “Second Coming”, if that’s how you think, you are mistaken. If you think that way then understand this: the camel is going through the eye of the needle and you have not entered the Kingdom within you; and that Kingdom is waiting still, for you to hear and heed this message and perform according to your talents.
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December 31, 2018 at 2:25 pm
“Your arguments should be based on your position; not based on, “…..if this then that….” but this doesn’ t really seem to be your position at all.”
The reason I had to include all those “ifs” is because those claims cannot be substantiated but they are the assumptions of many Christians…but not all. For instance, if I hadn’t said “IF he is all powerful and all knowing, and IF he wants everyone to be saved, and IF the Bible is humanity’s instruction manual for salvation,” someone would likely have challenged that assumption (see my exchange with The Takeaway to see how we wasted time because I made some assumptions about his beliefs).
But assuming one believes all those “ifs,” then logically the Bible would not be confusing enough to cause diametrically opposed interpretation, ambiguity or contradiction with reality. Am I really saying anything unreasonable here?
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December 31, 2018 at 3:55 pm
“I have to agree with Leo that the “if then” argument is not a good one. You seem to look at salvation as a scientific equation that is solved by an instruction manual, that’s not the way to look at it ,as I said it’s a matter of the heart.”
Well, as I explained to Leo, I don’t want to make assumptions that may not be true. If you don’t know the premises for my conclusion, then you might disagree with the conclusion without understanding how I got there.
“Also, how is God CAUSING the opposed interpretations ? Again you are quick to lay blame to God for man’s inability to understand truth. Logic alone is not enough, didn’t you learn anything from Mr. Spock ? Even Mr. Spock, the most logical Vulcan I know :), learned that logic is not enough and that we humans have the ability to transcend logic.”
Good reference. 🙂 But there are a couple of points: First, again, IF God intends the Bible to be his manual for salvation, and IF he is all knowing and all powerful, why would he not prevent people from distorting his message? Logically that makes no sense…but neither does it make sense “from the heart” or any other non-malicious intent.
Second, how could God NOT be the direct cause of the opposing interpretations? If he works out everything, directing our very steps, and it is not ours but his purpose that prevails, as the Bible says, then by definition he HAS to be causing the opposing interpretations…since nobody else determines “everything.”
“The scriptures you cited are not at all contradictory if read in the proper context. You are grossly misinterpreting them.”
If I’m grossly misinterpreting scripture, then there are BILLIONS of Christians who are ALSO grossly misinterpreting scripture. And that’s because NOBODY KNOWS what the proper context is. There are over 44,000 different interpretations of scripture, and they ALL believe they are reading the Bible in context, even though that is impossible. There is no key to understanding how a particular passage should be interpreted because God never included such a key. THIS is where I have problems with the Bible.
“Your salvation cannot be lost, the word “abide” is a fancy word for “live”. If Christ lives in you, you will not be thrown in the fire.”
And yet there are thousands of biblical scholars throughout the centuries who disagree with you. That’s the problem. How can God possibly be good with one message that fractures into tens of thousands of different interpretations? Unless God is evil, it makes no sense to me.
But your interpretation gives me pause…because it would imply that, say, Hitler could have asked for forgiveness on his deathbed and thus achieved heaven, whereas despite all the good Gandhi did in his life, if he never became a Christian he is burning in hell. What could be more unjust than that?
“It doesn’t matter if your a Protestant, Catholic or any flavor in between, the only test is if “Christ is in you”.”
I’m pretty sure most denominations would disagree with that claim. What’s the point of confession if “Christ is in you,” or what’s the point of being “born again” if “Christ is in you”? Most denominations have specific behaviors, rituals or thoughts that you must undergo in order to achieve salvation…which would mean all the other denominations that don’t all go to hell.
“Was it just to destroy the armies of Hitler and bomb Germany during WWII ? Is it ever justifiable to kill for the greater good ?”
Yes, but ONLY because that was the best option we had available. If we had the power to force everyone to lay down their arms and go home, but instead we deliberately allowed people to slaughter one another senselessly, what would that say about our character? If God is all powerful and all knowing, then ordering his people to slaughter babies is a horrific atrocity, wouldn’t you agree? He could have caused those infants to never have been born, or he could have directed the Israelites to care for those infants, or he could have taken over the minds of the Amalekites and caused them to behave properly, or he could have used his foreknowledge to arrange events so that the Amalekites never existed or never did anything wrong. SO MANY options exist that one would expect from someone who is good. But ordering people to hack babies to death? How can that be justified?
“As for the innocent children, I believe the compassion of God will extend to them in the hereafter. That’s my opinion based on everything I have learned about God and His great love for humanity. Jesus always gave special attention to the little ones and let them sit on his knee.”
But where does that come from? Each and every day, tens of thousands of children die in agony from disease and starvation. Even if every person on Earth immediately did everything he or she could to save those tens of thousands of children who will die tomorrow, it’s too late to save more than a tiny fraction of them because they are simply too far gone or live too far from proper medical help. The ONLY person who could possibly alleviate their suffering and save their lives in time is God. And yet he does absolutely nothing to help them. I’m assuming you believe dead babies automatically go to heaven…but where does the Bible support this claim? What it does say is that we are all born sinful…
• Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
• Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
• Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one”
• Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.”
• Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.
…and that the ONLY way to salvation is by being born again:
• John 3:3-18 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” … Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Since babies and young children are too young to understand the concept of God, much less believe in him or choose to follow him, if they die they will go to hell to be tortured for all eternity. I know some people evoke the “age of accountability” and insist dead babies get a free pass to heaven. But the age of accountability exists nowhere in the Bible. Worse, consider the implications of this free pass to heaven. Clearly, the Bible says few adults will be saved:
• Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”
• Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
• Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
• Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.”
So if only a small number of adults will be saved, but 100% of dead babies will be saved, then isn’t there theological justification for murdering as many babies as possible? Certainly, there is the commandment not to kill, but the Bible also says that God wants EVERY soul to be saved:
• 1 Timothy 2:3-4 God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 2 Peter 3:9 Instead [the Lord] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Thus, murdering babies would help achieve God’s goal of saving as many souls as possible. Even though he might condemn the murders, it really wouldn’t matter because all you would have to do is ask for forgiveness and be saved, since the ONLY unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:
• Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
• Mark 3:28-29 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.
Thus, God has set up a system whereby dead babies go to hell…or there is theological justification for murdering as many babies as you can. That sounds pretty horrific to me.
“Jesus provided more than enough evidence. He performed countless miracles that cannot be explained by the naysayers.”
But the problem is, ALL those miracles only occur in the Bible. There’s not a single independent, secular account of ANY miracle, even though Judea during that time period was one of the best documented by historians and there were many events (the parade into Jerusalem, the trial attended by major figures of ancient Judea, earthquakes, the sun disappearing for hours, Jewish saints rising up and wandering around Jerusalem, etc.) that would surely have been amply recorded. Yet there is nothing, not a single eyewitness account (beyond the gospels and epistles, of course…but they’re not independent sources).
So if the point is to convince people of the truth of Christianity, the Bible is insufficient. Most people in the world–even those who want to believe the truth–don’t believe the Bible is true simply because none of the supernatural claims can be verified.
“There is a good book by Lee Strobel called “The Case for Christ”. I highly recommend it if you’re interested. Strobel was an Atheist until he examined the evidence for Christ and was converted. We have eye-witness accounts from people that saw Jesus after His resurrection.”
I have read it. The problem is those eyewitness accounts exist ONLY in the gospels. And since the gospels were written by anonymous sources, with the church throwing out gospels they decided were wrong, independent verification becomes absolutely critical to justify belief. The ONLY independent accounts that exist within a hundred years of Jesus’ death are a few short passages written by Josephus and Tacitus, and they weren’t even born until AFTER Jesus died…so they weren’t eyewitnesses.
“I’m not trying to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument.”
Me either. But this discussion is bringing up all sorts of questions I’ve had for years, none of which have had satisfactory answers–at least not to me. I hope you see that my reasoning is sound, even if you don’t agree with my conclusions.
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December 31, 2018 at 6:07 pm
dereckmathias:
“Take care that you be not deceived by your own self.”
Shakespeare answered that general caution when he proclaimed: “To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou cannot then be false to any man.” (shakespeare’s character polonius – This kernel of wisdom is now taken as Shakespeare’s own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.)..
I point this out to let you know that anytime anyone starts their sentence with “…..If God is all powerful and all knowing, then…………”; or, generically “….If this,(anything) then …..(anything)”. Anything that follows the speculative word “If” must necessarily be a presumptive speculation. You will never “by chance” say anything that you know. Otherwise your sentence will not begin with “If”.
The other, and I have to use an adjective here, the other “ludicrous” question you ask is “….what’s the point of being “born again” if “Christ is in you”? The answer is very simple, to be born again is to have Christ in you, so if you do not have christ in you then you need to be born again;on the other hand, if Christ is on you, you are already born again because when Christ is you, you have the attitude of Christ and that attitude is an understanding that the spiritual aspect of humanity and not the mere ritualism of religious insanity is the level a born again person is operates on; you can’t be born again if Christ is in you because Christ, in you and being born again is a distinction without a difference. They are expressing the the same thing. If you have one, you have the other, they are not two different aspects of an alien entity.
And finally this thing about being an atheist and then finding Christ and being converted? That, as they say down on the farm, is caca del toro. I have been with Christ since I was twelve years of age and I am as much an atheist as Jesus. So being with Christ has nothing to do with atheism and being converted thereby is quite a stupid statement actually and shows just how wrong Christians are and let me add easily, wrong by the billions! For all intents and purposes Jesus himself was an atheist. I mean Jesus the atheist, hated religion and all things clergy: hypocrisy, pretense, devouring widow’s property, lengthy show of prayers, rituals, greetings, high seats, the supernatural, white washing tombs, decorating graves.
Tell me what part of Religion, Church, Clergy, Rituals, did Jesus love, or was a member of? NONE! Jesus was an atheist because he never followed the Gods of religion and never accepted the invented supernatural gods of men and because of that, the religious wingnuts of his day called him a blasphemer with a demon; a glutton, a drunk, a sinner and sought for three years to imprison him, throw him over cliffs, stone him, whip him, beat him, mock him and crucify him, which is no different than religion does today to atheists and gays. today in certain countries as backward today as they were in Jesus’s day.
But I digress derekmathias.
Happy New Year and may this year be a Happening Year for you to be “born again” into the reality of Jesus’s revolutionary force of bringing Heaven to Earth (as it is in heaven)…Remember the prayer. Thy will be done on earth…….. as it is in heaven. And where is this reality? “Within you”!
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January 1, 2019 at 12:18 pm
Derek, I don’t agree with your reasoning or your conclusions but I am not well versed enough to provide you satisfactory answers.
Leo’s last post about Christ being in you and being born again meaning the same thing is correct, although I would not subscribe to his ridiculous theological musings in general…..
As for the Hitler comment, yes Hitler would be forgiven in the scenario you pointed out and while this offends your sense of justice, this is the same reaction the Jews had when Jesus forgave the prostitute. Most people cannot handle the amazing grace of God. We scratch the surface to even barely understand it but it’s not called amazing grace for nothing. Good works cannot save you only Jesus can, so when Gandhi or anyone else rejects the only means of forgiveness, then that becomes and is the unforgivable sin.
I think the next post about “God permitting evil” would be good for you because I think that is where your main struggle is I think.
I hope you find the answers you need, I wish I could be more help.
Happy new year my friend.
Naz
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January 1, 2019 at 6:09 pm
Naz:
You have no understanding of Derek or his arguments. Derek is not looking for answers, he already has the answers; you have to secret into his mindset to counter his thoughts because Derek’s thoughts are more legitimate than your own because they are his own and not from a brainwashed indoctrinated believer who has no self-thought because believers are not self-taught.
“…..As for the Hitler comment………this is the same reaction the Jews had when Jesus forgave the prostitute.”
Naz, that is so much caca del toro.The reaction of murdering 6 millions Jews is impossible to consider as moral equivalency to a prostitute offering her love to those who need it and therefore the reaction cannot possibly have moral equivalency either. What’s wrong with your brain?
Oh by the way, welcome back to the fold of “ridiculous theological musings”. I don’t k ow where you’ve been; are you just out for rehabilitation effect?
Be aware however that here, at least, you have the opportunity to learn ridiculous theological musings that your mentors can never possibly allow your brain to entertain. On this site Jason allows exceptional ideas that allows you to be confronted by brains who have escaped the choir of indoctrinated ideas of which you are still in thrall. And that is to his credit.
You should no follow your presumptive religious brainwashing. If Christianity is allowed to convert the heathens, I think it only fair that the heathens are given a chance to fight in their corner.
This need not be a bad thing for Christians. I believe faith is stronger for being challenged. If believers don’t hear contradictory views, they have little reason to truly consider what they hold dear. This mature faith is all the better for this challenge. Does your belief’s worth come from “bums on seats” adherents who agree with you or from the challenges of “ridiculous theological musings” that allows you neurons to fire accordingly?
Instead of “subtly campaigning against outside ideas, If that leads some reach opinions which differ to your own, why worry?
Christianity has almost everything going its way – culture and art for the last two millennia have been subject to its influence. It is in the home, it permeates society, and it recruits young. You can try to keep the flock faithful by silencing critics – or, failing that, petitioning the faithful to boycott their words. Alternatively, you can hone your own arguments, rally your side, and spread the good word: and let your rivals do the same.
I hope to persuade you with reason and logic in the same way that Jesus used reason and logic in his campaign, to revolutionize the religious pseudo values you still cling to as though it was the only parachute in town preventing you from touching ground.
Keep your head on your own shoulders and don’t just give it away for the repetitious nonsense of magic, myth, miracles, madness, mayhem and supernatural convenience; things that Jesus never believed in, never supported and never used to entrap the gullible like yourself and myself as we truly seek the truth looking for a champion who would not take them for a ride down the path of proselyte robots of protocol without discretionary insight to fill pews and the tithing baskets circulating e very seance you attend.
Welcome back to the common sense of humanity.
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January 3, 2019 at 5:46 pm
“I point this out to let you know that anytime anyone starts their sentence with “…..If God is all powerful and all knowing, then…………” or, generically “….If this,(anything) then …..(anything)”. Anything that follows the speculative word “If” must necessarily be a presumptive speculation. You will never “by chance” say anything that you know. Otherwise your sentence will not begin with “If”.”
Well, what do you expect? I can’t claim to know the mind of God. Nobody can:
• 1 Corinthians 2:11 No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
This is especially true in the light of some apparent contradictions between God’s stated desires and his behavior. Would you prefer I said, “Since the Bible says God is all powerful,” etc.? It would amount to the same point just with more verbiage.
“The other, and I have to use an adjective here, the other “ludicrous” question you ask is “….what’s the point of being “born again” if “Christ is in you”? The answer is very simple, to be born again is to have Christ in you, so if you do not have christ in you then you need to be born again;on the other hand, if Christ is on you, you are already born again because when Christ is you”
Well, you’ll have to take that up with the Catholics. They believe Christ is in them, but that one can lose one’s salvation by dying with unconfessed sins. They think your version of Christianity is as absurd as you evidently consider their version of Christianity…which is my point.
“I mean Jesus the atheist, hated religion and all things clergy: hypocrisy, pretense, devouring widow’s property, lengthy show of prayers, rituals, greetings, high seats, the supernatural, white washing tombs, decorating graves.”
Yeah, the Romans considered Christians to be atheists because they didn’t believe in the “true” gods. But atheism just means a lack of belief in gods…that’s it, nothing else. Clearly Jesus believed in God, so by definition he could not have been an atheist. I hear some people claim to be “Christian but not religious,” yet they believe God created the universe. Well, that is religion…again, by definition: “Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.”
“Happy New Year and may this year be a Happening Year for you to be “born again” into the reality of Jesus’s revolutionary force of bringing Heaven to Earth (as it is in heaven)”
I’m certainly open to the notion…but I have a lot of unanswered questions that must be answered before I can justify belief. It doesn’t help when Christians try to shame, distract, insult or ignore my questions, which I think are legitimate. I’m just surprised that every Christian doesn’t ask the same questions. To quote James 2:14-26, “Faith without works is dead.” And what are properly answered questions but works?
Oh, and happy new year to you too.
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January 3, 2019 at 8:53 pm
Thank you for your New Year well wishes.
“….Well, what do you expect? I can’t claim to know the mind of God. Nobody can:”
Here is the answer to your question:
What you know is more important than what you speculate or believe. And what you do not know yet acknowledge, is more important than what you speculate or believe. Unless you can claim it, don’t name it.
And here’s what you need to know, according to Jesus of the bible.
Jesus was having a conversation with Nicodemus. Nicodemus came to meet with Jesus under cover of darkness to hear from the man whose common sense ideas were being noised throughout the land as miraculous.
(Knock knock)
“Come in.” said Jesus.
“Up so late?” replied Nicodemus?
“Oh yes”, I imagine, said the Lord Jesus. “Waiting for you”
“What do you mean waiting for me? This is the middle of the night; how did you know I was coming? You’re a stranger to me.”
“Oh yes. I may be a stranger to you Nicodemus but you’re no stranger to me, come in, sit down”.
Remember the story? You’ll find it in 3rd chapter of John’s gospel. There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus. THE ruler of the Jews. That means he was the senior theologian in the city; member of the Sanhedrin. A man whose name made news; he was reputed to be the third richest man in town. And because you see he wasn’t satisfied with the conclusions to which his own theological colleagues had come who believed that Jesus Christ was a fanatical street preacher, an illegitimate child of a lying, faithless, ignorant Galilean peasant girl, Nicodemus, one of the best of the bunch, an honorable man with a sincere love for God wasn’t prepared to swallow that. But he was a little self conscious. He didn’t like to be seen in broad daylight doing the smartest thing he could, visiting the Lord Jesus to talk to him personally so he came in the middle of the night.
And I imagine that finally when he came, in surprise. He said,
“Master, you’re exceptional; you’re quite extraordinary and I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s no possible explanation for your life but God. Master, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; no man could do these miracles thou doest except God be with him. There’s only one possible explanation for the quality of the life you live, the things you do and the things that you say and the man that you are: God.
And I imagine that in so many words said the Lord Jesus,
“Nicodemus, you’re absolutely right. I am exceptional; as a matter of fact, I am the exception. And you’re absolutely right Nicodemus, there’s only one possible explanation for my life, the things I do and what I say and the quality of life I live, God. Don’t misunderstand me Nicodemus; not because I am God, though God I am, Nicodemus.”
Jesus then introduced the concept of the spirit and began to explain to Nicodemus the difference between the physical and the spiritual. This is where Jesus introduced the concept of being born again as a metaphor for accepting the concept of the spirit as an essential aspect of the human experience humanity.
The only aspect of humanity in those days was physical: born as a baby, one can see, touch, hear, smell and taste but Jesus tried describing the spirit within that was real and distinct and he tried to explain the spirit to Nicodemus using the wind that you can’t see, that you know not from where it comes and know not where it goes; it is invisible.
“How can these things be possible” asked Nicodemus?
Everyone who makes a practice of speaking evil, of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates Spirit-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure. But anyone speaking, working and living in truth and reality welcomes Spirit-light so the work can be seen by others as a manifestation of the Good within, for the Good-work it is. You see Nicodemus, it’s the divine logic.
Jesus said, “You’re a respected teacher of Israel and you don’t know these basics? Listen carefully. I’m speaking Spirit truth to you. That is, I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions. If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don’t believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can’t see, the things of God? John 3:10-12
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January 4, 2019 at 2:53 pm
“As for the Hitler comment, yes Hitler would be forgiven in the scenario you pointed out and while this offends your sense of justice, this is the same reaction the Jews had when Jesus forgave the prostitute. Most people cannot handle the amazing grace of God. We scratch the surface to even barely understand it but it’s not called amazing grace for nothing. Good works cannot save you only Jesus can, so when Gandhi or anyone else rejects the only means of forgiveness, then that becomes and is the unforgivable sin.”
I guess I’m just one of those who “cannot handle the amazing grace of God.” I think slavery is one of the worst evils anyone can commit…but God condones it, even saying a slave owner shouldn’t be punished if he beats his slave so badly that she can’t even crawl to her feet for several days:
• Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
I think rape is another horrible sin…but God condones that as well:
• 2 Samuel 12:11 This is what the LORD says: “Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.”
Child abuse is even worse, and forcing children into sexual slavery is beyond evil…but again, God condones it (along with murdering children):
• Numbers 31:17-18 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
And God condoning the murder of children happens again and again:
• Isaiah 13:16-18 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated. See, I will stir up against them the Medes … Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants, nor will they look with compassion on children.
• 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'”
Apparently God also punishes people simply for not believing in him:
• Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
And threatening to force people to eat their own children??
• Jeremiah 19:9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters.
• Deuteronomy 28:53 You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.
And finally lying to us:
• 1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet.
There’s a lot more, and I know some people quibble with exactly what all these passages mean, but there are just too many of these violations of morality for me to ignore. I just don’t see how a moral person can condone such behavior (especially considering God is all powerful and all knowing, and thus by definition would never have to resort to any of this to achieve good results).
So no, I guess I can’t handle the amazing grace of God. Or, rather, I can’t see how there’s anything good about it.
“I hope you find the answers you need, I wish I could be more help.”
Well, thank you for trying.
“Happy new year my friend.”
And to you too.
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January 5, 2019 at 3:13 pm
Derek, I will try to give you an explanation for the scriptures you noted. First of all I will agree with you that all of these things you pointed out are horrific and vicious. I am not going to sugar coat these scriptures or try to twist their meaning.
“So no, I guess I can’t handle the amazing grace of God. Or, rather, I can’t see how there’s anything good about it. ”
To your comment above, the passages you have selected do NOT exemplify or present the amazing grace of God that I speak of. What you are reading is good old fashioned judgment being doled out by God by people who are breaking the Law of Moses. There were instances in the old testament where we saw a peak into the mercy of God but for the most part it was judgment upon judgment for those that sinned and broke the law.
To understand judgment we must understand that God is perfect and sin demands death in front of a Holy and perfect God. Sin is a big deal to God and it was established in the old testament that sin deserves judgment and ultimately death. We can’t understand this time period because we are living thousands of years after the time when judgment under the Law was being executed.
The problem today is that when we read the old testament we are confusing and mixing up the judgment under the Law with the grace of God revealed through Jesus. Grace is not law and law is not grace. They are 2 completely opposite concepts. Grace has come to save us from the punishment of the Law, that’s the whole point. Jesus took the ultimate punishment of the law, death, on our behalf so that we could live free without the fear of punishment. What Jesus did was a game changer for how humanity relates to God and how God relates to humanity.
The new covenant of Grace is nothing like the old covenant of Law. Under grace we are justified by faith in Christ not by the works of the Law. Salvation is permanent and believes are sealed with God’s Spirit at the moment of salvation or conversion. This is why it’s called being born again, we are a new creation at the moment of salvation and it’s not just a forgiveness of all sins past, present and future, it’s God depositing in us a desire to be like Him. Sure, we will screw up and still make all kinds of mistakes but that cannot take away from the fact that we are children of God and born of Him. It’s permanent, it’s guaranteed and nothing can change or take it away. That’s why the gospel is “good news”.
I hope this helps.
Naz
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January 7, 2019 at 12:48 pm
“What you know is more important than what you speculate or believe. And what you do not know yet acknowledge, is more important than what you speculate or believe. Unless you can claim it, don’t name it.”
I’m sorry, but if I’m asking a necessarily conditional statement, it’s impossible not to use conditional terms! Does God want everyone to be saved? I don’t know, but IF he does (as the Bible says), then my conclusion can be valid. If not, then my conclusion is not valid.
“And here’s what you need to know, according to Jesus of the bible.”
Hmm, you appear to be quoting a version of the Bible I’ve never read before. However, IF you are quoting an accurate translation of John 3, THEN it is what the Bible says. (See what I did there? Lacking certainty in your translation, I had to make a conditional statement.)
But I don’t see which point you’re trying to make. There are several one could take from those passages.
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January 7, 2019 at 1:36 pm
“Derek, I will try to give you an explanation for the scriptures you noted. First of all I will agree with you that all of these things you pointed out are horrific and vicious. I am not going to sugar coat these scriptures or try to twist their meaning.”
I appreciate that. When I do get responses to these queries, I usually get twisted, sugar-coated interpretations.
“To understand judgment we must understand that God is perfect and sin demands death in front of a Holy and perfect God. Sin is a big deal to God and it was established in the old testament that sin deserves judgment and ultimately death. We can’t understand this time period because we are living thousands of years after the time when judgment under the Law was being executed.”
I think this is where my biggest problem lies. If God is perfect and demands death for sin…why did he bother creating us? Surely he KNEW exactly what would happen if he created Lucifer, and he KNEW exactly what would happen if he put Adam, Eve and Satan in the Garden with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…that’s what all-knowing means. So he KNEW that his plans would fall apart…and yet he did absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening. Instead, he unleashed death and destruction upon humanity, KNOWING they would breed with fallen angels and grow into a huge population. And then he drowned them all and started over with Noah. He COULD have started humanity with Noah and his family and avoided the whole drowning everyone thing…but he didn’t. Instead, he created humanity on a course that would guarantee that the vast majority of the world will suffer unimaginable torture for all eternity. Given all this foreknowledge, and given that God can’t handle sin, WHY would he deliberately create such a horrific destiny of misery and suffering? That’s what I can’t get my head around–not if God is good, at least. If he is evil, yes, that would be perfectly understandable…but what justification is there for a good God to inflict such cruelty?
As you know, I think the Bible pretty clearly states that free will doesn’t exist, and that God plans absolutely everything. But even if you reject that part of the Bible, one is still left with the consequences of God being all knowing and all powerful. That means that before he created this universe, he HAD to have in his mind ALL the infinite possible universes he could create–including countless variations on THIS universe, some of which had to include Lucifer not rebelling and Adam and Eve not disobeying (those universes MUST have been possible to exist if choice exists, and God HAD to be able to envision them if he is all knowing). And being all powerful, God COULD have created one of THOSE universes instead of THIS one where he knew everything would go wrong.
But he didn’t do that. He deliberately chose a universe to create that resulted in massive suffering. He could have chosen a different universe, or he could have not created Lucifer, or he could have given Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit so that they would know disobeying God and following the serpent is evil, or he could at least have made it impossible for humans to commit atrocities while still giving them the ability to choose far lesser sins. That’s just off the top of my head, but surely an all-knowing God could come up with more options–GOOD options, rather than choosing something that is supposedly against all his plans. THIS is what makes no sense to me.
“This is why it’s called being born again, we are a new creation at the moment of salvation and it’s not just a forgiveness of all sins past, present and future, it’s God depositing in us a desire to be like Him. Sure, we will screw up and still make all kinds of mistakes but that cannot take away from the fact that we are children of God and born of Him. It’s permanent, it’s guaranteed and nothing can change or take it away. That’s why the gospel is “good news”.”
But…what’s the point? God could have deposited in us a desire to be like him FROM THE START and saved SO MUCH waste and human carnage. He could have made that desire part of our DNA. And if sin is so abhorrent to him, why give us the capacity to sin? Because all he really wants is for us to decide to follow him, right? Does that require the capacity to commit atrocities? Could I not make the choice whether or not God is worthy of my worship without my having the capacity to commit murder, torture, rape, slavery, etc.? I’ve known people who would never even think of harming another person, and they have been just as capable as anyone of making decisions, believing and loving. They didn’t need serial killers who eat their child victims to exist in order to be capable of doing exactly what God purportedly wants of us.
The whole Jesus part seems an unnecessary distraction, fulfilling a role God himself could have done on his own before anything started falling apart. That’s one of the consequences of being all powerful, by definition.
It seems to me that Christianity is asking me to focus on the “good news” of Jesus providing us with salvation, while ignoring all God’s abilities that should render Jesus completely unnecessary, and ignoring all the behaviors committed or condoned by God that we wouldn’t tolerate in human society and that should never have been necessary in the first place: ordering babies hacked to death; permitting not just slavery, but allowing slaves to be beaten almost to death; threatening to force people to eat their own children; forcing girls into sexual slavery; forcing people to lie…the list goes on and none of it sounds like “good news” to me.
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January 7, 2019 at 1:51 pm
derekmathias:
What I like about you is that you have a mind open enough to acquiesce to reason but not so acquiescent to forego a legitimate request for more information to help the decision making process and I respect that very much and will try to keep up answers worthy of your very legitimate questions.
“Does God want everyone to be saved? I don’t know, but if he does (as the Bible says), then my conclusion can be valid. If not, then my conclusion is not valid.”
If I were an author writing about the virtues and attributes of a God I defined as the God of my understanding, I would say unequivocally that God does not want that any should perish.
Even in my own imperfect humanity I aspire to a simliar virtue and I offer exoneration for everyone willing to say “I made a mistake”, “I am sorry” which is exactly what I would expect others to offer me for similar mistakes; i.e., (sins).
The point is that one can only rely on the writings of any book, comment or post from history to the extent that one believes (accept, adopt, incorporate into life decisions) the writings one believes, accepts, adopts, incorporates that which is most closely relates to one’s own intellectual association with one’s own experiences. Beyond that we are all seekers and searchers for truth and you no less than for I.
Take care
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January 7, 2019 at 2:03 pm
derekmathias post 92:
I cannot counter anything you wrote in that post because there is nothing in that post that needs countering accept from religionists who would defend the the actions your comments of reason appeal to.
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January 11, 2019 at 12:11 pm
“What I like about you is that you have a mind open enough to acquiesce to reason but not so acquiescent to forego a legitimate request for more information to help the decision making process and I respect that very much and will try to keep up answers worthy of your very legitimate questions.”
Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it.
“If I were an author writing about the virtues and attributes of a God I defined as the God of my understanding, I would say unequivocally that God does not want that any should perish.”
Fair enough. The God of the Bible says that too (at least twice)…but his behavior and the rules he has set for salvation don’t reflect that.
“Even in my own imperfect humanity I aspire to a simliar virtue and I offer exoneration for everyone willing to say “I made a mistake”, “I am sorry” which is exactly what I would expect others to offer me for similar mistakes; i.e., (sins).”
I think that would work for peccadilloes, but not for atrocities. Unless you mean, “I forgive you for committing murder, but since you did the crime, you do the time.”
“Beyond that we are all seekers and searchers for truth and you no less than for I.”
Truth!
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January 15, 2019 at 10:03 am
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
-Thomas Jefferson
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January 18, 2019 at 9:52 am
Derek, it seems like we are talking past each other at this point ….
I offered explanations of why there is judgment and the necessity of Jesus but you insist that God should have done this or should have done that.
As I said before, this is a matter of the heart, and while you are free to protest and make your arguments opposing God Himself, I can only assume that your conclusion is that the bible is total hogwash and that none of it is true. That said, what theology or philosophy will you turn to then ? It must be Humanism or Darwinism I would guess. If you can poke holes at the God of the bible, I’m sure you can poke holes in those philosophies as well. Correct me if I’m wrong.
It seems to me, you are looking for something that’s not there instead of accepting hard and sometimes difficult truths that are clearly spelled out in scripture. We can’t be the author of the Universe, it is what it is and God is Who He is. I think a lot of these questions arise are because we don’t have the full picture in our finite minds.
No hard feelings, I’m sorry that your picture is of God is limited to one of a person “hacking babies to death”.
Naz
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January 18, 2019 at 1:50 pm
“Derek, it seems like we are talking past each other at this point ….”
It appears so. My beliefs are entirely evidence-based, so I need more than vague assertions to justify belief.
“I offered explanations of why there is judgment and the necessity of Jesus but you insist that God should have done this or should have done that.”
But aren’t you bothered by the same questions that bother me? There are just too many inconsistencies and conflicting passages in the Bible for me to square with an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God. One can come up with creative interpretations to justify these issues…but the fact that such creative interpretation is even necessary just screams something is fundamentally wrong here, and I want to know what it is. “God works in mysterious ways” to me is just another way of saying he is not sane by our own standards.
“I can only assume that your conclusion is that the bible is total hogwash and that none of it is true.”
I wouldn’t say that NONE of it is true, but as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so anything to do with the supernatural surely needs extraordinary evidence.
“That said, what theology or philosophy will you turn to then ? It must be Humanism or Darwinism I would guess. If you can poke holes at the God of the bible, I’m sure you can poke holes in those philosophies as well. Correct me if I’m wrong.”
Well, Darwinism isn’t a theology or a philosophy, but a scientific theory (although the term “Darwinism” hasn’t been accurate for almost a hundred years now, since evolutionary theory now encompasses more than just natural selection, including genetics, sexual selection, paleontology and more). My degree is in evolutionary science, and I studied at the Charles Darwin Research Station in the Galapagos Islands, where I worked as a naturalist and guide, so I understand the topic quite well. The evidence isn’t complete (no scientific theory is ever complete), but no, there aren’t any holes in it.
Humanism is a philosophy and ethical system whose followers “believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.” I’m good with that, although I’ve never formally followed any philosophy.
“It seems to me, you are looking for something that’s not there instead of accepting hard and sometimes difficult truths that are clearly spelled out in scripture. We can’t be the author of the Universe, it is what it is and God is Who He is. I think a lot of these questions arise are because we don’t have the full picture in our finite minds.”
That may be true. The thing is, for some reason Christians hold humans to a higher standard than God. Even humans who mean well stumble and make mistakes because we are fallible, imperfect creatures, and we often get judged harshly, even for behavior beyond our control. But if God is perfect, one would expect his behavior to beyond reproach, consistent and unambiguously good. Yet the Bible is full of examples of him behaving in ways we wouldn’t tolerate among our fellow humans. Looking the other way rather than holding God to a higher standard just does not sit well with me. It’s true we don’t have the full picture…but that’s not our fault, it’s God’s. He COULD make us fully understand, yet chooses not to. Worse, for not looking the other way, the Bible says God will condemn me to hell. That doesn’t help my assessment of him.
“No hard feelings, I’m sorry that your picture is of God is limited to one of a person “hacking babies to death”.”
No, no hard feelings. I just don’t get why those who truly read God’s behavior in the Bible and ponder the apparently inevitable consequences don’t have alarm bells going off in their heads.
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January 25, 2019 at 11:16 am
Derek, let me try to take another approach here ….
To understand this, you need to believe the whole of scripture including Genesis and the creation of the earth and Mankind by God. The most basic principle we must grasp is that God is perfect in His moral character. That doesn’t mean He will automatically forgive every sin on a whim. His perfect sense of justice demands that sin must be punished. Think of it as a law of nature, like gravity, what goes up must come down. God cannot deny Himself it’s an impossibility.
When Man was created there was no sin. We existed in perfect harmony with God to the point that Adam and Eve were not even cognizant of being naked. There was no sin, no shame, none of the mind sets and evil thoughts that we are familiar with today. It wasn’t a naïvety, it was purity. Even the genome was pure and not ravaged by DNA degradation which explains why the offspring of Adam and Eve could marry and have children free of birth defects …. I digress.
After sin was introduced into humanity by our free choice, then God’s wrath was immediately in play. How Man related to God was changed. Instead of perfect harmony, it was by law, by the knowledge of good and evil. That was Man’s choice, not God’s. From that time until now, God has been making ways to bring Man back into harmony with Himself, Jesus is the ultimate expression of this where we can find peace with no fear of judgment or death.
You and I automatically expect God and perhaps others to have mercy because we are living 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. We are in an age of grace and mercy and have been so for a long time. We cannot even imagine what is was like BC (Before Christ).
I think with some perspective I hope you see what I’m getting at here. You are digging up events that happened in a time where the Law of Moses ruled the day, that is, if you were part of Israel. All other nations (Gentiles) were excluded from the blessings of Israel expect for a choice few Gentiles that showed faith in God.
Our natural disregard or flippant attitude towards God just demonstrates how separated Man is from Him and the enmity that exists between God and Man. Man fails to understand he is the created and not the Creator. We take on the role of God and what’s the first thing we do ? We put God Himself to the test and judge Him ! Only through Jesus can this enmity be done away with and new relationship with the Creator can begin for each of us. Jesus took the full wrath of God on our behalf so there is no more wrath, no more judgment, no more fear for those in Christ.
Man chose the knowledge of good and evil instead of the tree of life, as a result we have death, suffering, pain and despair in this world. It’s our own doing, yet God in His mercy has made a way for us.
I hope this helps.
Naz
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January 25, 2019 at 12:09 pm
Naz: It is the following bizarre paragraph taken from religious Dogma that made Mankind berserk….the control of the procreation process by sexual activity, of Mankind’s natural design for which s/he was made.
Self appointed Religious Man then wrote the narrative myth called the “Book of Genesis” to support the control of sexual activity that forced Mankind into a berserk mindset after the self appointed and religious appointed Priests, Preachers, Popes, Prophets and Predator Messengers declared sex was the original sin and for which God’s Messengers were tasked to oversee and assume the role of gatekeepers for sexual control. That God’s Messengers alone, would determine, when, where, why, how and with whom sexual activity would be authorized to take place. And we have seen the sins of mankind catapult out of control as a result of religious control.
Prior to the introduction of Mandatory sexual control by the Clerics everything was cool; /s/he were naked and without shame and exercised their design of a man leaving his mother and clinging to his wife. Uhh Uhhh…the P.P.P.P.P Force must prevail and it decides, by its authority when, where, why, how and with whom sexual activity would be authorized to take place.
After Religious Man introduced sin into humanity and stymied the free choice of leaving Mother and clinging to his wife, “natural marriage” then God’s wrath was immediately in play by the declaration by the Religious Clerics. How Man related to God from the interference of religious man from that moment onward was changed. Instead of perfect harmony, by the design of God, it became by law, by the knowledge of good and evil as dissected and bisected and split, and parted, sectioned and sub-sectioned, Man’s Law overrode the Design Laws of God’s Design.
That was Religious Man’s choice, not regular man’s choice and not God’s choice. Regular man from that time until now has been subjected to the niggle Laws of Religious man ever since and religious man decreed what sin was and then defined tansgression of the Law as SIN.
And Religious Man has been thwarting God’s ambitious plan of making ways to bring regular Man back into harmony with Himself, AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING BEFORE RELIGIOUS INSANITY AND LUST FOR POWER AND CONTROL. Jesus is the ultimate expression of this revolution where we can find peace with no fear of judgment or death from religious man and God is say Get back to where yo9u belong. Get rid of religious insanity and the fake supernaturalism that it controls.
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January 25, 2019 at 12:40 pm
Leo, Man chose religion instead of life. There is no distinction between “religious man” and “regular man”. In the beginning there was just “Man”.
When Man chose the knowledge of good and evil, he was choosing to live by do’s and dont’s. That was not God’s original design. There was no Law in the original plan and there was no need for Law. Law added because of transgressions.
As for sexual control, please….. It’s clear that God’s design for sexual relationships is one man and one woman. It’s only our sinful depravity that has turned this into a smorgasbord.
Naz
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January 25, 2019 at 5:02 pm
Naz:
Go to Genesis and read it again……in the beginning, and Jesus reiterated this……defined marriage and by defining marriage defined sexual activity, of course between a man and a woman; I’m not going anywhere else with sexual activity outside of “in the beginning”. So please don’t go into sexual “depravity” at that time, that’s not the way of the design and that’s another story for another story for another day; I am talking about “in the beginning” in the same sense that Jesus talked about “in the beginning”.
In Genesis, it is as clear as a bell:
1…..”…..made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were BOTH NAKED, the man and his wife, and WERE NOT ASHAMED.” Thus were they so designed.
And then as Natural Design would have it and the man and the man cleaved unto the woman, his wife by sexual consent, they became one flesh; and then what happened, ? Here’s the simplicity of becoming one flesh, They had sexual knowledge of each other…sexually togetherness is to know someone, a dictionary definition of having sex.
2. ….”….. WHEN THE WOMAN saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and did eat, AND GAVE also UNTO HER HUSBAND with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3: And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
So the question is what happened between the commentary time that they were naked and were not a shamed but as soon as they had sex , their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked………….and hid themselves:
WTF
.
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January 25, 2019 at 9:38 pm
Naz:
“….There was no Law in the original plan and there was no need for Law. Law added because of transgressions…..”
But sin is defined as Transgression of the Law so how can one transgress a Law if there was no Law.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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January 29, 2019 at 5:11 pm
“The most basic principle we must grasp is that God is perfect in His moral character.”
But how can you make that determination? Morality is about behavior, not celebrity. If someone deliberately and unnecessarily causes harm or suffering, that is immoral behavior…and the Bible is filled with examples of God doing just that. So…on what basis do you conclude that God has perfect moral character?
“His perfect sense of justice demands that sin must be punished.”
But I’ve pointed out the problems with this. On what basis can one say God is perfectly just? If he deliberately creates people incapable of making the decisions he wants (that has to be true if God plans everything, even our very steps), then what is just about punishing that person for doing exactly what he was created to do? And how is it just to send to heaven a person like Hitler who commits atrocities his entire life but accepts forgiveness just before he dies, whereas a kind non-believer who devotes his life to helping humanity gets eternal damnation? Finally, humans can only commit finite sins, yet God inflicts eternal punishment…punishment without any hope of redemption. It’s specifically these points that led me to question how God could possibly be just AT ALL, much less perfectly just.
“When Man was created there was no sin. We existed in perfect harmony with God to the point that Adam and Eve were not even cognizant of being naked.”
Well, NOBODY is cognizant of being naked in a culture without clothing (as many primitive tribes demonstrated upon first contact). But that’s not really important….
“After sin was introduced into humanity by our free choice, then God’s wrath was immediately in play.”
But you have to admit that God KNEW this would happen before he even created the universe, right? That’s what it means to be all knowing. Yet he did nothing to change how he created Lucifer, Adam and Eve…he just let the game play out as he knew it would. There was NO chance they could have made other decisions…because THIS is the universe God chose to create: the one where Lucifer rebelled and A&E disobeyed. So God became angry at his own creations for doing exactly what he created them to do. Does that make any sense?
“How Man related to God was changed. Instead of perfect harmony, it was by law, by the knowledge of good and evil. That was Man’s choice, not God’s.”
But that’s the thing…it was GOD’s choice, not man’s. There was no way A&E could have chosen differently, because THIS was the universe God chose to create, and he already knew EXACTLY how everything would turn out. That’s on him.
“You and I automatically expect God and perhaps others to have mercy because we are living 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. We are in an age of grace and mercy and have been so for a long time. We cannot even imagine what is was like BC (Before Christ).”
Two things: First, we can indeed imagine what it was like BC, because we have a lot of archaeological evidence for what life was like in many places. And more importantly, we’ve had MANY first contacts with primitive societies over the past few hundred years, and many of them were happy societies for thousands of years.
But I don’t expect God to have mercy, because his behavior throughout the Bible is not one of mercy, but of an angry, violent god of war. Jesus taught love, but his behavior was very different from Yahweh.
“I think with some perspective I hope you see what I’m getting at here. You are digging up events that happened in a time where the Law of Moses ruled the day, that is, if you were part of Israel. All other nations (Gentiles) were excluded from the blessings of Israel expect for a choice few Gentiles that showed faith in God.”
Well, an all-knowing God would have known what would happen and could have easily taken steps to prevent such things from happening. Yet evidently he didn’t act proactively, only reactively. That’s my biggest sticking point: How can a God who claims to be good NOT take action to prevent everything from going wrong? All it would have taken would have been to, say, not created Lucifer…and done, problem solved. Or if A&E were psychologically incapable of NOT sinning, then MAKE them psychologically incapable of sinning. The words of God and his behavior are contradictory…and that’s my problem.
“Our natural disregard or flippant attitude towards God just demonstrates how separated Man is from Him and the enmity that exists between God and Man. Man fails to understand he is the created and not the Creator. We take on the role of God and what’s the first thing we do ? We put God Himself to the test and judge Him !”
Do I sound flippant? I think I’m asking legitimate questions that everyone should ask. God is essentially asking for us to worship him in exchange for going to heaven. That’s transactional. Does it not make sense to ask questions to figure out if we are dealing with someone worthy of worship? So yes, clearly I’m putting God to the test…but without that we can end up enabling evil, and that is something I’m not fine with. I know many WWII Germans who ignored the evidence of Hitler’s behavior came to sorely regret it. As the saying goes, those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them….
“Jesus took the full wrath of God on our behalf so there is no more wrath, no more judgment, no more fear for those in Christ.”
But WHY was this necessary? What was the point? Was God incapable of forgiving humanity on his own? That goes against the notion of omnipotence. And why require ANYONE (I’m referring to Jesus here) to suffer punishment for which he was not guilty? And why did we need forgiveness in the first place? Why would God deliberately create a universe where he KNEW sin would occur…and then punish untold billions of people for doing what they were created to do?
The more we talk about this, the more it seems to me that the only explanation for God’s incongruous behavior is that if he exists he is, necessarily, evil. I see no other way to explain why God can SAY he’s good but commit or condone the worst atrocities in history, how he can create Lucifer and humanity destined to fail and then blame them for failing, how he can claim to love humanity but sentence untold billions of people to eternal damnation, how he can blame children for the sins of their parents, how he can condemn babies to hell, how he can damn people simply for not believing he exists…and how he can even have the character to want to be worshiped in the first place.
If this were a human we were talking about, would you give him the benefit of the doubt despite all this evidence? And shouldn’t the object of worship be held to a HIGHER standard than mere humans?
Sorry to disappoint you, but the “good news” doesn’t sound very good to me….
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January 29, 2019 at 5:18 pm
“It’s clear that God’s design for sexual relationships is one man and one woman. It’s only our sinful depravity that has turned this into a smorgasbord.”
Hmm, I’m not so sure. The following illustration is a bit flippant, but it does show how God is fine with a fairly wide variety of marriages, not just the “one man, one woman” type:
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January 30, 2019 at 6:52 am
Derek, after reading your last 2 posts I will try to “distill” my response to try and respond to you. I apologize for my lack of clarity or intellectual prowess, I’m not as well versed as I would like to be in trying to explain these things.
You mention several times that God is “all knowing”, and yes I agree He is. He knows our decisions before we make them and He knows the end from the beginning because He is outside of time and in fact created time itself. That itself should make us take some time to digest and to understand the gravity of Who He is. It’s pretty awesome to think about and that is the picture that is painted of Him in the scriptures …. criticisms aside …
That being said, God is not a Puppeteer. Just because He knows what will happen, He does not “cause” it to happen. For example, God knows who will win the Super Bowl this Sunday. That doesn’t mean He is making Tom Brady and the Pats win again …which for the record I hope they don’t 🙂
I think this whole discussion comes back to the concept of free will and choice. I strongly believe we as humans have a genuine free will in making choices. Yes, those choices are shaped by our heritage and circumstances but in the end we are truly culpable for our choices. I don’t agree with the notion of blaming God for our failures. He did not create us to sin but He did give us a choice, a real choice, not a contrived puppet on a string choice. That is what real life is all about, that is where we live. What you describe is not reality ! I agree with you, I too would have preferred God to fix everything so we could avoid this whole discussion … but that’s not reality. Derek, you cannot impose or superimpose your ideal sense of reality with regards of what God should or should not do, on top of the present true reality. By doing so, you have come to erroneous conclusions about God and the nature of our existence in my opinion.
It seems you would prefer that God was a Puppeteer and that He would just making everything the way it’s supposed to be and spare us the trouble and the anguish of this life. Well, you’re on the right track there in the sense that one day we are promised a new heaven and new earth where God will make everything right and there will be no more sin and death. Your ideal world will be realized and there will be true peace and harmony like never before.
But we are in the here and now and must make sense of where we are and why we are in this state. My main point which is opposite to your argument is that this whole mess is Man’s doing not God’s. This is the main sticking point of our argument. Derek, as much as you feel you have the right to “blame God”, you have no right as a created being to blame your Creator ! You are bringing into judgment the One who spoke everything you see into existence by the Word of His mouth. I think that fact must factor into how you reason this out. Yet God is not offended or taken back by your questions because He is kind and He is merciful despite what you think. Your questions are legitimate but your reasoning is flawed in my opinion. If you can accept Man’s culpability in making free will choices, then the bible may actually start to make sense to you and your opinion of God will change from one of a harsh judge to one of a provider and giver of life who was rejected by His own creation, by those He created in His own image.
Naz
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February 5, 2019 at 3:06 pm
“I apologize for my lack of clarity or intellectual prowess, I’m not as well versed as I would like to be in trying to explain these things.”
No problem, there’s nothing wrong with trying a different approach, and sometimes that’s what it takes.
“You mention several times that God is “all knowing”, and yes I agree He is. He knows our decisions before we make them and He knows the end from the beginning because He is outside of time and in fact created time itself. That itself should make us take some time to digest and to understand the gravity of Who He is. It’s pretty awesome to think about and that is the picture that is painted of Him in the scriptures …. criticisms aside …”
Well, I would certainly find his powers impressive, but not any of his creations. After all, if God is all powerful then by definition it was no effort for him to create time, space, matter, etc.
“That being said, God is not a Puppeteer. Just because He knows what will happen, He does not “cause” it to happen.”
But how do you KNOW that? That’s not what the Bible indicates.
“For example, God knows who will win the Super Bowl this Sunday. That doesn’t mean He is making Tom Brady and the Pats win again …which for the record I hope they don’t 🙂”
See what I mean…he is evil! 😉
“I think this whole discussion comes back to the concept of free will and choice. I strongly believe we as humans have a genuine free will in making choices.”
I do understand that you believe this…but what I don’t get is why. If the Bible says God plans everything, including our actions, then what is the rationalization for saying we have actual free will in making out choices?
“Yes, those choices are shaped by our heritage and circumstances but in the end we are truly culpable for our choices. I don’t agree with the notion of blaming God for our failures.”
But if free will is merely an illusion, and we are all essentially characters acting out the intentions of a divine novelist, who else but the novelist can be blamed for the actions of his characters?
“He did not create us to sin but He did give us a choice, a real choice, not a contrived puppet on a string choice.”
Yet if God is all knowing, then he HAD to have known that sin would happen. He new with 100% certainty that if he chose THIS universe to create and did nothing to change things, sin would absolutely occur. He could have not created Lucifer and solved the whole problem…but he didn’t. He could have given Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit so they would know it was evil to disobey God…but he didn’t. So he had to have created us to sin. After all, if you create a computer program, deliberately include a bug that you know will cause the program to crash, and then it crashes, you can’t blame the program for your mistake, can you?
“That is what real life is all about, that is where we live. What you describe is not reality ! I agree with you, I too would have preferred God to fix everything so we could avoid this whole discussion … but that’s not reality.”
But if the Bible is true, then my conclusion IS reality. How can God determine everything and yet NOT be culpable for everything that happens?
“It seems you would prefer that God was a Puppeteer and that He would just making everything the way it’s supposed to be and spare us the trouble and the anguish of this life.”
It’s not about what I would PREFER. I think I would prefer to have free will, but neuroscience indicates our decisions are made at the unconscious level and imposed upon our consciousness long BEFORE we have the perception of making a “free will” decision (this study is pretty shocking: http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide). That would be compatible with the Bible claiming God plans everything. So I don’t think free will exists.
Also interesting is that people convince themselves that they are making correct free will choices even in tests where a free will decision isn’t possible. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html).
For some insight into why, evidently people who read information challenging the existence of free will prior to taking a test are more likely to cheat on that test. Since morality is necessary for the success of all social species, and humans are among the most social of social species, the PERCEPTION of free will may have evolved as a mechanism to increase moral behavior. Better to live with the illusion that free will exists if it increases the survival of the species (https://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/91974.pdf).
“Well, you’re on the right track there in the sense that one day we are promised a new heaven and new earth where God will make everything right and there will be no more sin and death. Your ideal world will be realized and there will be true peace and harmony like never before.”
Then what is the point of this life? If God already knows exactly who will be saved and who won’t, why not only create those who will be saved and avoid the farce of our earthly existence?
But that does bring up another problem: Apparently those who go to heaven won’t have the freedom to commit sin:
• Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful.
• Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse.
So evidently free will isn’t ultimately all that important to God anyway.
“My main point which is opposite to your argument is that this whole mess is Man’s doing not God’s. This is the main sticking point of our argument.”
Yes, I guess that is the main sticking point. But I can’t see how someone with perfect knowledge and power who lets such atrocities take place can be considered a moral being. Consider how we react to people who stand around watching a gang rape instead of intervening or at least calling the police. We consider them reprehensible, don’t we?
“Derek, as much as you feel you have the right to “blame God”, you have no right as a created being to blame your Creator !”
I have to ask…why not? If you, say, brutally attacked someone, then found out your father secretly laced your food with a drug guaranteed to cause you to attack people, wouldn’t you blame him, regardless of whether or not he’s your creator? Better example: If we end up creating artificial intelligence capable of suffering, then we deliberately and unnecessarily make it suffer, wouldn’t our creation have the right to call out our behavior? Should ANYONE be above criticism? I think people have a right to question behavior that condones or commits atrocities, regardless of the source of that behavior.
“You are bringing into judgment the One who spoke everything you see into existence by the Word of His mouth. I think that fact must factor into how you reason this out.”
No, it doesn’t. Even if God created us, none of us asked to be created. You can’t force something on someone and then use that as a reason to expect them to ignore your questionable behavior. You can’t even expect them to be thankful for that something, even if it’s intended as a gift. Nor should they be blamed if they aren’t.
“Yet God is not offended or taken back by your questions because He is kind and He is merciful despite what you think.”
Good thing, otherwise I’d have been struck by lightning by now. 😉
“Your questions are legitimate but your reasoning is flawed in my opinion.”
But WHERE is my reasoning flawed? This is what I’m really getting at. Surely you agree that those passages I’ve posted at least IMPLY that God plans everything and thus free will doesn’t exist, right? Furthermore, surely you agree that simply having the capacity to choose doesn’t necessitate the existence of free will IF something else is making the decisions for you and imposing them upon your conscious mind, right? Thus, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that God is fully responsible for every act of evil? I understand that you interpret those passages differently (although I’m not sure how), but I don’t see how my reasoning is flawed here.
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February 6, 2019 at 8:42 am
Derek, good response. I need time to digest this and get back to you.
As for the Pats, maybe this is God’s way of consoling Boston for the marathon bombing ….. So God is a Brady fan after all ?
I’m just kidding, we can make all kinds of claims and then say that God did it, which is what I think you’re sort of saying.
More to come ….
Naz
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February 12, 2019 at 5:22 am
Derek, let’s distill this conversation a little more by taking your last statement which I think summarizes your position.
Surely you agree that those passages I’ve posted at least IMPLY that God plans everything and thus free will doesn’t exist, right? Furthermore, surely you agree that simply having the capacity to choose doesn’t necessitate the existence of free will IF something else is making the decisions for you and imposing them upon your conscious mind, right? Thus, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that God is fully responsible for every act of evil?
Please re-post those passages for clarity or point me to the blog number so I can re-read them. Thanks.
Naz
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February 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm
“Please re-post those passages for clarity or point me to the blog number so I can re-read them.”
No problem, Naz. It was post #4, but here is the relevant part of the post again:
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NOWHERE in the Bible does it say free will exists, or that the choices we think we’re making are our own. In fact, it says the exact opposite, clearly stating that God plans EVERYTHING, including our very steps:
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end–even the wicked for the day of disaster. [He doesn’t just determine SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
• Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those DESTINED FOR DEATH, captivity to those DESTINED FOR CAPTIVITY, and the sword to those DESTINED FOR THE SWORD.
• Psalm 37:23 A MAN’S STEPS ARE ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [Evidently God delights in establishing a man’s steps to take the wrong path.]
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE.
• John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS THEM. [Only God decides who will be saved and who won’t.]
• John 6:37 ALL THOSE THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [If God decides to save you, you WILL be saved, no choice.]
• Acts 13:48 and ALL WHO WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God were appointed to do so.]
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Romans 8:20 For THE CREATURE WAS MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT BY REASON OF HIM WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE. [It’s not our will that subjects us to vanity, but God’s.]
• Romans 9:19-21 “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, TO MAKE FROM THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR COMMON USE?”
• Isaiah 14:27 For THE LORD ALMIGHTY HAS PURPOSED, and who can thwart him?
• Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass.
• Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT? [People don’t cause disaster unless God makes them do it.]
• Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that NO PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED.”
The Bible does stress the importance of making the right choices, but being able to make choices doesn’t require free will. In fact, even animals that clearly don’t have free will are perfectly capable of making decisions. Computers can even be programmed to make decisions. So I think the biblical evidence is pretty clear that free will is only an illusion, and that GOD is the one responsible for EVERY action, good and evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
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I hope that helps.
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August 26, 2019 at 6:00 pm
First sorry for the long post, I just kept going 🙂
The entire Bible is full of this kind of statement. The fact that Calvinists respond to a single verse like this by pulling up the Greek, or expounding on it with 7 pages of pedantic rebuttal demonstrates the ditch they have to dig out of to make God’s word intelligible.
I just wish they would honestly examine how other people with clear errors go about digging out of their teachings. They would recognize themselves…. All doesn’t mean all, Jesus didn’t die for the world…
It’s just a mountain of clear evidence against them but they’re so indoctrinated, like these others, that they just cannot See it.
I’m not saying Arminianism should be a doctrine either (if it’s taught God foresees faith – because that is not clearly taught either). I’m saying Calvin actually had the nerve to Accuse God.
The teachers of old had a nerve that goes beyond what is written. It seems to me that Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, and many others were just Meandering around scripture, contemplating whether it was God or their own ideas popping into their heads. Look at the commentaries throughout history.. It really seems that people like this believed they had special authority to interpret and go beyond what was clear. They are all so sure and they all disagree.
With the real apostasy of the liberal and gay agenda destroying congregations, it would be real nice if men would actually serve Christ instead of their lust for their own factions of personal truth.
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August 26, 2019 at 10:39 pm
“With the real apostasy of the liberal and gay agenda destroying congregations”
I’m sorry but there’s no evidence to support this claim. Some churches expanding the acceptance of congregants doesn’t shrink congregations, it expands them. Don’t forget, the Jesus of the Bible was a liberal.
No, the slow death of Christianity correlates most closely with the rise of the Internet, not with the acceptance of gays or liberals. As someone involved with FFRF and other secular organizations, I see a LOT of ex-Christians who lost their faith, ironically, because they wanted to study everything they could about Christianity. That led them to discover that the historical evidence for Christianity is contrary to how they were taught in church, which led to further investigation into alternative views, which led them to discover more problems with Christianity, which caused them to lose their faith. A good friend of mine was an evangelical pastor for over 30 years before ending up going down that path and becoming an atheist. It all started with access to knowledge.
The Internet gives people access to resources that earlier generations were never even aware existed. This is also why the more educated and well-travelled a person is, the less likely he or she is to be religious. And it’s also why denominations and cults that keep their congregants separate from or antagonistic toward society have an easier time keeping their members from leaving their faith.
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July 8, 2021 at 11:03 am
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
John 12:48
So many versus in the Bible are opposite of Calvinism…a theology of man and not they Bible. The most defining verse of the Christian faith is John 3:16. When your beliefs can’t explain John 3:16, you have a problem.
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