If God is omniscient, then He knows everything that will happen in the future – including everything you will ever do. God knows that on x date at time t1 you will stub your toe, and on q date at time t5 you will forget where you placed your keys. God has had such knowledge from eternity past. Since God cannot be mistaken, it is certain that you will stub your toe on x date at time t1 and forget your keys on q date at time t5. How, then, can our “choices” be free? Does God’s knowledge of the future eliminate free will, reducing us to mere actors who simply perform the parts of a cosmic play written for us by God from eternity past? Are we puppets with no control over our own destiny? Is our experience of free choice illusory? Darwinist, Robert Eberle, sums up the problem nicely:
[Francis] Collins asserts that there is still free will, but fails to explain his logic for arriving at this extraordinary conclusion. Either what will be is known and fixed or it is not. An infallible god that knows what is going to happen is in conflict with the idea that there is free choice and thus a responsibility for one’s actions.[1]
I am not persuaded that God’s knowledge of the future determines our fate for two reasons. First, knowledge is not a cause of anything. Knowledge of some x is not what causes x to be. The truth of x must precede the knowledge of x.
To understand why, imagine that humans had perfect knowledge of past events. Would our knowledge of those events make us the cause of those events? No. They happened completely independent of our causal powers. One might object that our knowledge of the past cannot cause the past because this would require backward causation, which is metaphysically absurd. Causes precede their effects. In this case, however, the effect (history) precedes the cause (our knowledge). I agree that it is metaphysically impossible for our knowledge of the past to cause the past, but this misses the point. The point to be made is that there is no causal connection between events and knowledge of those events. If the particular flow of time I have chosen obscures that point, then let’s reverse the flow. Imagine that you had a time machine. You travel to next year’s Super Bowl and observe which team wins. Then, you return to the present time and inform your friends. When the future Super Bowl finally arrives, the team you identified as the winning team goes on to win the game just as you said they would. Would it make any sense for your friends to say your prior knowledge that they would win caused them to win? No. Your knowledge of what would happen in the future had no causal influence on who won the game. It was the performance of the winning team that caused them to win. You simply knew the outcome of their actions in advance, which brings me to the second reason.
God’s knowledge does not determine our choices, rather, our choices determine God’s knowledge. God simply knows what we will do – He does not determine that we do it. His knowledge of the future is informed by our free choices. God knows that we will freely choose y rather than x, and thus God knows y rather than x. If, in the future, we would have exercised our volitional powers to choose x rather than y, then God would have known x instead of y.
This raises a question: How can our free choices determine the content of God’s knowledge if God’s knowledge precedes our choices? The answer is simple but profound: God’s knowledge of our future choices is chronologically prior to us making those choices, but our choices are logically prior to God’s knowledge.
Logical priority is different than temporal priority. Temporal priority is chronological in nature, characterized by the earlier than relation. Some x exists at time t1 followed by y at time t2. Logical priority is different. It entails a logical relationship between some x and y. For example, imagine a bowling ball resting on a cushion from eternity past. We would observe a depression in the pillow. But what caused the depression in the pillow? There can’t be a chronologically prior cause since the depression in the pillow has existed from eternity past, and yet clearly there is a cause for the depression: the bowling ball. The weight, shape, and geographical proximity of the bowling ball caused the depression in the pillow. But how? The cause (ball) can’t be chronologically prior to the effect (depression) since both have existed from eternity past. The only sense in which the ball can be causally prior to the depression is in a logical sense. The depression would not exist if the ball did not exist, so the ball is logically prior to the depression. In a similar way, our choices are not chronologically prior to God’s knowledge, but they are logically prior to God’s knowledge. God’s foreknowledge of our future choices determine the content of God’s knowledge from eternity past.
Is our future determined, then? Yes, in the sense that we will do everything that God has always known we would do, but no, in the sense that God has determined that we do those things. Our future is determined by our present free choices. God simply knows the choices we will freely make from eternity past. It’s not that we can’t choose differently, but that we won’t choose differently.
Perhaps it is best to describe our future as both “settled” and “open.” It is open from our perspective because our free choices in the present determine what our future will look like; however, it is settled from God’s perspective because He has always known every free choice you will make.
_________________________
[1]Robert K. Eberle, “The Language of God: If God Could Talk What Would he Say?” Review of Francis Collins’ book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief. Contained in an eSkeptic newsletter dated 02 October 2006.
February 21, 2022 at 11:44 am
Hi Jason,
My answer is no.
We still have free will, but because GOD is omniscient, He knows the choices we will make before we make them, because He has the ability to know the future.
In other words, His omnipresence is in the past, present and future.
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February 22, 2022 at 12:04 am
I don’t think we have as much “free will” as many would think/believe. Our choices are highly influenced by circumstances and are constrained by many factors. I can choose to eat an apple whenever I want, because I have the means to maintain an inventory of apples at home. In some places in the world, apples are just a luxury that some may know of from a picture in a book they once saw.
I choose to be an astronaut, but my country doesn’t even have a proper space program…
So the scale of the “choice” doesn’t really matter. It depends on what choices you can make given where you live, the social status etc.
Within this context you have “freedom” to choose.
But as the Word says: “A man’s heart deviseth his way:
But the LORD directeth his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9) – we make our plans, but the circumstances and context we found ourselves in influences these choices and in turn these bigger concepts are what I believe God controls/influences. Also, these larger concepts are directed to the fulfillment of Gods prophecies/promises/judgements/etc..
So, we are all moving towards a certain per-determined outcome and the best we have is some “free choice” inside that bubble.
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February 22, 2022 at 12:34 am
Nicc777, the concept of free will does not entail that you can choose anything that is logically possible to choose. It does not mean there are no constraints to what we can choose. It simply means that our choices are not coerced. When I go to the grocery store I freely choose which ice cream I want to buy despite the fact that they don’t carry every flavor known to man. What makes my choice free is that no one is coercing me to choose the flavor that I do (which is homemade vanilla, of course!).
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February 22, 2022 at 12:54 am
I think we are more or less saying the same thing – within a certain context you can choose freely among the options available – and like you say, no one is coercing me into a particular choice in that scenario – it’s purely my choice.
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March 4, 2022 at 8:38 am
“Since God cannot be mistaken, it is certain that you will stub your toe on x date at time t1 and forget your keys on q date at time t5. How, then, can our “choices” be free? Does God’s knowledge of the future eliminate free will, reducing us to mere actors who simply perform the parts of a cosmic play written for us by God from eternity past? Are we puppets with no control over our own destiny? Is our experience of free choice illusory?”
I think that the main theological evidence that we don’t have free will is the fact that the Bible basically states we don’t. As I’ve noted in the past, not only does the claim that we have free will appear nowhere in the Bible, there are plenty of passages that essentially claim God plans everything, right down to our very steps. For instance:
• Proverbs 16:4 THE LORD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING to its proper end—even the wicked for the day of disaster. [Note that it doesn’t say he just determines SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD. [God determines the results of even seemingly random events.]
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD. HOW THEN CAN ANYONE UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN WAY?
• Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord’s hand THE KING’S HEART IS A STREAM OF WATER THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL WHO PLEASE HIM.
• Ephesians 1:5 He PREDESTINED us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
• Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? NEITHER CAN YOU DO GOOD who are accustomed to doing evil.
• Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those DESTINED FOR DEATH, captivity to those DESTINED FOR CAPTIVITY, and the sword to those DESTINED FOR THE SWORD.
• Psalm 37:23 A MAN’S STEPS ARE ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [God delights in establishing a man’s steps to take the wrong path?!]
• Psalm 90:9 WE SPEND OUR YEARS AS A TALE THAT IS TOLD.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK before one of them came to be.
• Psalm 105:24-25 The Lord made his people very fruitful; he made them too numerous for their foes, WHOSE HEARTS HE TURNED TO HATE HIS PEOPLE, TO CONSPIRE AGAINST HIS SERVANTS.
• John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS THEM. [Only God decides who will be saved and who won’t.]
• John 6:37 ALL THOSE THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [If God decides to save you, you WILL be saved, no choice.]
• Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Romans 8:20 For THE CREATURE WAS MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT BY REASON OF HIM WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE. [It’s not our will that subjects us to vanity, but God’s.]
• Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and HE HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN.
• Romans 9:19-21 “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, TO MAKE FROM THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR COMMON USE?”
• Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I RAISED YOU UP FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [God created Pharaoh to behave in a specific way so he could show off.]
• Romans 11:7-8 What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
• Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I HAVE HARDENED HIS HEART AND THE HEARTS OF HIS OFFICIALS so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.” [God forced them to behave as he wanted so he could show off.]
• Exodus 12:35-36 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. THE LORD HAD MADE THE EGYPTIANS FAVORABLY DISPOSED TOWARD THE PEOPLE, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.
• Ezekiel 38:3-4 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. I WILL TURN YOU AROUND, PUT HOOKS IN YOUR JAWS AND BRING YOU OUT WITH YOUR WHOLE ARMY.
• Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD HAD MADE HIS SPIRIT STUBBORN AND HIS HEART OBSTINATE in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
• Joshua 11:20 FOR IT WAS THE LORD HIMSELF WHO HARDENED THEIR HEARTS to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally.
• Isaiah 14:27 For THE LORD ALMIGHTY HAS PURPOSED, and who can thwart him?
• Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT. IN DAYS OF OLD I PLANNED IT; now I have brought it to pass.
• Isaiah 46:10 I MAKE KNOWN THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, from ancient times, what is still to come.
• Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT? [People don’t cause disaster unless God makes them do it.]
• Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that NO PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED.”
• 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
• Acts 4:28 They did what your power and will HAD DECIDED BEFOREHAND should happen.
• Acts 13:48 and ALL WHO WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God were appointed to do so.]
The Bible certainly does stress the importance of making the right choices, but being able to make choices doesn’t require free will. In fact, even simple animals that clearly don’t have free will are perfectly capable of making decisions. Computers can even be programmed to make decisions, and clearly they don’t have free will.
It’s clear we have the perception of free will…but evidently that is just an illusion. So how would this work? As an analogy, it’s like God is a writer and we are the characters in his novel. We THINK we have free will and that all our thoughts and actions are ours to make, but the reality is that the writer plans EVERYTHING that happens, both in thought and action. (The difference is, characters in a novel can’t actually suffer, and thus there is no harm in having horrible things happen to them.)
“I am not persuaded that God’s knowledge of the future determines our fate for two reasons. First, knowledge is not a cause of anything.”
That’s true, knowledge doesn’t cause anything…but acting on that knowledge does. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then before he even created this universe he was aware of every possible universe he COULD create, right? And he was aware exactly how each and every one of those universes would turn out. This would be true regardless of whether or not free will exists.
And if God is all powerful, he could have created any one of those universes. He COULD have chosen to create one of the universes where everyone happens to make the “right” decisions (again, this would be true regardless of whether or not free will exists). But clearly he didn’t. Out of that infinite pallet of universes to choose from, THIS is the universe HE CHOSE to create. So he KNEW that the vast majority of humanity in THIS universe would make the “wrong” choices, yet he nevertheless chose to create this universe anyway.
So this has to mean HE is the only one directly responsible for EVERY action committed by EVERYONE, right? Because he CHOSE this universe to create when he didn’t have to. Regardless of whether free will exists, it MUST have been possible for a universe to exist where you made different choices (otherwise choice wouldn’t exist), and if God had chosen to create that universe, you would have made those different choices. That means it’s not a matter of God merely KNOWING what we will do, but CHOOSING what we will do.
Thus, when you ask “So Does God’s knowledge of the future eliminate free will, reducing us to mere actors who simply perform the parts of a cosmic play written for us by God from eternity past? Are we puppets with no control over our own destiny? Is our experience of free choice illusory?” I think the answer to all these questions must INEVITABLY be yes. Unless any of my points is wrong, what other conclusion can there be?
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March 4, 2022 at 3:57 pm
And for a refutation of Post 5, please see the Tempted to Works Righteousness thread.
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March 7, 2022 at 4:15 am
Scalia, instead of sending people off on a long, messy, ultimately pointless thread, how about keeping it simple and just answering the question at the end of my post: “Unless any of my points is wrong, what other conclusion can there be?” That way we can avoid going into irrelevant esoteric arguments and stick to the point. Fair enough? And please…can we keep it civil this time?
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March 7, 2022 at 7:43 am
Derek,
Just to refresh my memory, do you believe in the existence of God and the validity of the Word of God?
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March 7, 2022 at 9:37 am
@Sister Elaine
Derek is an atheist.
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March 7, 2022 at 10:15 am
Hi Bro Scalia,
OK…..so Derek is an atheist who isolates a scripture & takes it out of context to prove his personal opinion….got it.
Does he actually think he can prove his point that way? It’s foolishness and intellectual immaturity.
It’s a total waste of time (I say this generally, not to you personally) to debate people on a topic that they have no belief in.
It’s like me going to a Hindu, Mormon, Greek Orthodox, Muslim, Buddhist or Baptist platform and waste my time arguing with folks who cling strongly to their doctrines and me trying to prove them wrong with the touch of a keyboard.
9 times out of 10, You, me and especially Derek cannot change a person’s mind via social media. It always turns into a debate and arguments. There are far better ways to witness the truth of God’s Word and that is one-on-one.
Derek posted a long-winded reply with verses that he personally cannot comprehend or decipher correctly.
Why?…because his heart & soul is not invested in God’s wisdom, love & truth. Derek refuses to read above & below each particular verse so he can correctly discern the meaning. Derek has no desire to learn God’s truth, so why even debate him on it? It’s fruitless.
Taking scripture out of context IS EXACTLY that Satan does to deceive people who lack knowledge in the Word of God.
So if Derek chooses to be an atheist and has closed his heart to the possibility of asking God Himself for truth, then certainly there is nothing we can do to help him. (sad to say)
I sincerely DO hope Derek seeks God for his answers, and if he does have honest questions, I know we are more than happy to help him….but if Derek’s intention is only to debate and use scriptures incorrectly to prove his opinion, then it’s pointless to engage.
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March 7, 2022 at 1:14 pm
@Sister Elaine,
Yes, it’s a total waste of time to debate Derek (as my link in Post 6 demonstrates). It is not a waste of time to debate everybody, because some minds are definitely changed when a person argues in good faith. And many lurkers who for whatever reason seldom if ever post can be swayed by good arguments. So, for the benefit of honest-hearted souls, debate can be good.
Derek, however, as stated, is just a time waster. He forgets the points he is making, accuses his interlocutor of being incorrect when said party is actually repeating one of his arguments, and will positively refuse to admit a clear logical error despite its being pointed out to him repeatedly. He gets his chonies tied in a wad over “uncivil” discourse when he’s the one who initiates it!
Our first debate (Even if the universe is eternal, it still needs a cause) taught me to avoid him if possible. But after his repeated begging, I consented to one more round to see if there was any real change in him. As everybody can see, that was a mistake. I will not venture down that road again.
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March 7, 2022 at 2:27 pm
Bro Scalia,
You are right, not every discussion on a social platform is negative….some can be great if both sides demonstrate respect for each other.
But with Derek and that other atheist (Chubbs) who consistently got aggravated with me because I would not pay his game, it is / was a waste of time.
I don’t like to call any soul “a waste of time” because Jesus died for them as well, but their actions & behavior can be totally a time waster.
Anyway you have a great day and God bless you!
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March 24, 2022 at 3:14 pm
derekmathias, lol ………. the obvious conclusion that you are delusional. knowing what is going to happen doesn’t mean God is making it happen.
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March 24, 2022 at 3:19 pm
EXACTLY Paul Vander Voort….you are 100% correct!
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March 25, 2022 at 4:57 am
“Just to refresh my memory, do you believe in the existence of God and the validity of the Word of God?”
No to both questions, although I am always open to credible supportive evidence. I am an agnostic atheist.
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March 25, 2022 at 5:03 am
“OK…..so Derek is an atheist who isolates a scripture & takes it out of context to prove his personal opinion….got it.”
Attacking a person’s character rather than their argument is called an ad hominem fallacy, and is therefore not a a valid argument. Furthermore, it is a tacit admission that you don’t have an effective response to the question, since if you had one you would simply present it.
Please explain to me exactly what I have gotten out of context. Is the Bible correct when it says God plans everything, or is it wrong?
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March 25, 2022 at 5:23 am
“Derek, however, as stated, is just a time waster. He forgets the points he is making, accuses his interlocutor of being incorrect when said party is actually repeating one of his arguments, and will positively refuse to admit a clear logical error despite its being pointed out to him repeatedly. He gets his chonies tied in a wad over “uncivil” discourse when he’s the one who initiates it!”
I have always endeavored to argue reasonably and without rancor, but you seem to insist again and again on turning these discussions into personal attacks. As with Elaine, you seem to be more interested in attacking my character rather than simply answering the question in a civil manner, which leads me to conclude you don’t have a credible answer to my question.
There is no reason or benefit to getting upset with me over some imagined slight, and I have tried to be civil with you on this thread. So far, it seems the only person willing to consistently be civil is the blog owner, which I appreciate. I don’t understand why so many Christians feel it is necessary to get so angry about being asked questions that any reasonable person might ask. I shouldn’t have to quote this, but…
Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
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March 25, 2022 at 5:31 am
“the obvious conclusion that you are delusional. knowing what is going to happen doesn’t mean God is making it happen.”
Since that is not my argument, you are making a strawman fallacy. My argument is that God deliberately chose THIS universe to create out of a potentially infinite number of universes he must surely be able to imagine. Furthermore, I provided the biblical evidence that God plans everything—not just some things: everything. That is not at all the same thing as simply knowing something will happen without being responsible for causing it.
And you are now the third person directly attacking my character rather than addressing my question. So unless you simply misunderstood my post, it would seem you also have no credible answer for my question.
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March 25, 2022 at 7:18 am
Derek, please show me the exact quote where I supposedly attacked your character and be specific.
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March 25, 2022 at 10:28 am
As stated, the linked threads speak for themselves.
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March 25, 2022 at 1:02 pm
derkmathias, lol ……….. yes it is an argument and i proved you are using your own arguments. and i see you didnt disprove my point because you cant.
let me help you remain in your delusion and help you delude others like yourself. there’s 2 scenarios that you could use to prove the bible does not foretell the future —- because like i told you before you are just showing you are delusional for trying to use the bible to disprove the belief in God.
the first is a short time prophecy — you could disprove that by saying the person either guessed and got it right or made it up for a few obvious reasons. example the guy getting trampled in the city gate.
the second is a long term prophecy — people see themselves in this prophecy and then take actions that eventually fulfill it. statistically that doesnt make sense but “agnostic atheists” dont care about math/science in their pursuit to disprove the existence of God. example the list of kingdoms after babylon fell.
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March 25, 2022 at 1:05 pm
Elaine, he’s talking about me and i have attacked him but those attacks are accurate/factual — just like everyone else ive “attacked.” at my age im tired of suffering fools
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March 25, 2022 at 2:18 pm
Hi Paul,
I know he primarily meant it towards you, but in his comment on March 25, 2022 @ 5:23am, he included my name on who thinks also attacked his character.
This is what the lovely Derek said…..
“As with Elaine, you seem to be more interested in attacking my character rather than simply answering the question in a civil manner, which leads me to conclude you don’t have a credible answer to my question.”
So Paul, I would be interested in knowing how I (we) attacked him…….I wonder if he will get back to us on that? 😉
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March 25, 2022 at 5:56 pm
Elaine, I cant remember you attacking anyone as i define it. now ive attacked him and others numerous times on this site including this post — but it’s always deserved.
one of the main arguments against our team on this subject is — God has foreknowledge because we are following a prepared script He wrote. now based on what derekmathias wrote here he is singing that tune also imho. now if he was logical and reasonable and i misunderstood him he’d say the following….. <<>>
but see people like him never do that. that’s why ilmao at them. they dont clearly state their point so we cant show their error and they can remain in their delusion.
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March 25, 2022 at 6:00 pm
a part of my above post disappeared so i’ll rewrite it here ………… yes your point is correct/not correct BUT that’s not the argument i was making. and then clearly state why my point is false and what their argument is. but they never do that because they are lie protectors NOT truth seekers
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March 25, 2022 at 10:13 pm
Hi Paul,
People like Derek call “disagreeing with their (i)llogical arguments” an attack on their character. They are very thin-skinned. They can dish it out but then they start whining if they get a little dished back at them. Then they quote verses out of the Bible to lecture us about turning the other cheek.
Anyway, between Derek and another atheist named Clubbs or Chubbs (I forgot his full-too-long-of-a-name) they always post thesis-length arguments and somehow in all of their thousands of words, we are supposed to find the question they claim that they are asking us.
All they say is “bla bla bla” and I find myself wondering why atheists would waste their time on a Christian platform?
It’s like back in the 90’s when Chat Rooms where “The Thing” and I would visit the AOL Christian Chat and always without fail, it was either an atheist or a Satanist who would highjack and gaslight the Christian Chat with their nonsense.
Why don’t atheists find their own buddies on an atheist platform and engage with them?
Well I think we know the answer.
I sincerely pray that one day, folks like Derek will come face to face with the One True Living God and learn about HIS great mercy & love and be partakers of the born-again experience.
Anyhow you have a nice weekend Paul and God bless you!
~Elaine
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March 26, 2022 at 12:13 pm
Elaine, sadly yes —- many people now call disagreeing with them an attack even when you do it “politely.” for 30yrs i was “nice” but noticed 2 problems —
#1 it didnt matter some went cre cre anyway because you attacked their delusion and #2 it didnt help because you didnt rub their nose in it. some people really have a thick skull and youve got to pound them until it cracks open and they finally hear what you say.
see if 2 logical and reasonable people disagreed on this point theyd state clearly what they believe and then when you responded state what points you agree on so “you can walk together.” but people like derekmathais are delusional and dont walk together they want to remain in their error.
knowing what is going to happen doesn’t mean God is making it happen. may be a strawman but it’s correct — now that disproves many that say we dont have free will. so if he had another argument his side doesnt use then he should state it clearly so we can refute that one also. some of the better ones i mentioned above and dont disprove only give a possible explanation for.
now i reread his comment again and he does appear to make that argument i destroyed. so that being said that proves my argument was not a strawman.
he also makes another point but that’s easily refuted also ……..
there are some verses in the bible that appear to be scripted — two of the most brought up in my experience is the exodus/nativity verses. there’s evidence pharaoh/Mary did have free will but because of his/her character he/she acted as per God’s plan.
and it’s hilarious to say “I think that the main theological evidence that we don’t have free will is the fact that the Bible basically states we don’t. As I’ve noted in the past, not only does the claim that we have free will appear nowhere in the Bible,” is this his argument even though later he seems to agree with the one i refuted ??? i ignored this because it’s idiotic and right from God creating man in Genesis we see clearly God gave man free will. we are created in His image and He by definition has free will plus His 1st command to Adam proves Adam has free will.
see this is why ilmao —- symbolic or literal it doesnt matter ………. if man didnt fall, Adam had to choose to disobey=free will, the whole bible crashes and burns. and in all my years ive never seen/heard any argument based in logic and reason that we dont have free will. so that’s why people like derekmathais use logical fallacies because they cant prove us wrong.
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March 29, 2022 at 7:57 am
“Derek, please show me the exact quote where I supposedly attacked your character and be specific.”
Sure. Instead of addressing my argument, you wrote this: “OK…..so Derek is an atheist who isolates a scripture & takes it out of context to prove his personal opinion….got it. Does he actually think he can prove his point that way? It’s foolishness and intellectual immaturity.” That’s an attack on a person’s character, rather than the argument, thus making it a fallacy. It’s what people do when they have no counter-argument. After all, if someone has an effective counter-argument, they will of course use it.
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March 29, 2022 at 8:08 am
“As stated, the linked threads speak for themselves.”
Actually, they don’t. You’re asking people to wade through an extremely long argument that went all over the place and got lost in the weeds. I apologize for my part in not keeping the topic on track and thus contributing to the lack of focus, but you and others were also responsible for this. So…this is a good opportunity to start over and stick to the subject. Thus, if you have an answer to my question, I’d love to hear it. If you don’t have an answer, either let me know or simply don’t address the topic and I’ll know.
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March 29, 2022 at 8:16 am
@Derek, that question was answered myriad times in the other thread. So, the fact that you do not recall what it is speaks volumes about your reading comprehension. Anyway, that’s all I’m going to say on the topic. You will not goad me again to debate you.
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March 29, 2022 at 8:22 am
“i see you didnt disprove my point because you cant.”
Except that I did. I pointed out that you’re using a straw man fallacy, and it’s a straw man because I never claimed that knowing what is going to happen means God is making it happen. I’m arguing that the BIBLE ITSELF claims God plans everything. I’m also saying that if God is all knowing and all powerful, then the logical consequence of that is that he deliberately chose this particular universe to create out of a potentially infinite number of universes he must surely be able to imagine. Do you really not see how your statement doesn’t address my argument at all?
So I’ll ask you one more time: do you have ANY credible refutation of my claim?
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March 29, 2022 at 8:59 am
“God has foreknowledge because we are following a prepared script He wrote.”
That’s not exactly what I’m saying. Please pay attention to the nuance. I’m saying that IF God is all knowing, then by definition his mind must be aware of an infinite number of worlds with every possible combination of results and histories. He could easily imagine a world where, say, you become an atheist and I become a theist, right? After all, if you and I can imagine it, surely God can too. And out of that infinite variety of worlds imagined in his all-knowing mind, THIS is the one he chose to create…the one where almost everything goes wrong and the vast majority of humanity ends up burning in hell. It didn’t have to be this way, because he could have chosen to create one of the worlds he can imagine where everyone makes the RIGHT decisions. Notice that I’m not saying foreknowledge means we are following a script he wrote, but that he CHOSE to create the world with THIS history.
See the difference? One is about God just creating a world with a bunch of initial conditions and then just watching it play out (while knowing in advance how it will play out), while the other is about having an infinite variety of choices and deliberately choosing to create of the worlds where everything goes wrong.
Now, couple that with those dozens of biblical passages I provided that either imply or outright say God plans everything, and we have multiple lines of evidence in support of my conclusion. You don’t have to agree with it, of course, nor do I expect you to, and that’s why I am asking you and the other believers to reveal any flaw in my reasoning. I’m perfectly willing to accept a credible, cogent argument.
But if you just want to continue to misrepresent my argument and resort to straw man and ad hominem fallacies, know that you are wasting an opportunity to not only destroy an anti-theist argument, but to provide an argument that could influence any fence-sitter who might read this thread. Why make yourself appear belligerent and petty when you have a chance to be persuasive? Let me remind you again:
1 Peter 3:15
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
Do you really want the atheist to better represent 1 Peter 3:15 than the Christian?
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March 29, 2022 at 9:19 am
“if man didnt fall, Adam had to choose to disobey=free will, the whole bible crashes and burns. and in all my years ive never seen/heard any argument based in logic and reason that we dont have free will. so that’s why people like derekmathais use logical fallacies because they cant prove us wrong.”
And this is another fallacy, called shifting the burden of proof. YOU are the one claiming that free will exists, therefore the burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate this. It’s clear we all have the PERCEPTION of free will, but so do characters represented in novels and movies, but all of their actions are scripted. If free will exists, and it is the critical foundation upon which the Bible rests, as you noted, then how can one account for the fact that the Bible never claims we have free will? Or that it repeatedly says in multiple ways that God plans everything?
But my argument doesn’t even depend on whether or not free will exists. With or without free will, if CHOICE exists then it must be possible for a person to do a particular act or not do that particular act. And even if free will exists, it must be possible to imagine a world where one choice is made, and another world where the other choice is made. God could have chosen to create either of the two worlds. So you see, God still plans EVERYTHING by choosing a world to create, regardless of whether or not free will exists. Thus, I’m arguing FOR God planning everything, not AGAINST free will, since free will is irrelevant here.
There’s also the question of whether an all knowing being can have free will if he already knows his entire future. After all, if he could change his mind and do something different in the future, he would already know about that change in the past, and thus wouldn’t be able to change his future. But that is an example of something that would send this discussion off into the weeds again, so I’m not going to argue that point.
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March 29, 2022 at 9:21 am
“You will not goad me again to debate you.”
That’s what I thought. You didn’t address the issue and thus you have given me your answer. Thank you.
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March 29, 2022 at 9:32 am
“People like Derek call “disagreeing with their (i)llogical arguments” an attack on their character. They are very thin-skinned. They can dish it out but then they start whining if they get a little dished back at them. Then they quote verses out of the Bible to lecture us about turning the other cheek.”
Ah, but you didn’t provide any argument for why my point is illogical, you just attacked my character. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest (because contrary to your claim, I’m about as thick-skinned as they come), but I did want to point out that you never provided the answer I was requesting, and that resorting to fallacies is not a valid argument.
I’ve been nothing but calm and reasonable in this thread, despite your hostility. The reason I provided those Bible verses was to hopefully get everyone to behave reasonably. As you are a Christian, I would think those quotes should resonate with you.
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March 29, 2022 at 11:48 am
derkmathias………. lmao —- the burden of proof is not on me and you are the one deflecting not me.
lol …….. according to you —- you used the bible to disprove free will but i proved using the bible we do have free will. and as i also proved even if you could prove God scripted an event that doesnt disprove God allows free will.
lol …….. now if you want me to prove we have free will w/o using the bible google away for the evidence. but briefly the evidence is we can overcome our animal instincts by choosing not to give in to them. but you cant disprove we dont have free will you can only make a silly argument some animals also exhibit this behavior.
lol ………. again with your silly “imagine a world” argument. then if that is your argument not only have you proven it’s you that’s changed/shifted the topic but you are using faulty arguments.
lol ………… now that argument is easy to refute:
1) God by definition has free will so He can chose not to make your silly world and make the one He did where we have free will.
2) if God made your silly world where we dont have free will —- then there’s no need for man to have left the garden. God wouldnt have given man the choice to disobey and this world would be a paradise of fleshbots doing whatever God wanted.
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March 29, 2022 at 12:28 pm
Hi Paul Vander Voort!
Please forgive me for not replying to your comment to you comment on March 26….I am so behind on my emails.
Paul, I agree with all you say and now that my inbox is filled with a continual drippings of DerekMathias comments, I find myself truly wanting to attack his character……mainly by asking “Derek, do you even have a life?”
All you do Derek is argue and feud. All you want to do is prove people wrong to make yourself to look superior by posting thesis-length comments that nobody cares about.
The fact that you want to disprove God Himself is a very wrong road to travel…….but YOU CHOSE IT and you WILL face the consequences.
Remember Derek, YOU CHOSE to reject GOD…….YOUR choice, not HIS, not Paul’s and not Scalia’s….it’s YOUR choice and you will live eternally with that choice of YOURS.
And since you do not believe in God, Heaven or Hell, then you should not be offended by what I just said.
Good bye Derek.
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March 30, 2022 at 1:40 pm
Elaine, no worries. for some reason im not getting notifications any more from this site — i mustve deleted something so i also got behind not even mentioning all of the other cre cre things going on in the world.
i used to have the same problem with people like him until i realized they are under “the strong delusion” the bible mentions. these people are lie protectors not truth seekers and unless you enjoy arguing with them it’s best to just ignore them.
see they are doing anything and everything to try and argue God doesnt exist and as ALL sane people know you cant disprove the existence of God you can only disprove the god that someone worships is not God. “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” notice it doesnt say I’m not God. so he’s not a fool for saying my God isnt God —- he’s a fool for saying there’s no God. this is ALL by chance not design.
here they just use the faulty argument we dont have free will so God doesnt exist.
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April 13, 2022 at 7:40 am
“the burden of proof is not on me and you are the one deflecting not me.”
Sorry, but the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person making the claim. You claim free will exists? Then you are the one who must demonstrate that. I’m saying that the biblical evidence that free will exists is lacking, and that the Bible states over and over again that God plans EVERYTHING. I’ve provided you with my evidence. If you still claim free will exists, the burden of proof is on you.
“you used the bible to disprove free will but i proved using the bible we do have free will. and as i also proved even if you could prove God scripted an event that doesnt disprove God allows free will.”
What you said was “knowing what is going to happen doesn’t mean God is making it happen. may be a strawman but it’s correct — now that disproves many that say we dont have free will.” That doesn’t disprove the notion that free will doesn’t exist. It’s just a way to explain how free will COULD exist in the context of an all-knowing, all-powerful God ASSUMING no evidence to the contrary. But since I provided to you actual biblical evidence stating that God plans everything–not just some things, but “everything”–your claim is irrelevant. Evidence always trumps arguments.
If that’s not clear enough, then here’s an analogy: You and I see an unmoving body. I show you the person’s death certificate and demonstrate how there’s no heartbeat or brain activity. You claim he COULD just be sleeping. Except that I showed you the death certificate and lack of vital signs. Do you see how your claim is not “proof” the person is just sleeping?
“now if you want me to prove we have free will w/o using the bible google away for the evidence.”
I’ve not found any credible counters to my argument. The only thing anyone so far has managed to do is point out that the Bible states many times that we must make the right choices.
“but briefly the evidence is we can overcome our animal instincts by choosing not to give in to them.”
How is that an example of free will? Are you aware that many animals that do not have free will can overcome their instincts by choosing not to give in to them? There are hundreds of videos like this showing dogs resisting taking food: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28EV6k9611g. Even fish and less intelligent species have demonstrated the ability to learn and avoid acting instinctively. Unless, of course, you want to claim that most animal species have free will. But then that would make humans no different than other animals as far as free will is concerned.
But this is all irrelevant and you’re just evading my question here. I’m not saying free will doesn’t exist, I’m saying that IF the BIBLE is telling the truth when it actively states that God plans everything, including our very steps, THEN free will cannot exist. So even if you claim you have evidence of free will existing, all you’re doing is contradicting what the Bible says.
So I’ll ask you once again: Are any of the points I made in my original post wrong, and if so how? If not, then what other conclusion can there be than that we are merely God’s puppets with only the ILLUSION of free will?
“again with your silly “imagine a world” argument. then if that is your argument not only have you proven it’s you that’s changed/shifted the topic but you are using faulty arguments.”
So what you’re telling me in so many words is that you have no rational argument against my claim.
“1) God by definition has free will so He can chose not to make your silly world and make the one He did where we have free will.”
None of what you said there addresses the notion of whether an all-knowing being can have free will if he already knows exactly how he will behave in every situation forever. He can’t change his mind and do something else, because BY DEFINITION he would know he will change his mind and thus know that he will do that other thing.
“2) if God made your silly world where we dont have free will —- then there’s no need for man to have left the garden. God wouldnt have given man the choice to disobey and this world would be a paradise of fleshbots doing whatever God wanted.”
I addressed that in my original post. To repeat: “It’s clear we have the perception of free will…but evidently that is just an illusion. So how would this work? As an analogy, it’s like God is a writer and we are the characters in his novel. We THINK we have free will and that all our thoughts and actions are ours to make, but the reality is that the writer plans EVERYTHING that happens, both in thought and action. (The difference is, characters in a novel can’t actually suffer, and thus there is no harm in having horrible things happen to them.)” So that would mean God WANTED Adam and Eve to fail and leave the garden, and that’s why he chose to create THIS world, where he KNEW they would fail.
You seem to be doing your utmost to try to avoid answering my question, which leads me to conclude you CAN’T answer it because of cognitive dissonance. Free will is central to Christianity, yet the Bible clearly states that God plans everything. Something has to give, and it looks like you’re choosing (whether free will exists or not) to ignore the Bible in favor of the free will claim.
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April 13, 2022 at 8:21 am
“my inbox is filled with a continual drippings of DerekMathias comments, I find myself truly wanting to attack his character……mainly by asking “Derek, do you even have a life?””
Let’s see…I’ve traveled the world (and in fact just moved to Germany), learned to speak Spanish and German, written two novels and eight screenplays, co-written and illustrated a poetry book, created a new form of embossed metal art that is currently on display at an exclusive studio in Luxembourg, served as an infantry paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division, taught Thai boxing for many years, earned my degree in English and evolution science, did graduate work in science philosophy, studied and worked as a naturalist and guide in the Galapagos Islands, was one of the top SF Bay Area computer application instructors for two decades, became wealthy playing the stock market, make a bunch of YouTube videos, I’m a fitness buff…and a lot more. So yeah, I’d say I have a life (the secret was retiring early so I have the time to indulge in my interests).
“All you do Derek is argue and feud. All you want to do is prove people wrong to make yourself to look superior by posting thesis-length comments that nobody cares about.”
So I enjoy debate. I don’t mind being proven wrong, but I do my best to make sure I have arguments backed up by evidence so that rarely happens. I grew up all over the world and experienced many different cultures, including religions. I studied the Bible out of curiosity, and became appalled at many of the things in it. So I ask a lot of questions of Christians in an attempt to understand what makes them believe in Christianity despite the very clear (to me) implications about God in the Bible. Occasionally someone will make a great point and change my mind, but usually it’s the reverse.
“The fact that you want to disprove God Himself is a very wrong road to travel…….but YOU CHOSE IT and you WILL face the consequences.”
Perhaps I would be concerned about it if there were any credible evidence for the existence of God. But notice that my arguments are not about disproving God, and in fact I don’t care about doing so. My problem is with holy books (including the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, Urantia Book and others, but mostly the Bible because of its many contradictions and its dominance in US culture) that contain hypocrisy, contradictions and morally corrupt teachings. I do want to be corrected if I’m wrong about anything, but I don’t respect people who evade my questions or resort to logical fallacies.
“Remember Derek, YOU CHOSE to reject GOD…….YOUR choice, not HIS, not Paul’s and not Scalia’s….it’s YOUR choice and you will live eternally with that choice of YOURS.”
There’s a difference between rejection and lack of belief. I don’t reject God or any other gods, I simply don’t believe they exist. Do you reject the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot? Or do you just not believe they exist until there’s credible evidence for them? Rejection is an active behavior that is a choice (whether or not free will exists). Belief isn’t even a choice. If you don’t believe me, just try believing in Vishnu or Zeus for five minutes, and you’ll see that belief is not a choice. Belief is the automatic result of being convinced by sufficient evidence (and different people have different standards for evidence). I don’t believe simply because I am not convinced by the evidence (or, rather, lack thereof).
“And since you do not believe in God, Heaven or Hell, then you should not be offended by what I just said.”
I’m not at all offended. But I am fascinated by the fact that the only person attempting to respond to my question is Paul, and he’s making irrelevant straw man arguments that don’t address my question at all.
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April 13, 2022 at 8:22 am
Give it a rest Derek.
As for as myself, I have no interest in reading your long-winded comments any longer…you are wasting your time.
If you do not agree, then don’t agree.
Remember, God gives you the choice of not agreeing.
You will never change my mind with your misguided reasonings (that you have a history of posting)
Have a nice Resurrection Day and learn of it.
I truly hope one day you will come around & accept the TRUTH of Jesus Christ and the magnificent sacrifice that HE made for all of us, including you….you will be so thankful that you did.😊👍🏼
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April 13, 2022 at 8:44 am
“i used to have the same problem with people like him until i realized they are under “the strong delusion” the bible mentions. these people are lie protectors not truth seekers and unless you enjoy arguing with them it’s best to just ignore them.”
Well, if the Bible is telling the truth when it makes the following claims:
• Proverbs 16:4 THE LORD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING to its proper end—even the wicked for the day of disaster. [Note that it doesn’t say he just determines SOME things, he determines “EVERYTHING,” including what the wicked do.]
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!]
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD. [God determines the results of even seemingly random events.]
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD. HOW THEN CAN ANYONE UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN WAY?
• Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord’s hand THE KING’S HEART IS A STREAM OF WATER THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL WHO PLEASE HIM.
• Ephesians 1:5 He PREDESTINED us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
Then God is the one forcing me to have these “strong delusions.” In fact, the Bible says that too:
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet.
• 1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.
“see they are doing anything and everything to try and argue God doesnt exist and as ALL sane people know you cant disprove the existence of God you can only disprove the god that someone worships is not God. “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” notice it doesnt say I’m not God. so he’s not a fool for saying my God isnt God —- he’s a fool for saying there’s no God. this is ALL by chance not design.”
I’m not arguing that God doesn’t exist, so you’re making a straw man argument. I’m arguing about contradictions, hypocrisy and repugnant morality in the Bible. I’m quite well aware that one cannot disprove the existence of all gods, simply because it’s impossible to disprove a universal negative. It is, however, possible to use contradictory claims made about a deity to prove the deity cannot exist AS CLAIMED. And I’ve done that for various gods, including the God of the Bible. For example, either the Bible is wrong about God planning everything, or free will doesn’t exist. It makes no difference whether I believe in or don’t believe in free will or the existence of God in order to note that contradiction in the Bible.
“here they just use the faulty argument we dont have free will so God doesnt exist.”
Since I’m not arguing that we don’t have free will, only that the Bible says God plans everything, you’re making another straw man argument. If you don’t understand something about atheists or my arguments, you can always ask me rather than resort to some narrative about atheists that doesn’t fit with reality.
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April 13, 2022 at 9:09 am
“Give it a rest Derek.”
Hmm…you asked some questions and I answered. Apparently it’s okay for you to respond to my comments, but you don’t think I should respond to yours? How does that make sense?
“As for as myself, I have no interest in reading your long-winded comments any longer…you are wasting your time.”
That’s okay. You’re not the only one who reads these comments.
“Remember, God gives you the choice of not agreeing.
You will never change my mind with your misguided reasonings (that you have a history of posting)”
Well, if you believe that God gives US the choice of not agreeing, rather than HIM making the choices for us and only giving us the illusion of us making the choice, then please provide some evidence for that claim. I’ve provided you with the evidence that God plans everything. If you believe the Bible is true, then that should be taken into consideration in your answer.
“Have a nice Resurrection Day and learn of it.”
I’ve studied the Bible in several versions, so I’m familiar with it.
“I truly hope one day you will come around & accept the TRUTH of Jesus Christ and the magnificent sacrifice that HE made for all of us, including you….you will be so thankful that you did.”
Sacrifice? What sacrifice? You know the Bible says Jesus came back to life more powerful than before, right? If you give up something but get it right back, it’s not a sacrifice. Sacrifice means giving up something permanently. Jesus was tortured to death, sure, but that’s happened to lots of people who aren’t lauded for it. And God REQUIRED humanity to kill Jesus in order to forgive us. I don’t know about you, but God sacrificing himself to himself in order to save us from himself doesn’t make much sense to me.
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April 13, 2022 at 3:05 pm
derekmathias ………… lol, you just keep proving how delusional you are. none of those verses disprove God can know the future and allow us free will + even if you proved the bible breaks the “Law of Contradictions” youve given no evidence that disproves “God.” because you cant oh delusional one —- all you could ever do is prove the “god” of the bible is not “God.”
lol ……. so even if you had a verse that clearly says/appears to say God over ruled some ones free will so His will could be done, like 2 of the most mentioned above, that doesnt prove God is making them do His will. and as our side has shown —- if God wanted His will done and we didnt have free will ………. God wouldnt have allowed Adam or Eve to disobey and we’d all still be in the garden.
lol ………… your ignorance makes me lmao —– your theology is laughable. you do what all reprobates do — take our correct interpretation of the bible then twist and pervert it and say we are wrong ………. showing yourself to be the fool you are. your silly argument is easily refuted —— a pre-incarnate Christ down graded to become Jesus. even after the Resurrection when He received His glorified body and was able to use His Divine powers again —– He wasnt “more powerful” than before the Incarnation.
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April 13, 2022 at 3:26 pm
derekmathias ………….. lol ………. that’s exactly what you are doing —- arguing God doesnt exist. so you admit God exists but you are really arguing the god of the bible isnt God ? or you think God could exist but there’s no evidence proving His existence ? or something else ? but even if you answer that in the best light that makes you look less delusional only a fool would say this, our universe, is ALL by chance. you are admitting you are closed minded and a fool because based on our scientific laws there has to be a 1st cause outside of time, space, material.
lol ……….. so you are arguing “the strong delusion” proves that person doesnt have free will ? but you ignore the context ……. is that person a child of God ie. wheat/sheep or a child of satan tares/goats ? did they have free will to believe the lie ie. the reason why God sent them a strong delusion ?
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April 13, 2022 at 3:43 pm
Paul, you are right in all that you said to Derek. You hit it right on the nail.
Fact is, if we submit our trust and love towards God, as the good everlasting Father that He is (Isaiah 9:6) He graciously sets out a path for us to travel….a path of righteousness, productivity, holiness, joy and love.
At any time we are free to go off that path and do our own thing….why?…because we are not programmed robots…..we are freewill agents and we are led by His love & wisdom if we choose to follow it.
I do not want to stray from His path because I love Him so much!
I love His Word and I am forever grateful for the sacrifice He made for our salvation………why would I want to choose to walk away from Jesus, even though I have the choice to do so?
It’s so comical how Derek has to list all of his accomplishments in life…….HOW DOES THAT EVEN pertain to this discussion??????
IF IT IS TRUE that he was a paratrooper, then I applaud him for that, speaking as a military mom myself…..but other than that, how do we even know he is telling the truth? I’d like to see proof of all of his bragging…..but then again, I really don’t care….it does not apply to this topic or to my life.
FACT IS, Paul when I first started reading his claims of accomplishments, I thought it was YOUR posting about YOU, UNTIL I came across the word “evolution” and then I realized that it was Derek speaking.
So I also ask the question, “does Derek even have a life??? I mean WHY does he waste time on THIS platform trying to lecture Christians how they should think & believe? He needs to find his own group of like-minded atheists and talk his nonsense with them.
Anyway, thanks again Paul, thanks for your comments!!!
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April 14, 2022 at 1:16 pm
Elaine …….. thanks and TbtG i find comments from people like derekmathias hilarious or else their stupidity would drive me crazy.
see their reprobate minds take a verse about God guiding our steps — twist and pervert that so it means God is actually controlling us not guiding/inspiring us so they can make a silly/false argument that means God doesnt exist.
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April 23, 2022 at 12:50 am
“none of those verses disprove God can know the future and allow us free will + even if you proved the bible breaks the “Law of Contradictions” youve given no evidence that disproves “God.” because you cant oh delusional one —- all you could ever do is prove the “god” of the bible is not “God.””
Okay, so you’re essentially saying that God DOES give us free will, and when the Bible says he plans EVERYTHING, even our very steps, it’s not telling the truth, right? But then if you believe free will exists because of something you read in the Bible, how can you trust THAT part is true when THIS part isn’t?
“so even if you had a verse that clearly says/appears to say God over ruled some ones free will so His will could be done, like 2 of the most mentioned above, that doesnt prove God is making them do His will.”
Now that’s interesting. You’re saying that even if God overrules someone’s free will, he’s not making that person do his will? You do realize that is a self-contradictory statement, right? Unless, of course, you’re claiming God overrules people’s will with somebody else’s will? Like whose? Satan’s?
“and as our side has shown —- if God wanted His will done and we didnt have free will ………. God wouldnt have allowed Adam or Eve to disobey and we’d all still be in the garden.”
Sorry, but that argument doesn’t work either. If we assume that God exists and that he’s evil, do you think he would have a problem with setting up Adam and Eve in a no-win situation just so he could blame THEM for sin and then use that as an excuse to blame all of humanity from then on, with the only way out being to worship God?
On the other hand, if we assume God exists and that he’s good, then his omniscience means he KNEW with 100% certainty that Adam and Eve would fail his “test,” yet he did absolutely NOTHING to prevent the inevitable from happening to people he supposedly loved. By comparison, if you knew with 100% certainty that throwing your own children into a cage with a ravenous tiger would result in their horrible deaths, yet you tossed them in anyway and just just sat back and watched the carnage, you would be at fault for their deaths, right? How would God setting up A&E to fail significantly different? If that’s something a good God would do, then the term “good” loses all meaning.
“your ignorance makes me lmao —– your theology is laughable. you do what all reprobates do — take our correct interpretation of the bible then twist and pervert it and say we are wrong”
I think you must be projecting about your own theology. You claim free will exists even though the Bible clearly states over and over again that God plans everything we do. Then you say that God overriding our will is not him making us do his will. And then you refuse to acknowledge that God had to have KNOWN that he was deliberately setting up A&E to fail unless he changed things in some way, yet he did nothing at all to stop that train wreck. And you say MY understanding of theology is laughable, even though you repeatedly contradict yourself? You say I’M twisting the words of the Bible, even though it is YOU who is ignoring and twisting all the scripture that clearly contradicts your claims? Wow. Well, you keep attributing false claims to me, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
“a pre-incarnate Christ down graded to become Jesus. even after the Resurrection when He received His glorified body and was able to use His Divine powers again —– He wasnt “more powerful” than before the Incarnation.”
So Jesus lost much of his power when he became incarnate, then gained them back after he died. How does that change anything I said? He still became more powerful after he died, and I’ll wager that hundreds of millions of people would willingly make that trade. It’s not a sacrifice when you don’t give something up and instead become more powerful. You see, the Bible is filled with contradictory messes like that.
You seem angry that I point such things out, as if I should keep such thoughts to myself. If Christianity is true, then it should have nothing to fear from reasonable questions about scripture.
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April 23, 2022 at 1:11 am
“ that’s exactly what you are doing —- arguing God doesnt exist. so you admit God exists but you are really arguing the god of the bible isnt God ? or you think God could exist but there’s no evidence proving His existence ? or something else ?”
No, I am NOT arguing that God doesn’t exist, only that God cannot exist AS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE. God could still exist even if the entire Bible were proved wrong, because God’s existence doesn’t depend on the accuracy of the Bible. Just as the Quran doesn’t have to be true in order for Allah to exist, or the Bhagavad-Gita doesn’t have to be true in order for Brahma to exist.
I think I’ve made it clear before that I’m an agnostic atheist. That means I’m not convinced by any of the claims that gods exist, but I do not claim that no gods exist.
“but even if you answer that in the best light that makes you look less delusional only a fool would say this, our universe, is ALL by chance. you are admitting you are closed minded and a fool because based on our scientific laws there has to be a 1st cause outside of time, space, material.”
First, atheism doesn’t mean the acceptance of any naturalistic claim for the existence of the universe. All it is is the rejection of the claim that gods exist. That’s it, nothing else. An atheist can believe the universe popped into existence out of nothing, or it formed as an inevitable consequence of quantum dynamics, or magical pixies created it, or our universe is just a computer simulation, or whatever.
Second, you can’t solve an unknown by appealing to another unknown. Claiming God exists is just an appeal to an even greater mystery than why the universe exists. The only rational answer is “we don’t know what caused the universe to come into existence.” Science gives us some hints based on highly successful theories in physics and mathematics, but hints are not enough to claim any kind of certainty.
“so you are arguing “the strong delusion” proves that person doesnt have free will ? but you ignore the context ……. is that person a child of God ie. wheat/sheep or a child of satan tares/goats ? did they have free will to believe the lie ie. the reason why God sent them a strong delusion ?”
I’m saying the passage makes a clear case that God is willing and able to lie (or at least make people believe lies). After all, would those people believe “strong delusions” if God HADN’T sent them those delusions? Why send them if they would believe anyway? That makes no sense. God makes people believe lies, that much is clear.
But belief is not a choice. Nobody can CHOOSE to believe anything (even though we colloquially use the phrase all the time). Belief is the INEVITABLE consequence of unconscious psychological processes that are beyond our control. You must know this to be true…but if not, try believing in Santa Claus for five full minutes, or just try to NOT believe in God for five minutes. It doesn’t work, right? Because belief is not a choice. It’s not a free will issue at all.
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April 23, 2022 at 1:36 am
“ At any time we are free to go off that path and do our own thing….why?…because we are not programmed robots…..we are freewill agents and we are led by His love & wisdom if we choose to follow it.”
Okay, then you to are saying that the Bible is lying when it says God plans everything, including our very steps. You could have simply stated that earlier, but thank you for the clarification.
“It’s so comical how Derek has to list all of his accomplishments in life…….HOW DOES THAT EVEN pertain to this discussion??????”
It doesn’t. You asked me a question and I answered it. You do realize that’s how questioning and answering work, right? If you hadn’t wanted an answer to a question that doesn’t even pertain to this discussion, then WHY ASK IT?
“IF IT IS TRUE that he was a paratrooper, then I applaud him for that, speaking as a military mom myself…..but other than that, how do we even know he is telling the truth? I’d like to see proof of all of his bragging…..but then again, I really don’t care….it does not apply to this topic or to my life.”
See, now you say you’d like to see proof that I’m telling the truth…and then you say you don’t care to know. Which is it? I’m happy to provide you with the relevant links if you want.
“So I also ask the question, “does Derek even have a life??? I mean WHY does he waste time on THIS platform trying to lecture Christians how they should think & believe? He needs to find his own group of like-minded atheists and talk his nonsense with them.”
Okay, so should I answer THIS question, or are you just being rhetorical again? Well, I’ll answer it: I read the Bible in multiple versions, having been told it was God’s word. I expected to find enlightenment, but instead I found a God committing or condoning virtually all the behaviors I (and almost everyone else) consider evil: murder and genocide, slavery, torture, rape, child and animal abuse, force incest, cannibalism, theft, betrayal, lying, etc. So I read through it from the perspective of an evil God, and suddenly all the contradictory and confusing parts made perfect sense. I present my observations to Christians such as yourself in order to see if there are reasonable refutations of my claims or whether my arguments are accurate. So far, I’ve yet to have any rational refutations of my claims, so clearly I’m on the right track.
But the apparent lack of self-reflection and critical thinking among you is…astounding.
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April 23, 2022 at 10:40 am
Hi Derek,
I am trying to figure out why you come to this platform and post endless comments that nobody really reads.
If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the one true GOD, then why not go find like-minded atheists on an atheist platform who you can agree with, and you guys can chit-chat back & forth there?
You say you also disagree with Islam, Hinduism and other religions……..well, OK that’s your right, and I disagree with them as well……BUT I have too much to live for and I’m far too busy to locate their platforms and argue with them………such a waste of time.
Are you so full of yourself that you actually believe that you can persuade any of us to deny Jesus Christ and the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures?
You are no match for our experiences with the LORD,
So why do you try to dictate how others should believe?
I may skim your comments, but for the most part, I only see how SO very lengthy they are and I shake my head and roll my eyes.
Why do you waste your time here Derek?
You really don’t have to reply to me on any of these questions, I really just want you to think about it.
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April 23, 2022 at 11:26 am
derekmathias, lmao ………. finally you said something intelligent but you screw it up by twisting and perverting it.
of course the God of the bible can exist …… can God use non-literal language to explain to early bronze age people how He created the world they live in a way that they can understand while giving them all of the facts/lessons they need to know ? yes. so you take the creation account to disprove the God of the bible while believing there is a 1st cause ?
lol ………. see you do it again —- God doesnt give His children (ie wheat/sheep) a strong delusion, He gives the children of the devil (ie tares/goats) a strong delusion. and even though in stories like the lying spirit your interpretation misses the point — the king still had free will to go or not to go. if not the there’s no need to convince the king to go ………… God wouldve just made him go.
lol ………. you keep ignoring your problem — if this is a play already written where we have to follow the script, ie just puppets dancing on God’s strings, your worldview crashes and burns not mine.
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April 23, 2022 at 11:43 am
derekmathias, lol ………. i dont have my brother Mark’s communication skills (family joke) but it’s very clear what i said —- there isnt any contradiction saying God can know the future w/o making it happen. that’s because based on the only possible option of creation — a 1st cause …….. that 1st cause has to exist outside of space, time and the material. if you exist outside of time you’ll know the future.
lol ………. then because you can disprove the God of the bible you have to fabricate proof/evidence He is false. and you do that by twisting and perverting verses to say God is controlling us we dont have free will when they can also be interpreted as i said —- God is guiding us. so — we read the bible and see His path and then choose to follow His path ……….. that’s free will but could sound like controlling when written down. but again —- your big problem if God controlled us …… mankind could not go against His will —- we’d still be in the garden of eden.
lol ……….. sure it changes what you said —- because before the Incarnation He wasnt bound by His “human nature.” you argue from the bible but pervert what the bible says —- just like all reprobates do.
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April 23, 2022 at 4:16 pm
GREAT COMMENTS PAUL!!!
I don’t know, maybe I’m simple minded, but all I have to do is do is see the face of a newborn baby, or look up at the stars, or a rose in bloom, or how veggies and even mighty trees grow from a tiny little seed…….or look through a microscope or telescope and I KNOW there is a CREATOR.
How about the ancient prophesies of the Bible being fulfilled to the tiniest detail…….. there is no doubt, there IS a Creator and His Name is Jesus the Messiah,
Paul, I wish Derek would put aside his arrogance & pride and have a little humility and inquire of the Lord. There might still be hope,..at least I hope so.
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April 23, 2022 at 6:57 pm
Elaine ………. you are right minded. im sure there’s probably many things we disagree on but you can see the point even though you may not come to the same conclusion as me. but this is one of those topics where ive never seen a theist disagree with me.
people like derekmathias are wrong minded — he cant see there is no contradiction with God knowing the future and allowing us free will. and cant admit — if God was controlling us He never would have allowed us to leave the garden.
all those people can do is ignore ALL of the evidence that proves them wrong and twist and pervert other bible verses into supporting their position. then say — you cant prove God exists. but what they really are saying is you cant prove God exists to me.
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April 27, 2022 at 7:05 am
“I am trying to figure out why you come to this platform and post endless comments that nobody really reads.”
Simple. It’s an opportunity enter discussion with people of different mindsets, and to test various arguments. I’m actually on many platforms for the same reasons.
“If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the one true GOD, then why not go find like-minded atheists on an atheist platform who you can agree with, and you guys can chit-chat back & forth there?”
I do that too, but you don’t expand your horizons but sticking to a community bubble.
“You say you also disagree with Islam, Hinduism and other religions……..well, OK that’s your right, and I disagree with them as well……BUT I have too much to live for and I’m far too busy to locate their platforms and argue with them………such a waste of time.”
It’s not a waste of time if you’re genuinely interested in how other people think and whether their beliefs have merit.
“Are you so full of yourself that you actually believe that you can persuade any of us to deny Jesus Christ and the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures?”
To date I have received 81 messages and posts from former believers who said my arguments help persuade them to lose their belief (I’ve collected the texts and can make them available to you, if you’d like). And who knows how many more were persuaded but never chose to let me know? Could it happen to anyone here? Perhaps, although it’s a pretty small pool of people. But de-converting people isn’t my objective; I’m much more interested understanding what people believe and why, and how well they can justify that belief. And if they have weak answers, I point that out.
“You are no match for our experiences with the LORD,”
I’m sure that’s what many believers think.
“So why do you try to dictate how others should believe?”
I don’t. I’ve never told anyone here what to believe. But I do like to help people learn to think critically, regardless of how they may use it. It’s an important life skill.
“I may skim your comments, but for the most part, I only see how SO very lengthy they are and I shake my head and roll my eyes.”
That’s okay. There are always lurkers who do find the comments engaging enough to read.
“Why do you waste your time here Derek?”
I hope I’ve answered that question to your satisfaction.
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April 27, 2022 at 7:55 am
“of course the God of the bible can exist …… can God use non-literal language to explain to early bronze age people how He created the world they live in a way that they can understand while giving them all of the facts/lessons they need to know ? yes. so you take the creation account to disprove the God of the bible while believing there is a 1st cause ?”
What does that have to do with anything? You claimed I’m trying to argue that God doesn’t exist. I made it clear that’s not my intent when I stated “No, I am NOT arguing that God doesn’t exist, only that God cannot exist AS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE. God could still exist even if the entire Bible were proved wrong, because God’s existence doesn’t depend on the accuracy of the Bible.” And yet once more you fall back on the same false claim when you say “you take the creation account to disprove the God of the bible while believing there is a 1st cause.” How many times must I state it? I’m not trying to prove God doesn’t exist.
And I’ve no idea why you claim I believe there is a first cause. I’ve never made such an unsupportable statement. We have no evidence for a first cause. And we can’t even assume a first cause, since there are known processes that occur with no evident cause (radioactive decay, for example, or the appearance of quantum particles).
“God doesnt give His children (ie wheat/sheep) a strong delusion, He gives the children of the devil (ie tares/goats) a strong delusion.”
I thought God supposedly created ALL life.
“and even though in stories like the lying spirit your interpretation misses the point — the king still had free will to go or not to go. if not the there’s no need to convince the king to go ………… God wouldve just made him go.”
The point is that God is willing and able to lie–to get people to believe falsehoods. That’s what a lie is.
“you keep ignoring your problem — if this is a play already written where we have to follow the script, ie just puppets dancing on God’s strings, your worldview crashes and burns not mine.”
Well, I think I’ve explained the whole “infinite universes problem for God” argument enough times that if you can’t grasp it by now, you probably never will. Still, I’ll give it one more shot from a somewhat different perspective:
God was about to create the universe. To simplify things, let’s say he was trying to decide between two universe options (instead of from an infinite variety of possible universes): one where almost everyone ends up using their free will to made the wrong choices (that’s our universe), and one where everyone ends up using their free will to make the right choices (if choice exists at all, then it must be possible to imagine such a universe). God could have created either one just as easily (assuming he’s actually all powerful), so there was nothing stopping him from choosing to create the universe where his foreknowledge told him everyone would happen to make the right decisions. But he didn’t do that. He chose to create the universe where he KNEW everything would go wrong. That means he is the one responsible for all evil.
To give you an analogy, imagine a computer engineer designing an artificial intelligence program for a company’s intranet (if it helps, imagine the technology is advanced enough that he’s able to design his A.I. with free will, although the problem remains whether free will exists or not). He runs two different versions of the A.I. in simulation first, so he knows with 100% certainty how both A.I.s will turn out (thus giving him foreknowledge). One A.I. always makes the same bad decisions in every simulation, but the other always makes the right decisions in every simulation. The engineer chooses to release the bad A.I. on the company’s intranet, and it goes on to make the same bad decisions that it made in the simulation, which ultimately destroys the company. Who was at fault in this scenario? Even with A.I. with free will, it’s the ENGINEER who is at fault, because he chose WHICH A.I. to release.
If you still don’t get it, well, I’m sorry I can’t make it much clearer.
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April 27, 2022 at 9:38 am
derekmathias ………. lmao —- that is the purpose of your arguments to prove God doesnt exist you even admit it’s to prove the God of the bible is a false god. we dont make a distinction because it’s impossible to prove the God of the bible isnt God. there arent any major problems like some beliefs that god is a snake and he laid an egg that became the universe. only manufactured problems from people like you.
lol ………… if you think God could exist then all of your comments prove you are more foolish than i first believed. and if you believe there’s not a first cause then you just proved you are as foolish as i first believed.
lol ………… sure we do and it’s because of the scientific laws that order our universe. these facts are clearly documented in our apologetics which you ignore. that means the only logical and reasonable thing for you to say is the 1st cause we call God is not a personal God.
lol ……… your whole infinite universe is only a problem for God in your reprobate mind as i stated before which again you didnt give evidence why God has to create anything He doesnt want to while you ignore He’s solved ALL of the problems we created in this one.
lol …….. the person that decides to do evil is responsible oh delusional one not God. the only choice of creating is for us to have free will or we couldnt choose to love and obey God.
lol ……….. that’s a stupid analogy because there’s a 3rd choice —- you create it with free will and the ability to learn from it’s mistakes.
lol ……….. so do you now admit God can know the future while we have free will or are you sticking to the undefendable position that’s impossible ? because in all of the stupidly youve spewed here you still havent made even a bad argument why we are wrong. see this is why ilol at fools like you —- you have to prove all the time every time the bible says we dont have free will. and the context of the test in the garden is clear …….. Adam had to have free will or he couldnt choose to disobey. since he was cast out of the garden he disobeyed and if he didnt have free will God wouldnt have given him the choice — just like your moronic example where he always had to chose correctly.
lol ……… i get you are cre cre —- you sadly are the one that doesnt get it or even see how dumb your comments are.
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April 28, 2022 at 2:30 pm
@Sister Elaine. Derek comes to forums like this because he likes to make fun of Christians. Most Christians are not philosophically erudite, so they’re easily tripped up by his fallacious arguments due to their not being trained to handle them. Just check out Derek’s YouTube channel to see how he delights in making fun of ignorant Christians.
As his posts here demonstrate beyond ambiguity, he is definitely not interested in the truth. When he commits a logical error, he refuses to acknowledge it and deflects by counterattacking. He’s so obsessed with proving his mental superiority that he at times will forget what he is arguing and end up attacking his own position He makes statements about what Christians believe which exposes the fact that he hasn’t made the slightest effort to find out what they really believe (because his assumptions are way off). He will then attack you personally and when you give him a taste of his own medicine, he will accuse you of initiating the acerbity! And as I’ve shown, I’m very happy to link to the “debates” I’ve had with him (see above) as proof. They speak for themselves.
So, I think the bottom line is to simply ignore him. Otherwise, as the last “debate” shows, you will post and post and post and post until the thread is hundreds of posts long. The guy runs a blog and a YouTube page with a fan base. He’s got too much skin in the game to have the integrity to admit simple errors. His image is too important to acknowledge a mistake lest it upset his psychological balance. He’s got to maintain the fiction that he’s thought everything through and that his arguments are invincible. The guy saves the texts of people he’s “converted” and counts them!! People who do that betray a psychological need for validation. He brandishes them as some triumphant testament to his debating prowess.
Take, for example, all his so-called “proofs” for biblical determinism. His lack of research has led him to make obvious fundamental errors in exegesis, but why in the world would I attempt to show them to him? In our two debates, he made some very OBVIOUS logical missteps, and he fought tooth and nail to deny them. There’s not a snowball’s chance in you-know-where that I’ll go through that with every one of his so-called prooftexts. It’s a complete waste of time, and I have no interest in another 400-post debate with the likes of him. So, for the most part, I’m content to leave him alone.
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April 28, 2022 at 2:41 pm
Hi Scalia, Wow, what a boatload of information you gave me……..and you are 100% right in all you said!
Just like the Bible warns us about not engaging with fools, lest we become like them…I have learned my lesson.
I just looked him up on YouTube and is he the Derek Mathias with the staggering NINE subscribers????
He must be banking at least $5.00 a year….very impressive.🤪
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April 28, 2022 at 4:18 pm
@Sister Elaine,
No, that’s not his channel. Look for “Underlings.” He has 14K subscribers.
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April 28, 2022 at 5:19 pm
OK, thanks so much Bro Scalia! “Underlings??”
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April 28, 2022 at 5:55 pm
Scalia, I saw both of his short videos and I can see how his words could confuse & cause many who are not Scripturally well-versed & have a Spirit-Filled relationship with Jesus Christ, to doubt their faith in Him.
This is why us being Spirit-filled, loving the Lord with everything in us, being blood-bought and having proper discernment & reverence for the Bible is ABSOLUTELY VITAL….this is why we need the Armour of God to enable us to fight the spirit of darkness that tries to steal our faith.
Derek Mathias may or may not realize that he is an actual tool (puppet) of Satan. He purposely takes scriptures out of context and twist & turns them.
He reminds me of the serpent in Eden and when Satan tempted Jesus when He was fasting 40 days.
Derek is a deceiver, a predator and puppet and one day Derek will stand before God in judgement for the evil & confusion he has caused.
Brother Scalia, the ONLY reason he is fighting God so hard is because deep down he knows there IS a God and Derek has decided to hate the LORD and join forces with Satan.
To end this comment on a SUPER-ENCOURAGING note, please watch this….😊 “I Speak Jesus”
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May 10, 2022 at 9:34 am
Wow, I check this thread out after a couple of weeks to find it’s been really quite active. Interesting. Well, I’ll answer with the time I have available.
“that is the purpose of your arguments to prove God doesnt exist you even admit it’s to prove the God of the bible is a false god.”
Paul, why do you keep making up lies about me? Let me be perfectly clear: it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to prove the non-existence of gods because it is impossible to prove a universal negative. So why would I even try?
What I CAN do is point out inconsistent and contradictory claims made by both Christians and in the Bible. If you think my studies of the Bible have led me to false conclusions, then GREAT, please explain them. If I’ve made mistakes, I want to know so I can correct them. But if all you have to offer is assertions, ad hominems and straw man fallacies, you’re not going to convince me of anything.
“there arent any major problems like some beliefs that god is a snake and he laid an egg that became the universe. only manufactured problems from people like you.”
You can make ANY religion sound silly if you want. For instance, Christianity can be summed up as “The belief that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.” People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones….
“if you think God could exist then all of your comments prove you are more foolish than i first believed.”
I’ve seen no convincing arguments for the claim that any gods exist, although my reading of the Bible has convinced me that Yahweh cannot exist *as literally described in the Bible.* However, if one accepts the possibility that the Bible is a product of humans trying to explain the universe instead of some divinely inspired literal truth, then that makes Yahweh unfalsifiable and thus he cannot be disproved. But claiming the Bible is the true word of God? That’s just not plausible on so many levels.
“and if you believe there’s not a first cause then you just proved you are as foolish as i first believed.”
When did I EVER say I don’t believe there is a first cause? We have no credible evidence for the existence of ANY first cause, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. It just means there is no rational justification for picking a belief. There is nothing wrong with admitting “we don’t know.” Lacking belief in something does NOT mean one necessarily believes in the alternative.
“sure we do and it’s because of the scientific laws that order our universe. these facts are clearly documented in our apologetics which you ignore. that means the only logical and reasonable thing for you to say is the 1st cause we call God is not a personal God.”
You have no idea what caused our universe to form. Attempting to solve a mystery by appealing to an even greater mystery isn’t a rational solution.
“your whole infinite universe is only a problem for God in your reprobate mind as i stated before which again you didnt give evidence why God has to create anything He doesnt want to while you ignore He’s solved ALL of the problems we created in this one.”
What does that have to do with ANYTHING I said? Are you purposely trying to misrepresent everything I say? I NEVER SAID God has to create something he doesn’t want to. In fact, I’ve said the opposite: that God had to have WANTED to create THIS universe of all the possible universes he could necessarily imagine.
If you don’t pay attention to what I’ve actually said, how can you possibly expect to answer my questions with anything coherent?
“the person that decides to do evil is responsible oh delusional one not God. the only choice of creating is for us to have free will or we couldnt choose to love and obey God.”
And here you go AGAIN demonstrating that you don’t understand the problem. You keep harping on the free will thing, when I’ve pointed out that the infinite universes problem for God exists REGARDLESS of whether or not free will exists. Cognitive dissonance is capable of making someone unable to address an argument, so I won’t accuse you of lacking intelligence.
In any event, either free will exists or the Bible is not telling the truth when it makes the following claims:
• Proverbs 16:4 THE LORD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING to its proper end—even the wicked for the day of disaster.
• Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS.
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but IT IS THE LORD’S PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS.
• Proverbs 20:24 A PERSON’S STEPS ARE DIRECTED BY THE LORD. HOW THEN CAN ANYONE UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN WAY?
• Proverbs 21:1 In the Lord’s hand THE KING’S HEART IS A STREAM OF WATER THAT HE CHANNELS TOWARD ALL WHO PLEASE HIM.
• Ephesians 1:5 He PREDESTINED us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL.
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will.
• Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS.
You can’t have it both ways, not without deliberately twisting what the Bible actually says. Clearly you come down firmly on the side of free will existing, so the above passages mean the opposite of what they say, right? If the Bible is the word of God, it means God is either lying or really, REALLY bad at explaining himself. If the Bible is the word of humans, then such contradictions are to be expected.
“so do you now admit God can know the future while we have free will or are you sticking to the undefendable position that’s impossible ? because in all of the stupidly youve spewed here you still havent made even a bad argument why we are wrong. see this is why ilol at fools like you —- you have to prove all the time every time the bible says we dont have free will. and the context of the test in the garden is clear …….. Adam had to have free will or he couldnt choose to disobey. since he was cast out of the garden he disobeyed and if he didnt have free will God wouldnt have given him the choice — just like your moronic example where he always had to chose correctly.”
Like I said, you have clearly come down on the side of free will existing. I don’t have to prove anything because I’m only pointing out what appears to be a clear contradiction. Either you’re right that free will exists and the Bible contradicts you, or you’re wrong and free will doesn’t exist, as the above passages indicate. Pick one. But your argument is with the Bible, not with me.
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May 10, 2022 at 10:17 am
“Derek comes to forums like this because he likes to make fun of Christians.”
Absolutely false. What is it about you people always eager to construct lies about me? My intention is to understand what people believe and to see if they have rational justification for their beliefs. And if they don’t, I try to explain to them why. I’m not interested in making fun of people, although I’m not above it if someone says something really stupid.
“Most Christians are not philosophically erudite, so they’re easily tripped up by his fallacious arguments due to their not being trained to handle them. Just check out Derek’s YouTube channel to see how he delights in making fun of ignorant Christians.”
WHERE do I show delight in making fun of ignorant Christians? I certainly disparage bad Christian ARGUMENTS and people who make truly dumb statements, but I don’t disparage Christians per se. I have way too many good friends who are Christians to do that (they’re just not biblical literalists).
“He will then attack you personally and when you give him a taste of his own medicine, he will accuse you of initiating the acerbity! And as I’ve shown, I’m very happy to link to the “debates” I’ve had with him (see above) as proof. They speak for themselves.”
Look, Scalia, I debate and interact with a LOT of people on a variety of forums. Sometimes I mix up what someone said on one thread with something someone said on another thread. That happens, no big deal, I acknowledge it and move on. Apparently I did that to you once, and for some reason you just can’t let it go and eagerly keep directing people to that thread. I even apologized and offered a fresh start…but no, evidently you just can’t move on. Don’t be so thin-skinned, Scalia. Doesn’t your religion teach you to forgive transgressions and turn the other cheek? I’ve easily forgiven your part in that contentious argument and only ask that you do the same.
“The guy runs a blog and a YouTube page with a fan base. He’s got too much skin in the game to have the integrity to admit simple errors. His image is too important to acknowledge a mistake lest it upset his psychological balance. He’s got to maintain the fiction that he’s thought everything through and that his arguments are invincible.”
And once again you make up lies about me. It seems to me you’re projecting, since you’ve never admitted when you were wrong when you misinterpreted my infinite universes problem for God, and instead deflected to irrelevant arguments.
Yes I do have a modest fan base on a few forums, but I’m quite willing to admit if any of my arguments are wrong. It’s just that I don’t make claims I can’t support, and if I misrepresent someone’s argument by accident I admit that. All you have to do is read through the comments sections to see that.
“The guy saves the texts of people he’s “converted” and counts them!! People who do that betray a psychological need for validation. He brandishes them as some triumphant testament to his debating prowess.”
And once AGAIN you make up lies about me. The reason I collect them is for a couple reasons: First, I sometimes get posts by Christians claiming my arguments are ineffective and would never convince “true” Christians. Second, I sometimes get posts by atheists or scientifically literate people who say THE SAME THING, believing it’s pointless to engage with irrational people who can never be convinced with rational arguments. With this list of posts I can demonstrate how they’re mistaken.
“Take, for example, all his so-called “proofs” for biblical determinism. His lack of research has led him to make obvious fundamental errors in exegesis, but why in the world would I attempt to show them to him?”
Since you never addressed the problem I presented, despite my repeated attempts, and instead went on irrelevant tangents (that I should never have followed, admittedly), I’m guessing you just don’t have an answer for the problem. If you did, I’m sure you’d be quick to point it out.
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May 10, 2022 at 10:19 am
“Underlings??”
Since you phrased it as a question, I’ll answer: that’s the name of cartoon rodents I’ve drawn for many years.
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May 10, 2022 at 10:48 am
“Scalia, I saw both of his short videos and I can see how his words could confuse & cause many who are not Scripturally well-versed & have a Spirit-Filled relationship with Jesus Christ, to doubt their faith in Him.”
Check out some of the arguments I’ve had with those who ARE scripturally well-versed. I have debates with an Evangelical minister, Christian philosopher, and Mormon and JW missionaries.
“this is why we need the Armour of God to enable us to fight the spirit of darkness that tries to steal our faith.”
If you had actual evidence, you wouldn’t need faith to believe, would you?
“Derek Mathias may or may not realize that he is an actual tool (puppet) of Satan.”
I don’t believe God exists, so I certainly don’t believe Satan exists. Both characters commit atrocities in the Bible, which makes me interested in following neither of them.
“He purposely takes scriptures out of context and twist & turns them.
He reminds me of the serpent in Eden and when Satan tempted Jesus when He was fasting 40 days.”
First, I do my best to present only the most logical, face-value interpretation of scripture. I never twist it to mean the opposite of what it says (that’s what apologists do, not me).
Second, if the Bible is God’s word, and God is all knowing, does it not logically follow that he could write a book that is so clear that apologists wouldn’t be necessary because everyone would automatically understand everything it says with crystal clarity? I mean there are humans who write well enough to do that! Instead, despite Jesus’ prayer…
• John 17:20-23 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, THAT ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE—I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
• 1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ALL OF YOU AGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER in what you say and that THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT.
…there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations that all disagree (often violently) with other Christian denominations in terms of how to interpret the Bible. Of course they all claim to represent “true” Christianity, but clearly they can’t all be right. And if even Christians can’t figure out how to interpret the Bible, perhaps an atheist who reads the Bible without rose-tinted Christian glasses can do a better job.
“Derek is a deceiver, a predator and puppet and one day Derek will stand before God in judgement for the evil & confusion he has caused.”
Oof, so you’re ALSO making up lies about me. That’s three for three on this thread. Wow. You do know that the Bible has prohibitions against lying and falsely judging people, right?
“Brother Scalia, the ONLY reason he is fighting God so hard is because deep down he knows there IS a God and Derek has decided to hate the LORD and join forces with Satan.”
Again, that’s a false claim. I’ve never been a believer in ANY religion, including Christianity (although I certainly tried out a number of sects in my youth). Do you think that literally BILLIONS of Hindus, Muslims, etc. all “deep down know” that God exists, they just happen to hate God and join forces with Satan to…what, believe in other gods? And is it really so difficult for you to understand that the “evidence” presented by Christians for your religion just isn’t convincing? I find gravity inconvenient to believe, since I’d love to be able to fly…but I’m not foolish enough to claim not to believe in it while secretly doing so “deep down.” My beliefs are based on evidence.
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May 10, 2022 at 11:32 am
derekmathias ………… lmao — it’s not lying because that’s what your actions prove you are doing even though you deny it —- that’s because you have a reprobate mind and that’s what ALL reprobates do ……….. deny what they are saying contradicts them. typical example is rccult behavior — their teaching on the Incarnation says “Jesus has 2 natures united without confusion” then they call someone a heretic that shows that means you can say Mary is the mother of Jesus’ “humainty” BUT not the mother of His “Divinity.” you do the same here ……….. by inventing a silly scenario that isnt binary and then say this proves God false when i gave another possibility to your scenario that shows God is not false. but you play silly games and say that’s not what im doing that would be illogical ………. because it’s not God im giving evidence that shows He doesnt exist —- it’s the God of the bible or the God i say is God.
lol ………. if you were logical and reasonable youd admit it’s logical and reasonable to believe in a 1st cause we call God. and it’s impossible to disprove that 1st cause is the God of the bible. because the only other plausible choice is the 1st cause is not a personal God.
lol ………… because you are behaving illogically trying to disprove the God of the bible is not God. you need to re read what you wrote here.
lol ………… and for the rest of your nonsense ive already proved you are wrong —- when you provide evidence that hasnt been disproven here or by our other apologetics i’ll correct you.
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May 10, 2022 at 6:11 pm
Derek, you’re not going to goad me into another 400-post “debate.” I wasn’t talking to you and the evidence I referred to speaks for itself. You write:
No, what I said is absolutely true. I told people where to go on YouTube to verify for themselves that what I say is true. Case in point, your videos about “having fun” with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Indeed, in your introduction to your Mormon video, you said that you didn’t have anything to do and wanted to have some fun. You thus weren’t interested in getting an education; you were rather looking to flummox some soft targets. You knew good and well that the overwhelming majority of Mormon missionaries are kids who are not at all trained to argue philosophy. At best, they’re halfway competent at parroting LDS doctrine, and that’s about it. And you knew full well how silly they’d sound trying to answer questions you knew they wouldn’t be able to handle (and you knew that due to your extensive interaction with equally ignorant Christians).
You have a similar situation with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Although they canvass at all ages, and though they are very well trained to defend the particulars of their doctrine (so long as they stay on script), their disdain for philosophy (due to their misunderstanding Col. 2:8) makes them woefully unprepared to debate the topic. In fact, they make little effort to engage in apologetic debate on a formal level, so the net effect of a recording along that line will make them look silly. You are patently dishonest to deny the charge, especially when the evidence is that obvious.
If you were really interested in substantive dialog, you would try to interview a known apologist or scholar and grapple on even terms. Your picking on folks “smaller” than you shows you’re nothing but a bully.
Once?? Yeah, you’ve got memory issues, dude.
I can hardly be “projecting” when I don’t run a blog (at least a religious one) or a YouTube page. When somebody as educated as you claim to be digs in his heels over very obvious logical errors, it demonstrates an ego that won’t quit. I’ve been in plenty of debates. Honest people readily and immediately acknowledge logical faux pas because they realize they’re fallible and are motivated by truth. Guys like you who refuse to admit obvious mistakes aren’t interested in the truth; you’re only interested in your face.
By the way, that’s why I’m happy to link to the debates because it proves that I in no measure misunderstood your “infinite universes problem.” Indeed, I restated it several times (as everybody here can verify). You got so mixed up that you ended up attacking your own position!
And you really expect us to believe that? How in the world are they going to verify your claim? Even if you send them copies of their messages, anybody can make those up. Your “trophies” don’t prove anything. Just a simple claim that you’ve “converted” a significant number of Christians to agnosticism or atheism is something most people wouldn’t dispute given the dearth of education and apologetics across the Christian spectrum. The fact that you tally the results shows a belt-notching mentality. Besides, what does it matter whether a so-called Christian states that your arguments wouldn’t convince “real” Christians? Whether they have or haven’t, that claim is a red herring (look it up). I wouldn’t feel the need to rebut such a claim because it’s irrelevant to whatever discussion or debate you’re having.
You say this in reference to my remarks about your so-called biblical proofs for determinism. It looks like your penchant for fact manipulation is as significant as you imagine mine to be. I told you repeatedly in the linked debate that I would have addressed the matter if you hadn’t dug in your heels over your stupid “logical problem of evil” argument. I even reminded you more than once that my argumentative tactic was essentially the same tack you took in our first debate, and you still couldn’t get it! So, I told you that there’s not a chance in you-know-where I’m going to go through the same thing over the biblical passages you cite. This isn’t my first rodeo, Bub. Your questions don’t even bump the difficulty meter, but since I foolishly thought that our second debate would be more productive, you can forget my making that mistake again.
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May 22, 2022 at 6:14 am
“Derek, you’re not going to goad me into another 400-post “debate.””
Scalia, you could have simply answered my question in a sentence or two. Instead, you insisted you were not going to be goaded into a long debate…and then proceeded to have a long debate. What is the matter with you? Did I so traumatize you so badly that I now live rent-free in your head? If so, I’m sorry, but as the saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
But my intent was never to be antagonistic; you brought that on yourself by your confrontational demeanor, and I responded in kind. We both clearly irritated each other in that previous debate, but I was willing to move on and let bygones be bygones. I apologized for my part in the altercation and forgave you for yours. Have you forgotten you Jesus lessons? You know, the part from the sermon on the mount about turning the other cheek? It goes: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” What does it say when the atheist is more willing to forgive than the Christian is? Move on, Scalia, and just answer the question.
“Case in point, your videos about “having fun” with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
Yes, I did have fun with them. So what? Do you think one can’t honestly be interested in the point of views of people AND have fun with them? I’ve done both on occasion with you, Elaine and Paul, depending on what you’ve said. Is your world so black and white that you don’t do nuance?
“If you were really interested in substantive dialog, you would try to interview a known apologist or scholar and grapple on even terms. Your picking on folks “smaller” than you shows you’re nothing but a bully.”
So you found the videos where I had fun with Mormons and JWs who came to my home, thinking they had an easy mark, but you didn’t notice the half-dozen additional videos where I debated self-proclaimed biblical scholars and a campus minister? I certainly grappled on even terms there. And just for the record, was I EVER bullying in ANY of those debates? I went out of my way to be friendly, ESPECIALLY to the Mormons and JWs.
I’m going to assume you just weren’t paying attention or perhaps misinterpreted what I actually said and let it slide. But let me be clear: if I had made the same mistakes you just did, you would be repeatedly accusing me of being a liar and claiming I suffer from memory problems, right? After all, that seems to be a pattern with you. Now do you see how disingenuous and petty such behavior is when the shoe is on the other foot?
“I can hardly be “projecting” when I don’t run a blog (at least a religious one) or a YouTube page.”
Projecting is a psychological term which means to attribute onto others one’s own negative characteristics.
“And you really expect us to believe that?”
I honestly don’t care if you do, since I’m not trying to impress you. Somebody asked if I believed my arguments are persuasive, and I answered yes and explained why. What matters to me is the strength of my arguments, not whether someone de-converts.
“How in the world are they going to verify your claim? Even if you send them copies of their messages, anybody can make those up.”
Projecting again? 😉
Sure I could, but that’s a LOT of messages and some of them are quite long and detailed. But more importantly, I have their user names which you can use to ask those people yourself.
“Your “trophies” don’t prove anything. Just a simple claim that you’ve “converted” a significant number of Christians to agnosticism or atheism is something most people wouldn’t dispute given the dearth of education and apologetics across the Christian spectrum.”
I agree, they don’t prove anything. But I only mentioned them because I was specifically ASKED. You’re the one who’s calling them trophies, not me. But if the claims behind Christianity were true, you’d think evangelism would be much easier, self-evident and effective than it is. Yet I’ve never met a Christian evangelist who has successfully converted anyone (not counting “rice Christians” or poaching from other Christian denominations).
“The fact that you tally the results shows a belt-notching mentality.”
Wrong again. I keep them as a reminder that my work has a positive impact on society. My grandmother used to keep all the letters I sent her. Would you consider that “belt-notching mentality” too?
“Besides, what does it matter whether a so-called Christian states that your arguments wouldn’t convince “real” Christians?”
Ah, so now you’re trying the “No True Scotsman” fallacy? Let me guess…out of all the tens of thousands of conflicting Christian denominations, you found the “One True Christianity”(TM) and everyone else is wrong. Right? 😉 It’s fascinating how EVERY Christian I talk to thinks he’s a “real” Christian and most of the others aren’t.
“I told you repeatedly in the linked debate that I would have addressed the matter if you hadn’t dug in your heels over your stupid “logical problem of evil” argument.”
Well, the question I’m posing is whether those biblical passages I provided are true or whether free will exists, since they are mutually incompatible. But since you keep evading the question, I’m guessing that’s your way of admitting you don’t have an answer. Thanks, that’s all I wanted to know.
And don’t forget remind me again in your response not to let me goad you into another long debate. 😉
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May 22, 2022 at 3:17 pm
I am perfectly content to let the videos speak for themselves. One doesn’t have to be overtly cruel when one knows that one’s opponents will look foolish. There wasn’t any “nuance” whatsoever. That’s another example of how a dishonest person operates. You knew in advance that they’d look foolish, so you turned on the charm and plunged in the knife while they squirmed in confusion.
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May 23, 2022 at 8:08 am
“it’s not lying because that’s what your actions prove you are doing even though you deny it —- that’s because you have a reprobate mind and that’s what ALL reprobates do”
Please, enough with the childish accusations. I don’t call you stupid for believing in something that cannot be confirmed with demonstrable evidence, so please restrain from resorting to ad hominem fallacies. C
“by inventing a silly scenario that isnt binary and then say this proves God false when i gave another possibility to your scenario that shows God is not false.”
First, I make no such claim. I’m saying God cannot exist AS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE, not that he doesn’t exist. You do not seem to recognize that there is a huge difference in those two positions.
Second, you haven’t provided any way to reconcile the biblical passages that say God plans everything, including our very steps, with the claim that free will exists. All I’ve seen from you is an assertion-based defense of free will, without offering any plausible reconciliation with the aforementioned scripture.
“but you play silly games and say that’s not what im doing that would be illogical ………. because it’s not God im giving evidence that shows He doesnt exist —- it’s the God of the bible or the God i say is God.”
Again, I’m not claiming a god or gods don’t exist, only that there are contradictions in the Bible that don’t support your position.
“if you were logical and reasonable youd admit it’s logical and reasonable to believe in a 1st cause we call God. and it’s impossible to disprove that 1st cause is the God of the bible. because the only other plausible choice is the 1st cause is not a personal God.”
And if you were logical and reasonable you’d realize I’ve AGREED that it is impossible to disprove the existence of a god or gods and thus I have made no attempt to do so.
As for a first cause, I am content to acknowledge that nobody knows what that first cause is. Every religion has its own explanation, and while they cannot all be right, they can all be wrong. What matters to me is evidence, and the best scientific evidence we have comes from quantum mechanics, which strongly suggests our universe is the result of a zero-sum energy quantum fluctuation, and that there is likely up to an infinite number of universes that exist because of that. That is what the math suggests, but that is NOT sufficient evidence to claim that is the correct answer. Still, it’s more than any religion has, which is why it is not logical and reasonable to believe in a “personal” God. Still, whatever floats your boat is fine with me.
“and for the rest of your nonsense ive already proved you are wrong —- when you provide evidence that hasnt been disproven here or by our other apologetics i’ll correct you.”
When you actually prove any claim I’ve made wrong, that’ll be a first. I eagerly await your plausible reconciliation between the existence of free will and what the Bible says about God planning everything.
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May 23, 2022 at 8:34 am
derekmathias ………. lol ……….. wrong again oh delusional one —- it’s you being childish. see this is what’s so hilarious about you reprobates — im mirroring your behavior. even if i disagreed with Naz, Frank, Elaine, TR or other people of good will i wouldnt behave like you do to them.
lol ………. you havent proven anything i said wrong except for in your delusional mind —- after all of your silly comments when you finally state your argument against our position on this topic …………. i destroyed it because i gave another option that’s possible that allows for God to know the future w/o making us follow a script.
lol ………. like all reprobates the rest of your post is BS and until you give evidence why my alternative scenario of your main argument is impossible i’ll just continue to lmao at your stupidity.
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May 23, 2022 at 8:42 am
“I am perfectly content to let the videos speak for themselves. One doesn’t have to be overtly cruel when one knows that one’s opponents will look foolish.”
Sorry, but no. You accused me of bullying. A bully is someone who “hurts or frightens someone else, often over a period of time, and often forcing them to do something that they do not want to do” (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bully). These Mormons and JWs were trained to proselytize and they came to my house prepared to convert me. Not only did I not hurt, frighten, threaten or force them to do anything, I was quite friendly to them the whole time as I GENTLY called their beliefs into question. What, it’s okay for THEM to try to convert me to their beliefs in my own home, but it’s not reasonable for ME to challenge their beliefs? Yeah, no.
“There wasn’t any “nuance” whatsoever. That’s another example of how a dishonest person operates. You knew in advance that they’d look foolish, so you turned on the charm and plunged in the knife while they squirmed in confusion.”
I pointed out things they didn’t realize about their own scripture. That’s not dishonesty, it’s the opposite. They were “turning on the charm” to persuade me, and so I did the exact same thing in return.
Yes, I was pretty sure they would look foolish because the Bible is full of problems that challenge their beliefs, but the alternative would be that I would learn something new—and I love learning, so it would be a win-win for me no matter what. And just as you have looked foolish by resorting to accusations when you can’t reconcile the contradictions I’ve provided, that’s on you, not me. If a naive atheist approached you and made a lousy argument for atheism, I’m pretty sure you would argue against his claim…and that you would probably have fun doing it. At least there would be nothing wrong if you did enjoy it, and that atheist would deserve what he got. Arguing with someone who falsely thinks he has a better position than you is not bullying. It’s just how arguments sometimes work out.
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May 23, 2022 at 8:49 am
These notifications keep coming to my inbox and all I see are derek mathias’s long boring rants that are a complete waste of time to read.
People like Derek cannot be reasoned with……Derek has a seared conscience…..people like him will be first in line for the chip-mark of the beast.
I’m not trying to be bossy by telling you good men not to dialogue with him, but I do want to say that even the Bible says that you cannot reason with a FOOL and that is what Derek has proved himself to be.
Derek really needs to find another hobby……..something productive, IF he is capable of being productive, though I highly doubt it.
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May 23, 2022 at 8:57 am
“i destroyed it because i gave another option that’s possible that allows for God to know the future w/o making us follow a script.”
You can’t destroy an argument when you resort to a straw man fallacy. You are arguing against a claim that I’m not even making and you still haven’t grasped that.
And you haven’t reconciled ANYTHING. All you’ve done is claim a defense for free will existing…but, once again, I’m not saying free will doesn’t exist. I’m saying that the Bible says God plans EVERYTHING. So if free will exists, as you keep claiming, then the Bible is making a false claim when it says God plans everything, right? It’s one or the other, and you’ve clearly chosen free will over what the Bible says about God’s plans.
It seems that Scalia would say I’m bullying you because I know that I’m making you look foolish. But you’re the one who keeps trying to use fallacious reasoning instead of addressing the actual argument. You could have simply said something like, “I don’t know how to reconcile that, but I trust God has a good explanation for the apparent contradiction,” or the like, and that would have been that.
But instead you keep trying to argue a different argument, either to avoid cognitive dissonance or simply because you don’t like the idea of an atheist drawing attention to an apparent contradiction in the Bible. And that’s your problem, not mine.
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May 23, 2022 at 9:06 am
“People like Derek cannot be reasoned with”
On the contrary, none of you have tried to reason with me by even trying to reconcile the contradiction I’ve pointed out. Provide a reconciliation that makes sense and you can convince me.
“I’m not trying to be bossy by telling you good men not to dialogue with him, but I do want to say that even the Bible says that you cannot reason with a FOOL and that is what Derek has proved himself to be.”
The Bible also says this:
Matthew 5:42 “Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”
Well, I’m the one asking you to lend me your answer. Or do you ignore the passages you find inconvenient?
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May 23, 2022 at 11:05 am
derekmathias ……… lol ……. of course we tried by you are delusional. see youve never disproven any of our key points except come up with a silly made up false binary argument saying there’s only 2 choices/scenarios for God to create —- while i gave a 3rd which you havent disproven which proves you are nuttier than my Christmas fruit cake.
lol ……….. im a truth seeker and people like you are lie protectors. numerous times in the past, or even now on a topic i havent thoroughly studied, another gives evidence im wrong or cant answer at that time. then i go do some research and if he or she was right and i was wrong i change my position. see people like you wont even agree on a fact, any fact we present because you nut cases only want to win an argument to protect your delusion.
lol ……….. but we did give you an answer and you ignored it and kept spewing your stupidity. when i showed you that you were misinterpreting those bible verses you said proved we never had free will then you switched to your silly binary scenario and when i proved there was another scenario nothing from you but more BS.
ALL people like you are reprobates, youve proven that over and over here. see you cant imagine you are wrong because you know there is no God or 1st cause —– how can i say that ??? easy because if you were logical and reasonable you’d say ………. based on our scientific laws, matter can not be created or destroyed, 1 of the plausible scenarios is —- if the universe always existed and will always exist. that means it’s possible God, what we say is the 1st cause, could have always existed and always will exist. again you hiding your silliness by saying …… im just proving the God of the bible doesnt exist is laughable. not only because you cant see your hypocrisy but smarter people than you have tried and failed. we have apologetics proving there arent any contradictory statements in the bible other than some minor translation/copying errors.
see like i told others here that behave like you ………..
1. give clear evidence why God cant know the future w/o making it happen —- you havent done that here & no one from your side has done that ever because it’s impossible.
2. state your position clearly and concisely, like TR did, with your best argument why we are wrong and you are correct. since you are delusional you dont notice but people like you are always very vague and spew a whole bunch of BS, intentional or not, to make it harder for us to pin you down.
3. when we give evidence that disproves your argument —- like i did by giving another scenario that allows God to create our world and He can know the future while we have free will address it. you reprobates never do that — and if you did i’d have an argument why you are still wrong.
lol ………. the if A is true than B is wrong argument doesnt work if there’s also a C, or even D, E, ………..
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May 23, 2022 at 4:00 pm
It looks like Derek wants to keep this going as long as his lying fingers can type. I was content to give him the last word on most matters, but that’s apparently not enough for him. Well, okay, if that’s what he wants…
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May 23, 2022 at 4:46 pm
Bro Scalia, just let Derek have his last word. All it is, is his godless opinion anyway that nobody cares about.
Just imagine his last word going into the toilet and then flush it away into the sewer. Besides, his argument is with God, not us…….and God always wins.
Derek is a time waster and he & people like him are obsessed and they get their jollies by wasting people’s time over topics they object to.
He’s like a pet hamster running in a wheel with his endless rants and not going anywhere.
As long as well-meaning people keep replying to his foolishness, he wins by wasting their time.
Everybody tried to help him by sharing the truth & beauty of God’s word, but he continually rejected it with his arrogant attitude.
One day Derek will stand before God, and in that day Derek will learn the true meaning of regret & sorrow. (sad to say)
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May 23, 2022 at 10:36 pm
Sister Elaine, it’s rather interesting that you’re giving me the same advice that I gave you (and it is good advice). For good faith argumentative points, I’m very happy to let any interlocutor have the last word (they’re normally just being repetitive anyway). I would only consider replying if a new argument were raised. In Derek’s case, he is being deliberately dishonest. He’s lying, and he knows that he’s lying, so I don’t mind rubbing his nose in it. That said, I’ll take a few and consider what you said.
In Christ.
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May 24, 2022 at 6:10 am
Bro Scalia, you sure did give me that same advice and it finally sank in when I realized that Derek was just wasting my time.
The fact is, he is deliberately & constantly taking scriptures out of context and when somebody is doing that, it is impossible to reason with them….at least it is for me.
If he were sincerely trying to figure out the scriptures and wanting to know the mind of God, then it’s worth the time to dialogue with him, but I believe he is doing quite the opposite.
If you feel led to continue talking with him, then please do….maybe there is hope for him and I do hope there is.😊
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May 31, 2022 at 8:46 am
So…none of you can explain how free will is compatible with the passages I’ve provided for you from the Bible. But instead of simply admitting that and moving on, you resort to accusing me of being a reprobate, a liar, and taking scripture out of context. Not that any of that is true, but it’s surprising that all of you seem to think that childish name-calling somehow suffices for a response. Well, sorry, but an ad hominem attack is an invalid argument. Since you keep doubling down on this fallacy, it appears you aren’t aware of what it means and don’t understand why it only makes you appear defensive, uninformed and petty. So let me provide you with the definition:
“Ad Hominem (Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone’s argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.” https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html
I’ve tried to keep it civil here, but apparently that’s not enough for you to respond in kind. So unless anyone can actually respond to the question, I’ll take your silence on the matter as an admission you have no rational response to the contradiction I’ve presented. From your POV, it’s a shame, really, since this was an opportunity for you to debunk my argument and thus ensure I wouldn’t use it in future debates and videos to influence believers. Instead, your responses have only strengthened the rationale to do so. So be it.
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June 7, 2022 at 8:53 pm
derekmathias, lol ……….. calling you a delusional fool is a statement of fact not an ad hominem attack.
lol ……… but i did show the bible says we have free will and i gave another possible creation showing your binary question is not only bs but loaded.
lol ……….. so which is it oh delusional one —- the bible says we dont have free will OR your question about creation proves God wouldnt create a world with free will OR both ? because i showed the bible says we have free will & i gave another scenario which shows God could create a world with free will.
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